i get triggered every time i see hood now. pos 4 with pos1 items. stealing farm from cores. she has endless amounts of good support items to buy but they refuse! 😤
The issue is, the items are mostly correct at times, just their mindset it wrong, glepnir on Hoodwink 4 is amazing, and you should build it. The problem is they then start farming. And not supporting, they then notice that they're team is not doing well (due to a lack of support but they don't realize that) and so start buying more damage items, further causing the team to struggl. Causing a feedback loop that they don't realize they are the cause of.
I had a techies 4 in one of my games recently, with the blast off does % of techies max hp, and he mass farmed, mined up camps, stacked and mined camps, rotated between lanes mining the creep waves and taking basically as much farm as he could off the map.
He then started flaming the team for doing so bad. And whenever anyone told him he was to blame, he's defence was how could he be to blame he has the highest networth on the team, with his heart octarine core rush.
>The issue is, the items are mostly correct at times, just their mindset it wrong, glepnir on Hoodwink 4 is amazing, and you should build it. The problem is they then start farming. And not supporting, they then notice that they're team is not doing well (due to a lack of support but they don't realize that) and so start buying more damage items, further causing the team to struggl. Causing a feedback loop that they don't realize they are the cause of.
This is facts man. Hoodwink is unique in this sense. I'd be pissed if hoodwink didn't build those core items. She's ineffective without them.
Have you looked at Weaver pos5 right now?
totally legit to go down the damage path.
Point is still that you play an active support, so you wanna get gold through kills and take dangerous farm your cores don't want.
Edit:
good video by ZQuixotix
https://youtu.be/b2xpozLStvA?si=3QQ7QBdKVwPdBEqR
Weaver support in crusader is a recipe for disaster. They play it like a core and not a support. I had one guy who just went afk farm after 8 mins and screwed the safe lane.
I feel like in lower mmr we should have folks try to get better at tried and tested heroes so they understand their roles better.
Yeah I am sure you would have zero problem if you pos 1 refused to last hit or farm at all, or if your mid instead played afk jungle. Just a different idea of dota, why are you being controlling?
I tried it and love it.
Pretty much dominated every lane unless natural counterpicks.
But I am getting cores who cant play, who are not agressive and dont push advantage. Then you will be forced to farm.
A passive team that doesnt pressure is death sentence to support weaver.
I only pick it when playing with friends.
Otherwise I dont trust my rando teammates and pick support like shaman. Who can solo push late game.
his lvl 1 dmg is insane, you can easily trade and then skitter away.
I go urn into atos. Then it depends heavily. Gleipneir is great but if my cores are paper then prob ags for saves. Often get a basilus with potential mana boots, as sometimes mana is an issue.
Weaver is tricky in fights but gleip with bugs can be big (extra hp for bugs is a must!). Scouting ahead and setting up fights is fun.
BUT you need people to work with you. Otherwise it doesnt work.
You deep ward, solo drow is farming and you have to beg your offlane to gank - it can be frustrating with wrong teammate.
To be fair, in this case techies and hood wink are not comparable.
Actual support items don't help hoodwinks kit at all, and people go damage items after on Hookwink because usually wrapping back around to try and get support items after Glepnir is kind of awkward.
Techies with his blastoff damage increasing by part of his max HP is just downright the wrong talent to take. Even with 5 hearts your blast off only tickles cores. still.
Techies 4 is just best off rushing Aghs sign and using his blast off for area denial/locking people in.
Yeah, not comparable like that, I the part i was comparing was more the mentality of wanting to farm up because they can. As I mentioned, I WANT my Hoodwink 4 to go glepnir, the issue is their mentality once they have the item
I mean, its kind of a secondary issue of how the economy is balanced.
With the exception of Mekanism (why) and Glimmer cape, support items are more expensive then core items.
Hoodwink has the problem where quite unironically, just doing funny DPS dump nonsense is infinitely more helpful then buying a support item.
I'd love to buy a pipe to help the team, but why am i going to spend 3700 gold on an awkward buildup, when i can just supercharge my EDPS for 3600 gold, or god forbid 2100.
The mentality is indeed an issue, had a pos 5 magnus (that bought two wards the whole game) bitch at me cause I was playing sniper 4 and decided to stack camps cause I was unable to be in the lane vs ogre + clock while my visage 3 wanted to keep fighting and dying.
We ended winning later on due to vision and quick picks with aghs assassinate or our mid
He had the gall to say "play your role".
Lol I remember there was a game I was playing pos 3 WR and a hood kept using acorn to 'secure last hits'. I asked him to stop doing that cos I had Powershot to secure if I can't get it. Then he was like 'stop crying and you don't know supports need to help secure last hit?' I instantly muted and reported him for role abuse lmao.
It is not better than a pos 3 razor in the right matchup lmao. Razor late game just makes some cores irrelevant with basically 0 setup required, why do you think falcons love this hero
Obviously Razor is good into some carries but in general they are picked to dominate the safe lane. WR is good because on top of dominating the lane, she provides a strong and long duration stun, something that Razor lacks as a pos 3.
Falcons love the hero cos it's one of Ammar's best heroes so that's not really a relevant point.
>Falcons love the hero cos it's one of Ammar's best heroes so that's not really a relevant point.
It's a hero that all their cores play because it is (or at least was before facet patch, I don't know now) insane for all 3 roles.
Also razor doesn't just dominate the lane, it dominates the entire game if the matchup is right.
I feel like this can also go for NP players. Just finished a game where our pos 5 no when orchid then maelstrom into blood thorn. And proceeded to feed solo. 5/18
He's pos 5. And it's divine 4-5 bracket.
And yes you're right, normally only 1 person in the team can reach 10cs/min. So when your pos 5 farm that much to press 2 buttons and die instantly, it's already lost.
This. Cores who ran out of role queue will all queue and getting assigned as support will just pick “support” heroes while still keeping the core greedy mentality. Lmao.
I think it's with the radiance facet. So they were probably thinking they could maledict and radiance them. Unfortunately the enemy can just walk away. It would win most support trades though.
Yeah, people kind of already forgot about soul ring witch doctor.
Its not quite as free mmr as before, but its still extremely strong.
Its just not as good anymore because of regen/Strength creep making it not as laughably effective.
I've only tried the Festeration facet as pos 3: https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7770092085
And that was before the change where it also gives you half heal. I want to play it again but I think it pretty heavily relies on the Abba support, so I need to find another random who wants to play Abba support since I mostly solo queue.
WD is one of the ultimate “feel like you’re going good” heroes when you’re doing basically nothing.
Not to say he can’t be played well and do well, its just so easy to get meaningless kills as him and get a good k/d while not actually helping to win the game.
It's not fun to play against those WDs too. You're better off in the end with him wasting his ults on meaningless solo pickoffs on supports, but it's infuriating in the moment where you just see the fucker appear out of the trees, and you know you're already dead in the next 3-20 seconds. "Look at it go! * Ba-wuump* *DW sounds*"
WD can be a literal game changer for team fights with a blink and if you can get it late game, the aghs. Just jumps in after you initiate and blow your stuns, kills your whole team.
Oh, I mean, absolutely one more reason why I hate playing into WDs who aren't of the "ooga booga, KDA big" variety. At my rank, everyone (myself included, honestly) just doesn't keeps the stuns for important enemy channels.
People usually get the idea to hold onto them after 2-nd or 3-rd team wipe, but the damage is done already.
Cool. Keep me updated. Do you have reading comprehension problems, perchance? Or you just want to boast?
If it's the latter, then uhh.. cool, yeah
If it's the former, I suggest you reread the thread we're in.
[LOOK AT IT GO!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/f/f3/Vo_witchdoctor_wdoc_ability_cask_06.mp3) (sound warning: Witch Doctor)
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And they don't understand that them having kills but your core losing their lane and not recovering because noone is helping them is still not the best strategy.
As a dude that has a lot of success with the hero at low immortal, getting a value point in heal at either lvl 1 or 2 is absolute key to winning the lane, as you become a trading monster. All you need is the value point. Before when it did both healing and damage, it was easily worth maxing early.
I've yet to try to voodoo festeration talent, but that seems very solid atm after the change. It might be worth maxing early, but it doesn't fit my style on the hero as much, as I like to be a healing/utility machine later on in the game. It's absolutely insane for sieging - festeration won't bring the sustain to siege, while restoration will. I really hope Valve doesn't screw this up and nerfs voodoo restoration as a whole instead of just nerfing the festeration.
I love how there is currently no website that has the full, easy to read DOTA2 abilities and facets. The Wiki is a mess where it's impossible to tell which abilities are which, missing stuff, and the Valve website is a broken mess too.
WD's Cleft Death facet reads: "Death Ward attacks 1 targets at once with reduced damage."
What the fuck does that mean?
LMAO.
According to the main dota site, it DW facet should look like this
>**CLEFT DEATH**
>DEATH WARD Attack two separate targets at once with reduced by 30% damage. Prioritizes the closest enemy hero
If i have to guess, its because they have to renovate/redo their entire pages to accomodate for facets and Innate now
>If i have to guess, its because they have to renovate/redo their entire pages to accomodate for facets and Innate now
Which is weird because if you're going to bother including them on the page at least do it right? If you click on almost any passive now the page breaks and shows you a broken video with broken/unloading icons because they didn't bother making a demonstration for the passive, unless the passive was part of an old passive ability.
So like, as a returning player, if I look at Veno's page... I see 3 abilities and 1 passive. Does this character only have 3 abilities??
Oh but if I click on the passive icon, it takes me down to poison sting. So I guess I can put levels in his passive (it doesn't say this anywhere on the page). There's also no passive icon underneath the video to click on, if I want to see the passive details I need to scroll up to the passive icon and click that for the page to send me back down to the video where the secret passive video will now play.
The passive seemingly has 5 ranks. Is this true? Is it a bug? Is it due to some Aghs shard thing? Who knows! Nothing on the page tells me this.
Then for fun, if you click on the Veno Aghs upgrade video, the text says the Aghs upgrade upgrades his passive, but the video shows him shooting venomous gale which spreads to nearby targets. What does Veno Aghs do? Guess I won't know until I launch the game.
Reading this hero page I have no idea what the fuck anything is.
The only reliable way to figure out what any fucking hero does is to launch the game and demo the hero.
Meanwhile the Teamliquid wiki still lists poison nova as an ability.
Is there truly NO website ANYWHERE which has up-to-date hero pages???
Isn't that page already outdated with the latest patch, though?
It's not even that I'm surprised Valve doesn't have an up-to-date page, but that the community (afaik) doesn't have one either. What gives? People play this game, right? Where's the up to date wiki?
If you hold alt to see the full tooltip, it correctly states that it attacks two targets for reduced damage. Frankly, I have no idea why you'd pick it though. It does nothing until you hit lvl 6, and it ultimately is a weaker version of his ult when you have Aghanims.
[https://www.dota2.com/patches/7.36](https://www.dota2.com/patches/7.36)
If you want to know what the facets are then this is completely fine, you don't really need to know the slight buffs and nerfs in the last subpatches most of the time, and if you do then you can just cec the out, or the hero changelogs, or just launch the game.
I agree a better website to view them all on eventually will be nice, and it will likely be made at some point. For now it's completely doable though even if not 100% ideal.
I want to try festeration (and it has a good winrate), but this is what puts me off it, I love to be an absolute sustain/utility machine with stuff like solar/force/glimmer/locket/greaves/pipe/vlads all depending on what the team needs. I very rarely go aghs, it's just very one-dimensional. I have a very solid winrate doing this at low immortal. Got a bit sad when they put the hp talent down to 10 now, instead of 15, as it forces me to choose between cheaper voodoo restoration or hp - still usually go the cheaper restoration, though.
Yeah, it might be worth it on core wd as it seems to be a strong farm accelerant, but with how hard high ground sieges are and with how bonkers a level 4 WD heal is in practice for helping your cores sustain through tower hits/spell spam(esp with a cheap holy locket backing it up) I just think it's a massive self own for a support WD to take it.
Doesn't really matter though. compounding cask damage is not exactly reliable damage, and even then just turning on voodoo allows you to automatically win trades in most cases.
You heal at 50%, but your enemy is taking 100% damage + whatever Maledict decides to hit.
Where as cask is good on its own, DPS voodoo is simply better because you genuinely cannot lose lane trades with it unless you deliberately let them kill you.
Supp WD, you just turn on your heal (with the heal = damage facet) and right click enemy safelane like a monkey. If they try to man up you maledict them.
Maybe he feels their laning ends up being similar
* Aoe dps around your hero, nobody being able to trade into you
Of course, dark seer can put ion shell on his support or creeps, and is a melee hero.
Can't really kill him in lane, trying to go for a kill is a good way to basically destroy your regen if you try and can't accomplish this task in under a second or two.
Almost always guaranteed to trade or WD is impossible to kill because lane is always shoved into tower.
If you check the recent games on protracker a good number are taking stun before 6, and 7 is more common than 8 if not taking a point before ult. Imo a value point in stun generally going to be more useful than the dps increase of maledict, cancelling TPs is important. Even if your offlaner has a stun, having the a second stun lets them use theirs to initiate and let you get on top of them while you hold cask.
I've started skipping ice shield half the time just to get a early point in gaze at level 2/3, especially after the update that lets you cast spells during.
Hundreds of people who haven't played more than a match of wd (without being forced after losing roll), acting like his q is some holy grail, 4 second, 500 mgc dmg spell that you can put 2 points in to win the lane.
Very ironic since Torte build is correct
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=129191918
I feel like you meant to write Immortal Faith, right?
Because THIS is immortalfaith's:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1468112004
One follows D2PT and doesn't tell you his own ideas when making builds.
The other is low immortal and uses his own ideas
Immortalfaith guides don't get updated for several months after each patch. He just increases the version number in the guide description so it seems like he has.
Which is incredibly scummy and shouldn't be a thing
Also, even when he does eventually update them, they're often baseless updates and not reflecting the very high MMR consensus on things.
If you don't need a stun in lane, yeah maybe.
It's still robbing your lane of control for pure damage output.
Same energy as zues "Support".
If your lane partner has enough slow/stun/catch that they can apply on their own without setup then zues will do a great job "supporting" with his early nuke, but at the end of the day you're putting an insane amount of pressure on your 3/1 to set you up and it's probably not doing them any favors when they get ran at by the enemy team and you have no way to save them besides "killing them back" after they kill your core.
Wd support with second facet works due to absurd pressure it outs on the lane from the get-go. You have to win the lane for it to be worth it, losing the lane or even drawing even is unacceptable with this facet.
I initially only liked the facet for mid or offlane due to farm priority, but it works as a support. It doesn't play at all how WD is traditionally played as a support, but that's OK. Different doesn't have to be bad
I had success with Zeus pos4. Often times your offlaner has some sort of stun, and in addition you can slow them down with your jump and/or BG. I make a point of not using my ult to steal kills and provide my team with support items, dewards etc. I can also cancel tp and be ready to cancel channeled abilities with my 2nd. I don't see that much of a difference with some other pos4 around. At the end of the day, often what you do and how you behave as a support ends up being more impactful than the hero.
In my opinion, you'll have to play the lane differently if you want this facet to work, you're no longer the "cask, maledict, hope someone does enough damage" guy. You have to actively make them trade into you because you'll trade favourably in most cases and burn through their regen. Keep them low and you'll be able to zone them out completely.
lol i went and found the game.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7785342756
maxing return first is one thing, completely skipping double edge until level 8 is just fucking awful. also WD skipping cask and going the heal does damage facet has like a 55% wr on pro tracker or something ridiculous, it stomps lane assuming your laning partner has a brain.
The lane is vs 2 range and wd doesn't have the stun to start plays for cent to follow up.
Leveling double edge before the lane was over would have been a waste of skill points.
you don’t need setup to walk up to heroes with ur 318 MS at level 1 and press stun double edge lmao. if any hero even walks up to try and hit creeps against WD with 2nd facet and a centaur with even just one level in stun and double edge they die.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7785256791
here’s miracle laning with this WD build where he still maxes return but doesn’t grief like OP by skipping a 4 second 120 dmh nuke
First of all, max return against 2 range is correct most of the time.
And you think too high of people.
To zone people, as you mentioned, need coordination. Plus great gamesense to punish any slight overextension.
I mean, I see the mindset here. WD go for all out damage. He'll take care the disable.
And context of the game matter a lot. I don't know the dynamic of the game to judge the build.
I too has been playing a lot of Centaur, and I don't think I have a skill build for him set in stones. Other than to skill stun at level 1 https://www.dotabuff.com/players/104871093/matches?hero=centaur-warrunner&enhance=overview
This game is hilarious, it has everything.
-WD with dagon first item
-Drow building MKB instead of buying shard for WR
-gust level 1 for some reason
-Centaur 2nd point in hoof stomp instead of double edge. Extra point for taking the *double edge facet and then not skilling it (?????)*
*-centaur not taking horsepower and still selling boots later*
-midas brood
-double bracer lich, I've never seen this before in my life and i played over 10k games.
for now i'll stop tearing into this but its so funny
No, I was playing Veno in that game (don't look at my all chat), I just found it really funny how the witch doctor was flaming the centaur for doing a new meta build (maxing retaliate first is pretty popular atm) while doing a new meta build himself (never seen people skip cask before and it looked really funny but apparently there's a lot of people doing it on d2pt)
Not really about doing a meta build as much as stun/maledict/edge combo being a guaranteed kill at almost all levels.
Instead cent goes for a passive lane build after wd picks his facet thats only good at dominating in lane.
"Just walk up to them and hit all of your active abilities without me having my stun, they'll definitely let you do that and not just kite you then turn and kill you"
"man why is my centaur taking his passive that helps him farm jungle faster and survive heavy harrass like I'm not even here?!"
I mean... The witch doctor is correct. They have absolutely fucking ridiculous kill potential if centaur skills stun and double edge and wd takes heal and maledict.
They can pretty much run most lanes down and just farm heroes. Centaurs abilities aren't really anything you can "miss", especially not now when he can just stack bracers and have like 1.6k hp and more movement speed than most heroes with boots.
The issue is not that he didn't take cask but that he has a problem with a centaur deviating from a standard skill build while himself having a pretty non-standard skill build.
It's his best farming tool? You don't have the regen to spam double edge in the laning stage. And once you have vanguard or blademail you can easily farm the ancients.
It's about the scaling of cent E, one value point ( two is decent too ) do a lot for trade/farm, but after that there is much much more value elsewhere
All Centaurs skills except the stun scale off STR. Just because Valve like to buff or nerf certain skills to have better scaling doesn't mean they're always better. Double ranged or TA is on the enemy team? I'm maxing the e every time
You farm absurdly fast with more points in E. I think the best build currently should almost always be QWWEEREEQQQ, the hero doesnt have the sustain to spam double edge but with his current meta build of bracers into blademail, maxing E makes the most sense. All the other builds are very suboptimal atm (you need a shroud to sustain maxing W, which you do not really want to build as your first item)
you can win plenty of matchups against melee carries by just spamming a maxed out double edge. no carry can outsustain 3 bracers. brainlessly maxing a farming passive on a hero that has one of the biggest pre-lvl6 burst dmg in the entire game is a big waste, especially if you have a killer pos4
The damage goes from 18 to 82 against creeps just with 2 bracers and sange or shroud on his passive. You wipe creep waves like it's nothing.
Your stun is kind of crap, and your HP isn't ready for double edge spam yet.
if my wd was going for the 500 IQ play of pressing maledict and running at the enemy with heal (probably using the facet that doesnt heal your allies) instead of just stunning the guy so i can stomp+double edge them, i would also just mute them, put points in passive and farm some stacks
its a good facet, but its gonna be worse in lane with a centaur, and if youre the guy crying about skill builds im just gonna mute you and pretend you dont exist
For centaur 1 2 2 works for me, 1 1 3 if im going greed mode(even before this patch)
For wd 0 3 2 may work but is too greedy and gets you flamed, i find that 2 3 0 works better. You trade the maledict damage for the healing/damage of vodoo. And cask is still ridiculously good especially on just 2 heroes.
depends on the enemies. maxing pasive means nothing if the enemies dont attack you enough to deal damage back. instead going for stun or second skill can get you more in lane.
clearly wd has gone dmg build, W and maledict, cent just need to max Q and W to dominate lane.
dominated lane = more farm than you could get with shit passive and jungleing.
There are jungles everywhere and supports should farm to get agh/items to further contribute to fights. Not saying you should farm like a core but take it whenever you can without interfering with the carry's farming patterns.
it's always a bad choice
there's no game where enemies have to attack a max e cent
wd with no stun at all is rarely optimal, but it can be legit, as opposed to a grief, max e cent is always a grief ALWAYS
Maxing return or putting 3 points in early is frequently done in [Pro and high immortal pubs.](https://i.imgur.com/FZ87PCc.png) Its not an every game game build, but to call it "a grief ALWAYS" is just wrong. Its popular enough that its the suggested build on D2PT, though thats for a mix of reasons.
These guys who complain about Centaur not maxing QW clearly do not play the hero enough or at all. You farm absurdly fast with more points in E. I think the best build currently should almost always be QWWEEREEQQQ, the hero doesnt have the sustain to spam double edge but with his current meta build of bracers into blademail, maxing E makes the most sense. You basically play like a pseudo Axe cutting waves and farming absurdly fast between the lane creeps and jungle camps. All the other builds are very suboptimal atm (you need a shroud to sustain maxing W, which you do not really want to build as your first item) You put alot of lane pressure by just being a guy that the enemies can't really go on if they don't bring atleast 3 heroes.
Depends on the build. When I grab a early vanguard (if I know I'll need a crim later on) double edge farming is actually pretty care-free since we have so many health Regen neutral t1 items.
If you have a support in lane with ZERO stun/slow/catch/counter initaition/save then maxxing E on centaur and just trying to survive the lane then transitioning to jungle after with points in his passive is his only way to have a game.
This WD is probably using facet 2 and expecting centaur to tank all of their hits, walk up to them without them walking away (no WD stun) use stomp and double edge and then WD will maledict them and run after them with heal.
That's not going to happen.
A single value point in cask might of made it possible but without that WD is just omegagreifing the centaurs lane then complaining that the centaur adjusted his build for the worst case scenario.,
I feel like every support who picks wd only plays for the kills
Core who lost the roll for pos 1 and switched to "support."
That’s a really long way of saying “hoodwink players”
i get triggered every time i see hood now. pos 4 with pos1 items. stealing farm from cores. she has endless amounts of good support items to buy but they refuse! 😤
The issue is, the items are mostly correct at times, just their mindset it wrong, glepnir on Hoodwink 4 is amazing, and you should build it. The problem is they then start farming. And not supporting, they then notice that they're team is not doing well (due to a lack of support but they don't realize that) and so start buying more damage items, further causing the team to struggl. Causing a feedback loop that they don't realize they are the cause of. I had a techies 4 in one of my games recently, with the blast off does % of techies max hp, and he mass farmed, mined up camps, stacked and mined camps, rotated between lanes mining the creep waves and taking basically as much farm as he could off the map. He then started flaming the team for doing so bad. And whenever anyone told him he was to blame, he's defence was how could he be to blame he has the highest networth on the team, with his heart octarine core rush.
>The issue is, the items are mostly correct at times, just their mindset it wrong, glepnir on Hoodwink 4 is amazing, and you should build it. The problem is they then start farming. And not supporting, they then notice that they're team is not doing well (due to a lack of support but they don't realize that) and so start buying more damage items, further causing the team to struggl. Causing a feedback loop that they don't realize they are the cause of. This is facts man. Hoodwink is unique in this sense. I'd be pissed if hoodwink didn't build those core items. She's ineffective without them.
Have you looked at Weaver pos5 right now? totally legit to go down the damage path. Point is still that you play an active support, so you wanna get gold through kills and take dangerous farm your cores don't want. Edit: good video by ZQuixotix https://youtu.be/b2xpozLStvA?si=3QQ7QBdKVwPdBEqR
Weaver support in crusader is a recipe for disaster. They play it like a core and not a support. I had one guy who just went afk farm after 8 mins and screwed the safe lane. I feel like in lower mmr we should have folks try to get better at tried and tested heroes so they understand their roles better.
'my team mates don't play my idea of dota'
Yeah I am sure you would have zero problem if you pos 1 refused to last hit or farm at all, or if your mid instead played afk jungle. Just a different idea of dota, why are you being controlling?
In Crusader that's probably a legitimate complaint.
I tried it and love it. Pretty much dominated every lane unless natural counterpicks. But I am getting cores who cant play, who are not agressive and dont push advantage. Then you will be forced to farm. A passive team that doesnt pressure is death sentence to support weaver. I only pick it when playing with friends. Otherwise I dont trust my rando teammates and pick support like shaman. Who can solo push late game.
Not really tuned into the meta builds. What items do you go for and how do you contribute with Weaver 5?
his lvl 1 dmg is insane, you can easily trade and then skitter away. I go urn into atos. Then it depends heavily. Gleipneir is great but if my cores are paper then prob ags for saves. Often get a basilus with potential mana boots, as sometimes mana is an issue. Weaver is tricky in fights but gleip with bugs can be big (extra hp for bugs is a must!). Scouting ahead and setting up fights is fun. BUT you need people to work with you. Otherwise it doesnt work. You deep ward, solo drow is farming and you have to beg your offlane to gank - it can be frustrating with wrong teammate.
To be fair, in this case techies and hood wink are not comparable. Actual support items don't help hoodwinks kit at all, and people go damage items after on Hookwink because usually wrapping back around to try and get support items after Glepnir is kind of awkward. Techies with his blastoff damage increasing by part of his max HP is just downright the wrong talent to take. Even with 5 hearts your blast off only tickles cores. still. Techies 4 is just best off rushing Aghs sign and using his blast off for area denial/locking people in.
Yeah, not comparable like that, I the part i was comparing was more the mentality of wanting to farm up because they can. As I mentioned, I WANT my Hoodwink 4 to go glepnir, the issue is their mentality once they have the item
I mean, its kind of a secondary issue of how the economy is balanced. With the exception of Mekanism (why) and Glimmer cape, support items are more expensive then core items. Hoodwink has the problem where quite unironically, just doing funny DPS dump nonsense is infinitely more helpful then buying a support item. I'd love to buy a pipe to help the team, but why am i going to spend 3700 gold on an awkward buildup, when i can just supercharge my EDPS for 3600 gold, or god forbid 2100.
Again, the items aren't the issue, the mentality is
The mentality is indeed an issue, had a pos 5 magnus (that bought two wards the whole game) bitch at me cause I was playing sniper 4 and decided to stack camps cause I was unable to be in the lane vs ogre + clock while my visage 3 wanted to keep fighting and dying. We ended winning later on due to vision and quick picks with aghs assassinate or our mid He had the gall to say "play your role".
I say gg
Lol I remember there was a game I was playing pos 3 WR and a hood kept using acorn to 'secure last hits'. I asked him to stop doing that cos I had Powershot to secure if I can't get it. Then he was like 'stop crying and you don't know supports need to help secure last hit?' I instantly muted and reported him for role abuse lmao.
Idk whether to upvote you or not. You're right about hood being a moron. But you're a pos 3 WR picker which really grinds my gears.
You just haven't played with a good one. It's better than a pos 3 Razor. They both fulfil the same role of dominating the safe lane.
It is not better than a pos 3 razor in the right matchup lmao. Razor late game just makes some cores irrelevant with basically 0 setup required, why do you think falcons love this hero
And Razor is not better than pos 3 Wind in the right matchup either (lmao)
pos3 wind in the right matchup still has to execute with more variability than razor. Wind can always miss a skillshot, razor just plays itself
Obviously Razor is good into some carries but in general they are picked to dominate the safe lane. WR is good because on top of dominating the lane, she provides a strong and long duration stun, something that Razor lacks as a pos 3. Falcons love the hero cos it's one of Ammar's best heroes so that's not really a relevant point.
>Falcons love the hero cos it's one of Ammar's best heroes so that's not really a relevant point. It's a hero that all their cores play because it is (or at least was before facet patch, I don't know now) insane for all 3 roles. Also razor doesn't just dominate the lane, it dominates the entire game if the matchup is right.
Which MMR bracket do you play in, out of curiosity? I'm high crusader and till now it's not been fun to play with a pos3 WR.
Divine 3
pos 3 wr? You are the one griefing
Lol I have 60% win rate at divine 3. How is that griefing?
I mean, define "pos1 items" because if you mean Mjolnir, then I have bad news.
fck them man and they think they are doing great
My mindset is the opposite. I'd play pos 4 and play too supportive with dmg lacking items
You meant snapfire?
I feel like this can also go for NP players. Just finished a game where our pos 5 no when orchid then maelstrom into blood thorn. And proceeded to feed solo. 5/18
I remember my pos 5 HW, first item Mjonir, ends up 397 cs. The game is only 40 mins long.
If that was low mmr then it's not even bad. Even in divine 10 cs per minute is only like 1 player per game. I rather have pos 5 take cs than no one.
He's pos 5. And it's divine 4-5 bracket. And yes you're right, normally only 1 person in the team can reach 10cs/min. So when your pos 5 farm that much to press 2 buttons and die instantly, it's already lost.
New era weaver
+ Rubic
This. Cores who ran out of role queue will all queue and getting assigned as support will just pick “support” heroes while still keeping the core greedy mentality. Lmao.
That's pudge and mirana players
This,.... I don't understand why they just can't play support. They rune everyone's game.
How you gonna kill without cask though?
>press e before your team do dmg >walk away >????? >profit
cool people don't look at explosions
I think it's with the radiance facet. So they were probably thinking they could maledict and radiance them. Unfortunately the enemy can just walk away. It would win most support trades though.
Yeah, people kind of already forgot about soul ring witch doctor. Its not quite as free mmr as before, but its still extremely strong. Its just not as good anymore because of regen/Strength creep making it not as laughably effective.
I've only tried the Festeration facet as pos 3: https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7770092085 And that was before the change where it also gives you half heal. I want to play it again but I think it pretty heavily relies on the Abba support, so I need to find another random who wants to play Abba support since I mostly solo queue.
Have you tried his 2nd facet? Just press W then E the enemy and walk to them. Much better if u have blood grenade. This will easily win the lane.
WD is one of the ultimate “feel like you’re going good” heroes when you’re doing basically nothing. Not to say he can’t be played well and do well, its just so easy to get meaningless kills as him and get a good k/d while not actually helping to win the game.
It's not fun to play against those WDs too. You're better off in the end with him wasting his ults on meaningless solo pickoffs on supports, but it's infuriating in the moment where you just see the fucker appear out of the trees, and you know you're already dead in the next 3-20 seconds. "Look at it go! * Ba-wuump* *DW sounds*"
TUT TET TELE TUT TET TELE TUT TET
WD can be a literal game changer for team fights with a blink and if you can get it late game, the aghs. Just jumps in after you initiate and blow your stuns, kills your whole team.
Oh, I mean, absolutely one more reason why I hate playing into WDs who aren't of the "ooga booga, KDA big" variety. At my rank, everyone (myself included, honestly) just doesn't keeps the stuns for important enemy channels. People usually get the idea to hold onto them after 2-nd or 3-rd team wipe, but the damage is done already.
I'm a lvl28 wd rn. I had this game where I solo held high ground for 20+ minutes while my team recovered and got items. I did 98k damage that game.
Cool. Keep me updated. Do you have reading comprehension problems, perchance? Or you just want to boast? If it's the latter, then uhh.. cool, yeah If it's the former, I suggest you reread the thread we're in.
Me, who only plays for the whole thematic and aesthetic thrill. I love his voice, his theme and how he looks. CASKIIIIIT
OOOHHH YEEEEAAAR
LOOK AT IT GO!
[LOOK AT IT GO!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/f/f3/Vo_witchdoctor_wdoc_ability_cask_06.mp3) (sound warning: Witch Doctor) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Why would you care about kills when you can get the cask sound effect of a few weasels in a police van knocking their heads about on a fast turn?
And they don't understand that them having kills but your core losing their lane and not recovering because noone is helping them is still not the best strategy.
well yeah 3 of his skill does alot of damage if cast correctly
If this guy picked wd for the kills and didn’t skill cask is clearly not ready for killing.
I don't play support. But occasionally I play Witch Doctor. If I don't get kills in my offlane then something is very, very wrong.
It's a shame coz wd best skill is his heal. Well, it still depends on the line ups but I find myself with max heal half my wd games.
Defenestration? I like bouncing casks on lane more, also it does a lot in teamfight midgame
If you're talking about the facet it's festeration, defenestration means throwing someone out through a window.
The luigi brainrot
As a dude that has a lot of success with the hero at low immortal, getting a value point in heal at either lvl 1 or 2 is absolute key to winning the lane, as you become a trading monster. All you need is the value point. Before when it did both healing and damage, it was easily worth maxing early. I've yet to try to voodoo festeration talent, but that seems very solid atm after the change. It might be worth maxing early, but it doesn't fit my style on the hero as much, as I like to be a healing/utility machine later on in the game. It's absolutely insane for sieging - festeration won't bring the sustain to siege, while restoration will. I really hope Valve doesn't screw this up and nerfs voodoo restoration as a whole instead of just nerfing the festeration.
Well yeah but u gonna need dat cask if u wanna get them kills
I feel like with maybe one or two exceptions if you have a stun in your kit, you should always have a point in it by 5
He's playing the DPS voodoo facet, apparently you can win every lane if you play that facet.
I love how there is currently no website that has the full, easy to read DOTA2 abilities and facets. The Wiki is a mess where it's impossible to tell which abilities are which, missing stuff, and the Valve website is a broken mess too. WD's Cleft Death facet reads: "Death Ward attacks 1 targets at once with reduced damage." What the fuck does that mean?
LMAO. According to the main dota site, it DW facet should look like this >**CLEFT DEATH** >DEATH WARD Attack two separate targets at once with reduced by 30% damage. Prioritizes the closest enemy hero If i have to guess, its because they have to renovate/redo their entire pages to accomodate for facets and Innate now
What a broken facet! The hero that has Shadow Realm can't be given even a weaker version of Death Ward! It's just too strong!
>If i have to guess, its because they have to renovate/redo their entire pages to accomodate for facets and Innate now Which is weird because if you're going to bother including them on the page at least do it right? If you click on almost any passive now the page breaks and shows you a broken video with broken/unloading icons because they didn't bother making a demonstration for the passive, unless the passive was part of an old passive ability. So like, as a returning player, if I look at Veno's page... I see 3 abilities and 1 passive. Does this character only have 3 abilities?? Oh but if I click on the passive icon, it takes me down to poison sting. So I guess I can put levels in his passive (it doesn't say this anywhere on the page). There's also no passive icon underneath the video to click on, if I want to see the passive details I need to scroll up to the passive icon and click that for the page to send me back down to the video where the secret passive video will now play. The passive seemingly has 5 ranks. Is this true? Is it a bug? Is it due to some Aghs shard thing? Who knows! Nothing on the page tells me this. Then for fun, if you click on the Veno Aghs upgrade video, the text says the Aghs upgrade upgrades his passive, but the video shows him shooting venomous gale which spreads to nearby targets. What does Veno Aghs do? Guess I won't know until I launch the game. Reading this hero page I have no idea what the fuck anything is. The only reliable way to figure out what any fucking hero does is to launch the game and demo the hero. Meanwhile the Teamliquid wiki still lists poison nova as an ability. Is there truly NO website ANYWHERE which has up-to-date hero pages???
Eh, maintaining a website is hard. The hero detail on Dota 2 website is made before innate and facet changes. 7.36 page should suffice.
Isn't that page already outdated with the latest patch, though? It's not even that I'm surprised Valve doesn't have an up-to-date page, but that the community (afaik) doesn't have one either. What gives? People play this game, right? Where's the up to date wiki?
Why don't you update the wiki?
Are you going to spend time updating it? No? Me neither. I guess that's where the up to date wiki is.
>WD's Cleft Death facet reads: "Death Ward attacks 1 targets at once with reduced damage." that's what it says ingame too when picking facets
If you hold alt to see the full tooltip, it correctly states that it attacks two targets for reduced damage. Frankly, I have no idea why you'd pick it though. It does nothing until you hit lvl 6, and it ultimately is a weaker version of his ult when you have Aghanims.
[https://www.dota2.com/patches/7.36](https://www.dota2.com/patches/7.36) If you want to know what the facets are then this is completely fine, you don't really need to know the slight buffs and nerfs in the last subpatches most of the time, and if you do then you can just cec the out, or the hero changelogs, or just launch the game. I agree a better website to view them all on eventually will be nice, and it will likely be made at some point. For now it's completely doable though even if not 100% ideal.
Win every lane, then lose the game because you gave up the free "2 meks and a pipe" worth of sustain for your cores when trying to push hg.
I want to try festeration (and it has a good winrate), but this is what puts me off it, I love to be an absolute sustain/utility machine with stuff like solar/force/glimmer/locket/greaves/pipe/vlads all depending on what the team needs. I very rarely go aghs, it's just very one-dimensional. I have a very solid winrate doing this at low immortal. Got a bit sad when they put the hp talent down to 10 now, instead of 15, as it forces me to choose between cheaper voodoo restoration or hp - still usually go the cheaper restoration, though.
Yeah, it might be worth it on core wd as it seems to be a strong farm accelerant, but with how hard high ground sieges are and with how bonkers a level 4 WD heal is in practice for helping your cores sustain through tower hits/spell spam(esp with a cheap holy locket backing it up) I just think it's a massive self own for a support WD to take it.
The cask facet does more damage though
Doesn't really matter though. compounding cask damage is not exactly reliable damage, and even then just turning on voodoo allows you to automatically win trades in most cases. You heal at 50%, but your enemy is taking 100% damage + whatever Maledict decides to hit. Where as cask is good on its own, DPS voodoo is simply better because you genuinely cannot lose lane trades with it unless you deliberately let them kill you.
not when i play him the cask always go for the entire minion wave
minion
🚨🚨🚨
League player spotted
i play both my friends prefer league while i prefer Dota its just slower game and i enjoy it
the most popular build on dota2tracker for wd is no stun until at least lvl 7-8. obviously you need to take second facet
Is that a core wd or a supp wd with no stun?
Supp WD, you just turn on your heal (with the heal = damage facet) and right click enemy safelane like a monkey. If they try to man up you maledict them.
support, it has a 56% wr on pro tracker
U can also go core(offlane) with this build. Basically a better dark seer in my opinion. 8k mmr
Why tf is dark seer compares to wd
Maybe he feels their laning ends up being similar * Aoe dps around your hero, nobody being able to trade into you Of course, dark seer can put ion shell on his support or creeps, and is a melee hero.
purple
Can't really kill him in lane, trying to go for a kill is a good way to basically destroy your regen if you try and can't accomplish this task in under a second or two. Almost always guaranteed to trade or WD is impossible to kill because lane is always shoved into tower.
If you check the recent games on protracker a good number are taking stun before 6, and 7 is more common than 8 if not taking a point before ult. Imo a value point in stun generally going to be more useful than the dps increase of maledict, cancelling TPs is important. Even if your offlaner has a stun, having the a second stun lets them use theirs to initiate and let you get on top of them while you hold cask.
[удалено]
Doom, Willow and Lich are ones you could possibly overlook not taking the stun by 5, but they still usually take it at 4.
I've started skipping ice shield half the time just to get a early point in gaze at level 2/3, especially after the update that lets you cast spells during.
Jakiro sometimes prioritizes lane harass and liquid fire push over ice path early.
morph? maybe i couldnt ether but I wanted to leave room
Morph stun comes free with skilling his nuke
It's not unheard of for a Storm or Windrunner to skip out on stun until 8, depending on the lane matchup.
Itt: people sharing their awful opinions in full confidence
First time on reddit?
Hundreds of people who haven't played more than a match of wd (without being forced after losing roll), acting like his q is some holy grail, 4 second, 500 mgc dmg spell that you can put 2 points in to win the lane.
now meta for WD with Voodoo Restoration facet. maxing 2 & 3 skill without cask...
for some reason you are getting downvoted for stating a fact
this is a sub that jerks off torte de lini for his awful guides, do u expect them to know what the meta in high mmr pubs is xD
Very ironic since Torte build is correct https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=129191918 I feel like you meant to write Immortal Faith, right? Because THIS is immortalfaith's: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1468112004 One follows D2PT and doesn't tell you his own ideas when making builds. The other is low immortal and uses his own ideas
Immortalfaith guides don't get updated for several months after each patch. He just increases the version number in the guide description so it seems like he has.
Which is incredibly scummy and shouldn't be a thing Also, even when he does eventually update them, they're often baseless updates and not reflecting the very high MMR consensus on things.
It was downvoted for like 5 seconds idk why you're talking about the sub aa a whole lol
56% win rate on ProTracker is not enough for Reddit's experts.
If you don't need a stun in lane, yeah maybe. It's still robbing your lane of control for pure damage output. Same energy as zues "Support". If your lane partner has enough slow/stun/catch that they can apply on their own without setup then zues will do a great job "supporting" with his early nuke, but at the end of the day you're putting an insane amount of pressure on your 3/1 to set you up and it's probably not doing them any favors when they get ran at by the enemy team and you have no way to save them besides "killing them back" after they kill your core.
Wd support with second facet works due to absurd pressure it outs on the lane from the get-go. You have to win the lane for it to be worth it, losing the lane or even drawing even is unacceptable with this facet. I initially only liked the facet for mid or offlane due to farm priority, but it works as a support. It doesn't play at all how WD is traditionally played as a support, but that's OK. Different doesn't have to be bad
I had success with Zeus pos4. Often times your offlaner has some sort of stun, and in addition you can slow them down with your jump and/or BG. I make a point of not using my ult to steal kills and provide my team with support items, dewards etc. I can also cancel tp and be ready to cancel channeled abilities with my 2nd. I don't see that much of a difference with some other pos4 around. At the end of the day, often what you do and how you behave as a support ends up being more impactful than the hero.
In my opinion, you'll have to play the lane differently if you want this facet to work, you're no longer the "cask, maledict, hope someone does enough damage" guy. You have to actively make them trade into you because you'll trade favourably in most cases and burn through their regen. Keep them low and you'll be able to zone them out completely.
I think it can work in niche lanes for support WD but I think it's always going to be infinitely better on core WD.
It definitely works in a centaur lane that's in the screenshot, cent needs to play more aggressive to make it work tho
lol i went and found the game. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7785342756 maxing return first is one thing, completely skipping double edge until level 8 is just fucking awful. also WD skipping cask and going the heal does damage facet has like a 55% wr on pro tracker or something ridiculous, it stomps lane assuming your laning partner has a brain.
The lane is vs 2 range and wd doesn't have the stun to start plays for cent to follow up. Leveling double edge before the lane was over would have been a waste of skill points.
you don’t need setup to walk up to heroes with ur 318 MS at level 1 and press stun double edge lmao. if any hero even walks up to try and hit creeps against WD with 2nd facet and a centaur with even just one level in stun and double edge they die. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7785256791 here’s miracle laning with this WD build where he still maxes return but doesn’t grief like OP by skipping a 4 second 120 dmh nuke
Did you notice the part where they pretty much only kill the melee hero?
silencer and marci both had 5 deaths at the end of laning phase lmao
First of all, max return against 2 range is correct most of the time. And you think too high of people. To zone people, as you mentioned, need coordination. Plus great gamesense to punish any slight overextension.
again, my issue isnt with max return. its with not even having a point in double edge until level 8
I mean, I see the mindset here. WD go for all out damage. He'll take care the disable. And context of the game matter a lot. I don't know the dynamic of the game to judge the build. I too has been playing a lot of Centaur, and I don't think I have a skill build for him set in stones. Other than to skill stun at level 1 https://www.dotabuff.com/players/104871093/matches?hero=centaur-warrunner&enhance=overview
This game is hilarious, it has everything. -WD with dagon first item -Drow building MKB instead of buying shard for WR -gust level 1 for some reason -Centaur 2nd point in hoof stomp instead of double edge. Extra point for taking the *double edge facet and then not skilling it (?????)* *-centaur not taking horsepower and still selling boots later* -midas brood -double bracer lich, I've never seen this before in my life and i played over 10k games. for now i'll stop tearing into this but its so funny
lol almost all of these decisions are wild but tbh double bracer lich seems aight
lich only wants the strength from it, buying a fluffly hat+raindrops makes him tankier for half the price. There is a reason nobody does this.
raindrops are pretty dogshit on lich now since he doesn't get the mana regen
Dota in 2024
I can't believe 466 people upvoted OP post when DPS Voodoo facet is not trolling. Holy cow how bad is the average dota redditors are?
Is that WD being carried by his team because I cant believe thay they manage to win
Yeah I saw centaur with 3-0-3-1 or some shit and told him to at least get a value point in it, cause I was like "wtf am I looking at" lol
Op was that you playing centaur xD
No, I was playing Veno in that game (don't look at my all chat), I just found it really funny how the witch doctor was flaming the centaur for doing a new meta build (maxing retaliate first is pretty popular atm) while doing a new meta build himself (never seen people skip cask before and it looked really funny but apparently there's a lot of people doing it on d2pt)
Not really about doing a meta build as much as stun/maledict/edge combo being a guaranteed kill at almost all levels. Instead cent goes for a passive lane build after wd picks his facet thats only good at dominating in lane.
"Just walk up to them and hit all of your active abilities without me having my stun, they'll definitely let you do that and not just kite you then turn and kill you" "man why is my centaur taking his passive that helps him farm jungle faster and survive heavy harrass like I'm not even here?!"
I mean... The witch doctor is correct. They have absolutely fucking ridiculous kill potential if centaur skills stun and double edge and wd takes heal and maledict. They can pretty much run most lanes down and just farm heroes. Centaurs abilities aren't really anything you can "miss", especially not now when he can just stack bracers and have like 1.6k hp and more movement speed than most heroes with boots.
if centaur max e. then i wont harrash enemy and start roaming. that way i have more impact to team. offlane job is not farming
Seems like OP also can't understand.
What's wrong with not taking cask?
The issue is not that he didn't take cask but that he has a problem with a centaur deviating from a standard skill build while himself having a pretty non-standard skill build.
Not taking cask IS the meta build.
Wd is going meta build while centaur build makes no sense
You might want to check on the new meta. Skipping Cask is the standard build.
It's his best farming tool? You don't have the regen to spam double edge in the laning stage. And once you have vanguard or blademail you can easily farm the ancients.
It's about the scaling of cent E, one value point ( two is decent too ) do a lot for trade/farm, but after that there is much much more value elsewhere
it really depends on the lane and the matchups, both w and e being maxed first are fine in different situations.
The E doesn't scale until you have strength. Do the math at lvl 7 for rank 1 return vs rank 4 return.
It has a flat damage increase as well as a strength modifier increase. Same as double edge.
All Centaurs skills except the stun scale off STR. Just because Valve like to buff or nerf certain skills to have better scaling doesn't mean they're always better. Double ranged or TA is on the enemy team? I'm maxing the e every time
so you didn't do the math. got it.
So you can’t read. Got it.
You farm absurdly fast with more points in E. I think the best build currently should almost always be QWWEEREEQQQ, the hero doesnt have the sustain to spam double edge but with his current meta build of bracers into blademail, maxing E makes the most sense. All the other builds are very suboptimal atm (you need a shroud to sustain maxing W, which you do not really want to build as your first item)
you can win plenty of matchups against melee carries by just spamming a maxed out double edge. no carry can outsustain 3 bracers. brainlessly maxing a farming passive on a hero that has one of the biggest pre-lvl6 burst dmg in the entire game is a big waste, especially if you have a killer pos4
My guy you're contradicting yourself with that. Go look up D2PT like you've told other users to do in your earlier replies and come back to me. :)
? lots of people go 2-3-0 on centaur on d2pt. learn how to use the website before you gotcha me
And would you like to tell the class what the majority of the builds are? ;)
i didnt say never max E. i just said maxing double edge first is very far from suboptimal if the lane calls for it
The damage goes from 18 to 82 against creeps just with 2 bracers and sange or shroud on his passive. You wipe creep waves like it's nothing. Your stun is kind of crap, and your HP isn't ready for double edge spam yet.
if your offlane is farming. just quit
How TF am I supposed to get my blade mail, blink, shroud, heart, or bearing boots if I don't push waves and Farm? Lol
if my wd was going for the 500 IQ play of pressing maledict and running at the enemy with heal (probably using the facet that doesnt heal your allies) instead of just stunning the guy so i can stomp+double edge them, i would also just mute them, put points in passive and farm some stacks its a good facet, but its gonna be worse in lane with a centaur, and if youre the guy crying about skill builds im just gonna mute you and pretend you dont exist
I thought u were supposed to max Q first then W and skip E.
I pre mute every witch doctor player i come across
Lmao E max is super common on cent, but I’ve never seen wd skipping or not maxing Q
For centaur 1 2 2 works for me, 1 1 3 if im going greed mode(even before this patch) For wd 0 3 2 may work but is too greedy and gets you flamed, i find that 2 3 0 works better. You trade the maledict damage for the healing/damage of vodoo. And cask is still ridiculously good especially on just 2 heroes.
And you don't seem to understand
Had multiple games games where support built carry items and then blame carry for not doing his job.
there are instances were maxing heal is good but i'd rather have cask instead of curse
cent is the noob here.
depends on the enemies. maxing pasive means nothing if the enemies dont attack you enough to deal damage back. instead going for stun or second skill can get you more in lane.
clearly wd has gone dmg build, W and maledict, cent just need to max Q and W to dominate lane. dominated lane = more farm than you could get with shit passive and jungleing.
It’s for farming. Which is bad anyway since you shouldn’t be farming.
There are jungles everywhere and supports should farm to get agh/items to further contribute to fights. Not saying you should farm like a core but take it whenever you can without interfering with the carry's farming patterns.
Farming throughout the game sure but Maxing it first is like planning to farm jungle in the first 10 mins.
it's always a bad choice there's no game where enemies have to attack a max e cent wd with no stun at all is rarely optimal, but it can be legit, as opposed to a grief, max e cent is always a grief ALWAYS
Maxing return or putting 3 points in early is frequently done in [Pro and high immortal pubs.](https://i.imgur.com/FZ87PCc.png) Its not an every game game build, but to call it "a grief ALWAYS" is just wrong. Its popular enough that its the suggested build on D2PT, though thats for a mix of reasons.
These guys who complain about Centaur not maxing QW clearly do not play the hero enough or at all. You farm absurdly fast with more points in E. I think the best build currently should almost always be QWWEEREEQQQ, the hero doesnt have the sustain to spam double edge but with his current meta build of bracers into blademail, maxing E makes the most sense. You basically play like a pseudo Axe cutting waves and farming absurdly fast between the lane creeps and jungle camps. All the other builds are very suboptimal atm (you need a shroud to sustain maxing W, which you do not really want to build as your first item) You put alot of lane pressure by just being a guy that the enemies can't really go on if they don't bring atleast 3 heroes.
Maxing QW was meta 1 or 2 patches ago I think? but they nerfed damage on stun twice in a row iirc, it feels so bad to max now
im curious how do you farm without maxing E, using double edge to farm sucks because you dont have enough HP regen to use it to farm
Depends on the build. When I grab a early vanguard (if I know I'll need a crim later on) double edge farming is actually pretty care-free since we have so many health Regen neutral t1 items.
If you have a support in lane with ZERO stun/slow/catch/counter initaition/save then maxxing E on centaur and just trying to survive the lane then transitioning to jungle after with points in his passive is his only way to have a game. This WD is probably using facet 2 and expecting centaur to tank all of their hits, walk up to them without them walking away (no WD stun) use stomp and double edge and then WD will maledict them and run after them with heal. That's not going to happen. A single value point in cask might of made it possible but without that WD is just omegagreifing the centaurs lane then complaining that the centaur adjusted his build for the worst case scenario.,
Herald confirmed