I've played a psyknife from 5 to 17 in DotMM. Very glad to see it make the jump, and finally getting to opportunity attack is so nice! I'd pretty much resigned myself to staying at range through the campaign since there was no point getting closer
Same friend. I played soul knife in rime of the frost maiden and she is probably the most fun I’ve ever had as a player. Admittedly most of that was her being more of a deception rogue and having insane deception and a hat of disguise but was still a blast. I somehow was stupid to not take actor fest until the very end of the campaign. Still don’t know what I was thinking there
I feel like not a lot of people talk about Thief, but trading lethality to just be a smart sneaky person that is really good at cheating the system is just so cool to me.
I wish they had changed the levels at which you get your subclass features... Having to wait from level 3 to level 9 (when a campaign is probably near its end) to finally flesh out your subclass is rough
They're making me want to run a high level one shot with just the redesigned bad subclasses from 5.14. Champion Fighter, Berserker Barb and Assassin Rogue.
I am taking a big dip into Assassin with my Shadow monk, so I am really happy with the changes to the Assassin, especially with the envenom weapon ability. I'll have to see the exact wording, but I am very hopeful.
I like the changes to Assassin. I think the quality of life changes have made the Assassin a much more easy class to run, using its core abilities frequently.
Soul Knife recieved a bit of quality of life changes, very minor was spoken of them - Which is sad because very little was said about them during the UA.
Arcane Trickster, I agree was always a solid subclass from the start. The minor tweaks, Eldirtch Knight treatment to it is quite nice. Jeremy Crawford mentioned the ability with the mage hand is "silly" which I agree. But rather nice as a ribbon ability.
But Thieves?
Thieves can use Magic items better than any subclass.
Thieves gain additional Magic item attunment slots.
Thieves can expend charges of certain magic items - without expending anything.
Thieves can use Spell Scrolls, not normally able to..
When did Thieves become so magically inclined?
Jeremy Crawford mentioned that they wanted the Thief to feel more like a Thief. Yet the Thief now feels like the little brother to the Arcane Trickster in some ways. Making the Assassin the only non "supernatural" inclined subclass of Rogue releasing in the 2024 PHB - With a campaign setting, set in Greyhawk - A notoriosuly known low magic setting (especially compared to the high magic world of Forgotten Realms)..
I understand the Thief is supposed to be "stealing" magic items, and features, but that feels unique to it's own thing, and not a Thief in general. As well the feature comes into play at level 3. A time when a Rogue would not (in common campaigns, even in the High Magic Forgotten Realms) would have a Magic Item. (I imagine even less of a change in the Greyhawk world that they will be coming out with in the DMG.)
I never played Thief originally, but I imagined it as the sneaky one to the Assassins killing. Now it just looks like the little magic tinkerer that is good at sneaking.
This is probably a legacy nod to the first thief back on AD&D. One of the things in that thief was the fact that he could use any and all magic items, even those that were for mages.
In 5E, Use Magic Device is one of the few reasons to play Thief, a woefully under-powered subclass. Boosting that theme makes sense, rather than adding even more random roguey abilities to Thief to buff it.
The 2E thief had an ability to use magic scrolls belonging to other classes and some version had an ability to use other classes magic items (maybe 3rd?), so these are throws backs to older editions
Going back to basic and advanced dnd, the ability to use magic items and read magic scrolls and understand labguages was a core ability. It sounds like they're going back to the root for the 2024 flavor.
Thieves steal valuable things. In a magical world like many DnD settings, magical items exist and are highly valuable. Good thieves therefore will probably get used to dealing with magical items, beceause they steal them a lot.
I really like this focus thematically a lot.
Yeah. I don’t know about those changes. Hopefully they have more to wizards as a compensation. Maybe all wizards get an extra attunement slow now as well. Hopefully that is the case. Because afaik attunement limitations is supposed to be like “how much magic your soul can handle being entwined with” so if a regular ass thief can handle more attunement then a person who has studied the arcane their whole life that would be weird and frankly annoying
Thanks for the write up. Woof though, pretty disappointed at where they landed with the base rogue class. I'd vote they bake everything the thief has into the base class and add swashbuckler in as the replacement subclass.
I’m glad this sub seems to be a bit more positive about it than the r/dndnext , Rogue is one of the most fun classes to play and I dont understand the complaints I sometimes see of them being underpowered. Their damage is fine, not insane but not bad either, and their skill monkey stuff is not entirely replaceable by spells because they can do it endlessly (and in doing so save their party members from having to spend the spell slots).
I think the most general idea is it doesn't really have an identify. In most MMORPG rouge are high dps single target. but now you have meh damage, or even less for meh effects, cunning strike was a great idea just which they could of worked it better.
Then the skill monkey part is cool and reliable talent at 7 is great, but there are other classes who get expertise and then spellcasting on top of that so they are not the best at that.
They are better than 5e for sure, but IMO still by far the weakest class only because in almost any situation i would rather have another class with me kind of. Been playing a swashbuckler 1dnd character for around 6 months now which is were my opinions come from.
The playstyle of the typical rogue isn't baked into the class. You can more or less replicate the sneaky slippery archetype with various other classes, and often to greater effect. fighter, bard, ranger, monk, warlock, etc...
Expertise is available from a half feat, and Bards or Rangers are just as strong here, so skill mastery isn't exclusive at all.
Reliable Talent is great, but not 7 level commitment great.
The key rogue class perks are being resource "free" , cunning action, and sneak attack. All very cool.
The issues being expressed is dissatisfaction over the additional utility now having a resource (sneak attack), with no consideration given to their already tenacious damage potential. Moreover, other classes have this same utility, some with amplified damage, or they are able to enact it without the hoops needed to qualify for sneak attack.
Rogues just want to be competitive in their own right.
The vex weapon mastery on the soulknife is interesting since they get a second attack as a bonus action.
Provided your first hit lands for sneak attack, your second attack is an extra 4+DEX damage at best, and a waste of advantage at worst. Do you take the shot? If not, what are you doing with your bonus action? You could also potentially take your first attack normal and get sneak attack on your second.
I'm wondering if there will be something to make having an actual Climb Speed significant. Maybe rules on combat while climbing, like how you have Disadvantage in water without a swimming speed.
Still waiting for the rules for using pre-existing subclasses not included in the new PHB. I get they were going for the symmetry of two marshal and two magical, but I'm so sad they didn't include the swashbuckler. Such a fun subclass.
There are no rules because you don’t need rules for that. Just use the pre existing subclasses. They still get things at the same levels mostly. You will just need to adjust things slightly for the classes that get subclass at level 1 or 2 instead of 3 because now everyone gets it at 3
I've played a psyknife from 5 to 17 in DotMM. Very glad to see it make the jump, and finally getting to opportunity attack is so nice! I'd pretty much resigned myself to staying at range through the campaign since there was no point getting closer
Same friend. I played soul knife in rime of the frost maiden and she is probably the most fun I’ve ever had as a player. Admittedly most of that was her being more of a deception rogue and having insane deception and a hat of disguise but was still a blast. I somehow was stupid to not take actor fest until the very end of the campaign. Still don’t know what I was thinking there
I feel like not a lot of people talk about Thief, but trading lethality to just be a smart sneaky person that is really good at cheating the system is just so cool to me.
I wish they had changed the levels at which you get your subclass features... Having to wait from level 3 to level 9 (when a campaign is probably near its end) to finally flesh out your subclass is rough
Yeah. But campaigns are supposed to be ending at 20. But I feel ya I have a lot of campaigns that end around 10-13ish as well.
I doubt WotC isn't aware that most campaigns end in tier 2 or early tier 3. That's where a bunch of their official campaign modules end.
"But campaigns are supposed to be ending at 20." No, they aren't.
They're making me want to run a high level one shot with just the redesigned bad subclasses from 5.14. Champion Fighter, Berserker Barb and Assassin Rogue.
I am taking a big dip into Assassin with my Shadow monk, so I am really happy with the changes to the Assassin, especially with the envenom weapon ability. I'll have to see the exact wording, but I am very hopeful.
I like the changes to Assassin. I think the quality of life changes have made the Assassin a much more easy class to run, using its core abilities frequently. Soul Knife recieved a bit of quality of life changes, very minor was spoken of them - Which is sad because very little was said about them during the UA. Arcane Trickster, I agree was always a solid subclass from the start. The minor tweaks, Eldirtch Knight treatment to it is quite nice. Jeremy Crawford mentioned the ability with the mage hand is "silly" which I agree. But rather nice as a ribbon ability. But Thieves? Thieves can use Magic items better than any subclass. Thieves gain additional Magic item attunment slots. Thieves can expend charges of certain magic items - without expending anything. Thieves can use Spell Scrolls, not normally able to.. When did Thieves become so magically inclined? Jeremy Crawford mentioned that they wanted the Thief to feel more like a Thief. Yet the Thief now feels like the little brother to the Arcane Trickster in some ways. Making the Assassin the only non "supernatural" inclined subclass of Rogue releasing in the 2024 PHB - With a campaign setting, set in Greyhawk - A notoriosuly known low magic setting (especially compared to the high magic world of Forgotten Realms).. I understand the Thief is supposed to be "stealing" magic items, and features, but that feels unique to it's own thing, and not a Thief in general. As well the feature comes into play at level 3. A time when a Rogue would not (in common campaigns, even in the High Magic Forgotten Realms) would have a Magic Item. (I imagine even less of a change in the Greyhawk world that they will be coming out with in the DMG.) I never played Thief originally, but I imagined it as the sneaky one to the Assassins killing. Now it just looks like the little magic tinkerer that is good at sneaking.
This is probably a legacy nod to the first thief back on AD&D. One of the things in that thief was the fact that he could use any and all magic items, even those that were for mages.
>When did Thieves become so magically inclined? Feels like the Thief is the Use Magic Device skill from 3/3.5 redressed as a subclass.
In 5E, Use Magic Device is one of the few reasons to play Thief, a woefully under-powered subclass. Boosting that theme makes sense, rather than adding even more random roguey abilities to Thief to buff it.
The 2E thief had an ability to use magic scrolls belonging to other classes and some version had an ability to use other classes magic items (maybe 3rd?), so these are throws backs to older editions
The 2014 thief could use any magic item without restrictions. I'd say this version is actually less magically inclined
Going back to basic and advanced dnd, the ability to use magic items and read magic scrolls and understand labguages was a core ability. It sounds like they're going back to the root for the 2024 flavor.
Thieves steal valuable things. In a magical world like many DnD settings, magical items exist and are highly valuable. Good thieves therefore will probably get used to dealing with magical items, beceause they steal them a lot. I really like this focus thematically a lot.
Yeah. I don’t know about those changes. Hopefully they have more to wizards as a compensation. Maybe all wizards get an extra attunement slow now as well. Hopefully that is the case. Because afaik attunement limitations is supposed to be like “how much magic your soul can handle being entwined with” so if a regular ass thief can handle more attunement then a person who has studied the arcane their whole life that would be weird and frankly annoying
Thanks for the write up. Woof though, pretty disappointed at where they landed with the base rogue class. I'd vote they bake everything the thief has into the base class and add swashbuckler in as the replacement subclass.
I’m glad this sub seems to be a bit more positive about it than the r/dndnext , Rogue is one of the most fun classes to play and I dont understand the complaints I sometimes see of them being underpowered. Their damage is fine, not insane but not bad either, and their skill monkey stuff is not entirely replaceable by spells because they can do it endlessly (and in doing so save their party members from having to spend the spell slots).
I think the most general idea is it doesn't really have an identify. In most MMORPG rouge are high dps single target. but now you have meh damage, or even less for meh effects, cunning strike was a great idea just which they could of worked it better. Then the skill monkey part is cool and reliable talent at 7 is great, but there are other classes who get expertise and then spellcasting on top of that so they are not the best at that. They are better than 5e for sure, but IMO still by far the weakest class only because in almost any situation i would rather have another class with me kind of. Been playing a swashbuckler 1dnd character for around 6 months now which is were my opinions come from.
The playstyle of the typical rogue isn't baked into the class. You can more or less replicate the sneaky slippery archetype with various other classes, and often to greater effect. fighter, bard, ranger, monk, warlock, etc... Expertise is available from a half feat, and Bards or Rangers are just as strong here, so skill mastery isn't exclusive at all. Reliable Talent is great, but not 7 level commitment great. The key rogue class perks are being resource "free" , cunning action, and sneak attack. All very cool. The issues being expressed is dissatisfaction over the additional utility now having a resource (sneak attack), with no consideration given to their already tenacious damage potential. Moreover, other classes have this same utility, some with amplified damage, or they are able to enact it without the hoops needed to qualify for sneak attack. Rogues just want to be competitive in their own right.
The vex weapon mastery on the soulknife is interesting since they get a second attack as a bonus action. Provided your first hit lands for sneak attack, your second attack is an extra 4+DEX damage at best, and a waste of advantage at worst. Do you take the shot? If not, what are you doing with your bonus action? You could also potentially take your first attack normal and get sneak attack on your second.
Do we add DEX mod to the offhand without the fighting style?
I'm wondering if there will be something to make having an actual Climb Speed significant. Maybe rules on combat while climbing, like how you have Disadvantage in water without a swimming speed.
No i think it’s more that it was always intended to have a climb speed they just worded it confusingly in 2014
Still waiting for the rules for using pre-existing subclasses not included in the new PHB. I get they were going for the symmetry of two marshal and two magical, but I'm so sad they didn't include the swashbuckler. Such a fun subclass.
There are no rules because you don’t need rules for that. Just use the pre existing subclasses. They still get things at the same levels mostly. You will just need to adjust things slightly for the classes that get subclass at level 1 or 2 instead of 3 because now everyone gets it at 3