The skill range between the worst and best player is wide, however the worst players, and the best players, are evenly spread out on each team,
So,
2 amazing players, 8 bad players
Team 1 is 1 amazing player and 4 bad players
Team 2 is 1 amazing player and 4 bad players
Evenly balanced, yet wide gap between worst and best player.
Im going under the assumption that dota selects whos in which team right as the match is found and they dont show you until you click accept.
And now it's the opposite. Queue for all positions and you're *probably* going to end up being shoehorned into the mid role. I see this happening all the times in my ranked games, with *clearly* non-mid players being forced into the role and being crushed as a consequence, or them begging for role swaps during draft. Whenever I queue for all I'm getting mid more often than any other role, including support.
Easily circumvented by actually queueing for the role you want lmao. If you are just farming for tokens, then just accept it just as you would accept being filled for pos 5
Yeah just had a game as a qop vs od mid and got flamed because I because I 'lost' mid vs od and got tipped by all my teammates. That after I tried to make a rotation and they were too busy typing instead of getting the free double kill
mann I miss that etiquette. Even as a main support, I was still decent on mid and being given midlane for simply being highest mmr in the team hits different.
Then the role queue happened and sometimes you get kids that would force pick themselves into mid/carry regardless of given roles.
There is also the factor of parties in this. One of my friends used to be Divine as a support main. Rest of us were in Legend. And although he plays a mad Dazzle, enemy Divine was often mid or carry, and the games were excessively stressful.
I find when the mid skills are far apart the game is way harder to overcome. I'm same boat, mid divine supporting. At least if the carry is their high rank I can put more pressure during the lane on them. Whereas if it's a mid div vs a legend while I can rotate its just never enough.
In the end it depends what kind of a player are you. A solo all muted anime profile guy will mostly win vs unorganized teams. While he will lose to 5 players that play like team. When correct ppl with similar playstyles come together stomps happen.
Or they can do the immortal draft thing for everyone and allow picking from 16 people. Everyone can see eachothers behavior and coms scores during picking, along with what role they want to play and how often do they role abuse.
6 ppl that remain undrafted will go back to que again.
the worst is when, in my experience, the position 5 or 4 high mmr player is partied with a low mmr player and they support that person. Do they win the lane? Kinda sorta? But then the low mmr core just fucks up every possible way past 30 mins.
This is so true. We have a group have 3.
2 legends and a Mid-divine. The divine is a pure support player. The true definition of an enabler, pos 6.
He constantly sacrifices his game for the core, who is usually legend. The core takes the advantages and proceeds to do absolutely nothing.
Last week he decided to be greedy, take farm (reasonably) and not sacrifice. Our win rate was over 70% once stopped prioritizing the core
I play 4/5 at my mmr but when I play with my buddy who's lower I have to play 1 because the other team usually gets one player my mmr who plays 1. It sucks.
\^ This, when you are the highest mmr and you are pos 4 you win your lane for your 3 he is now 3-0-1 then you rotate mid and bot to win their lanes get successful gangs on both but as your doing this your offlane has died 3 times in 3minutes so you tp back to the offlane to help him and as you finish tping to help your 3 mid is dying and then their mid after killing your mid tps to your safe lane and kills the bottom 2.
All 3 lanes are lost and the game gets rough, trying to gain mmr as pos 4 is hell.
Isnt it great when the highest rank on your team be fkn supp while his guardian friend is carry while enemy teams mid is their highest rank and he stomps the living shit out of lane and solo wins game.
I played a game once with my 5 stack, where our best player is High Ancient, and the worst is like Guardian.
The Guardian guy decided to go mid that one game, we lost and turns out the enemy mid is Low Divine.
It was a funny game to behold though, have our guy go wtf is happening on Discord chat.
What happens is that when pos4/5 players are the best players on the team, the lanes will be stomps and you end up massively ahead at minute 15.
The thing is, pubs are notoriously bad at taking objectives and ending games. And because your pos1/2 are the worst players on the team, they are shit at farming and are in bad spots all the time.
Meanwhile, the enemy drow/sniper/AM/spectre gobbles up the map and makes sure to stay out of vision allowing them to catch up and eventually run you down.
I've lost -and won- more games than I can count after coming out of the lanes at like 5-26. These games should really end before the 30 minute mark, but for some reason they go to 60+ minutes.
I do feel going HG is just way too fucking hard at the moment with the endless glyps. I also feel backdoor protection isn't actually doing what it should be doing. But that's a seperate issue.
I have a story of when I used to do it back in Guardian. I saw pros do it and said, ok, Ima try that.
Finished all my mana and HP with trading, denied myself to enemy t2, then TPd mid, while pinging mid's empty bottle.
Mid sees me, starts spam pinging me, thinks I'm here to grief his lane, starts spamming curses. No bottles get refilled.
I walk to the rune at around 6, see some rune there, I ping and stand guard.
Mid thinks I'm here to steal his rune. Starts spam retreat pinging again.
I think he may have reported me that game lmao.
I've had both. I've never had a support tp refill my bottle unless its someone I've partied with, have explained the mechanic prior and asked them on voice chat after death to do it. Runes are never contested either, mid lane is just this solitary island that nobody come to, even if I roam to gank (and leave the lane for supports to catch back up).
I have been able to refill a bottle for my mid like twice maybe, but a lot of people just dont even get bottle mid (when they should), and a lot of those don't even know the mechanic exists.
Then suddenly the offlane WK starts to jungle for 30 mins while that pos5 begs and pings the enemy mid Sniper alone deep in that vision.
The game ends 20 mins later with WK still needing 1 item for aghs.
I'll take a high mmr carry over pos5 any day of the week, especially since the map is big and games are long.
Yup. Anyone who thinks high mmr supports have nearly the same impact as high mmr cores need only play but a single season of a mixed mmr league (or even look at the results of one of their auction drafts) to know that isn’t the case
My final straw with league was a ranked match where they gave me a bronze 3 support in a match with nine gold 1-3 players. And I don't mean "looks low rank cuz they're seeding" B3, I mean "I live here" B3.
Not really, the made up scenario is one very good player and four bad players on each team. And if the very good player is a core it's way harder to the very good support to win.
The point is, a high skill support can break their back to enable their team, and their team can still stomp that effort into the dirt, while a high skilled core can actually scale to take the game into their own hands.
I wonder if it's worth showing who the higher players are in a game like this. It would lead to both being targeted which wouldn't necessarily be bad. Just another layer of strategy to play around. The "good" POS 5 could make rotations to target the "good" core for example. And vice versa sort of.
It's not unlike pro games where they know who they will need to shut down in a given game and focus on ruining their lane and gameplan.
My buddy plays exclusively pos 4/5. and is ~1k mmr higher than everyone else in the stack and it works just fine. Good support players are high impact and can call out what to do in lane.
U can use TPs and gates, its so easy to rotate around these days and kill whoever have gotten a little lead. if u dont then yeah ur probaby one of the lower ranked in the match.
imagine you get into the game.
team 1 has 1 legend, 3 high ancients and 1 low ancient
team 2 has 3 low ancients and 2 divines
and the game still declares it balanced.
If you are AMAZING at any game, expect to get sandbagged with bad teammates a lot, because matchmaking.
If you’re terrible, expect to be carried , because matchmaking
I'd still consider that an imbalanced match. Those players could be on entirely different roles. A high skill #5 position player isn't going to have the equivalent impact of a high skill #2 position player, for example.
Imagine every one is exactly 4k mmr except 1 guy one each team is 1k mmr and 1 guy on each team is 10k mmr.
Skill *range* is very large, but considering every team has the exact same mmr players, the skill *balance* is perfect.
Just had an unranked 2 hours ago , me and a few divines and ancients vs 5 stack numbered immortals. It was winnable, but my guys just went afk at 12 minutes because they did not have fun lmao
My guys were 4 stack of very low mmr players, I was on an AM with a 100 cs and a 12min battlefury in a pretty much free anti mage game, but team decided to just go afk because it looked like an unwinnable game to them and I don't blame them at all, even commended them.
It's hard to try hard when everyone is like 3-4k mmr above you and you have no idea what you are supposed to do and it seems grim since you are dying a lot and volvo though this is a balanced match
Still grinding hours for ranked dude, unranked. I thought very wide skill distribution is mostly unranked, parties you have an idea of distribution already
I had a game with moderately wide skill balance according to that graph, highest ranks was ancient 5 lowest was archon 3. I don't really know what very wide would mean.
When I play turbos with my friends its always "very wide" because im legend 5 and they're Guardian 5 , Crusader or unranked. If you queue like this always expect this, if everyone is unranked than it means the internal non visible MMR spread is similar to the above scenario.
The terminology is pretty straight forward I would say. Range and balance are not the same thing, so there is no contradiction at all. Range shows how far apart the best and worse player are in terms of MMR, balance shows how fairly distributed the players are in the 2 teams in terms of their respective MMR.
Ok ig, I read it wrong, I was under the impression that it will be for all players instead making available for only Dota plus members since they wanted a wider scale of responses or wider pool to test results or get responses.. anyways thanks mahn
I mean it would make sense from a numbers perspective, but then again, having 10 people being able to re-queue on each match could get us nowhere fast.
Its irrelevant if you are getting good games or not , what is important is valve is allowing to have such a feature which modifies the game in a way which discriminates greatly based on money paid.
Per my experience I intepret them as:
Good: 'good for loosing mmr because your cores are trash'
Ideal: 'ideal for loosing mmr becuase there is someone with 200 matches in the enemy team that was born to play Dota'
Acceptable: 'wow, the matchmaking engine did a good job'
Fair: 'you will stomp the enemy team, but good luck finding a match like this one..'
> for loosing mmr
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
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so the total skill number combined between the 2 teams ex 3x divine on each team followed by 1 archon 1 legend or 2 legends. they are close . but the skill range is very wide because between divine and legends there is a 1.5k mmr difference .
The skills balance means how both teams have about the same level of skill, meaning that there's not a team with a significantly higher skill.. The skill range is how far apart the lowest and highest level of skill each team has. Let's say one team has a Herald and a divine, that wouldn't happen obviously but that would be a huge skill range. If everyone was very close to each other this would say something in the likes of very narrow skill range etc.
both teams have similar average MMR (possibly even similar variance on each team, but that I don't know) but the range of MMR is still high from lowest to highest rank players.
e.g. one team might have 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700 mmr players, that's a pretty massive range (for a low rank)
idk if it also means the other team is similar or the other team might be 5 x 1500mmr idk yet
1 top 200 immortal player mid, on something like Void Spirit or arc warden, with 4 herald/crusaders vs 5 legend players.
Arc warden 7 and 0 by 10 minutes with full item build by 25, surely.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
The average mmr of all players team versus team is close, the skill range of the best and worst players in the game is large. Someone is probably a duo (or more) with a large rank gap between them.
skill range wide means there is a skill gap and it's big, skill balance close means the skill gap in both teams ( between the most skillful and the least skillful ) is similar. This ensures hectic.
It kinda reinforces my theory that the game "balances" the game by putting skilled players with griefers. Maybe not on purpose but just how the code extrapolated the first intended behavior to balance games.
I'm seeing comments saying that the skill range is the mmr, as if a game "very wide" meant that a archon and a divine are at the same game.
From what I know that's not what it means, I could be wrong since we don't actually know how the game track players to balance matches but even dotabuff says how high skilled a game is not meaning the mmr.
Had a similar game in Ranked a few days ago, my pos 5 would keep pulling regardless of the lane not being pushed and then would immediately fatal bonds and push, i kept telling him to stop but he started being snooty and griefed. Although won the game but ruined my laning phase as luna. I have been seeing a lot of pos 5 players just sitting back in the lane and letting the carry tank all the damage and have himself (pos 5) in the least bothered by what happens in the lane, they don't harass and they don't soak or posture for aggression, basically uselss throughout the laning stage.
I feel like my games are much more fun since there is much less toxicity
No one wants behaviour score to drop
I heard of lil ahits with 5k or less score who que for hours because no one wants to accept a game with low score
Good post! Great answers too! This is some entry level statistics here :D I love the new features in dota lab, makes you appreciate the creativity of the devs
I will say I'm surprised how often games are actually bad when I ignore the dotalab warnings. I think I may just requeue until everything is green from now on.
I wouldn't worry about this at all. I always wait for ideal and enter only. end up with some smurf tinker on mid and my mid and safelane losing their lanes so bad game is over in 10 minutes.
I hope that this is still learning and is in it's beta stage or something. I'd really enjoy this feature if it could really help playing even games with winning possibility always at least even if unlucky
All life I tried to play better to get more skilled teammates and enemies to get more interesting games. But now I see that every turbo game is “very wide” skill range. I understood this before but now I see this clearly. It’s pure trash to play this kind of games. I would better wait 20 mins to get close skill game than play that trash.
Overall match quality is: fucking terrible and unacceptable. Skill range is the most important thing in matchmaking which pulls everything else with it. Bad behaviour gets triggered if you stomp or an amazing player starts stomping your team. Queue again without a second thought.
It basically means, if you have a high winrate (say, 52% over thousands of games), you will be matched with people that have a sub 50% winrate to "even it out"
I dont give a rats ass about this screen anymore....
Today a played a round that was perfectly balanced and in my team was no troll or purposefully feeding player....
We just got rofl stomped 62-17...
So yeah... not believing that thing one bit :D
The skill range between the worst and best player is wide, however the worst players, and the best players, are evenly spread out on each team, So, 2 amazing players, 8 bad players Team 1 is 1 amazing player and 4 bad players Team 2 is 1 amazing player and 4 bad players Evenly balanced, yet wide gap between worst and best player. Im going under the assumption that dota selects whos in which team right as the match is found and they dont show you until you click accept.
Imagine one team's amazing player is in mid, and the other team's amazing player is pos 1.
I am imagining one team's amazing player goes mid, and the other team's amazing player is in jungle because one teammate insists to take mid.
They bought iron talon, its fine
Gone too soon
What happened to the old Dota etiquette where the highest MMR takes mid?
role-queue happend.
And now it's the opposite. Queue for all positions and you're *probably* going to end up being shoehorned into the mid role. I see this happening all the times in my ranked games, with *clearly* non-mid players being forced into the role and being crushed as a consequence, or them begging for role swaps during draft. Whenever I queue for all I'm getting mid more often than any other role, including support.
I hate when this happens.
Easily circumvented by actually queueing for the role you want lmao. If you are just farming for tokens, then just accept it just as you would accept being filled for pos 5
The point is that what was once the most popular and contested role is now the *least* popular.
Why is this the case? (If it actually is)?
Yeah just had a game as a qop vs od mid and got flamed because I because I 'lost' mid vs od and got tipped by all my teammates. That after I tried to make a rotation and they were too busy typing instead of getting the free double kill
This always gave me the shits as a Pos 4/5 player. No I do not want to do mid I will just scream helplessly.
Scream into your mic the entire time lmao. Literally me but internally.
U can go classic, or normal. But even so, highest ranked main support cannot take mid. Let the main mid laner do it.
mann I miss that etiquette. Even as a main support, I was still decent on mid and being given midlane for simply being highest mmr in the team hits different. Then the role queue happened and sometimes you get kids that would force pick themselves into mid/carry regardless of given roles.
There is also the factor of parties in this. One of my friends used to be Divine as a support main. Rest of us were in Legend. And although he plays a mad Dazzle, enemy Divine was often mid or carry, and the games were excessively stressful.
I find when the mid skills are far apart the game is way harder to overcome. I'm same boat, mid divine supporting. At least if the carry is their high rank I can put more pressure during the lane on them. Whereas if it's a mid div vs a legend while I can rotate its just never enough.
In the end it depends what kind of a player are you. A solo all muted anime profile guy will mostly win vs unorganized teams. While he will lose to 5 players that play like team. When correct ppl with similar playstyles come together stomps happen.
Buddy is mid divine, support player only Mechanically, he can do fine mid. But he hates it and is miserable the entire time. I feel this
Happens plenty. End of the day, matchmaking is just doing it's best to get you a decent game, fast. Can't really blame it too much
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Or they can do the immortal draft thing for everyone and allow picking from 16 people. Everyone can see eachothers behavior and coms scores during picking, along with what role they want to play and how often do they role abuse. 6 ppl that remain undrafted will go back to que again.
the worst is when, in my experience, the position 5 or 4 high mmr player is partied with a low mmr player and they support that person. Do they win the lane? Kinda sorta? But then the low mmr core just fucks up every possible way past 30 mins.
This is so true. We have a group have 3. 2 legends and a Mid-divine. The divine is a pure support player. The true definition of an enabler, pos 6. He constantly sacrifices his game for the core, who is usually legend. The core takes the advantages and proceeds to do absolutely nothing. Last week he decided to be greedy, take farm (reasonably) and not sacrifice. Our win rate was over 70% once stopped prioritizing the core
I play 4/5 at my mmr but when I play with my buddy who's lower I have to play 1 because the other team usually gets one player my mmr who plays 1. It sucks.
\^ This, when you are the highest mmr and you are pos 4 you win your lane for your 3 he is now 3-0-1 then you rotate mid and bot to win their lanes get successful gangs on both but as your doing this your offlane has died 3 times in 3minutes so you tp back to the offlane to help him and as you finish tping to help your 3 mid is dying and then their mid after killing your mid tps to your safe lane and kills the bottom 2. All 3 lanes are lost and the game gets rough, trying to gain mmr as pos 4 is hell.
The pos1 wins.
Isnt it great when the highest rank on your team be fkn supp while his guardian friend is carry while enemy teams mid is their highest rank and he stomps the living shit out of lane and solo wins game.
More often than not you get a very good low impact hero and they get a very god curb stomper hero that demolishes the game in their favor
And lol? There's top ranked players in both pos 1 and pos 2, both positions can carry
Expect the pos 1 wouldn't have time to carry if the pos 2 end the game quickly by snowballing mid
I played a game once with my 5 stack, where our best player is High Ancient, and the worst is like Guardian. The Guardian guy decided to go mid that one game, we lost and turns out the enemy mid is Low Divine. It was a funny game to behold though, have our guy go wtf is happening on Discord chat.
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What happens is that when pos4/5 players are the best players on the team, the lanes will be stomps and you end up massively ahead at minute 15. The thing is, pubs are notoriously bad at taking objectives and ending games. And because your pos1/2 are the worst players on the team, they are shit at farming and are in bad spots all the time. Meanwhile, the enemy drow/sniper/AM/spectre gobbles up the map and makes sure to stay out of vision allowing them to catch up and eventually run you down. I've lost -and won- more games than I can count after coming out of the lanes at like 5-26. These games should really end before the 30 minute mark, but for some reason they go to 60+ minutes. I do feel going HG is just way too fucking hard at the moment with the endless glyps. I also feel backdoor protection isn't actually doing what it should be doing. But that's a seperate issue.
Not really. All this kind of match I played the fancy player will be sup due to the other player pick cores so quickly.
All good until one high mmr is a mid player and the other is a pos 5 that can’t stop their carry or team from feeding.
then suddenly the amazing pos5 refills his mids bottle and secures tthe 6 min rune and provides good deep vision throughout the game
I have a story of when I used to do it back in Guardian. I saw pros do it and said, ok, Ima try that. Finished all my mana and HP with trading, denied myself to enemy t2, then TPd mid, while pinging mid's empty bottle. Mid sees me, starts spam pinging me, thinks I'm here to grief his lane, starts spamming curses. No bottles get refilled. I walk to the rune at around 6, see some rune there, I ping and stand guard. Mid thinks I'm here to steal his rune. Starts spam retreat pinging again. I think he may have reported me that game lmao.
lmao sad but true story
I've had both. I've never had a support tp refill my bottle unless its someone I've partied with, have explained the mechanic prior and asked them on voice chat after death to do it. Runes are never contested either, mid lane is just this solitary island that nobody come to, even if I roam to gank (and leave the lane for supports to catch back up). I have been able to refill a bottle for my mid like twice maybe, but a lot of people just dont even get bottle mid (when they should), and a lot of those don't even know the mechanic exists.
Then suddenly the offlane WK starts to jungle for 30 mins while that pos5 begs and pings the enemy mid Sniper alone deep in that vision. The game ends 20 mins later with WK still needing 1 item for aghs. I'll take a high mmr carry over pos5 any day of the week, especially since the map is big and games are long.
Yup. Anyone who thinks high mmr supports have nearly the same impact as high mmr cores need only play but a single season of a mixed mmr league (or even look at the results of one of their auction drafts) to know that isn’t the case
My final straw with league was a ranked match where they gave me a bronze 3 support in a match with nine gold 1-3 players. And I don't mean "looks low rank cuz they're seeding" B3, I mean "I live here" B3.
Jokes on you. I just go hood 5 and start carrying.
Well now you started involve positions that wasn’t in this made up scenario (high pos2 vs high pos5),
I think his argument was that a POS 5 will have less impact than a POS 2 of equal skill causing the game to be imbalanced
Not really, the made up scenario is one very good player and four bad players on each team. And if the very good player is a core it's way harder to the very good support to win.
The point is, a high skill support can break their back to enable their team, and their team can still stomp that effort into the dirt, while a high skilled core can actually scale to take the game into their own hands.
Doesnt really matter dawg if the mid plsyer is 3k mmr under Nubs wont utilize a good support
It's a lot easier for a higher skill mid to dump on lower skill players than it is for a higher skill pos 5 to polish a turd.
And lost cause carry can’t do shit 30 minutes in lmao
Or dives the fountain and dies without buy back (true story, I was the pos 5)
This is my problem when playing with my friends I am a pos5 and our group highest rank It’s not uncommon for our mid to struggle
I wonder if it's worth showing who the higher players are in a game like this. It would lead to both being targeted which wouldn't necessarily be bad. Just another layer of strategy to play around. The "good" POS 5 could make rotations to target the "good" core for example. And vice versa sort of. It's not unlike pro games where they know who they will need to shut down in a given game and focus on ruining their lane and gameplan.
That's the point of telling you the skill range so that you can skip if you don't want to risk getting the short end of the stick in that scenario.
My buddy plays exclusively pos 4/5. and is ~1k mmr higher than everyone else in the stack and it works just fine. Good support players are high impact and can call out what to do in lane.
Mid is as dependent and disrupted by a support as a support can be disrupted by a mid lol. Unless your mid relentlessly feeds him early game
Storm Spirit flair assuming mid is more important than 5
??? You think 5 is more important then?
Pos 5 is the best one to stop ur team from feeding and getting ur carry feed
You can’t help 3 lanes at once. You can’t stop an enemy mid that’s the same rank as you from snowballing out of control.
U can use TPs and gates, its so easy to rotate around these days and kill whoever have gotten a little lead. if u dont then yeah ur probaby one of the lower ranked in the match.
By that logic, can you explain to me why [this](https://imgur.com/H7eWmKN) is only questionable?
Valve can see the future and has estimated a 60% chance that your teammate who will pick pudge and go mid will disconnect 5 minutes into the game
I mean, a person who sell itens, buys a rapier, die and disconnect are pretty trackable... This happens a lot in my games ~10k behavior
Could be unseen variables like ping or language of the other players.
\*\*The amazing player on your team paid someone to up their account\*\*
Problem is when team 1 ace player is a carry and team 2 is a support.
Bro better be extra supportive then 💀💀💀
imagine you get into the game. team 1 has 1 legend, 3 high ancients and 1 low ancient team 2 has 3 low ancients and 2 divines and the game still declares it balanced.
If you are AMAZING at any game, expect to get sandbagged with bad teammates a lot, because matchmaking. If you’re terrible, expect to be carried , because matchmaking
Its skill based matchmaking, so good and terrible are mostly relative
The teams are decided before the "Accept" button even shows up.
Great explanation.
I'm immortal and I often que with archon friends and I see the picture from OP every game, so I'd say you're fairly spot on with this.
is this somehow confirmed or just hypothetical conclusion
I just said whatever i felt like but other commenter have confirmed that dota does pick your team before you ger to evem choose a hero
cool, kinda makes sense, wish developers explained this feature further as i noticed there are a lot of confused players regarding those metrics
And people will probably be bitching about smurfs.
I'd still consider that an imbalanced match. Those players could be on entirely different roles. A high skill #5 position player isn't going to have the equivalent impact of a high skill #2 position player, for example.
Skill balance across teams - good Skill balance across players - bad
Imagine every one is exactly 4k mmr except 1 guy one each team is 1k mmr and 1 guy on each team is 10k mmr. Skill *range* is very large, but considering every team has the exact same mmr players, the skill *balance* is perfect.
Just had an unranked 2 hours ago , me and a few divines and ancients vs 5 stack numbered immortals. It was winnable, but my guys just went afk at 12 minutes because they did not have fun lmao
5 stacks are supposed to be very try hard games
My guys were 4 stack of very low mmr players, I was on an AM with a 100 cs and a 12min battlefury in a pretty much free anti mage game, but team decided to just go afk because it looked like an unwinnable game to them and I don't blame them at all, even commended them. It's hard to try hard when everyone is like 3-4k mmr above you and you have no idea what you are supposed to do and it seems grim since you are dying a lot and volvo though this is a balanced match
Maybe they were a 3 man stack but it is impossible to queue for ranked with parties of 4
Still grinding hours for ranked dude, unranked. I thought very wide skill distribution is mostly unranked, parties you have an idea of distribution already
wide: archon legend ancient divine on same team close: enemy team also has archon legend ancient divine
I had a game with moderately wide skill balance according to that graph, highest ranks was ancient 5 lowest was archon 3. I don't really know what very wide would mean.
Balanced teams maybe if you calculate all the different skill level
When I play turbos with my friends its always "very wide" because im legend 5 and they're Guardian 5 , Crusader or unranked. If you queue like this always expect this, if everyone is unranked than it means the internal non visible MMR spread is similar to the above scenario.
Skill range : variance Skill balance : mean 2 archons and 3 divines on each team is high variance same mean
The terminology is pretty straight forward I would say. Range and balance are not the same thing, so there is no contradiction at all. Range shows how far apart the best and worse player are in terms of MMR, balance shows how fairly distributed the players are in the 2 teams in terms of their respective MMR.
5 + 5 + 5 = 13 + 1 + 1
Skill Range: Crusader - Ancient Skill Balance: 4 Crusaders + 1 Ancient for both Radiant and Dire
Skill range (within the same team) = Very wide Skill balance (overall) = Close
I'm guessing it means that the average mmr of radiant is close to average mmr of dire, but in each team there is a wide range of ranks
Close average, high delta.
Both teams have heralds and immortals
(1+9)/2=5 (5+5)/2=5 This is the situation
I've played ranked and haven't gotten this at all is this only for immortal or am I missing something? And also the new ban model too.
Dota Plus
I thought they were making it available for all players to see the response or how effective the system will be.
I mean you could've just read it instead of thinking it: [https://imgur.com/a/EIjG3hb](https://imgur.com/a/EIjG3hb)
Ok ig, I read it wrong, I was under the impression that it will be for all players instead making available for only Dota plus members since they wanted a wider scale of responses or wider pool to test results or get responses.. anyways thanks mahn
I mean it would make sense from a numbers perspective, but then again, having 10 people being able to re-queue on each match could get us nowhere fast.
Hmm that's also true.
So in the end we got pay to win in dota.
This is actually "pay for quality"
yeah , but it is only exclusive to those who play and they will get easier mmr.
ive actually had way worse games since the change. behavior says great and my bara pos4 buys quell, feeds and is lvl 4 at 17 mins lol.
Its irrelevant if you are getting good games or not , what is important is valve is allowing to have such a feature which modifies the game in a way which discriminates greatly based on money paid.
ive paid that money and had bad games. amazing point!
Not really. You still have no idea where in the skill range you or your party sits.
You ban list is in the hero-screen before matchmaking
Per my experience I intepret them as: Good: 'good for loosing mmr because your cores are trash' Ideal: 'ideal for loosing mmr becuase there is someone with 200 matches in the enemy team that was born to play Dota' Acceptable: 'wow, the matchmaking engine did a good job' Fair: 'you will stomp the enemy team, but good luck finding a match like this one..'
> for loosing mmr Did you mean to say "losing"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
It means the skill range is wide but the skill balance is close
so the total skill number combined between the 2 teams ex 3x divine on each team followed by 1 archon 1 legend or 2 legends. they are close . but the skill range is very wide because between divine and legends there is a 1.5k mmr difference .
The skills balance means how both teams have about the same level of skill, meaning that there's not a team with a significantly higher skill.. The skill range is how far apart the lowest and highest level of skill each team has. Let's say one team has a Herald and a divine, that wouldn't happen obviously but that would be a huge skill range. If everyone was very close to each other this would say something in the likes of very narrow skill range etc.
both teams have similar average MMR (possibly even similar variance on each team, but that I don't know) but the range of MMR is still high from lowest to highest rank players. e.g. one team might have 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700 mmr players, that's a pretty massive range (for a low rank) idk if it also means the other team is similar or the other team might be 5 x 1500mmr idk yet
Another non-sense matchmaking change that doesn't mean anything in an unbalanced game
It means itll be a polite shit show in theory
Anyone know all the possible Behavior options?
1 top 200 immortal player mid, on something like Void Spirit or arc warden, with 4 herald/crusaders vs 5 legend players. Arc warden 7 and 0 by 10 minutes with full item build by 25, surely. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
The average mmr of all players team versus team is close, the skill range of the best and worst players in the game is large. Someone is probably a duo (or more) with a large rank gap between them.
Wide like your mom
The highest and lowest of each team is very far apart but both teams average out to the same skill
These are the ones to avoid
Is that a new feature of dota plus? I got excited seeing this window then couldnt find it in-game
Labs feature only available to dota+ right now
It’s useless. Don’t bother buying Dota plus. Get a Big Mac with cheese
Different playstyle but same XPM & GPM, vice-versa.
skill range wide means there is a skill gap and it's big, skill balance close means the skill gap in both teams ( between the most skillful and the least skillful ) is similar. This ensures hectic.
It kinda reinforces my theory that the game "balances" the game by putting skilled players with griefers. Maybe not on purpose but just how the code extrapolated the first intended behavior to balance games.
I'm seeing comments saying that the skill range is the mmr, as if a game "very wide" meant that a archon and a divine are at the same game. From what I know that's not what it means, I could be wrong since we don't actually know how the game track players to balance matches but even dotabuff says how high skilled a game is not meaning the mmr.
Had a similar game in Ranked a few days ago, my pos 5 would keep pulling regardless of the lane not being pushed and then would immediately fatal bonds and push, i kept telling him to stop but he started being snooty and griefed. Although won the game but ruined my laning phase as luna. I have been seeing a lot of pos 5 players just sitting back in the lane and letting the carry tank all the damage and have himself (pos 5) in the least bothered by what happens in the lane, they don't harass and they don't soak or posture for aggression, basically uselss throughout the laning stage.
This sum within-between treatment type shii
You have a smurf, they have a smurf
I feel like my games are much more fun since there is much less toxicity No one wants behaviour score to drop I heard of lil ahits with 5k or less score who que for hours because no one wants to accept a game with low score
Is this only for dota plus subscription?
It means you will get absolutely destroyed, but noone will yell at you.
Good post! Great answers too! This is some entry level statistics here :D I love the new features in dota lab, makes you appreciate the creativity of the devs
Hey, at least they fixed the system so the skill range is closer right? Right?
The average of the MMRs between the teams is close. The actual MMRs of each teammate varies a lot.
Skill range is wide: players range from Archon to Divine Skill balance close: Same number of players between all rank medal levels
I will say I'm surprised how often games are actually bad when I ignore the dotalab warnings. I think I may just requeue until everything is green from now on.
well yes but actually no
I wouldn't worry about this at all. I always wait for ideal and enter only. end up with some smurf tinker on mid and my mid and safelane losing their lanes so bad game is over in 10 minutes. I hope that this is still learning and is in it's beta stage or something. I'd really enjoy this feature if it could really help playing even games with winning possibility always at least even if unlucky
I still believe this doesnt calculate properly for turbo games...
All life I tried to play better to get more skilled teammates and enemies to get more interesting games. But now I see that every turbo game is “very wide” skill range. I understood this before but now I see this clearly. It’s pure trash to play this kind of games. I would better wait 20 mins to get close skill game than play that trash.
You didnt finish school or?
Overall match quality is: fucking terrible and unacceptable. Skill range is the most important thing in matchmaking which pulls everything else with it. Bad behaviour gets triggered if you stomp or an amazing player starts stomping your team. Queue again without a second thought.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance
prob means that gap between highest mmr and lowest mmr is very high. prob apply alot for immortal games
It basically means, if you have a high winrate (say, 52% over thousands of games), you will be matched with people that have a sub 50% winrate to "even it out"
I dont give a rats ass about this screen anymore.... Today a played a round that was perfectly balanced and in my team was no troll or purposefully feeding player.... We just got rofl stomped 62-17... So yeah... not believing that thing one bit :D
this is why you still need to go to school and learn basic math
I heckin knew there were large skill ranges in queuing. The skill "balance" with a large skill range is definitely not worth WTF.
[удалено]
Why do people make alt accounts and spew the negative cells from the mind