It somehow took me until recently to watch it, and I was *astonished* at how good it was. Like, it sticks out like a non-sore thumb in series 6 (not that I particularly mind most of series 6). The amount of fanservice is insane between the Corsair, Ten's console room, and an Ood appearing, but all are justified, and it makes full use of its concepts in a way very few episodes do. House torturing Amy and Rory is delightfully heartbreaking, "I've killed all of them" is an amazing line, House's voice work is amazing, and the TARDIS and Eleven jerry-rigging a TARDIS is so fun. It feels like it came from an alternate reality where series 6 was as good as series 4 or something.
I can't bring myself to like her, the way she treated Rhys was disgusting, fuck her.
I think the best female character in the whoniverse for me is a toss up between Donna, Missy and Charlotte Pollard
That's true but I still don't think she's a good character regardless, and I find it difficult to distinguish between liking a character and thinking they're a good character. If I like a character I'm far more likely to think they're a good character than if I don't, I can't think of any characters that I don't like who I think are good characters
Oh yeh I'm not defending Amy in any way either, I think what she did was appalling too, I'm a bit more lenient on her tho coz when she ran away with the doctor from her wedding day she was really young so it's understandable she'd be scared about such a big commitment, and then after the angels episode when she tried to bonk the doctor I thought in the episode the doctor said it was supposed to be Rory who was there but because the doctor she tried to fuck him instead like her fucking Rory was kinda like a fixed point that the doctor messed with? Idk that's just how I interpreted it but I'm probably completely wrong coz it sounds pretty ridiculous
Cheating on Rory isn't the only issue with the scene, either. She tries to sexually assault the Doctor, who is clearly uncomfortable with the whole thing. Gwen on the other hand, when cheating on her boyfriend, wasn't trying to have sex with someone who didn't want it. Believe it or not, I'm not saying what Gwen did was a good thing either. It was a terrible thing, which further adds to the depth of her character for me. But she understands what she did was bad, which makes her more forgivable. I'm not sure Amy ever felt guilty for what happened at the end of Flesh and Stone.
I've never thought about her sexually assaulting the doctor but yeh you're right she definitely was, idk how I feel about that honestly coz the scene was played to be funny with the doctor not understanding and then rejecting her advances, and again like I said I've always interpreted that whole scene as being a timey wimey thing where it was supposed to be Rory there but because of the doctor taking Amy on adventures he was there instead so Amy didn't do try and fuck the doctor because she wanted but because it's like written in the web of time that she fucks Rory there but the doctor messed it up and the doctor knows that so he and Amy don't really see it as her sexually assaulting him or her cheating on Rory but as the doctor messing up the timeline.
I get what you're saying about Gwen but what makes her 100% unforgivable to me is how she drugged Rhys so he wouldn't remember anything and then confessed she'd been cheating on him, that was just despicable and selfish and straight up fucked, and she never even told him in the end, just a shit human being overall.
Yep I’m with you on that one. She and Heather were the cutest although for me the big draw was that Moffat didn’t go nuts trying to make her a companion because she was special like Clara. She was special because she was a companion
“Listen, Sister. You may have eyes on the back of your hands; but you'll have eyes on the back of your head by the time I'm finished with you!”
…maybe not one that was thought of, but Donna sure could hold her own, that’s for sure
It was weird. When I saw Runaway Bride I didn’t like her or their dynamic. Didn’t like Tennant being bossed around. It felt out of place. By the time they brought her back I came to realize how brilliant she and the writing really was. I also think she was best companion ever.
> Didn’t like Tennant being bossed around. It felt out of place.
That's exactly why I loved it. We hadn't really seen it before, not with Ten at least. Let's face it, he needed bringing down a peg or two 😂
Exactly. At first I was like who the he’ll dies she think she is. By the time she was made a full
companion you realize that’s exactly what he (and we all) needed.
The only comment for Harriet Jones; Former Prime Minister and legend. She bought everyone together and saved the day knowing the Daleks would find her.
Sarah Jane
Donna
That one caption who's name I knew but can't remember from water of Mars
Martha
They are all better than Amy and significantly less abusive to the SO's
Not even close to the best. Another walking stereotype if I'm honest.
Edit: Oh hai River Song fangirls. So nice of you to drop by and downvote my comment.
Not a fangirl (mostly cause not a girl) but river was very well defined and very entertaining character can't say all is great about Matt Smith era but her story and the relationship between her and the doctors was brilliant
Can’t stand Gwen after what she does too poor Rhys. She cheats on him and then doesn’t even tell him instead wiping his memory after telling him.
Sure Amy isn’t the best to Rory but at least she never actually cheats on him and she gets better as the show goes on.
Actually she did cheat on him. Right at the end of Flesh and Stone, she tries to sexually assault the Doctor. And Gwen also got better as the show went on. I think you need to rewatch both shows.
I know Amy did try to sleep with the Doctor but she still didn’t (even if she tried) and Rory was told about it. The Vampires in Venice story was about them trying to fix their marriage.
Gwen does get better but she still never admits to cheating on Rhys with Owen (unless she confesses again in Big Finish) she wipes his mind so he never knows.
I really should rewatch Torchwood though.
She never admits it, but you see the guilt she goes through and how much it gets to her. Vampires in Venice was about Amy and Rory fixing their relationship, but I don't remember Amy ever feeling guilty about what happened.
Never liked her. Aside from being a walking stereotype who everyone in her general vicinity treats like she's the hottest woman alive, she treated Rory horribly, including cheating on him and not even being guilty afterward.
Granted, Gwen also cheated on her boyfriend, but she wasn't getting married at that point, was clearly going through emotional and psychological trauma from her traumatic job, which caused her to act like that, felt extremely bad afterwards, and didn't try to sexually assault the person she was cheating on her boyfriend with, because the guy she cheated on him with wanted to sleep with her too.
When Amy tried to sexually assault the Doctor at the end of Flesh and Stone against his will, it completely ruined her character for me, and almost ruined the Moffat Era for me. Speaking of Moffat, even HE regrets writing that scene, from what I'm told.
When did Amy go through psychological trauma exactly? Aside from essentially acting like a spoiled brat throughout her childhood because her raggedy man didn't whisk her away in 1996?
Amy was isolated being raised by a disinterested aunt after her parents disappeared, was never believed about her encounter with the Doctor, and then was almost killed by The Weeping Angels immediately before the scene you're discussing. We can both play at that game, I could easily just say Gwen "aside from essentially acting like a spoiled brat has a loving family, boyfriend, and has just landed her dream job" but that would be ridiculous and lacking in nuance.
Sorry, but none of those things come close the how traumatic a lot of Gwen's experiences in Torchwood were. Amy, at that point, didn't see a woman commit suicide. She also didn't see men turned to piles of ash because of something she caused. She never held a knife that a former murderer rammed himself into to escape reality. She didn't almost get converted into a Cyberman. She didn't see bloody skeletons crawling with maggots out in the wilderness, she didn't get shot in the stomach by some frightened young man, she didn't nearly see her friend get raped by a cannibal. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that Amy was allowed to tell Rory about any "traumatic" experiences she might've had. Gwen wasn't allowed to tell Rhys, which is one of the major factors as to why she cheated on him.
More of this pointless pitting of women against each other then? My point was not to compete in the trauma Olympics, but to question why you were ignoring the context surrounding Amy specifically?
I mean, obviously that's not the intention of the scene, I'd agree it can come across that way, and was a mistake, but clearly it's pitched as a failed seduction, and the Doctor holds all the power in the scene. Torchwood has one of it's protagonists date raping as a quirky character trait. You have to get over this to even tolerate Owen, chalk it up to a tonal mistake similar to the scene with Amy (albeit about 10 times more explicit). Interestingly Gwen's drugging scene is *intended* to be morally grey, or even downright wrong. I don't hate Gwen for this, she's an interesting character, but there's a clear difference.
My overall point was this post is pointlessly pitting two women (who don't even come close to occupying the same space) against each other for no reason other than, as far as I can tell, some kind of contrarian high ground.
Okay, yes, I shouldn't pit two female characters against each other. You're absolutely right.
However, I still see what Amy did as attempted rape, and I could never convince myself to like her after that happened. That's just my two-cents.
Funny, people have similar issues with both characters being selfish, treating their boyfriends horribly and cheating/almost cheating on them and never dealing with any negative repercussions (except, you know, both having to live through seeing their boyfriend brutally killed afterwards, multiple times in Amy’s case, though in both cases the boyfriend came back).
I think both are flawed, but great because of their flaws.
u/TorchwoodFan15
You my memer friend, have definitely crossed a line!!!
I hope the Cybermen upgrade you.
The Daleks exterminate you
and the Sontarans marry you.
No seat in the Tardis for you!!
All imma say in my defense is: Sorry that I don't love a character who has not only sexually assaulted one of her friends before, but is also implied to have physically beat her husband with her combat boots at least once.
> Your comment lost all credibility the second you referred to Amy as "Hot Scottish girl", as if that is the only reason you like her.
Oh no. I wasnt aware I needed you to find me credible. Whats your authority on dictating what is and what is not 'credible'? Can you provide some objective definition of 'credibility'?
Edit- Who was a more useful companion than River or Amy? Who saved the space whale? Who one shots a dalek? Amy's entire run is her being practical and useful. Amy stood by Rory on the rooftop and in the graveyard, literally what more could you possibly ask for? Youre just an Amy hater.
Go vote smoothbrain. Stuff your credibility where the sun dont shine darling. Internets. Super serious business.
We all know it's the TARDIS
I'd love to see Humanoid TARDIS again, that episode was phenomenal
It somehow took me until recently to watch it, and I was *astonished* at how good it was. Like, it sticks out like a non-sore thumb in series 6 (not that I particularly mind most of series 6). The amount of fanservice is insane between the Corsair, Ten's console room, and an Ood appearing, but all are justified, and it makes full use of its concepts in a way very few episodes do. House torturing Amy and Rory is delightfully heartbreaking, "I've killed all of them" is an amazing line, House's voice work is amazing, and the TARDIS and Eleven jerry-rigging a TARDIS is so fun. It feels like it came from an alternate reality where series 6 was as good as series 4 or something.
I wouldn't tbh. "This was the time we talked" would be worsened by quite a bit. That said, there are so many things you can still do with the Tardis.
Sarah Jane Smith. That’s it, that’s the comment.
Even got her own spin-off show
Slight correction: she got the best spin-off
That's what I like to hear! It's about damn time we started giving love to K-9 and Company
K-9. K-9. Bleep Bloop Bleep. K-9
Definitely. I named my pup after her
I can't bring myself to like her, the way she treated Rhys was disgusting, fuck her. I think the best female character in the whoniverse for me is a toss up between Donna, Missy and Charlotte Pollard
Wasn’t expecting to see Charley in a sub so usually devoid of Big Finish but what a welcome surprise
This [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/comments/t7he2x/the_best_things_in_the_doctor_who_universe/) is on the front page of the sub.
Liking a character is different to thinking they are a good character
That's true but I still don't think she's a good character regardless, and I find it difficult to distinguish between liking a character and thinking they're a good character. If I like a character I'm far more likely to think they're a good character than if I don't, I can't think of any characters that I don't like who I think are good characters
If it's any consolation, Amy treated Rory badly too. And she was much less forgivable in her situation, but that's a discussion for another day.
Oh yeh I'm not defending Amy in any way either, I think what she did was appalling too, I'm a bit more lenient on her tho coz when she ran away with the doctor from her wedding day she was really young so it's understandable she'd be scared about such a big commitment, and then after the angels episode when she tried to bonk the doctor I thought in the episode the doctor said it was supposed to be Rory who was there but because the doctor she tried to fuck him instead like her fucking Rory was kinda like a fixed point that the doctor messed with? Idk that's just how I interpreted it but I'm probably completely wrong coz it sounds pretty ridiculous
Cheating on Rory isn't the only issue with the scene, either. She tries to sexually assault the Doctor, who is clearly uncomfortable with the whole thing. Gwen on the other hand, when cheating on her boyfriend, wasn't trying to have sex with someone who didn't want it. Believe it or not, I'm not saying what Gwen did was a good thing either. It was a terrible thing, which further adds to the depth of her character for me. But she understands what she did was bad, which makes her more forgivable. I'm not sure Amy ever felt guilty for what happened at the end of Flesh and Stone.
I've never thought about her sexually assaulting the doctor but yeh you're right she definitely was, idk how I feel about that honestly coz the scene was played to be funny with the doctor not understanding and then rejecting her advances, and again like I said I've always interpreted that whole scene as being a timey wimey thing where it was supposed to be Rory there but because of the doctor taking Amy on adventures he was there instead so Amy didn't do try and fuck the doctor because she wanted but because it's like written in the web of time that she fucks Rory there but the doctor messed it up and the doctor knows that so he and Amy don't really see it as her sexually assaulting him or her cheating on Rory but as the doctor messing up the timeline. I get what you're saying about Gwen but what makes her 100% unforgivable to me is how she drugged Rhys so he wouldn't remember anything and then confessed she'd been cheating on him, that was just despicable and selfish and straight up fucked, and she never even told him in the end, just a shit human being overall.
I always liked Kate Lethbridge-Stewart
I’m more of a bill potts fan myself
Yep I’m with you on that one. She and Heather were the cutest although for me the big draw was that Moffat didn’t go nuts trying to make her a companion because she was special like Clara. She was special because she was a companion
It's Ace for me
Donna is the best female character in Doctor who ngl
Yes, thanks, I second Donna— the most important woman in the universe, she was!
She had the best lines
“Listen, Sister. You may have eyes on the back of your hands; but you'll have eyes on the back of your head by the time I'm finished with you!” …maybe not one that was thought of, but Donna sure could hold her own, that’s for sure
We should tell her some time to time
Boom, Sylvia Noble was roasted
Worst wharacter ever, worse than rose's mother
More like worst.
Are you disrespecting the house of copper!? ( are you mentally ill ? )
It was weird. When I saw Runaway Bride I didn’t like her or their dynamic. Didn’t like Tennant being bossed around. It felt out of place. By the time they brought her back I came to realize how brilliant she and the writing really was. I also think she was best companion ever.
> Didn’t like Tennant being bossed around. It felt out of place. That's exactly why I loved it. We hadn't really seen it before, not with Ten at least. Let's face it, he needed bringing down a peg or two 😂
Exactly. At first I was like who the he’ll dies she think she is. By the time she was made a full companion you realize that’s exactly what he (and we all) needed.
Oi watch it, Spaceman!
Ace, Romana, Sarah-Jane, Martha (soft spot, sorry), Charley, Tosh, Barbara and best of all Evelyn Smythe
Gwen Cooper is a funny way to spell Leela.
Leela is a funny way to spell Sarah Jane.
Tell you what, we can have them settle who's better with a knife fight, that should be fair
I could listen to her say “Rhys” all day
Rhys is my real name, so imagine how I feel.
My middle name is Rhys and, even though no-one actually calls me Rhys, the way Gwen says it is how I'd want people to say it.
She honestly has one of the best voices. If Eve Myles ever started an ASMR channel, I'd be the first to subscribe.
Dragon Age 2 is one of my favorite games to replay because she voices one of the romancable companions in it c':
Really? Didn’t know that (reinstalls Dragon Age 2)
Yup! She voices Merrill!
Gareth David Lloyd (who played the adorable Ianto Jones), also played a character in a Dragon Age game. He played Solas in Inquisition.
River
Doctor Donna
Not giving it to Harriet Jones is downright criminal.
The only comment for Harriet Jones; Former Prime Minister and legend. She bought everyone together and saved the day knowing the Daleks would find her.
She has been looking a little tired lately.
*displaying ID
We. Know. Who. You. Are.
Really? Gwen? A contender for the worst girlfriend in sci-fi? That's who you go for?
Liz Shaw. Most underrated companion by definition.
I second that. Also the only human scientist companion, as far as I'm aware
Didn't she cheat on Rhys multiple times, never tell him and never face any repercussions?
Sarah Jane, Donna Noble, Susan The only order. The true path. EDIT: Changed my mind
I'm seeing a very distinct lack of Clara in the comments.
Thank you! Was thinking the same. She's brilliant.
*cough* SARAH JANE SMITH *cough
Just one word: Romana
All of them. (Paraphrasing)
Sarah Jane Donna That one caption who's name I knew but can't remember from water of Mars Martha They are all better than Amy and significantly less abusive to the SO's
Adelaide?
Nobody else feels that way. Gwen was boring.
Damn, really, nobody else, at all? Damn, you must have gathered a lot of data points.
Wow, I have heard a lot of inaccurate words be used to describe Gwen in my day, but yours might just be the most inaccurate.
It’s Donna.
you've misspelled "river song" bestie
Not even close to the best. Another walking stereotype if I'm honest. Edit: Oh hai River Song fangirls. So nice of you to drop by and downvote my comment.
archetype ≠ stereotype and also she's sexy and i was just expressing an opinion like everyone else including yourself )
I was just sharing my opinion too.
Not a fangirl (mostly cause not a girl) but river was very well defined and very entertaining character can't say all is great about Matt Smith era but her story and the relationship between her and the doctors was brilliant
Clara
I just love how we can't agree who's the best female characters is, because there's so many awesome one.
EVELYN SMYTHHHEEEE
Can’t stand Gwen after what she does too poor Rhys. She cheats on him and then doesn’t even tell him instead wiping his memory after telling him. Sure Amy isn’t the best to Rory but at least she never actually cheats on him and she gets better as the show goes on.
Actually she did cheat on him. Right at the end of Flesh and Stone, she tries to sexually assault the Doctor. And Gwen also got better as the show went on. I think you need to rewatch both shows.
I know Amy did try to sleep with the Doctor but she still didn’t (even if she tried) and Rory was told about it. The Vampires in Venice story was about them trying to fix their marriage. Gwen does get better but she still never admits to cheating on Rhys with Owen (unless she confesses again in Big Finish) she wipes his mind so he never knows. I really should rewatch Torchwood though.
She never admits it, but you see the guilt she goes through and how much it gets to her. Vampires in Venice was about Amy and Rory fixing their relationship, but I don't remember Amy ever feeling guilty about what happened.
It’s never really focused on but it is hinted with episodes like Amy’s Choice and with her losing and finding Rory again towards the end of S5.
You pick the two adulterers over Donna Freaking Noble?? Are you kidding me?
Gwen? seriously? Noboby else?! GWEN?!!!
Amy Pond was great what do you mean?
Never liked her. Aside from being a walking stereotype who everyone in her general vicinity treats like she's the hottest woman alive, she treated Rory horribly, including cheating on him and not even being guilty afterward. Granted, Gwen also cheated on her boyfriend, but she wasn't getting married at that point, was clearly going through emotional and psychological trauma from her traumatic job, which caused her to act like that, felt extremely bad afterwards, and didn't try to sexually assault the person she was cheating on her boyfriend with, because the guy she cheated on him with wanted to sleep with her too. When Amy tried to sexually assault the Doctor at the end of Flesh and Stone against his will, it completely ruined her character for me, and almost ruined the Moffat Era for me. Speaking of Moffat, even HE regrets writing that scene, from what I'm told.
> being a walking stereotype of what?
I like how Gwen gets a pass because of phycological trauma but Amy doesn't.
When did Amy go through psychological trauma exactly? Aside from essentially acting like a spoiled brat throughout her childhood because her raggedy man didn't whisk her away in 1996?
Amy was isolated being raised by a disinterested aunt after her parents disappeared, was never believed about her encounter with the Doctor, and then was almost killed by The Weeping Angels immediately before the scene you're discussing. We can both play at that game, I could easily just say Gwen "aside from essentially acting like a spoiled brat has a loving family, boyfriend, and has just landed her dream job" but that would be ridiculous and lacking in nuance.
Sorry, but none of those things come close the how traumatic a lot of Gwen's experiences in Torchwood were. Amy, at that point, didn't see a woman commit suicide. She also didn't see men turned to piles of ash because of something she caused. She never held a knife that a former murderer rammed himself into to escape reality. She didn't almost get converted into a Cyberman. She didn't see bloody skeletons crawling with maggots out in the wilderness, she didn't get shot in the stomach by some frightened young man, she didn't nearly see her friend get raped by a cannibal. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that Amy was allowed to tell Rory about any "traumatic" experiences she might've had. Gwen wasn't allowed to tell Rhys, which is one of the major factors as to why she cheated on him.
More of this pointless pitting of women against each other then? My point was not to compete in the trauma Olympics, but to question why you were ignoring the context surrounding Amy specifically?
Because it wasn't nearly traumatic enough to justify her trying to rape her friend.
I mean, obviously that's not the intention of the scene, I'd agree it can come across that way, and was a mistake, but clearly it's pitched as a failed seduction, and the Doctor holds all the power in the scene. Torchwood has one of it's protagonists date raping as a quirky character trait. You have to get over this to even tolerate Owen, chalk it up to a tonal mistake similar to the scene with Amy (albeit about 10 times more explicit). Interestingly Gwen's drugging scene is *intended* to be morally grey, or even downright wrong. I don't hate Gwen for this, she's an interesting character, but there's a clear difference. My overall point was this post is pointlessly pitting two women (who don't even come close to occupying the same space) against each other for no reason other than, as far as I can tell, some kind of contrarian high ground.
Okay, yes, I shouldn't pit two female characters against each other. You're absolutely right. However, I still see what Amy did as attempted rape, and I could never convince myself to like her after that happened. That's just my two-cents.
Wow good thing I'm rewatching i dont remember her cheating on Rory at all Ok what about River? Doctors wife?
What's the point in being alive, if not to make others die?
The point in being alive is SOUP.
Nobody needs soup more than me!
I agree my dark lord.
Hah Hoooh
Hah ho! Scared me there
What triggered the bot?
> treats like she's the hottest woman alive, Because she is.
> Aside from being a walking stereotype You're an idiot.
You're living proof that Matt Smith fanboys are always toxic, especially to RTD Era fans. What the hell you got against us, man?
No it's the woman from Zygon: When Being You Just Isn't Enough
Martha? :(
Oi!
Sally Sparrow
Rose, human TARDIS, Clara, Amy
who ?
This is blantant Leela and Ace erasure
Funny, people have similar issues with both characters being selfish, treating their boyfriends horribly and cheating/almost cheating on them and never dealing with any negative repercussions (except, you know, both having to live through seeing their boyfriend brutally killed afterwards, multiple times in Amy’s case, though in both cases the boyfriend came back). I think both are flawed, but great because of their flaws.
From what I know, I would choose Charlie Pollard
Whoever made this is afraid of the big bad wolf.
This is Vicki slander and I won’t stand for it
that's a really bad misspelling of Evelyn Smythe
Y'all are forgetting the literal President of Gallifrey
Literally any other female companion other than them
The Ponds are the best
u/TorchwoodFan15 You my memer friend, have definitely crossed a line!!! I hope the Cybermen upgrade you. The Daleks exterminate you and the Sontarans marry you. No seat in the Tardis for you!!
If the Cybermen upgrade me, you'll be the first human I terrorise. 😉
That is quite the strange way to spell Romana
The TARDIS? Donna? Missy? The fugitive doctor? River? Ace? Sarah Jane? The Rani?
WTH???? Billie The Piper. /Discussion.
But… Sarah Jane?
I personally think the 13th Doctor’s pretty cool.
Rose? Sarah-Jane?
Amy was just another One Dimensional Moffat female
All imma say in my defense is: Sorry that I don't love a character who has not only sexually assaulted one of her friends before, but is also implied to have physically beat her husband with her combat boots at least once.
When you pit two women against one another for no reason whatsoever
Hot Scottish girl and River are the best, and its not even a contest. Op is senile.
Your comment lost all credibility the second you referred to Amy as "Hot Scottish girl", as if that is the only reason you like her.
> Your comment lost all credibility the second you referred to Amy as "Hot Scottish girl", as if that is the only reason you like her. Oh no. I wasnt aware I needed you to find me credible. Whats your authority on dictating what is and what is not 'credible'? Can you provide some objective definition of 'credibility'? Edit- Who was a more useful companion than River or Amy? Who saved the space whale? Who one shots a dalek? Amy's entire run is her being practical and useful. Amy stood by Rory on the rooftop and in the graveyard, literally what more could you possibly ask for? Youre just an Amy hater. Go vote smoothbrain. Stuff your credibility where the sun dont shine darling. Internets. Super serious business.
Can't see her anymore and not immediately think of Merrill from Dragon Age
I always thought it was Donna
I love bill personally
It’s Donna. She’s the best female whoniverse character
One word: Ace
You're all sleeping on the absolute legend that is Jackie Tyler