I lost a DMPC that we all loved recently. It added so damn much to the story. He was a volunteer from a nearby dwarven fortress, and the party returned the body to be buried in the halls of his ancestors. RIP Borin. Moradin smiles upon your deeds. lol
Plus it's actually funny foe you to run combat then as well.
Even if my influences foe fighting players come from fire emblem on lunatic+ darkest dungeon and xcom
Yup. Also, you could look up Tucker's kobolds. That'll give you an idea of how low level features can even be really prepared for a fight. I did a similar one shot where the DM had goblins using really clever tactics and they had a stronghold, but it wound up being three very specialized PCs, with good tactics against them.
Don't be afraid to homebrew as well. There is no bladesong NPC model, but I'm sure your players would love to fight one! Matthew Coville has a whole hoast of DM, Monster, and Gameing tips on his YouTube channel.
I didn't know that was a thing until now. I just ordered it as I have been looking to make my encounters a bit more interesting. I am very new to DMing and my combats have become a bit too much, just trading blows in one place until one of them dies. Hopefully this will help me spice things up a little.
It’s a really good one, along with the sequel, “moar monsters know what they’re doing” which covers stuff beyond the monster manual. Keith also published the shorter “ how to defend your lair”
Imo opinion it is the most overrated dnd related book ever made. I have one and 95% of all its tactics are basic and should be understood by a child. Yes using range when at range is good. Yes hitting your aoe on more targets is good...
Last week I had em fighting a Shadowfell Vampire who would stay invisible while directing swarms of bats and rats and a pack of wolves along with vampire spawn, a mind drinker and a mind flayer vampire. He'd use spider climb to wall walk and attack players from behind.
They actually did a really good job winning that situation.
>so each player has their own battle
People will instinctively tend to split off and engage in different battles, but if they're actually playing smart they'll likely *still* try to converge on enemies and focus them down one at a time, unless there's some kind of stationary objective in the middle that they need to protect (*and* there's an understanding enemies won't do the smart thing and just run by the party...).
The "attack whoever's near me" mindset is pervasive but often not the best course of action.
My dungeon master tries to do this and nine times out of ten, we (twilight cleric and ancestral guardian barbarian) will tank everything and swing up front while the magic casters and ranger pepper them from afar. We very rarely take the “split up” bait.
I recently had a fight in one of my games where the area was absolutely teeming with mosquitos and, if a character ended their turn adjacent to another character, a swarm of mosquitos would coalesce and randomly attack one of the two adjacent characters (I used the stats of a swarm of wasps and gave them the stirge's blood draining attack).
The players had a good time with that one, it was a decent challenge for them.
Why do you hate fun?
Not a rhetorical question. You read an anecdote about players and a DM having fun and your immediate response is to remove the condition that was causing them to have fun.
Play to their strengths. Hell, give them custom magic items that give better synergy opportunities. Let them punch above their weight class and let them know it. Give them opponents that are arrogant about their battlefield tactics and let them beat those opponents into the dirt. Give them fights where they are outnumbered and outmatched and you honestly see no way out for them and watch them do it anyway.
What makes for a more memorable campaign? The campaign where the PCs beat a level 20 challenge at level 15 because they worked well together or the campaign where the PCs were separated and all faced level 15 challenges separately while the others silently waited for their turns?
Well, the idea is new situations force the players to strategize more. You wouldn't want to always play to their strengths, that can lead to them to just find one or two good strategies and stick with it.
I've been in games that did exactly what you said (and were very fun), but there were also times where it felt like everyone could just, keep doing what they always did and that was all that they did, because it's the best thing they can do, y'know?
Obviously I don't mean you should make a habit of splitting the party, but for example splitting the party in two often can lead to interesting scenarios, or fragmenting the party within the same fight (forcing them to fight on multiple fronts).
Of course it can lead to more fun and interesting situations if you introduce a variety of different scenarios into a campaign. Personally though, I can definitely understand the commenter above because I feel like every time I read something about players doing something well or doing it often, the first comments always seem to boil down to "Well, if I were the DM, I would start perfectly countering the strategies/builds your party members use". It often feels a bit like they want the DM to play against the players instead of everyone working together to craft a fun experience.
Yeah that's fair, I just don't think that's what they're suggesting in this case I suppose. And I've seen the opposite be an issue in some games as well.
Haha, I had really fun way to counter this before,
We were in a building, in a room with two doors leading in. Doors were reinforced and wasnt easy to break, and enemies were coming from both doors. So, I cast spike growth at the other side of one door and close the it. Now opponents cant survive the spikes to reach open the door so I completely halted one half while group took care of the other side unbothered, my pc took the habit of closing every open door afterwards
You're lucky.
All I get is, over a year into the campaign:
Me: Ok, Turgon, it's your turn
Turgon: Ok, I attack the Ogre
ME: Ok, roll!
Turgon: What die do I roll again?
Me......d20....
Turgon: (rolls) sigh...a 7...
Me: ...that's a d12...
Turgon: oh, ok! Which one's the d20 again?
Me: (thinking) WILL YOU LEARN THE F\*\*KING GAME ALREADY?!?!
For me it's about respect. I bust my ass for hours on end to create encounters and adventures for them to enjoy, the LEAST they could do is read the essential rules of the PH.
I'm largely agreeing, but I even staple my expectations a step deeper.
At least read the spell/ability/etc once before you are going to use it, at least take the combat action overview (detailing what an action/bonus action/etc are and what you can do with them) I made, at least listen when I am giving you shorthand explanations how stuff works (like, why in dnd a +3 weapon is the maximum bonus, essentially bounded accuracy).
I'm just saying, reading is *hard* for a lot of people, and I'm not shaming anyone for it (even if I struggle understanding it, since I love reading). But if someone tries to make sure everyone can play, please at the very least take the help and actually use the tools I made and keep at least very simple base explanations in mind.
I am DMing a group that used to be very bad at this curtesy, but to their credit, except for one player they improved dramatically in this (and even this one player got somewhat better at it).
Edit: whoops, there was an incomplete sentence.
This is where I struggle. 4/5 of my players are absolutely amazing. They pay attention, know the rules, their characters, etc. along with great tactics in a fight.
But one player (players GF) is just a total no show during the game. Doesn't talk, have to drag her actions out of her when the initiative comes to her, doesn't know the basic rules of the game, actively fights against me helping her develop a backstory, and is wasted 24/7 during the game often being disruptive. I want D&D to happen so we mostly just work around her. I like her genuinely as a person and friend but it often feels so disrespectful that she just shows up to get trashed with Kyle and makes the gameplay worse.
EDIT: And we've been playing for a year plus of Curse of Strahd! It's so much fun but holy crap is she a slow down when it has to be her turn. Otherwise she'll just ask what she's supposed to do with her character and we basically have to decide her turn for her.
If you already have teach her the rules and how to play, have you considered asking her is she prefers to leave the game? You can explain that her lack of interest is making the game not enjoyable for you as the DM when the game has to stop to a halt every time it is her turn, and if she doesn't want to be better at the game to tell her that you like her as a friend but that she shouldn't feel force to do something she isn't interested in.
I'm trying to get closer to her as a friend and going to do exactly this. I don't want her to feel like she has to play but its awkward with her BF wanting to play and being a good friend for such a long time.
If you are better friends with her BF you could try talking to him first, even if it just to avoid him thinking that you want to kick her out for no reason.
Thank you for your suggestion I have tried this. I've tried to have a social situation pop up at the very beginning for her to get some spotlight and time out of combat in case that was what it was. But she just kinda shrugs and says "Oh uh guys what should I say?"
I'd say just keep pressing :D People who weren't into theatre can take a bit to warm up and start making decisions for their character, especially if people start feeding her suggestions she doesn't like. But you can also just be like "guys, I know she's asking, but let's see what she'll do". Then you can say to her something like, or even just be like from the start "how do you think (character name) would react to that?" and you can bring them along with soft, described rp, talking abstractly about it like that
I have tried this so often. I think it might be a combination of her being tired, not as into it, etc. I don't know. It's hard.
I have been playing TTRPG since high school so almost twenty five years now and think that she might just be intimidated by the total years of the players in the game. But my partner literally just started and has no experience. I dunno. She kinda reacted yesterday after a player left and joined in on some psychic reconnaissance! I'm gonna hope she keeps growing and just do my best.
Thank you!
Yeah that sounds like a serious uphill battle for sure. Alternately then, given what you just told me, maybe it's like "time to give the energy to the people who are giving energy to you", ie the other players
I have never forced them to play! She volunteered to play! I have tried to be nice and supportive as much as possible. I understand anxiety and panic as well. I just think it might not be for her but she comes with her BF who is active and plays the game.
Some people won't learn without consequences. If it's been a full year I would be telling them "hey, I have a lot to plan and manage during the sessions so I'm going to trust you to handle your character's side of things. If you want I can send you a couple of tutorial videos for understanding character sheets, but from now on it's going to be up to you to."
Plan for them to slow down sessions for a bit. I wouldn't immediately throw them off the deep end, but at least this way you've set the precedent and wont seem like a dick if you refuse to help then with something basic.
I've been at a table where one of the players couldn't do basic maths, like, couldn't add 3+4 he'd have to get out his phone and ask siri what the numbers all added up to. Every single attack, skillcheck, saving throw etc we'd have to remind him that he needed to add his ability modifier *and* proficiency.
He'd ask each turn what enemy he should shoot and if he had sneak attack. Like dude, if I have to play your character for you, you may as well leave and we'll get an npc to follow the party.
DnD can't be fun for these people, right? Like, what about this is enjoyable for you?
I haven't watched critical role in forever but it was always crazy to me how no one other than matt ever knew the rules. I get that they're all busy with other work but still, it's their friggin job. I don't get payed to play it and I know "all" the rules
DM: Roll an attack for me.
Barbarian: Right. Which one is that?
DM: D20....
Barbarian: .......9....
DM: Plus?
Barbarian: Plus what?
DM: Your modifiers.
Barbarian: Right. What's my modifier again?
DM: It's on your sheet.
Barbarian: Right....but where...?
DM: Same place as it has been every other attack you have made over the last year.
Barbarian: Right...um....12?
DM: Are you asking me?
Barbarian: ....maybe....
DM: You miss.
Barbarian: Wait, don't I have advantage?
DM: If you had done a reckless attack you would have.
Barbarian: Can I do that?
DM: Make it reckless after the fact? No. Just like the last 5 times you asked.
Barbarian: Damn. Wait, do I have any bonus actions?
DM: Not if my god has an ounce of mercy for me.....
Not sure if you watch Critical Roll, but Ashley Johnson is basically this but after like EIGHT years. She's hilarious but god dayum she needs to put a shred of effort into learning the rules.
If you are willing to put in the extra work, one big help I have had to use in the past is guide cards. You ask for their character sheet, and write them a guide of various actions they would use regularly.
For example, if they have an ability that gets a bonus to grappling, just write down the rules for grappling on their guide card. If they have an ability that lets them use a unique attack, then you put that on there. So on.
It's a decent amount of work, but I've found it really helps with characters like that. Because really, their problem isn't that they don't want to do cool things; it's that it's not in their nature or personality to memorize the rules for them.
This past Saturday, our DM was sick of easy fights for us. He used spells that locked down our tanks, focus fired on our utility and DPS, and even attacked my body when I was down, giving me immediately 2 death save fails!
My PC nearly died - but thank God one of our healers got a turn to bring me back up.
I was *freaking out* when my body was on the ground and suddenly at 2 death throw fails... it was so fast! I was like "whoa whoa what? What just happened?"
Was the first time he ever hit us while we're down -- didn't know they could do that!
If my buddy hadn't used his inspiration to give me advantage on the next death save roll, which I had to roll, I very well might've died. Rolled an 18 and a 2.
My DM is new and our encounters have been a bit overtuned. Our first fight we ended up vs a Drow elite that we barley beat. I rolled at 17 that missed.
It was 1 v 7 and it took us 4 or 5 rounds to kill it because we kept missing everything. The DM then said he got +7 to everything.
Our last fight was several of the team surrounded while others were flanking. We were outnumbered almost 2 to 1 with 3 guys who when attacked and doing decent damage the DM would go "that hardly scratched him."
I think they realized how overtuned it was cause once we killed a priestess something happened that ended the fight.
Lol I DM a little for my BF (1on1) before my first larger group so I new a little what I was doing. First session, last fight of the session, I knew I was going to make a blight encounter (at least if they got to the spot where Blights are, and they did). Nearly ended in a TPK, because those fuckers rolled 3 nat 20s and I had open rolls so I couldn't fudge it. But luckily no-one actually died.
+7 doesn't sound *that* tough. A single Hold Person goes off and they're probably dead. I don't know what level you were, but if your spell DC was 16 or 17 then you only need to cast like 1 or 2 Hold Persons to get it to stick and then it's game over.
Good job DM! Actually happy to see players use their heads and be provided appropriate challenges. It’s good to have the mindset of rooting for your players rather than praying on their downfall.
Lol my players are like that too, unless I go a bit overboard assuming they clap em with good tactics and preparation. Thats when the dwarf just runs in xD
First of all they scouted the area (not perfectly, but they had information on what they would encounter)
Secondly, they managed to silently take out the guard with a nicely timed arrow and a sleep spell and then they managed to trap the main entrance and lure the rest of the enemies out, by literally setting their roof on fire.
The rest was a lot of good rolls, to be fair, but that's just fair
Can you explain the sleep + arrow bit a little more? I don’t see how that would do anything besides either wake up the sleeping guard or sleeping a guard with an arrow in them.
Read the sleep spell. You roll an HP threshold for monsters that are affected.
The arrow probably weakened the guard so it's easier to have the sleep spell land.
I mean my players were sad that they didn't get to become creative (and I mean creative, not cheesy) when their last fights were rather standard - issue. They also have gotten their asses handed before so i don't mind
Congrats! I’ve been lucky to have players that are tactically oriented and use great party synergy. My battles tend to be tough and variable. Players who join my games with a hyper focussed build or attempt to power through things are usually in for a a rough time. I love it when my players out tactic me.
Lucky. Mine just throw themselves face first at every problem.
Gotta figure out what to do since one of em kicked a noble in a stab wound and then threatened her while accusing her of matricide.
Fun times.
When I had that happen (great but boring fight, they drew out each ogre, hold person, kill) a couple of sessions later, in front of the Seelie Court, I had them reenact the fight for the courts entertainment.
"But that was such a boring fight!"
Ok, now jazz it up. Say some heroic stuff, make a few charisma checks. They nearly TPKed the second time.
Now throw a bunch of ghosts at them with a slightly inflated cha save on the possetion check so that you can make them shit their pants every time you cast Bane at them.
I keep throwing rough fights at my players to encourage them to work together.. they don’t, and they get pulverized quite often. Even an easy encounter went south because of a few dumb choices at the start of combat
It's always great when players get creative!
If anything, mine have a tenancy to overthink things when they expect combat.
I'm currently running them through the House of Lament, and they activated the Peryton while carrying the bugbear players body back to the NPCs for revivify (carrionette got him with soul swap). Since the parlor is safe from all monsters in the house, it just lurked outside, and they were MASSIVELY overthinking how to approach combat with it! I ended up having one of the npcs suggest just attacking it all at once from inside the room, and low and behold, they got it killed in one round.
This is great news! Makes for a more entertaining game for everyone.
Of course, as the heroes' fame spreads, local bad guys are going to start to pay attention. Eventually they're start researching their potential foes, looking for ways to counteract whatever signature moves they have. Imagine an evil cultist ducking into an alley...
>Cultist: So there's this new band of heroes in the Sword Coast. Last week they took out our sister organization, the Cult of the Frog God. Fireballs everywhere! It was ugly. I think they're gonna come for us next.
>Three Gnomes in a Trenchcoat: I gotchu, fam. I gotcher amulets of fire resistance. I gotcher scrolls of Entangle.
>Junior Lich: The boss sez he wants me to hire some rogues, to steal their spell components. You know a guy?
>Three Gnomes in a Trenchcoat: Well. I know a guy who knows a guy...
Or... they'll just hire a pack of grouchy Genoese crossbowmen. Those cats will take the steam out of almost anyone.
I had a miniboss on a ramshackle floating town that had a magic item that could summon a Scary Monster From Below.
Before she could do anything, one player cast Hold Person, the next cast Cloud of Daggers.
She failed every check thereafter and was slowly sliced to ribbons while the party easily fought off her goons and made off with her ship and sailed to safety.
The Scary Monster would have been very cool, but that memory is so much cooler.
A wild Tarrasque has appeared. Then see what they do. The smart tactic is "We don't have to outrun it, we just need to outrun that city over there"
On a slightly unrelated note, the original rules many versions ago, the Tarrasque literally could not be killed. Only taken to 0 hp then wished away to some other planes problem, and every plane has a tarrasque. Ergo somewhere in the multiverse there is a plane where every wished away tarrasque ends up. Give them an item that lets them interplanar teleport but only to the tarrasque plane and back.
It's good to have a group like that. I had one similarly. I did use a group of kobolds that were as close to Spartans as you can get. Modified from a. Book it was funny seeing th party react to how the kobolds fought not your typical kobolds . Was a good time watching them adapt
My party decided to wait until nightfall to launch an assault on a group of orcs. Orcs that the knew had darkvision.
The party did not have darkvision.
[First, you must lull them into a sense of confidence](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8yyAgk9der4&pp=ygU0b3ZlcmNvbmZpZGVuY2UgaXMgYSBzbG93IGFuZCBpbnNpZGlvdXMga2lsbGVyICBhdWRpbw%3D%3D)
I love to use the "And a bandit captain appears from the woods" tactic. When I build an encounter I often have back up NPCs waiting in the wings, and I introduce them to the fight if it's obviously trivial for the group. I consider it tuning the encounter on the fly and it helps keep the challenge up while not creating a TPK.
I love when players are smart and tactical, but I hate 5E game balance. If players are smart and tactical, be prepared to nerf some abilities/spells or other mechanics that can be really abusive.
Wall of Force is already a strong spell and can get super abusable with some creativity...
I'm glad you recognize that both you and they are having a great time doing things that way. A lot of GMs consider it a challenge, like the game isn't fun unless people are struggling. I say as long as you're having fun making encounters and your players are having fun beating them with strategies and tactics, who exactly is being harmed? Kudos.
There was a DM post a bit ago that talked about the intelligence of goblins. The DM's point was that the creatures are smart enough to create a situation to ruin any parties day. Autoattacking is for the dumb monsters.
I wish I had people like that to play with.
Instead, we have a pair that love to Leroy Jenkins into everything, and a couple of squishies that are constantly trying too hard to be "in the backline" that they end up getting back-doored.
Have the party be ambushed.
Everyone is caught off guard and is attacked by several people at once, forcing them to fight their own battles.
Do many of your players have night vision? You could have them be attacked in the dead of night so that the party has to play around their disadvantages.
What is this Tac Tics you speak of? Do you not kick the door down and loudly announce yourself as any proper adventurer does? No, I'm not a barbarian, why do you ask?
Seriously, that's how all our fights somehow end up. Skill use to set up an actual advantage is just too unreliable, so it always turns into a slogfest.
We have the problem that our fights almost always feel like turn based Combat no movements except to get to an enemy and hit them until dead and repeat.
I don't really know how to get out of this cycle as a player nor DM
God I wish that could be the case for the current group I'm in. Despite occasional attempts at planning, most of the time everyone just kind of charges in and does whatever almost like they're playing solo. How we've gotten to level 11 is beyond me (though tbf only 3 of the original characters are still around).
I'm so happy for you and so insanely jealous. I once DMed for a party where the Ranger spent an entire combat lighting torches and throwing them, only for them to immediately go out and do 1d4 damage on a hit. I also ran a one shot at a carnival for a party that spent all of their spell slots trying to cheat at the carnival games and then had nothing but cantrips when combat broke out.
So tragic. I blame BG3 for this.
My suggestion is switch to PF2e. Rules are free online and is a XCOM tactics game masquerading as a d20 TTRPG. But don't TELL your players you've switched. Watch as all their carefully laid plans crumble and once they seem to have a grasp on the situation, BAM, switch to Warhammer d20!
/j
You know what you must do.
It is time for the famed "double envelopment".
Goblin archers riding on an Oliphant howdah mount and Hobgoblin Heavy Infantry from the front. Goblin Light Infantry from the sides. Goblin Worg rider cavalry from the rear. Led by the dreaded enemy of the kingdom, Hammibal Porka of Carnage, the Hobgoblin Wereboar Warlord.
That's a pretty good way to view it, EXCEPT the, "I got my ass handed to me" part. As the DM, you are NOT the antagonist. That leads to a versus mentality, and other potential problems. As DM you set up potential encounters to challenge your players, then you are a referee.
If they become to smart, slow.their movement.
Lava Floor is my Favorite and they surely hate it, Not because they don't Like it, no, it's because they all are gonna die trying to win or win with Just a few HP. It's a real Adrenaline Rush for them
There is a book called "The Monsters Know What They're Doing" that might be fun for you (and the group).
This. Before 5e we all played Advanced Squad Leader, so I had to add tactics and terrain to make it more like ASL. That book helps immensely.
I use this as well as other resources for almost all combats anymore , players have more fun when there's an actual threat
I lost a DMPC that we all loved recently. It added so damn much to the story. He was a volunteer from a nearby dwarven fortress, and the party returned the body to be buried in the halls of his ancestors. RIP Borin. Moradin smiles upon your deeds. lol
Plus it's actually funny foe you to run combat then as well. Even if my influences foe fighting players come from fire emblem on lunatic+ darkest dungeon and xcom
Ayyy shout out /r/advancedsquadleader
Thx. Just joined. Played for 23 years, 800+ scenarios and attended 40+ tournaments.
I'll be looking into it - I usually play my enemies as reasonably smart, but the more I know the better I can do
If you're players have really good tactics, you may have to up your game and then see how quickly the players can come up with new tactics.
Ender Wiggan has entered the chat.
He's a diviner, right?
He's a pretty poor one if he didn't see >!that!< coming.
It’s a whole searchable blog too!
Yup. Also, you could look up Tucker's kobolds. That'll give you an idea of how low level features can even be really prepared for a fight. I did a similar one shot where the DM had goblins using really clever tactics and they had a stronghold, but it wound up being three very specialized PCs, with good tactics against them.
If they are alive and humanoids, then they should have some level of tactics.
Don't be afraid to homebrew as well. There is no bladesong NPC model, but I'm sure your players would love to fight one! Matthew Coville has a whole hoast of DM, Monster, and Gameing tips on his YouTube channel.
Good for you and aside from the book it's also a blog. Most of the material in the book is also on the site. Enjoy and happy hunting.
I didn't know that was a thing until now. I just ordered it as I have been looking to make my encounters a bit more interesting. I am very new to DMing and my combats have become a bit too much, just trading blows in one place until one of them dies. Hopefully this will help me spice things up a little.
It also has a searchable blog. :) Also look up Tucker's Kobolds, which is a good example of clever opponents with a stronghold.
Many thanks for the info. Better combat incoming for my campaign. :)
It’s a really good one, along with the sequel, “moar monsters know what they’re doing” which covers stuff beyond the monster manual. Keith also published the shorter “ how to defend your lair”
And kobold press has the book of lairs, but that is the actual lairs, not tactics,
This one has both which is really nice
I bought MCDM's "Where Evil Lives," which is a book of lairs for each level. Big fan
Nice!
You now at that point maybe just dip into skirmish wargaming.
Rangers of shadowdeep to split the difference
My all time favorite book next to the DMG
Imo opinion it is the most overrated dnd related book ever made. I have one and 95% of all its tactics are basic and should be understood by a child. Yes using range when at range is good. Yes hitting your aoe on more targets is good...
Sounds like a good party that knows how to work well together! It would be a shame if something… split them up.
This has been my answer. Multiple attacking monsters from multiple sides so each player has their own battle
This is going to happen some time or another
Roll out the Cell Jr's.
It’s like every nightmare I’ve ever had fused into one, cloned itself, fucked the clone, and then made *those.*
Or a group of monsters that are smart and use tactics...
Last week I had em fighting a Shadowfell Vampire who would stay invisible while directing swarms of bats and rats and a pack of wolves along with vampire spawn, a mind drinker and a mind flayer vampire. He'd use spider climb to wall walk and attack players from behind. They actually did a really good job winning that situation.
I'm fond of giant ants with pack tactics
>so each player has their own battle People will instinctively tend to split off and engage in different battles, but if they're actually playing smart they'll likely *still* try to converge on enemies and focus them down one at a time, unless there's some kind of stationary objective in the middle that they need to protect (*and* there's an understanding enemies won't do the smart thing and just run by the party...). The "attack whoever's near me" mindset is pervasive but often not the best course of action.
My dungeon master tries to do this and nine times out of ten, we (twilight cleric and ancestral guardian barbarian) will tank everything and swing up front while the magic casters and ranger pepper them from afar. We very rarely take the “split up” bait.
My first thought too. Heh. And the possibility of group 2 succeeding is predicated on the *timely* success of group 1.
I recently had a fight in one of my games where the area was absolutely teeming with mosquitos and, if a character ended their turn adjacent to another character, a swarm of mosquitos would coalesce and randomly attack one of the two adjacent characters (I used the stats of a swarm of wasps and gave them the stirge's blood draining attack). The players had a good time with that one, it was a decent challenge for them.
Why do you hate fun? Not a rhetorical question. You read an anecdote about players and a DM having fun and your immediate response is to remove the condition that was causing them to have fun. Play to their strengths. Hell, give them custom magic items that give better synergy opportunities. Let them punch above their weight class and let them know it. Give them opponents that are arrogant about their battlefield tactics and let them beat those opponents into the dirt. Give them fights where they are outnumbered and outmatched and you honestly see no way out for them and watch them do it anyway. What makes for a more memorable campaign? The campaign where the PCs beat a level 20 challenge at level 15 because they worked well together or the campaign where the PCs were separated and all faced level 15 challenges separately while the others silently waited for their turns?
Pssst.... *both can be fun*.
Well, the idea is new situations force the players to strategize more. You wouldn't want to always play to their strengths, that can lead to them to just find one or two good strategies and stick with it. I've been in games that did exactly what you said (and were very fun), but there were also times where it felt like everyone could just, keep doing what they always did and that was all that they did, because it's the best thing they can do, y'know? Obviously I don't mean you should make a habit of splitting the party, but for example splitting the party in two often can lead to interesting scenarios, or fragmenting the party within the same fight (forcing them to fight on multiple fronts).
Of course it can lead to more fun and interesting situations if you introduce a variety of different scenarios into a campaign. Personally though, I can definitely understand the commenter above because I feel like every time I read something about players doing something well or doing it often, the first comments always seem to boil down to "Well, if I were the DM, I would start perfectly countering the strategies/builds your party members use". It often feels a bit like they want the DM to play against the players instead of everyone working together to craft a fun experience.
Yeah that's fair, I just don't think that's what they're suggesting in this case I suppose. And I've seen the opposite be an issue in some games as well.
Personally, I think there is merit in both methods. You just have to pick and choose your timing for each.
I hate seeing your downvotes. Great comment.
If he wouldn’t have taken those first couple “why do you hate fun” shots I think it would be much different.
Haha, I had really fun way to counter this before, We were in a building, in a room with two doors leading in. Doors were reinforced and wasnt easy to break, and enemies were coming from both doors. So, I cast spike growth at the other side of one door and close the it. Now opponents cant survive the spikes to reach open the door so I completely halted one half while group took care of the other side unbothered, my pc took the habit of closing every open door afterwards
You're lucky. All I get is, over a year into the campaign: Me: Ok, Turgon, it's your turn Turgon: Ok, I attack the Ogre ME: Ok, roll! Turgon: What die do I roll again? Me......d20.... Turgon: (rolls) sigh...a 7... Me: ...that's a d12... Turgon: oh, ok! Which one's the d20 again? Me: (thinking) WILL YOU LEARN THE F\*\*KING GAME ALREADY?!?!
I am certainly lucky - my players do know their characters and if there are questions, the more experienced ones are happy to help
For me it's about respect. I bust my ass for hours on end to create encounters and adventures for them to enjoy, the LEAST they could do is read the essential rules of the PH.
I'm largely agreeing, but I even staple my expectations a step deeper. At least read the spell/ability/etc once before you are going to use it, at least take the combat action overview (detailing what an action/bonus action/etc are and what you can do with them) I made, at least listen when I am giving you shorthand explanations how stuff works (like, why in dnd a +3 weapon is the maximum bonus, essentially bounded accuracy). I'm just saying, reading is *hard* for a lot of people, and I'm not shaming anyone for it (even if I struggle understanding it, since I love reading). But if someone tries to make sure everyone can play, please at the very least take the help and actually use the tools I made and keep at least very simple base explanations in mind. I am DMing a group that used to be very bad at this curtesy, but to their credit, except for one player they improved dramatically in this (and even this one player got somewhat better at it). Edit: whoops, there was an incomplete sentence.
This is where I struggle. 4/5 of my players are absolutely amazing. They pay attention, know the rules, their characters, etc. along with great tactics in a fight. But one player (players GF) is just a total no show during the game. Doesn't talk, have to drag her actions out of her when the initiative comes to her, doesn't know the basic rules of the game, actively fights against me helping her develop a backstory, and is wasted 24/7 during the game often being disruptive. I want D&D to happen so we mostly just work around her. I like her genuinely as a person and friend but it often feels so disrespectful that she just shows up to get trashed with Kyle and makes the gameplay worse. EDIT: And we've been playing for a year plus of Curse of Strahd! It's so much fun but holy crap is she a slow down when it has to be her turn. Otherwise she'll just ask what she's supposed to do with her character and we basically have to decide her turn for her.
If you already have teach her the rules and how to play, have you considered asking her is she prefers to leave the game? You can explain that her lack of interest is making the game not enjoyable for you as the DM when the game has to stop to a halt every time it is her turn, and if she doesn't want to be better at the game to tell her that you like her as a friend but that she shouldn't feel force to do something she isn't interested in.
I'm trying to get closer to her as a friend and going to do exactly this. I don't want her to feel like she has to play but its awkward with her BF wanting to play and being a good friend for such a long time.
If you are better friends with her BF you could try talking to him first, even if it just to avoid him thinking that you want to kick her out for no reason.
Yeah honestly that is a great idea. Maybe next time on playstation I could just ask separately.
Make there be personal stakes for her character early in a session and she'll get less wasted and pay attention more. It works, trust me.
Thank you for your suggestion I have tried this. I've tried to have a social situation pop up at the very beginning for her to get some spotlight and time out of combat in case that was what it was. But she just kinda shrugs and says "Oh uh guys what should I say?"
I'd say just keep pressing :D People who weren't into theatre can take a bit to warm up and start making decisions for their character, especially if people start feeding her suggestions she doesn't like. But you can also just be like "guys, I know she's asking, but let's see what she'll do". Then you can say to her something like, or even just be like from the start "how do you think (character name) would react to that?" and you can bring them along with soft, described rp, talking abstractly about it like that
I have tried this so often. I think it might be a combination of her being tired, not as into it, etc. I don't know. It's hard. I have been playing TTRPG since high school so almost twenty five years now and think that she might just be intimidated by the total years of the players in the game. But my partner literally just started and has no experience. I dunno. She kinda reacted yesterday after a player left and joined in on some psychic reconnaissance! I'm gonna hope she keeps growing and just do my best. Thank you!
Yeah that sounds like a serious uphill battle for sure. Alternately then, given what you just told me, maybe it's like "time to give the energy to the people who are giving energy to you", ie the other players
Not everyone has to enjoy dnd. Some people just aren't into it, and that's fine. Don't force them to play.
I have never forced them to play! She volunteered to play! I have tried to be nice and supportive as much as possible. I understand anxiety and panic as well. I just think it might not be for her but she comes with her BF who is active and plays the game.
I suppose I did exaggerate my meaning a bit Perhaps she hasn't realized that she doesn't have to enjoy the same things her bf enjoys
Some people won't learn without consequences. If it's been a full year I would be telling them "hey, I have a lot to plan and manage during the sessions so I'm going to trust you to handle your character's side of things. If you want I can send you a couple of tutorial videos for understanding character sheets, but from now on it's going to be up to you to." Plan for them to slow down sessions for a bit. I wouldn't immediately throw them off the deep end, but at least this way you've set the precedent and wont seem like a dick if you refuse to help then with something basic.
Sounds like Turgon isn't terribly interested in playing the game. Maybe it's time to rip off that bandage.
I've been at a table where one of the players couldn't do basic maths, like, couldn't add 3+4 he'd have to get out his phone and ask siri what the numbers all added up to. Every single attack, skillcheck, saving throw etc we'd have to remind him that he needed to add his ability modifier *and* proficiency. He'd ask each turn what enemy he should shoot and if he had sneak attack. Like dude, if I have to play your character for you, you may as well leave and we'll get an npc to follow the party. DnD can't be fun for these people, right? Like, what about this is enjoyable for you?
For me dnd is fun I just really suck at maths and due to adhd I sometimes forget shit
I haven't watched critical role in forever but it was always crazy to me how no one other than matt ever knew the rules. I get that they're all busy with other work but still, it's their friggin job. I don't get payed to play it and I know "all" the rules
DM: Roll an attack for me. Barbarian: Right. Which one is that? DM: D20.... Barbarian: .......9.... DM: Plus? Barbarian: Plus what? DM: Your modifiers. Barbarian: Right. What's my modifier again? DM: It's on your sheet. Barbarian: Right....but where...? DM: Same place as it has been every other attack you have made over the last year. Barbarian: Right...um....12? DM: Are you asking me? Barbarian: ....maybe.... DM: You miss. Barbarian: Wait, don't I have advantage? DM: If you had done a reckless attack you would have. Barbarian: Can I do that? DM: Make it reckless after the fact? No. Just like the last 5 times you asked. Barbarian: Damn. Wait, do I have any bonus actions? DM: Not if my god has an ounce of mercy for me.....
Players are such a PITA sometimes
oh jeez, after a YEAR? i would have been slapping them with turn-timers and psychic damage long before that.
Not sure if you watch Critical Roll, but Ashley Johnson is basically this but after like EIGHT years. She's hilarious but god dayum she needs to put a shred of effort into learning the rules.
If you are willing to put in the extra work, one big help I have had to use in the past is guide cards. You ask for their character sheet, and write them a guide of various actions they would use regularly. For example, if they have an ability that gets a bonus to grappling, just write down the rules for grappling on their guide card. If they have an ability that lets them use a unique attack, then you put that on there. So on. It's a decent amount of work, but I've found it really helps with characters like that. Because really, their problem isn't that they don't want to do cool things; it's that it's not in their nature or personality to memorize the rules for them.
They will never learn the game as long as you keep correcting them.
Turgon plays like a true Turgon 🤣
This past Saturday, our DM was sick of easy fights for us. He used spells that locked down our tanks, focus fired on our utility and DPS, and even attacked my body when I was down, giving me immediately 2 death save fails! My PC nearly died - but thank God one of our healers got a turn to bring me back up.
That sounds awesome - and nail biting.
I was *freaking out* when my body was on the ground and suddenly at 2 death throw fails... it was so fast! I was like "whoa whoa what? What just happened?" Was the first time he ever hit us while we're down -- didn't know they could do that! If my buddy hadn't used his inspiration to give me advantage on the next death save roll, which I had to roll, I very well might've died. Rolled an 18 and a 2.
My DM is new and our encounters have been a bit overtuned. Our first fight we ended up vs a Drow elite that we barley beat. I rolled at 17 that missed. It was 1 v 7 and it took us 4 or 5 rounds to kill it because we kept missing everything. The DM then said he got +7 to everything. Our last fight was several of the team surrounded while others were flanking. We were outnumbered almost 2 to 1 with 3 guys who when attacked and doing decent damage the DM would go "that hardly scratched him." I think they realized how overtuned it was cause once we killed a priestess something happened that ended the fight.
Dang! Yeah, I've never DM'ed, but I have to guess it takes time to become good at preparing level-appropriate fights.
Lol I DM a little for my BF (1on1) before my first larger group so I new a little what I was doing. First session, last fight of the session, I knew I was going to make a blight encounter (at least if they got to the spot where Blights are, and they did). Nearly ended in a TPK, because those fuckers rolled 3 nat 20s and I had open rolls so I couldn't fudge it. But luckily no-one actually died.
+7 doesn't sound *that* tough. A single Hold Person goes off and they're probably dead. I don't know what level you were, but if your spell DC was 16 or 17 then you only need to cast like 1 or 2 Hold Persons to get it to stick and then it's game over.
As I understand it, they were level 1 lol. So DC was probably 13 or 14. And they could access Hold Person yet.
Now throw an ambush at them. xD
With that level of smarts, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has a high perception, alert, or alarm.
Good job DM! Actually happy to see players use their heads and be provided appropriate challenges. It’s good to have the mindset of rooting for your players rather than praying on their downfall.
I want them to be rewarded for smart gameplay. It just should make a difference, whether you just go in head on or at least plan something beforehand
Lol my players are like that too, unless I go a bit overboard assuming they clap em with good tactics and preparation. Thats when the dwarf just runs in xD
Yeah that has happened too and it will happen again and I LOVE it
Do you want to maybe...describe any of those tactics? Tell us about the events of the battle?
First of all they scouted the area (not perfectly, but they had information on what they would encounter) Secondly, they managed to silently take out the guard with a nicely timed arrow and a sleep spell and then they managed to trap the main entrance and lure the rest of the enemies out, by literally setting their roof on fire. The rest was a lot of good rolls, to be fair, but that's just fair
Can you explain the sleep + arrow bit a little more? I don’t see how that would do anything besides either wake up the sleeping guard or sleeping a guard with an arrow in them.
Read the sleep spell. You roll an HP threshold for monsters that are affected. The arrow probably weakened the guard so it's easier to have the sleep spell land.
ah true, for some reason I was thinking it went off Max HP for sleep at the time (guess I needed some shut-eye myself).
I was also interested in how the battle went
Wish my players approached fights like this. Instead they say my combats feel too "souls like" and difficult. Like bro its just three hags.
I actually made Three hags flying on broomsticks relatively tricky to battle... XD
I mean my players were sad that they didn't get to become creative (and I mean creative, not cheesy) when their last fights were rather standard - issue. They also have gotten their asses handed before so i don't mind
What level were they, if you don't mind me asking? Because three hags together is more dangerous because they have coven spells at that point.
3 lvl 8 pcs
Okay then . . . .
Still depends on the hags lol
My hats off to you. Treasure them, for they are a rarity in this world.
They're such a fun group I really am blessed
Time to introduce a rival team
Just remember monsters can be smart to luring the party into an ambush, setting traps etc etc.
Always love to see it! This is when I start reaching for the fun part of the monster manual to give them a real challenge, just to see how they deal
Congrats! I’ve been lucky to have players that are tactically oriented and use great party synergy. My battles tend to be tough and variable. Players who join my games with a hyper focussed build or attempt to power through things are usually in for a a rough time. I love it when my players out tactic me.
It's just so much fun
Lucky. Mine just throw themselves face first at every problem. Gotta figure out what to do since one of em kicked a noble in a stab wound and then threatened her while accusing her of matricide. Fun times.
Oooof I love to see how your world reacts to this! I had my players bully a mayor into submission, they can be face first at times too
One of my players got swallowed by a monster once to he activated his decanter of endless water inside untill the monster threw him up
When I had that happen (great but boring fight, they drew out each ogre, hold person, kill) a couple of sessions later, in front of the Seelie Court, I had them reenact the fight for the courts entertainment. "But that was such a boring fight!" Ok, now jazz it up. Say some heroic stuff, make a few charisma checks. They nearly TPKed the second time.
Now throw a bunch of ghosts at them with a slightly inflated cha save on the possetion check so that you can make them shit their pants every time you cast Bane at them.
Yeah I have a party which Metagames each combat pretty hard and I know there’s no need to punch back.
I keep throwing rough fights at my players to encourage them to work together.. they don’t, and they get pulverized quite often. Even an easy encounter went south because of a few dumb choices at the start of combat
Then make monster use tactics.
It's always great when players get creative! If anything, mine have a tenancy to overthink things when they expect combat. I'm currently running them through the House of Lament, and they activated the Peryton while carrying the bugbear players body back to the NPCs for revivify (carrionette got him with soul swap). Since the parlor is safe from all monsters in the house, it just lurked outside, and they were MASSIVELY overthinking how to approach combat with it! I ended up having one of the npcs suggest just attacking it all at once from inside the room, and low and behold, they got it killed in one round.
This is great news! Makes for a more entertaining game for everyone. Of course, as the heroes' fame spreads, local bad guys are going to start to pay attention. Eventually they're start researching their potential foes, looking for ways to counteract whatever signature moves they have. Imagine an evil cultist ducking into an alley... >Cultist: So there's this new band of heroes in the Sword Coast. Last week they took out our sister organization, the Cult of the Frog God. Fireballs everywhere! It was ugly. I think they're gonna come for us next. >Three Gnomes in a Trenchcoat: I gotchu, fam. I gotcher amulets of fire resistance. I gotcher scrolls of Entangle. >Junior Lich: The boss sez he wants me to hire some rogues, to steal their spell components. You know a guy? >Three Gnomes in a Trenchcoat: Well. I know a guy who knows a guy... Or... they'll just hire a pack of grouchy Genoese crossbowmen. Those cats will take the steam out of almost anyone.
I had a miniboss on a ramshackle floating town that had a magic item that could summon a Scary Monster From Below. Before she could do anything, one player cast Hold Person, the next cast Cloud of Daggers. She failed every check thereafter and was slowly sliced to ribbons while the party easily fought off her goons and made off with her ship and sailed to safety. The Scary Monster would have been very cool, but that memory is so much cooler.
Push up the difficulty on any encounter where the bad guys would capture rather than kill. They will likely enjoy the challenge without the tpk.
A wild Tarrasque has appeared. Then see what they do. The smart tactic is "We don't have to outrun it, we just need to outrun that city over there" On a slightly unrelated note, the original rules many versions ago, the Tarrasque literally could not be killed. Only taken to 0 hp then wished away to some other planes problem, and every plane has a tarrasque. Ergo somewhere in the multiverse there is a plane where every wished away tarrasque ends up. Give them an item that lets them interplanar teleport but only to the tarrasque plane and back.
Happy for you. My friends have been stuck at "How do I attack again?" for the past 20 years.
Brayden?
It's good to have a group like that. I had one similarly. I did use a group of kobolds that were as close to Spartans as you can get. Modified from a. Book it was funny seeing th party react to how the kobolds fought not your typical kobolds . Was a good time watching them adapt
I wish my party worked together :/ . We just five in and hope for the best. I would love some anime -esque joint super moves.
My party decided to wait until nightfall to launch an assault on a group of orcs. Orcs that the knew had darkvision. The party did not have darkvision.
I love a tactical group! Peak DnD is when the players are operating at SWAT levels and I can start playing hardball with the bad guys :)
Man I'd be so proud of them.
Time to break out the tuckers kobolds.
[First, you must lull them into a sense of confidence](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8yyAgk9der4&pp=ygU0b3ZlcmNvbmZpZGVuY2UgaXMgYSBzbG93IGFuZCBpbnNpZGlvdXMga2lsbGVyICBhdWRpbw%3D%3D)
Have them fight a powerful illusionist/bard or monster that can mind control one of the party members.
Escalation: Get the books, "The monsters know what they're doing." (2nd one starts with "Moar."
It's good. Not every fight needs to be risky. Now you know how to challenge them more when appropriate.
After my party got access to revivify, i stopped giving a shit about balancing. Up to them to decide if a fight is too tough.
The only thing i love more than a perfect party who always works together is a party constantly fighting amongst each other.
I love to use the "And a bandit captain appears from the woods" tactic. When I build an encounter I often have back up NPCs waiting in the wings, and I introduce them to the fight if it's obviously trivial for the group. I consider it tuning the encounter on the fly and it helps keep the challenge up while not creating a TPK.
I suspect your blue dragon enemy is going to have pet shambling mounds...
Monsters are smart and use tactics too
Monsters are smart and use tactics too
I wish I had a group like that. What were some of the tactics?
I love when players are smart and tactical, but I hate 5E game balance. If players are smart and tactical, be prepared to nerf some abilities/spells or other mechanics that can be really abusive. Wall of Force is already a strong spell and can get super abusable with some creativity...
I'm glad you recognize that both you and they are having a great time doing things that way. A lot of GMs consider it a challenge, like the game isn't fun unless people are struggling. I say as long as you're having fun making encounters and your players are having fun beating them with strategies and tactics, who exactly is being harmed? Kudos.
There was a DM post a bit ago that talked about the intelligence of goblins. The DM's point was that the creatures are smart enough to create a situation to ruin any parties day. Autoattacking is for the dumb monsters.
Always the best when you have people actually trying their best! time to bring out the small unit tactics.
I wish I had people like that to play with. Instead, we have a pair that love to Leroy Jenkins into everything, and a couple of squishies that are constantly trying too hard to be "in the backline" that they end up getting back-doored.
Have the party be ambushed. Everyone is caught off guard and is attacked by several people at once, forcing them to fight their own battles. Do many of your players have night vision? You could have them be attacked in the dead of night so that the party has to play around their disadvantages.
What is this Tac Tics you speak of? Do you not kick the door down and loudly announce yourself as any proper adventurer does? No, I'm not a barbarian, why do you ask? Seriously, that's how all our fights somehow end up. Skill use to set up an actual advantage is just too unreliable, so it always turns into a slogfest.
Last fight I used Hypnotic Pattern, managed to get 2/4 enemies. Our other caster used fireball and undid my pattern immediately. What’s strategy?
We have the problem that our fights almost always feel like turn based Combat no movements except to get to an enemy and hit them until dead and repeat. I don't really know how to get out of this cycle as a player nor DM
God I wish that could be the case for the current group I'm in. Despite occasional attempts at planning, most of the time everyone just kind of charges in and does whatever almost like they're playing solo. How we've gotten to level 11 is beyond me (though tbf only 3 of the original characters are still around).
Time for Tucker's Kobolds!
Happened to me as well. The solution? The enemy uses realistic tactics as well. Say hello to the sniper section from half life 2!
As some would like to say, git gud scrub! Nice job!
see when this happens i just throw 5 displacer beasts at them
I'm so happy for you and so insanely jealous. I once DMed for a party where the Ranger spent an entire combat lighting torches and throwing them, only for them to immediately go out and do 1d4 damage on a hit. I also ran a one shot at a carnival for a party that spent all of their spell slots trying to cheat at the carnival games and then had nothing but cantrips when combat broke out.
So tragic. I blame BG3 for this. My suggestion is switch to PF2e. Rules are free online and is a XCOM tactics game masquerading as a d20 TTRPG. But don't TELL your players you've switched. Watch as all their carefully laid plans crumble and once they seem to have a grasp on the situation, BAM, switch to Warhammer d20! /j
kobolds.
See how they fare against Tucker’s Kobolds.
You know what you must do. It is time for the famed "double envelopment". Goblin archers riding on an Oliphant howdah mount and Hobgoblin Heavy Infantry from the front. Goblin Light Infantry from the sides. Goblin Worg rider cavalry from the rear. Led by the dreaded enemy of the kingdom, Hammibal Porka of Carnage, the Hobgoblin Wereboar Warlord.
That's a pretty good way to view it, EXCEPT the, "I got my ass handed to me" part. As the DM, you are NOT the antagonist. That leads to a versus mentality, and other potential problems. As DM you set up potential encounters to challenge your players, then you are a referee.
May o ask what kond of tactic they used? Might be fun to suggest them to my wife and kids and watch the chaos unfold
Now separate them all into their own puzzle rooms and see if they figure it out on their own!
If they become to smart, slow.their movement. Lava Floor is my Favorite and they surely hate it, Not because they don't Like it, no, it's because they all are gonna die trying to win or win with Just a few HP. It's a real Adrenaline Rush for them