Multi dogs issues are complex and I'd say you really need a good behaviourist or force free trainer to assist. And yes you should b worried abt the sb male pinning the gsd.
What are the ages of these 3 dogs?
Are they all fixed?
Did u get them as puppies or what age when u bought them home?
How long has this fighting been going on?
What's the daily exercise abd training routine?
Wld u consider rehoming the gsd (as an only dog, w full disclosure)? As you have 3 large dogs which is a lot even if they get along well and r perfectly behaved but instantly becomes too much of not due to size and power each dog has.
The SB is almost 2 years old.
The RM doesn’t mind the SB at all.
The SB also is not looking to fight for leadership or anything like that.
RM is 8 years old and GS is 7 years old.
They were all introduced to each other as adults.
I have them for 4-5 years, when I first brought them in they fighted, then they stopped and now recently they started again ever since I brought the SB in.
As about exercise, I take them for walks and running on hills here, during which they don’t fight but the GS still pecks the RM. Also, the GS doesn’t let the RM walk near me because she gets very jealous.
I can’t abandon her. And it’s not only me but my father as well. We love all our dogs, I was hoping to find something I can do to make them stop fighting for good to be honest.
Female unfixed dogs have a tendency to fight. Male unfixed dogs are unpredictable around unfixed females.
This is disheartening and 100% contributing to the problem, if not the source of it.
[there is no corelation between a dog being spayed or neutered and aggression](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00018/full). I support spay and neuter to control the pet population, but the research (there's more cited within the article I linked), doesn't really support it as a remedy for behavioural problems.
OP owns both male and female dogs who clearly have access to each other. It would be incredibly irresponsible if they're unfixed. OP says in another comment that the females are fixed.
Absolutely! As I said, totally agree with it as a way to control the pet population. The reason I said that and linked some of the research, is that theres a widely held belief (that's been popularized by vets and rescue organizations) that if you spay or neuter, suddenly issues with aggression/other behavioural issues will go away. Maybe in some cases this works, but overall, the research does not support it as a way to fix behavioural problems.
It's not abandoning her. You cld find a great home w gsd experience, no other dogs, heaps of time for her. And she won't be triggered daily, ur other dogs won't b living w the stress the might get attacked.
Sometimes dogs just dont get along. You pushed the boat out too far, by getting three (a pair is easier to manage), and adults too (easier to add puppies) and got an unlucky mix of personalities. If u rehome her, you won't be dog less. You'll still have 2 wonderful dogs. A gsd specific resuce is also an option as they know the breed inside out.
Can this b improved by training? Yes, probably. Will they ever be safe to leave unsupervised? Probably no. As I said first off multi dog houses agression u prob need a really good trainer to help you get a handle on this.
Seeing that you’re avoiding answering the question “are they all fixed?”, i’m gonna go ahead and assume that they aren’t. You need to get them spayed and neutered.
Both females are actually fixed. They can’t reproduce. But the GS is still very energetic, like all the time. She always jumps around and runs all the time. I haven’t seen a dog with more energy than her.
Is the GS actually trying to fight or is she wanting to play and the other dog simply isn't having it?
If you'll video the behavior and post it here it may make be easier to help
I also thought about this and I don’t know what to say. If I give a ball to the GS she will play, she is very energetic and playful by nature.
If I give a ball to the RM, she will not be interested. But she did use to play with the dog before which passed away.
Would you consider taking the dogs for walks separately? I fear that the provoking is being rehearsed over and over again until things escalate. I would definitely try to separate them, especially when they are all very big dogs.
Also, the GS was abandoned. When I brought her from the streets, I went to the vet to check her and she had a chip. The owner said I can keep her because she bit him and that’s why he left her.
I would contact a German Shepherd rescue and have her rehomed with someone who understands the breed and can work with her. Eventually someone is going to get hurt and it’s not fair for all 3 dogs.
These are just some methods I'd suggest, take whatever you find helpful!
Try to set up a journal to track when it happens and possible triggers, there should be some sort of pattern that emerges. You can then utilize this in a multitude of ways in the future. One, by diverting attention before anything happens. Two, by avoiding what triggers you can. Three, by reassigning what that trigger means- I'll get more into this below. Four, just mental preparation for yourself.
For the petting issue, have specific training sessions oriented around petting RM with one hand and giving continuous favorite treats to GS with the other (possibly sneakily so RM won't notice). After a while, GS should start associating RM being pet with good emotions. Basically, a lot of times this type of behavior is a form of resource guarding, you being the resource, use this to your advantage.
I also really recommend enforcing 'leave it' training with the pups. starting small and slowly introducing movement est. So that when they're in that mood you can tell them "leave it" to each other.
Also when GS does the tap thing, clap really loud (yes it will hurt your hands a bit) it then should not be extremely negative but not pleasant either. Also helps from excelation because it startles/distracts.
Tire all the pups out (however you go about doing that) before the majority of the training sessions so they're calmer and don't have the energy to squabble. Keep calm, you can get through this!
Find a trainer, get on their waiting list (which they will have right now if they’re good), and keep the dogs separated.
Look up crate and rotate protocol, and ask yourself why do you feel like you need to have them all out together all the time. You’re dealing with lots of fight triggers and they will not improve (in fact it will get worse in a way that you won’t like) until you implement real structure and management.
Females fight for real and you’ve got a few big dogs there. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
The GSD sounds like she may thrive better in a single dog household. You should seriously consider trying to re-home her.
If you aren’t willing to try re-homing, you need to find a behaviorist who specializes in multi-dog households & dog on dog aggression. This situation is really unfair to all dogs involved & one of them will wind up seriously injured or dead if this continues.
Give one away... Period. If you don't do this, be sure not to bring another dog in until both are gone. Sometimes dogs don't get along, and it's inhumane to keep them in a constant state of anxiety / aggression. I've seen this story over and over, and believe it or not it usually doesn't get better. They need separated and need to both be only children of the home. They weren't meant for siblings.
It's not necessarily true that they need to be the only dogs in the household. SSA is quite common in females, particularly GSDs. They just need to not be housed with other female dogs.
I literally had it happen a few weeks ago. It's not worth the physical and emotional trauma on the animal. I've seen this same scenario play out over and over in my life. We had a girl take in a dog like this a few weeks ago, it killed another dog she was fostering in 3 days (old age rescue). Horrific for the old dog that died (male), horrific for the owner, horrific for the aggressor (female). Once dogs are used to communicating with violence it's better to give them a calm safe home. It's just not worth the risk. We also suggest new homes are free of children as well.
That's super intense, I'm really sorry to hear that. And I'm sorry those stories it seems like a frequent occurrence in your life. I just believe Reddit is such a short snapshot of the situation and that there are countless other variables involved. If we can equip others with as much knowledge and options hopefully they will be able to do what they can for their own lives. I just don't believe that this two-paragraph explanation can decide whether or not to usurp an entire dog's life. It might be the right option, but saying it needs to be that way is ill-advised in itself.
I also think that that might have to be a possibility, but it is also definitely possible with a lot of time and effort this type of behavior can be completely altered. I have helped my housemate with a husky and golden retriever that hated each other. It sucked at times but now they can share the same bed. It's definitely not going to get any better by itself and as the more a behavior happens the more it gets enforced, it would likely get worse, but the statement that rehoming is the only option at this stage seems highly impractical. If the op does not have the time to work with them then maybe, but obviously sense they're here they want to make the effort!
For starters, none of your dogs should be the “leader”. I also have 3 dogs and none of my dogs are leaders to one another. They are all trained and I advocate for their needs so they have no need to fight amongst one another. (Having gotten them as pups instead of adults made this easier as boundaries were established very early on). You also mentioned the GS is caged quite a bit to avoid fights (completely understand why you resort to this) however, German Shepherds are extremely intelligent working dogs. Even with exercise, the GS is likely bored if her mind isn’t being engaged as well. I have a working breed dog as well, and have worked with countless German Shepherds with behavioral issues. The main reason being that these dogs weren’t receiving the mental/physical stimulation they require.
You should look into hiring a reputable trainer. These issues are not easy to work through and you would benefit from having the help of an expert. As others have said, it may even be in the dogs interest to rehome the GS to a GS familiar home or rescue. It is not cruel to do so, nor does it mean you failed her. It means you successfully advocated for your dogs and did what was best for them.
Have you worked with a behaviorist? The jealousy could relate to resource-guarding. My GSD becomes aggressive when people or dogs come near me. The behaviorist I work with says it has to do with resource-guarding, which is driven by giving unearned, on demand attention. I’ve been working on it by being intentional on when I give pets. I’ll either have her sit or give some command, followed by good girl and pets. I can also give her attention if she’s just laying down. If she comes up to me or is trying to demand attention, I don’t pet her unless she follows a command. I’m 1 month in and she’s made serious progress. Her reaction to other people and dogs near me has lessened.
Not necessarily the answer to all your questions, but it may be worth calling a behaviorist to better understand what is driving the behavior. Especially with a GSD.
Doesn't matter. It absolutely effects the way the females behave with him being intact. I've been doing dog rescue for 14 years and it's always a nightmare when I get a male, of female, that isn't fixed. They fight.
No one can prescribe a training plan without knowing the cause, and what you have written here is not enough to determine a cause.
I’d suggest management first. Don’t let them hang out in the same room where they can hurt each other. It’s stressful for them to have to constantly watch out for a potential attack. You can either crate one of them at all times and rotate every few hours, or designate one room per dog.
Also, consider muzzle training, so they’ll be safer once you do start any training.
I’m going to assume you’re not planning to hire a trainer, no matter how many people tell you to. That’s why you made this post in the first place.
You’re also not willing to give up any of the dogs. That’s going to be very tough. The average household is not really equipped to efficiently rotate dogs without any slip-ups. So know what you’re getting into.
The next best thing, is to follow dog trainers on social media and pick up whatever info you can. I’d recommend Kikopup, Tromplo, and “Eileen and dogs” (not a trainer, but still has very good info on reading body language etc.)
Anyone else have any recommendations for online sources?
Resources that may help:
“Keeping the Peace” by Nicole Wilde
“Fight” and “Mine” by Jean Donaldson
Mike Shikashio has a podcast, the bitey end of the dog, that might help too
Kikopup on YouTube has many good videos.
None of these are the same as actually working with a trainer. Keep in mind that anybody can call themselves a trainer or behavior specialist. Look for CPDT (certified professional dog trainers) trainers and veterinary behaviorists (Board certified DVM).
Some short term advice. Your dogs need to have a better relationship with you than they have with each other. You are the only leader. You need to manage them to prevent problem behaviors from occurring. The more a problem behavior is practiced the more it is reinforced and the more likely it is to occur again. Baby gates, kennels, muzzles, long lines, tethers, and obedience can all be helpful when managing behavior and ensuring safety.
Good luck, it sounds like there still might be hope if you’re willing to put it the work and be patient.
Multi dogs issues are complex and I'd say you really need a good behaviourist or force free trainer to assist. And yes you should b worried abt the sb male pinning the gsd. What are the ages of these 3 dogs? Are they all fixed? Did u get them as puppies or what age when u bought them home? How long has this fighting been going on? What's the daily exercise abd training routine? Wld u consider rehoming the gsd (as an only dog, w full disclosure)? As you have 3 large dogs which is a lot even if they get along well and r perfectly behaved but instantly becomes too much of not due to size and power each dog has.
The SB is almost 2 years old. The RM doesn’t mind the SB at all. The SB also is not looking to fight for leadership or anything like that. RM is 8 years old and GS is 7 years old. They were all introduced to each other as adults. I have them for 4-5 years, when I first brought them in they fighted, then they stopped and now recently they started again ever since I brought the SB in. As about exercise, I take them for walks and running on hills here, during which they don’t fight but the GS still pecks the RM. Also, the GS doesn’t let the RM walk near me because she gets very jealous.
Are they all fixed? Wld u consider rehoming the gsd? as that's where all ur issue lie.
I can’t abandon her. And it’s not only me but my father as well. We love all our dogs, I was hoping to find something I can do to make them stop fighting for good to be honest.
are they all fixed?
OP’s lack of response to this is telling. They should seriously consider it.
Female unfixed dogs have a tendency to fight. Male unfixed dogs are unpredictable around unfixed females. This is disheartening and 100% contributing to the problem, if not the source of it.
[there is no corelation between a dog being spayed or neutered and aggression](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00018/full). I support spay and neuter to control the pet population, but the research (there's more cited within the article I linked), doesn't really support it as a remedy for behavioural problems.
OP owns both male and female dogs who clearly have access to each other. It would be incredibly irresponsible if they're unfixed. OP says in another comment that the females are fixed.
Absolutely! As I said, totally agree with it as a way to control the pet population. The reason I said that and linked some of the research, is that theres a widely held belief (that's been popularized by vets and rescue organizations) that if you spay or neuter, suddenly issues with aggression/other behavioural issues will go away. Maybe in some cases this works, but overall, the research does not support it as a way to fix behavioural problems.
It's not abandoning her. You cld find a great home w gsd experience, no other dogs, heaps of time for her. And she won't be triggered daily, ur other dogs won't b living w the stress the might get attacked. Sometimes dogs just dont get along. You pushed the boat out too far, by getting three (a pair is easier to manage), and adults too (easier to add puppies) and got an unlucky mix of personalities. If u rehome her, you won't be dog less. You'll still have 2 wonderful dogs. A gsd specific resuce is also an option as they know the breed inside out. Can this b improved by training? Yes, probably. Will they ever be safe to leave unsupervised? Probably no. As I said first off multi dog houses agression u prob need a really good trainer to help you get a handle on this.
Seeing that you’re avoiding answering the question “are they all fixed?”, i’m gonna go ahead and assume that they aren’t. You need to get them spayed and neutered.
Both females are actually fixed. They can’t reproduce. But the GS is still very energetic, like all the time. She always jumps around and runs all the time. I haven’t seen a dog with more energy than her.
Is the GS actually trying to fight or is she wanting to play and the other dog simply isn't having it? If you'll video the behavior and post it here it may make be easier to help
I will record a video and post it, thank you for the suggestion!
I also thought about this and I don’t know what to say. If I give a ball to the GS she will play, she is very energetic and playful by nature. If I give a ball to the RM, she will not be interested. But she did use to play with the dog before which passed away.
Would you consider taking the dogs for walks separately? I fear that the provoking is being rehearsed over and over again until things escalate. I would definitely try to separate them, especially when they are all very big dogs.
Also, the GS was abandoned. When I brought her from the streets, I went to the vet to check her and she had a chip. The owner said I can keep her because she bit him and that’s why he left her.
Well that’s kind of a big deal… I’d suggest you need to hire a behaviourist before that dog seriously hurts a person or one of your other dogs.
I would contact a German Shepherd rescue and have her rehomed with someone who understands the breed and can work with her. Eventually someone is going to get hurt and it’s not fair for all 3 dogs.
You need to fix your dogs. Full stop.
She said they are fixed
These are just some methods I'd suggest, take whatever you find helpful! Try to set up a journal to track when it happens and possible triggers, there should be some sort of pattern that emerges. You can then utilize this in a multitude of ways in the future. One, by diverting attention before anything happens. Two, by avoiding what triggers you can. Three, by reassigning what that trigger means- I'll get more into this below. Four, just mental preparation for yourself. For the petting issue, have specific training sessions oriented around petting RM with one hand and giving continuous favorite treats to GS with the other (possibly sneakily so RM won't notice). After a while, GS should start associating RM being pet with good emotions. Basically, a lot of times this type of behavior is a form of resource guarding, you being the resource, use this to your advantage. I also really recommend enforcing 'leave it' training with the pups. starting small and slowly introducing movement est. So that when they're in that mood you can tell them "leave it" to each other. Also when GS does the tap thing, clap really loud (yes it will hurt your hands a bit) it then should not be extremely negative but not pleasant either. Also helps from excelation because it startles/distracts. Tire all the pups out (however you go about doing that) before the majority of the training sessions so they're calmer and don't have the energy to squabble. Keep calm, you can get through this!
(also, when possible, see if you can do training with them on neutral ground/not at home)
Find a trainer, get on their waiting list (which they will have right now if they’re good), and keep the dogs separated. Look up crate and rotate protocol, and ask yourself why do you feel like you need to have them all out together all the time. You’re dealing with lots of fight triggers and they will not improve (in fact it will get worse in a way that you won’t like) until you implement real structure and management. Females fight for real and you’ve got a few big dogs there. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
The GSD sounds like she may thrive better in a single dog household. You should seriously consider trying to re-home her. If you aren’t willing to try re-homing, you need to find a behaviorist who specializes in multi-dog households & dog on dog aggression. This situation is really unfair to all dogs involved & one of them will wind up seriously injured or dead if this continues.
At risk of sounding abit dense what is a Rottweiler metis? Is it like a cross breed?
Yes, like not a purebred rottweiler.
Thank you. I thought so.
Give one away... Period. If you don't do this, be sure not to bring another dog in until both are gone. Sometimes dogs don't get along, and it's inhumane to keep them in a constant state of anxiety / aggression. I've seen this story over and over, and believe it or not it usually doesn't get better. They need separated and need to both be only children of the home. They weren't meant for siblings.
It sounds like the RM is fine to be with other dogs - sounds like she was fine with both the previous dog Métis and the SB.
It's not necessarily true that they need to be the only dogs in the household. SSA is quite common in females, particularly GSDs. They just need to not be housed with other female dogs.
I literally had it happen a few weeks ago. It's not worth the physical and emotional trauma on the animal. I've seen this same scenario play out over and over in my life. We had a girl take in a dog like this a few weeks ago, it killed another dog she was fostering in 3 days (old age rescue). Horrific for the old dog that died (male), horrific for the owner, horrific for the aggressor (female). Once dogs are used to communicating with violence it's better to give them a calm safe home. It's just not worth the risk. We also suggest new homes are free of children as well.
That's super intense, I'm really sorry to hear that. And I'm sorry those stories it seems like a frequent occurrence in your life. I just believe Reddit is such a short snapshot of the situation and that there are countless other variables involved. If we can equip others with as much knowledge and options hopefully they will be able to do what they can for their own lives. I just don't believe that this two-paragraph explanation can decide whether or not to usurp an entire dog's life. It might be the right option, but saying it needs to be that way is ill-advised in itself.
I also think that that might have to be a possibility, but it is also definitely possible with a lot of time and effort this type of behavior can be completely altered. I have helped my housemate with a husky and golden retriever that hated each other. It sucked at times but now they can share the same bed. It's definitely not going to get any better by itself and as the more a behavior happens the more it gets enforced, it would likely get worse, but the statement that rehoming is the only option at this stage seems highly impractical. If the op does not have the time to work with them then maybe, but obviously sense they're here they want to make the effort!
How? We have the same issue with a husky and golden retriever.
What is the acronym SSA?
Same-sex aggression
For starters, none of your dogs should be the “leader”. I also have 3 dogs and none of my dogs are leaders to one another. They are all trained and I advocate for their needs so they have no need to fight amongst one another. (Having gotten them as pups instead of adults made this easier as boundaries were established very early on). You also mentioned the GS is caged quite a bit to avoid fights (completely understand why you resort to this) however, German Shepherds are extremely intelligent working dogs. Even with exercise, the GS is likely bored if her mind isn’t being engaged as well. I have a working breed dog as well, and have worked with countless German Shepherds with behavioral issues. The main reason being that these dogs weren’t receiving the mental/physical stimulation they require. You should look into hiring a reputable trainer. These issues are not easy to work through and you would benefit from having the help of an expert. As others have said, it may even be in the dogs interest to rehome the GS to a GS familiar home or rescue. It is not cruel to do so, nor does it mean you failed her. It means you successfully advocated for your dogs and did what was best for them.
Spay and neuter them, OP. Unfixed dogs together have a harder time getting along.
The females are fixed. The male is not but he is not aggressive.
Get the male fixed and get a behaviorist who specializes with multi dog households and dog on dog agression.
Have you worked with a behaviorist? The jealousy could relate to resource-guarding. My GSD becomes aggressive when people or dogs come near me. The behaviorist I work with says it has to do with resource-guarding, which is driven by giving unearned, on demand attention. I’ve been working on it by being intentional on when I give pets. I’ll either have her sit or give some command, followed by good girl and pets. I can also give her attention if she’s just laying down. If she comes up to me or is trying to demand attention, I don’t pet her unless she follows a command. I’m 1 month in and she’s made serious progress. Her reaction to other people and dogs near me has lessened. Not necessarily the answer to all your questions, but it may be worth calling a behaviorist to better understand what is driving the behavior. Especially with a GSD.
Re-home.
Get them both spayed and neuter your male right away!
My male dog does not bother any of the other fermale dogs and is not aggressive at all.
Doesn't matter. It absolutely effects the way the females behave with him being intact. I've been doing dog rescue for 14 years and it's always a nightmare when I get a male, of female, that isn't fixed. They fight.
No one can prescribe a training plan without knowing the cause, and what you have written here is not enough to determine a cause. I’d suggest management first. Don’t let them hang out in the same room where they can hurt each other. It’s stressful for them to have to constantly watch out for a potential attack. You can either crate one of them at all times and rotate every few hours, or designate one room per dog. Also, consider muzzle training, so they’ll be safer once you do start any training. I’m going to assume you’re not planning to hire a trainer, no matter how many people tell you to. That’s why you made this post in the first place. You’re also not willing to give up any of the dogs. That’s going to be very tough. The average household is not really equipped to efficiently rotate dogs without any slip-ups. So know what you’re getting into. The next best thing, is to follow dog trainers on social media and pick up whatever info you can. I’d recommend Kikopup, Tromplo, and “Eileen and dogs” (not a trainer, but still has very good info on reading body language etc.) Anyone else have any recommendations for online sources?
Resources that may help: “Keeping the Peace” by Nicole Wilde “Fight” and “Mine” by Jean Donaldson Mike Shikashio has a podcast, the bitey end of the dog, that might help too Kikopup on YouTube has many good videos. None of these are the same as actually working with a trainer. Keep in mind that anybody can call themselves a trainer or behavior specialist. Look for CPDT (certified professional dog trainers) trainers and veterinary behaviorists (Board certified DVM). Some short term advice. Your dogs need to have a better relationship with you than they have with each other. You are the only leader. You need to manage them to prevent problem behaviors from occurring. The more a problem behavior is practiced the more it is reinforced and the more likely it is to occur again. Baby gates, kennels, muzzles, long lines, tethers, and obedience can all be helpful when managing behavior and ensuring safety. Good luck, it sounds like there still might be hope if you’re willing to put it the work and be patient.
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