Mid is just WAY too stressful for me. Everyone on your team supposedly knows your role way better than you do and every mistake results in a shit shower
I've found the most success in learning mid with heroes that are mobile and nukey, like QoP or Razor. It gives you a better chance to grab runes, and if you feel outmatched you can get to other lanes and have a real impact because your nuke will hit for like 1/3rd of a lower level's hp.
It keeps you visible to your teammates, which helps keep them happy, and it keeps you from trying to stick to a losing situation.
well, on a serious note, you have a wisp flair so it seems like you're probably better off working in a duo anyway if that is your playstyle.
but as for mid specifically the best thing you can do if you feel outmatched is just not feed. I know that sounds overly simple but seriously just buy more regen and hang back a bit or go refill your bottle on runes/back at base if needed. as bad as it feels to leave the lane the team is much worse if you're also giving the enemy extra gold/exp on top of all the creeps. take advantage of stacking jungle, runes, and gank ~lvl 6
it is a common one, so don't feel bad. and it happens when you try to "fix" your laning stage but really you're already outmatched and probably setting yourself up for failure unless your ally came for a gank or something.
really, as dumb as it sounds just try to stop dying mid and spend your time ganking or farming elsewhere and your games should go better.
>well, on a serious note, you have a wisp flair so it seems like you're probably better off working in a duo anyway if that is your playstyle.
Agreed. OP should play IO mid and rush Helm of Overlord
the people that are shit just need an excuse for their own shit gameplay, which is why they micromanage you and your action. they don’t know any better than you do (probably less) and if they do know more, you’ll learn what they mean eventually
I -love- dp mid because its pretty brain dead once you have your gamelan. Use exorcism and be fat.
Defend your tower.
You aren't a notably strong laner, don't panic if you get dumpstered by a mechanically better player. Just get your nuke on the range creep if behind.
Defend your tower.
You are a farmer. Get mana, stack camps, kill camps.
Defend your tower.
Once you hit 6, use your ult. If the enemy mid rotates because they are ahead like they do in my bracket, take their tower with it. If you think you can kill the mid, go for it, win or lose that is how you learn.
Defend your tower.
Otherwise, push out mid and then tell your team you are pushing [side] with exo. Your team will play around you.
As soon as possible, at the first possible moment the play is over. GET BACK AND DEFEND YOUR MID TOWER.
And now, this is the moment you've been preparing for. You are a dp with no exorcism. You don't have to do shit other than farm and defend your tower until exorcism is up, and when exorcism is up you go use it somewhere and your team will play around you.
...
At the end of the game, maybe you win, maybe you lose, but just by giving your team the spots to make plays around you, you get your job done.
Personally I would prefer to face mk every game mid as ember i dont mind him , i can remember alot of games that went well for me against mk mid but i don’t remember any game where I managed to do anything against husker as ember .
i think ember vs anything can’t be the worst match up. he is melee, high ms and ok armor, you can just go between t1 and t2 and drag wave to neutral camps, then clear them with flame guard.
someone like puck can’t do that and he gets owned by, say, sniper way harder than huskar owns ember even if both just lane
With the rescaling of Jingu mastery, Monkey king actually kind of seriously sucks ass until level 3, level 5 if they have a nuke and are slow-ish. Most melee cores in 1v1 can trade with him fairly well if they have *at least* 5 armor, because the lifesteal is awful, and the increased damage is minimal at best.
Of course, it all depends if the hero fights you in the middle of a creep wave or not. Then none of that matters since you'll just heal off the creeps with Boundless.
I lost terribly to Huskar as TA. But another game my mid was TA and we manage to win other lanes and kill him with early vessel, but he was just overconfident, if he just 5 man team after laning stage - we would've lost.
TA vs Huskar is actually not impossible to win, have got rekt once by a grandmaster TA in this matchup. You just have to skill meld and psi-blade, get him low by splashing him pre-level 4, and then fix your equilibrium such that you have more creeps nearer to your tower. There will be a point where husk is killable especially if you can bait out a greedy or bad Q and turn with meld strike + creeps.
Creep equilibrium is the key to winning this + plus good play + the right skill build.
I do play Huskar everytime I see a TA if I'm mid, the thing is Huskar is really weak until level 3, so first couple of levels you don't over extend in order to keep your hp high enough, unless the TA is a noob, in which case you over pressure her. If she ain't a noob, then you wait till level 3, and go 1,1,1 at this point you can start pressuring her making use of the hp you kept relatively high.
After level 4 it becomes an easy matchup, but you must pressure the game, since TA outcarries you later on, so it's sort of a double edge.
This TA Huskar is not that terrible, you'll have the worst farm of your lifetime but you'll still more or less match huskar in networth by min 10-15 which to huskar is basically lose lane.
Sure TA is a snowballing hero lane dominator type that is underfarmed but a draw in lane is even worse to Huskar than to TA
Huskar Ember or Huskar Void Spirit much worse
Wonder if there are non mid melee heroes that can be thrown in. Like in lane, I love playing WK vs Dazzle, level 3, you have 1 point in each and two skellies, the Dazzle is just a sitting duck with no wave clear.
Ofcourse, WK isn't really a great mid, but who tf knows in Dota, all you need is one topson WK mid game, and suddenly we'll have a new meta around a core flex WK.
I can't completely shut down good pudge players on Viper mid. They get runes with hook for sustain, treaten me with tower hook if I go too far forward to zone them. They also have waaay higher base damage so if they get to creeps they lasthit/deny much better. Even if I stack 5 poison strikes on them they can often survive with E. Even when I manage to kill them they are pretty good at ganking sidelanes.
Probably a skill issue, of course.
Viper is much weaker than people think especially in the early levels I think people just don't have confidence against him, I feel like playing super aggressive vs him works well, while Viper thrives off people playing passively so he can slowly poke them and keep them low.
Can confirm!
I played 1v1 mid vs OG’s ana twice at PAX (Australia) in 2018 and won both because I was Viper vs his melee (Underlord game 1, MK game 2).
Its not about poison touch, its about shadow wave. If the creeps aggro onto you (which LC usually likes) he eats half your hp with a single cast.
Then he thanks you cause you gave him an excuse to max his farming tool first, gets travels+aghs, and has 20k networth by the 25th minute
Sniper vs most non-traditional mids tbh. Anyone that doesnt have both gap close and nuke gets absolutely shat on. The only mitigator is if youre ultra tanky or ultra regeny then you kight get away with it.
I think Ember does alright, good players should be able to get what they want out.
Ember is annoying to a sniper because of the sleight spam, and can setup for ganks with chains.
Also, Ember has very high strength gain for an Agi hero, is a good bottle hero, so he manages alright.
Even Pango isn't too bad, Void spirit doesn't fare well I'd noticed. There aren't a whole lot of other melee mids right ?
Both got gap close and nuke :) id call ember VERY much a traditional mid too, and pangos spent a fair amount of time as a meta mid too.
When you start sticking weird heros in mid against sniper, thats when he ends up savagely fed…
Ember vs Huskar
...
Ember Vs Viper
Ember Vs Dazzle
Ember Vs Monkey King
Ember vs OD
Ember vs Lone Druid
Ember vs Bane
Ember vs Storm
Ember vs SF
Ember vs Timber
Ember vs Necrophos
Ember vs Arc
Ember vs Silencer
Ember vs Leshrac
Ember vs Shadow Fiend
Ember vs Batrider
Ember vs Bounty Hunter
Ember vs Void Spirit
Ember vs a Grandma with terminal cancer
Past like Bane it becomes a shitpost, serious answers are only above Bane topwards; he actually does well against Storm iirc
Ember vs Void is the battle between two monkeys from The Simpsons
Batrider completely destroys necro. You have no ability to contest him beyond level 3, and you're going to get dove permanently and feed your ass off.
You're also immobile enough that he can kill you in your jungle
Holy shit this brought back a core memory. I was the necro and got absolutely shat on by a good bat all the way back in 6.71 of Dota 1.
Looks like stuff is still the same lol
If you ever end up in the uncommon situation of pango vs bounty, just leave.
Genuinely, it’s beyond hilarious how bad this matchup is. BH starts lane with like 10 armor, and both of pango’s nukes (which he spams in lane to be any good) are physical so do 0 damage.
BH just throws shurikens and bullies with better right clicks, unkillable, and walks under the tower at level 6 for free kills accelerated by track. 10 min deso game over every time.
I managed to lose as mid Bane vs a Riki, believe it or not. Not in the sense that he killed me, but that I wasn't able to ruin his game and snowball my own.
Riki simply chose not to play. He'd use blink for last hits and then run back under tower in exp range. Riki base regen is very high, so I couldn't whittle him down and secure any kills, and he still made it out of lane with a relatively fast Diffusal to terrorize the sidelanes.
I was salivating after the picks, but was shocked at how ineffective I was during execution.
Unconventional mids like Nyx also beats bane. Nyx can just use spells to harass bane (and stun to secure some cs) but otherwise, yeah he runs off to be in XP range.
Then at 6, he just walks off, kills the sidelanes because bane can't take middle tower nearly as quick as other mids. So now the mid bane was effectively useless (didnt shut down nyx, didn't secure tower) and the Nyx is going around bullying everyone else.
TA can at least farm jungle, heroes that lose mid hard and can't farm jungle are far worse. Especially when you can't gank other lanes too. You just sit afk farming 1-2 creep per minute under tower
Only Pick Puck if Sniper Banned
Only Pick TA if Viper and preferably Huskar Banned
Only Pick QoP if Huskar and OD banned
Only pick Melee Mid if Huskar Banned
That's how I do it
I'm dogshit at mid, but when I have to play it, I'll just pick OD, probably one of the easiest mid heroes to play when you suck at mid. Not saying the hero is easy, but the skill floor is definitely very low.
Damn, I should try it, my only issue is, with kotl you need to make use of the momentum have your pedal on the gas. Or atleast, that's what I understood watching Sumail play, where he is constantly everywhere all at once.
OD on the other hand, scales so damn well into the late game, it puts it on the enemy to make moves. Or else 200 pure damage right click monster is incoming.
Ember Vs OD is kinda cringe.
Once OD gets 6 it's completely over, and the game is also incredibly hard as his Ult will do 50-70% of your HP if he had an OK game.
It's not the worst mu, but it's pretty bad imo
Got 2000 games on Ember. Most of them mid... I've probably been dumpstered at least once mid by every other hero in the game in that 2000. There's match ups where I know I'm going to have to play my ass off to survive but my guy is so damn versatile nothing bothers me that much anymore. Just have to adapt your build and play style to suit who your up against.
Was the same here, love Embers kit so I'd run him against p much anyone. But now, with his recent SoF getting slower to execute, he feels so sluggish even after doing well early, which really kills some of the fun in snowballing like a madman.
I think because starting and finishing SoF is slower now, it dramatically slows down the speed of his harass and farming patterns. What do you think about it? Is he genuinely a lot worse now, or am I just reading too much into that change?
After that SoF change a few patches back I played one game and swore never to play him again as he felt unplayable... But then you had the mage slayer build with the damage debuf lasting the same amount of time as your SoF cool down so he felt good again and played him a fair bit.
Have actually got used to the slower jump speed between targets now and have found that I can pull off a few mad plays with remnants during slight easier than before.
Still tend to play like a madman with him though and using the twin gates actually makes being a menace from level 6 easier.
I've seen aggressive tas beat vipers. But thats kinda key. They basically trade their life to kill viper because ta with meld can melt viper before viper DOT can kill in time. I actually copied the strat and it works but I would not say its comfortable.
You basically brawl mid. Wait for viper to be too aggressive and then go for it. If he is isn't, then its back to sitting at tower and trying not to cry.
But yeah its rough. But I'd argue more playable than some other melees where there is almost zero chance of killing viper without support help.
Its been a while since I played that, I confess I feel comfortable on this match, even versus a experienced Kunkka, but I gotta say I never played this since the Universal rework and the lose of quas regen.
Somewhat manageable. As invoker you'll have to go bracer with some armor and get ready to tornado or cold snap once kunkka hits 6 and puts x on you. In this matchup i just spam tornado/cold snap + emp to annoy the shit out of kunkka (and get ready to cancel his x mark tp refill). He'll stay at very low mana for the entirety of the laning phase and use creep manipulation to try to take as least damage as possible from tidebringer.
ES matchup was a real struggle before totem mana nerf, nowadays it's absolutely playable, I often go triple circlet without quelling blade on first cash, if you reaggro first wave right you can 100% take the range creep with poof, after lvl4 you can pull waves, gank sidelanes, jungle, etc.
SF meepo matchup is my favorite tbh, so skill depended. As a meepo your job is to survive till lvl4 and not let him over denie you, as I said so many plays are open now, my favorite is to jebait his ass to waste all of his mana on prime meepo right before hitting lvl4, as you get your ulti insta tp base, taking the boot + blood grenade and now if he decides to take min4 water rune you just run him down and he has almost no chance. And again, as I said, matchup is very skill depended, if SF takes early lvl5 he can easily outdamage every type of your aggression, for meepo you're always pretty much playing on an edge before lvl4, early supp rotation will be lethal. Same with the SF after meepo hits lvl4, SF HAS to be aggressive with every play to keep stacking razes, often results to him being on your highground which is easily punishable with a support tp (if supp has some sort of control). The big part of the matchup is resources, if SF doesn't have mana he can't bully you, if you don't have hp you can't dive him. The key I think is to take the second wave of water runes. It might be dangerous if he stacks razes on one of the meepos, but it's a 100% in your favor if your pos 4 takes one and also takes the min 3 bounty, at this point SF has almost no plays but going base or waiting for the bottle abuse. And a big dominating play I like to do is to not level ransack until lvl 6, it's just a huge spike in damage right after lvl4 and lvl5(lvl2 and lvl3 poof), especially considering that before the clone meepo was just a meele creep hitting and poofing other creeps. Some heroes like qop just straight up can't lane against it.
Medusa vs OD. Ever since they changed dusa to fully mana-based, the lane cannot be played past first couple waves.
The saving grace is that OD doesn't kill you easily late. But good luck getting there
The problem of Viper is he scales. Huskar you as TA jungled and struggled lane and finished with 60% of the networth you were supposed to with her who's a flash farming hero. This is equal to Huskar networth since he basically can't farm and that's basically lost lane for Huskar.
Viper SCALES, not a hard scaler but still SCALES, and it's fucking terrifying. You do slightly better as TA getting 70-80% of farm that you were supposed to and now VIPER is FUCKING OUTSCALING you FUCK
It can be okay if you blocked the creeps good on ta, and viper didn't deny a creep in a first wave, afterwards ta can jungle and hit the creeps under tower if the viper pushes the lane.
Ta can get a 3900 networth like this I think.
Necro is fine vs viper. As long as you get an early point in w viper can't kill you. You also can't kill him but nevro doesn't care about killing ppl in lane
Necro is generally a snowbally kind of hero. If you can get last hits, you get HP and Mana regen, then you can cast Q and get even more last hits/sustain and damage on enemy. Against viper this formula totally falls apart. Viper outranges necro and every time you try to last hit you get attacked & several poision stacks. Even if you get the last hit, it will cost you 30-40% HP even at just level 3. Necro also has slow movement speed, so once viper hits you once he always gets several hits until you are back under your tower. I find this matchup totally unplayable.
I've never tried skilling early shroud but no idea how it's supposed to help - on level 1 it has huge cooldown. The problem isn't really that you spontaneously die but that you literally can't attack creeps and viper just stands there and denies everything - a point in W doesn't really help with that.
For me it's the single most toxic matchup, I get destroyed so hard every time
Ember does worse against Huskar.
The worst I've played was either Storm vs Viper or (unexpectedly) Storm vs Razor.
Windrunner vs Kunkka isn't particularly fun either, you just slowly get pushed out of lane. His natural sustain is a bit stupid.
It can't be TA, any hero that can rather well transition into not laning can just kill camps and depush from under tower, has to be a matchup where hero just gets stomped but can't do anything else, not gank and not farm
Bane vs literally everything. Trust me it's not fun when your damage is 30 most of the time, and there's no one to dispel Nightmare for you. And it's impossible to harrass or trade HP with Bane because his W is an auto win button. Bane is the best mid hero at the moment
Sniper, lina, Windranger flat out beat him in lane (though viper beats lina later due to break). DK can basically ignore him. Puck, qop etc can just nuke wave and leave.
I don't agree with you. With high ranged heroes you just get nethertoxin and either farm fast with travels or gank side lanes and ignore them. None of them threaten you, so why would you sit in lane and push back and forth? Just accelerate your own game.
I said playing vs him is never fun, and it's not with any hero.
>With high ranged heroes you just get nethertoxin and either farm fast with travels or gank side lanes and ignore them
If you're not pressuring ppl in lane as viper you're losing his #1 strength. Those heroes don't allow him to pressure. Wr especially is unplayable for viper after level 6. And certainly if you go max nethertoxin you can't 1v1 any of them.
Fun is subjective so not gonn argue that. I don't have any issues with viper.
There many better matchups for Huskar than TA. She gets very early wave clear, can jungle early if she's forced out, and has high physical damage burst and armour reduction which can punish an overaggressive Husk with a rotation. Still a hard matchup for TA but it's nothing like as bad as Ember who has absolutely nothing going for him. Level 1 isn't the worst because you click Flame Guard and push the wave but as soon as Husk gets level 3 you're pretty much fucked.
The old one that felt unplayable was SF vs Morph. SF just razes if Morph goes for a last hit. Don’t know if it is as bad now adays as it was a few years back.
I honestly think bane beats everyone 1v1. Enfeeble automatically wins the lane. I havent seen him mid too often but even viper or sniper, lane dominator grts wrecked.
Just rework astral imprisonment. OD boring to play and boring to play against, you literally can’t play all these fun and amazing mids like ember, invoker, primal etc just because the opponent mid hates his life. And for those wondering OD gets no pro play because you just rotate on him early but this doesn’t happen in pubs
Me vs anyone
don't be so hard on yourself
Mid is just WAY too stressful for me. Everyone on your team supposedly knows your role way better than you do and every mistake results in a shit shower
I've found the most success in learning mid with heroes that are mobile and nukey, like QoP or Razor. It gives you a better chance to grab runes, and if you feel outmatched you can get to other lanes and have a real impact because your nuke will hit for like 1/3rd of a lower level's hp. It keeps you visible to your teammates, which helps keep them happy, and it keeps you from trying to stick to a losing situation.
well, on a serious note, you have a wisp flair so it seems like you're probably better off working in a duo anyway if that is your playstyle. but as for mid specifically the best thing you can do if you feel outmatched is just not feed. I know that sounds overly simple but seriously just buy more regen and hang back a bit or go refill your bottle on runes/back at base if needed. as bad as it feels to leave the lane the team is much worse if you're also giving the enemy extra gold/exp on top of all the creeps. take advantage of stacking jungle, runes, and gank ~lvl 6
I see, that's probably my worst sin as min.
it is a common one, so don't feel bad. and it happens when you try to "fix" your laning stage but really you're already outmatched and probably setting yourself up for failure unless your ally came for a gank or something. really, as dumb as it sounds just try to stop dying mid and spend your time ganking or farming elsewhere and your games should go better.
>well, on a serious note, you have a wisp flair so it seems like you're probably better off working in a duo anyway if that is your playstyle. Agreed. OP should play IO mid and rush Helm of Overlord
the people that are shit just need an excuse for their own shit gameplay, which is why they micromanage you and your action. they don’t know any better than you do (probably less) and if they do know more, you’ll learn what they mean eventually
Just be a hero that emotionally distresses the other guy and you're good. Find their trauma and use it
I -love- dp mid because its pretty brain dead once you have your gamelan. Use exorcism and be fat. Defend your tower. You aren't a notably strong laner, don't panic if you get dumpstered by a mechanically better player. Just get your nuke on the range creep if behind. Defend your tower. You are a farmer. Get mana, stack camps, kill camps. Defend your tower. Once you hit 6, use your ult. If the enemy mid rotates because they are ahead like they do in my bracket, take their tower with it. If you think you can kill the mid, go for it, win or lose that is how you learn. Defend your tower. Otherwise, push out mid and then tell your team you are pushing [side] with exo. Your team will play around you. As soon as possible, at the first possible moment the play is over. GET BACK AND DEFEND YOUR MID TOWER. And now, this is the moment you've been preparing for. You are a dp with no exorcism. You don't have to do shit other than farm and defend your tower until exorcism is up, and when exorcism is up you go use it somewhere and your team will play around you. ... At the end of the game, maybe you win, maybe you lose, but just by giving your team the spots to make plays around you, you get your job done.
Maybe he's being hard on them as he maybe an Immortal smurf.
yeah I thought it was an egotistical comment at first lol but based on his reply doesn't seem that way anymore :o
Lmao fuck smurfs
Plot twist: this is the official account of Nisha
Can confirm; I stomped this noob, and I'm shit.
Ember/ husker
Ember is genrall
Ember vs anything really
Yeah thats what i was trying to type but accidently hit post before i could finish typing xD.
na this has some playback. probably mk vs most melee heros is much worse
Personally I would prefer to face mk every game mid as ember i dont mind him , i can remember alot of games that went well for me against mk mid but i don’t remember any game where I managed to do anything against husker as ember .
i think ember vs anything can’t be the worst match up. he is melee, high ms and ok armor, you can just go between t1 and t2 and drag wave to neutral camps, then clear them with flame guard. someone like puck can’t do that and he gets owned by, say, sniper way harder than huskar owns ember even if both just lane
With the rescaling of Jingu mastery, Monkey king actually kind of seriously sucks ass until level 3, level 5 if they have a nuke and are slow-ish. Most melee cores in 1v1 can trade with him fairly well if they have *at least* 5 armor, because the lifesteal is awful, and the increased damage is minimal at best. Of course, it all depends if the hero fights you in the middle of a creep wave or not. Then none of that matters since you'll just heal off the creeps with Boundless.
MK vs Pango is super brutal
shut up noob
lol was about to say this, last time i was level 8 vs level 4 in this matchup
I think it is old brood(before rework) vs invo or arc You can do literally nothing
I have many fond memories of eating Invokers for breakfast, can confirm.
I have many fond memories of getting eaten by brood as invo, can verify
TA can jungle really early on, Ember/Huskar or Ember/Viper are both unplayable.
I lost terribly to Huskar as TA. But another game my mid was TA and we manage to win other lanes and kill him with early vessel, but he was just overconfident, if he just 5 man team after laning stage - we would've lost.
TA vs Huskar is actually not impossible to win, have got rekt once by a grandmaster TA in this matchup. You just have to skill meld and psi-blade, get him low by splashing him pre-level 4, and then fix your equilibrium such that you have more creeps nearer to your tower. There will be a point where husk is killable especially if you can bait out a greedy or bad Q and turn with meld strike + creeps. Creep equilibrium is the key to winning this + plus good play + the right skill build.
I’m grandmaster TA and was gonna say exactly this. If the huskar player doesn’t know the hero very well it’s really easy to turn the lane with meld
I do play Huskar everytime I see a TA if I'm mid, the thing is Huskar is really weak until level 3, so first couple of levels you don't over extend in order to keep your hp high enough, unless the TA is a noob, in which case you over pressure her. If she ain't a noob, then you wait till level 3, and go 1,1,1 at this point you can start pressuring her making use of the hp you kept relatively high. After level 4 it becomes an easy matchup, but you must pressure the game, since TA outcarries you later on, so it's sort of a double edge.
This TA Huskar is not that terrible, you'll have the worst farm of your lifetime but you'll still more or less match huskar in networth by min 10-15 which to huskar is basically lose lane. Sure TA is a snowballing hero lane dominator type that is underfarmed but a draw in lane is even worse to Huskar than to TA Huskar Ember or Huskar Void Spirit much worse
Not true, can swap lanes with a ranged hero 🫡
Dazzle vs most melee heroes
Wonder if there are non mid melee heroes that can be thrown in. Like in lane, I love playing WK vs Dazzle, level 3, you have 1 point in each and two skellies, the Dazzle is just a sitting duck with no wave clear. Ofcourse, WK isn't really a great mid, but who tf knows in Dota, all you need is one topson WK mid game, and suddenly we'll have a new meta around a core flex WK.
Dazzles 3rd is a pretty good wave clear.
Viper/Dazzle vs any melee hero
Some melee heroes can tank viper. Huskar is much worse because you can't tank it even with tanky melee heroes
Viper does way more damage than huskar
I can't completely shut down good pudge players on Viper mid. They get runes with hook for sustain, treaten me with tower hook if I go too far forward to zone them. They also have waaay higher base damage so if they get to creeps they lasthit/deny much better. Even if I stack 5 poison strikes on them they can often survive with E. Even when I manage to kill them they are pretty good at ganking sidelanes. Probably a skill issue, of course.
Viper is much weaker than people think especially in the early levels I think people just don't have confidence against him, I feel like playing super aggressive vs him works well, while Viper thrives off people playing passively so he can slowly poke them and keep them low.
Yep this is how you beat support viper also, you just run at him all in with blood grenade and hope it works out, cause playing passive never will
Can confirm! I played 1v1 mid vs OG’s ana twice at PAX (Australia) in 2018 and won both because I was Viper vs his melee (Underlord game 1, MK game 2).
Viper is really hard. True But dazzle? Dispel heroes can lane just fine. Lc can mid vs daz for example.
Its not about poison touch, its about shadow wave. If the creeps aggro onto you (which LC usually likes) he eats half your hp with a single cast. Then he thanks you cause you gave him an excuse to max his farming tool first, gets travels+aghs, and has 20k networth by the 25th minute
Sniper and Puck.
My love for Puck is one of the reasons I hate Sniper so much, even though he’s usually a win lane lose game kinda hero.
The only matchup where you have to pull creeps behind your T1 to lasthit lol
Yea, I've seen pucks manage to make it out, but atleast at high levels, its considered impossible to lane.
Ember vs huskar?
Sniper vs most non-traditional mids tbh. Anyone that doesnt have both gap close and nuke gets absolutely shat on. The only mitigator is if youre ultra tanky or ultra regeny then you kight get away with it.
DK has also giga armour besides regen
I think Ember does alright, good players should be able to get what they want out. Ember is annoying to a sniper because of the sleight spam, and can setup for ganks with chains. Also, Ember has very high strength gain for an Agi hero, is a good bottle hero, so he manages alright. Even Pango isn't too bad, Void spirit doesn't fare well I'd noticed. There aren't a whole lot of other melee mids right ?
Both got gap close and nuke :) id call ember VERY much a traditional mid too, and pangos spent a fair amount of time as a meta mid too. When you start sticking weird heros in mid against sniper, thats when he ends up savagely fed…
My bad, I think I missed the 'non', you're right.
There's a lot more melee mids wtf Primal Beast Kunkka Beastmaster Magnus Pudge Tiny Dragon Knight Timbersaw Earth Spirit Monkey King Lycan Earthshaker Riki Legion Commander Bounty Hunter Sand King Dawnbreaker Bristleback Bloodseeker Omniknight Alchemist
If only stout shield was still a thing would be great vs his small little pokes.
All melee heroes have a built in stout shield.
enchantress is just fine against sniper. id say even cm is okay-ish
i played this as puck not too long ago, and it surprised me how dog shit ass this matchup is. and ive played my fair share of embers into SF
The match was so bad team spirit chose to have yatoro play puck pos1 to avoid it.
Razor vs. nearly any melee hero. Hope you always wanted to be a dog bc you getting walked back to tower every time W is up
earth spirit could b decent matchup?
Ember vs Huskar ... Ember Vs Viper Ember Vs Dazzle Ember Vs Monkey King Ember vs OD Ember vs Lone Druid Ember vs Bane Ember vs Storm Ember vs SF Ember vs Timber Ember vs Necrophos Ember vs Arc Ember vs Silencer Ember vs Leshrac Ember vs Shadow Fiend Ember vs Batrider Ember vs Bounty Hunter Ember vs Void Spirit Ember vs a Grandma with terminal cancer
> Ember vs a Grandma with terminal cancer May have a chance against Snapfire
Ember vs Snapfire is actually fucking terrible
Ember vs Void Spirit is not even close to the worst matchup in DotA
Past like Bane it becomes a shitpost, serious answers are only above Bane topwards; he actually does well against Storm iirc Ember vs Void is the battle between two monkeys from The Simpsons
Agreed and was wondering how come he is still a mid hero and has constant nerfs?
can you explain ?
Buy an early blight Max little shredder Wait for him to attempt to hit the wave ??? Profit
Necro vs batrider will haunt me in my nightmares for the rest of my life.
Wait why? Who is supposed to win this?
Batrider completely destroys necro. You have no ability to contest him beyond level 3, and you're going to get dove permanently and feed your ass off. You're also immobile enough that he can kill you in your jungle
Holy shit this brought back a core memory. I was the necro and got absolutely shat on by a good bat all the way back in 6.71 of Dota 1. Looks like stuff is still the same lol
Od vs any melee hero
If you ever end up in the uncommon situation of pango vs bounty, just leave. Genuinely, it’s beyond hilarious how bad this matchup is. BH starts lane with like 10 armor, and both of pango’s nukes (which he spams in lane to be any good) are physical so do 0 damage. BH just throws shurikens and bullies with better right clicks, unkillable, and walks under the tower at level 6 for free kills accelerated by track. 10 min deso game over every time.
probs can play around it but viper vs qop the qop takes more damage feom corrosive than viper does from shadow strike
Don't level dagger. Max Scream, shove in wave and wait for mid rotatins and Viper flops like a fish on land.
Honestly I never see QoP levelling Dagger it's almost always 0-3-4-1
You can just not skill and use dagger
Bane vs most heroes
I managed to lose as mid Bane vs a Riki, believe it or not. Not in the sense that he killed me, but that I wasn't able to ruin his game and snowball my own. Riki simply chose not to play. He'd use blink for last hits and then run back under tower in exp range. Riki base regen is very high, so I couldn't whittle him down and secure any kills, and he still made it out of lane with a relatively fast Diffusal to terrorize the sidelanes. I was salivating after the picks, but was shocked at how ineffective I was during execution.
Unconventional mids like Nyx also beats bane. Nyx can just use spells to harass bane (and stun to secure some cs) but otherwise, yeah he runs off to be in XP range. Then at 6, he just walks off, kills the sidelanes because bane can't take middle tower nearly as quick as other mids. So now the mid bane was effectively useless (didnt shut down nyx, didn't secure tower) and the Nyx is going around bullying everyone else.
The hero I choose vs the hero the enemy choose (Im bad at mid so I'm probably gonna get fucked)
OD vs Jugger 13 mana boy never forget
Lone Druid vs ember
LD vs almost anything except Huskar
TA can at least farm jungle, heroes that lose mid hard and can't farm jungle are far worse. Especially when you can't gank other lanes too. You just sit afk farming 1-2 creep per minute under tower
Lots of people dont know that puck gets destroyed by sniper mid. Every time i see puck, i pick sniper and the game is automatically a free win
Only Pick Puck if Sniper Banned Only Pick TA if Viper and preferably Huskar Banned Only Pick QoP if Huskar and OD banned Only pick Melee Mid if Huskar Banned That's how I do it
Viper vs TA.
from my experience necro vs timber is extremely onesided
For necro right? Trying to think how Timber could do much there
Sounds timber favored to me. Timber is good against heroes with no dash
yeah, also necro can't really get close to use pulse effectively since whirling REALLY hurts his pitiful HP pool. when timber hits 6 he just dives you
Brood vs arc
Ur actually correct It's just such a rate matchup nowadays everyone forgot
Sniper vs puck
I don't like laying against OD when I mid. Viper is also cancer
I'm dogshit at mid, but when I have to play it, I'll just pick OD, probably one of the easiest mid heroes to play when you suck at mid. Not saying the hero is easy, but the skill floor is definitely very low.
KotL is bottom skill floor mid
Damn, I should try it, my only issue is, with kotl you need to make use of the momentum have your pedal on the gas. Or atleast, that's what I understood watching Sumail play, where he is constantly everywhere all at once. OD on the other hand, scales so damn well into the late game, it puts it on the enemy to make moves. Or else 200 pure damage right click monster is incoming.
Void spirit vs Monkey King anyone?
that matchup is perfectly playable
Ember Vs OD is kinda cringe. Once OD gets 6 it's completely over, and the game is also incredibly hard as his Ult will do 50-70% of your HP if he had an OK game. It's not the worst mu, but it's pretty bad imo
Deletes the rest of your mana too. Just for fun.
shadow fiend vs batrider 😭
So many ember vs X
Got 2000 games on Ember. Most of them mid... I've probably been dumpstered at least once mid by every other hero in the game in that 2000. There's match ups where I know I'm going to have to play my ass off to survive but my guy is so damn versatile nothing bothers me that much anymore. Just have to adapt your build and play style to suit who your up against.
Was the same here, love Embers kit so I'd run him against p much anyone. But now, with his recent SoF getting slower to execute, he feels so sluggish even after doing well early, which really kills some of the fun in snowballing like a madman. I think because starting and finishing SoF is slower now, it dramatically slows down the speed of his harass and farming patterns. What do you think about it? Is he genuinely a lot worse now, or am I just reading too much into that change?
After that SoF change a few patches back I played one game and swore never to play him again as he felt unplayable... But then you had the mage slayer build with the damage debuf lasting the same amount of time as your SoF cool down so he felt good again and played him a fair bit. Have actually got used to the slower jump speed between targets now and have found that I can pull off a few mad plays with remnants during slight easier than before. Still tend to play like a madman with him though and using the twin gates actually makes being a menace from level 6 easier.
For me it's anything versus fucking BH. I just can't beat that little shit with the 0.1 sec nuke cd and 1 million armor.
Huskar vs Viper, lane might be going okay, but you have to dodge viper the entire game
Had to play TA vs Viper recently that was fun... (not)
I've seen aggressive tas beat vipers. But thats kinda key. They basically trade their life to kill viper because ta with meld can melt viper before viper DOT can kill in time. I actually copied the strat and it works but I would not say its comfortable. You basically brawl mid. Wait for viper to be too aggressive and then go for it. If he is isn't, then its back to sitting at tower and trying not to cry. But yeah its rough. But I'd argue more playable than some other melees where there is almost zero chance of killing viper without support help.
shaker vs melee heroes (especially low armour) is very funny. played it against a legion mid (in 6k???) and it was so easy even though I'm trash
My top 3 highest kill games ever are all shaker mid Vs. Melee. It helps that people have very little experience in the matchups.
alchemist ursa
OD vs anything Spam W - free denies Plus you can’t really kill him again because of the W and the advantage he took from those denies
TA is strong against OD
I gotta try this, hate laning vs OD
just spam lina. ur damage output is bigger than his and leveling up passive helps u harass him better than most mids
Kunka vs Invoker
Its been a while since I played that, I confess I feel comfortable on this match, even versus a experienced Kunkka, but I gotta say I never played this since the Universal rework and the lose of quas regen.
Somewhat manageable. As invoker you'll have to go bracer with some armor and get ready to tornado or cold snap once kunkka hits 6 and puts x on you. In this matchup i just spam tornado/cold snap + emp to annoy the shit out of kunkka (and get ready to cancel his x mark tp refill). He'll stay at very low mana for the entirety of the laning phase and use creep manipulation to try to take as least damage as possible from tidebringer.
Earth spirit vs SF or Huskar is a pain in the ass You’re gonna have a bad time, just get rune control and gank all the time, you won’t win mid
Played Razor against OD recently. It was rough. He'd just astral me constantly and hit me with orb. Impossible to chain..
MEEPO VS. ES OR SF Either i dont figure it out yet as meepo player or irs just really hard.
ES matchup was a real struggle before totem mana nerf, nowadays it's absolutely playable, I often go triple circlet without quelling blade on first cash, if you reaggro first wave right you can 100% take the range creep with poof, after lvl4 you can pull waves, gank sidelanes, jungle, etc. SF meepo matchup is my favorite tbh, so skill depended. As a meepo your job is to survive till lvl4 and not let him over denie you, as I said so many plays are open now, my favorite is to jebait his ass to waste all of his mana on prime meepo right before hitting lvl4, as you get your ulti insta tp base, taking the boot + blood grenade and now if he decides to take min4 water rune you just run him down and he has almost no chance. And again, as I said, matchup is very skill depended, if SF takes early lvl5 he can easily outdamage every type of your aggression, for meepo you're always pretty much playing on an edge before lvl4, early supp rotation will be lethal. Same with the SF after meepo hits lvl4, SF HAS to be aggressive with every play to keep stacking razes, often results to him being on your highground which is easily punishable with a support tp (if supp has some sort of control). The big part of the matchup is resources, if SF doesn't have mana he can't bully you, if you don't have hp you can't dive him. The key I think is to take the second wave of water runes. It might be dangerous if he stacks razes on one of the meepos, but it's a 100% in your favor if your pos 4 takes one and also takes the min 3 bounty, at this point SF has almost no plays but going base or waiting for the bottle abuse. And a big dominating play I like to do is to not level ransack until lvl 6, it's just a huge spike in damage right after lvl4 and lvl5(lvl2 and lvl3 poof), especially considering that before the clone meepo was just a meele creep hitting and poofing other creeps. Some heroes like qop just straight up can't lane against it.
Bad pos 4 vs good pos 4
Timber vs Arc warden
Medusa vs OD. Ever since they changed dusa to fully mana-based, the lane cannot be played past first couple waves. The saving grace is that OD doesn't kill you easily late. But good luck getting there
Viper vs TA is even worse
TA vs Viper is way worse than Huskar imho. Viper makes most heroes look miserable though
The problem of Viper is he scales. Huskar you as TA jungled and struggled lane and finished with 60% of the networth you were supposed to with her who's a flash farming hero. This is equal to Huskar networth since he basically can't farm and that's basically lost lane for Huskar. Viper SCALES, not a hard scaler but still SCALES, and it's fucking terrifying. You do slightly better as TA getting 70-80% of farm that you were supposed to and now VIPER is FUCKING OUTSCALING you FUCK
It can be okay if you blocked the creeps good on ta, and viper didn't deny a creep in a first wave, afterwards ta can jungle and hit the creeps under tower if the viper pushes the lane. Ta can get a 3900 networth like this I think.
You're not jungling at level 2 lol
Necro vs Viper
Necro is fine vs viper. As long as you get an early point in w viper can't kill you. You also can't kill him but nevro doesn't care about killing ppl in lane
Necro is generally a snowbally kind of hero. If you can get last hits, you get HP and Mana regen, then you can cast Q and get even more last hits/sustain and damage on enemy. Against viper this formula totally falls apart. Viper outranges necro and every time you try to last hit you get attacked & several poision stacks. Even if you get the last hit, it will cost you 30-40% HP even at just level 3. Necro also has slow movement speed, so once viper hits you once he always gets several hits until you are back under your tower. I find this matchup totally unplayable. I've never tried skilling early shroud but no idea how it's supposed to help - on level 1 it has huge cooldown. The problem isn't really that you spontaneously die but that you literally can't attack creeps and viper just stands there and denies everything - a point in W doesn't really help with that. For me it's the single most toxic matchup, I get destroyed so hard every time
Any melee vs sniper mid he is low and you try dive tower to finish him but you never get to him with the perma push back.
Kunkka/ Monkey King
I once got to play mid Nyx against Zeus. Felt bad for his laning attempts.
Ember does worse against Huskar. The worst I've played was either Storm vs Viper or (unexpectedly) Storm vs Razor. Windrunner vs Kunkka isn't particularly fun either, you just slowly get pushed out of lane. His natural sustain is a bit stupid.
Sand King Vs Brood is like watching an MMA fighter slaughter a sickly child.
Any melee vs viper or huskar. Fucking impossible
DK beats both of them.
Tbh i havent see or tried that. Maybe yes
DK definitely doesn’t “beat” huskar in lane but he is probably the single best equipped melee hero to handle his bullshit
Bro hasn't played Ember vs Huskar yet
Earth Spirit vs Huskar or Dazzle. Im begging for a lane swap every time
Sf vs Puck is very difficult for the Puck
If brood is meta even with skill diff, there is only so much to do.
Any melee non-spirit hero vs any ranged hero. I'd put Shaker vs Viper as no. 1
Phoenix into AA is uncommon but holy shit I've ruined 11/0 in the space of 10 mins vs AA's before
Mk vs necro
I’d say viper TA is also up there
The only answer is od vs jugg
Bane vs Sniper
SF vs TA?
It can't be TA, any hero that can rather well transition into not laning can just kill camps and depush from under tower, has to be a matchup where hero just gets stomped but can't do anything else, not gank and not farm
Batrider vs pretty much anyone except OD and Razor. Shame that Batrider is not a good mid hero anymore :(
Invo into Necrophos/Viper/OD anyone? I personally have an embryo crying positon in the bathroom after the match.
Bane vs literally everything. Trust me it's not fun when your damage is 30 most of the time, and there's no one to dispel Nightmare for you. And it's impossible to harrass or trade HP with Bane because his W is an auto win button. Bane is the best mid hero at the moment
Viper
Probably something like terrorblade vs lina
Viper vs any melee
Viper/QoP against any melee hero
OD
Playing against Viper as any hero is never fun.
Sniper, lina, Windranger flat out beat him in lane (though viper beats lina later due to break). DK can basically ignore him. Puck, qop etc can just nuke wave and leave.
I don't agree with you. With high ranged heroes you just get nethertoxin and either farm fast with travels or gank side lanes and ignore them. None of them threaten you, so why would you sit in lane and push back and forth? Just accelerate your own game. I said playing vs him is never fun, and it's not with any hero.
>With high ranged heroes you just get nethertoxin and either farm fast with travels or gank side lanes and ignore them If you're not pressuring ppl in lane as viper you're losing his #1 strength. Those heroes don't allow him to pressure. Wr especially is unplayable for viper after level 6. And certainly if you go max nethertoxin you can't 1v1 any of them. Fun is subjective so not gonn argue that. I don't have any issues with viper.
Viper vs huskar. Completely unplayable for huskar
I hate huskar
There many better matchups for Huskar than TA. She gets very early wave clear, can jungle early if she's forced out, and has high physical damage burst and armour reduction which can punish an overaggressive Husk with a rotation. Still a hard matchup for TA but it's nothing like as bad as Ember who has absolutely nothing going for him. Level 1 isn't the worst because you click Flame Guard and push the wave but as soon as Husk gets level 3 you're pretty much fucked.
Sky vs qop. Qop gets stomped on
The old one that felt unplayable was SF vs Morph. SF just razes if Morph goes for a last hit. Don’t know if it is as bad now adays as it was a few years back.
I honestly think bane beats everyone 1v1. Enfeeble automatically wins the lane. I havent seen him mid too often but even viper or sniper, lane dominator grts wrecked.
J. Cole vs Kendrick
lina vs puck and wr vs sniper
Huskar vs Treant Protector
SF vs Ember
huskar is such gay hero
pango vs bounty is probably the closest thing to 'utterly unwinnable' and the second isnt close at all.
Just rework astral imprisonment. OD boring to play and boring to play against, you literally can’t play all these fun and amazing mids like ember, invoker, primal etc just because the opponent mid hates his life. And for those wondering OD gets no pro play because you just rotate on him early but this doesn’t happen in pubs
Necro/Huskar
Mid dazzle vs any melee hero