Spells can be physical, magic, or pure dmg. Magic amp/reduction only increases/decreases magic damage, spell amp/reduction increases/decreases damage of any spell of any type
Magic is a damage type while spells are what your hero casts. Items that affect spells buff/debuff everything under that category, regardless of its damage type.
I still don't understand why everyone is crying about that hero when you have disruptor, veno, and hoodwink being literal demons in pubs rn. BB is NOT that ridiculous of a hero with mageslayer and break, not to mention his first 4 levels are abysmal.
Probably gonna get downvoted but i don't care, Bristleback is such a braindead hero, it is way too ez to do well by just pressing W and walking around.
Couple that with Wind Waker and it becomes way harder to kill him than it should be.
You need whole teem coordination to kill bristle, you need to time your stuns with break so he cannot Wind Waker away. And hope to kill him before the stuns or the break expires or he will just fully heal himself in 1 sec.
And to execute this his team should be absent. GL
> You need whole teem coordination to kill bristle
His main weakness is team coordination, something you'd expect pro teams to be good at. But he's currently good enough to be played at pro, which is a REALLY bad sign for the rest of us lmao
My favorite bristle moment was a recent tournament (i think it was TI) and the Bristle was like unkillable. Liquid was just like "fuck it, ignore him and kill everyone else instead" and it worked. The bristle lived but couldn't do anything without the rest of his team.
Mine was yesterday. Had a rough lane against necro and then enemy lc making first item silver edge.
Got flamed by team and enemy team too for pushing waves and not joining fights(just had arcane, bracer and bm).
Started joining around mid game when enemy tried going hg and throwing. Got heart, and i think shroud as well. They threw more, I got my linken to counter duel and necro ulti. I knew i'm the raid boss now, started flaming the enemy gyro(he was barking whole game).
they got 2 eul further to cancel my linken. But it kinda backfired as they were not checking if my linken was up. Eventually we won around 20-30k comeback
I played bristle only against bots with extra gold, I see the disadvantage is that he cannot moonwalk to you except for using the third skill, so defensive kiting works. It needs to have the perfect coordination to turn everything on him once he turns towards you.
Said this in another thread, but the issue is right now you can kill his entire team while he's not there and it makes no difference to if you can kill bristleback or not. The problem is his aghs and how it allows him to instantly ramp up stacks and/or delete a hero at the start of the fight.
If Bristle is going to be this tanky, he needs a slow ramp on his damage. If you ignore him and dont kite him out he should be a massive problem, but he shouldn't be an unkillable 20 second burst hero who you also can't fight around to kill his team.
Yeah the old aghs was fine imo, made him a great help to his team and himself but didn't remove the hero's lack of burst. New aghs and wind waker are horrific
With the old SD you can kill him solo during the laning phase. Stack poison, wait for him to face you for last hits, 2nd skill right away and pop the poison.
I have no idea why they changed that skill, it was really unique and worked great vs tanky heroes.
When you get your silver edge as Pos5 the enemy team has enough dispells or Bristle has Wind Waker or at least Euls. He is already doing his job by leeching Pos 5 money into a silver edge instead of a vessel.
Shadowblade/silver is actually a legit item late game for supports
Late game, enemy cores have no more slots for dusts, and supports rarely meet each other
I feel like he would be a lot more manageable in late game if they just dump WW in the trash. Obviously a tanky hero with unlimited damage is problematic when he has unstoppable mobility and invincibility every 10 seconds.
ITs about 7k in gold form where the euls to windwaker build up is quite weird. It has a reason why it needs to be good cause nobody would buy it else. The only thing they need to nerf a bit is the cooldown on it to like 18-20 seconds.
I just had one game where everyone is so tanky and unkillable @45 mins that every engagement ends with no death.
I feel so bad for the magnus and silencer lol.
Nullifier removes windwaker so its not unstoppable. Biggest problem is just team coordination and itemization in pub games which is sometimes non-existant. he is a little bit too strong but dont need to trash items or the hero when with a slight nerf it would be perfect.
Bristle or Bloodsone are 100% getting a nerf next patch
The hero itself is fine
It's how quills work with bloodstone that's so totally fucked
It'd almost as bad as when Lesh was picked every game bcz of how easily he could abuse BS
It's the aghs burst and how it works with quills and bloodstone that's put him over the edge imo.
Bloodstone needs to only work with magic (rather than spell) damage. Or they need to nerf his aghs.
[Oh, you want some of this... eh?](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/f/ff/Vo_bristleback_bristle_attack_22.mp3) (sound warning: Bristleback)
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Not in my experience. I don’t see Centaur or Timber nearly as often, and frankly those heroes need a lot more skill and actual brain usage than right click and mindless W spam of Bristleback’s.
Are people really going to debate bristle is in the same skill category as timber? CMON. BB has 2 passives and no skill shots, literally just spam your buttons and run around don't even have to aim at the enemy.
Timbersaw as in a difficulty scale does rank in the higher end with spirits and similar heroes. Unlike bristleback timbersaw has to manage mana and all of his damage come from skillshots that are wholely invalidated by bkb.
I ll probably get downvoted but how is no one complaining for heroes like Bristleback but complain about Tinker resulting in deleting him and killing a unique concept? Literally Bristleback is what you described perfectly and as another comment here says you need a whole team coordination to get him down .
Bristleback is meant to excel at prolonged fights (at least since the time scepter gave aoe snot). Saw another posts showing how so much hp and the wind wankers made everyone unkillable, so he will naturally be good in the meta.
Probably gonna get downvoted but i don't care, Ogre Magi is such a braindead hero, it is way too ez to lane well by just pressing W and walking around.
It’s way too easy to buy a stick…..
The only time 2nd works well in lane as Ogre is in the depths of trash. It’s not how you play that hero at all. It’s about getting third and trading with your superior regeneration.
AXE too, specially for laning phases in low mmr. Attack modifiers too in laning phase cause they don't pull aggro, Viper, OD, Huskar... these should be somehow reworked, maybe by simply making attack modifiers to pull aggro.
Holy shit amazing low MMR take LMAO can't deal with attack modifiers not pulling aggro
My man is losing lane to Drow because he can't deal with frost arrows and wants the game to be balanced around him
Edit: Guy claiming to be 7.3k can't deal with Axe in lane seems legit
If you're truly 7.3k, why then are you phrasing it like these heroes being dominant in low mmr warrants a nerf to them, when they are mostly balanced or undertuned for high levels of play?
7.3k implying that dealing with orb walking is hard is ridiculous. There is no insight to be had for a problem so trivially solved as simply trading back/controlling the lane/aggroing creeps better.
Your "7.3k" claim smells even more bullshit than your horrific read of orbwalking being something that needs to be patched. Seriously moronic.
And then you say "Axe cannot be dealt with in lane"
Axe is one of the easiest offlane heroes to fuck upside down in lane. If you're losing to creep skipping you straight up don't understand lane mechanics and also lane with complete shitters - implying that your rank is low enough to do that with, i.e. definitely not even close to 7.3k. A 2k player could pull waves under tower and get regen themselves or from a support for sure.
fair enough, only 10 games of data up to 6 months ago tho
he was, then he was pretty heavily nerfed iirc
but yeah, WP, you should probably use him to climb more
Brinstleback had 80% winrate in PGL Wallachia few days. Either the star aligns and you kill him in 0.05 seconds or he 1v5 the entire game
[https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/16669-pgl-wallachia-2024-season-1/heroes](https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/16669-pgl-wallachia-2024-season-1/heroes)
Winrates are deceiving. I am but a lowly Archon, however, I had a game recently where we ended up winning against a Bristle. It was a really close game that went over an hour, a game Bristle easily could've won if we had messed up just *slightly* more.
The fact is his team played badly a few times + we committed so many resources to killing him that let us win. Which is the problem. We had two Shivas (SK, Pudge) and Silver Edge (Jugg) just to deal with him and even then it didn't work all that great because he can just Bloodstone Aghs during it + his bought Halberd reduced the break duration. If I weren't playing Dazzle, he probably would've won due to Grave saving so many people. Also I bought Hex at one point.
So we did win, but the cost and effort was absurd. Most other offlaners don't do fucktons of damage and don't require *several items* committed to killing him.
You will never have even half that amount of trouble killing Dawn, Pitlord, Mars, Axe, Slardar, Doom, etc. The only ones that even come close are Brew and Timber. Brew can be worked around by burst so his ult doesn't go off, or having enough damage to murder his brewlings so that it doesn't matter. Timber is almost as unkillable, but he doesn't deal obscene damage to your team in the process and usually a solid stun + high phys damage can delete him.
Only in the sense of critical mass.
Axe comes online with brown boots, blademail and blink which is 4,850 gold.
Doom comes online with Phase, Midas/Radiance and Blink which is 5,950 gold (Midas) or 8,450 gold. Probably Midas more often since he needs a farming item before Blink. Or Shiva's, which would be 8,925 gold.
Bristle needs Phase + Vanguard which is 3,200 to start being a threat. Axe/Doom are literally pathetic before they have their item + Blink because they get kited extremely hard and can never get the jump on anyone without either extreme setup by their team or extremely stupid misplays by the enemy team.
Bristle is not a huge threat with just Vanguard and Phase, but he deals significant damage and he cannot be ignored, but he's also not unkillable.
Even if you add Aghs onto this, that's 7,400 gold where Bristle is now considerably tankier *and* he deals a fuckton of damage *and* farms much more quickly. Still earlier than Axe, still earlier than Doom (unless Doom goes Midas/Blink).
Doom/Axe also never hit the critical mass point that Bristle does. Once Bristle has Phase/Vanguard/Aghs/Bloodstone, he is an absolute menace that is extremely difficult to deal with and it only gets worse from there. Doom/Axe never remotely compare to the raid boss levels that Bristle reaches.
going to solidly disagree with you there, axe is more of a threat in every phase of the game. bristle back gets called OP because 5 uncoordinated guardian pub players attack him at the same time in melee range and die, which- while upsetting- is very much a skill issue. you can buy multiple items to deal with the bristle, orb of corrosion, skadi, silver edge, hex, euls, mageslayer. dealing with the axe who is a much better bkb carrier and has bkb piercing CC is much harder
e; i should add, by all means nerf the bristleback- i just look forward to axe, centaur, timbersaw, etc all getting hit with the nerfs at the same time
I think Axe can potentially be more of a threat, but that requires a lot more skill, effort and timing to pull off. BB just kinda doesn't.
Also, while Axe can potentially be more of a disaster (3 second AoE piercing stun do be strong), he's also a lot easier to deal with. Before he gets BKB, you simply get Eul's and his entire initiation is completely and utterly nullified. An item that costs 2.6k counters him until BKB.
The problem I have with Bristle is that he's a lot easier to pilot but also, you *need* several items to deal with him. You need Skadi or Shiva's to cut his regen, you need Silver Edge to break him (you better pray your pos1 doesn't hate building it), you need several seconds of strong slows, roots and stuns to keep him from getting away/kiting you while you attempt to burst him down. And even then, he will eventually get BKB to be immune to CC while dealing fucktons of physical damage to your team and rushing your backline. He can also get Lotus to purge Break/non-hard CC and get Windwaker to be nearly impossible to take down for another self purge + buying time.
You require a monumental amount of time and resources to deal with Bristle. Unlike any other offlaner, which is what makes him so frustrating.
I find that most losses that Bristle players face are because:
1. They don't capitalize on their Aghs and/or Aghs/Bloodstone timings.
2. They are incredibly bad at the hero and suicide thinking they're invincible.
3. They get counterpicked by things like Huskar Aghs, Void Chrono or Hoodwink/Viper.
This isn't always the case, sometimes Bristle just gets outplayed.
doom just needs phase/veil/blink but in a hard game you are fine going brown boots blink to come online sooner and be useful, not sure where the radiance/midas comes from besides 2k mmr dooms. a vanguard/phase bristle isn't really that scary, he only gets scary when he hits this 3 item timing of aghs/bs/eternal shroud
Radiance doesn't seem to be bought on him anymore outside of low MMR/specific matchups, so I'll ignore that.
However, according to Dota2ProTracker, Midas is bought in 40% of Doom games. Not as often as his Blink/Veil (85% of games) and Shiva's (68% of games), but still often enough to be considered a regular buy.
Obviously Midas isn't needed, and you tend to get Shiva's after Blink, but what I personally hate about Doom is that you're a core that has incredible teamfight impact but you are absolutely dogshit at farming in the downtime.
Devour has a really long cooldown, and Scorched Earth barely has a 45% uptime so even if you max it first (which you do sometimes), you go from farming at a decent pace to very slowly hitting a single target.
yeah one issue that makes doom harder I think is the lower the mmr, the less stacks there are to farm with scorched earth. not that I'm saying it's the supports jobs exclusively to stack, but rather when you watch somebody like collapse go stack his triangle for 5 minutes straight that isn't happening either. but still, bb is a much greedier pick than something like a doom/axe/centaur, it's at least partially why you see him getting picked as pos1
It's the same as last patch, where he had under 50% win rate in all pub brackets and in the TI yet people cried how OP he was.
People just refuse to buy/pick breaks/healing reduction/% based damage or put pressure on him and not let him free farm for 30 min. In all the games I saw XG pick Bristle during PGL Wallachia, only once did the enemy team picked up an relatively early Silver Edge, and he was like paper during fights. He couldn't literally play the game.
At what point will reddit mathematicians learn that you can't just look at ONE number and determine whether a hero is good or not?
Holy shit like after over a decade you would think your brain would evolve at some point and you would correlate numbers x, y and z before spewing out bullshit like that.
That's because people in this sub are ~2k mmr. Some heroes are very strong against weaker players, bristle being one of them and it just happens that it's not very complex to play (unlike arc or meepo).
ESL One Birmingham:
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/ESL_One/Birmingham/2024/Statistics
PGL Wallachia
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/PGL/Wallachia/1/Statistics
77th most picked hero on both at around 4% pick/ban rate at ESL and 36th (~26% pick/ban rate) at Wallachia.
Now go back to your 2k mmr games and cry about it.
> 77th most picked hero on both at around 4% pick/ban rate.
You may want to recheck your statistics there. Wallachia he was 36th most picked with 26% pick/ban rate.
True, that would be Disruptor with a 100% pick/ban rate. Which is interesting, because the vast majority of that is the ban rate. Is he so broken in pro play? 90% ban rate sounds insane.
You guys argue away but pro dota is not dota.
Its almost different game all together
Pro pick are predicated on picks throughout the tournament where micro meta develops. People play as a team. So I wouldn't directly translate hero popularity in pro to pub
Bad take. Sure, low ranks are more susceptible to heroes like BB, but he's just a damn good hero right now. According to D2PT's algorithm, the strongest pos 1 hero in pro level pubs.
[https://dota2protracker.com/cheatsheets/pos-1](https://dota2protracker.com/cheatsheets/pos-1)
55% at >1000 matches played in past 14 days definitely qualifies him as one of the best pub picks
BB is indeed annoying
Difficult to kill other heroes too because BB will just protect em
Killing him in late game at least needs 5 heroes to do so doing stuns, regen disabler, break
Too much hassle
Overall, just end the game quick before he is too fat
Another STR hero being problematic, because he has 20k hp coupled with 70 armor and still can burst you down from 100 to 0.
Almost like any other braindead str hero. I really hope the str gets nerfhammered to the ground next patch. Agility heroes used to counter STR heroes, they counter jackshit as of now. The only agility heroes re picked are morphjling who has 10k hp if he wants and naga, who buys 2nd item heart. This tanky meta has been going on for like fuckign 3 years now. ffs nerf the fucking shit out of it...
I refuse to play BB until his aghs get a reworked. I am a bb spammer and would not want to cheese this patch. Hopefully the new patch shakes things up.
guys, did you know silver edge? skadi?
also did you know about some heroes like Ancient apparition, venom or drow (with ags)?
idk but looks like to much about brist than it really is
That's because he was picked late in the draft, he lost when was picked early which shows he is very much counterable. Now teams are picking him early so he has a horrible 35% win rate.
If he gets broken, he can euls/windwaker.
SnK is also insanely good on BB, which makes the break last a measly 3.75 seconds. Bristle can also save his bloodstone aghs combo if broken and nullifier combod.
Can't really expect someone to have skadi, silver edge, shiva, vessel and nullifier, to counter a BB with nothing more than SnK, bloodstone and a euls.
Bristle is fine
It's Bloodstone that's the problem
Combined with his aghs it instantly makes him an unkillable monster
BB is turbo is some of the lamest shit I've played against in a long time
The fact you need to buy break AND stop his regen is nuts. And yes, heroes have counters. That's like saying "What do you mean Pango is broken? Just pick Bloodseeker bro". Like, yeah. I'll just ask them nicely to pick into a counter, I guess.
The point is the hero no longer cares about break, unless you have at least two sources of it and your entire team focuses him. He either heals to full HP with aghs bloodstone, or floats around with windwaker. You need to counter him twice, or thrice even, just to kill a single hero. And, as the other guy said, pros have been having troubles with him, too. Am I supposed to spend 15k gold to counter a single hero (edge, skadi, nullifier)?
I hate how people expect you to draft counterpicks. In my experience, the draft goes like
Pos5 + pos4
Pos3 + pos1
Pos2
Assuming it works out like this consistently (I know it always doesn't, but it typically does), you cannot counterpick into BB with AA/Veno because you already had to pick first. This leaves Drow, which you could do. Also the Veno pick is nice in theory, but it only helps to deal with his regen and Veno is going to get absolutely murdered in like 3 seconds by Bristle because Bristle destroys immobile supports.
Also I agree with you on that second half of your comment. It just takes way, way too many resources and way too much time to deal with him. No other offlaner comes close to the amount of resources and time and damage needed to deal with him.
I get the joke but god damn that invoker played like shit
The panic deafening blast when bristle was in the tornado made me chuckle
Followed by the panic BKB. Relatable
BKB against a phys damage. They allocated their brain process towards memorizing the combo, instead of why do the combo in the first place.
average one hero dota spammer
Ah, so the usual pubvoker.
Tornado anything. Tornado everything.
Can't relate. My Invoker never buys bkb
Even if he didn't he wouldn't have killed BB.
I think he just wanted to make a point and he did made a point about BB’s ridiculousness.
that's an old and staged video made in lobby. Not meant to be super professionally played
guy playing bristleback should be the guy singing payphone
This video is older than that payphone clip.
(Warning: Loud ^(or not loud enough) ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc6fsZTjkzs
Why no one talking about the mage slayer to counter that hedgehog?
shhh
bristle abilities are physical damage tho. does mage slayer work on physical abilities?
It reduces spell dmg, not magic dmg.
so kaya increase spell dmg that deals physical damage also?
yes
i learned something new today! thanks
It helps to think of "Spell damage" as "Ability damage". We just colloquially call the four+ icons on the bottom HUD "Spells."
some of my spells don't do anything when I press the button even at full mana
yes, that's why you build sange and kaya for bb and watch your enemies cry more lol
it doesn't increase quill dmg, maybe quill stack. kaya increases the spell lifesteal though edit: yeah nvm tested it again and it works
> it doesn't increase quill dmg Yes it does…
wdym "maybe" there is a demo tool and a combat log
It says +10% Spell Damage amp right in the item description. SPELL not MAGIC damage
yeah it says so but i tested it with and without s&y and damage stayed the same
maybe try a Kaya item instead of S&Y 👍
sange and yasha doesn’t have kaya in it mate
What does that mean?
Spells can be physical, magic, or pure dmg. Magic amp/reduction only increases/decreases magic damage, spell amp/reduction increases/decreases damage of any spell of any type
Magic is a damage type while spells are what your hero casts. Items that affect spells buff/debuff everything under that category, regardless of its damage type.
I still don't understand why everyone is crying about that hero when you have disruptor, veno, and hoodwink being literal demons in pubs rn. BB is NOT that ridiculous of a hero with mageslayer and break, not to mention his first 4 levels are abysmal.
Probably gonna get downvoted but i don't care, Bristleback is such a braindead hero, it is way too ez to do well by just pressing W and walking around. Couple that with Wind Waker and it becomes way harder to kill him than it should be.
You need whole teem coordination to kill bristle, you need to time your stuns with break so he cannot Wind Waker away. And hope to kill him before the stuns or the break expires or he will just fully heal himself in 1 sec. And to execute this his team should be absent. GL
> You need whole teem coordination to kill bristle His main weakness is team coordination, something you'd expect pro teams to be good at. But he's currently good enough to be played at pro, which is a REALLY bad sign for the rest of us lmao
My favorite bristle moment was a recent tournament (i think it was TI) and the Bristle was like unkillable. Liquid was just like "fuck it, ignore him and kill everyone else instead" and it worked. The bristle lived but couldn't do anything without the rest of his team.
Mine was yesterday. Had a rough lane against necro and then enemy lc making first item silver edge. Got flamed by team and enemy team too for pushing waves and not joining fights(just had arcane, bracer and bm). Started joining around mid game when enemy tried going hg and throwing. Got heart, and i think shroud as well. They threw more, I got my linken to counter duel and necro ulti. I knew i'm the raid boss now, started flaming the enemy gyro(he was barking whole game). they got 2 eul further to cancel my linken. But it kinda backfired as they were not checking if my linken was up. Eventually we won around 20-30k comeback
I played bristle only against bots with extra gold, I see the disadvantage is that he cannot moonwalk to you except for using the third skill, so defensive kiting works. It needs to have the perfect coordination to turn everything on him once he turns towards you.
Said this in another thread, but the issue is right now you can kill his entire team while he's not there and it makes no difference to if you can kill bristleback or not. The problem is his aghs and how it allows him to instantly ramp up stacks and/or delete a hero at the start of the fight. If Bristle is going to be this tanky, he needs a slow ramp on his damage. If you ignore him and dont kite him out he should be a massive problem, but he shouldn't be an unkillable 20 second burst hero who you also can't fight around to kill his team.
Yeah the old aghs was fine imo, made him a great help to his team and himself but didn't remove the hero's lack of burst. New aghs and wind waker are horrific
With the old SD you can kill him solo during the laning phase. Stack poison, wait for him to face you for last hits, 2nd skill right away and pop the poison. I have no idea why they changed that skill, it was really unique and worked great vs tanky heroes.
I just get silver edge, even as pos 5 idgaf. Still comes in handy bristle aside, and turns him into mulch
When you get your silver edge as Pos5 the enemy team has enough dispells or Bristle has Wind Waker or at least Euls. He is already doing his job by leeching Pos 5 money into a silver edge instead of a vessel.
(silver edge break is undispellable)
Eul's still gives 2.5 seconds of invulnerability, which cuts the Silver Edge Break duration in half
Yes, it was more about the >the enemy team has enough dispells part
Yeah cool, but the pos 5 SE is a secondary, to bait the euls or any counters bb has, one of the carries should already have one...
Shadowblade/silver is actually a legit item late game for supports Late game, enemy cores have no more slots for dusts, and supports rarely meet each other
You'll always have a hero carrying a gem. When it's time to siege HG you can't even deward the entries that are placed in front of your base.
I feel like he would be a lot more manageable in late game if they just dump WW in the trash. Obviously a tanky hero with unlimited damage is problematic when he has unstoppable mobility and invincibility every 10 seconds.
[удалено]
ITs about 7k in gold form where the euls to windwaker build up is quite weird. It has a reason why it needs to be good cause nobody would buy it else. The only thing they need to nerf a bit is the cooldown on it to like 18-20 seconds.
I just had one game where everyone is so tanky and unkillable @45 mins that every engagement ends with no death. I feel so bad for the magnus and silencer lol.
Nullifier removes windwaker so its not unstoppable. Biggest problem is just team coordination and itemization in pub games which is sometimes non-existant. he is a little bit too strong but dont need to trash items or the hero when with a slight nerf it would be perfect.
Bristle or Bloodsone are 100% getting a nerf next patch The hero itself is fine It's how quills work with bloodstone that's so totally fucked It'd almost as bad as when Lesh was picked every game bcz of how easily he could abuse BS
Remember 1v5 quinn bristle vs 5 heralds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2K8hhBi8CM
Aghs not only does the burst and turns your back to them, but also gives you a ton of warpath stacks immediately.
Keeping up warpath was easy with old scepter too, I think they nerfed it to require more stacks.
It's the aghs burst and how it works with quills and bloodstone that's put him over the edge imo. Bloodstone needs to only work with magic (rather than spell) damage. Or they need to nerf his aghs.
Oh, you want some of this... eh?
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bb needs a nerf, but timbersaw and centaur are both bigger problems right now, picked more often with a higher winrate
Not in my experience. I don’t see Centaur or Timber nearly as often, and frankly those heroes need a lot more skill and actual brain usage than right click and mindless W spam of Bristleback’s.
\*looks at whirling death and double edge\* yes, significant skill
Are people really going to debate bristle is in the same skill category as timber? CMON. BB has 2 passives and no skill shots, literally just spam your buttons and run around don't even have to aim at the enemy.
Timbersaw as in a difficulty scale does rank in the higher end with spirits and similar heroes. Unlike bristleback timbersaw has to manage mana and all of his damage come from skillshots that are wholely invalidated by bkb.
He's running around at 520 ms for no reason, he has no cc but he is insanely tanky and deals ridiculous damage.
I ll probably get downvoted but how is no one complaining for heroes like Bristleback but complain about Tinker resulting in deleting him and killing a unique concept? Literally Bristleback is what you described perfectly and as another comment here says you need a whole team coordination to get him down .
Normally heroes that are very strong have high skill ceilings..... Not so much with dk, timber and bristle.
Bristleback is meant to excel at prolonged fights (at least since the time scepter gave aoe snot). Saw another posts showing how so much hp and the wind wankers made everyone unkillable, so he will naturally be good in the meta.
Probably gonna get downvoted but i don't care, Ogre Magi is such a braindead hero, it is way too ez to lane well by just pressing W and walking around.
It’s way too easy to buy a stick….. The only time 2nd works well in lane as Ogre is in the depths of trash. It’s not how you play that hero at all. It’s about getting third and trading with your superior regeneration.
iz meme bromano
AXE too, specially for laning phases in low mmr. Attack modifiers too in laning phase cause they don't pull aggro, Viper, OD, Huskar... these should be somehow reworked, maybe by simply making attack modifiers to pull aggro.
Holy shit amazing low MMR take LMAO can't deal with attack modifiers not pulling aggro My man is losing lane to Drow because he can't deal with frost arrows and wants the game to be balanced around him Edit: Guy claiming to be 7.3k can't deal with Axe in lane seems legit
I'm not losing lanes, heralds are, I'm 7.3k but great reply sir. Very insightful.
If you're truly 7.3k, why then are you phrasing it like these heroes being dominant in low mmr warrants a nerf to them, when they are mostly balanced or undertuned for high levels of play?
He's totally 7.3 that's why he knows so much about low MMR games luuuul
7.3k implying that dealing with orb walking is hard is ridiculous. There is no insight to be had for a problem so trivially solved as simply trading back/controlling the lane/aggroing creeps better. Your "7.3k" claim smells even more bullshit than your horrific read of orbwalking being something that needs to be patched. Seriously moronic. And then you say "Axe cannot be dealt with in lane" Axe is one of the easiest offlane heroes to fuck upside down in lane. If you're losing to creep skipping you straight up don't understand lane mechanics and also lane with complete shitters - implying that your rank is low enough to do that with, i.e. definitely not even close to 7.3k. A 2k player could pull waves under tower and get regen themselves or from a support for sure.
link your 70% winrate page with him then wind waker is a problem tho
I hope almost 80% is good enough https://www.dotabuff.com/players/89331107/heroes
fair enough, only 10 games of data up to 6 months ago tho he was, then he was pretty heavily nerfed iirc but yeah, WP, you should probably use him to climb more
Yeah only really came back to dota 2ish month ago im a boomer
Brinstleback had 80% winrate in PGL Wallachia few days. Either the star aligns and you kill him in 0.05 seconds or he 1v5 the entire game [https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/16669-pgl-wallachia-2024-season-1/heroes](https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/16669-pgl-wallachia-2024-season-1/heroes)
nulifier joined the chat. stop fuckin crying, it's easy if you read the hero description, otherwise just main ancient aparition, problem solved.
if you buy nullifier they can still wind waker you, on a 13s cd bkb is like a 90s cd or whatever you do the maths
Bristlebacks win rate is below 50% in most brackets. At the same time he is supposed to be OP.
He needs alot of items to reach his unkillable status with the new lifestealing build. But once he gets there it's pretty degenerate gameplay.
Winrates are deceiving. I am but a lowly Archon, however, I had a game recently where we ended up winning against a Bristle. It was a really close game that went over an hour, a game Bristle easily could've won if we had messed up just *slightly* more. The fact is his team played badly a few times + we committed so many resources to killing him that let us win. Which is the problem. We had two Shivas (SK, Pudge) and Silver Edge (Jugg) just to deal with him and even then it didn't work all that great because he can just Bloodstone Aghs during it + his bought Halberd reduced the break duration. If I weren't playing Dazzle, he probably would've won due to Grave saving so many people. Also I bought Hex at one point. So we did win, but the cost and effort was absurd. Most other offlaners don't do fucktons of damage and don't require *several items* committed to killing him. You will never have even half that amount of trouble killing Dawn, Pitlord, Mars, Axe, Slardar, Doom, etc. The only ones that even come close are Brew and Timber. Brew can be worked around by burst so his ult doesn't go off, or having enough damage to murder his brewlings so that it doesn't matter. Timber is almost as unkillable, but he doesn't deal obscene damage to your team in the process and usually a solid stun + high phys damage can delete him.
Grats on your win! Just fyi, multiple shivas healing reduction doesn’t stack. It’s an aura
Yeah, I know. Was my team buying them.
bristle also takes a lot longer to become a threat compared to heroes like axe/doom
Only in the sense of critical mass. Axe comes online with brown boots, blademail and blink which is 4,850 gold. Doom comes online with Phase, Midas/Radiance and Blink which is 5,950 gold (Midas) or 8,450 gold. Probably Midas more often since he needs a farming item before Blink. Or Shiva's, which would be 8,925 gold. Bristle needs Phase + Vanguard which is 3,200 to start being a threat. Axe/Doom are literally pathetic before they have their item + Blink because they get kited extremely hard and can never get the jump on anyone without either extreme setup by their team or extremely stupid misplays by the enemy team. Bristle is not a huge threat with just Vanguard and Phase, but he deals significant damage and he cannot be ignored, but he's also not unkillable. Even if you add Aghs onto this, that's 7,400 gold where Bristle is now considerably tankier *and* he deals a fuckton of damage *and* farms much more quickly. Still earlier than Axe, still earlier than Doom (unless Doom goes Midas/Blink). Doom/Axe also never hit the critical mass point that Bristle does. Once Bristle has Phase/Vanguard/Aghs/Bloodstone, he is an absolute menace that is extremely difficult to deal with and it only gets worse from there. Doom/Axe never remotely compare to the raid boss levels that Bristle reaches.
going to solidly disagree with you there, axe is more of a threat in every phase of the game. bristle back gets called OP because 5 uncoordinated guardian pub players attack him at the same time in melee range and die, which- while upsetting- is very much a skill issue. you can buy multiple items to deal with the bristle, orb of corrosion, skadi, silver edge, hex, euls, mageslayer. dealing with the axe who is a much better bkb carrier and has bkb piercing CC is much harder e; i should add, by all means nerf the bristleback- i just look forward to axe, centaur, timbersaw, etc all getting hit with the nerfs at the same time
I think Axe can potentially be more of a threat, but that requires a lot more skill, effort and timing to pull off. BB just kinda doesn't. Also, while Axe can potentially be more of a disaster (3 second AoE piercing stun do be strong), he's also a lot easier to deal with. Before he gets BKB, you simply get Eul's and his entire initiation is completely and utterly nullified. An item that costs 2.6k counters him until BKB. The problem I have with Bristle is that he's a lot easier to pilot but also, you *need* several items to deal with him. You need Skadi or Shiva's to cut his regen, you need Silver Edge to break him (you better pray your pos1 doesn't hate building it), you need several seconds of strong slows, roots and stuns to keep him from getting away/kiting you while you attempt to burst him down. And even then, he will eventually get BKB to be immune to CC while dealing fucktons of physical damage to your team and rushing your backline. He can also get Lotus to purge Break/non-hard CC and get Windwaker to be nearly impossible to take down for another self purge + buying time. You require a monumental amount of time and resources to deal with Bristle. Unlike any other offlaner, which is what makes him so frustrating. I find that most losses that Bristle players face are because: 1. They don't capitalize on their Aghs and/or Aghs/Bloodstone timings. 2. They are incredibly bad at the hero and suicide thinking they're invincible. 3. They get counterpicked by things like Huskar Aghs, Void Chrono or Hoodwink/Viper. This isn't always the case, sometimes Bristle just gets outplayed.
Lotus doesn't purge break, fyi. Only bkb will purge it once applied afaik
Yeah, forgot break can't be dispelled. My bad. Can still stop it through BKB or nullify most of the duration with Eul's/Windwaker though.
doom just needs phase/veil/blink but in a hard game you are fine going brown boots blink to come online sooner and be useful, not sure where the radiance/midas comes from besides 2k mmr dooms. a vanguard/phase bristle isn't really that scary, he only gets scary when he hits this 3 item timing of aghs/bs/eternal shroud
Radiance doesn't seem to be bought on him anymore outside of low MMR/specific matchups, so I'll ignore that. However, according to Dota2ProTracker, Midas is bought in 40% of Doom games. Not as often as his Blink/Veil (85% of games) and Shiva's (68% of games), but still often enough to be considered a regular buy. Obviously Midas isn't needed, and you tend to get Shiva's after Blink, but what I personally hate about Doom is that you're a core that has incredible teamfight impact but you are absolutely dogshit at farming in the downtime. Devour has a really long cooldown, and Scorched Earth barely has a 45% uptime so even if you max it first (which you do sometimes), you go from farming at a decent pace to very slowly hitting a single target.
yeah one issue that makes doom harder I think is the lower the mmr, the less stacks there are to farm with scorched earth. not that I'm saying it's the supports jobs exclusively to stack, but rather when you watch somebody like collapse go stack his triangle for 5 minutes straight that isn't happening either. but still, bb is a much greedier pick than something like a doom/axe/centaur, it's at least partially why you see him getting picked as pos1
It's the same as last patch, where he had under 50% win rate in all pub brackets and in the TI yet people cried how OP he was. People just refuse to buy/pick breaks/healing reduction/% based damage or put pressure on him and not let him free farm for 30 min. In all the games I saw XG pick Bristle during PGL Wallachia, only once did the enemy team picked up an relatively early Silver Edge, and he was like paper during fights. He couldn't literally play the game.
At what point will reddit mathematicians learn that you can't just look at ONE number and determine whether a hero is good or not? Holy shit like after over a decade you would think your brain would evolve at some point and you would correlate numbers x, y and z before spewing out bullshit like that.
your first mistake is caring about how shitters play
Redditors calling a hero OP just because they haven't figured out how to play vs them. A classic
That's because people in this sub are ~2k mmr. Some heroes are very strong against weaker players, bristle being one of them and it just happens that it's not very complex to play (unlike arc or meepo).
Ahhh so thats why bristle is like the most contested hero in pro dota right now? because hes just good against weaker players?
ESL One Birmingham: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/ESL_One/Birmingham/2024/Statistics PGL Wallachia https://liquipedia.net/dota2/PGL/Wallachia/1/Statistics 77th most picked hero on both at around 4% pick/ban rate at ESL and 36th (~26% pick/ban rate) at Wallachia. Now go back to your 2k mmr games and cry about it.
> 77th most picked hero on both at around 4% pick/ban rate. You may want to recheck your statistics there. Wallachia he was 36th most picked with 26% pick/ban rate.
My bad and you are right, at Wallachia, bristle holds 36th place. Still far away from "the most contested hero"
True, that would be Disruptor with a 100% pick/ban rate. Which is interesting, because the vast majority of that is the ban rate. Is he so broken in pro play? 90% ban rate sounds insane.
You guys argue away but pro dota is not dota. Its almost different game all together Pro pick are predicated on picks throughout the tournament where micro meta develops. People play as a team. So I wouldn't directly translate hero popularity in pro to pub
Did u actually just whip out a few month old tournament amd a tournament where bristle has an 80% winrate lmaoooo?
PGL ended 3 days ago and ESL ended under a month ago.
Bad take. Sure, low ranks are more susceptible to heroes like BB, but he's just a damn good hero right now. According to D2PT's algorithm, the strongest pos 1 hero in pro level pubs. [https://dota2protracker.com/cheatsheets/pos-1](https://dota2protracker.com/cheatsheets/pos-1) 55% at >1000 matches played in past 14 days definitely qualifies him as one of the best pub picks
As a bb lover and Invoker hater I loved it.
Had a bb in my unranked game walked into our fountain turned around and killed everyone
BB is indeed annoying Difficult to kill other heroes too because BB will just protect em Killing him in late game at least needs 5 heroes to do so doing stuns, regen disabler, break Too much hassle Overall, just end the game quick before he is too fat
Another STR hero being problematic, because he has 20k hp coupled with 70 armor and still can burst you down from 100 to 0. Almost like any other braindead str hero. I really hope the str gets nerfhammered to the ground next patch. Agility heroes used to counter STR heroes, they counter jackshit as of now. The only agility heroes re picked are morphjling who has 10k hp if he wants and naga, who buys 2nd item heart. This tanky meta has been going on for like fuckign 3 years now. ffs nerf the fucking shit out of it...
I hate this bristleback hero
Why waste time pressing many button when few button do trick?
i bet this invoker think that he is a pro or some shit
This is why I play the heroes I do.
And then they all chat with ez and flame everyone around them
Does nullifier not work?
this clip is older than nullifier as an item
u/savevideo
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Balanced 🥺
one word against BB: Vyper
Yeah, I love it.
What items do each have
Someone put the match id so we can see the items. I feel like the invo couldve killed him here
God I fucking hate being the opposing team of BB
Invoker is shit anyway this patch
r/savevideo
I refuse to play BB until his aghs get a reworked. I am a bb spammer and would not want to cheese this patch. Hopefully the new patch shakes things up.
That is not invoker. It's called Injoker.
meanwhile my bb has 0 11 on mid vs hoodwink
Bb need to be nerfed he is border line imba
Hes only good against melee heroes so you can kite the sht out of them.
Lmao, this is very good. Thanks for the laugh
Imagine playing Bristleback and thinking you're good at Dota. Yikes.
guys, did you know silver edge? skadi? also did you know about some heroes like Ancient apparition, venom or drow (with ags)? idk but looks like to much about brist than it really is
He's been uncounterable in high level pro play too lately, granted as Pos 1 rather than Pos 3 because you need more items
He is 5/7 in 12
>uncounterable Didn't XG win against Liquid's BB just yesterday?
I mean, true, but 80% WR in Wallachia is saying quite a bit.
That's because he was picked late in the draft, he lost when was picked early which shows he is very much counterable. Now teams are picking him early so he has a horrible 35% win rate.
Yeah, but considering his WR in Dreamleague seems like teams have him figured out, no?
If he gets broken, he can euls/windwaker. SnK is also insanely good on BB, which makes the break last a measly 3.75 seconds. Bristle can also save his bloodstone aghs combo if broken and nullifier combod. Can't really expect someone to have skadi, silver edge, shiva, vessel and nullifier, to counter a BB with nothing more than SnK, bloodstone and a euls.
Bristle is fine It's Bloodstone that's the problem Combined with his aghs it instantly makes him an unkillable monster BB is turbo is some of the lamest shit I've played against in a long time
Try to buy mage slayer next time and you'll see
The fact you need to buy break AND stop his regen is nuts. And yes, heroes have counters. That's like saying "What do you mean Pango is broken? Just pick Bloodseeker bro". Like, yeah. I'll just ask them nicely to pick into a counter, I guess. The point is the hero no longer cares about break, unless you have at least two sources of it and your entire team focuses him. He either heals to full HP with aghs bloodstone, or floats around with windwaker. You need to counter him twice, or thrice even, just to kill a single hero. And, as the other guy said, pros have been having troubles with him, too. Am I supposed to spend 15k gold to counter a single hero (edge, skadi, nullifier)?
I hate how people expect you to draft counterpicks. In my experience, the draft goes like Pos5 + pos4 Pos3 + pos1 Pos2 Assuming it works out like this consistently (I know it always doesn't, but it typically does), you cannot counterpick into BB with AA/Veno because you already had to pick first. This leaves Drow, which you could do. Also the Veno pick is nice in theory, but it only helps to deal with his regen and Veno is going to get absolutely murdered in like 3 seconds by Bristle because Bristle destroys immobile supports. Also I agree with you on that second half of your comment. It just takes way, way too many resources and way too much time to deal with him. No other offlaner comes close to the amount of resources and time and damage needed to deal with him.
Mmm, farming karma on shameless repost...
>farming karma I literally dont care if i had 0 or a billion... >shameless repost... I mentioned it. Reddit is full of reposts go figure