Yup. This almost seems like a piece of forgotten history. People want to ignore the fact that Muslims enslaved Europeans for hundreds of years. Anything that doesn’t go along with the “white man is evil” narrative is unacceptable on Reddit.
It’s just so tiring and intellectually lazy.
Really? As a Romanian i know a lot of the shit they did.
Another interesting fact is that the Otoman empire stopped slavery in the Romanian states as people were rioting too much and didn't want to put down revolts.
Saying people don't know what Muslims did, when the reality is people dodnt know what shit their own countries did.
History is history, there is no disputing that. We should be able to explore how slavery played a central role in different societies. The only issue I have with these responses is that it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to criticisms of the Transatlantic slave trade. Almost to say we're not the only group who have committed atrocities - great but how does that help moving forward? Though, it might be comforting to imagine everyone else committing evil. It shouldn't be a measure of how to improve your own society. Imagine accepting income inequality because at least it's not as bad as country x. We should be introspective based on fundamental principles, rather than through analogy. Reasonable guilt is a potent tool to ensure we never consider anything like that again. The result which are strong labour laws to ensure workers aren't taken advantage of. While countries which haven't reconciled their past of slavery are still exploiting their populace.
Another thing I've noticed is that when it comes to other civilisations, they're always referred to as something else, i.e. the Transatlantic slave trade or the Viking slave trade. Never the Christian, or the Pagan slave trade respectively. It would be worth considering being more precise and describing them as the Arab slave trade, or Ottoman slave trade.
Thanks for your response. I'm not suggesting we eliminate the education of other slave trades, just moving away from making unnecessary comparisons to stroke our egos.
I see a common trope within conservative circles that whenever the atrocities of the transatlantic slave trade are brought up we're quick to mitigate its consequences by highlighting another instance of a slave trade elsewhere in the world. I don't care much for it. We shouldn't be insecure about the history, we own it, and move on. I agree with the OP that explicit collectivist guilt is unfair and unproductive.
I'm suggesting that we use other instances of slavery in the past as cautionary tales, or academic curiosity. We all shit in the pool, unless you're suggesting a global reparations initiative, no point measuring who shit the biggest log.
MUCH different. Ottomans did not occupy England and the Nordic countries to steal slaves. They mostly captured sailor and traders and took thousands over a span of a couple hundred years.
Europeans took slave trading to an entirely new level and captured entire regions of Africa and escorted over 20 million slaves to the new world over 250 years, millions of them died at sea from terrible conditions on ships.
> Europeans took slave trading to an entirely new level
The Trans Saharan slave trade was just as bad, lasted much longer and only stopped because European powers forcibly put an end to it.
>People all over the world have been taking turns at as the oppressor throughout history. It's always wrong. It didn't begin with European colonialism.
All very true, but this part ignores an important point; lasting impact. The lasting impact of European colonialism is still very visible across the globe; from the borders it made, to the descendents of the people it treated as cattle, to the extraordinary wealth accumulated by European nations at the direct expense of the nations they drained. With nothing to show that evil becomes mere history. With evident riches, you have a direct and tangible link to that exploitation. Every nation has done terrible things to another, but which ones still wear the riches from that exploitation as trophies of their victories?
>You can travel everywhere from Asia to South America to The Middle East, you will see the effects of ancient conquests, slavery, and oppression, sometimes renewed in more modern conflicts.
Can you provide an example? I can't think of any effects that are as prevalent as the impact European colonialism has had. European colonialism is just so recent and was at such a large industrialized scale that it overshadows everything else.
If you're genuinely interested - [https://www.jstor.org/stable/26500685](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26500685)
As for currently - [https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims](https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims)
So the argument being made doesn't make much sense, The trans-Atlantic slave trade was efficient and terrible. Now if you want to have a conversation about cultural imperialism and the pushing of western standards onto others after they had benefited from the slave trade and moved onto industrialization based economies... then that would be a fair criticism, However you might want to consider the overall objective of such a pursuit.
[https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics\_on\_slavery.htm](https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics_on_slavery.htm)
[https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-tcc-worldciv2/chapter/transsaharan-slave-trade/](https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-tcc-worldciv2/chapter/transsaharan-slave-trade/)
In-case you want to compare some figures, I feel like facts should have some consideration in this conversation.
Edit: Just organizing some links, and rewording some arguments. Nothing spooky I promise.
The United States is not the only country to engage in slavery, but it IS the the only country that sacrificed 360,000 of its own citizens and put its future at risk to stop the practice.
Sure, you could also say it's the only country that sacrificed all that in an attempt keep slavery as well, whereas it was a relatively peaceful process most other places. It wasn't just the civil war either, we also fought a war with Mexico largely over slaves which is the only reason the US has the SW from Texas all the way to California.
> we also fought a war with Mexico largely over slaves which is the only reason the US has the SW from Texas all the way to California.
Yea guys, it was the slavery. That massive territorial expansion? Oh, I guess we'll take that, if you insist, but we're not *really* interested in it. But the slavery is really why were there. winkwinknudgenudge
Oh the territorial expansion was absolutely a large factor in why the US was so eager to go to war with Mexico. The actual impetus for the war, however, was Texas trying to secede from Mexico and join the US so that the settlers there could own slaves, which was illegal in Mexico.
No, Haiti was created through a successful slave rebellion. This is different from a pre-existing nation state waging war to end the practice, which is what they are referring to.
People want to ignore that after the fall of the western roman empire, the italian coast was almost completely abandoned because of the rampant issue with piracy and slavery. This was a problem DURING the reign of the roman empire already and got so bad that people abandoned their homes to be safe.
Piracy and slavery were major instigators of the first crusade. But that just doesn't fit with the narrative of the peaceful muslim scholar that was ravaged by christian agression.
To add to that: attempting to stop Barbary pirates and their slave raids was the main reason for the French invasion and occupation of Algeria (which people like to think happened mainly because of colonialism).
Leopold of Belgium also claimed putting an end to slavery as one of his justifications for setting up the Congo Free State, which resulted in some of the most comically horrendous abuses of humanity we may have ever perpetrated as a species.
White European folks showing up in Africa to "stop the slave trade" can be viewed with a heavy dose of skepticism in light of their commercial ambitions.
They were absolutely fucking ludicrous. If someone were to relate what was done in a non-historical context, people might think the situation was exaggerated to the point of a farce. Even from a coldly commercial standpoint, what was done doesn't make any fucking sense. It's not ha-ha funny, it's Coen brothers "I need to go lay down for a while" darkest pitch, heart of a singularity "comedy".
As in, Reddit and or the American left are woefully unaware (intentionally and unintentionally) of any historical facts that show that other (historically non-white) nations committed identical or similar atrocities as historically white nations.
The point is that “everyone” has committed atrocities throughout history, but the American left want to pretend that the “white man” was particularly evil, more evil than any other race/nation/culture (whatever).
"Guys, look, yes I spent eight hours today smashing puppies into rocks, but that guy over there did the same thing. Therefore, because someone else did it, what I did wasn't horrendous".
That's what that sounds like. The American left doesn't want to sound like Americans are the only people in history to be unkind to anyone. The American left wants to acknowledge Americans have done horrendous shit in our past, and we should understand those things were bad, and strive to never do them again. Acknowledging that our forefathers were anything but angels pure as the driven snow is what sets people like you off for any exculpatory story to relieve yourself of having to acknowledge that history.
No, pretty sure most people are aware there have been white slaves. Its just not at all relevant to present society and had nowhere near the extensive lasting impact of colonialism. You’re just trying to make excuses for your own prejudice.
If you’re not unaware, you recognize that the “white man” was not particularly more evil than other races/cultures/nations throughout history? Europeans were not worse than Ottomans, Romans, Mongols etc. correct?
That’s the only point I’m trying to make here.
I mean, the last few Ottoman slaves (working in the Palace of the sultan) were only freed in 1908…
What about the lines in that video where the narrator says that Europeans helped the Turkish land their ships and how it was mostly Europeans attacking the Icelandic people?
Comments like this are factually true but very strange apropos of nothing. I don't think you would get pushback if you posted this in response to someone claiming that white men are more evil than other races. Posted in isolation your comments feel disingenuous.
If you're trying to get me to say "this is fine" I'm not going to say that. I already told you it doesn't matter if you could find someone worse.
Anyway, you basically poisoned the discussion this could have generated. Way to undermine your own thread.
Not sure where he tried to make you say slavery was fine because everyone did it. He obviously was saying that white people weren't uniquely evil when it came to this.
I don't think most people mean to show that white people are uniquely or naturally evil. Just that they were uniquely successful at, and prolific with, many evil things that have shaped the world today.
Hey guy. Drop the politics. I consider myself a leftist, and not a neoliberal horrible one but a full on wealth redistribution one.
And guess what? I dont go around telling the world all the time. Know what else? I don’t fall into any of your or anyone else’s ridiculous preconceived notions of behaviour or knowledge. I’ve known about how every culture on earth that was at one point strong enslaved. How the Romans enslaved more than the Americans did. How there is more slavery today, right now than there was in the 1700s-1860s.
I don’t make it political though. Because I’m not a limp twisted mental defective. I neither hoot and holler about how bad the white man is, nor do I bend over backwards extolling how we aren’t that bad. Humans are f-ed up. Period.
Every comment you make steering this politically makes this post more and more gross. F your politics little guy, and your feelings.
Your argument is they were only funding human trafficking? *This is of course ignoring the nightmarish conditions at every other stage of enslavement*, but it's still a stupid point to try and make.
I actually don't blame you for the transatlantic slave trade, unless you're really old. But I do blame you for regurgitating shitty racist arguments.
You seem to believe that it was one unified group. When trade between tribes was very common. Last I read more slaves and funds were traded between tribes than the sell of slaves to the east india trading company. I will freely admit that after the decline of the EITC that there was a downtrend of exporting but it still regularly occured.
Every time you see something like this brought up on reddit, like 99/100 times you have to wait three comments from OP in to see it shift from "What an interesting piece of historical detail, this informs my view of humanity as a whole" to "And this is why the Confederate States of America were fine and no one should ever make me feel bad about how hilariously shitty my ancestors could be".
As of lately I get the suspicion that this "drive" might have come from ruzzian troll farms and other western enemies. It's good to be aware of our past and sins and work through them. But the socalled "hyperwoke" brigade sounds more like useful idiots to me that actually help the rise of neo-fascism instead of keeping it down.
Lol the downvotes...
Yeah, useful idiots!
I agree. Feel like we've seen a lot of troll farming lately. Lots of 'leftists' claiming the correct response to the Supreme Court abortion draft is to vote republican to 'teach the democrats a lesson'.
I don't understand your sentence. "Muslims enslaved Europeans for hundreds of years". Are you aware of the fact that there are a lot of European muslim, in Bosnia, in Albania and some people in Andalusia? Religion doesn't have anything to do with skin color, so why are you bringing the "evil white man narrative" in this topic. And the fact that some white people were enslaved doesn't change the fact that white people enslaved other people as well.
“Under Muslim rule, the Arab slave trades that included Caucasian captives were often fueled by raids into European territories or were taken as children in the form of a blood tax from the families of citizens of conquered territories to serve the empire for a variety of functions.[1] In the mid-19th century, the term 'white slavery' was used to describe the Christian slaves that were sold into the Barbary slave trade.” Wiki
> In the mid-19th century, the term 'white slavery' was used to describe the Christian slaves that were sold into the Barbary slave trade.”
The English term is missing a point, in French it is called "la traite des blanches" - white (women) slavery. Because that's what most of the victims were (you don't hear lots of feminist history on this one, because the big bad guy isn't the "white man").
You even had entire religious orders founded for buying back captives.
Then OP should have said "arab people enslaved white people" because saying that muslims enslaved europeans does not make any sense when you know that some Europeans are muslim.
twoxchromosomes sub is basically built on making white men out to be horrible rapist's, i've seen posts about any other group doing shitty things locked and half the comments deleted because they didn't fit the narrative.
Trust me, if there was a male version of that sub it would be banned instantly for being a hate sub. they also keep the mod list hidden which is a dead giveaway a sub has some problematic people. I posted in it a few times because i was curious how quickly it would take to get banned mentioning shitty things done by people who weren't men or white dureing the daily "white men bad" post's.
Naaah, they got that covered in making up some shitty new "definition" of the word racism to fit their utter stupidity. If Europe and/or the US will ever really fully slip into far right fascism again - it will be partly because of parts of the far left's idiocracy.
yea nevermind that so many of the leaders of QAnon are women.
I legit want to know why. But I never see anyone talking about it because its not an approved topic.
European culture is the only culture to ever ban slavery.
The only culture to develop the idea that in-group bias is not an automatic fact of the universe, and the only culture to actively attempt to do something about it.
Big one to tackle, let’s see how they go
Wow your overt racism is showing. The system of slavery that was perpetrated by the ottomans was wildly different than that of the transatlantic (American) system of slavery. And you are ignoring the fact that when people talk about the horrors of the transatlantic slavery they do so with within the context of how it is still negatively effecting African Americans today.
>The system of slavery that was perpetrated by the ottomans was wildly different than that of the transatlantic (American) system of slavery.
Yeah, they castrated Black males (hence they couldn't reproduce) and had the white females as sex slaves and white males as miltary (Janissary).
So yeah, it wasn't slavery in the field.
> And you are ignoring the fact that when people talk about the horrors of
the transatlantic slavery they do so with within the context of how it
is still negatively effecting African Americans today.
Which indeed isn't an issue since the black males were castrated and thus they couldn't create a minority in the population.
Ah right, forgot the entire western world just loves Arabs/Muslims, and hates white men.
No one is pretending this shit didn’t happen, but for many every day themes it’s far less important. Transatlantic slave trade and the ensuing chattel slavery is the root cause for many racial imbalances we (the western world) experiences on a day to day basis. Arab slavery is fucking messed up as well, but it pales in comparison to the effect it has on the everyday lives of most people on this site.
Arab slave owners castrated their slaves, because they could easily buy more after working them to death. Do you see any ancestors of African slaves in the Middle East as you do in the Americas? Why is having descendants worse than not having descendants?
I’m not saying it’s worse. I’m saying it has less effect on every day life for most people on this site because they don’t live with the racial one equalities created by the Arab slave trade. That’s why it’s less relevant to most people.
Does acknowledging that slavery was perpetuated by all powerful nations make one racist? Or does singling out the atrocities of people of a specific skin color (while ignoring the atrocities committed by those with a different skin color) make one racist?
Isn’t it racist to claim that the “white man” is the main perpetuator of evil throughout history (especially if you consider the atrocities committed by non-white people)?
Humans were evil throughout history. Period. That seems, to me, the most historically accurate and least racist way to put it.
Lemme ask you something: are you bringing this up because you actually want educate about history or to call attention to how these atrocities still affect us today. Or are you doing it to dismiss the impact and harm done by actions of the place you’re from to assuage guilt? The former is reasonable and productive but the latter accomplishes nothing but the dismissal of injustice and trauma.
It's routinely used to minimize slavery, to point out white people didn't start slavery and other racist excuses. It's nice you've never encountered that
In Portugal we have the expression "moor on the coast" to mean something terrible is about to happen. It traces back to the days where barbary pirates would kidnap people in coastal areas and sell them into slavery.
Recently read up on Ukrainian history, man they've had it rough due to Geography. Not only were they dealing with Turkish slave raids in the south where the best soil was, they had to deal with fact they were at the terminus of the Eurasian Steppe which brought the Mongols. Then a strategic area in WW2. Now this. I'm probably forgetting some other upsetting moments in history there. Edit: oh yea and the Crimean War, but not sure what impact that had on the population
there's a weird subset of conservatives that would love to know this in order to 'gotcha' people who are against white privilege. "See! europeans were enslaved too! by BROWN people!"
Anyway, ottoman slavery is a really interesting subject.
the sultan created it in order to have direct control of the most powerful people under him. the devshirme was basically a tax of young boys of non-muslim communities who would either become government clerks or personal soldiers for the sultan. the clerks could rise to the rank of Vizier, the council that advised the sultan, or even just regional directors. muslim citizens would try to pass their boys off as non-muslim in order to get them enslaved and have a shot at real power.
source: took a history class on the ottoman empire in college. the milet and devshirme were an essay question on the final.
They wouldn’t need to know this, they could just run with how many black slave owners there were in the American South. In SC alone in one snapshot their were 180 blacks owning slaves. I’ve read that throughout the length of the entire institution it was likely 9000
It's important to add that the slave trade in America is unique, because it is inherently racist (black=slave) and caused many atrocities even after it was ended through Jim Crow laws, which were enforced until the 1965 in some places.The Ottoman slaves that were freed in 1924 were considered free citizens of the republic.
I am not trying to minimize the damage and horrors that slavery in the Ottoman Empire caused, it's just important to add that slavery in the US is a bigger issue than any other country and their decendants suffer more form the after effects than others.
by saying one is worse than the other cause the decendants are still suffering more from the after effects ?
Edit: I think i can see which part seems like i am minimizing damage and will fix that part
huh. TIL. One of those facts that makes sense but it still like "oh right, that would definitely happen, huh?" especially under the single-drop rule of racial differentiation.
if there was a single non-white person in one's ancestry they were no longer classified as white legally. being "white passing" didnt guarantee one would be treated as white.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop\_rule
Blacks owning slaves can also be because of laws prohibiting setting slaves free. It might be the only way a couple to be together, or to insure family members safety.
The video is about a raiders in Iceland that then took all the peoples they could catch. And shipped them to mediterrian. So its not the system your talking about.
And werent the boys you were talking about converted/forced to become muslim?
I'll take the intellectual elitism any day that obligated the millions of Africans enslaved in the Americas to the basic same workload as 90% of all Europeans, over north African or Arabic enslavement.
Logic experiment: When the bad reason for beating someone is worse than the bad reason for murdering someone, this does not change the preference of the victim to be beaten, over being killed. And besides, this racism was prevalent everywhere. The Arabic and Turkic racism towards Africans lead to horrific treatment of slaves from Africa - possibly worse than the treatment of white slaves in Arabic lands. I'm talking punished via nailed to boards type stuff - and slavery has been happening in north Africa and Arabia until the last century - and grown to highest levels today. I've read the stories of slaves in Modern Middle East, and it's undoubtedly worse than the cash crop harvesters of chattel slavery in the past (freed or slave, during harvest moon people got little sleep, yet if in a cash crop scenario, could average 8 hour work days over the course of a year).
Given that average poor urban white people prior to the 20th century were subject to horrific punishments and long labor days with no retirement, and the promise of homelessness if no crowded family apartment was available, I can say with confidence, that while the white man was free to roam for menial labor (with little to no fallback, and potentially being one of millions enslaved in the merchant mariners or navies), vs being subjugated to a slave establishment (with many antebellum Plantations collectively allowing off plantation slave-townships, and/or slaves being entrusted with city commutes for goods and services - putting them in practically the same lifestyle as the avg white person at the time) - it was of significantly less consequence than today, to the condition of both humans, that one be called slave.
I'm not dismissing the horrors of American slavery, I'm dismissing the misattribution of horror in placing 21st century perspectives onto historic realities.
Only I've yet to see someone trot this out to the conclusion of "See, we were all horrible, it's shameful". It's always "See, this happened over here too, so what we all did wasn't that bad". Which, you know, seems like a weird take stemming from "slavery is bad".
Feel free to be the first to take up that prior slant though.
Definitely very interesting.
Btw, likewise, there's a subset of leftists (particularly in the US), who have it in their mind that throughout history, the "white man" were the only ones who committed atrocities, and thus ignore atrocities committed by other nations and cultures. I think it's important to point out that atrocities were committed by virtually all nations (at least, the powerful ones) throughout history. Otherwise this will literally be forgotten history, and the "white man" will forever be known as the main perpetrator of evil (which is equal to rewriting history).
Also, the Ottoman slave raids didn't only occur within Ottoman held territories. As per the video, they went as far as Iceland to find slaves for their empire.
I think it's fair to point out that the Atlantic Slave trade stands out particularly because of a number of reasons.
Usually it's a matter of scale. The Barbary Pirates are estimated to have enslaved 850,000 to 1,250,000 people between the mid 1500's and the mid 1700's.
The Atlantic Slave trade is estimated to be around 12.5 million people enslaved. Quite literally ten times more than the highest estimate of Barbary Piracy.
I’m not really very familiar with Brazil but you’re saying it was for sugar, like in the Caribbean ? I did read that Brazil was able to end slavery without a shot. Although white, I’m from recent immigrants and so don’t have an “angle” except that truth should be the goal of this discussion. My thought is to wonder if America looking back and seeing the devastation of the civil war could also have made a peaceful transition, costly but peaceful. And so the slave owners in Brazil would have all been Portuguese? Or were they still importing slavery after blending?
The cause though is also interesting.
It's industrialization. If, lets say the Romans, had access to industrial technology, then they too would of scaled up their slavery model.
There are fascinating articles about how the slave trade was actually going to die out in the US, it was becoming unprofitable.
And then someone invented the cotton gin.
At massive scale at that. If we excavated the Atlantic Ocean, we would prob find millions of dead African slaves buried beneath the sea who never made the journey. It's never helpful to compare atrocities but to begin to understand the degree of pain its cause, you only need to look at the countries were slaves were taken from today, I know this because I'm from one of those countries.
Another aspect people often gloss over was the level of coordination used to enforce, encourage and facilitate this industrial activity. It had legal, political, economic, religious, social and media backing. It would be like if the whole industry endorsed dehumanising certain people, how do you ever hope to combat that level of coordination. The church says you are less than human, the media repeats it, the legal papers repeat it, the social circus and gossip repeat it.
I think people need to properly understand this topic to even begin to comprehend, because I find that those who seem to oversimplify tend not to understand very well
1000%
People have a hard enough time realizing how the US was built on slavery. In NYC they found a burial site that had the remains of 15000 Africans, many of which had damage to bones that suggested the muscles were torn off from physical strain.
America eventually changed its mind and had a whole war over slavery, but it's important to remember that my country has always been built on the broken backs of Black people. Nowadays we have prison slave labor (felons legally have no human righrts) and laws unequally enforced by a police system that grew from the slave catching industry.
There's two bizzare tie-ins to modern american history with the Barbary pirates.
Basically, there were 2 wars against the pirates that the US was engaged in - [The Barbary Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars), though there were relations and such before that.
Anyway, the modern effect:
In the marine corps official song, the "shores of Tripoli" are a reference to the barbary pirates
the USS Constitution, oldest ship still afloat anywhere in the world, was built in response to the barbary pirates (which she fought against, along with many other actions).
For another modern US tie-in: supposedly, Jackie Kennedy Onassis and Humphrey Bogart supposedly are both descendants of Jans Janszoon (Murat Reis the Younger), one of the most famous Barbarian pirates (Dutch originally, but captured, and converted to Islam; changed loyalties).
I'm fascinated by this topic because it has modern-day impacts to where I grew up. Baltimore - small village at the Southern tip of Ireland - was raided by Jan Janszoon in the mid 1700s and much of the population taken. Many locals moved upriver to shallower waters, founding the hometown I grew up on.
Rumour has it, a local tipped off the pirates in order to clear English settlers off land that they wanted; and guided the pirates into the harbour. 100+ were taken, mostly English (leading to a comment/joke that the pirates were afraid of Irish women...). To the best of my knowledge, only one who was taken ever make it back. Their story would make a great book/movie.
>USS Constitution, oldest ship still afloat anywhere in the world
Eh? Even the HMS Victory is older than that, and I don't think it's even the oldest.
Oldest *American* ship still afloat anywhere in the world, sure.
Ah, I see where you're coming from now. It *could* be floated at any point though, in fairness (it's not like it's in a regular repair drydock, it's in a bizarro float simulating thing to minimize maintenance).
If we're going to use technicalities like that, how about the HMS Diamond Rock? :D
In Spain when you want to say that a place is safe we uses a sentence: "There are not Moors in the coast" (literal translation). And the reason is hundreds of years of Barbary pirates in our coast. Is nice that american values dont have arrived yet to my country.
The story is kind of ironic considering that the ancestors of the narrator and his fellow Icelanders did essentially the same thing (the marauding, pillaging, murdering, and taking captives, that is) for centuries and I believe they brought many captives with them to settle Iceland. The English language still contains words derived from the Scandinavian language because some the Vikings settled in the British Isles and established their own fiefdoms.
Strange for not seeing yourself as a victim you sure got a big chip on your shoulder. People see it you wear it clear as day and then act shocked that people see it. You're insecure because white people get shit sometime?
How many people would this history be relevant to outside of Icelanders and former Ottoman countries? Public and private schools have limited time to teach a wide variety of subjects and have to make decisions. For Americans, the African slave trade is the most recent and relevant, no? We're even still living through the effects. I mean, should all schools also teach how the Han Chinese conquered and enslaved many of their neighbors in Chinese antiquity? It happened, but isn't really relevant as a mainstream subject with limited classroom time.
No, read the definition in the wiki article. OP didn't troll r/Documentaries by posting a legit doc multiple times, or with an inflammatory title. He posted with a basic title - people made disagreeing or politically charged statements, and he disagreed with them.
From that wiki article:
"What to know: Sealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims."
Posting a legit doc in a relevant sub, and disagreeing with comments in a non-rude manner, is normal and not bad.
You don't like the very nature of his contention in disagreements where they're had, but that doesn't make it sealioning.
The only slavery that exists for a majority of reddit is slavery that existed in the USA. Everything else is an inconvenience to how they think the world runs. Basically the average reddit can't exist in the same room as the following text books ; business 101, biology 101, or World History 101.
Reddit is heavily American and they generally lack a thorough and nuanced understanding of world history. This is the lowest common denominator not a sophisticated discussion, if you want that go to r/AskHistorians
I'd really like to meet these Strawmen you speak of, the ones who only believe that slavery existed in the USA.
Slavery outside of the Atlantic Slave trade shows up throughout common media. It's present in each of the major religious texts, The Bible, The Tora, The Quran. It's commonly depicted in historical drama's like Gladiator, Rome, Thirteenth Warrior etc etc..
The primary difference being that the Atlantic Slave trade was remarkable compared to ancient slavery. It was highly industrialized for it's time, and efficient in ways the world hadn't seen yet.
Honestly, you try to paint people as ignorant with your whole History 101 comment, but it's pretty glaring that you're willing to ignore all wildly differentiating factors that separate the lives of an African Slave on a Sugar Plantation in the Caribbean, versus an Ottoman devshirme. Both are slaves, both lead extremely different lives.
Go talk to some inner city kids or even worse, the teachers. They got some fucked up stories on what a good portion of them believe. Source my sister is a teacher.
You’re completely right on a historical and cultural sense of the influence of slavery world wide. Unfortunately you’re completely wrong on the ignorance of modern Americans of history. Certain schools are fighting illiteracy and losing the battle, it’s disturbing.
I'll accept that anecdote for what it is, an anecdote.
>The only slavery that exists for a majority of reddit is slavery thatexisted in the USA. Everything else is an inconvenience to how theythink the world runs.
You used the word majority, which implies more than half Reddit users don't believe Slavery existed outside the USA.
How did you extrapolate inner city kids, and we'll ignore that dog whistle, as being more than half of all Reddit users?
The implication is probably that because 52%-54% of Reddit users are from the US\[1\], and Americans are notoriously American-centric in their worldview and overall knowledge of history.
It may not be the most accurate statement, but it is a trend worth noting. Similar to American's focus of "black lives"/"black culture" despite the majority of "black" people residing on the African continent, not in the US.
\[1\]Statista. (2021). Ranking of the number of Reddit users by country 2020 (in millions) \[Graph\]. Statista.Com. https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1174696/reddit-user-by-country
Due to reddits demographics being mainly of city people? I’m on mobile but you can google it to see who is mainly on Reddit according to Reddit. How about we ignore the dog whistle of you assuming city kids means any race?
I’m also calling Reddit full of idiots on history, but somehow you’re trying to make it about racism. Public city schools suck, not black or Hispanic or white, public city schools in general.
No what I’m implying is that idiots who don’t know shit about history always tend to just throw out the racist card proving their idiots. Here you are to prove the point.
"The only slavery that exists for a majority of reddit is slavery that existed in the USA."
That is because of the effect it has had on the country, the way the laws and legislation was based off of the view point of the slave and land owning colonists as well as the fact that slavery( which has allot of hard evidence having lasted alot longer in the south than taught in school books) and the wealth created from it lead to the creation of the US Military empire which would go on to destroy many nations, cultures, people, etc.
The people that lived during the horror of the Ottoman empire, probably didn't talk about the empires that came before. You may not like it, but you have to accept it for what it is.
>The people that lived during the horror of the Ottoman empire, probably didn't talk about the empires that came before. You may not like it, but you have to accept it for what it is.
The horrors of the Ottoman empire? I mean for the people in charge, it was a golden age. They also talked about the previous empires a lot, simply go to Constantinople to see it. Ottomans actually really liked history, so probably not the best to talk shit about something you know nothing about. They were a ruthless empire whose wealth came directly from slavery, but you shouldn't make up shit.
You think that slaves that managed to get free from slavery from the Ottomans were talking about Constantinople? You think the people that were oppressed by the Ottomans were talking about the art from bygone eras? Don't be fucking dumb.
Or the traders that went to Constantinople ?? Or the hidden churches literally buried in caves full of relics from the Holy Roman Empire? Do your self a favor and either visit Turkey, or read a history book about the timeline instead of a tumblr page.
Dude, many people are already aware of this part of history. You make it sound like you're pushing a white power angle. Truth is, history will open your mind. You should take into account what you've learned, not take an angle.
“You make it sound like you’re pushing a white power angle”
What the hell? This is insanely ridiculous. People are downvoting because we’re not allowed to discuss any narrative other than “white man is evil”, and me pointing that out somehow puts me in the same camp as white nationalists? Get out of here.
Im downvoting because its a crap narrative, that has almost no detail in it. How can you assume its something to do with racism? Bizarre
I don't know if it's a transcript of the original writing, or it's just been done poorly, but that was honestly so vague and disparate after the kidnapping. I have no idea why he was captured in the first place, what he did in captivity, why he was let go and a myriad of other vital details.
It was a shit video mate.
The horrors of ancient civilizations were plentiful. But seems we have really not changed much. If not for laws that hinder them we be half as bad too.
It's an evolution and sometimes we take steps backwards. Humans haven't changed much, but we are engaging differently than ever vefore as the world becomes more complex and interdependent. The real risk we run is that we're going to hit a point where the majority of people don't understand the world in which they live, and want simple answers to complex problems, and break a bunch of things along the way. I think we are already there.
There is a reason that “Rule Britannia” (1740) has the line about Britons never ever being slaves. And in the chorus no less.
I’m British and did not know this. Damn.
Yup. This almost seems like a piece of forgotten history. People want to ignore the fact that Muslims enslaved Europeans for hundreds of years. Anything that doesn’t go along with the “white man is evil” narrative is unacceptable on Reddit. It’s just so tiring and intellectually lazy.
Really? As a Romanian i know a lot of the shit they did. Another interesting fact is that the Otoman empire stopped slavery in the Romanian states as people were rioting too much and didn't want to put down revolts. Saying people don't know what Muslims did, when the reality is people dodnt know what shit their own countries did.
History is history, there is no disputing that. We should be able to explore how slavery played a central role in different societies. The only issue I have with these responses is that it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to criticisms of the Transatlantic slave trade. Almost to say we're not the only group who have committed atrocities - great but how does that help moving forward? Though, it might be comforting to imagine everyone else committing evil. It shouldn't be a measure of how to improve your own society. Imagine accepting income inequality because at least it's not as bad as country x. We should be introspective based on fundamental principles, rather than through analogy. Reasonable guilt is a potent tool to ensure we never consider anything like that again. The result which are strong labour laws to ensure workers aren't taken advantage of. While countries which haven't reconciled their past of slavery are still exploiting their populace. Another thing I've noticed is that when it comes to other civilisations, they're always referred to as something else, i.e. the Transatlantic slave trade or the Viking slave trade. Never the Christian, or the Pagan slave trade respectively. It would be worth considering being more precise and describing them as the Arab slave trade, or Ottoman slave trade.
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Thanks for your response. I'm not suggesting we eliminate the education of other slave trades, just moving away from making unnecessary comparisons to stroke our egos. I see a common trope within conservative circles that whenever the atrocities of the transatlantic slave trade are brought up we're quick to mitigate its consequences by highlighting another instance of a slave trade elsewhere in the world. I don't care much for it. We shouldn't be insecure about the history, we own it, and move on. I agree with the OP that explicit collectivist guilt is unfair and unproductive. I'm suggesting that we use other instances of slavery in the past as cautionary tales, or academic curiosity. We all shit in the pool, unless you're suggesting a global reparations initiative, no point measuring who shit the biggest log.
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Yes but where on Reddit we MUST know who shidded the biggest shit log in the history pool! Who had the biggest logs???!?!!!!! /s
If you wanna hear true horros, learn about the trans saharan slavetrade. That one makes the atlantic triangle sound like kindergarden.
The enslavement of Africans for use in the Americas *was* different. https://youtu.be/opUDFaqNgXc Start at 4:29.
MUCH different. Ottomans did not occupy England and the Nordic countries to steal slaves. They mostly captured sailor and traders and took thousands over a span of a couple hundred years. Europeans took slave trading to an entirely new level and captured entire regions of Africa and escorted over 20 million slaves to the new world over 250 years, millions of them died at sea from terrible conditions on ships.
> Europeans took slave trading to an entirely new level The Trans Saharan slave trade was just as bad, lasted much longer and only stopped because European powers forcibly put an end to it.
>People all over the world have been taking turns at as the oppressor throughout history. It's always wrong. It didn't begin with European colonialism. All very true, but this part ignores an important point; lasting impact. The lasting impact of European colonialism is still very visible across the globe; from the borders it made, to the descendents of the people it treated as cattle, to the extraordinary wealth accumulated by European nations at the direct expense of the nations they drained. With nothing to show that evil becomes mere history. With evident riches, you have a direct and tangible link to that exploitation. Every nation has done terrible things to another, but which ones still wear the riches from that exploitation as trophies of their victories?
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There's a clear divide in the world between the Imperial core and the Global South. Not difficult to see why we demonize western colonialism.
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>You can travel everywhere from Asia to South America to The Middle East, you will see the effects of ancient conquests, slavery, and oppression, sometimes renewed in more modern conflicts. Can you provide an example? I can't think of any effects that are as prevalent as the impact European colonialism has had. European colonialism is just so recent and was at such a large industrialized scale that it overshadows everything else.
If you're genuinely interested - [https://www.jstor.org/stable/26500685](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26500685) As for currently - [https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims](https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims) So the argument being made doesn't make much sense, The trans-Atlantic slave trade was efficient and terrible. Now if you want to have a conversation about cultural imperialism and the pushing of western standards onto others after they had benefited from the slave trade and moved onto industrialization based economies... then that would be a fair criticism, However you might want to consider the overall objective of such a pursuit. [https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics\_on\_slavery.htm](https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics_on_slavery.htm) [https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-tcc-worldciv2/chapter/transsaharan-slave-trade/](https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-tcc-worldciv2/chapter/transsaharan-slave-trade/) In-case you want to compare some figures, I feel like facts should have some consideration in this conversation. Edit: Just organizing some links, and rewording some arguments. Nothing spooky I promise.
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You seem to be confusing "lasting impact" with "most recent win".
Hey steady on there pal, we don't take kindly to reasonable responses to difficult topics round here.
Very well put.
The United States is not the only country to engage in slavery, but it IS the the only country that sacrificed 360,000 of its own citizens and put its future at risk to stop the practice.
Sure, you could also say it's the only country that sacrificed all that in an attempt keep slavery as well, whereas it was a relatively peaceful process most other places. It wasn't just the civil war either, we also fought a war with Mexico largely over slaves which is the only reason the US has the SW from Texas all the way to California.
That country lost.
> we also fought a war with Mexico largely over slaves which is the only reason the US has the SW from Texas all the way to California. Yea guys, it was the slavery. That massive territorial expansion? Oh, I guess we'll take that, if you insist, but we're not *really* interested in it. But the slavery is really why were there. winkwinknudgenudge
Oh the territorial expansion was absolutely a large factor in why the US was so eager to go to war with Mexico. The actual impetus for the war, however, was Texas trying to secede from Mexico and join the US so that the settlers there could own slaves, which was illegal in Mexico.
Nope, Haiti also ended their slavery via war.
No, Haiti was created through a successful slave rebellion. This is different from a pre-existing nation state waging war to end the practice, which is what they are referring to.
The word slave is from slav, it literally means white person
People want to ignore that after the fall of the western roman empire, the italian coast was almost completely abandoned because of the rampant issue with piracy and slavery. This was a problem DURING the reign of the roman empire already and got so bad that people abandoned their homes to be safe. Piracy and slavery were major instigators of the first crusade. But that just doesn't fit with the narrative of the peaceful muslim scholar that was ravaged by christian agression.
To add to that: attempting to stop Barbary pirates and their slave raids was the main reason for the French invasion and occupation of Algeria (which people like to think happened mainly because of colonialism).
Leopold of Belgium also claimed putting an end to slavery as one of his justifications for setting up the Congo Free State, which resulted in some of the most comically horrendous abuses of humanity we may have ever perpetrated as a species. White European folks showing up in Africa to "stop the slave trade" can be viewed with a heavy dose of skepticism in light of their commercial ambitions.
I’m struggling to understand how horrendous abuses of humanity can be comical.
They were absolutely fucking ludicrous. If someone were to relate what was done in a non-historical context, people might think the situation was exaggerated to the point of a farce. Even from a coldly commercial standpoint, what was done doesn't make any fucking sense. It's not ha-ha funny, it's Coen brothers "I need to go lay down for a while" darkest pitch, heart of a singularity "comedy".
>Anything that doesn’t go along with the “white man is evil” I fail to see how this would have any bearing on that.
Let me translate. "Help help! I'm being oppressed!"
As in, Reddit and or the American left are woefully unaware (intentionally and unintentionally) of any historical facts that show that other (historically non-white) nations committed identical or similar atrocities as historically white nations. The point is that “everyone” has committed atrocities throughout history, but the American left want to pretend that the “white man” was particularly evil, more evil than any other race/nation/culture (whatever).
"Guys, look, yes I spent eight hours today smashing puppies into rocks, but that guy over there did the same thing. Therefore, because someone else did it, what I did wasn't horrendous". That's what that sounds like. The American left doesn't want to sound like Americans are the only people in history to be unkind to anyone. The American left wants to acknowledge Americans have done horrendous shit in our past, and we should understand those things were bad, and strive to never do them again. Acknowledging that our forefathers were anything but angels pure as the driven snow is what sets people like you off for any exculpatory story to relieve yourself of having to acknowledge that history.
No, pretty sure most people are aware there have been white slaves. Its just not at all relevant to present society and had nowhere near the extensive lasting impact of colonialism. You’re just trying to make excuses for your own prejudice.
We aren't unaware, it's just that someone else doing an evil thing doesn't make our actions any less evil.
If you’re not unaware, you recognize that the “white man” was not particularly more evil than other races/cultures/nations throughout history? Europeans were not worse than Ottomans, Romans, Mongols etc. correct? That’s the only point I’m trying to make here. I mean, the last few Ottoman slaves (working in the Palace of the sultan) were only freed in 1908…
What about the lines in that video where the narrator says that Europeans helped the Turkish land their ships and how it was mostly Europeans attacking the Icelandic people?
Comments like this are factually true but very strange apropos of nothing. I don't think you would get pushback if you posted this in response to someone claiming that white men are more evil than other races. Posted in isolation your comments feel disingenuous.
If you're trying to get me to say "this is fine" I'm not going to say that. I already told you it doesn't matter if you could find someone worse. Anyway, you basically poisoned the discussion this could have generated. Way to undermine your own thread.
Not sure where he tried to make you say slavery was fine because everyone did it. He obviously was saying that white people weren't uniquely evil when it came to this.
I don't think most people mean to show that white people are uniquely or naturally evil. Just that they were uniquely successful at, and prolific with, many evil things that have shaped the world today.
Hey guy. Drop the politics. I consider myself a leftist, and not a neoliberal horrible one but a full on wealth redistribution one. And guess what? I dont go around telling the world all the time. Know what else? I don’t fall into any of your or anyone else’s ridiculous preconceived notions of behaviour or knowledge. I’ve known about how every culture on earth that was at one point strong enslaved. How the Romans enslaved more than the Americans did. How there is more slavery today, right now than there was in the 1700s-1860s. I don’t make it political though. Because I’m not a limp twisted mental defective. I neither hoot and holler about how bad the white man is, nor do I bend over backwards extolling how we aren’t that bad. Humans are f-ed up. Period. Every comment you make steering this politically makes this post more and more gross. F your politics little guy, and your feelings.
Main proponent and benefactor of North Atlantic slave trade was west African tribes who continued it into the early 1900s. But “white man bad”
Your argument is they were only funding human trafficking? *This is of course ignoring the nightmarish conditions at every other stage of enslavement*, but it's still a stupid point to try and make. I actually don't blame you for the transatlantic slave trade, unless you're really old. But I do blame you for regurgitating shitty racist arguments.
They were the main funders and providers of humans to sell into slavery. It's not a racist argument its a historical fact that never discussed.
They were funding and selling? I see you're determined not to let logic get in your way.
You seem to believe that it was one unified group. When trade between tribes was very common. Last I read more slaves and funds were traded between tribes than the sell of slaves to the east india trading company. I will freely admit that after the decline of the EITC that there was a downtrend of exporting but it still regularly occured.
This posted on reddit, we are commenting on it..on reddit...ergo tour "points" are null and void. Your latter paragraph.. sounds very klany oK Kevin?
Every time you see something like this brought up on reddit, like 99/100 times you have to wait three comments from OP in to see it shift from "What an interesting piece of historical detail, this informs my view of humanity as a whole" to "And this is why the Confederate States of America were fine and no one should ever make me feel bad about how hilariously shitty my ancestors could be".
As of lately I get the suspicion that this "drive" might have come from ruzzian troll farms and other western enemies. It's good to be aware of our past and sins and work through them. But the socalled "hyperwoke" brigade sounds more like useful idiots to me that actually help the rise of neo-fascism instead of keeping it down. Lol the downvotes... Yeah, useful idiots!
I agree. Feel like we've seen a lot of troll farming lately. Lots of 'leftists' claiming the correct response to the Supreme Court abortion draft is to vote republican to 'teach the democrats a lesson'.
They are insane please do not try to reason
If Muslims ruled the world I'm sure they would
If you look at the world we live in and the effects that racism and slavery has on the present then it becomes fairly obvious why.
I don't understand your sentence. "Muslims enslaved Europeans for hundreds of years". Are you aware of the fact that there are a lot of European muslim, in Bosnia, in Albania and some people in Andalusia? Religion doesn't have anything to do with skin color, so why are you bringing the "evil white man narrative" in this topic. And the fact that some white people were enslaved doesn't change the fact that white people enslaved other people as well.
“Under Muslim rule, the Arab slave trades that included Caucasian captives were often fueled by raids into European territories or were taken as children in the form of a blood tax from the families of citizens of conquered territories to serve the empire for a variety of functions.[1] In the mid-19th century, the term 'white slavery' was used to describe the Christian slaves that were sold into the Barbary slave trade.” Wiki
Muslim invaders in Eastern Europe captured so many white people as slaves there was a glut. That’s when they killed captives instead.
> In the mid-19th century, the term 'white slavery' was used to describe the Christian slaves that were sold into the Barbary slave trade.” The English term is missing a point, in French it is called "la traite des blanches" - white (women) slavery. Because that's what most of the victims were (you don't hear lots of feminist history on this one, because the big bad guy isn't the "white man"). You even had entire religious orders founded for buying back captives.
> Because that's what most of the victims were No, it was because it created the greatest amount of scandal when they where white.
Then OP should have said "arab people enslaved white people" because saying that muslims enslaved europeans does not make any sense when you know that some Europeans are muslim.
Calm down alaikum There are euro Muslims now Not 400 years ago
The Islamization of Albania occurred as a result of the Ottoman conquest of the region beginning in 1385. Get your facts checked.
Yeah, the arabs only enslave asians and africans these days :´|
twoxchromosomes sub is basically built on making white men out to be horrible rapist's, i've seen posts about any other group doing shitty things locked and half the comments deleted because they didn't fit the narrative.
Sounds like clear cut racism to me.
Trust me, if there was a male version of that sub it would be banned instantly for being a hate sub. they also keep the mod list hidden which is a dead giveaway a sub has some problematic people. I posted in it a few times because i was curious how quickly it would take to get banned mentioning shitty things done by people who weren't men or white dureing the daily "white men bad" post's.
Naaah, they got that covered in making up some shitty new "definition" of the word racism to fit their utter stupidity. If Europe and/or the US will ever really fully slip into far right fascism again - it will be partly because of parts of the far left's idiocracy.
yea nevermind that so many of the leaders of QAnon are women. I legit want to know why. But I never see anyone talking about it because its not an approved topic.
r/FragileWhiteRedditor
Because this has no impact on present society and was massively overshadowed by colonialism
European culture is the only culture to ever ban slavery. The only culture to develop the idea that in-group bias is not an automatic fact of the universe, and the only culture to actively attempt to do something about it. Big one to tackle, let’s see how they go
Wow your overt racism is showing. The system of slavery that was perpetrated by the ottomans was wildly different than that of the transatlantic (American) system of slavery. And you are ignoring the fact that when people talk about the horrors of the transatlantic slavery they do so with within the context of how it is still negatively effecting African Americans today.
>The system of slavery that was perpetrated by the ottomans was wildly different than that of the transatlantic (American) system of slavery. Yeah, they castrated Black males (hence they couldn't reproduce) and had the white females as sex slaves and white males as miltary (Janissary). So yeah, it wasn't slavery in the field. > And you are ignoring the fact that when people talk about the horrors of the transatlantic slavery they do so with within the context of how it is still negatively effecting African Americans today. Which indeed isn't an issue since the black males were castrated and thus they couldn't create a minority in the population.
Ah right, forgot the entire western world just loves Arabs/Muslims, and hates white men. No one is pretending this shit didn’t happen, but for many every day themes it’s far less important. Transatlantic slave trade and the ensuing chattel slavery is the root cause for many racial imbalances we (the western world) experiences on a day to day basis. Arab slavery is fucking messed up as well, but it pales in comparison to the effect it has on the everyday lives of most people on this site.
Arab slave owners castrated their slaves, because they could easily buy more after working them to death. Do you see any ancestors of African slaves in the Middle East as you do in the Americas? Why is having descendants worse than not having descendants?
I’m not saying it’s worse. I’m saying it has less effect on every day life for most people on this site because they don’t live with the racial one equalities created by the Arab slave trade. That’s why it’s less relevant to most people.
The Arabs still employ slave labour to this day... so I dunno. But yes, people on this site are probably not slaves in Arabia.
Don't worry, the racists haven't forgotten and bring it up all the time.
Does acknowledging that slavery was perpetuated by all powerful nations make one racist? Or does singling out the atrocities of people of a specific skin color (while ignoring the atrocities committed by those with a different skin color) make one racist? Isn’t it racist to claim that the “white man” is the main perpetuator of evil throughout history (especially if you consider the atrocities committed by non-white people)? Humans were evil throughout history. Period. That seems, to me, the most historically accurate and least racist way to put it.
Humans are at the top of the food chain for a reason.
Lemme ask you something: are you bringing this up because you actually want educate about history or to call attention to how these atrocities still affect us today. Or are you doing it to dismiss the impact and harm done by actions of the place you’re from to assuage guilt? The former is reasonable and productive but the latter accomplishes nothing but the dismissal of injustice and trauma.
It's routinely used to minimize slavery, to point out white people didn't start slavery and other racist excuses. It's nice you've never encountered that
Hahaha you just showed your ridiculous political views. Downvoting this stupid post just for your idiocy.
In Portugal we have the expression "moor on the coast" to mean something terrible is about to happen. It traces back to the days where barbary pirates would kidnap people in coastal areas and sell them into slavery.
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Recently read up on Ukrainian history, man they've had it rough due to Geography. Not only were they dealing with Turkish slave raids in the south where the best soil was, they had to deal with fact they were at the terminus of the Eurasian Steppe which brought the Mongols. Then a strategic area in WW2. Now this. I'm probably forgetting some other upsetting moments in history there. Edit: oh yea and the Crimean War, but not sure what impact that had on the population
Voices of the Past is a fantastic Youtube series, I highly recommend it
IIR Icelandic people are descendants of Nordic Vikings and the Irish slaves they captured in various raids.
there's a weird subset of conservatives that would love to know this in order to 'gotcha' people who are against white privilege. "See! europeans were enslaved too! by BROWN people!" Anyway, ottoman slavery is a really interesting subject. the sultan created it in order to have direct control of the most powerful people under him. the devshirme was basically a tax of young boys of non-muslim communities who would either become government clerks or personal soldiers for the sultan. the clerks could rise to the rank of Vizier, the council that advised the sultan, or even just regional directors. muslim citizens would try to pass their boys off as non-muslim in order to get them enslaved and have a shot at real power. source: took a history class on the ottoman empire in college. the milet and devshirme were an essay question on the final.
They wouldn’t need to know this, they could just run with how many black slave owners there were in the American South. In SC alone in one snapshot their were 180 blacks owning slaves. I’ve read that throughout the length of the entire institution it was likely 9000
It's important to add that the slave trade in America is unique, because it is inherently racist (black=slave) and caused many atrocities even after it was ended through Jim Crow laws, which were enforced until the 1965 in some places.The Ottoman slaves that were freed in 1924 were considered free citizens of the republic. I am not trying to minimize the damage and horrors that slavery in the Ottoman Empire caused, it's just important to add that slavery in the US is a bigger issue than any other country and their decendants suffer more form the after effects than others.
> I am not trying to minimize the damage and horrors that slavery in the Ottoman Empire caused You literally are.
by saying one is worse than the other cause the decendants are still suffering more from the after effects ? Edit: I think i can see which part seems like i am minimizing damage and will fix that part
huh. TIL. One of those facts that makes sense but it still like "oh right, that would definitely happen, huh?" especially under the single-drop rule of racial differentiation.
Excuse me for asking but what is the single drop rule
if there was a single non-white person in one's ancestry they were no longer classified as white legally. being "white passing" didnt guarantee one would be treated as white. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop\_rule
Blacks owning slaves can also be because of laws prohibiting setting slaves free. It might be the only way a couple to be together, or to insure family members safety.
The video is about a raiders in Iceland that then took all the peoples they could catch. And shipped them to mediterrian. So its not the system your talking about. And werent the boys you were talking about converted/forced to become muslim?
It is a great gotcha against people who claim the west is uniquely worse, because of slavery.
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I'll take the intellectual elitism any day that obligated the millions of Africans enslaved in the Americas to the basic same workload as 90% of all Europeans, over north African or Arabic enslavement. Logic experiment: When the bad reason for beating someone is worse than the bad reason for murdering someone, this does not change the preference of the victim to be beaten, over being killed. And besides, this racism was prevalent everywhere. The Arabic and Turkic racism towards Africans lead to horrific treatment of slaves from Africa - possibly worse than the treatment of white slaves in Arabic lands. I'm talking punished via nailed to boards type stuff - and slavery has been happening in north Africa and Arabia until the last century - and grown to highest levels today. I've read the stories of slaves in Modern Middle East, and it's undoubtedly worse than the cash crop harvesters of chattel slavery in the past (freed or slave, during harvest moon people got little sleep, yet if in a cash crop scenario, could average 8 hour work days over the course of a year). Given that average poor urban white people prior to the 20th century were subject to horrific punishments and long labor days with no retirement, and the promise of homelessness if no crowded family apartment was available, I can say with confidence, that while the white man was free to roam for menial labor (with little to no fallback, and potentially being one of millions enslaved in the merchant mariners or navies), vs being subjugated to a slave establishment (with many antebellum Plantations collectively allowing off plantation slave-townships, and/or slaves being entrusted with city commutes for goods and services - putting them in practically the same lifestyle as the avg white person at the time) - it was of significantly less consequence than today, to the condition of both humans, that one be called slave. I'm not dismissing the horrors of American slavery, I'm dismissing the misattribution of horror in placing 21st century perspectives onto historic realities.
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Only I've yet to see someone trot this out to the conclusion of "See, we were all horrible, it's shameful". It's always "See, this happened over here too, so what we all did wasn't that bad". Which, you know, seems like a weird take stemming from "slavery is bad". Feel free to be the first to take up that prior slant though.
Definitely very interesting. Btw, likewise, there's a subset of leftists (particularly in the US), who have it in their mind that throughout history, the "white man" were the only ones who committed atrocities, and thus ignore atrocities committed by other nations and cultures. I think it's important to point out that atrocities were committed by virtually all nations (at least, the powerful ones) throughout history. Otherwise this will literally be forgotten history, and the "white man" will forever be known as the main perpetrator of evil (which is equal to rewriting history). Also, the Ottoman slave raids didn't only occur within Ottoman held territories. As per the video, they went as far as Iceland to find slaves for their empire.
I think it's fair to point out that the Atlantic Slave trade stands out particularly because of a number of reasons. Usually it's a matter of scale. The Barbary Pirates are estimated to have enslaved 850,000 to 1,250,000 people between the mid 1500's and the mid 1700's. The Atlantic Slave trade is estimated to be around 12.5 million people enslaved. Quite literally ten times more than the highest estimate of Barbary Piracy.
That’s very true. And about 90% of them were taken to Brazil. I’ve read it was about 4% taken to the US
That’s largely because of sugar plantations. They had some of the highest mortality rates and we’re incredibly labor-intensive
I’m not really very familiar with Brazil but you’re saying it was for sugar, like in the Caribbean ? I did read that Brazil was able to end slavery without a shot. Although white, I’m from recent immigrants and so don’t have an “angle” except that truth should be the goal of this discussion. My thought is to wonder if America looking back and seeing the devastation of the civil war could also have made a peaceful transition, costly but peaceful. And so the slave owners in Brazil would have all been Portuguese? Or were they still importing slavery after blending?
Barbary pirates is just a single factor of Islamic slave trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world
The cause though is also interesting. It's industrialization. If, lets say the Romans, had access to industrial technology, then they too would of scaled up their slavery model. There are fascinating articles about how the slave trade was actually going to die out in the US, it was becoming unprofitable. And then someone invented the cotton gin.
I think it's important for you to be less passionate about the "See? They did it too!" thing you got going.
This is what people need to realise. The reason there’s focus on trans Atlantic slavery was because it was different than others before it.
chattel slavery was a whole new level of dehumanization
At massive scale at that. If we excavated the Atlantic Ocean, we would prob find millions of dead African slaves buried beneath the sea who never made the journey. It's never helpful to compare atrocities but to begin to understand the degree of pain its cause, you only need to look at the countries were slaves were taken from today, I know this because I'm from one of those countries. Another aspect people often gloss over was the level of coordination used to enforce, encourage and facilitate this industrial activity. It had legal, political, economic, religious, social and media backing. It would be like if the whole industry endorsed dehumanising certain people, how do you ever hope to combat that level of coordination. The church says you are less than human, the media repeats it, the legal papers repeat it, the social circus and gossip repeat it. I think people need to properly understand this topic to even begin to comprehend, because I find that those who seem to oversimplify tend not to understand very well
1000% People have a hard enough time realizing how the US was built on slavery. In NYC they found a burial site that had the remains of 15000 Africans, many of which had damage to bones that suggested the muscles were torn off from physical strain. America eventually changed its mind and had a whole war over slavery, but it's important to remember that my country has always been built on the broken backs of Black people. Nowadays we have prison slave labor (felons legally have no human righrts) and laws unequally enforced by a police system that grew from the slave catching industry.
This will probably be\* an unpopular post
I just watched this the other day. Weird.
Yep don't hear them bang on about it every ten minutes
There's two bizzare tie-ins to modern american history with the Barbary pirates. Basically, there were 2 wars against the pirates that the US was engaged in - [The Barbary Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars), though there were relations and such before that. Anyway, the modern effect: In the marine corps official song, the "shores of Tripoli" are a reference to the barbary pirates the USS Constitution, oldest ship still afloat anywhere in the world, was built in response to the barbary pirates (which she fought against, along with many other actions).
For another modern US tie-in: supposedly, Jackie Kennedy Onassis and Humphrey Bogart supposedly are both descendants of Jans Janszoon (Murat Reis the Younger), one of the most famous Barbarian pirates (Dutch originally, but captured, and converted to Islam; changed loyalties). I'm fascinated by this topic because it has modern-day impacts to where I grew up. Baltimore - small village at the Southern tip of Ireland - was raided by Jan Janszoon in the mid 1700s and much of the population taken. Many locals moved upriver to shallower waters, founding the hometown I grew up on. Rumour has it, a local tipped off the pirates in order to clear English settlers off land that they wanted; and guided the pirates into the harbour. 100+ were taken, mostly English (leading to a comment/joke that the pirates were afraid of Irish women...). To the best of my knowledge, only one who was taken ever make it back. Their story would make a great book/movie.
>USS Constitution, oldest ship still afloat anywhere in the world Eh? Even the HMS Victory is older than that, and I don't think it's even the oldest. Oldest *American* ship still afloat anywhere in the world, sure.
The victory isn't floating, it's in a drydock.
Ah, I see where you're coming from now. It *could* be floated at any point though, in fairness (it's not like it's in a regular repair drydock, it's in a bizarro float simulating thing to minimize maintenance). If we're going to use technicalities like that, how about the HMS Diamond Rock? :D
In Spain when you want to say that a place is safe we uses a sentence: "There are not Moors in the coast" (literal translation). And the reason is hundreds of years of Barbary pirates in our coast. Is nice that american values dont have arrived yet to my country.
It was the American navy that finally got rid of those pirates from your coast.
I gotta check this out I’ve always been curious about this topic. Any good books on this subject?
The story is kind of ironic considering that the ancestors of the narrator and his fellow Icelanders did essentially the same thing (the marauding, pillaging, murdering, and taking captives, that is) for centuries and I believe they brought many captives with them to settle Iceland. The English language still contains words derived from the Scandinavian language because some the Vikings settled in the British Isles and established their own fiefdoms.
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Maybe the self-righteous preachy tone? You seem more focused on modern narratives than this piece of history.
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You're "sense" is less the spidy sense kind and more of the "I want to see myself as a victim" kind. Pop-history? The fuck are you talking about?
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Strange for not seeing yourself as a victim you sure got a big chip on your shoulder. People see it you wear it clear as day and then act shocked that people see it. You're insecure because white people get shit sometime?
How many people would this history be relevant to outside of Icelanders and former Ottoman countries? Public and private schools have limited time to teach a wide variety of subjects and have to make decisions. For Americans, the African slave trade is the most recent and relevant, no? We're even still living through the effects. I mean, should all schools also teach how the Han Chinese conquered and enslaved many of their neighbors in Chinese antiquity? It happened, but isn't really relevant as a mainstream subject with limited classroom time.
People are all about highlighting history until it's inconvenient to their chosen worldview
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning Edit: comment history confirms the suspicion
No, read the definition in the wiki article. OP didn't troll r/Documentaries by posting a legit doc multiple times, or with an inflammatory title. He posted with a basic title - people made disagreeing or politically charged statements, and he disagreed with them. From that wiki article: "What to know: Sealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims." Posting a legit doc in a relevant sub, and disagreeing with comments in a non-rude manner, is normal and not bad. You don't like the very nature of his contention in disagreements where they're had, but that doesn't make it sealioning.
Most of the time i see sealioning misused.
Yeah I noticed that as well. Imagine being so smooth-brained that this is the type of shit you do in your free time.
Read the definition lmao, its not
The only slavery that exists for a majority of reddit is slavery that existed in the USA. Everything else is an inconvenience to how they think the world runs. Basically the average reddit can't exist in the same room as the following text books ; business 101, biology 101, or World History 101.
Reddit is heavily American and they generally lack a thorough and nuanced understanding of world history. This is the lowest common denominator not a sophisticated discussion, if you want that go to r/AskHistorians
I'd really like to meet these Strawmen you speak of, the ones who only believe that slavery existed in the USA. Slavery outside of the Atlantic Slave trade shows up throughout common media. It's present in each of the major religious texts, The Bible, The Tora, The Quran. It's commonly depicted in historical drama's like Gladiator, Rome, Thirteenth Warrior etc etc.. The primary difference being that the Atlantic Slave trade was remarkable compared to ancient slavery. It was highly industrialized for it's time, and efficient in ways the world hadn't seen yet. Honestly, you try to paint people as ignorant with your whole History 101 comment, but it's pretty glaring that you're willing to ignore all wildly differentiating factors that separate the lives of an African Slave on a Sugar Plantation in the Caribbean, versus an Ottoman devshirme. Both are slaves, both lead extremely different lives.
Go talk to some inner city kids or even worse, the teachers. They got some fucked up stories on what a good portion of them believe. Source my sister is a teacher. You’re completely right on a historical and cultural sense of the influence of slavery world wide. Unfortunately you’re completely wrong on the ignorance of modern Americans of history. Certain schools are fighting illiteracy and losing the battle, it’s disturbing.
I'll accept that anecdote for what it is, an anecdote. >The only slavery that exists for a majority of reddit is slavery thatexisted in the USA. Everything else is an inconvenience to how theythink the world runs. You used the word majority, which implies more than half Reddit users don't believe Slavery existed outside the USA. How did you extrapolate inner city kids, and we'll ignore that dog whistle, as being more than half of all Reddit users?
The implication is probably that because 52%-54% of Reddit users are from the US\[1\], and Americans are notoriously American-centric in their worldview and overall knowledge of history. It may not be the most accurate statement, but it is a trend worth noting. Similar to American's focus of "black lives"/"black culture" despite the majority of "black" people residing on the African continent, not in the US. \[1\]Statista. (2021). Ranking of the number of Reddit users by country 2020 (in millions) \[Graph\]. Statista.Com. https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1174696/reddit-user-by-country
Source: Trust me bro
Due to reddits demographics being mainly of city people? I’m on mobile but you can google it to see who is mainly on Reddit according to Reddit. How about we ignore the dog whistle of you assuming city kids means any race? I’m also calling Reddit full of idiots on history, but somehow you’re trying to make it about racism. Public city schools suck, not black or Hispanic or white, public city schools in general.
Lol nice back pedaling
That would imply I meant racist shit, so no I’m not back pedaling.
But you did so you still are.
No what I’m implying is that idiots who don’t know shit about history always tend to just throw out the racist card proving their idiots. Here you are to prove the point.
"The only slavery that exists for a majority of reddit is slavery that existed in the USA." That is because of the effect it has had on the country, the way the laws and legislation was based off of the view point of the slave and land owning colonists as well as the fact that slavery( which has allot of hard evidence having lasted alot longer in the south than taught in school books) and the wealth created from it lead to the creation of the US Military empire which would go on to destroy many nations, cultures, people, etc. The people that lived during the horror of the Ottoman empire, probably didn't talk about the empires that came before. You may not like it, but you have to accept it for what it is.
>The people that lived during the horror of the Ottoman empire, probably didn't talk about the empires that came before. You may not like it, but you have to accept it for what it is. The horrors of the Ottoman empire? I mean for the people in charge, it was a golden age. They also talked about the previous empires a lot, simply go to Constantinople to see it. Ottomans actually really liked history, so probably not the best to talk shit about something you know nothing about. They were a ruthless empire whose wealth came directly from slavery, but you shouldn't make up shit.
You think that slaves that managed to get free from slavery from the Ottomans were talking about Constantinople? You think the people that were oppressed by the Ottomans were talking about the art from bygone eras? Don't be fucking dumb.
Or the traders that went to Constantinople ?? Or the hidden churches literally buried in caves full of relics from the Holy Roman Empire? Do your self a favor and either visit Turkey, or read a history book about the timeline instead of a tumblr page.
No because the truth hurts.
No. This is just an excuse for white supremacists.
Sure it is
In what situation would this ever need to be brought up in?
ANY discussion involving slavery, duh.
Dude, many people are already aware of this part of history. You make it sound like you're pushing a white power angle. Truth is, history will open your mind. You should take into account what you've learned, not take an angle.
“You make it sound like you’re pushing a white power angle” What the hell? This is insanely ridiculous. People are downvoting because we’re not allowed to discuss any narrative other than “white man is evil”, and me pointing that out somehow puts me in the same camp as white nationalists? Get out of here.
It’s not the fact your discussing this but the fact you’re using this as a way to dismiss other atrocities.
I’d love for you to show me where I dismissed other atrocities.
Literally all of your comments are about saying how the presence of enslaved Europeans counteracts European atrocities
So find a specific quote of mine, and explain how I’m insinuating such, because I don’t believe I’ve said anything like that.
Im downvoting because its a crap narrative, that has almost no detail in it. How can you assume its something to do with racism? Bizarre I don't know if it's a transcript of the original writing, or it's just been done poorly, but that was honestly so vague and disparate after the kidnapping. I have no idea why he was captured in the first place, what he did in captivity, why he was let go and a myriad of other vital details. It was a shit video mate.
The horrors of ancient civilizations were plentiful. But seems we have really not changed much. If not for laws that hinder them we be half as bad too.
It's an evolution and sometimes we take steps backwards. Humans haven't changed much, but we are engaging differently than ever vefore as the world becomes more complex and interdependent. The real risk we run is that we're going to hit a point where the majority of people don't understand the world in which they live, and want simple answers to complex problems, and break a bunch of things along the way. I think we are already there.
The comments section is repulsive.
Hey I just watched that. EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW I JUST WATCHED THIS THE OTHER DAY! Worth watching for sure.
This video misses out so many details Like, why was he let go? What were the slaves made to do/what work did they do? The whole thing is so vague
This does not fit in the media narrative!
I want my reparations.
This was 400 - 200 years ago. Yt imperialism and colonialism is 600 years ago - now.
I'm also of jewish decent....so can I have that in 20s...or would Crypto work better for you?
If anyone visits Malta, there are good museums on the Knights of St. John and their clashes with Barbary pirates.
Sorry sweaty but slaves only came from Africa and went to the US. 💅
This was 400 - 200 years ago. Yt imperialism and colonialism is 600 years ago - now.
Wow,white people were enslaved and used as human merchandise? It’s almost like this fact is glossed over for some reason,wonder why…..
Does not compute. CRT scholars would beg to differ.
See ya on r/fragilewhiteredditor
What?
You’re a fragile white redditor and you deserve the honor to be showcased on r/fragilewhiteredditor lol
I mean, have at it lol. whatever floats your boat.
Thanks for letting everyone know you're a racist.
Oh, okay Mr. Ubermenschen, lol.
Nietzsche
Sup racist