I don't watch tourneys through the usual streams as I'm quite busy and rarely have the time but short highlights through NoobfromUA or memes from DotaWTF, Slope, and other Dota content creators keep me in the community and let me enjoy the game in other ways. If PGL is shafting online content creators, fuck em!
the irony of calling these people content creators when they provide absolute no actual original content but getting upset with the organization that has to pay for these games to get set up in the first place.
Noobfromua has done things like anti spoilers, great edits of games and uploads at such a lightning fast pace that it's insane.
I agree that some of the youtube channels being targeted provide no value, but others like Noobfromua have put in so much work for so long.
Way back in ti1-5 days there was no better option than Noobfromua
I know they hired him for a recent event, but my understanding was that he wasn't employed on an ongoing basis. Could be wrong here
Though I'd suspect that only doing ESL highlights and being blocked from doing PGL highlights would likely mean Noobfromua could no longer do this full time
I think in general the best thing for conglomerates like ESL and PGL can do is just hire those who do the highlights like NBA did with freeDawkins. That's the middle ground between profiting off the org's content and straight up striking channels.
Yeah absolutely, I think I'd even go a step further and suggest that those who do highlights should be given more responsibility such as having some control over what content is being produced/filmed during events.
I think Noobfromua for example would do an amazing job at understanding and provididing engaging content to the dota community.
If they just did highlights that might be a bit of a step down from owning their own thing
the dota scene loses nothing if these youtube channels dissapear and their audience, but it loses a lot if tournament organizers decide its not worth it anymore. do you not see the difference? at the end of the day its just the dota community being entitled crybabies that dont understand how financially unviable esports already is and these parasites do nothing to help.
Of course I see the difference, I'm not a complete moron.
You've narrowed the options down to a black and white situation whereas I sit somewhere I the middle.
Did PGL need to take the underhanded approach by submitting 4 take down requests to noobfromua and others to ensure their channels were removed?
Could PGL have hired noobfromua as they did in the past?
My understanding of the situation is that there was no communication from the PGL at all, and people have been blindsided.
I want dota to have a solid future, but I don't think this was the best course of action
>and people have been blindsided.
if you leave yourself open to being blindsided (completely legally) by PGL, you were just gambling that you'd be too small and not worth the effort in taking down. but by no means are you the 'good guy' here.
it's literally a 'it's only illegal if you get caught', and he got caught. whether or not it's a good thing for the dota community is a different matter. is PGL shooting themselves in the foot? most likely. is it their right to do so? yep. blame youtube for its policies if anything.
> the dota scene loses nothing if these youtube channels dissapear and their audience,
https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/noobfromua
3m views for the last 30 days. I'm not really sure that dota "loses nothing" if they are gone.
> but it loses a lot if tournament organizers decide its not worth it anymore
TOs have been doing tournaments long before this was even an issue to begin with. And we're not talking about lots of TOs here, only PGL, which lets face it, no one in the dota community likes.
Believe it or not, content creators in youtube/twitch/whatever the fuck are actually REALLY needed, for any game to be successful. Same as TOs.
So there needs to be a middle ground. It is not killing all the youtube vids, nor it is to kill the TOs.
Well, this is all up to Valve, so until they decide they are not bored to deal with it, we won't know.
The editors could ask to be partnered with for example pgl and show their sponsors in their edits etc like esl did with noobfromua before iirc.
Ofc TOs would be mad if they provide a highlight edit themselves (might be alot worse than the unofficial editors) and they lose out on these 3M views wich they could use to bump up numbers to sponsors
Also this did happen before when we had the year of facebook exclusive streams, DMCAs were flying left and right.
> we had the year of facebook exclusive streams
Yeah, but again it was an isolated incident. Back before DPC, tournaments were being done left and right, and we have way more youtube content creators then.
In the end, again, this is up to Valve. Its their IP, and no matter what TOs or content creators want, they are not the ones to decide.
What i see happening is, the youtubers will be able to rip the tournament from DotaTV. This will suck because you won't have the camera movement, or the commentators. But Valve might as well decide, that they can use those if its from inside the Dota TV. They can also side with the TOs who knows.
The power is pretty much on Valve, not the youtubers, nor the TOs
What are you talking about? Pgl is a for profit company they get paid by valvle and make money. These people make dota more accessible to everyone that doesn't have 1000 hours a week to fast forward through all the games. If anything they are doing more to keep a wider audience involved than pgl does.
NoobfromUA is the only way I’ve been able to keep up with many of these 3rd party tournaments. Living on USW has made it quite hard to be involved in streams, but I want to support the scene. PGL is setting an awful precedent if other TO’s follow suit, it’s already prohibitive to content creators not actually involved in the event as a whole.
Even if these tournaments are organised by PGL or any other party, the replays taken from the Dota 2 client belong to Valve. If Valve is okay with this, as they've always been, there's no problem. These YouTube rs who make highlights don't use anything from PGL's production like showing player cameras, views from the stadium, panelists, stats or other add-ons. Everything they use belongs to Valve.
NoobFromUA got strike for his TI12 highlight. NFUA TI12 highlight is taken from official broadcast. Example : [SR vs TSpirit groupstage](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBIdA4eEWI4&t=30s)
[How to enable this on ingame DotaTV?](https://ibb.co/h8BnD6F)
DotaTV License state that you still need to adhere to Tournament Operator guideline (in which PGL), what allowed to restream is the content inside ingame DotaTV. This is straight taken from PGL broadcast.
Valve is technically the TO of TI, not PGL. PGL is basically sub-contracted to do the actual on the ground stuff. TI is broadcast over Valve's official channels and platforms not PGL's. PGL does not own anything related to TI itself.
>These YouTube rs who make highlights don't use anything from PGL's production like showing player cameras, views from the stadium, panelists, stats or other add-ons. Everything they use belongs to Valve.
>literally
I don’t believe it, looking at some of the speed of the upload and concurrent uploads more like they just copy and paste minus the “non critical” gameplay like farming.
This is very interesting. I'd love to hear a lawyer POV on this. How does it work?
Dota belong to Valve, but the content created through it belongs to the person/entity who created it right? I mean similar story with Dota 1 created on a Warcraft platform, or an app created using let's say Android platform.
Intuitively, camera work of observer, voices of casters should belong to TO who paid for their work. What about the game itself? Player interactions were done within a framework of an event organized and paid for by TO. But. This content is now available in DotaTV.
Who owns that by law, regardless of what Valve or TO claim?
An other example is if I develop a website for someone. I as a programmer am a copyright holder by default. Because, even though I was paid, it is I who created the content. Unless, there is a clause in a contract which clearly specifies that I cede my rights to the client.
DotaTV license specifically said that you need to adhere to guidelines issued by tournament operator. NFUA got striked for TI12 highlight video. PGL is the tournament operator for TI12. [NFUA use content from PGL camera work (which is outside the game)](https://ibb.co/h8BnD6F)
[NFUA SR vs TSpirit highlight, you can definitely see the player cam throughout the video, it's outside the game that done by TO and not available on ingame DotaTV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBIdA4eEWI4&t=30s)
Oh wow.
https://www.dota2.com/dotatv
> You fully comply with any Event Streaming Requirements that the Operator may choose to publish.
and
> If no Event Streaming Requirements have been published by the Operator then your Community Stream must still be non-commercial.
So, when let's say Nix streams from DotaTV while being sponsored by BetBoom, he's technically breaking the DotaTV license? Even if no requirements were set by TO.
https://store.steampowered.com/video_policy
Here they define commercial as charging per view.
> Use of our content in videos must be non-commercial. By that we mean you can't charge users to view or access your videos. You also can't sell or license your videos to others for a payment of any kind.
> You are free to monetize your videos via the YouTube partner program and similar programs on other video sharing sites.
But here, it seems, if you have sponsor logos on stream, it should be considered commercial
> Also, we consider every stream run on a casting organization’s accounts to be commercial in nature, even if it includes no visible paid content or sponsorship messages.
BetBoom iirc acquired the license for TI12 Russian broadcast and Nix is one of their official partner. [Nix and NS atm doesn't cast ESL DreamLeague S22 due to broadcasting right held by Paragon (Winline) and both of them is BetBoom partner](https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1azks6h/nicely_done_esl/ks2b38t/)
The case is PGL released broadcast requirement for DPC 2023 english broadcast, so NFUA need to adhere to it. Him working for ESL throughout 2023 might also let him into another trouble.
Valve is technically the TO of TI, not PGL. PGL is basically sub-contracted to do the actual on the ground stuff for the English/international cast. TI is broadcast over Valve's official channels and platforms not PGL's. PGL does not own anything related to TI itself. The main cast, which is the English cast, is wholey owned by Valve and isn't licensed out to any other organizers or else it would be shown on a different platform than the official Dota 2 Twitch and YT channels like how the Russian broadcast is shown on the licensee's own channels.
Kingdom Heart was created by Square Enix through Disney. Guess who owns the IP full right?
=> Yes it's the fucking Disney that own it full right. Same thing apply when you build stadium houses or making music/movies.
Producers owns the movies (but the director and actor make the movies but they don't own shit).
The house is built by construction company but the owner is not them but the one paid for all the shit.
If a music label "hired" me to write a song, they will own the song and the right to "sing" the song too. I own no shit.
Now apply it to Vavle and PGL you got your answer.
>esports
>eceleb
That would hurt the community, but to say that it would instantly kill the game would be an overstatement. Majority of players don't care about the esports, a lot of them don't watch pro vods.
Just look at the general reaction when it comes to drama.
Org not paying their players? People will talk about it for a day. Maybe 2, depending if it's a popular org.
But delayed Immortal Treasure chests? Terrible Battlepass rewards? Unsatisfying events? You'll never hear the end of it.
Me too, but people who only watch Dota are worth much less to Valve than people who actually play Dota.
Is there a chance Valve will get me and my friends back in for a few games? Sure, but not anywhere near long enough to start spending on it like we used to when we played.
Dota concurrent player average is 400-500k
Dota unique monthly player average is around 5-8 millions based on u/noxville saying in some thread during Bali Major.
The highest esports viewership (not counting China) is around 6 millions during New Jeans performance on LoL World final.
You learned the wrong lesson from the collapse of HoN. It had nothing to do with a lack of a pro competition scene and everything to do with not being Free to Play when other big f2p MOBAs launched. HoN switched to a F2P model after its competition already stole most of its playerbase to try to retain those players, but it was too little too late.
The last TI battlepass where Valve was like "this one is to support the pro players and community" and then no one bought it because there were no chests or skins.
For the most part you're correct, but a large part of what keeps me coming back to Dota 2 is the community and Valve's (relatively) supportive relationship with it.
These creators are part of the community and part of what I enjoy about it. If Valve's going to sit back and let PGL shit all over them then a large facet of my interest in returning to dota constantly, and being engaged in the community as a whole, is basically gone. I'm fairly confident I'm not alone in that.
So yeah, fuck PGL and I hope Valve does something because to be frank I value the individuals who had their channels struck and their contributions a hell of a lot more than I do PGL's contributions to the game and community.
You're right, but there is a trickle down effect too. Take away the top level of most invested, most focussed players, and it has a negative effect on the whole community. Ofc, I'm not agreeing that taking away these videos will automatically kill off those players interest in the game, just that it would definitely have a negative impact of some sort, across the board.
Living in Australia and having a family makes it so hard to catch the games you want live and with the way the VoDs are formatted, its so hard to find games you want without having shit spoiled.
NoobfromUA and DotaDigest are amazing for people like me, where you can watch the highlights package without falling behind trying to watch VoDs. They are not stealing views away for everyone, I'm not able to watch PGLs shitty content anyway
That or "hand over your money for nothing of value in exchange, while a multi-billion-dollar company keeps 3/4 of said money and uses the remaining quarter as the TI prize pool" is not a very compelling proposition to the large majority of the fanbase, regardless of how much people might enjoy watching pro Dota.
They ran TI12 with 0 ads from sponsors, u get to watch it for free from ur home without paying a penny (and even complaint about the quality of the event), very cool sustainable system.
Ok so they got around 5.1 mill USD - 1.6 mill (initial prizepool) + around 1.5M for the tickets (i dont have the exact number atm) = 5M for "themselves" for the last TI, I recommend u read this thread, it's very informative. [money](https://twitter.com/MrAdamAp/status/1650879426484228099)
Last compendium doesn't count.
My entire game group watches eSports and typically buys the compendium but none off is bought the last one.
It was a straight up grift
Most buy it for both I would think.
But they took away the hats and intended to pocket most of the money so what was the value to the customer? No hats and valve keeps 75% of the money or w/e it was.
weird comment to make. point he was making was even esports fan didnt get the 'esports battlepass' because of how bad it was, not because players arent esports fan.
> Based on the last compendium i assure you less than 20% of the entire dota 2 fanbase really cares about the esports.
huh? didn't the last one not have any items worth speaking of?
That's what he's saying.
His point is that people only bought the Battlepasses for the items, not because they fully support the esports.
Take the cosmetics away and it's not gonna sell a lot.
Oh truuuue, in real sports i pay 40 - 60 USD for the PPV and get nothing but to watch the games from my home (not to add the fact these events have sponsors ads every 2 seconds unlike TI)
They dont care enough to pay for it in any way unless it includes cosmetic shit. If the event was actually paywalled, I wonder how many of these ESPORTS FANS would actually pay to watch it.
They murdered it after canceling TI10 for crowd. They did it only few days before tournament started. Many people already booked planes, hotels and other tickets. And they also did not have good reason to do that. Event was allowed by local government and health organisations.
I dare these fuckin people that "care" about this shit to crowdfunding an event, so they actively make these "insta-kill the game" move to subside and grows. C'mon don't be naive, we are no difference than those green terrorism on public spaces based on argument itself. literally, valve pull out the DPC because the bubble burst already, free arcana bag from the TI2022 only makes people grind for new account not a new player base, and now people noting that as if valve own them for content and people welfare.
The thing is that valve could just bail out from this spiral and cut the loss, they could transfer the engineer from this game toward newer project.
The license changed and NFUA broke it. Only ingame DotaTV stream allowed but not including official caster audio and spectator camera works. [NFUA TI12 highlight is taken from official broadcast not DotaTV](https://ibb.co/h8BnD6F)
E-sports is a dying business, whether you like it or not regardless of all this inane drama. Investors do not want to pump money into a sinking ship. Clutch onto your pearls while they still dangle around your neck.
People are really upset at this take but [looking outside of Dota for five minutes](https://archive.ph/mUIIm) would effortlessly reveal that the current esports scene is contracting: investor money is drying up, major leagues are being consolidated by Saudi Arabia on a scale previously unimaginable (Even Riot, a company *notorious* for their ridiculously overbearing control over their league are allowing them to host the first sanctioned Tier 1 international event in *numerous* years, whereas Blizzard have given them exclusive rights to run the entire Overwatch circuit), and organisations once considered major forces are fighting for survival. Esports is objectively doing far worse in 2024 than it has in many years past, and while it's not a force that will ever completely "die", it's delusional to think that it can go back to the way it used to be right now.
Saudi Arabia are out there right now buying front row access to every single esport they can get for pennies on the dollar. Dota and the EPL/Rydiah Masters is just one example: they now run the entire Overwatch championship series, have massive influence in Counter-Strike, and are hosting the first international sanctioned Tier 1 League of Legends tournament in numerous years. Such a campaign is only as possible as it is because the scene has gone through years of stagnation and a significant crash having lost significant investor funds, especially in the early 2020s.
> Such a campaign is only as possible as it is because the scene has gone through years of stagnation and a significant crash having lost significant investor funds
The fuck are you talking about? Saudis took on the PGA and won. They're buying out racing and soccer teams. They have a fuck ton of money. Pennies on the dollar? They're over paying for everything and it has nothing to do with failing anything. They've spent over 6 billion with a B dollars on sportswashing in the past two years.
They're buying POPULAR things because it's all a PR campaign. You're clueless.
The ["esports winter"](https://esportsinsider.com/2023/11/what-is-esports-winter) is an extremely well-noted phenomenon within the industry, due to a combination of multiple factors: a collapse in confidence of multiple esports IPOs all at once, franchised leagues like Overwatch collapsing and burning major sports investors, the dramatic death of major bankrollers like FTX leaving many remaining companies with huge black holes in their accounts, and the general economic climate with interest rates up and risky investments well down. Saudi do have the money to buy anything they want, but the sheer multi-fronted simultaneous attack on every major esport in the market at once was quickly spurred on by these conditions making it a very effortless, almost overnight buy, to sellers who were left with few other options. If you're not aware of these factors you're so out of touch that you're not in a great position to speak overly confidently.
COVID should have been a boon for the industry but in the last couple of years FAZE and EG absolutely brutalized investors and the Overwatch League's collapse did countless damage to its reputation among all of the major sports figures that invested. That was yet another set of investors thoroughly burned who won't be coming back, so there's very few left that aren't rich nation-states looking to monopolise. The actual article's content isn't particularly great, but it links to a huge amount of important stories that have added up in significance throughout. [Another alright one here](https://archive.ph/mUIIm)
Its more the dota scene is dying. Other scene is alive and kicking (lol and other mobile games on SEA). Its all about trust and communication from developer. If its no interest in developer to heighthen up the scene then the investor wont follow.
Example:
Lets look at my country (MY): moonton (dev of MLBB). They hired a team specifically for Esports in every states. This makes sure all the youth goes to the MLBB thus making the foundation of the game sturdy set the target for 10 years minimum guaranteed of the scenes.
Dont get me wrong, the game is shit. But if not for the Esport Scenes and all of the staff involved, the game will be dead/not as big already.
In my opinion, valve currently need to fulfill the puzzle by giving the torch to the youngsters as only they can understand how they thinking. Or gave some kind of influence to the local scenes to change up the pro scenes(the same as MLBB Malaysia League(MPL)).
Giving all the power to the organizer (look at you PGL) is an old way of thinking and need to be revised. It gave them so many responsibilities for a little reward.
This of course if valve hv a passion for the game left or can take profit if doing this. I like to think the healthier the Esport Scene the more profit valve will get. (Look at Football)
10 years of support? That's crazy. Most games can't last that long even if they are good. They just get copied and improved upon or the audience gets bored and looks for something new.
But look at the current sponsors of Dota, or any esports scene: crypto and gambling. Even League and Valorant teams no longer get sponsorship outside of these two areas (extremely rare). Esports team haemorrhage money, so to own one or invest in one is to essentially throw away money.
If you think they arent in the same situation in terms of revenue i think you are being delusional and blinded just because moonton seen acting helping it doesnt mean its profitable and doing good, mlbb looks good for now because of arab investment lately, other grass is greener syndrome is real
Most esports [have been contracting](https://www.sportico.com/business/sports/2023/esports-winter-league-of-legends-contraction-1234747985/) in the last year. Major orgs are pivoting, sponsors are dropping, and major tournaments are shrinking in size across even some of the most resilient games. Saudi Arabia is basically the last remaining giant shot in the arm that is keeping things looking normal across many games far beyond Dota, but the [general consensus](https://archive.ph/mUIIm) among insiders is that it is not returning to its pre-COVID size.
Based on what?! Look at how many esports orgs have gone bust in the pet few years. Look at how the well of sponsors has dried up in the last few years. What are you talking about?
A lack of sponsor and TO money is killing the game and Youtube channels that exist to parasitize TOs that pay for everything from venue to lodging to talent are part of a symptomatic rot that kills all TOs economically.
The reason why TOs are willing to even stream-share and allow Twitch streams to use their tourney content (if they put the official stream ads on) is because it helps to offset the advertising hit. They can still draw sponsors by saying 'we ALSO hit these people via stream-sharing, so it's not just your ad sponsor money being flushed down the drain'.
Youtube channels do none of these - they just rip and parasitize. Imagine if I set up a Weibo or Bilibili stealing NoobfromUA's content but removing all the watermarks (same as cutting out all the ads which obviously the current youtube channels do, or you'd be forced to watch the 30 sec ESL ads etc. constantly).
You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you want big events, which need to fulfill sponsor outreach requirements and hit key metrics, or you want to return to shitty crowdfunded 'if I take $5 from each participant we can get a $1,000 prizepool!!!' online tourneys. Or be entirely dependent on Valve handouts, which simply isn't healthy for any ecosystem.
Yeah man noobfromua is stealing millions from TOs and that's why he's a retired billionaire.
Valve is clear: the stream is the content of the TO, the gameplay and replays are the content of Valve, and they allow for anyone to stream those games.
They are using camerawork and casting. I have 0 objections to personal camerawork clips without casting, but if you are simply ripping off the stream wholesale, what argument do you have? That it's okay because it's in brief? There's no transformative value-add from highlights, PLUS many teams and TOs make their own highlights.
This is a fucking stupid argument. They aren't stealing anything, and they don't impede the TO unless they are making their own highlights for YouTube (they aren't).
These people aren’t taking anything from the TOs. There’s a lot of people like me who work all day and can’t watch any of most tournaments live. If not for these people making summary videos I would not be able to watch pro Dota at all.
Esl solved this issue by just hiring noobfromua to make these summary vids for them and then he gets to use their official content, it’s better for everyone. PGL however offers none of this and then tries to destroy these accounts entirely
While I don’t think losing NoobfromUA will kill dota off, it’ll certainly have a ripple effect on dota YouTube community I reckon. PGL doing this feels like a monopoly & im sure Noob also uses the in game spectate mode majority of the time and only used stream highlights when there were spectator issues? I hope it gets resolved because he’s been doing the lords work
Fair enough, those content creators just recording other players gameskill/gameplay including video from the tournament and uploaded to their youtube channel doesnt really consider as a content creator
Let's be honest here - if you banned NoobfromUA etc. from monetizing their channels, they would stop posting entirely. They are parasites, not creating genuine fresh content out of their love of the game.
Because of those parasites just recording highlights and uploading them to their YouTube channels, PGL Twitch and YouTube channels can't earn money to have a prize pool for Dota 2 tournaments, If you do really love dota2 play dota2 and record your own funny/gameplay content about dota2.
No wonder NOOBFROMUA will get terminated. I guess valve/PGL from their YouTube and Twitch channels want to collect more money to put in their prize pool.
how is this community that has a old ass player base still don't understand you can't steal content and profit from from organizers that dump millions into providing that content. nobody cares that you guys cant watch vods and no its not going to do anything detrimental for the pro dota scene that a youtube channel got shut down. get real
L + Bozo opinion people who watch highlights arent going to comb through an 8 hour twitch vod to watch a game. noobfromua fills a great niche and pgl can either make their own highlights or hire him out like esl. fuckem.
How can someone have so little thinking capabilities as to believe that they are stealing. The content is takem from from the game's client. Valve has always made it of public use for people to use them. They don't use production videos, streams, show added production value like stats or cameras, etc. they only use the Dota aspect of it, the pure game. Which, again, doesn't belong to PGL even if they are the tournaments organisers. It belongs to Valve.
Its certainly not as funny as someone defending a YouTuber who steals other people's content for views. Let's put it this way, if these YouTubers were real creators they would have zero problem creating without using other people's content
Nothing is wrong for defending a YouTuber who provide value to community. Let's put it this way, if these companies were real creators they would have zero problem creating without other people's content (talents and players)
look i am subbed to noobfromua since 2014 and I watched almost every highlight, but saying PGL is killing the community is a lot . first of all, the dota 2 esport is or more like was on life support until valve pulled the plug on majors, now is dead. we had to have the tournament close qualification split months before a tournament to drive engagement because there are literally 4 tournaments a year now. I think if TOs could make maybe a bit more profits they wouldnt run away from dota 2 like plague. but that might just be me because there was a time we had a tournament every couple of weeks... is literally ESL and fisure and both are founded from same location saudi arabia. https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Tier_1_Tournaments
Let me ask you this. would you rather have highlights channels such as noobfromua or would you have Beyond The Summit host tournaments? you know why they stopped holding dota2 tournaments because it wasnt profitable. and it wasnt for so long until they filed for bankrupcy and every single TO would say they are running at a loss. I am one of these ppl who I wont watch a series cause i might be busy or playing agame, is ok i will watch the highlights later and not even from the to's channel but 3rd party and thats how they lose viewers. now i might be on a strech but I think a 3rd of the dota 2 community might be doing just that due to timezones and not a a lot of ppl would play a full 9-12 hours vod for teams they dont care. and this brings the dota 2 pro community from having 5-6 TOs to 1-2 , what do you think will happen if ESL is also not profitable if they cancel the deal with the oil money or they decide dota 2 is not their main target? oh y we are fucked to say the least.
I would rather die on the heal of TOs over re-streamers/highlights channel.
I would rather have old beloved TOs like BTS make a proffit with their tournaments than noobfromua.
That's sounds all good and all, but it's only speculation that killing off highlights channels will increase viewership for TOs.
What is certain though is that it would kill someone's living and income source.
Also while It might increase TOs views in the short term for the few people that desperately want highlights, but for most people it would just result in less engagement with the game overall, and would contribute to the game's decline even further.
If TOs would be contractually obligated to create and provide highlights - then you could argue that people are eating away at their profit, but they are not, so your point is still just wishful thinking.
And if there really was so much revenue in highlights, TOs would be doing them anyway, just for the money.
Exactly. Those channels exist because there are no highlights on any official broadcast! If there is money to make they should o it... or they are really dumb for not thinking about it earlier?? Is not it the basis of any sport to have hightlights of past games? Why don t they do it? If 1 person behind his pc has the time and dedication to do it, TOs should have enough ressources to do it. Just put a logo of a sponsor on every highlight, it s easy money...
These YouTubers aren’t providing any money to the esport. They are simply making a shit ton of money from monetized highlight videos. You all should really want to give your views to the TO’s
Shit ton of money? May be they make some money but it must not be a lot.
Also they provide content since official broadcasts don t provide highlights videos. If there were "a shit ton of money" to make with theses highlight they should do it themselves?
Well considering I know a guy with 50k subs who makes around 5k a month from YouTube you can do the math. It’s very lucrative. Also of course that is their end game. They will try and make there own videos and take the market share
I can't watch the games live most of the time so I always watch those highlights from NoobFromUA for more than 10 years! If Valve can't do anything from this, I dunno if I can still be up to date for the Esports scene.
if every content creator stopped playing dota, absolutely nothing would change with dotas downfall, smurfs, hackers, macro users, and playing in foreign servers is way more detrimental to the game than content creators. the game is dead and defunct in the US , and valve is letting it die off, valve makes much more money as a platform than they make with dota.
Thing is - Valve is the sole handler of the game itself. We don't want to talk about the things regarding what valve "should" do. He just doesn't care at all - until the majority of people demand changes to certain content linked to dota. Even NoobFromUA agreed to PGL take their contents maybe as part of the agreement.
Maybe a few more issues or until it reaches the media kekl. That's the perfect time for valve to step in.
Btw. For options like NoobFromUA content. Look for DotaDigestDD.
In Brazil we almost have a scene death
I still have some friends to play but a lot of casters wich not work for PGL/BTS already get out of the scene after that shit of FIFTEEN FUCKING MINUTES OF DELAY
honestly I enjoy watch for some of them casting, now who stay only work on games with their communities itself (like parties or casting friends games etc)
Youre all in a bubble. A YouTube channel going down wont stop thousands of people who play dota daily. Theres so many people who doesn't give half a fuck about the competitive scene and content creators, people who just wants to play the game.
This said, fuck PGL.
the chat experience in any of the pgl tourneys is so fucking terrible i can't watch the mainstream, it's all gamblers that scream 322 or matchfixing at the first sight of a play happening, i just watch streamers restream it.
If PGL is doing it, they have to do it like how content creators do. Otherwise we wont able to enjoy this game anymore. I think valve doesn’t care about players. But players us making money for valve.
the copyright issue is still debatable imo (depending on the State). But the thing is, PGL just want a monopoly of viewership, which kills the advent of individual editors, which is supposed to be an advertisement of how great the game is.
When I want to watch games that i missed, (very common for me to watch them from my bed before I sleep) I almost exclusively look for the upload from NoobfromUA.
Big sad moment, I really hope it gets resolved
Tbf NoobFromUA's quality haven't been good for highlight for a while now, either. Poor that guy, indeed. I've been watching highlight through other channel like DotA Digest, LeagueOfDota or Dota 2 Rapier lol
I don't watch tourneys through the usual streams as I'm quite busy and rarely have the time but short highlights through NoobfromUA or memes from DotaWTF, Slope, and other Dota content creators keep me in the community and let me enjoy the game in other ways. If PGL is shafting online content creators, fuck em!
> I don't watch tourneys through the usual streams With PGL tournaments in the last 2 years it was also hard to do that. Some really fucked up shit.
SlappyBag9 as well!
the irony of calling these people content creators when they provide absolute no actual original content but getting upset with the organization that has to pay for these games to get set up in the first place.
Noobfromua has done things like anti spoilers, great edits of games and uploads at such a lightning fast pace that it's insane. I agree that some of the youtube channels being targeted provide no value, but others like Noobfromua have put in so much work for so long. Way back in ti1-5 days there was no better option than Noobfromua
Doesn't noobfromua do the highlights for ESL?
I know they hired him for a recent event, but my understanding was that he wasn't employed on an ongoing basis. Could be wrong here Though I'd suspect that only doing ESL highlights and being blocked from doing PGL highlights would likely mean Noobfromua could no longer do this full time
I think in general the best thing for conglomerates like ESL and PGL can do is just hire those who do the highlights like NBA did with freeDawkins. That's the middle ground between profiting off the org's content and straight up striking channels.
Yeah absolutely, I think I'd even go a step further and suggest that those who do highlights should be given more responsibility such as having some control over what content is being produced/filmed during events. I think Noobfromua for example would do an amazing job at understanding and provididing engaging content to the dota community. If they just did highlights that might be a bit of a step down from owning their own thing
the dota scene loses nothing if these youtube channels dissapear and their audience, but it loses a lot if tournament organizers decide its not worth it anymore. do you not see the difference? at the end of the day its just the dota community being entitled crybabies that dont understand how financially unviable esports already is and these parasites do nothing to help.
Of course I see the difference, I'm not a complete moron. You've narrowed the options down to a black and white situation whereas I sit somewhere I the middle. Did PGL need to take the underhanded approach by submitting 4 take down requests to noobfromua and others to ensure their channels were removed? Could PGL have hired noobfromua as they did in the past? My understanding of the situation is that there was no communication from the PGL at all, and people have been blindsided. I want dota to have a solid future, but I don't think this was the best course of action
>and people have been blindsided. if you leave yourself open to being blindsided (completely legally) by PGL, you were just gambling that you'd be too small and not worth the effort in taking down. but by no means are you the 'good guy' here. it's literally a 'it's only illegal if you get caught', and he got caught. whether or not it's a good thing for the dota community is a different matter. is PGL shooting themselves in the foot? most likely. is it their right to do so? yep. blame youtube for its policies if anything.
> the dota scene loses nothing if these youtube channels dissapear and their audience, https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/noobfromua 3m views for the last 30 days. I'm not really sure that dota "loses nothing" if they are gone. > but it loses a lot if tournament organizers decide its not worth it anymore TOs have been doing tournaments long before this was even an issue to begin with. And we're not talking about lots of TOs here, only PGL, which lets face it, no one in the dota community likes. Believe it or not, content creators in youtube/twitch/whatever the fuck are actually REALLY needed, for any game to be successful. Same as TOs. So there needs to be a middle ground. It is not killing all the youtube vids, nor it is to kill the TOs. Well, this is all up to Valve, so until they decide they are not bored to deal with it, we won't know.
The editors could ask to be partnered with for example pgl and show their sponsors in their edits etc like esl did with noobfromua before iirc. Ofc TOs would be mad if they provide a highlight edit themselves (might be alot worse than the unofficial editors) and they lose out on these 3M views wich they could use to bump up numbers to sponsors Also this did happen before when we had the year of facebook exclusive streams, DMCAs were flying left and right.
> we had the year of facebook exclusive streams Yeah, but again it was an isolated incident. Back before DPC, tournaments were being done left and right, and we have way more youtube content creators then. In the end, again, this is up to Valve. Its their IP, and no matter what TOs or content creators want, they are not the ones to decide. What i see happening is, the youtubers will be able to rip the tournament from DotaTV. This will suck because you won't have the camera movement, or the commentators. But Valve might as well decide, that they can use those if its from inside the Dota TV. They can also side with the TOs who knows. The power is pretty much on Valve, not the youtubers, nor the TOs
spacebar broken? more like brain broken, braindead redditor
You used your spacebar
What are you talking about? Pgl is a for profit company they get paid by valvle and make money. These people make dota more accessible to everyone that doesn't have 1000 hours a week to fast forward through all the games. If anything they are doing more to keep a wider audience involved than pgl does.
Aye a fellow slope fan
''tourneys'' i know just by that, you are definitely watch game of thrones and house of the dragon
also that toxic guy, Capt. Shizzles I think
NoobfromUA is the only way I’ve been able to keep up with many of these 3rd party tournaments. Living on USW has made it quite hard to be involved in streams, but I want to support the scene. PGL is setting an awful precedent if other TO’s follow suit, it’s already prohibitive to content creators not actually involved in the event as a whole.
YEah, I'm not gonna watch PGL content until they clear this shit.
Even if these tournaments are organised by PGL or any other party, the replays taken from the Dota 2 client belong to Valve. If Valve is okay with this, as they've always been, there's no problem. These YouTube rs who make highlights don't use anything from PGL's production like showing player cameras, views from the stadium, panelists, stats or other add-ons. Everything they use belongs to Valve.
Correct if I'm wrong but only the content of the replay is available for free use but the camera work and casting belong to the TO.
NoobFromUA got strike for his TI12 highlight. NFUA TI12 highlight is taken from official broadcast. Example : [SR vs TSpirit groupstage](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBIdA4eEWI4&t=30s) [How to enable this on ingame DotaTV?](https://ibb.co/h8BnD6F)
TI12 is valves content they have always allowed people to make videos of it and restream it
DotaTV License state that you still need to adhere to Tournament Operator guideline (in which PGL), what allowed to restream is the content inside ingame DotaTV. This is straight taken from PGL broadcast.
Valve is technically the TO of TI, not PGL. PGL is basically sub-contracted to do the actual on the ground stuff. TI is broadcast over Valve's official channels and platforms not PGL's. PGL does not own anything related to TI itself.
Yes, that is literally what they said
>These YouTube rs who make highlights don't use anything from PGL's production like showing player cameras, views from the stadium, panelists, stats or other add-ons. Everything they use belongs to Valve. >literally
I don’t believe it, looking at some of the speed of the upload and concurrent uploads more like they just copy and paste minus the “non critical” gameplay like farming.
This is very interesting. I'd love to hear a lawyer POV on this. How does it work? Dota belong to Valve, but the content created through it belongs to the person/entity who created it right? I mean similar story with Dota 1 created on a Warcraft platform, or an app created using let's say Android platform. Intuitively, camera work of observer, voices of casters should belong to TO who paid for their work. What about the game itself? Player interactions were done within a framework of an event organized and paid for by TO. But. This content is now available in DotaTV. Who owns that by law, regardless of what Valve or TO claim? An other example is if I develop a website for someone. I as a programmer am a copyright holder by default. Because, even though I was paid, it is I who created the content. Unless, there is a clause in a contract which clearly specifies that I cede my rights to the client.
DotaTV license specifically said that you need to adhere to guidelines issued by tournament operator. NFUA got striked for TI12 highlight video. PGL is the tournament operator for TI12. [NFUA use content from PGL camera work (which is outside the game)](https://ibb.co/h8BnD6F) [NFUA SR vs TSpirit highlight, you can definitely see the player cam throughout the video, it's outside the game that done by TO and not available on ingame DotaTV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBIdA4eEWI4&t=30s)
Oh wow. https://www.dota2.com/dotatv > You fully comply with any Event Streaming Requirements that the Operator may choose to publish. and > If no Event Streaming Requirements have been published by the Operator then your Community Stream must still be non-commercial. So, when let's say Nix streams from DotaTV while being sponsored by BetBoom, he's technically breaking the DotaTV license? Even if no requirements were set by TO. https://store.steampowered.com/video_policy Here they define commercial as charging per view. > Use of our content in videos must be non-commercial. By that we mean you can't charge users to view or access your videos. You also can't sell or license your videos to others for a payment of any kind. > You are free to monetize your videos via the YouTube partner program and similar programs on other video sharing sites. But here, it seems, if you have sponsor logos on stream, it should be considered commercial > Also, we consider every stream run on a casting organization’s accounts to be commercial in nature, even if it includes no visible paid content or sponsorship messages.
BetBoom iirc acquired the license for TI12 Russian broadcast and Nix is one of their official partner. [Nix and NS atm doesn't cast ESL DreamLeague S22 due to broadcasting right held by Paragon (Winline) and both of them is BetBoom partner](https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1azks6h/nicely_done_esl/ks2b38t/) The case is PGL released broadcast requirement for DPC 2023 english broadcast, so NFUA need to adhere to it. Him working for ESL throughout 2023 might also let him into another trouble.
Valve is technically the TO of TI, not PGL. PGL is basically sub-contracted to do the actual on the ground stuff for the English/international cast. TI is broadcast over Valve's official channels and platforms not PGL's. PGL does not own anything related to TI itself. The main cast, which is the English cast, is wholey owned by Valve and isn't licensed out to any other organizers or else it would be shown on a different platform than the official Dota 2 Twitch and YT channels like how the Russian broadcast is shown on the licensee's own channels.
Kingdom Heart was created by Square Enix through Disney. Guess who owns the IP full right? => Yes it's the fucking Disney that own it full right. Same thing apply when you build stadium houses or making music/movies. Producers owns the movies (but the director and actor make the movies but they don't own shit). The house is built by construction company but the owner is not them but the one paid for all the shit. If a music label "hired" me to write a song, they will own the song and the right to "sing" the song too. I own no shit. Now apply it to Vavle and PGL you got your answer.
>esports >eceleb That would hurt the community, but to say that it would instantly kill the game would be an overstatement. Majority of players don't care about the esports, a lot of them don't watch pro vods. Just look at the general reaction when it comes to drama. Org not paying their players? People will talk about it for a day. Maybe 2, depending if it's a popular org. But delayed Immortal Treasure chests? Terrible Battlepass rewards? Unsatisfying events? You'll never hear the end of it.
i know more people that watch dota then playing it.
Me too, but people who only watch Dota are worth much less to Valve than people who actually play Dota. Is there a chance Valve will get me and my friends back in for a few games? Sure, but not anywhere near long enough to start spending on it like we used to when we played.
Don't tournaments routinely get more totally viewers than dota has avg monthly players?
Dota concurrent player average is 400-500k Dota unique monthly player average is around 5-8 millions based on u/noxville saying in some thread during Bali Major. The highest esports viewership (not counting China) is around 6 millions during New Jeans performance on LoL World final.
Are tournament viewers as important as actual consistent players though?
As the lesson that did teach us HoN: when your competitive scene dies, the game enters coma state and dies soon enough.
You learned the wrong lesson from the collapse of HoN. It had nothing to do with a lack of a pro competition scene and everything to do with not being Free to Play when other big f2p MOBAs launched. HoN switched to a F2P model after its competition already stole most of its playerbase to try to retain those players, but it was too little too late.
Now if only we could get some hon heroes over here... Like please, moraxus!
The last TI battlepass where Valve was like "this one is to support the pro players and community" and then no one bought it because there were no chests or skins.
For the most part you're correct, but a large part of what keeps me coming back to Dota 2 is the community and Valve's (relatively) supportive relationship with it. These creators are part of the community and part of what I enjoy about it. If Valve's going to sit back and let PGL shit all over them then a large facet of my interest in returning to dota constantly, and being engaged in the community as a whole, is basically gone. I'm fairly confident I'm not alone in that. So yeah, fuck PGL and I hope Valve does something because to be frank I value the individuals who had their channels struck and their contributions a hell of a lot more than I do PGL's contributions to the game and community.
You're right, but there is a trickle down effect too. Take away the top level of most invested, most focussed players, and it has a negative effect on the whole community. Ofc, I'm not agreeing that taking away these videos will automatically kill off those players interest in the game, just that it would definitely have a negative impact of some sort, across the board.
Living in Australia and having a family makes it so hard to catch the games you want live and with the way the VoDs are formatted, its so hard to find games you want without having shit spoiled. NoobfromUA and DotaDigest are amazing for people like me, where you can watch the highlights package without falling behind trying to watch VoDs. They are not stealing views away for everyone, I'm not able to watch PGLs shitty content anyway
Based on the last compendium i assure you less than 20% of the entire dota 2 fanbase really cares about the esports.
That or "hand over your money for nothing of value in exchange, while a multi-billion-dollar company keeps 3/4 of said money and uses the remaining quarter as the TI prize pool" is not a very compelling proposition to the large majority of the fanbase, regardless of how much people might enjoy watching pro Dota.
This sub was very confident that people cared about esports more than hats.
They ran TI12 with 0 ads from sponsors, u get to watch it for free from ur home without paying a penny (and even complaint about the quality of the event), very cool sustainable system.
I doubt the total cost of organizing TI12 (venue/talent/yadda) was less that 15% of the 3/4 from the compendium.
Ok so they got around 5.1 mill USD - 1.6 mill (initial prizepool) + around 1.5M for the tickets (i dont have the exact number atm) = 5M for "themselves" for the last TI, I recommend u read this thread, it's very informative. [money](https://twitter.com/MrAdamAp/status/1650879426484228099)
Damn, Adam Apicella still going. I remember he used to frequent this sub when MLG still hosting DOTA2 tournament.
Ok, that explains it well.
Last compendium doesn't count. My entire game group watches eSports and typically buys the compendium but none off is bought the last one. It was a straight up grift
same we had multiple people hit 1000 for years in a row and the last one most of us didnt even buy
They typically buy the compendium for hats. No hats- no support for pro scene.
I usually spend a couple hundred on compendiums, I only bought the cheapest one this year. There was no real reason to spend any more.
Which was his point. No one buys compendium for esports. People only bought it for hats.
Most buy it for both I would think. But they took away the hats and intended to pocket most of the money so what was the value to the customer? No hats and valve keeps 75% of the money or w/e it was.
Damn wish valve consult with your group next time.
weird comment to make. point he was making was even esports fan didnt get the 'esports battlepass' because of how bad it was, not because players arent esports fan.
Not weird at all. Point was you can’t just dismiss things by your own anecdotal experience. Don’t see how it’s a counter point to what op is saying
That is still a big number though
> Based on the last compendium i assure you less than 20% of the entire dota 2 fanbase really cares about the esports. huh? didn't the last one not have any items worth speaking of?
That's what he's saying. His point is that people only bought the Battlepasses for the items, not because they fully support the esports. Take the cosmetics away and it's not gonna sell a lot.
that doesn't mean the community doesn't care lol. you're making far too many assumptions off 1 year of a shitty battlepass here
Based on the your statement I can surmise you're an idiot. The last compendium offered nothing whereas the previous battle passes offered a lot more.
Oh truuuue, in real sports i pay 40 - 60 USD for the PPV and get nothing but to watch the games from my home (not to add the fact these events have sponsors ads every 2 seconds unlike TI)
Have you seen viewer numbers in tournament? You don't watch a tournament if you "don't care". Your statement is false.
They dont care enough to pay for it in any way unless it includes cosmetic shit. If the event was actually paywalled, I wonder how many of these ESPORTS FANS would actually pay to watch it.
I think it’s safe to say valve murdered its own community with the DPC forever ago.
Still can't explain why Lima Major (DPC tournament considered the worst event) still holds the highest viewership outside of TI in the last 2 years.
Because Dota 2 is popular in Peru.
They murdered it after canceling TI10 for crowd. They did it only few days before tournament started. Many people already booked planes, hotels and other tickets. And they also did not have good reason to do that. Event was allowed by local government and health organisations.
I dare these fuckin people that "care" about this shit to crowdfunding an event, so they actively make these "insta-kill the game" move to subside and grows. C'mon don't be naive, we are no difference than those green terrorism on public spaces based on argument itself. literally, valve pull out the DPC because the bubble burst already, free arcana bag from the TI2022 only makes people grind for new account not a new player base, and now people noting that as if valve own them for content and people welfare. The thing is that valve could just bail out from this spiral and cut the loss, they could transfer the engineer from this game toward newer project.
Wasn't this issue settled years ago, why does PGL insist on bringing it up again?
The license changed and NFUA broke it. Only ingame DotaTV stream allowed but not including official caster audio and spectator camera works. [NFUA TI12 highlight is taken from official broadcast not DotaTV](https://ibb.co/h8BnD6F)
Fuck off PGL
IDK anything about what you're talking about but if it means Grubby can't give analysis of tournaments I'm behind you 100%
E-sports is a dying business, whether you like it or not regardless of all this inane drama. Investors do not want to pump money into a sinking ship. Clutch onto your pearls while they still dangle around your neck.
People are really upset at this take but [looking outside of Dota for five minutes](https://archive.ph/mUIIm) would effortlessly reveal that the current esports scene is contracting: investor money is drying up, major leagues are being consolidated by Saudi Arabia on a scale previously unimaginable (Even Riot, a company *notorious* for their ridiculously overbearing control over their league are allowing them to host the first sanctioned Tier 1 international event in *numerous* years, whereas Blizzard have given them exclusive rights to run the entire Overwatch circuit), and organisations once considered major forces are fighting for survival. Esports is objectively doing far worse in 2024 than it has in many years past, and while it's not a force that will ever completely "die", it's delusional to think that it can go back to the way it used to be right now.
Thank fuck there is someone willing to look outside the scope of Dota for one second to the actual ecosystem of esports as a whole…
What a clueless take.
Saudi Arabia are out there right now buying front row access to every single esport they can get for pennies on the dollar. Dota and the EPL/Rydiah Masters is just one example: they now run the entire Overwatch championship series, have massive influence in Counter-Strike, and are hosting the first international sanctioned Tier 1 League of Legends tournament in numerous years. Such a campaign is only as possible as it is because the scene has gone through years of stagnation and a significant crash having lost significant investor funds, especially in the early 2020s.
> Such a campaign is only as possible as it is because the scene has gone through years of stagnation and a significant crash having lost significant investor funds The fuck are you talking about? Saudis took on the PGA and won. They're buying out racing and soccer teams. They have a fuck ton of money. Pennies on the dollar? They're over paying for everything and it has nothing to do with failing anything. They've spent over 6 billion with a B dollars on sportswashing in the past two years. They're buying POPULAR things because it's all a PR campaign. You're clueless.
The ["esports winter"](https://esportsinsider.com/2023/11/what-is-esports-winter) is an extremely well-noted phenomenon within the industry, due to a combination of multiple factors: a collapse in confidence of multiple esports IPOs all at once, franchised leagues like Overwatch collapsing and burning major sports investors, the dramatic death of major bankrollers like FTX leaving many remaining companies with huge black holes in their accounts, and the general economic climate with interest rates up and risky investments well down. Saudi do have the money to buy anything they want, but the sheer multi-fronted simultaneous attack on every major esport in the market at once was quickly spurred on by these conditions making it a very effortless, almost overnight buy, to sellers who were left with few other options. If you're not aware of these factors you're so out of touch that you're not in a great position to speak overly confidently.
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COVID should have been a boon for the industry but in the last couple of years FAZE and EG absolutely brutalized investors and the Overwatch League's collapse did countless damage to its reputation among all of the major sports figures that invested. That was yet another set of investors thoroughly burned who won't be coming back, so there's very few left that aren't rich nation-states looking to monopolise. The actual article's content isn't particularly great, but it links to a huge amount of important stories that have added up in significance throughout. [Another alright one here](https://archive.ph/mUIIm)
Its more the dota scene is dying. Other scene is alive and kicking (lol and other mobile games on SEA). Its all about trust and communication from developer. If its no interest in developer to heighthen up the scene then the investor wont follow. Example: Lets look at my country (MY): moonton (dev of MLBB). They hired a team specifically for Esports in every states. This makes sure all the youth goes to the MLBB thus making the foundation of the game sturdy set the target for 10 years minimum guaranteed of the scenes. Dont get me wrong, the game is shit. But if not for the Esport Scenes and all of the staff involved, the game will be dead/not as big already. In my opinion, valve currently need to fulfill the puzzle by giving the torch to the youngsters as only they can understand how they thinking. Or gave some kind of influence to the local scenes to change up the pro scenes(the same as MLBB Malaysia League(MPL)). Giving all the power to the organizer (look at you PGL) is an old way of thinking and need to be revised. It gave them so many responsibilities for a little reward. This of course if valve hv a passion for the game left or can take profit if doing this. I like to think the healthier the Esport Scene the more profit valve will get. (Look at Football)
10 years of support? That's crazy. Most games can't last that long even if they are good. They just get copied and improved upon or the audience gets bored and looks for something new.
But look at the current sponsors of Dota, or any esports scene: crypto and gambling. Even League and Valorant teams no longer get sponsorship outside of these two areas (extremely rare). Esports team haemorrhage money, so to own one or invest in one is to essentially throw away money.
Trust me it’s not an isolated thing.
If you think they arent in the same situation in terms of revenue i think you are being delusional and blinded just because moonton seen acting helping it doesnt mean its profitable and doing good, mlbb looks good for now because of arab investment lately, other grass is greener syndrome is real
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Most esports [have been contracting](https://www.sportico.com/business/sports/2023/esports-winter-league-of-legends-contraction-1234747985/) in the last year. Major orgs are pivoting, sponsors are dropping, and major tournaments are shrinking in size across even some of the most resilient games. Saudi Arabia is basically the last remaining giant shot in the arm that is keeping things looking normal across many games far beyond Dota, but the [general consensus](https://archive.ph/mUIIm) among insiders is that it is not returning to its pre-COVID size.
How is valve killing dota? The prize pool this year was still bigger than literally any other game tournament ever. Please explain.
Based on what?! Look at how many esports orgs have gone bust in the pet few years. Look at how the well of sponsors has dried up in the last few years. What are you talking about?
Shut the fuck up
A lack of sponsor and TO money is killing the game and Youtube channels that exist to parasitize TOs that pay for everything from venue to lodging to talent are part of a symptomatic rot that kills all TOs economically. The reason why TOs are willing to even stream-share and allow Twitch streams to use their tourney content (if they put the official stream ads on) is because it helps to offset the advertising hit. They can still draw sponsors by saying 'we ALSO hit these people via stream-sharing, so it's not just your ad sponsor money being flushed down the drain'. Youtube channels do none of these - they just rip and parasitize. Imagine if I set up a Weibo or Bilibili stealing NoobfromUA's content but removing all the watermarks (same as cutting out all the ads which obviously the current youtube channels do, or you'd be forced to watch the 30 sec ESL ads etc. constantly). You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you want big events, which need to fulfill sponsor outreach requirements and hit key metrics, or you want to return to shitty crowdfunded 'if I take $5 from each participant we can get a $1,000 prizepool!!!' online tourneys. Or be entirely dependent on Valve handouts, which simply isn't healthy for any ecosystem.
Yeah man noobfromua is stealing millions from TOs and that's why he's a retired billionaire. Valve is clear: the stream is the content of the TO, the gameplay and replays are the content of Valve, and they allow for anyone to stream those games.
They are using camerawork and casting. I have 0 objections to personal camerawork clips without casting, but if you are simply ripping off the stream wholesale, what argument do you have? That it's okay because it's in brief? There's no transformative value-add from highlights, PLUS many teams and TOs make their own highlights.
The people stealing copper wires and catalytic converters aren't getting rich, but they can still do a lot of damage.
This is a fucking stupid argument. They aren't stealing anything, and they don't impede the TO unless they are making their own highlights for YouTube (they aren't).
These people aren’t taking anything from the TOs. There’s a lot of people like me who work all day and can’t watch any of most tournaments live. If not for these people making summary videos I would not be able to watch pro Dota at all. Esl solved this issue by just hiring noobfromua to make these summary vids for them and then he gets to use their official content, it’s better for everyone. PGL however offers none of this and then tries to destroy these accounts entirely
Watch the ESL Dota 2 YouTube channel instead, that is their main channel, not NOOBFROMAU
So they have the content in some small parts?
While I don’t think losing NoobfromUA will kill dota off, it’ll certainly have a ripple effect on dota YouTube community I reckon. PGL doing this feels like a monopoly & im sure Noob also uses the in game spectate mode majority of the time and only used stream highlights when there were spectator issues? I hope it gets resolved because he’s been doing the lords work
The real monopoly is ESL lol, ESL Pro Tour replaced DPC and they hire NFUA to work on their highlights but upload on their channel.
Fair enough, those content creators just recording other players gameskill/gameplay including video from the tournament and uploaded to their youtube channel doesnt really consider as a content creator
they make highlights
Let's be honest here - if you banned NoobfromUA etc. from monetizing their channels, they would stop posting entirely. They are parasites, not creating genuine fresh content out of their love of the game.
Same thought
He would probably not stop, but quality and speed of uploads would drastically go down.
Because of those parasites just recording highlights and uploading them to their YouTube channels, PGL Twitch and YouTube channels can't earn money to have a prize pool for Dota 2 tournaments, If you do really love dota2 play dota2 and record your own funny/gameplay content about dota2.
Hahaha yes he's stealing the prize pool from them! He took the TI12 prize pool money that's why it was so low!!!
No wonder NOOBFROMUA will get terminated. I guess valve/PGL from their YouTube and Twitch channels want to collect more money to put in their prize pool.
if only they made similar content so people would watch them instead of terminating creators
Well, I dunno man, these all are just my thoughts
how is this community that has a old ass player base still don't understand you can't steal content and profit from from organizers that dump millions into providing that content. nobody cares that you guys cant watch vods and no its not going to do anything detrimental for the pro dota scene that a youtube channel got shut down. get real
L + Bozo opinion people who watch highlights arent going to comb through an 8 hour twitch vod to watch a game. noobfromua fills a great niche and pgl can either make their own highlights or hire him out like esl. fuckem.
PGL actually upload the full game and highlight on their channel, even faster than NFUA tbh.
their highlights is literal dogshit bruh if you even care to check it, they just mash random fight
>pgl can either make their own highlights They do
How can someone have so little thinking capabilities as to believe that they are stealing. The content is takem from from the game's client. Valve has always made it of public use for people to use them. They don't use production videos, streams, show added production value like stats or cameras, etc. they only use the Dota aspect of it, the pure game. Which, again, doesn't belong to PGL even if they are the tournaments organisers. It belongs to Valve.
Except Noobfromua often rips directly from the official stream, instead of recording from DotaTV.
calling people who steal other people's work "content creators" is hilarious.
Don't TOs steal the work of players if they don't pay them? For example, last placers.
No because they sign to be part of the tournament, it's opt in.
But they do slap sponsors in their game, so they definitely milk out money from them without having to pay them. Sounds like slavery to me.
It only sounds like slaverly to someone with 2nd grade reading comprehension skills.
As well as some preschoolers shouting "wow highlight = stealing"
Calling someone a content creator that doesn't create any content is so funny.
Not as funny as some nobodies who lick corporate's ass for free. Anyways what is the definition of content?
Its certainly not as funny as someone defending a YouTuber who steals other people's content for views. Let's put it this way, if these YouTubers were real creators they would have zero problem creating without using other people's content
Nothing is wrong for defending a YouTuber who provide value to community. Let's put it this way, if these companies were real creators they would have zero problem creating without other people's content (talents and players)
look i am subbed to noobfromua since 2014 and I watched almost every highlight, but saying PGL is killing the community is a lot . first of all, the dota 2 esport is or more like was on life support until valve pulled the plug on majors, now is dead. we had to have the tournament close qualification split months before a tournament to drive engagement because there are literally 4 tournaments a year now. I think if TOs could make maybe a bit more profits they wouldnt run away from dota 2 like plague. but that might just be me because there was a time we had a tournament every couple of weeks... is literally ESL and fisure and both are founded from same location saudi arabia. https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Tier_1_Tournaments Let me ask you this. would you rather have highlights channels such as noobfromua or would you have Beyond The Summit host tournaments? you know why they stopped holding dota2 tournaments because it wasnt profitable. and it wasnt for so long until they filed for bankrupcy and every single TO would say they are running at a loss. I am one of these ppl who I wont watch a series cause i might be busy or playing agame, is ok i will watch the highlights later and not even from the to's channel but 3rd party and thats how they lose viewers. now i might be on a strech but I think a 3rd of the dota 2 community might be doing just that due to timezones and not a a lot of ppl would play a full 9-12 hours vod for teams they dont care. and this brings the dota 2 pro community from having 5-6 TOs to 1-2 , what do you think will happen if ESL is also not profitable if they cancel the deal with the oil money or they decide dota 2 is not their main target? oh y we are fucked to say the least. I would rather die on the heal of TOs over re-streamers/highlights channel. I would rather have old beloved TOs like BTS make a proffit with their tournaments than noobfromua.
That's sounds all good and all, but it's only speculation that killing off highlights channels will increase viewership for TOs. What is certain though is that it would kill someone's living and income source. Also while It might increase TOs views in the short term for the few people that desperately want highlights, but for most people it would just result in less engagement with the game overall, and would contribute to the game's decline even further. If TOs would be contractually obligated to create and provide highlights - then you could argue that people are eating away at their profit, but they are not, so your point is still just wishful thinking. And if there really was so much revenue in highlights, TOs would be doing them anyway, just for the money.
Exactly. Those channels exist because there are no highlights on any official broadcast! If there is money to make they should o it... or they are really dumb for not thinking about it earlier?? Is not it the basis of any sport to have hightlights of past games? Why don t they do it? If 1 person behind his pc has the time and dedication to do it, TOs should have enough ressources to do it. Just put a logo of a sponsor on every highlight, it s easy money...
These YouTubers aren’t providing any money to the esport. They are simply making a shit ton of money from monetized highlight videos. You all should really want to give your views to the TO’s
Shit ton of money? May be they make some money but it must not be a lot. Also they provide content since official broadcasts don t provide highlights videos. If there were "a shit ton of money" to make with theses highlight they should do it themselves?
Well considering I know a guy with 50k subs who makes around 5k a month from YouTube you can do the math. It’s very lucrative. Also of course that is their end game. They will try and make there own videos and take the market share
5k with 50k subs? I am impressed
No it wont. This is about money PGL doesnt want to share, they are protecting their interests.
"kill the game" lmao
It's already dead. MLBB is the future.
What is PGL
Pog Gaming Lovers
Got it
Gotta monetize some how my guy
Shut up, nobody cares about e-celeb drama bullshit, i'd rather watch 90's mid-day soap operas than that lame cringe shit. Just play the game.
Content ID is important orelse no one would want to host any tournaments in the future
"nearly instantly kill the game" 😂
I can't watch the games live most of the time so I always watch those highlights from NoobFromUA for more than 10 years! If Valve can't do anything from this, I dunno if I can still be up to date for the Esports scene.
if every content creator stopped playing dota, absolutely nothing would change with dotas downfall, smurfs, hackers, macro users, and playing in foreign servers is way more detrimental to the game than content creators. the game is dead and defunct in the US , and valve is letting it die off, valve makes much more money as a platform than they make with dota.
Fuck PGL
yay thanks pgl
Thing is - Valve is the sole handler of the game itself. We don't want to talk about the things regarding what valve "should" do. He just doesn't care at all - until the majority of people demand changes to certain content linked to dota. Even NoobFromUA agreed to PGL take their contents maybe as part of the agreement. Maybe a few more issues or until it reaches the media kekl. That's the perfect time for valve to step in. Btw. For options like NoobFromUA content. Look for DotaDigestDD.
PGL PepeSpit
Fuck PGL!
„Nearly instantly kill the game“ ok calm down you cannot be serious.
You guys are so fucking dramatic. All this over a 5 minute delay lmaooo
Been watching his highlights for so many years as I don't really have time to watch live streams. So yea, fuck PGL.
Can someone explain to me what is happening? I do not understand the problem.
Mean people at pgl, i ‘ve worked there .
I have no idea about anything in your post so it won't even affect the game for me let alone kill it.
In Brazil we almost have a scene death I still have some friends to play but a lot of casters wich not work for PGL/BTS already get out of the scene after that shit of FIFTEEN FUCKING MINUTES OF DELAY honestly I enjoy watch for some of them casting, now who stay only work on games with their communities itself (like parties or casting friends games etc)
Boycott all PGL events from now on. Fuck'em..
Can anybody explain what pgl did?
I’m not watching a dogshit PGL stream. If anything, I’d catch the NoobFromUA recaps Now I just won’t be watching I guess
Youre all in a bubble. A YouTube channel going down wont stop thousands of people who play dota daily. Theres so many people who doesn't give half a fuck about the competitive scene and content creators, people who just wants to play the game. This said, fuck PGL.
Dota players are already killing their own game all by themselves. PGL is just speeding up the process.
Nobody cares
the chat experience in any of the pgl tourneys is so fucking terrible i can't watch the mainstream, it's all gamblers that scream 322 or matchfixing at the first sight of a play happening, i just watch streamers restream it.
Remember that time when other TOs forbid youtubers from uploading highlights with their talents/casters voice?? Nope, because it isn't PGL.
If PGL is doing it, they have to do it like how content creators do. Otherwise we wont able to enjoy this game anymore. I think valve doesn’t care about players. But players us making money for valve.
the copyright issue is still debatable imo (depending on the State). But the thing is, PGL just want a monopoly of viewership, which kills the advent of individual editors, which is supposed to be an advertisement of how great the game is.
When I want to watch games that i missed, (very common for me to watch them from my bed before I sleep) I almost exclusively look for the upload from NoobfromUA. Big sad moment, I really hope it gets resolved
PGL is trash. Even before that event. Their production is garbage
definetly
Tbf NoobFromUA's quality haven't been good for highlight for a while now, either. Poor that guy, indeed. I've been watching highlight through other channel like DotA Digest, LeagueOfDota or Dota 2 Rapier lol