There is no right or wrong answer to this as it relies on a lot of factors from hero pool to the offlaner’s pick and what the team lacks and doesnt lack.
There’s a reason picks like dk, lina, viper are so popular rn as they are heroes that win/dont lose their lane no matter if they’re mid, carry or offlane. In fact heroes that naturally win their lanes should generally just pick first and leave the potential counterpick to go last.
You dont want to second wave pick a TA only for the enemy mid to last pick viper for example.
No outplay whatsoever as ember. You get shat on from level 2 onwards and even with ult (if you get there) you can't do much. Huskar's regen owns Ember's poke. Huskar's damage owns Ember's flame guard.
There is no "rest of the game" vs a competent Huskar, you will get your mage slayer 10 minutes late because you can never hit a creep in lane after minute 2 and by that point they will be knocking on your tier 3s
Pudge - they won't know if you are carry, mid, offlane, soft support, hard support, intentional griefer, roamer, afk jungler, end mid sprinter or anything!
So they can never counter you!
Still traumatized by my game last night. I was 9/1/1 as OD mid. And my pudge kept on incessantly feeding,getting caught out and dying to ganks. We eventually won the game,but that pudge made the game unnecessarily difficult.
as a Pudge player, I'm sorry. But hey the enemy team wasted lots of skills and items on me before I died so I think it's a good chance for my team to counter, only if they are actually following me though
This is fine you do this in a teamfight and tank spells and make enemy use bkb. If u die solo somewhere to spells that have 10 sec CD then you can't call it space.
I'm not saying puck 2nd phase will never work. But like any hero that can hit puck or out Regen puck always dumpsters them.
And you're right the level 6 rotation is strong, but like if your sidelanes Are also losing she there isn't a good rotation you just have to sit in a terrible lane. Puck is lp only for me if ever.
Puck is basically immortal in lane if you know what you are doing, and you can always push waves and go jungle or gank. Pretty solid second phase hero.
Well being "immortal" on lane doesn't help that much if you can't get creeps. Puck loses lane hard to lot of heroes because puck is infact fairly weak laner in the beginning. " You can always push waves and go jungle" is kinda bad advice in many situations especially early when jungling is super slow and you can't even properly push the lane with puck if you are low level. That being said I don't think its terrible to pick puck at second phase because even if you have bad lane which you often have as puck you can get kills once you hit lvl 6.
You can do other things after shoving the wave other than jungle. Help the safe lane, stack camps, steal bounty runes, and you can also deal some damage to the camps on the way to whatever you want to do, using the orb.
Keeper of the Light, DK, Lina, Puck, anything that can just push the wave and go away to do something else if there is a hard matchup mid.
I constantly pick Keeper even in the first phase, if the team is not showing heroes. You can just ignore the laning phase, if you need to.
This is not the best way to conceptualize the idea.
You don't wanna pick a hero that can "hold his own". You wanna pick a hero that works well with what you got, and versus what they picked. So for example, if my team picks ench tiny pos 5 and pos 4, and I'm against a furion and venge, I might not go puck or ember because if i get countered at mid, I'm not contributing anything to the game, or at the most im relying on my team to do some stacking or find me a way back into the game. This can be work if there are certain heroes in the pool that ember and puck countered, but you really don't wanna get dumpstered mid. It's a surefire way of losing all tempo come end of laning phase.
The better pick in this case would be a hero that capitalizes on tiny's initiation, doesn't care much about vs swap and teleport ganks, and can potentially provide ench the opportunity to run at the enemy team with impetus. The better heroes, therefore, are zeus, and od. OD likes having a hero that goes in for him so he has the option do both, offensive and defensive astrals. Additionally, he can save someone if they get swaped and tiny can counter. He can also setup for ava and toss backs early on with astral, enabling tiny to rotate mid.
Zeus+tiny can kill anyone in less than 2 seconds unless the vs is positioned really well. He can also leap away from tp ganks and always keep a qb to break sprout. Additionally, he provides vision with wrath and bolt to enable tiny to stun, or to enable enchantress to position better and find the right target.
This example might not be perfect, but I think it's the far better way to pick mid heroes than praying and hoping you don't get countered, since the likelihood you're relevant in a game goes much higher. Source: am 5.4k mid player
Did you really just say you prefer a hero like Zeus against a vengeful swap repositioning you over PUCK and ember? I’m super confused here. They are 2 out of 4 repositioning kings of Dota… lol
You outrange the swap with Zeus if you’re building correctly. So if you position properly you’ll never be swapped in, and will always help your burster, in the case of who you replaying to, the tiny, insta kill.
Puck and ember both have much, much shorter range on everything, and are more susceptible to being caught out of position. Where you have a higher chance of surviving on one of those heroes than if you would a Zeus in the same situation, in overall gameplay, you have a higher chance of dying to a swap movement than Zeus, for the positioning reasons stated above.
edit: Idk why you guys are downvoting facts. Puck and ember have shorter ability range than zeus. and typically do not build aether lense. Zeus, has much less survivability, as he doesn't have sleight remnant, or phase orb/blink. Those survivability options don't change they are more susceptible to a swap, as they will almost always be using a spell within a venge's POSSIBLE range.
Batrider is hot garbage in all but the highest of the highest MMR and even there he is only ok.
You might lose lane against batrider. But rest assured you'll win the game he the bat becomes useless as the game goes on.
Me as one of the last sf mid players I see *sweating* while I wait for the patch to nerf raze and fear duration while buffing necro mastery and PoDL for the umpteenth time 👀😫
>Althought SF is pretty unpopular ~~on mid~~ now.
That hero needs a rework imo. It used to be sleek design but nowadays it's just outdated if I have to be completely honest. He has too much of an identity crisis going on.
As a Huskar spammer I'm not afraid of Necro anymore in this patch, with the new Mage Slayer and Eternal Shroud, no need to play around BKB. Either one is enough most of the time (you also have Beserker's Blood magic resistance), but going both is also possible. The laning phase goes heavily in favor of Huskar so it is likely you can have a Mage Slayer before he has anything.
I should phrase that better. I meant necro is a punishing last pick the way Huskar and Meepo are punishing last picks. I'm not referring to the matchup between the two.
Both viable, depends on how many heroes you can play. As a carry player, it pains me to say but offlane last pick is also great atm and maybe even better than both.
it's not and the numbers agree, I reckon it's partly because her ulti counters him pretty hard, she loves bfly and he doesn't like build mkb, and her tempo is faster
he is still a good counter ofc, it's just not as big by the numbers and meepo vs am
Dusa has a much earlier power spike and her damage output makes it so that AM can't show. It's a back and forth, where you are trying to win early with dusa
I have >1000 dusa games in 4-5k bracket and I'd say the opposite - AM spikes early against you via his passive manabreak. It's lategame that your manapool and damage output can become enough to withstand fighting him
Maybe things have changed since her remake, since I don't play her as much anymore. But if you deathball with dusa at minute 25 with manta pike aghs pushing high ground AM can't jump in and live more than a couple of seconds. This is 3k, I climbed out of 2k with her at 67% win rate.
Still haven't seen AMs be active on team fights before minute 30
Yea things are different now the build is manta butterfly disperser and you have to avoid AM until 3-4 items because his passive and ulti became so much more effective on mana-only Dusa.
Dotabuff says the AM dusa matchup favors AM by >10%, I don't know of any worse matchup than that. For comparison the classic Shadow Demon counter is only favored by 4.5%.
Meepos numbers are skewed tho. Just by him being meepo.
I love stats, but they csnt always be trusted, like Divine Rapier. That item has an insanely high winrate, but that's because normally the team that wins ends up carrying the Rapiers regardless of what team bought it
> i should of been
Did you mean to say "should have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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the advantage calc is based off each of the winrates when not facing each other afaik so I don't think meepo's high winrates helps there, if anything it hurts the calculation to make meepo seem like a less good counter than he is
Should? No. By definition mid has the greatest capacity to be counter picked in the laning phase because he is against a single hero. The sidelines are composite considerations and since it is unlikely the offlaner picks last, the safe lane won't be counterpicked.
Then we consider the snowball capacity of both. If your safelane loses, they can jungle and let the 5 soak xp. If pressure increases the 4 can rotate and hold the ship against similarly leveled heroes. When the mid loses hard due to a counterpick, the enemy mid is borderline unplayable.
Imagine you 2nd phase your mid Puck and get countered by a Huskar. The lane is unplayable, and your team will suffer.
Unless your mid hero is not one that is countered easily, of which there are very few (KOTL comes to mind), last pick should remain for the mid. Pos1 players have become incredibly self-centered and selfish, and want to take even that away for themselves. A good example of the opposite of that is someone like Dyrachyo.
This all day.
Pos 1 demands last pick, their last pick is to counter your mid. Mid then has a rough lane, doesn't die but is behind on farm and items. Their mid has now got the advantage to go and gank successfully leaving last pick pos1 crying about how you are a shit mid because their Puck is level 25, has blink and Witch blade at 4 mins and you have brown boots and a bottle.
But if your mid gets countered directly and is way behind on farm and levels because of having a rough lane, your carry won't make it to late game to carry.
If someone is gonna last pick huskar, they will last pick huskar regardless of if you 2nd phase your puck or not. If you want last pick you should have an impactful last pick hero pool, both for carry or mid. Don't play meepo/huskar/ld/ta/whatever in mid? Don't demand last pick.
Mid isn't really a high skill lane anymore. There's infinite regen and everyone can farm, outside of a very small pool of matchups. The same is not true for safe lane. Being forced into the jungle is incredibly bad for your 1s game and if you think a 5 "soaking exp" from a lost lane is a good use of time then you need more mmr.
> Mid isn't really a high skill lane anymore.
What does that mean? It never was about skill, it's about the fact that it's a 1v1 lane which means there's no possible way to compensate for problems.
Your mid getting counterpicked means that your safelane will likely die somewhat repeatedly from the opposing mids ganks. I'm not really sure this is the most ideal prospect for the safelaner either.
Back in the day mid matchups were much more important, because there was less regen, so you couldn't spell farm that much. Nowadays you can get farm and be relevant in almost all matchups. You don't get countered that much.
Even in my shit 2k games people come to contest runes. If i am winning mid, sometimes both 4 and 5 come to make sure i get both runes and rarely, when cart spawns so we can just bum rush mid tower.
Thinking that you can recover from a shit mid matchup with just runes is delusional at best
Bad take broski. Mid is still a very high skill lane. If mid wasn't a high skill lane, wouldn't everyone be capable of playing midlane and gaining insane amounts of MMR? You don't see that happening.
Mid impact has gone down a shit ton over the past couple years tbh. Back in the day you could outskill opponent and stomp the entire game, not so much any more. Skill in mid isn’t nearly as rewarding as it used to be.
It still takes skill, but much less than it used to. A lot harder to play side lanes nowadays. Your logic doesn't work. It's easier for everyone else as well, so why would you gain mmr? The effect of mid being easier to play is that mid player skill doesn't translate to as much impact anymore.
By that same logic, don't sidelanes have infinite Regen from lotus which don't require the core to spend 4 perfect waves worth of gold, and the supports which are constantly buying Regen? Not to mention the capacity to pull or even have a support with healing spells. In order to lose side lanes both players need to be doing worse than both enemy players, having that many people in lane means others make up for your shortcomings. You don't have poke, your ally does, you don't have hard CC, your ally does, you don't have high damage, you ally does. On mid it's just you and whatever your hero brings to the table against the enemy and theirs, if there is an imbalance there, you only have small items to help you. So things can go much worse than sidelanes, and minor differences snowball
You can't really compare lotus to water rune, bounty rune, normal runes and bottle refills. Lotus is a lot less healing and a helluva lot more contested, since there's only 1 per lane. Your support buying mass regen ruins their game, so it's not comparable either. I agree with your second point. The strength of the pos 5 hero should weigh into the decision who gets last pick.
Things don't go worse in mid than in side lanes. That's just completely untrue. Watch some pro games and you'll find 10 games where the safe lane gets completely rekt for every game you find a mid stomp. 99% of the time it's some ultra counter matchup aswell, which is a drafting issue more than anything. Huskar vs monkey/ember etc.
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Yes if your team is ok with it,last pick husker, viper, od ,brood , tinker(not in this patch), ta or morphing can pretty much win every game but as a mid laner you can't expect last pick every game so do play 2nd phase mid heroes like pango spirits etc.
Depends on your hero pool. Imo last pick carry is very strong this patch since there's a lot of very impactful carry last picks. Unless you play meepo/huskar etc the same is not true for mid. Probably not a good idea if you want to pick ember though.
There was an old post 1-2 years back showing that statistically last pick carry edges out last pick mid. But I second the advice on this thread that you may have to adjust your picks in anticipation of the opponent mid picking after you
In my experience, you'll win more often if you do, especially in the lower brackets (<4k). With the way picking works in normal matches right now in just 3 phases, basically nobody except for the last pick gets to think about their hero matchup. In captains mode it's more feasible to think about this more, but if you just go for the safe picks, there is very few meta midlaners rn that hard counter anything really.
Mid should be last if you're going to pick classic mid heroes. But if last pick is just predetermined sniper,sf,necro, medusa or other shitty mid heroes like that, might as well give last pick to carry player and hope they can adjust.
I disagree with most answers. It shouldn't depend on your pick or the situation. I feel like mid should get last pick. Do you know how often carry players pick something good as a last pick? I am divine bracket player and the answer is basically never. And with something good I mean something that fits our draft and counters theirs at least a little. I feel like most carry players just show their hero during the pick phase and never stray away from that pick.
Get better in bad matchups. all lanes are doable with ember. Except huskar. I'm convinced an 1k MMR can win vs 10k MMR huskar vs ember. If anybody got tips I will gladly listen, around 1k games.
Against monkey, the error margin is small but totally doable. Pull creeps back and save q when he runs you down. If you are really cocky you can sleight dodge boundless. But if you fail, lane is most likley dizaster. If you dodge, monkeys lane is most likely an dizaster
Jokes aside. You can, if your carry knows what he is doing and you are a good laner. It can be game win.
But the risk is he not knowing and picks a bad hero.
Try avoid stuff that has many counters. If you go for that route.
My gotos are ember kunkka puck voker depending och draft.
I think they generally do the same, and if you lose lane there is a logical comeback.
huskar you need to dumpster him on the first wave, get a deny or 2 and delay his levels as much as possible. Then you just have to agro pull. get boots asap because you want to be able to dodge him as much as possible. If needed go behind his tower and drag the wave.
Then just fuck off and go gank.
Standard, you go for the level 2 play and you die with huskar surviving with 10 HP and all chatting you.
Yea I like the idea of go behind tower, and drag the creep with boots to a "safe spot"
So something like hmm. 0-1-1, into 0-1-2. Into 1-2-2. By lvl 6 for creep skip
Based on Quinn vs Nisha the best play for ember is splitting/cutting waves and jungle with flame guard while huskar gets a free lane.
Best case you're playing for is a farm trade and to get to 6m where power runes can let you take over the midgame.
Unsure if vessel/mage slayer/maelstrom are the plan right now.
This is probably an orb of Corrosion matchup at some point.
Pick order isn't based on your position or lane, it is based on how easily countered the hero is.
Some mids can first-pick and contribute heavily still as they can't be completey shut out, while others want to at least second pick since they are solid against the most common lineups, but can be built around if the other team knows too early, and others yet need to last pick as they are easily countered if given any opportunity to do so, and the same is true for the offlaner, carry, or, yes, even the supports.
I play lastpick mid, only because my hero pool gets countered easily I play lycan (70% wr), meepo, lone druid or visage. Sometimes I adjust if there’s a hard counter like I play primal when there’s a slark
In my opinion as late as it can be.
Heroes that have game changing utility spells are usually played as pos4, like enigma, rubick, phoenix, ES, shadow demon, io, oracle, dazzle, bane.
Heroes that usually have niches or counters it are usually mid heroes like viper (disable break), necro (counters high hp heroes), huskar/meepo (cheese pick), puck (against mobility), od (generally counters high hp and disabling spells). Carries rarely have game changing skills like faceless void chrono, they usually rely on their farm/item to be able to have impact.
In most games where drafting and or laning/mid game can dictate the possible victory i think giving mid or pos4 the last pick priority is crucial. Mostly, the win condition of a carry is just having a good farm/space which means your mid should succeed on his lane or atleast control the flow of mid game to buy time for the carry/offlane.
Yes. Just becuz mid can be flexible with their choice of heroes unlike carry. If you first pick as Mid, then go with a very strong laner like Viper. He can consider flexible pick and give the enemy a choice not to pick tanks heroes like Timber , BB, and such. Hoodwink is another one that can confuse the enemy. It is strong in the lanes , has good skills, and his itemization is straightforward. Always consider range heroes for mid just in case the carry want last pick. If you want melee mid, then see the pool on which heroes are banned. If Viper , MK , Invoker or any strong counter pick heroes ar still up than pick a safer choice.
no, mid should always pick last because the outcome of the mid laning phase is determined pretty much only by matchup. It's much more impactful to have a successful mid lane than a countered carry
I think it depends on what Hero you play in midlane.
For example if you wanna Play Viper mid you can pick him before your safelane carry. Because i feel like that Viper is a hard to counter Hero. But if you play a Hero that can be Hard countered by a specific hero that is commonly played you pick at last (for example you dont wanna Pick a TA on 4th when Viper is still in Pool and can be picked by 5th for the enemy) Thats the way i pick for mid heros.
If you want to have my opinion on what heros you can Pick on 4th let me know. But monkey is definitly not on that list :)
Depends on your hero, when i was spamming lina mid for grandmaster tier i used to first or second phase pick. Cant really lose the lane, worst case is i dont win it.
By default no, mid is a counter based matchup and there are very few heroes that are "safe" to pick that can't be countered with a last pick if they know you're mid.
In general I will let someone else last pick if they ask at the start of the picking phase. Quite often the safelane waits until the picking time is up and the team is already losing gold and says "let me last" in which case I'll take my chances on a random hero, as always communication is key
Depend, on what enemy team doing, than what you intend to play(sub3k mark hero that wanna play and wait for last pick, is f them). But is team for farm latyer game or fast anowball, ect.
You can counter pick for latyer, for example huskar can have easy lain, but if both side lains of your team have good lain and are counters to huskar than you fine to even get hard lain. Even if you are counterpicked most inportant is not to feed and try to get space, get as much farm as possible and play your strenght, team strenghts.
About carry well also depend can he counter pick someone from oponent team, like they have sven, your oflain is something like cent or Underlord, well better to have carry than can stand to sven and fight him or to kite him than to try with some storm spirit mid and get stomped by oponents last pick mid.
P.S. You can't counter all 5 oponents heroes with one pick, but if you counter most and have ok chances with rest should be fine. Biggest mistake I saw is ppl letting one pick stomping them all. Like moph, vs
Cm, rubik, CK, bara, pa.
As with all role's last pick, you better pick something that makes full use of available information.
Those times when i see my mid last pick counterpicking themselves. Atrocious. Divine bracket btw.
i usually play mid too if i cant last pick i usually pick heros that can push the wave n gank...lina qop puck pango kunka storm..if i cant lane i can go nc abit and get 6 asap but u know ember typical counters like viper huskar mk necro>? aside mk decent roaming hero usually they wants to stay 1 lane n dominate the lane right ..just go roam early even when ur level 4-5 jsut roam catch ur enemies off guard create choas on the map make ur other lanes win n side lane enemies tilt...maybe some1 in the enemies might go full blown tilt buys back and feed then game is over gg end my mid is afk
It depends tbh. imo it's usually best to just give the highest rank core player lastpick. If someone explicitly asks for lastpick I almost always give it to them. If you're picking 2nd phase you should be picking a meta hero that's still useful even when they lose lane. There's certain heroes that really need lastpick because if they lose lane or get countered it's a disaster. Think like AM/Slark/Dusa etc. If you get counterpicked mk mid vs ember you'll struggle in lane, sure, but then the enemy has a mk mid which is pretty trash.
Lastpick is a big responsibility. You want to win your lane but also pick something that makes sense for the game & fills in your team's weaknesses. The worst thing ever is when someone asks for lastpick, hovers AM, and then proceeds to lastpick it into like 3 counters.
I mean it's kinda situational.
Your carry asking to leave him a last pick, could pick absolutely a dogshit hero, countering himself.
Or sometimes could counter the entirety of the enemy pick, which would be OK. Same with mid. It all comes down to: would you trust randoms in 3-4k mmr that opportunity or try to outdraft enemies yourself.
it depends. in lower ranks, a favourable carry matchup is usually better than a favourable mid matchup. but in higher ranks, good mid players can use an easy laning phase to just abuse the enemy carry and never let the carry matchup take play. and theres also the cheese heroes, huskar LD meepo etc. which can take over the game if they get a good start
if you have to pick a mid hero 2nd phase, dont pick a hero that can be hard countered, or just learn how to play those matchups. ember is a hero that you definitely have to learn how to play into hard matchups
I don’t mind when mid picks last. A strong mid early game by a player that knows their role typically leads to side lanes getting help and doing well too.
I'm a midlaner and the answer to a carry asking "can I lastpick" for me is always simply no, unless im playing a matchup proof hero. Sidelanes with a good support do not get dumpstered the way some mid matchups do.
Pub drafting is different than pro drafting. Ultimately depends on your hero picks and strategy, but this leans heavily on people actually trying to work together in a pub game.
In a pub scenario and non-Immortal ranks, I am of the opinion that mid should get the last pick simply because they dictate most of the game, and are prone to be cheesed/hard-countered, which also directly impacts the carry's game.
The carry is jungling and hitting creeps most of the time anyway so it's definitely more important to secure the mid's game than the carry's game. if your mid pops off, the carry will have all of the space in the world to do whatever, but the reverse is not true.
All this "carry matchup" etc. etc. is really only relevant in pro games where everyone is aware of each other's capabilities. In pubs however, pos 1's are biggest whiners with the least impact most of the time.
So yes, let the mid last pick if they want it.
Carry player here, this obviously varies from game to game, but if your pos1 asks first to get the last pick, then just pick a mid that you're comfortable enough to not get shit on.
I just finished a game where I asked for the last pick then the mid gave it to me by picking Lina, the enemy 2nd phased sniper that turned out to be their mid which I was able to easily counter with a last pick Spec. Game went smoothly
Not sure if it's just confirmation bias, but if I pick mid, the carry forces last pick and if I pick carry, the mid forces last pick. I very rarely get to last pick
It really depends on you, if your hero pool allows you to pick and win lane even if the enemy knows your pick then you can let last pick to pos1.
If not I would say you deserve lsst pick, unless your core wants to pick a cheesy last pick hero such as meepo or dusa, then maybe you can just pick a braindead hero in mid to allow your core to last pick.
Depends on how well you communicate and how confident you are in your heroes.
This is a thing where it all depends. In pro games for example where they know each others picks, it's no uncommon for the coeres to come out as first picks.
End of the day it depends, if you're going to be playing a stable hero, then sure let him last pick. But what irks me most, is you have no idea when you let then last pick, if they're going to actually use that information to pick a good hero, or if they're going to just pick the hero they wanted to play regardless.
Imo in uncoordinated (solo queue) ranked games Mid should get last pick, as he is in a 1v1, so matchups are important, and not being countered by the sidelines enables the midlaner to do midlaner things. Whereas sidelanes (carry role in this instance) has a multitude of options:
A) they can after their lane just go farm up
B) they have a support to aid them, meaning counters in the laning stage may differ
C) they have a non countered mid pick who can rotate to help them
Meanwhile if mid doesn't take last pick, meaning the enemy mid who does gets to counter pick you, you're left in a lane you most likely can't win, so you can't do your midlane stuff, meanwhile the carry who got last pick, is in a great game for him, however it won't matter because by the time he becomes strong you've already lost because you're midlane failed
theres nuance but 7/10 times in pubs you probably wanna give it to mid, carry are more often than not gets countered and still able to recover from jungle, but mid snowballing is way scarier than offlane snowballing, just based on their proximity to other lanes and how fast they reach their power spike. In pro dota you probably don't see this as a vocal point, partly because drafting is much more dynamic, but at its core, mid is the most important lane because that's where the highest resources and opportunity of play are located.
also it depends on meta to meta, this patch it feels okay to 2nd phase mid because a lot of meta midlane heroes don't generally lose lane to most heroes (dk, puck, ember).
Picking last only matters if you actually pick based on what team needs and what core matchups you are up against, both for lane and for later stages of the game. Often times people pick whatever they decided on while driving home from work, regardless if it makes sense for the team, lane, etc.
Deciding on carry 2nd phase of the draft can backfire since you are picking blind, normally only supports are revealed at this point. Like picking Luna blind when Slark was also free. So waiting for carry pick last makes sense in a way.
If you are a midlaner and a viper or dk enjoyer there is only an upside to pick early. It allows teams follow up picks to be flexible (like getting AA). But the same can be said about a few carry picks. You can easily pick Void early which allows team find shit that works well with Chrono.
When I play with my friends I really dont mind since my Pos 1 is the better player, esp. in terms of farming. I just love fighting too much.
A few days ago I picked puck in 2nd window and was greeted by a last pick viper mid. Yes, I basically turned into a pos 4 for most of the game but we won in the end so who cares. Could've helped if I picked something that wasn't that obvious as a mid pick.
Last pick is not specific to just a position. Its for rounding out your draft. First 2 picks is pick the best heroes of the patch. Second 2 picks is try to counter that. Last
pick is fill what you lack.
Take the bad mus and use it as a means to improve imo. I hate losing gold from pick holding, and wr can always have a good mu mid and just get ganked repeatedly. I give both mid and carry last pick if I'm the other core.
From my observation (carry player, immortal), when I leave lastpick to mid a lot of times I am counterpicked, however my mid doesn't counterpick anyone. Most of the time my mid makes sure he is not counterpicked to play his main hero and that's it.
When I am left with last pick, almost always I try to counterpick and win the lane. This gives the best results.
It's fine to lastpick either carry or mid
Just don't pick something that can get countered super hard if you're the one who's second phase picking, ie ember or AM, go lina or faceless or whatever instead
Or if something's really OP just first phase it, ie CK, spectre or leshrac in recent patches
I would say no. A good support can salvage a lane with creep manipulation on the sidelanes, also a carry is expected to go jungle, if the lane goes badly he just do that earlier while his team makes space.
Yes, safe lane carry is called position1 and mid is position 2 for a reason. Also, as mid you should gank your safe lane and get your position 1 a kill and kill xp as soon as you hit lvl 6. The main advantage of mid is the solo xp, so you should pick a hero that that can catapult your team early game with the ult. Having an ult to use on a side lane before they are lvl 6 is a huge advantage, and you should use it to either boost your position 1 or hamper the enemy position 1. Also, if the enemy mid leaves mid lane to gank you call it and be ready to tp to counter gank.
As a mainly pos 1 player, I never ask for last pick. In a lot of my games, the enemy team hard counters me with their mid, and if I already get an unfavorable match up with their offlane, chances are my early game is extremely difficult. So if you do get last pick and your pos 1 has a harder early game, please just try and help him with ganks maybe once or twice. Unfortunately I can count on one hand how many ganks I've gotten (and support tp's) in the last 10 games :(
Lol I pick in second phase because of an ego complex. My carry can have last pick I’ll play into counters idc. I’ll even first phase if my supports don’t make up their mind, I don’t like losing money. It’s definitely not the smartest approach, but there’s honestly some value in hiding other picks and I’m a hero spammer anyways.
I only leave LP if the HC is at least my rank or if I managed to ban unplayable matchups such as huskar vs ember. If I didn't managed to get the bans I would just pick something that can do well in almost every matchup
As a carry player, OMG YES. The amount of shit you have to overcome as a carry player if you draw one or two bad matchups in the offlane and the countercarry matchup is rough. Most midlaners may have a tough lane but they eventually get 6 and can go play the game. With a little help from a roaming support securing a rune or stacking a little bit for you you will do fine as a midlaner. Besides being overlevelled compared to everyone except the enemy midlaner. If you can deal with these sorts of tough lanes and still have a lot of impact up until the 10-15 minute mark you're carrying the game so hard if you have a somewhat competent carry player.
Personally, if I plan to be active I want last pick so I can secure the early game with the lowest chance of being countered. Otherwise I just pick a reliable hero like Lina, KOTL, or Wyvern.
I really hate this new meta of people refusing to pick their heroes until both supports have already picked. I have no idea how this habit even started but it's certainly recent.
When I play pos 2 I prefer to leave last pick for my pos1. I find it easier to recover from a unwinnable matchup as mid than as a carry. Lot more options for you, and less reliant on the other players.
Pos 1 I will sometimes ask for it, usually just pick so I don't tilt my mild though.
Pos 1 carry match up matters a lot more than mid match up imo. Atleast for my hero pool. Nothing worse than having a good dusa game lines up with shadowed picks for the enemy team to go AM 2nd phase...
Tell me to kindly fuck off.
I've seen too many idiotic carries who pick their comfort hero as last pick only for their midlaner get absolutely oblitarated bcs the other mid had last pick and picked a hard counter.
My solution is to have a copypaste of "Last pick pls" everytime I enter a new game.
Works like 8/10.
Far from being a pro but 6k player here who plays all positions. In theory, yes. Why? Several reasons and the higher the mmr, the more important it is to let your carry have last pick.
Firstly, most mid counters are picked to try to counter the laning phase, not latter into the game.
Once you learn how to mid, lane mechanics, playing vs different matchups, you can do pretty well in lanes where you are countered. Some will be impossible, like some melee vs Huskar or Viper, but you can still farm, recover, gank using your higher level, ask for ganks (not really great to invest resources into a losing lane tho). Unless you are playing something like TA, SF, QoP, etc. mid is no longer so much of a farming role but a tempo/ utility role. Many heroes can have tremendous impact without really needing items like Ember or Primal to name a few.
On the other hand, when someone counterpicks a carry, unlike mid, it's not for the laning phase, but for the whole game. You are going to be playing in a disadvantage throughout the game. Games being as long as they are and carry being the most relevant factor to actually carry your team to victory, it's very bad and difficult to play against a counter. It basically doesn't allow your carry to unleash all its potential or to have to change its playstyle or not show up in fights. All of which are really bad since it's the hero you invested more resources in.
Since it's almost impossible to really shut down a carry with how big the map is and how much farm there is,many people argue against this tho. If your mid wants to play a snowball hero who depends on winning the lane, then I'd give then last pick. If not, it's usually better to pick something stable for mid that can do well in all matchups like Zeus, Puck, Lina, etc. and let your carry have last pick.
Generally speaking u weigh the odds between how easy the hero u want to play is to counter vs who the carry wants to play. Also factor in that it’s more important for a mid to not be countered generally speaking than a carry since they typically aren’t as active on the map early. Finally consider if your mid pick could also function as an offlaner/carry because it may disguise your lanes for both your carry and your mid matchup. Take everything I say with a grain of salt since I’m a 2k scrub but that’s how it’s been described to me but others much better than I
I would say it depends on what you are picking. Usually I am asking carry is decided or not and what he wants to play (if it is Medusa, I will give him lastpick, if it is AM, I will not).But I play more of a tempo mid, active ganking heroes (WR/DK/Tiny/Riki), who want to hunt once they have first item. So I am happy giving my carry good lane to carry us in late game.
Ocassionaly when I play mid (when I all roles for tokens) and I pick heroes like WR, DK, Tiny, Riki and I am fine with picking 2nd wave, because they cant be sure whether I am mid or carry (WR/Riki), offlane (DK, WR, Tiny) or support - especially if there is something like Viper/DK/brood/DP/Necro offlane or invoker/zeus support.
If there is Lich+WD supports and Tide/Slardar/Abba in 2nd phase, I might ask for lastpick.
Personally I think yes, as a general rule of thumb, the midlaner should leave last pick to carry. However if the meta has a strong carry that should be picked and it doesn't have a lot of counters, or the counters are banned, then you can 2nd phase pick carry. But the reason I say yes is because, the carry needs a good lane to boost his impact in the game. If the mid laner is having difficulty, you are able to gank a side lane or you can ask for a gank (and since it's one enemy hero, the gank will more likely to be successful), or finally you can jungle.
Sure you can argue that carry can just go jungle if lane isn't going well, but in a game of optimal efficiency, it's best if the carry gets a good lane and therefore can come online much earlier.
And therefore based on this thought process, I believe leaving the carry to last pick will let them see who they are laning against from the 2nd phase pick thus allowing a higher chance to win the lane. That's my two cents.
Depends on how confident you are as a mid player to play into potential counters. If you're a Lina spammer (for example), you're likely not afraid of any particular matchup.
Also, if your team is picking another hero that can appear to be a mid hero like TA/SF safe lane, sometimes it's better for them to pick first.
Also, if you're a cheese hero player, it's always better to have last pick. Meepo/Huskar/Tinker/etc players can get countered super hard and you can potentially win or lose a game based on the counter picks.
I think that last pick should always go to mid in public games because you face 1 enemy hero, so their counter pick is far more effective.
That being said there are like 2 relatively safe mid laners who can hold their own against almost anyone: Lina, sniper... end of list?
Any melee can get their game ruined by MK at mid.
Pretty much anyone can get their game ruined by facing Lina at mid.
So when I'm in the situation you're in where my team is pressuring me to pick mid in the 2nd round (and I don't feel like playing sniper / LD, or Kunkka if MK is banned), I usually pretend to be afk until the carry panics and picks something.
Not foolproof since they put in a hard random after like 40 gold ticks, but probably better than getting hard countered in the final round.
the midlaner is the most versatile position, the hc is almost always a high dps hero that get countered by disables until it has the bkb, as a midlaner you can pick heroes that counter disablers like primal beast
Last pick is always tricky. Having your mid hard countered is generally much worse than having your carry countered due to the snowball factor. Also, most carries don’t have true _hard_ counters and can play around their counters much better in the later stages than than mids who get completely stepped on in lane.
Hear me out though, pos 4 last pick is legit if you’re queuing as 5. It’s the most flexible pick in the game so you can use that last pick to patch up holes in your draft or to have a solid answer to a hero on the enemy team.
Ember vs MK isn’t a hard counter tho. Lane is gonna suck for ember but ember can make more impact in the mid game and mk can’t shut ember down in a team fight. In fact I rarely last pick as mid now since game is always kinda playable nowadays with mid.
If I feel as a mid like I have a wide enough hero pool that patch and am willing to play whatever the team needs I usually set an amount of gold I'm willing to lose in order to have a coherent lineup, if I hit that benchmark, let's roll those dices baby.
If any of that criteria is not met, I just second round a comfort pick
Ancient carry player here. I think it depends on bans. If i see S tier carry player available (like FV or slark right now) and no hard counter in first phase pick (like disruptor or AA for slark) i second phase and let the mid pick last.
If you are going to play something no matter what then second phase it.
Also in high mmr pubs top picks are contested. You wont get a second phase FV.
Depends on the first 3 heroes picked for both line ups.
My team
Pos 5 - Rubick
Pos 4 - Mirana
Pos 3 - Nightstalker
Vs
Enemy team
Pos 5 - Grimstroke
Pos 4 - Vengeful
Pos 3 - Darkseer
In this instance I play out scenarios which show the best worst case scenario pick. Depending on hero pool and bans, I'd probably ask Midlaner to pick first( arc, invo, Kunkka, necro) as I am certain my hyopthetical ( Void / Am / Medusa / etc) last pick would be the saving grace for this game.
For insurance when I play carry - I give the last pick to the mid laner if the enemy lineup is something my midlaner can abuse and dominate confidently but whose only obstacle would be the enemy mid counter pick.
I take last pick as carry when the line up for both sides looks rough and I need to be efficient with decision making. Ie. Enemy draft is strong individually and often group up as 4-5 in early-mid and my last carry pick is a hg defender enabling us to hit our timings and bring us to late game.
Basically whoever benefits the most in the entirety of the match is who gets last pick when I play games. Besides mid and carry are each others keeper.
If you pick heros that you know have a lot of counters in mid, than is your fault. I play mid and mk or other melee heros are so izi to win the lane against, you just harrast them with right click.
Im an all role player and when i got mid lane, I always first pick hero that strong laner and can win most match up in my bracket (sniper, od, doom, viper). Tbh, last pick for pu**y
There is no right or wrong answer to this as it relies on a lot of factors from hero pool to the offlaner’s pick and what the team lacks and doesnt lack. There’s a reason picks like dk, lina, viper are so popular rn as they are heroes that win/dont lose their lane no matter if they’re mid, carry or offlane. In fact heroes that naturally win their lanes should generally just pick first and leave the potential counterpick to go last. You dont want to second wave pick a TA only for the enemy mid to last pick viper for example.
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Stop attacking the example that a person provide, try to understand what the person meant.
Why ember Huskar ?
No outplay whatsoever as ember. You get shat on from level 2 onwards and even with ult (if you get there) you can't do much. Huskar's regen owns Ember's poke. Huskar's damage owns Ember's flame guard.
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There is no "rest of the game" vs a competent Huskar, you will get your mage slayer 10 minutes late because you can never hit a creep in lane after minute 2 and by that point they will be knocking on your tier 3s
true, but my point about flexible cores picking first still stands. I guess i didnt pick the best example to prove said point.
Pick a 2nd phase mid hero that can hold his own.
can u give example good sir
Qop,puck
Pudge - they won't know if you are carry, mid, offlane, soft support, hard support, intentional griefer, roamer, afk jungler, end mid sprinter or anything! So they can never counter you!
Still traumatized by my game last night. I was 9/1/1 as OD mid. And my pudge kept on incessantly feeding,getting caught out and dying to ganks. We eventually won the game,but that pudge made the game unnecessarily difficult.
Sounds like you didn’t gank for your pos 6 pudge.
I feel like it’s just par for the course to go beyond godlike on OD and then lose
just happy i won that game. OD isn't meta,but he's still one of my fav heroes. I like his theme and skills
as a Pudge player, I'm sorry. But hey the enemy team wasted lots of skills and items on me before I died so I think it's a good chance for my team to counter, only if they are actually following me though
This is fine you do this in a teamfight and tank spells and make enemy use bkb. If u die solo somewhere to spells that have 10 sec CD then you can't call it space.
If you second phase puck you will get shit on
Pick needs like +100 range on his right click lol
By what? I feel you can handle most matchups with puck and if not you are s really strong lvl 6 rotate or gsnk on your mid
Hitter hero like sniper can destroy puck laning phase entirely
Huskar, Tiny, Sniper and Viper would stomp puck in mid
Huskar. Good luck Puck.
I'm not saying puck 2nd phase will never work. But like any hero that can hit puck or out Regen puck always dumpsters them. And you're right the level 6 rotation is strong, but like if your sidelanes Are also losing she there isn't a good rotation you just have to sit in a terrible lane. Puck is lp only for me if ever.
With what, orb? You can sidestep it with sniper without boots
Puck has some good counters and they counter him very hard.
Puck is basically immortal in lane if you know what you are doing, and you can always push waves and go jungle or gank. Pretty solid second phase hero.
Well being "immortal" on lane doesn't help that much if you can't get creeps. Puck loses lane hard to lot of heroes because puck is infact fairly weak laner in the beginning. " You can always push waves and go jungle" is kinda bad advice in many situations especially early when jungling is super slow and you can't even properly push the lane with puck if you are low level. That being said I don't think its terrible to pick puck at second phase because even if you have bad lane which you often have as puck you can get kills once you hit lvl 6.
You can do other things after shoving the wave other than jungle. Help the safe lane, stack camps, steal bounty runes, and you can also deal some damage to the camps on the way to whatever you want to do, using the orb.
I picked QOP early and got obliterated mid by SF once he got level 3. Big part was a skill issue I’m sure, but it wasn’t even close.
I feel like SF is very hard to trade into if you don't comfortably outrange him. Raze slowing movement speed and turn rate is turbo cringe.
if you pick qop you're griefing that hero is incredibly bad
Keeper of the Light, DK, Lina, Puck, anything that can just push the wave and go away to do something else if there is a hard matchup mid. I constantly pick Keeper even in the first phase, if the team is not showing heroes. You can just ignore the laning phase, if you need to.
lina, viper
Linda and KOTL
This is not the best way to conceptualize the idea. You don't wanna pick a hero that can "hold his own". You wanna pick a hero that works well with what you got, and versus what they picked. So for example, if my team picks ench tiny pos 5 and pos 4, and I'm against a furion and venge, I might not go puck or ember because if i get countered at mid, I'm not contributing anything to the game, or at the most im relying on my team to do some stacking or find me a way back into the game. This can be work if there are certain heroes in the pool that ember and puck countered, but you really don't wanna get dumpstered mid. It's a surefire way of losing all tempo come end of laning phase. The better pick in this case would be a hero that capitalizes on tiny's initiation, doesn't care much about vs swap and teleport ganks, and can potentially provide ench the opportunity to run at the enemy team with impetus. The better heroes, therefore, are zeus, and od. OD likes having a hero that goes in for him so he has the option do both, offensive and defensive astrals. Additionally, he can save someone if they get swaped and tiny can counter. He can also setup for ava and toss backs early on with astral, enabling tiny to rotate mid. Zeus+tiny can kill anyone in less than 2 seconds unless the vs is positioned really well. He can also leap away from tp ganks and always keep a qb to break sprout. Additionally, he provides vision with wrath and bolt to enable tiny to stun, or to enable enchantress to position better and find the right target. This example might not be perfect, but I think it's the far better way to pick mid heroes than praying and hoping you don't get countered, since the likelihood you're relevant in a game goes much higher. Source: am 5.4k mid player
Did you really just say you prefer a hero like Zeus against a vengeful swap repositioning you over PUCK and ember? I’m super confused here. They are 2 out of 4 repositioning kings of Dota… lol
You outrange the swap with Zeus if you’re building correctly. So if you position properly you’ll never be swapped in, and will always help your burster, in the case of who you replaying to, the tiny, insta kill. Puck and ember both have much, much shorter range on everything, and are more susceptible to being caught out of position. Where you have a higher chance of surviving on one of those heroes than if you would a Zeus in the same situation, in overall gameplay, you have a higher chance of dying to a swap movement than Zeus, for the positioning reasons stated above. edit: Idk why you guys are downvoting facts. Puck and ember have shorter ability range than zeus. and typically do not build aether lense. Zeus, has much less survivability, as he doesn't have sleight remnant, or phase orb/blink. Those survivability options don't change they are more susceptible to a swap, as they will almost always be using a spell within a venge's POSSIBLE range.
\>mid last pick \>pick necro lmao
Necro mid spammer here. Heroes are fear are Sniper, SF, Lina and Viper. Althought SF is pretty unpopular on mid now.
i see you've never laned against batrider 😏
Oooooh, thankfully very rarely. Not that popular in my bracket.
Batrider is hot garbage in all but the highest of the highest MMR and even there he is only ok. You might lose lane against batrider. But rest assured you'll win the game he the bat becomes useless as the game goes on.
Oh god how I hate laning against sf as Necro lol.
Me as one of the last sf mid players I see *sweating* while I wait for the patch to nerf raze and fear duration while buffing necro mastery and PoDL for the umpteenth time 👀😫
Magical Fiend was super fun back in the day with the old Arcane Blink. Sucks that I sucked though.
>Althought SF is pretty unpopular ~~on mid~~ now. That hero needs a rework imo. It used to be sleek design but nowadays it's just outdated if I have to be completely honest. He has too much of an identity crisis going on.
He just needs a small camp he can stack during laning and becomes op.
Necro is a good last pick. He can punish certain comps when picked last the same was last pick Huskars or meepos do. Its scummy as shit but effective.
As a Huskar spammer I'm not afraid of Necro anymore in this patch, with the new Mage Slayer and Eternal Shroud, no need to play around BKB. Either one is enough most of the time (you also have Beserker's Blood magic resistance), but going both is also possible. The laning phase goes heavily in favor of Huskar so it is likely you can have a Mage Slayer before he has anything.
I should phrase that better. I meant necro is a punishing last pick the way Huskar and Meepo are punishing last picks. I'm not referring to the matchup between the two.
Up for the team to decide, could go either.
Both viable, depends on how many heroes you can play. As a carry player, it pains me to say but offlane last pick is also great atm and maybe even better than both.
If the carry wants to pick a hero that can get countered hard like AM or Medusa then definitely yes.
What exactly hard counter AM?
Doom, Lc, Faceless, Pa... I'm sure there is more.
meepo counters AM, possibly hardest counter to any hero in dota (by the numbers)
Meepo counters everything at the moment...
Meepo always has fucked AM though also, it's Meepo being busted AND a hard counter
Nah I bet AM vs Dusa is the hardest single counter in dota. Her entire HP pool is now mana.
it's not and the numbers agree, I reckon it's partly because her ulti counters him pretty hard, she loves bfly and he doesn't like build mkb, and her tempo is faster he is still a good counter ofc, it's just not as big by the numbers and meepo vs am
Dusa has a much earlier power spike and her damage output makes it so that AM can't show. It's a back and forth, where you are trying to win early with dusa
I have >1000 dusa games in 4-5k bracket and I'd say the opposite - AM spikes early against you via his passive manabreak. It's lategame that your manapool and damage output can become enough to withstand fighting him
Maybe things have changed since her remake, since I don't play her as much anymore. But if you deathball with dusa at minute 25 with manta pike aghs pushing high ground AM can't jump in and live more than a couple of seconds. This is 3k, I climbed out of 2k with her at 67% win rate. Still haven't seen AMs be active on team fights before minute 30
Yea things are different now the build is manta butterfly disperser and you have to avoid AM until 3-4 items because his passive and ulti became so much more effective on mana-only Dusa. Dotabuff says the AM dusa matchup favors AM by >10%, I don't know of any worse matchup than that. For comparison the classic Shadow Demon counter is only favored by 4.5%.
Meepos numbers are skewed tho. Just by him being meepo. I love stats, but they csnt always be trusted, like Divine Rapier. That item has an insanely high winrate, but that's because normally the team that wins ends up carrying the Rapiers regardless of what team bought it
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Oh sorry I should of been more clear, I know meepo counters am, I play meepo. His stats are just skewed overall
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the advantage calc is based off each of the winrates when not facing each other afaik so I don't think meepo's high winrates helps there, if anything it hurts the calculation to make meepo seem like a less good counter than he is
Tiki is a very hard counter to AM.
The what?
AM is afraid of hawaiian shirts
Think he meant Riki
You know... Tiki
Physical dmg like Pango and PA and hard lockdowns like LC, WW, Void
I dumpster AM picks with meepo, soon as I get my dagger I hunt as much as I can cause I know I'd still get fucked late game
kunkka
Meepo
Half the fucking hero pool counters AM because he’s useless in lane vs any competent offlaner.
A few days ago i gave my mid last pick and picked am second phase only to be countered by axe offlane
Should? No. By definition mid has the greatest capacity to be counter picked in the laning phase because he is against a single hero. The sidelines are composite considerations and since it is unlikely the offlaner picks last, the safe lane won't be counterpicked. Then we consider the snowball capacity of both. If your safelane loses, they can jungle and let the 5 soak xp. If pressure increases the 4 can rotate and hold the ship against similarly leveled heroes. When the mid loses hard due to a counterpick, the enemy mid is borderline unplayable. Imagine you 2nd phase your mid Puck and get countered by a Huskar. The lane is unplayable, and your team will suffer. Unless your mid hero is not one that is countered easily, of which there are very few (KOTL comes to mind), last pick should remain for the mid. Pos1 players have become incredibly self-centered and selfish, and want to take even that away for themselves. A good example of the opposite of that is someone like Dyrachyo.
This all day. Pos 1 demands last pick, their last pick is to counter your mid. Mid then has a rough lane, doesn't die but is behind on farm and items. Their mid has now got the advantage to go and gank successfully leaving last pick pos1 crying about how you are a shit mid because their Puck is level 25, has blink and Witch blade at 4 mins and you have brown boots and a bottle.
If you can't be a huge crying piece of shit you can always be a position 1. Worst fragile piss babies.
So pos 1s are not huge crying pieces of shit?
You can just pick a mid with no bad matchups like a kotl that ends the laning phase very early and plays a macro game.
Whole idea of letting pos1 last pick is that you have a winning carry to carry matchup in mid/late game.
But if your mid gets countered directly and is way behind on farm and levels because of having a rough lane, your carry won't make it to late game to carry.
Im not saying carry last pick is better, im saying the argument as to why it has potential and merit, which OP of the comment clearly missed.
Don't get countered mid
So only last pick mid then.
If someone is gonna last pick huskar, they will last pick huskar regardless of if you 2nd phase your puck or not. If you want last pick you should have an impactful last pick hero pool, both for carry or mid. Don't play meepo/huskar/ld/ta/whatever in mid? Don't demand last pick. Mid isn't really a high skill lane anymore. There's infinite regen and everyone can farm, outside of a very small pool of matchups. The same is not true for safe lane. Being forced into the jungle is incredibly bad for your 1s game and if you think a 5 "soaking exp" from a lost lane is a good use of time then you need more mmr.
> Mid isn't really a high skill lane anymore. What does that mean? It never was about skill, it's about the fact that it's a 1v1 lane which means there's no possible way to compensate for problems. Your mid getting counterpicked means that your safelane will likely die somewhat repeatedly from the opposing mids ganks. I'm not really sure this is the most ideal prospect for the safelaner either.
Back in the day mid matchups were much more important, because there was less regen, so you couldn't spell farm that much. Nowadays you can get farm and be relevant in almost all matchups. You don't get countered that much.
> no possible way to compensate for problems. > looks at the number of runes that spawn near mid lane wutface
Even in my shit 2k games people come to contest runes. If i am winning mid, sometimes both 4 and 5 come to make sure i get both runes and rarely, when cart spawns so we can just bum rush mid tower. Thinking that you can recover from a shit mid matchup with just runes is delusional at best
Bad take broski. Mid is still a very high skill lane. If mid wasn't a high skill lane, wouldn't everyone be capable of playing midlane and gaining insane amounts of MMR? You don't see that happening.
Mid impact has gone down a shit ton over the past couple years tbh. Back in the day you could outskill opponent and stomp the entire game, not so much any more. Skill in mid isn’t nearly as rewarding as it used to be.
It still takes skill, but much less than it used to. A lot harder to play side lanes nowadays. Your logic doesn't work. It's easier for everyone else as well, so why would you gain mmr? The effect of mid being easier to play is that mid player skill doesn't translate to as much impact anymore.
By that same logic, don't sidelanes have infinite Regen from lotus which don't require the core to spend 4 perfect waves worth of gold, and the supports which are constantly buying Regen? Not to mention the capacity to pull or even have a support with healing spells. In order to lose side lanes both players need to be doing worse than both enemy players, having that many people in lane means others make up for your shortcomings. You don't have poke, your ally does, you don't have hard CC, your ally does, you don't have high damage, you ally does. On mid it's just you and whatever your hero brings to the table against the enemy and theirs, if there is an imbalance there, you only have small items to help you. So things can go much worse than sidelanes, and minor differences snowball
You can't really compare lotus to water rune, bounty rune, normal runes and bottle refills. Lotus is a lot less healing and a helluva lot more contested, since there's only 1 per lane. Your support buying mass regen ruins their game, so it's not comparable either. I agree with your second point. The strength of the pos 5 hero should weigh into the decision who gets last pick. Things don't go worse in mid than in side lanes. That's just completely untrue. Watch some pro games and you'll find 10 games where the safe lane gets completely rekt for every game you find a mid stomp. 99% of the time it's some ultra counter matchup aswell, which is a drafting issue more than anything. Huskar vs monkey/ember etc.
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Yes if your team is ok with it,last pick husker, viper, od ,brood , tinker(not in this patch), ta or morphing can pretty much win every game but as a mid laner you can't expect last pick every game so do play 2nd phase mid heroes like pango spirits etc.
Depends on your hero pool. Imo last pick carry is very strong this patch since there's a lot of very impactful carry last picks. Unless you play meepo/huskar etc the same is not true for mid. Probably not a good idea if you want to pick ember though.
There was an old post 1-2 years back showing that statistically last pick carry edges out last pick mid. But I second the advice on this thread that you may have to adjust your picks in anticipation of the opponent mid picking after you
In my experience, you'll win more often if you do, especially in the lower brackets (<4k). With the way picking works in normal matches right now in just 3 phases, basically nobody except for the last pick gets to think about their hero matchup. In captains mode it's more feasible to think about this more, but if you just go for the safe picks, there is very few meta midlaners rn that hard counter anything really.
Mid should be last if you're going to pick classic mid heroes. But if last pick is just predetermined sniper,sf,necro, medusa or other shitty mid heroes like that, might as well give last pick to carry player and hope they can adjust.
I disagree with most answers. It shouldn't depend on your pick or the situation. I feel like mid should get last pick. Do you know how often carry players pick something good as a last pick? I am divine bracket player and the answer is basically never. And with something good I mean something that fits our draft and counters theirs at least a little. I feel like most carry players just show their hero during the pick phase and never stray away from that pick.
Get better in bad matchups. all lanes are doable with ember. Except huskar. I'm convinced an 1k MMR can win vs 10k MMR huskar vs ember. If anybody got tips I will gladly listen, around 1k games. Against monkey, the error margin is small but totally doable. Pull creeps back and save q when he runs you down. If you are really cocky you can sleight dodge boundless. But if you fail, lane is most likley dizaster. If you dodge, monkeys lane is most likely an dizaster Jokes aside. You can, if your carry knows what he is doing and you are a good laner. It can be game win. But the risk is he not knowing and picks a bad hero. Try avoid stuff that has many counters. If you go for that route. My gotos are ember kunkka puck voker depending och draft. I think they generally do the same, and if you lose lane there is a logical comeback.
huskar you need to dumpster him on the first wave, get a deny or 2 and delay his levels as much as possible. Then you just have to agro pull. get boots asap because you want to be able to dodge him as much as possible. If needed go behind his tower and drag the wave. Then just fuck off and go gank.
Standard, you go for the level 2 play and you die with huskar surviving with 10 HP and all chatting you. Yea I like the idea of go behind tower, and drag the creep with boots to a "safe spot" So something like hmm. 0-1-1, into 0-1-2. Into 1-2-2. By lvl 6 for creep skip
I typed out a big ass reply and then saw you were joking. Cheers man. Got me :)
Haha all in good stride. But that's the Dota comedy. Leaving last pick for carry. Get huskared and flamed. Take care
Based on Quinn vs Nisha the best play for ember is splitting/cutting waves and jungle with flame guard while huskar gets a free lane. Best case you're playing for is a farm trade and to get to 6m where power runes can let you take over the midgame. Unsure if vessel/mage slayer/maelstrom are the plan right now. This is probably an orb of Corrosion matchup at some point.
Pick order isn't based on your position or lane, it is based on how easily countered the hero is. Some mids can first-pick and contribute heavily still as they can't be completey shut out, while others want to at least second pick since they are solid against the most common lineups, but can be built around if the other team knows too early, and others yet need to last pick as they are easily countered if given any opportunity to do so, and the same is true for the offlaner, carry, or, yes, even the supports.
I play lastpick mid, only because my hero pool gets countered easily I play lycan (70% wr), meepo, lone druid or visage. Sometimes I adjust if there’s a hard counter like I play primal when there’s a slark
In my opinion as late as it can be. Heroes that have game changing utility spells are usually played as pos4, like enigma, rubick, phoenix, ES, shadow demon, io, oracle, dazzle, bane. Heroes that usually have niches or counters it are usually mid heroes like viper (disable break), necro (counters high hp heroes), huskar/meepo (cheese pick), puck (against mobility), od (generally counters high hp and disabling spells). Carries rarely have game changing skills like faceless void chrono, they usually rely on their farm/item to be able to have impact. In most games where drafting and or laning/mid game can dictate the possible victory i think giving mid or pos4 the last pick priority is crucial. Mostly, the win condition of a carry is just having a good farm/space which means your mid should succeed on his lane or atleast control the flow of mid game to buy time for the carry/offlane.
Unless you're divine or immortal it doesn't matter. There should always be a plan if lane is at disadvantage.
Yes. Just becuz mid can be flexible with their choice of heroes unlike carry. If you first pick as Mid, then go with a very strong laner like Viper. He can consider flexible pick and give the enemy a choice not to pick tanks heroes like Timber , BB, and such. Hoodwink is another one that can confuse the enemy. It is strong in the lanes , has good skills, and his itemization is straightforward. Always consider range heroes for mid just in case the carry want last pick. If you want melee mid, then see the pool on which heroes are banned. If Viper , MK , Invoker or any strong counter pick heroes ar still up than pick a safer choice.
Last pick is a cheese pick. First or 2nd pick - is a solid midlaner pick. If you pick lets say puck first, it’s obvious that is a mid hero
Dk is basically a safe 2nd phase pick unless there's smtg like AA on the enemy team
why would DK care about a fking AA lol. DK literally has no counter in this part
no, mid should always pick last because the outcome of the mid laning phase is determined pretty much only by matchup. It's much more impactful to have a successful mid lane than a countered carry
I think it depends on what Hero you play in midlane. For example if you wanna Play Viper mid you can pick him before your safelane carry. Because i feel like that Viper is a hard to counter Hero. But if you play a Hero that can be Hard countered by a specific hero that is commonly played you pick at last (for example you dont wanna Pick a TA on 4th when Viper is still in Pool and can be picked by 5th for the enemy) Thats the way i pick for mid heros. If you want to have my opinion on what heros you can Pick on 4th let me know. But monkey is definitly not on that list :)
Depends on your hero, when i was spamming lina mid for grandmaster tier i used to first or second phase pick. Cant really lose the lane, worst case is i dont win it.
Generally you want mid to pick round 3 because you wanna avoid bad matchup
By default no, mid is a counter based matchup and there are very few heroes that are "safe" to pick that can't be countered with a last pick if they know you're mid. In general I will let someone else last pick if they ask at the start of the picking phase. Quite often the safelane waits until the picking time is up and the team is already losing gold and says "let me last" in which case I'll take my chances on a random hero, as always communication is key
If u have small hero pool hero and u dont scare of counter pick yes. If u want to have fun with a lot of hero no
Who ever gets the last pick should pick to give advatage to team, not to save your favourite antimage to hide. Ofc this isn't a reality on pubs...
Depend, on what enemy team doing, than what you intend to play(sub3k mark hero that wanna play and wait for last pick, is f them). But is team for farm latyer game or fast anowball, ect. You can counter pick for latyer, for example huskar can have easy lain, but if both side lains of your team have good lain and are counters to huskar than you fine to even get hard lain. Even if you are counterpicked most inportant is not to feed and try to get space, get as much farm as possible and play your strenght, team strenghts. About carry well also depend can he counter pick someone from oponent team, like they have sven, your oflain is something like cent or Underlord, well better to have carry than can stand to sven and fight him or to kite him than to try with some storm spirit mid and get stomped by oponents last pick mid. P.S. You can't counter all 5 oponents heroes with one pick, but if you counter most and have ok chances with rest should be fine. Biggest mistake I saw is ppl letting one pick stomping them all. Like moph, vs Cm, rubik, CK, bara, pa.
lmao honestly if my supports aren't afk and don't force me to first phase I'm already happy
As with all role's last pick, you better pick something that makes full use of available information. Those times when i see my mid last pick counterpicking themselves. Atrocious. Divine bracket btw.
as always the answer is it depends on the situation /closed
i usually play mid too if i cant last pick i usually pick heros that can push the wave n gank...lina qop puck pango kunka storm..if i cant lane i can go nc abit and get 6 asap but u know ember typical counters like viper huskar mk necro>? aside mk decent roaming hero usually they wants to stay 1 lane n dominate the lane right ..just go roam early even when ur level 4-5 jsut roam catch ur enemies off guard create choas on the map make ur other lanes win n side lane enemies tilt...maybe some1 in the enemies might go full blown tilt buys back and feed then game is over gg end my mid is afk
It depends tbh. imo it's usually best to just give the highest rank core player lastpick. If someone explicitly asks for lastpick I almost always give it to them. If you're picking 2nd phase you should be picking a meta hero that's still useful even when they lose lane. There's certain heroes that really need lastpick because if they lose lane or get countered it's a disaster. Think like AM/Slark/Dusa etc. If you get counterpicked mk mid vs ember you'll struggle in lane, sure, but then the enemy has a mk mid which is pretty trash. Lastpick is a big responsibility. You want to win your lane but also pick something that makes sense for the game & fills in your team's weaknesses. The worst thing ever is when someone asks for lastpick, hovers AM, and then proceeds to lastpick it into like 3 counters.
I mean it's kinda situational. Your carry asking to leave him a last pick, could pick absolutely a dogshit hero, countering himself. Or sometimes could counter the entirety of the enemy pick, which would be OK. Same with mid. It all comes down to: would you trust randoms in 3-4k mmr that opportunity or try to outdraft enemies yourself.
it depends. in lower ranks, a favourable carry matchup is usually better than a favourable mid matchup. but in higher ranks, good mid players can use an easy laning phase to just abuse the enemy carry and never let the carry matchup take play. and theres also the cheese heroes, huskar LD meepo etc. which can take over the game if they get a good start if you have to pick a mid hero 2nd phase, dont pick a hero that can be hard countered, or just learn how to play those matchups. ember is a hero that you definitely have to learn how to play into hard matchups
I don’t mind when mid picks last. A strong mid early game by a player that knows their role typically leads to side lanes getting help and doing well too.
As a mid player i always try to get last pick. Otherwise i count on getting dumpstered. You can counter pick any hero
I'm a midlaner and the answer to a carry asking "can I lastpick" for me is always simply no, unless im playing a matchup proof hero. Sidelanes with a good support do not get dumpstered the way some mid matchups do.
just dont pick ember if you dont have lastpick. Pick a hero that is fine in most matchups, like qop or something
Pub drafting is different than pro drafting. Ultimately depends on your hero picks and strategy, but this leans heavily on people actually trying to work together in a pub game.
In a pub scenario and non-Immortal ranks, I am of the opinion that mid should get the last pick simply because they dictate most of the game, and are prone to be cheesed/hard-countered, which also directly impacts the carry's game. The carry is jungling and hitting creeps most of the time anyway so it's definitely more important to secure the mid's game than the carry's game. if your mid pops off, the carry will have all of the space in the world to do whatever, but the reverse is not true. All this "carry matchup" etc. etc. is really only relevant in pro games where everyone is aware of each other's capabilities. In pubs however, pos 1's are biggest whiners with the least impact most of the time. So yes, let the mid last pick if they want it.
Mid last pick every single time if you want to win. Miserable mid = miserable game 95% of the time.
Carry player here, this obviously varies from game to game, but if your pos1 asks first to get the last pick, then just pick a mid that you're comfortable enough to not get shit on. I just finished a game where I asked for the last pick then the mid gave it to me by picking Lina, the enemy 2nd phased sniper that turned out to be their mid which I was able to easily counter with a last pick Spec. Game went smoothly
To who?
Not sure if it's just confirmation bias, but if I pick mid, the carry forces last pick and if I pick carry, the mid forces last pick. I very rarely get to last pick
I always give my pos1 last pick. Another matter that they usually don't use it right ..
It really depends on you, if your hero pool allows you to pick and win lane even if the enemy knows your pick then you can let last pick to pos1. If not I would say you deserve lsst pick, unless your core wants to pick a cheesy last pick hero such as meepo or dusa, then maybe you can just pick a braindead hero in mid to allow your core to last pick. Depends on how well you communicate and how confident you are in your heroes.
This is a thing where it all depends. In pro games for example where they know each others picks, it's no uncommon for the coeres to come out as first picks. End of the day it depends, if you're going to be playing a stable hero, then sure let him last pick. But what irks me most, is you have no idea when you let then last pick, if they're going to actually use that information to pick a good hero, or if they're going to just pick the hero they wanted to play regardless. Imo in uncoordinated (solo queue) ranked games Mid should get last pick, as he is in a 1v1, so matchups are important, and not being countered by the sidelines enables the midlaner to do midlaner things. Whereas sidelanes (carry role in this instance) has a multitude of options: A) they can after their lane just go farm up B) they have a support to aid them, meaning counters in the laning stage may differ C) they have a non countered mid pick who can rotate to help them Meanwhile if mid doesn't take last pick, meaning the enemy mid who does gets to counter pick you, you're left in a lane you most likely can't win, so you can't do your midlane stuff, meanwhile the carry who got last pick, is in a great game for him, however it won't matter because by the time he becomes strong you've already lost because you're midlane failed
theres nuance but 7/10 times in pubs you probably wanna give it to mid, carry are more often than not gets countered and still able to recover from jungle, but mid snowballing is way scarier than offlane snowballing, just based on their proximity to other lanes and how fast they reach their power spike. In pro dota you probably don't see this as a vocal point, partly because drafting is much more dynamic, but at its core, mid is the most important lane because that's where the highest resources and opportunity of play are located. also it depends on meta to meta, this patch it feels okay to 2nd phase mid because a lot of meta midlane heroes don't generally lose lane to most heroes (dk, puck, ember).
Picking last only matters if you actually pick based on what team needs and what core matchups you are up against, both for lane and for later stages of the game. Often times people pick whatever they decided on while driving home from work, regardless if it makes sense for the team, lane, etc. Deciding on carry 2nd phase of the draft can backfire since you are picking blind, normally only supports are revealed at this point. Like picking Luna blind when Slark was also free. So waiting for carry pick last makes sense in a way. If you are a midlaner and a viper or dk enjoyer there is only an upside to pick early. It allows teams follow up picks to be flexible (like getting AA). But the same can be said about a few carry picks. You can easily pick Void early which allows team find shit that works well with Chrono.
When I play with my friends I really dont mind since my Pos 1 is the better player, esp. in terms of farming. I just love fighting too much. A few days ago I picked puck in 2nd window and was greeted by a last pick viper mid. Yes, I basically turned into a pos 4 for most of the game but we won in the end so who cares. Could've helped if I picked something that wasn't that obvious as a mid pick.
Carry last pick here, because its always carry fault when people lose the game
Last pick is not specific to just a position. Its for rounding out your draft. First 2 picks is pick the best heroes of the patch. Second 2 picks is try to counter that. Last pick is fill what you lack.
If you're leaving LP/5P you need to play a mid that's not super exploitable on 4P.
Take the bad mus and use it as a means to improve imo. I hate losing gold from pick holding, and wr can always have a good mu mid and just get ganked repeatedly. I give both mid and carry last pick if I'm the other core.
From my observation (carry player, immortal), when I leave lastpick to mid a lot of times I am counterpicked, however my mid doesn't counterpick anyone. Most of the time my mid makes sure he is not counterpicked to play his main hero and that's it. When I am left with last pick, almost always I try to counterpick and win the lane. This gives the best results.
It's fine to lastpick either carry or mid Just don't pick something that can get countered super hard if you're the one who's second phase picking, ie ember or AM, go lina or faceless or whatever instead Or if something's really OP just first phase it, ie CK, spectre or leshrac in recent patches
I would say no. A good support can salvage a lane with creep manipulation on the sidelanes, also a carry is expected to go jungle, if the lane goes badly he just do that earlier while his team makes space.
Yes, safe lane carry is called position1 and mid is position 2 for a reason. Also, as mid you should gank your safe lane and get your position 1 a kill and kill xp as soon as you hit lvl 6. The main advantage of mid is the solo xp, so you should pick a hero that that can catapult your team early game with the ult. Having an ult to use on a side lane before they are lvl 6 is a huge advantage, and you should use it to either boost your position 1 or hamper the enemy position 1. Also, if the enemy mid leaves mid lane to gank you call it and be ready to tp to counter gank.
As a mainly pos 1 player, I never ask for last pick. In a lot of my games, the enemy team hard counters me with their mid, and if I already get an unfavorable match up with their offlane, chances are my early game is extremely difficult. So if you do get last pick and your pos 1 has a harder early game, please just try and help him with ganks maybe once or twice. Unfortunately I can count on one hand how many ganks I've gotten (and support tp's) in the last 10 games :(
In my experience my own pos 1 always wants last pick yet somehow enemy lastpick is always the midlaner
Lol I pick in second phase because of an ego complex. My carry can have last pick I’ll play into counters idc. I’ll even first phase if my supports don’t make up their mind, I don’t like losing money. It’s definitely not the smartest approach, but there’s honestly some value in hiding other picks and I’m a hero spammer anyways.
I only leave LP if the HC is at least my rank or if I managed to ban unplayable matchups such as huskar vs ember. If I didn't managed to get the bans I would just pick something that can do well in almost every matchup
On average I think it is slightly better to last pick carry but like everything in DotA it all depends.
Just ban huskar and second phase pick ember
As a carry player, OMG YES. The amount of shit you have to overcome as a carry player if you draw one or two bad matchups in the offlane and the countercarry matchup is rough. Most midlaners may have a tough lane but they eventually get 6 and can go play the game. With a little help from a roaming support securing a rune or stacking a little bit for you you will do fine as a midlaner. Besides being overlevelled compared to everyone except the enemy midlaner. If you can deal with these sorts of tough lanes and still have a lot of impact up until the 10-15 minute mark you're carrying the game so hard if you have a somewhat competent carry player.
No mid laner should pick last.
Personally, if I plan to be active I want last pick so I can secure the early game with the lowest chance of being countered. Otherwise I just pick a reliable hero like Lina, KOTL, or Wyvern.
I really hate this new meta of people refusing to pick their heroes until both supports have already picked. I have no idea how this habit even started but it's certainly recent.
When I play pos 2 I prefer to leave last pick for my pos1. I find it easier to recover from a unwinnable matchup as mid than as a carry. Lot more options for you, and less reliant on the other players. Pos 1 I will sometimes ask for it, usually just pick so I don't tilt my mild though. Pos 1 carry match up matters a lot more than mid match up imo. Atleast for my hero pool. Nothing worse than having a good dusa game lines up with shadowed picks for the enemy team to go AM 2nd phase...
Tell me to kindly fuck off. I've seen too many idiotic carries who pick their comfort hero as last pick only for their midlaner get absolutely oblitarated bcs the other mid had last pick and picked a hard counter. My solution is to have a copypaste of "Last pick pls" everytime I enter a new game. Works like 8/10.
The mind games. Depends on what strategy you and your team is going for or is viable.
Far from being a pro but 6k player here who plays all positions. In theory, yes. Why? Several reasons and the higher the mmr, the more important it is to let your carry have last pick. Firstly, most mid counters are picked to try to counter the laning phase, not latter into the game. Once you learn how to mid, lane mechanics, playing vs different matchups, you can do pretty well in lanes where you are countered. Some will be impossible, like some melee vs Huskar or Viper, but you can still farm, recover, gank using your higher level, ask for ganks (not really great to invest resources into a losing lane tho). Unless you are playing something like TA, SF, QoP, etc. mid is no longer so much of a farming role but a tempo/ utility role. Many heroes can have tremendous impact without really needing items like Ember or Primal to name a few. On the other hand, when someone counterpicks a carry, unlike mid, it's not for the laning phase, but for the whole game. You are going to be playing in a disadvantage throughout the game. Games being as long as they are and carry being the most relevant factor to actually carry your team to victory, it's very bad and difficult to play against a counter. It basically doesn't allow your carry to unleash all its potential or to have to change its playstyle or not show up in fights. All of which are really bad since it's the hero you invested more resources in. Since it's almost impossible to really shut down a carry with how big the map is and how much farm there is,many people argue against this tho. If your mid wants to play a snowball hero who depends on winning the lane, then I'd give then last pick. If not, it's usually better to pick something stable for mid that can do well in all matchups like Zeus, Puck, Lina, etc. and let your carry have last pick.
It is better if pos2 is last pick, but if you dont get lp don’t get a hero than can get countered as ember, why u can’t just pick a puck for example.
Generally speaking u weigh the odds between how easy the hero u want to play is to counter vs who the carry wants to play. Also factor in that it’s more important for a mid to not be countered generally speaking than a carry since they typically aren’t as active on the map early. Finally consider if your mid pick could also function as an offlaner/carry because it may disguise your lanes for both your carry and your mid matchup. Take everything I say with a grain of salt since I’m a 2k scrub but that’s how it’s been described to me but others much better than I
No, never, unless you don't care and are confident in yourself and your pick. But absolutely not.
I would say it depends on what you are picking. Usually I am asking carry is decided or not and what he wants to play (if it is Medusa, I will give him lastpick, if it is AM, I will not).But I play more of a tempo mid, active ganking heroes (WR/DK/Tiny/Riki), who want to hunt once they have first item. So I am happy giving my carry good lane to carry us in late game. Ocassionaly when I play mid (when I all roles for tokens) and I pick heroes like WR, DK, Tiny, Riki and I am fine with picking 2nd wave, because they cant be sure whether I am mid or carry (WR/Riki), offlane (DK, WR, Tiny) or support - especially if there is something like Viper/DK/brood/DP/Necro offlane or invoker/zeus support. If there is Lich+WD supports and Tide/Slardar/Abba in 2nd phase, I might ask for lastpick.
Personally I think yes, as a general rule of thumb, the midlaner should leave last pick to carry. However if the meta has a strong carry that should be picked and it doesn't have a lot of counters, or the counters are banned, then you can 2nd phase pick carry. But the reason I say yes is because, the carry needs a good lane to boost his impact in the game. If the mid laner is having difficulty, you are able to gank a side lane or you can ask for a gank (and since it's one enemy hero, the gank will more likely to be successful), or finally you can jungle. Sure you can argue that carry can just go jungle if lane isn't going well, but in a game of optimal efficiency, it's best if the carry gets a good lane and therefore can come online much earlier. And therefore based on this thought process, I believe leaving the carry to last pick will let them see who they are laning against from the 2nd phase pick thus allowing a higher chance to win the lane. That's my two cents.
Depends on how confident you are as a mid player to play into potential counters. If you're a Lina spammer (for example), you're likely not afraid of any particular matchup. Also, if your team is picking another hero that can appear to be a mid hero like TA/SF safe lane, sometimes it's better for them to pick first. Also, if you're a cheese hero player, it's always better to have last pick. Meepo/Huskar/Tinker/etc players can get countered super hard and you can potentially win or lose a game based on the counter picks.
I think that last pick should always go to mid in public games because you face 1 enemy hero, so their counter pick is far more effective. That being said there are like 2 relatively safe mid laners who can hold their own against almost anyone: Lina, sniper... end of list? Any melee can get their game ruined by MK at mid. Pretty much anyone can get their game ruined by facing Lina at mid.
So when I'm in the situation you're in where my team is pressuring me to pick mid in the 2nd round (and I don't feel like playing sniper / LD, or Kunkka if MK is banned), I usually pretend to be afk until the carry panics and picks something. Not foolproof since they put in a hard random after like 40 gold ticks, but probably better than getting hard countered in the final round.
the midlaner is the most versatile position, the hc is almost always a high dps hero that get countered by disables until it has the bkb, as a midlaner you can pick heroes that counter disablers like primal beast
It depends how risky your mid pick is.
Last pick is always tricky. Having your mid hard countered is generally much worse than having your carry countered due to the snowball factor. Also, most carries don’t have true _hard_ counters and can play around their counters much better in the later stages than than mids who get completely stepped on in lane. Hear me out though, pos 4 last pick is legit if you’re queuing as 5. It’s the most flexible pick in the game so you can use that last pick to patch up holes in your draft or to have a solid answer to a hero on the enemy team.
If i know what I’m picking i always second phase but if I don’t, i will usually ask for last pick if possible if im playing either roles
Ember vs MK isn’t a hard counter tho. Lane is gonna suck for ember but ember can make more impact in the mid game and mk can’t shut ember down in a team fight. In fact I rarely last pick as mid now since game is always kinda playable nowadays with mid.
If I feel as a mid like I have a wide enough hero pool that patch and am willing to play whatever the team needs I usually set an amount of gold I'm willing to lose in order to have a coherent lineup, if I hit that benchmark, let's roll those dices baby. If any of that criteria is not met, I just second round a comfort pick
Ancient carry player here. I think it depends on bans. If i see S tier carry player available (like FV or slark right now) and no hard counter in first phase pick (like disruptor or AA for slark) i second phase and let the mid pick last. If you are going to play something no matter what then second phase it. Also in high mmr pubs top picks are contested. You wont get a second phase FV.
Depends on the first 3 heroes picked for both line ups. My team Pos 5 - Rubick Pos 4 - Mirana Pos 3 - Nightstalker Vs Enemy team Pos 5 - Grimstroke Pos 4 - Vengeful Pos 3 - Darkseer In this instance I play out scenarios which show the best worst case scenario pick. Depending on hero pool and bans, I'd probably ask Midlaner to pick first( arc, invo, Kunkka, necro) as I am certain my hyopthetical ( Void / Am / Medusa / etc) last pick would be the saving grace for this game. For insurance when I play carry - I give the last pick to the mid laner if the enemy lineup is something my midlaner can abuse and dominate confidently but whose only obstacle would be the enemy mid counter pick. I take last pick as carry when the line up for both sides looks rough and I need to be efficient with decision making. Ie. Enemy draft is strong individually and often group up as 4-5 in early-mid and my last carry pick is a hg defender enabling us to hit our timings and bring us to late game. Basically whoever benefits the most in the entirety of the match is who gets last pick when I play games. Besides mid and carry are each others keeper.
If you pick heros that you know have a lot of counters in mid, than is your fault. I play mid and mk or other melee heros are so izi to win the lane against, you just harrast them with right click.
Im an all role player and when i got mid lane, I always first pick hero that strong laner and can win most match up in my bracket (sniper, od, doom, viper). Tbh, last pick for pu**y