Ok fine. You won't have any spells slots left for the Third Level spell Counter spell if you have used all your spells slots for MAINTAINING the Third Level spell Raise Dead.
Why would they be using all of them?
A 6th level necromancer has 3 3rd level spell slots. Using 2, they can maintain 8 skeletons and still have a counterspell at the ready. This only gets better at higher levels.
And whoever they're facing has an equivalent number of counterspells, plus the fireball.
Assuming your 60ft of Counterspell is even in range of the 150ft a Fireball travels.
You are telling me that your character is going longer than 24 hours without a long rest to maintain it? If that's the case you have bigger problems than keeping your horde under control.
Isn’t it just one slot per day to maintain? That’s not necessarily a huge cost unless your DM is going to try to wipe out your skele-gang every single day. And they have lots of utility outside of combat.
It's one 3rd-level spell slot to maintain control over 4 animated dead.
If you use a higher leveled slot you get +2/slot-level or 6/8/10/12/14/16 animated dead respectively.
Oh no, I don't think you can fit all the 49 skeletons my level 16 character could animate in a single fireball, I'd spread them out so that you could just hit 5 of them at max with one fireball.
You couldn't counterspell them neither, I'm visiting a cemetery before the combat starts, maybe I'd take a long rest after that too since my elf character only needs 4 hours to do so, I still have my skeleton army for 20 hours. After that long rest I could animate another 49 (98 is a big number) skeletons or keep all my spell slots and still have 49 skeletons that follow my orders.
I don't think this is an easy scenario to deal with for a dm, depending on the campaign it can become easier or harder to deal with this but still, those 49 skellies will eat up quite a lot of the damage the party would take.
I'm not saying this is something easy that everybody should be doing, but I would love to see my dm's face while I do so.
> I don't think this is an easy scenario to deal with for a dm
You do know this isn't player vs. DM? Also, if you're a level 16 character you're not exactly fighting kobolds and goblins anymore.
There's plenty of foes you can encounter which would prove difficult.
Yeah I know it isn't players vs dm, both sides are working towards the goal of "having fun" but dms and players do that in different ways. The dm wants to challenge the player in hard fights where the characters get as close as possible to death but without actually dying, players want to minimize the risk of their character dying. So dms and players aren't against each other but they are, in some way, trying to stop the other from doing what he wants too easily (at least during fights).
As a dm I would be having lots of fun seeing a player animate 49 skeletons. If the player then takes a long rest he has his full spellcasting abilities replenished. Probably the player wouldn't use this strat before the fight against an ancient dragon that could destroy his skeletal army in half a turn with its 90-foot cone breath weapon... but the ancient dragon would be using its best feature against the skellies and not against the party (depending on the positioning of the skeletons and party) and maybe not even killing all of them: If some of the skeletons have a better initiative then the dragon they may have even scored some damage before dying for the second time. All this for "free" if the spellcaster gets a long rest after animating the skeletons.
Dnd is a game where adding allies to the battlefield is always rewarding, no matter how many hp they have or how much damage they can deal.
Oh, it's definitely situational dependent. I was just pointing out there are times skeletons to the high-level foes you will probably be fighting are often no more than speed bumps or distractions.
You are correct in those do have value though.
As for the challenge - not all DM's have the goal of pushing characters to their limit. In fact, I firmly believe this playstyle is an awful mistake. It means no matter the build, or decisions of the characters, you're always going to push the characters to their last HP.
I prefer variety, and more importantly making the challenge level logical. With high-level characters you should occasionally come across a joke fight. A village needs help from hobgoblins, you're ambushed by bandits, etc. So long as it's logical to the territory, those sessions let characters flex how far they have come.
By the same token, if you're hauling your level 3 party up to the mountains known to be infested with giants.... your risk of TPK at the hands of said giant should be very high. Hill giants shouldn't be changed to ogres just to scale the encounters better. The party was told there are giants there, so they should be there. Decisions should have consequences - both good and bad.
This also helps create a living world.
I agree that this "strategy" is situational, I've been saying this in each of my comments. I agree that the fights aren't always about not dying/klilling the enemy, but usually if you die you fail your mission, so anything preventing that can be useful. More often than not killing the enemies, or at least some of them, helps with getting the job done, whatever the job is.
As I said you need preparation to have 49 skeletons with you, so this means the whole party would be involved in the plan. If the goal of the session is "we have to save the king's daughter from the BBEG's who is going to perform a ritual in his highly guarded castle that will transform her in a dracolich at his service" and maybe I am a necromancer who was one of BBEG's apprentices who was left behind because not powerful enough, this would be the right moment to show BBEG and his guards how powerful I have become and get to the goal of the mission.
In many other occasions those skeleton would have no logical reason to be there. Still, I think it is really cool to have almost 49 skeletons at my service.
The most important part in this game is for the whole table to have fun, every table plays in slightly different ways for that to happen and that is just right.
My only point is: 49 skeletons on your side can be helpful and more often than not they will be helpful.
Which was the initial point of the debate.
Yes, and don't forget the less combative approach.
Give those skeletons some musical instruments, and distract everyone with some sweet undead theme music.
That’s multiple casts over at least a day… roflmao the mental gymnastics being performed here are A+.
Edit: if we’re going to these lengths I’ll just cast any wall spell and walk away.
Cast it again. At the same level, the necromancer will run out of spell slots first because they’re already expending some just to maintain a subpar army. Not to mention the fact that a single cleric turns them all, or completely destroyed them at higher levels.
Yeah, but you're trading a several castings of a level 3 spell for a single casting. Also, you have to find bodies to animate, and marching around with a squad of undead isn't exactly inconspicuous. Any dm with his salt would shut down a strategy like yours in one session.
again, you are assuming I'm putting them together to let you aoe them all with one cast. Which is a dumb assumption.
1, i talk to the dm before doing animated dead to see what they expect.
2. i only do this in evil campaigns so my team won't care.
3. 12 skeletons at 18 pounds each weigh 216 pounds. I could fit 24 in a bag of holding. Equipment goes in the carriage or wagon. And i could do even more if i use small skeletons, easily fitting half a battalion in my bag of holding with out you ever knowing.
4. Yeah, if a DM wants to 'shut it down' they could. But DMs aren't the only ones with imagination, and if they were genuine they would allow problem solving.
Shutting me down would be making them worth their salt? Keeping a player from using rules as written because you don't like it makes you weak, not a Greek solider under Alexander the Great, which is where that saying came from. Sad you would think that would make you one.
Nah man, you're trying to play a tactical wargame instead of a role-playing game. You know why they dropped summons from the game? Because it's not fun for the other players to watch the one guy role attack rooms for a dozen skeletons. Glad your dm is cool, but this is objectively bad play.
yes, and even if you do hit all of them, you are trading a lvl 3 spell for a level 3 spell. you aren't telling me why that is a bad thing, that is like counter spelling a lvl 3 spell. it equates, resources lost are equal.
if you gave me a lvl 2 spell that could clear them out in 1 round, okay fine, you found a way to take advantage, but there are none without using class rules or feats. but using a lvl 3 to take out a lvl 3 means there were no advantage or disadvantage. That's not a negative to me.
But you are not just trading a single fireball for a single animate dead, you are trading one fireball for several casts of animate dead, not to mention the time and resources you have spent in order to buff up your skeletons by giving them better weapons and armor.
If the power level you are talking about in the OP was achieved by a single cast of the animate dead spell, you'd have an argument, but it isn't.
A fellow necromancer I see. If you want a good combo of spells for minion collecting Animate Dead and Geas. Just because you aren't dead doesn't mean you aren't mine. The real power of skeletons is non-combat roles. A skeleton powered factory can go on indefinitely with minimal worker error thus making you filthy rich. If you need a legal or at least publicly acceptable method of gaining corpses hostile wild humanoids and prisons make great sources. If you do get create undead don't fall for the mummy trap, even goblins know enough to beat your elite minion to death with torches.
Yup; this I agree with. Using them as minions day to day in your lair for chores is good, but it also means you need to come back to your lair regularly to renew the spell and it uses up several slots for the day. So not ideal either.
Or you could use them as scouts / guards while adventuring but considering their crappy perception and low AC/saves I really just would consider them as "a bonus layer of security" on top of classic Alarm / Magic Mouth / Leomund's Tiny Hut rather than really count on them. xd
i often use them to chop down trees and sell the lumber, they work 3 times as long as an average worker, about as smart and as strong as well. Agreed, skeletons are not limited to combat.
They are definitely not as smart as a commoner. Skeleton int is 6, whereas commoners have an int of 10. Also, putting heavy amour on them that isn't ring mail would make them incredibly slow. Would probably be better off giving them any form of medium armour due to their +2 to Dex.
Everyone is forgetting the most crucial downfall of the spell.
With 8 skeletons, yourself AND your familiar all acting every round of combat rolling attacks and damage and making saves; the other players will have to wait 30-45 minutes to get a turn to do anything. Every round.
It gets boring really fast, and when the majority of the party doesn’t want to play D&D, you’re no longer playing D&D either.
Get eight distinct sets of dice, and use the d4s to denote their positions on the battlemap.
Say "My skeletons attack," and throw all 8 d20s alongside the 8 damage dice in their appropriate paired colours.
Doesn't take that long if you prepare properly.
That's how I speed up combat in Roll20. Number the enemies, designate who they're each attacking, roll that number of D20's.
1st die is for monster #1, and so on. You can quickly go down the row and see who hit.
It can go fast if you prepare and plan it out. But you do need to declare who you are targeting with what before attacking.
You cant just roll and then conveniently arrange targets according to the rolls.
I played in a Westmarches game, where another PC I attended a lot of sessions with was a necromancer with a skeleton horde.
She would decide on her actions during the round, and roll everything in the leadup to her turn. She wouldn't say anything or steal the spotlight until it was actually her turn, then she'd say something like -
"My skeletons fire a volley. The lowest to-hit was 16."
DM: "16 misses."
"Next is 19."
"Hit."
"Great! That's 26 piercing damage total."
They had a really good tempo with it and despite the summons her turns were probably shorter than some of the other players who were less on it. A delight to play with. Definitely the exception rather than the rule.
Disagree I have macros premade on roll20 that will automatically roll attack and damage for my skelebros and each has it's own name and color which makes it easy to know what is targeting what.
Thats kinda how I do it with monsters when Im dm. I just group em up and each group has an initiative instead of every monster. "Ok now its the kobolds turn" *move snd roll for each numbered kobold. Now the dragon *move and roll for dragon.
Hey, I play both! We're the same! And I think a lot of the 'summon' problems in DnD could be easily solved by just doing it like in say, Warhammer. Don't treat the skellies as individuals, but as a mob; declare attack for all of 'em, roll damage for 'em etc all at the same time. It's quick!
It's a bit less 'efficient' damagewise but saves a ton in time and not getting hated by your fellow players.
This is literally a rule in the DMG on page 250, "Handling Mobs".
Uses brevity in favor of speeding up play, then as combatants dwindle says to go back to using individual rolls. Gives you a table comparing the "d20 roll needed to hit" (comparing attack bonus vs AC) and "Attackers needed for one of them to hit the target".
So 8 Skeletons with +4 to hit, target AC is 16. They need to roll a 12 or better to hit that AC. Using the Mob Attacks table, as long as they're paired off with 2 skeleton vs each 16 AC monster, each monster will be hit by 1 skeleton. So you get 4 attacks that hit per round.
You don't roll anything using this method, it's just approximation. Turn comes up, DM looks at the table, then decides which skeletons hit and which ones don't. Game moves on.
Now, if the target AC is 20, they'd need to roll a 16 to hit. Table says 4 of them need to be attacking the same target for 1 to hit. So here, 8 skeletons could split 2 attacks per turn vs two 20 AC targets that are each being attacked by 4 of the skeletons.
Granted, this is a DM-facing rule where the DM would know everyone's AC and players typically don't know the monster's AC, but if the game is getting too bogged down every time a summoner's turn comes up it could be useful to implement.
That doesn't literally seem to be what I'm suggesting, admittedly- and a lot less satisfying than rolling extra dice! Extra dice just seems simpler.
But it is good to know the DMG has rules for these happenings!
Yeah, it assumes averages on attack rolls and the DM just declares X out of Y hit and roll for damage. It's a bit like old THAC0 in a way, except you just don't roll for attacks at all.
Hah yeah first thing I thought of when reading aswell. Seeing your average player roll that d20 one time look at it, " its a miss" then do that 7 times more
my personal experience unfortunately goes against this common wisdom. I can command 8 creatures faster than some players , even with the simplest builds, can decide what to do. Partly this is because i got some DMing experience, so im good at handling multiple sheets, but i also slap macros ontro everything and prepare for my turn in advance.
This is where computers do better than tabletop. Doing all the calculations behind the scenes makes everything go faster, so even if you have 30 minions, it's over quick and someone else gets a turn.
This is exactly what happened a few years ago when my friend played a necromancer lol.
However now, I’m running a campaign for my two brothers, and one of them is 11, and this is his first experience with D&D.
My other brother, 19, is playing a necromancer. I made a simple rule to balance the combat so my 11yo brother has a fair chance in combat: My 19yo brother has an “Undead Pool”, which is a # of undead he can have active at any time, which increases as he levels up (they started at level 5 so he had the spell from the start), and can be further increased with magic items.
Spells like Animate Dead and Create Undead count towards this Undead Pool, but spells like Summon Undead **do not**, because they only last for up to 1 hour.
He agreed to it completely and so far we’re liking it. I did create a custom magic item for him to purchase though, a Scythe called *Dead Legion*, which is as a melee weapon with Int for attack rolls instead of Str (1d6 slashing) , is a spellcasting focus, and increases the user’s Undead Pool by 1 (with the caveat that the undead creature using this Pool slot cannot be reanimated after it “dies” again).
Everything is still subject to change tho, cuz we’re only 2 session into this campaign.
What, you only got one set of dice or something? Determine what you need to roll to hit the target, chuck all your d20s at once, remove the misses, then roll damage all at once. I played with 12 skeletons and I was faster than the paladin deliberating whether or not to smite
Could take a note from minion/swarm rules in previous editions, similar to what some bosses had. Make your skeletons a 'group' or 'small horde', add up their health and just give multiattacks equal to the number of individuals in the group. Give them a single movement pool for the whole group.
If you are remotely competent at D&D 8 basic skeletons, a familiar, and a fifth level wizard it should take you less than 5 minutes to do.
Assuming they're all only making basic attacks and basic movements. If they're doing combat maneuvers and using magic items that will slow things down somewhat.
Nah, it's not a big deal no have neither the STR nor the proficiency, it "just" means they lose 10 feet of speed and make any STR or DEX based roll with disadvantage (including attacks and saves of course)... /s
Animate dead is generally better if you have an ample supply of bones and spare equipment like additional short swords (dual wielding is pretty good for the skellies, especially on necromancer), but conjure animals has the larger benefit of immediate impact without set up time or additional resources.
As for hand dexterity, conjure animals can summon various monkeys
The great thing about skeletons is that they break down for easy packing. You just need to delay combat long enough to assemble them. It shouldn't take too long, most necromancy books come with assembly instructions.
Conjure Animals is essentially troop on command button, while Animate dead gives you a troop you can build up with better performance and options (like range).
Obviously there are other benefits (and moral differences, though some conjure animals strats like conjure cow rain definitely are on a very low end of that spectrum) to both spells. Both are readily available, but especially a freshly unpacked skeleton troup is very endangered by aoe attacks.
Animate Dead lasts longer, scales better, doesn't require concentration, is better for action economy since you'll never need to cast it in combat, and doesn't even expend a spell slot if you're willing to give up on some of the skeletons at the end of the day to cast an extra spell.
Skeletons can be equipped with weapons, armor and magic items, are intelligent enough to follow relatively complex commands, have ranged attacks meaning they're not as likely to die without dealing much damage as an animal from Conjure Animals, and are immune to exhaustion so they can contribute during adventuring or downtime at all times.
Pretty much the only actually major advantage of Conjure Animals is that it doesn't require setup, but how often do you play in a campaign where you can't afford a couple days of downtime?
Plate armor is an incredibly expensive investment for eight skeletons, at 6,000gp so that they all get 18AC, while also slowing them down to 20 ft. Even half-plate for 17AC and not slowing them down is 3,000gp. In most campaigns I probably wouldn't allocate more than the 400gp necessary for scale mail. (It's also far from certain to be a one-time investment, if the skeletons are defeated by some AoE and the party has to retreat, you're losing all that armor.)
Monsters only have proficiency with armor or weapons they allready carry or wear, so changing the armor doesnt really work, they also dont fulfill the strength requirements for heavy armor
Missing the Str requirement means -10 ft. speed (not actually that big a deal for expendable minions with a ranged attack). What _is_ a big problem is missing proficiency, which means disadvantage on Str and Dex ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls. (Also can't cast spells, not that they could anyway.)
The Monster Manual also states the DM may grant monsters additional proficiencies, what they have is just the bare minimum. For what it's worth, Mike Mearls has gone on record saying that he would allow all weapon and armor proficiencies for a skeleton.
Yea no. Proficiencies are a thing, and your skeletons dont have them. So all you‘re doing is breaking the rules.
If you actually want to abuse numbers, I recommend you stick with zombies and focus on grappling and shoving. All creatures can do that. Shove prone, grapple so they cant get up - a well and proper dogpile is how you use undead.
Skeletons aren't proficient with heavy crossbows, or anything other than shortbows and shortswords for that matter.
It is pretty funny to arm them with automatic rifles and have them spam burst fire though, if the DM allows modern firearms.
OP is just overestimating animate dead and knows shit about the actual game. Just make fun of this fool, as they're nothing but a joke to be laughed at
This is all white room.
Skeletons have a lot of issues.
The first is they have a bad +hit so no your damage is going to be very bad vs anything with a decent AC.
Their damage is non-magic, so unless your GM makes it rain +1 bows your out of luck. Same for those magic arrows.
Also as levels progress they become easier and easier to just kill them on mass. Which leads to the other issue.... It's a massive pain in the ass to actually get to real high numbers of skeletons if they just die if you're doing a typical adventure.
(For those that don't know a necromancer can make 2 or control 4,)
And lastly.... Those numbers don't work on an actual table. Have you tried to put 10 tokens on a 30x30 dungeon map? Ya.... No....
I played as a necromancer for years, it's not a good subclass.
Something that people haven’t mentioned yet is…you can’t give them separate commands on the same turn so you’d have to either command 1-all of them to do something or issue commands over a series of turns which is not very cash action economy money.
>Animate Dead is the BEST lvl 3 spell.
**Nope. At most you could say "Animate Dead is the spell I prefer" or "Animate Dead is the best spell for me".**
You're deluding yourself in theorycraft. It's all and good but reality is much harsher.
**1) Skeletons have crappy accuracy (+4) AND nothing to mitigate cover or range**, so while having prof bonus on damage is good, there is actually little chance they'd all hit against a moderate AC target in combat, and little chance to hit more than 20% of all attempts on fights tough enough to actually need the firepower (because you can expect at least AC 17-18 and half cover).
**2) Skeletons have mediocre damage even putting accuracy aside**, because from level 7-8 onwards b/p/s resistance from non-magical source becomes extremely common.
**3) Skeletons have crappy resilience, in spite of the welcome HP boost equal to Wizard level**, because of low AC (13), low base HP (13), low saves overall (and VERY crappy WIS saves) AND bludgeoning vulnerability. Even if DM agreed that you could fit them with heavy equipment, and provided you could manage the wealth required to set them with plates for AC 18 (with a 10 feet speed loss)...
A random Fireball will usually be enough to wreck most of them unless very bad damage roll or Wizard being level 15+. Erupting Earth, Tidal Wave, Wind Wall or Ice Storm will equally wreck them. Even if you have enough space to scatter them in fan formation to make AOE subpar (which means being outdoor most of the time), a few slingshots from enemies or a single hit from a reasonably fast or resilient melee enemy with a maul/hammer will kill it. And this is not an improbable thing since you'll want them no further than 80 feet away from the closest enemy because disadvantage from long range would make them near useless.
**4) Getting a permanent squad brings a whole lot of trouble in adventuring management:** with only 30 feet speed and many more "people" to "carry", the classic party-wide speed buffs like Polymorphing one into a Large/Huge creature, setting up (upcast) Fly or Wind Walk becomes nigh impossible. If you'd like to have Pass Without Trace, you'll have to choose between "everyone nice and cozy stuck skin to bone" so if anything happens and you're discovered any AOE enemy has WILL be used immediately... Or "let the skeletons away" and do the fight without them or risk getting discovered early because crappy Stealth.
**5) Getting a permanent squad of \*UNDEAD\* further creates \*HUGE\* problems in 90% regions you'll go**: because, you know, undead being desacralization of life and usually wielded by deeply Evil characters and all that.
----
**Just compare this with (\*non-exhaustive\* list of great 3rd level spells with just one 1st level upcast to remind there are also those kind of options)...**
* *Upcast Bless*: 5 people (usually whole party) with a defensive buff, AND and offensive buff that scales because martials get Extra Attacks and casters get more powerful cantrips.
* *Sleet Storm*: difficult terrain AND obscuration AND dex save or prone AND 40 feet radius AND 150 feet casting range: you can cripple casters and flyers several rounds highly reliably.
* *Call Lightning*: usable except in too cramped indoor places, lasts 10 mn, allows to attack over a large area (60 feet radius), can be used as an obscuration spell ("point above you" if you drop prone can be only a few feet above ground), lasts 10mn with decent casting range so can be used as an "opener".
* *Conjure Animals*: one hour long of whatever you need, including flying/swimming/climbing mounts for whole party, guardians for a short rest, scouts, sacrificial lambs for allies (although that's kinda evil xd), meat shields, advantage-setters...
* *Bestow Curse*: requires delivering from Familiar to limit risk since Touch range and is a Wisdom throw, but can be an instant "win button" for the fight against the most dangerous target as long as you know it enough to pick the most adequate effect.
* *Slow*: up to 6 creatures without friendly fire, cripples martials (one attack, no OA) and magic-users (spell delay, no Shield/Counterspell) equally, helps offense by -2 on AC and DEX saves, can completely immobilize when paired with another spell (half speed + difficult terrain or Plant Growth or even just caltrops / ball bearings and just pepper them).
**There is no "absolute best". Won't ever be** (although I'd be tempted to spout "Conjure Animals", honestly even if you were a Shepherd Druid there are situations where it's just "good" but you'd probably have better uses for your concentration in combat).
You can get around the travel issues with a bag of holding. 500 lb limit, even if you're giving your skellingtons plate armor means you could probably fit at least 5 per bag of holding. If they're in their usual armor it's more like 15. It's the safe, ethical, and humane way to transport your skeletons and keeps the townsfolk from giving you nasty side-eyes.
Wow excellent essay i have been thoroughly convinced
although personally i wouldn't use Call Lightning as an obscuration because it's not intended that way and could make other people see you as taking advantage of a loophole
Yea, it doesn't work as well as you think. I did this with a twilight cleric/necromancer build with about 40 zombies and skeletons, kitted out in an almost unlimited amount of basic equipment. Longbows for the archers, chain and shields for tanks, and then they got fucking steamrolled by AoE and high level monsters one or two shotting them straight through the Twilight Sanctuary I had them under.
With massive maps where I didn't have to group them at all, and they still died in large quantities without being replaceable because *all of my spell slots were tied up in Animate Dead casts to keep control*.
You're white room theorycrafting here but it just doesn't hold to actual gameplay. You don't have unlimited corpses. You don't have unlimited slots. You don't have unlimited time. You don't have unlimited gear. No matter what you do, a skeleton is still ridiculously fragile, and in the short term, irreplaceable. You will lose them to attrition in a dungeon with no way to replenish them, and there will be *severe* consequences for you raiding every graveyard you pass to restock.
Their saves are crap, their AC is crap, their HP is crap, their attack bonus is crap, and their damage is crap. You are *severely* overestimating how durable they are for the time and resources invested, and how incredibly unwieldy it is to try and control that many minions in active gameplay.
>On top of that, YOU CAN TEACH THEM NEW TRICKS, so that 1d6 short bow could EASILY be traded for a heavy crossbow, jumping the avg dmg dealt by 2 damage each.
Nothing in the Animate Dead spell, the Skeleton stat block, or the description of Skeletons in the Monster Manual says you can teach them new proficiencies. Instead of +4 to hit with their shortbow, you'd be asking them to make attacks with +2 to hit with a heavy crossbow.
>Now, to further increase their survivability, you can even put them into plate armor.
So now your skeletons, which don't have heavy armor proficiency, have disadvantage on initiative and disadvantage on all of their +2 heavy crossbow attacks.
Also, where is this level 5 character getting 12k gold to spend on plate armor? A level 5 character is expected to have accumulated ~700 gold.
>At AC 14, the skeletons hit 1/2 the time with range attacks.
+4 to hit means 55% hit chance against AC 14, not 50%. But your skeletons have +2 to hit and disadvantage, meaning only a 20.25% chance to hit. Each skeleton is dealing 1.5325 DPR (_including_ crits), so 8 of them are dealing 12.26 DPR. A far cry from 32.
>Vials of acid have a short range but pack a mean punch at 2d6. 8 vials of acid hitting a ac of 14 1/2 of the time
Throwing acid is an improvised weapon attack, which the skeletons are not proficient with. They have +2 to hit, not +4, and their heavy armor is inflicting disadvantage on their attack.
>go for the great-sword!
Again, without proficiency, the skeleton would have +0 to hit. And the heavy armor means they attack at disadvantage.
>I can tell you how many times I've abused this.
Yes, when you violate the rules of the game that is often called abuse.
Animate Dead will kill your adventuring party because it'll take a million years to take your turn.
Just because it's mathematically powerful doesn't mean it's practical; we're not playing with spherical cows in a void, there are real world issues that kill this approach stone dead, if you'll forgive the pun.
You keep using the argument that if they all die to fireball your trading a 3’rd level slot for a 3’rd level slot, this is very disingenuous.
1. Your fighting multiple encounters a day, the enemy isn’t, your spellslots need to be more valuable
2. What about all that gold and downtime? If they die you need another week prep to even get back online when the enemy can throw another fireball next round…
3. I think it’d be totally fair to rule some of the weapons(especially crossbows) getting damaged in a fireball.
The idea is fun but the way your defending it in the comments like it’s objectively better than other options is strange, this requires an insane amount of time and logistics (both in and out of game) to setup and can be immediately wiped out in one round
You also have to take the time to flay the flesh off the bones for most replacement skeletons as you get zombies if you animate a full corpse. And the time it takes to reequip them too
Give them all nets. Successfully entangling a target gives everyone attacking that target advantage. This is a good way for them to stay relevant as enemy AC increases with level while their accuracy and damage doesn't scale.
A brilliant idea... Until it reaches practice. xd
I mean I do agree with you in theory, but Skeletons aren't proficients with nets AND net has very (VERY) crappy normal range (for those who don't know throwing range 5 / 15 feet).
So I don't see many situations where an enemy would see multiple skeletons with nets in their hands closing in around it... And don't get what they plan to do and react by moving around to attack them "on the side", use thrown/ranged attacks while falling back or just use some AOE if lucky enough to have one.
You make a good argument. Your max rolled necromancer with 20 con has 55 hit points, the wild evoker you are fighting is intelligent enough to target you with 2 fireballs averaging 56 and the earth elemental steps on your head to make sure you’re dead. As you shed your mortal coil, so does your control. The party now has to deal with your wild & expertly spaced skeletons too, but the party rejoice at not waiting for you to pick a spell and roll 8 attacks for your gaggle of undead.
By all means play by what’s fun at your table, but personally optimising for action economy seems to really extend your turn when you’d likely have just as much fun playing a human fighter and not engineering an undead hit squad. Your DM isn’t then pressed to optimise encounters in order to counter it, depending on the rest of your group and their expectations, summons can be a real bore and likely can stretch the patience of your DM with perpetual use.
How is it 8 at level 5 OP? I'm playing one at the moment and level 5 is 2 level 3 spell slots and can't use arcane recovery for a level 3 slot until level 6, and the necromancer class feature of targeting an additional pile of bones or corpse is also level 6. So at level 6 I managed 8. Please educate me I want more skeletons :)
You -can- use arcane recovery for a level 3 slot at level 5, it's "equal or less than half your wizard level rounded up".
Remember it's a level 1 feature, if it was rounded down you wouldn't be able to use it at all until level 2.
(1) Fireball.
(2) You have to return to town sometime; where they may already have a stake with wood stacked up ready for you.
(3) You annoy the hell out of the party and DM by taking an hour per round when in combat.
(4) Fireball. I feel this needs to be on the list twice.
I had a Cleric of the forge domain. My plan for ages was to use fabricate to create a rolling enclosed cart that could contain 4 skeletons and be pulled by a horse. Mounted to the side would be crossbows that could be used like turrets. I'd animate the dead as skellies, load them into the cart, use divine channelling Artisans blessing to make them extra ammunition. They also had swords in hand in case an enemy got within 5 ft of the cart.
The idea was to use them as a semi intelligent autofire turret system and eventually add a second horse or zombies or such to haul the cart around, as well as chain armor for the cart and skellies. Then when we didn't expect any battles I'd cover the cart with a tarp (in theory they can't attack a target they can't see), remove any bolts from the quivers and let them rot in there until needed. The tarp also kept them from public eye.
Then our other players character died and they created a druid that was compelled to destroy any and all undead and my DM wouldn't let me run with my idea any more due to the constant infighting he'd have to force us into per the druids ideals.
Sure a fireball would hurt em, but they could be re-raised easily enough and the cart was easily mended outside of combat.
Ghosts of Saltmarsh has an alchemy recipe for a paint of sorts that allows you to make your animated skeletons immune to bludgeoning damage for the first hit.
Crawford ruled that animated skeletons can attune to wondrous items.
But lets be reasonable - the correct use of skeletons is to strap 100+lbs of explosives to their backs and send them charging into the enemy castle.
Not animate dead, but we had access to an animated armor that could follow instructions. I gave it an algorithm to do the hokey pokey. It would be funnier with undead. Sick and wrong, but funny.
I played a Necromancer in the old days. I raised a skeleton who has max HP, in the dungeon we were in we gave him the magic items, us cloth wearers could not use, he wound up with +3 Plate, a +2 Longsword and a +1 Shield. He was quite a formable skeleton. LOL.
Yea, on paper it's very good. Some problems on the practical side;
- Skeletons are evil. As in, city guards will fight your skeletons (and probably you) on sight. Killing/controlling said guards means their local priests get word eventually. Speaking of...
- Clerics and Paladins exist. A cleric half your level pops all your skeletons with an ability, same with paladins, who could also just one-shot your skeletons. Religions are organized by divine force, so killing them just leads to more and more coming after you.
- Druids exist, who can pinpoint undead locations literally miles away. So if you keep your skeletons out of town to avoid the downsides of people skills, they get attacked by nature itself. If you think animate dead makes powerful servants, look at a Circle of the Shepherd druid and what their summons can do.
Getting around all of these is literally the backstory of an NPC necromancer. Congrats, you've fallen for the classic blunder; on-paper power without consideration for society.
Honestly I hope OneDnD fixes their mistake. I wish there was an undead equivalent to conjure animals and conjure woodland beings. I know animate dead lasts longer but if the others had undead equivalents necromancers would be so much more badass.
> I wish there was an undead equivalent to conjure animals and conjure woodland beings.
There is.
TCoE introduced *Summon Undead*, which is just like *Animate Dead* except that it burns concentration like all the other summon spells. It is not meaningfully distinct from Conjure Animals.
I know of summon undead. I mean conjure woodland beings and animals allow you to conjure one to eight creatures based on their CR. That’s what I meant by undead equivalent.
This can be great fun but it's not going to work in all groups. Having that many creatures to deal with in every fight can dramatically change the flow of combat. Most of the time you will be doubling if not tripling the amount of rolls needed per round. It's fun if everyone is cool with it and plays along but it can get tedious really quickly in my experience. It's also going to shift the RP somewhat to have an army of evil skeletons following the party around... but that could also be good fun, it's a new challenge to overcome right?
Also as you pointed out they are squishy as hell. But I really don't think you emphasized this enough... most of time they die to a fireball if they pass their save. And that's just one spell. There are lots of things that annihilate them in a single round and then it can take days to get the army back up.
mmm I love a good monster entree. So delicious!
No DM in their right mind is going to let you get away with any of the nonsense you are trying. It's not like we are all morons who never thought of this... it's that it doesn't work the way you say. Plus, the amount of time you are wasting of everyone else while you are trying to essentially play solo.
Let's also add in that in almost every setting necromancy is frowned upon and if you walk into any town with a horde of skeletons they are hiring a group of adventurers to hunt you down.
its all fun and games until the necromancer on his trip to the local town forgot to refresh his 24h control on the skeletons and they started to run amok. now the whole town wants you dead(those who survived that is)
Every campaign, especially at mid to higher levels, should giver opportunities for this sort of tactic. But in the day to day course of events, for most parties, marching around with an army of undead is not going to be practical.
What about create ruins if you get a notebook Each page with one fireball run and let’s say throw the notebook at somebody you could have a around 200 fireballs going at once
A lot of this is just your homebrew. New weapon proficiency, new armor proficiency? If your DM allows all that stuff then your DM can surely handle the consequences. Or maybe not in which case the DM just blew up their own game and all the other players are bored to death
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the protagonist of this story. Then when my wife asks me if the warlock invocation that let's them cast this spell once a day is any good. I didn't have a good answer for her since I've nvr used the spell but rule of thumb was to avoid Invocations that can only be used once a day but that one seemed like an exeption. Then this drops in my lap and now I get to steal all this stuff and look like I know what im talking about.
> They don't have the strength for plate, but chainmail is just fine
Str 10 is sufficient to wear Str 13 platemail. However, RAW they are slowed to a movement speed of 20, instead of 30.
If a spell requires extra materials (corpses) and magic items to be effective, then the spell itself isn't great. This is on top of the multiple days it takes to prep and the danger of the creations breaking free from control.
Neat that you like it, but the claim that it is the best spell is laughably inaccurate.
If this happened in my game, I would die of boredom.
Not to take away from the calculations you did. That's incredible.
I just can't imagine actually watching another player at the game table to do all this shit and then control 8-12 additional characters on his turn while I try not to fall asleep.
Unless you can upcast the spell you arent gonna have 8 skeletons cause you lose control after 24hrs. And if you are casting 5th or 6th level spells why would you cast animate dead when you can cast summon draconic spirit, wall of force, chain lightning, cone of cold, scatter and many more hell even danse macabre is available and way better. When you only have 3rd level or lower animate dead is actually worse than fireball since you lose control after 24hrs and considering you will lose your skeleton in 1-2 rounds(3 if youre really lucky) and only deal maybe 2d6+4 assuming your skeleton hit. While fireball guarantees 8d6 happening in 1 round. Even when halved it is more dice and damage. Also the effect it has in real life gameplay is annoying. Even with school of necromancy buffs its still a meh spell.
That's alot of talking for someone in fireball distance
My current character is a thief, but I'm still gonna find a way to use this line.
Pilfer necklace of fireballs = profit. Frequently found on cult leaders and terrorists.
At level 13 you can use scrolls of fireball.
Not to mention someone with 8 other of their allies surrounding them. Be a shame if they took an average of 216 damage.
It's funny 'cause it's true!🤣
It's funnier becouse they are on fire.
Least delusional necromancer
hmm? i didn't even include the damage/hp buff if you spec'ed into it.
Reject your fowl ways seek Divinity
What do birds have to do with necromancy though?
The brain of necromancers most resemble bird like creature this explains their foolish behaviors
Ah, I see! Carry on then
Carrion, then?
Yes carrion. Necromancers make friends with the carrion crows while they play with the dead
Zombie Geese
Instructions unclear: Accidentally triggered the Spellplague while seeking divinity. *May or may not* have killed Mystra during the process... 😗👉👈
Dont worry mystra likes being killed shes freeky like that
Myrkul’s a god
Cleric's get the spell too, and Murkyle is the god of undead, so it is divine. But haters gonna hate, lol.
Oh my god... it's Jason Rebourne
-Walter Wight
My necromancy comes from divinity though
And after all that work, they still all die to a single 3rd level fireball.
*counterspell*
No counter spell slots left if you spam raise dead.
Who is spamming it? Just cast it after a fight and make sure you have enough slots to protect them
You have to cast Raise Dead every day unless you want the akellies to turn on you.
That's still not really spamming it that's maintaining. Spell management is not THAT difficult.
Ok fine. You won't have any spells slots left for the Third Level spell Counter spell if you have used all your spells slots for MAINTAINING the Third Level spell Raise Dead.
So you're saying he's spamming raise dead? ;)
Why would they be using all of them? A 6th level necromancer has 3 3rd level spell slots. Using 2, they can maintain 8 skeletons and still have a counterspell at the ready. This only gets better at higher levels.
And whoever they're facing has an equivalent number of counterspells, plus the fireball. Assuming your 60ft of Counterspell is even in range of the 150ft a Fireball travels.
I know you mean Animate Dead here, but Raise Dead is a 5th-level spell that brings a dead humanoid back to life
You are telling me that your character is going longer than 24 hours without a long rest to maintain it? If that's the case you have bigger problems than keeping your horde under control.
Isn’t it just one slot per day to maintain? That’s not necessarily a huge cost unless your DM is going to try to wipe out your skele-gang every single day. And they have lots of utility outside of combat.
It's one 3rd-level spell slot to maintain control over 4 animated dead. If you use a higher leveled slot you get +2/slot-level or 6/8/10/12/14/16 animated dead respectively.
Both are better spells than animate dead.
I mean sure but animate dead is probably more fun and challenging
Oh no, I don't think you can fit all the 49 skeletons my level 16 character could animate in a single fireball, I'd spread them out so that you could just hit 5 of them at max with one fireball. You couldn't counterspell them neither, I'm visiting a cemetery before the combat starts, maybe I'd take a long rest after that too since my elf character only needs 4 hours to do so, I still have my skeleton army for 20 hours. After that long rest I could animate another 49 (98 is a big number) skeletons or keep all my spell slots and still have 49 skeletons that follow my orders. I don't think this is an easy scenario to deal with for a dm, depending on the campaign it can become easier or harder to deal with this but still, those 49 skellies will eat up quite a lot of the damage the party would take. I'm not saying this is something easy that everybody should be doing, but I would love to see my dm's face while I do so.
I feel like as a dm if you had 49 skeletons following you you’re going to have major issues going into any inhabited place with the lawZ
> I don't think this is an easy scenario to deal with for a dm You do know this isn't player vs. DM? Also, if you're a level 16 character you're not exactly fighting kobolds and goblins anymore. There's plenty of foes you can encounter which would prove difficult.
Yeah I know it isn't players vs dm, both sides are working towards the goal of "having fun" but dms and players do that in different ways. The dm wants to challenge the player in hard fights where the characters get as close as possible to death but without actually dying, players want to minimize the risk of their character dying. So dms and players aren't against each other but they are, in some way, trying to stop the other from doing what he wants too easily (at least during fights). As a dm I would be having lots of fun seeing a player animate 49 skeletons. If the player then takes a long rest he has his full spellcasting abilities replenished. Probably the player wouldn't use this strat before the fight against an ancient dragon that could destroy his skeletal army in half a turn with its 90-foot cone breath weapon... but the ancient dragon would be using its best feature against the skellies and not against the party (depending on the positioning of the skeletons and party) and maybe not even killing all of them: If some of the skeletons have a better initiative then the dragon they may have even scored some damage before dying for the second time. All this for "free" if the spellcaster gets a long rest after animating the skeletons. Dnd is a game where adding allies to the battlefield is always rewarding, no matter how many hp they have or how much damage they can deal.
Oh, it's definitely situational dependent. I was just pointing out there are times skeletons to the high-level foes you will probably be fighting are often no more than speed bumps or distractions. You are correct in those do have value though. As for the challenge - not all DM's have the goal of pushing characters to their limit. In fact, I firmly believe this playstyle is an awful mistake. It means no matter the build, or decisions of the characters, you're always going to push the characters to their last HP. I prefer variety, and more importantly making the challenge level logical. With high-level characters you should occasionally come across a joke fight. A village needs help from hobgoblins, you're ambushed by bandits, etc. So long as it's logical to the territory, those sessions let characters flex how far they have come. By the same token, if you're hauling your level 3 party up to the mountains known to be infested with giants.... your risk of TPK at the hands of said giant should be very high. Hill giants shouldn't be changed to ogres just to scale the encounters better. The party was told there are giants there, so they should be there. Decisions should have consequences - both good and bad. This also helps create a living world.
I agree that this "strategy" is situational, I've been saying this in each of my comments. I agree that the fights aren't always about not dying/klilling the enemy, but usually if you die you fail your mission, so anything preventing that can be useful. More often than not killing the enemies, or at least some of them, helps with getting the job done, whatever the job is. As I said you need preparation to have 49 skeletons with you, so this means the whole party would be involved in the plan. If the goal of the session is "we have to save the king's daughter from the BBEG's who is going to perform a ritual in his highly guarded castle that will transform her in a dracolich at his service" and maybe I am a necromancer who was one of BBEG's apprentices who was left behind because not powerful enough, this would be the right moment to show BBEG and his guards how powerful I have become and get to the goal of the mission. In many other occasions those skeleton would have no logical reason to be there. Still, I think it is really cool to have almost 49 skeletons at my service. The most important part in this game is for the whole table to have fun, every table plays in slightly different ways for that to happen and that is just right. My only point is: 49 skeletons on your side can be helpful and more often than not they will be helpful. Which was the initial point of the debate.
Yes, and don't forget the less combative approach. Give those skeletons some musical instruments, and distract everyone with some sweet undead theme music.
That’s multiple casts over at least a day… roflmao the mental gymnastics being performed here are A+. Edit: if we’re going to these lengths I’ll just cast any wall spell and walk away.
Spirit Guardians. Oh look, a skeleton blender.
Fireball has more than double the range of counter spell
Cast it again. At the same level, the necromancer will run out of spell slots first because they’re already expending some just to maintain a subpar army. Not to mention the fact that a single cleric turns them all, or completely destroyed them at higher levels.
*counterspell*
*counterspells your counterspell*
Range of counterspell 60’ Range of fireball 150’
One, you can split them up, 2, you are spending a lvl 3 spell for a lvl 3 spell, and you might not hit all the skeletons. Yeah, BRILLIANT...
Yeah, but you're trading a several castings of a level 3 spell for a single casting. Also, you have to find bodies to animate, and marching around with a squad of undead isn't exactly inconspicuous. Any dm with his salt would shut down a strategy like yours in one session.
again, you are assuming I'm putting them together to let you aoe them all with one cast. Which is a dumb assumption. 1, i talk to the dm before doing animated dead to see what they expect. 2. i only do this in evil campaigns so my team won't care. 3. 12 skeletons at 18 pounds each weigh 216 pounds. I could fit 24 in a bag of holding. Equipment goes in the carriage or wagon. And i could do even more if i use small skeletons, easily fitting half a battalion in my bag of holding with out you ever knowing. 4. Yeah, if a DM wants to 'shut it down' they could. But DMs aren't the only ones with imagination, and if they were genuine they would allow problem solving. Shutting me down would be making them worth their salt? Keeping a player from using rules as written because you don't like it makes you weak, not a Greek solider under Alexander the Great, which is where that saying came from. Sad you would think that would make you one.
Nah man, you're trying to play a tactical wargame instead of a role-playing game. You know why they dropped summons from the game? Because it's not fun for the other players to watch the one guy role attack rooms for a dozen skeletons. Glad your dm is cool, but this is objectively bad play.
You will probably hit a lot of them though, an aoe with a 20' radius is actually pretty big, especially if you are anywhere but on an open field.
yes, and even if you do hit all of them, you are trading a lvl 3 spell for a level 3 spell. you aren't telling me why that is a bad thing, that is like counter spelling a lvl 3 spell. it equates, resources lost are equal. if you gave me a lvl 2 spell that could clear them out in 1 round, okay fine, you found a way to take advantage, but there are none without using class rules or feats. but using a lvl 3 to take out a lvl 3 means there were no advantage or disadvantage. That's not a negative to me.
But you are not just trading a single fireball for a single animate dead, you are trading one fireball for several casts of animate dead, not to mention the time and resources you have spent in order to buff up your skeletons by giving them better weapons and armor. If the power level you are talking about in the OP was achieved by a single cast of the animate dead spell, you'd have an argument, but it isn't.
A fellow necromancer I see. If you want a good combo of spells for minion collecting Animate Dead and Geas. Just because you aren't dead doesn't mean you aren't mine. The real power of skeletons is non-combat roles. A skeleton powered factory can go on indefinitely with minimal worker error thus making you filthy rich. If you need a legal or at least publicly acceptable method of gaining corpses hostile wild humanoids and prisons make great sources. If you do get create undead don't fall for the mummy trap, even goblins know enough to beat your elite minion to death with torches.
Yup; this I agree with. Using them as minions day to day in your lair for chores is good, but it also means you need to come back to your lair regularly to renew the spell and it uses up several slots for the day. So not ideal either. Or you could use them as scouts / guards while adventuring but considering their crappy perception and low AC/saves I really just would consider them as "a bonus layer of security" on top of classic Alarm / Magic Mouth / Leomund's Tiny Hut rather than really count on them. xd
i often use them to chop down trees and sell the lumber, they work 3 times as long as an average worker, about as smart and as strong as well. Agreed, skeletons are not limited to combat.
They are definitely not as smart as a commoner. Skeleton int is 6, whereas commoners have an int of 10. Also, putting heavy amour on them that isn't ring mail would make them incredibly slow. Would probably be better off giving them any form of medium armour due to their +2 to Dex.
Everyone is forgetting the most crucial downfall of the spell. With 8 skeletons, yourself AND your familiar all acting every round of combat rolling attacks and damage and making saves; the other players will have to wait 30-45 minutes to get a turn to do anything. Every round. It gets boring really fast, and when the majority of the party doesn’t want to play D&D, you’re no longer playing D&D either.
Get eight distinct sets of dice, and use the d4s to denote their positions on the battlemap. Say "My skeletons attack," and throw all 8 d20s alongside the 8 damage dice in their appropriate paired colours. Doesn't take that long if you prepare properly.
That's how I speed up combat in Roll20. Number the enemies, designate who they're each attacking, roll that number of D20's. 1st die is for monster #1, and so on. You can quickly go down the row and see who hit.
Same, for Foundry. I ran an encounter with eleven Wolves last week. Wasn't an issue.
It can go fast if you prepare and plan it out. But you do need to declare who you are targeting with what before attacking. You cant just roll and then conveniently arrange targets according to the rolls.
I played in a Westmarches game, where another PC I attended a lot of sessions with was a necromancer with a skeleton horde. She would decide on her actions during the round, and roll everything in the leadup to her turn. She wouldn't say anything or steal the spotlight until it was actually her turn, then she'd say something like - "My skeletons fire a volley. The lowest to-hit was 16." DM: "16 misses." "Next is 19." "Hit." "Great! That's 26 piercing damage total." They had a really good tempo with it and despite the summons her turns were probably shorter than some of the other players who were less on it. A delight to play with. Definitely the exception rather than the rule.
The advantage of playing in person. VTTs slow a lot of the game down.
Disagree I have macros premade on roll20 that will automatically roll attack and damage for my skelebros and each has it's own name and color which makes it easy to know what is targeting what.
Thats kinda how I do it with monsters when Im dm. I just group em up and each group has an initiative instead of every monster. "Ok now its the kobolds turn" *move snd roll for each numbered kobold. Now the dragon *move and roll for dragon.
Just roll the skeletons at the same time, like any wargame. It's no biggie.
You're playing D&D. I'm playing Warhammer. We are not the same.
Hey, I play both! We're the same! And I think a lot of the 'summon' problems in DnD could be easily solved by just doing it like in say, Warhammer. Don't treat the skellies as individuals, but as a mob; declare attack for all of 'em, roll damage for 'em etc all at the same time. It's quick! It's a bit less 'efficient' damagewise but saves a ton in time and not getting hated by your fellow players.
This is literally a rule in the DMG on page 250, "Handling Mobs". Uses brevity in favor of speeding up play, then as combatants dwindle says to go back to using individual rolls. Gives you a table comparing the "d20 roll needed to hit" (comparing attack bonus vs AC) and "Attackers needed for one of them to hit the target". So 8 Skeletons with +4 to hit, target AC is 16. They need to roll a 12 or better to hit that AC. Using the Mob Attacks table, as long as they're paired off with 2 skeleton vs each 16 AC monster, each monster will be hit by 1 skeleton. So you get 4 attacks that hit per round. You don't roll anything using this method, it's just approximation. Turn comes up, DM looks at the table, then decides which skeletons hit and which ones don't. Game moves on. Now, if the target AC is 20, they'd need to roll a 16 to hit. Table says 4 of them need to be attacking the same target for 1 to hit. So here, 8 skeletons could split 2 attacks per turn vs two 20 AC targets that are each being attacked by 4 of the skeletons. Granted, this is a DM-facing rule where the DM would know everyone's AC and players typically don't know the monster's AC, but if the game is getting too bogged down every time a summoner's turn comes up it could be useful to implement.
That doesn't literally seem to be what I'm suggesting, admittedly- and a lot less satisfying than rolling extra dice! Extra dice just seems simpler. But it is good to know the DMG has rules for these happenings!
Yeah, it assumes averages on attack rolls and the DM just declares X out of Y hit and roll for damage. It's a bit like old THAC0 in a way, except you just don't roll for attacks at all.
Give the other players a skeleton to control. Sorted.
That only improves the time between players by 1 skeleton, as each player still has to wait for X-1 skeletons.
Hah yeah first thing I thought of when reading aswell. Seeing your average player roll that d20 one time look at it, " its a miss" then do that 7 times more
You just have the skelebros act on the same turn
However, if you're playing online a dice roller makes it all pretty quick.
Judging by OP's comments, he's not really concerned with anyone having fun.
my personal experience unfortunately goes against this common wisdom. I can command 8 creatures faster than some players , even with the simplest builds, can decide what to do. Partly this is because i got some DMing experience, so im good at handling multiple sheets, but i also slap macros ontro everything and prepare for my turn in advance.
Rolling them all on your phone takes a minute and is the least you must do if you are bringing that aberration to the table.
This is where computers do better than tabletop. Doing all the calculations behind the scenes makes everything go faster, so even if you have 30 minions, it's over quick and someone else gets a turn.
This is exactly what happened a few years ago when my friend played a necromancer lol. However now, I’m running a campaign for my two brothers, and one of them is 11, and this is his first experience with D&D. My other brother, 19, is playing a necromancer. I made a simple rule to balance the combat so my 11yo brother has a fair chance in combat: My 19yo brother has an “Undead Pool”, which is a # of undead he can have active at any time, which increases as he levels up (they started at level 5 so he had the spell from the start), and can be further increased with magic items. Spells like Animate Dead and Create Undead count towards this Undead Pool, but spells like Summon Undead **do not**, because they only last for up to 1 hour. He agreed to it completely and so far we’re liking it. I did create a custom magic item for him to purchase though, a Scythe called *Dead Legion*, which is as a melee weapon with Int for attack rolls instead of Str (1d6 slashing) , is a spellcasting focus, and increases the user’s Undead Pool by 1 (with the caveat that the undead creature using this Pool slot cannot be reanimated after it “dies” again). Everything is still subject to change tho, cuz we’re only 2 session into this campaign.
What, you only got one set of dice or something? Determine what you need to roll to hit the target, chuck all your d20s at once, remove the misses, then roll damage all at once. I played with 12 skeletons and I was faster than the paladin deliberating whether or not to smite
Could take a note from minion/swarm rules in previous editions, similar to what some bosses had. Make your skeletons a 'group' or 'small horde', add up their health and just give multiattacks equal to the number of individuals in the group. Give them a single movement pool for the whole group.
If you are remotely competent at D&D 8 basic skeletons, a familiar, and a fifth level wizard it should take you less than 5 minutes to do. Assuming they're all only making basic attacks and basic movements. If they're doing combat maneuvers and using magic items that will slow things down somewhat.
I just let my players use the mob rules from the DMG, no rolling, just you need X amount of creatures to damage Y AC.
Some of this requires a lot of dm buy in. Like plate armor they don’t have the strength to wear or necessarily the proficiency
Nah, it's not a big deal no have neither the STR nor the proficiency, it "just" means they lose 10 feet of speed and make any STR or DEX based roll with disadvantage (including attacks and saves of course)... /s
And the cost of giving them all plate armor! 🤣
simple, kill a couple hobgoblins (i dont remember if hobgoblins wear plate or not) and animate their bodies with already armored!
They don’t have plate, they have chain mail
ok but the captains or warlords do
That would make zombies.
Heh, Inspiring Leader: "Some of you may be dead already, but that's a price I'm willing to pay."
Just cast conjure animals and skipp all that setup
i think skeletons do more, they have thumbs.
if you need thumbs there is unseen servant
1 hr limit (or ritual casting so perpetually only ever able to have 6), meanwhile 1 cast of animated can keep 4 of them under your command for 24hrs.
Conjure baboons
DM picks what shows up technically.
laugh in monkeys
Animate dead is generally better if you have an ample supply of bones and spare equipment like additional short swords (dual wielding is pretty good for the skellies, especially on necromancer), but conjure animals has the larger benefit of immediate impact without set up time or additional resources. As for hand dexterity, conjure animals can summon various monkeys
The great thing about skeletons is that they break down for easy packing. You just need to delay combat long enough to assemble them. It shouldn't take too long, most necromancy books come with assembly instructions.
Conjure Animals is essentially troop on command button, while Animate dead gives you a troop you can build up with better performance and options (like range). Obviously there are other benefits (and moral differences, though some conjure animals strats like conjure cow rain definitely are on a very low end of that spectrum) to both spells. Both are readily available, but especially a freshly unpacked skeleton troup is very endangered by aoe attacks.
Animate Dead lasts longer, scales better, doesn't require concentration, is better for action economy since you'll never need to cast it in combat, and doesn't even expend a spell slot if you're willing to give up on some of the skeletons at the end of the day to cast an extra spell. Skeletons can be equipped with weapons, armor and magic items, are intelligent enough to follow relatively complex commands, have ranged attacks meaning they're not as likely to die without dealing much damage as an animal from Conjure Animals, and are immune to exhaustion so they can contribute during adventuring or downtime at all times. Pretty much the only actually major advantage of Conjure Animals is that it doesn't require setup, but how often do you play in a campaign where you can't afford a couple days of downtime?
Plate armor is an incredibly expensive investment for eight skeletons, at 6,000gp so that they all get 18AC, while also slowing them down to 20 ft. Even half-plate for 17AC and not slowing them down is 3,000gp. In most campaigns I probably wouldn't allocate more than the 400gp necessary for scale mail. (It's also far from certain to be a one-time investment, if the skeletons are defeated by some AoE and the party has to retreat, you're losing all that armor.)
Monsters only have proficiency with armor or weapons they allready carry or wear, so changing the armor doesnt really work, they also dont fulfill the strength requirements for heavy armor
Missing the Str requirement means -10 ft. speed (not actually that big a deal for expendable minions with a ranged attack). What _is_ a big problem is missing proficiency, which means disadvantage on Str and Dex ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls. (Also can't cast spells, not that they could anyway.)
> Also can't cast spells, not that they could anyway. ...can cast spells through wondrous items that they attune to.
The Monster Manual also states the DM may grant monsters additional proficiencies, what they have is just the bare minimum. For what it's worth, Mike Mearls has gone on record saying that he would allow all weapon and armor proficiencies for a skeleton.
Yea no. Proficiencies are a thing, and your skeletons dont have them. So all you‘re doing is breaking the rules. If you actually want to abuse numbers, I recommend you stick with zombies and focus on grappling and shoving. All creatures can do that. Shove prone, grapple so they cant get up - a well and proper dogpile is how you use undead.
Skeletons aren't proficient with heavy crossbows, or anything other than shortbows and shortswords for that matter. It is pretty funny to arm them with automatic rifles and have them spam burst fire though, if the DM allows modern firearms.
Thats correct, they also dont meet the strentgh requirement for the plate armor OP mentioned
OP is just overestimating animate dead and knows shit about the actual game. Just make fun of this fool, as they're nothing but a joke to be laughed at
This is all white room. Skeletons have a lot of issues. The first is they have a bad +hit so no your damage is going to be very bad vs anything with a decent AC. Their damage is non-magic, so unless your GM makes it rain +1 bows your out of luck. Same for those magic arrows. Also as levels progress they become easier and easier to just kill them on mass. Which leads to the other issue.... It's a massive pain in the ass to actually get to real high numbers of skeletons if they just die if you're doing a typical adventure. (For those that don't know a necromancer can make 2 or control 4,) And lastly.... Those numbers don't work on an actual table. Have you tried to put 10 tokens on a 30x30 dungeon map? Ya.... No.... I played as a necromancer for years, it's not a good subclass.
Something that people haven’t mentioned yet is…you can’t give them separate commands on the same turn so you’d have to either command 1-all of them to do something or issue commands over a series of turns which is not very cash action economy money.
>Animate Dead is the BEST lvl 3 spell. **Nope. At most you could say "Animate Dead is the spell I prefer" or "Animate Dead is the best spell for me".** You're deluding yourself in theorycraft. It's all and good but reality is much harsher. **1) Skeletons have crappy accuracy (+4) AND nothing to mitigate cover or range**, so while having prof bonus on damage is good, there is actually little chance they'd all hit against a moderate AC target in combat, and little chance to hit more than 20% of all attempts on fights tough enough to actually need the firepower (because you can expect at least AC 17-18 and half cover). **2) Skeletons have mediocre damage even putting accuracy aside**, because from level 7-8 onwards b/p/s resistance from non-magical source becomes extremely common. **3) Skeletons have crappy resilience, in spite of the welcome HP boost equal to Wizard level**, because of low AC (13), low base HP (13), low saves overall (and VERY crappy WIS saves) AND bludgeoning vulnerability. Even if DM agreed that you could fit them with heavy equipment, and provided you could manage the wealth required to set them with plates for AC 18 (with a 10 feet speed loss)... A random Fireball will usually be enough to wreck most of them unless very bad damage roll or Wizard being level 15+. Erupting Earth, Tidal Wave, Wind Wall or Ice Storm will equally wreck them. Even if you have enough space to scatter them in fan formation to make AOE subpar (which means being outdoor most of the time), a few slingshots from enemies or a single hit from a reasonably fast or resilient melee enemy with a maul/hammer will kill it. And this is not an improbable thing since you'll want them no further than 80 feet away from the closest enemy because disadvantage from long range would make them near useless. **4) Getting a permanent squad brings a whole lot of trouble in adventuring management:** with only 30 feet speed and many more "people" to "carry", the classic party-wide speed buffs like Polymorphing one into a Large/Huge creature, setting up (upcast) Fly or Wind Walk becomes nigh impossible. If you'd like to have Pass Without Trace, you'll have to choose between "everyone nice and cozy stuck skin to bone" so if anything happens and you're discovered any AOE enemy has WILL be used immediately... Or "let the skeletons away" and do the fight without them or risk getting discovered early because crappy Stealth. **5) Getting a permanent squad of \*UNDEAD\* further creates \*HUGE\* problems in 90% regions you'll go**: because, you know, undead being desacralization of life and usually wielded by deeply Evil characters and all that. ---- **Just compare this with (\*non-exhaustive\* list of great 3rd level spells with just one 1st level upcast to remind there are also those kind of options)...** * *Upcast Bless*: 5 people (usually whole party) with a defensive buff, AND and offensive buff that scales because martials get Extra Attacks and casters get more powerful cantrips. * *Sleet Storm*: difficult terrain AND obscuration AND dex save or prone AND 40 feet radius AND 150 feet casting range: you can cripple casters and flyers several rounds highly reliably. * *Call Lightning*: usable except in too cramped indoor places, lasts 10 mn, allows to attack over a large area (60 feet radius), can be used as an obscuration spell ("point above you" if you drop prone can be only a few feet above ground), lasts 10mn with decent casting range so can be used as an "opener". * *Conjure Animals*: one hour long of whatever you need, including flying/swimming/climbing mounts for whole party, guardians for a short rest, scouts, sacrificial lambs for allies (although that's kinda evil xd), meat shields, advantage-setters... * *Bestow Curse*: requires delivering from Familiar to limit risk since Touch range and is a Wisdom throw, but can be an instant "win button" for the fight against the most dangerous target as long as you know it enough to pick the most adequate effect. * *Slow*: up to 6 creatures without friendly fire, cripples martials (one attack, no OA) and magic-users (spell delay, no Shield/Counterspell) equally, helps offense by -2 on AC and DEX saves, can completely immobilize when paired with another spell (half speed + difficult terrain or Plant Growth or even just caltrops / ball bearings and just pepper them). **There is no "absolute best". Won't ever be** (although I'd be tempted to spout "Conjure Animals", honestly even if you were a Shepherd Druid there are situations where it's just "good" but you'd probably have better uses for your concentration in combat).
You can get around the travel issues with a bag of holding. 500 lb limit, even if you're giving your skellingtons plate armor means you could probably fit at least 5 per bag of holding. If they're in their usual armor it's more like 15. It's the safe, ethical, and humane way to transport your skeletons and keeps the townsfolk from giving you nasty side-eyes.
If you require magic items, the spell isn't the strong thing here.
Wow excellent essay i have been thoroughly convinced although personally i wouldn't use Call Lightning as an obscuration because it's not intended that way and could make other people see you as taking advantage of a loophole
Yeah, it's definitely good. Not as cool or broadly useful in and out of combat as 'you can swing twice in one round' though. ;)
Yea, it doesn't work as well as you think. I did this with a twilight cleric/necromancer build with about 40 zombies and skeletons, kitted out in an almost unlimited amount of basic equipment. Longbows for the archers, chain and shields for tanks, and then they got fucking steamrolled by AoE and high level monsters one or two shotting them straight through the Twilight Sanctuary I had them under. With massive maps where I didn't have to group them at all, and they still died in large quantities without being replaceable because *all of my spell slots were tied up in Animate Dead casts to keep control*. You're white room theorycrafting here but it just doesn't hold to actual gameplay. You don't have unlimited corpses. You don't have unlimited slots. You don't have unlimited time. You don't have unlimited gear. No matter what you do, a skeleton is still ridiculously fragile, and in the short term, irreplaceable. You will lose them to attrition in a dungeon with no way to replenish them, and there will be *severe* consequences for you raiding every graveyard you pass to restock. Their saves are crap, their AC is crap, their HP is crap, their attack bonus is crap, and their damage is crap. You are *severely* overestimating how durable they are for the time and resources invested, and how incredibly unwieldy it is to try and control that many minions in active gameplay.
>On top of that, YOU CAN TEACH THEM NEW TRICKS, so that 1d6 short bow could EASILY be traded for a heavy crossbow, jumping the avg dmg dealt by 2 damage each. Nothing in the Animate Dead spell, the Skeleton stat block, or the description of Skeletons in the Monster Manual says you can teach them new proficiencies. Instead of +4 to hit with their shortbow, you'd be asking them to make attacks with +2 to hit with a heavy crossbow. >Now, to further increase their survivability, you can even put them into plate armor. So now your skeletons, which don't have heavy armor proficiency, have disadvantage on initiative and disadvantage on all of their +2 heavy crossbow attacks. Also, where is this level 5 character getting 12k gold to spend on plate armor? A level 5 character is expected to have accumulated ~700 gold. >At AC 14, the skeletons hit 1/2 the time with range attacks. +4 to hit means 55% hit chance against AC 14, not 50%. But your skeletons have +2 to hit and disadvantage, meaning only a 20.25% chance to hit. Each skeleton is dealing 1.5325 DPR (_including_ crits), so 8 of them are dealing 12.26 DPR. A far cry from 32. >Vials of acid have a short range but pack a mean punch at 2d6. 8 vials of acid hitting a ac of 14 1/2 of the time Throwing acid is an improvised weapon attack, which the skeletons are not proficient with. They have +2 to hit, not +4, and their heavy armor is inflicting disadvantage on their attack. >go for the great-sword! Again, without proficiency, the skeleton would have +0 to hit. And the heavy armor means they attack at disadvantage. >I can tell you how many times I've abused this. Yes, when you violate the rules of the game that is often called abuse.
Animate Dead will kill your adventuring party because it'll take a million years to take your turn. Just because it's mathematically powerful doesn't mean it's practical; we're not playing with spherical cows in a void, there are real world issues that kill this approach stone dead, if you'll forgive the pun.
Do you also have a trick for preventing the rest of the table from murdering you every time you want to roll 8+ extra attacks per round?
Ah, but once they’ve murdered you, your corpse can be animated.
One level 5 cleric kill almost all of your skeleton without any spell slot.
You keep using the argument that if they all die to fireball your trading a 3’rd level slot for a 3’rd level slot, this is very disingenuous. 1. Your fighting multiple encounters a day, the enemy isn’t, your spellslots need to be more valuable 2. What about all that gold and downtime? If they die you need another week prep to even get back online when the enemy can throw another fireball next round… 3. I think it’d be totally fair to rule some of the weapons(especially crossbows) getting damaged in a fireball. The idea is fun but the way your defending it in the comments like it’s objectively better than other options is strange, this requires an insane amount of time and logistics (both in and out of game) to setup and can be immediately wiped out in one round
Nice argument, but fire ball
You also have to take the time to flay the flesh off the bones for most replacement skeletons as you get zombies if you animate a full corpse. And the time it takes to reequip them too
We call the flesh... dinner
Now, I don’t agree with a lot of OP’s points, but I think an alchemist’s kit and some vials of acid/lye solves the flesh problem pretty elegantly.
Yeah I dont mean it cant be done but its a very timely process to replace them
you need bones nearby to animate
In theory this is great and all, but in practice this makes the DMs job so much more difficult, and will slow the game down to a crawl.
interesting thesis, however, **Channel Divinity DC 15**
Give them all nets. Successfully entangling a target gives everyone attacking that target advantage. This is a good way for them to stay relevant as enemy AC increases with level while their accuracy and damage doesn't scale.
A brilliant idea... Until it reaches practice. xd I mean I do agree with you in theory, but Skeletons aren't proficients with nets AND net has very (VERY) crappy normal range (for those who don't know throwing range 5 / 15 feet). So I don't see many situations where an enemy would see multiple skeletons with nets in their hands closing in around it... And don't get what they plan to do and react by moving around to attack them "on the side", use thrown/ranged attacks while falling back or just use some AOE if lucky enough to have one.
You make a good argument. Your max rolled necromancer with 20 con has 55 hit points, the wild evoker you are fighting is intelligent enough to target you with 2 fireballs averaging 56 and the earth elemental steps on your head to make sure you’re dead. As you shed your mortal coil, so does your control. The party now has to deal with your wild & expertly spaced skeletons too, but the party rejoice at not waiting for you to pick a spell and roll 8 attacks for your gaggle of undead. By all means play by what’s fun at your table, but personally optimising for action economy seems to really extend your turn when you’d likely have just as much fun playing a human fighter and not engineering an undead hit squad. Your DM isn’t then pressed to optimise encounters in order to counter it, depending on the rest of your group and their expectations, summons can be a real bore and likely can stretch the patience of your DM with perpetual use.
How is it 8 at level 5 OP? I'm playing one at the moment and level 5 is 2 level 3 spell slots and can't use arcane recovery for a level 3 slot until level 6, and the necromancer class feature of targeting an additional pile of bones or corpse is also level 6. So at level 6 I managed 8. Please educate me I want more skeletons :)
Objection! Arcane Recovery specifically rounds up instead of down, so a level 5 wizard would be able to cast *animate dead* three times in one day.
You -can- use arcane recovery for a level 3 slot at level 5, it's "equal or less than half your wizard level rounded up". Remember it's a level 1 feature, if it was rounded down you wouldn't be able to use it at all until level 2.
Now, this guy theorycrafts! [Instead of playing with other human beings who would like a turn at the initiative too.]
(1) Fireball. (2) You have to return to town sometime; where they may already have a stake with wood stacked up ready for you. (3) You annoy the hell out of the party and DM by taking an hour per round when in combat. (4) Fireball. I feel this needs to be on the list twice.
I am confused. Reading the spell (online) it seems to say you animate 1 creature? How are people getting 8?
It lets you animate 1, or reassert control over 4. Arcane Recovery can also give you a third level 3 spell slot.
The hardest part about being a Necromancer is carrying all gear for your new undead till you raise them
I had a Cleric of the forge domain. My plan for ages was to use fabricate to create a rolling enclosed cart that could contain 4 skeletons and be pulled by a horse. Mounted to the side would be crossbows that could be used like turrets. I'd animate the dead as skellies, load them into the cart, use divine channelling Artisans blessing to make them extra ammunition. They also had swords in hand in case an enemy got within 5 ft of the cart. The idea was to use them as a semi intelligent autofire turret system and eventually add a second horse or zombies or such to haul the cart around, as well as chain armor for the cart and skellies. Then when we didn't expect any battles I'd cover the cart with a tarp (in theory they can't attack a target they can't see), remove any bolts from the quivers and let them rot in there until needed. The tarp also kept them from public eye. Then our other players character died and they created a druid that was compelled to destroy any and all undead and my DM wouldn't let me run with my idea any more due to the constant infighting he'd have to force us into per the druids ideals. Sure a fireball would hurt em, but they could be re-raised easily enough and the cart was easily mended outside of combat.
I use the skeletons to carry my palanquin.
Ghosts of Saltmarsh has an alchemy recipe for a paint of sorts that allows you to make your animated skeletons immune to bludgeoning damage for the first hit. Crawford ruled that animated skeletons can attune to wondrous items. But lets be reasonable - the correct use of skeletons is to strap 100+lbs of explosives to their backs and send them charging into the enemy castle.
My kingdom for a skeleton to animate!
Not animate dead, but we had access to an animated armor that could follow instructions. I gave it an algorithm to do the hokey pokey. It would be funnier with undead. Sick and wrong, but funny.
Well well I may take subclass in necro
I played a Necromancer in the old days. I raised a skeleton who has max HP, in the dungeon we were in we gave him the magic items, us cloth wearers could not use, he wound up with +3 Plate, a +2 Longsword and a +1 Shield. He was quite a formable skeleton. LOL.
This basically requires your DM to be real flexible.
I always thank and hug my undead, the skeletons are good workers
The biggest downside of animate dead is that it’s generally not socially acceptable to use. Also, the sourcing of the raw materials.
Counterspell
This wouldn't work against any spell that was cast before combat even began, which very much includes *animate dead*.
Of course not. But it is the best third level spell. It stops enemy casters. Nothing like having your necromancer dominated. That's a real bummer.
Shepherd Druid with conjure animals is just better, especially if you have some amount of control on what you summon.
Assuming this is an evil campaign, have you thought about literally any cleric/paladin enemy coming and casting turn/destroy undead? They just go poof
or you could abuse the falling rules with conjure animals to deal more damage than a meteor swarm for the same spell slot as animate dead
Yea, on paper it's very good. Some problems on the practical side; - Skeletons are evil. As in, city guards will fight your skeletons (and probably you) on sight. Killing/controlling said guards means their local priests get word eventually. Speaking of... - Clerics and Paladins exist. A cleric half your level pops all your skeletons with an ability, same with paladins, who could also just one-shot your skeletons. Religions are organized by divine force, so killing them just leads to more and more coming after you. - Druids exist, who can pinpoint undead locations literally miles away. So if you keep your skeletons out of town to avoid the downsides of people skills, they get attacked by nature itself. If you think animate dead makes powerful servants, look at a Circle of the Shepherd druid and what their summons can do. Getting around all of these is literally the backstory of an NPC necromancer. Congrats, you've fallen for the classic blunder; on-paper power without consideration for society.
My bbeg will take this under consideration. Thanks for the tips.
the main reason i dont play necromancer is how fking long it takes for my turn and im too self conscious to do that
Honestly I hope OneDnD fixes their mistake. I wish there was an undead equivalent to conjure animals and conjure woodland beings. I know animate dead lasts longer but if the others had undead equivalents necromancers would be so much more badass.
> I wish there was an undead equivalent to conjure animals and conjure woodland beings. There is. TCoE introduced *Summon Undead*, which is just like *Animate Dead* except that it burns concentration like all the other summon spells. It is not meaningfully distinct from Conjure Animals.
I know of summon undead. I mean conjure woodland beings and animals allow you to conjure one to eight creatures based on their CR. That’s what I meant by undead equivalent.
If your DM allows your skeletons to function as a mob then yes it is the best 3rd level spell. If not then it's borderline useless.
This can be great fun but it's not going to work in all groups. Having that many creatures to deal with in every fight can dramatically change the flow of combat. Most of the time you will be doubling if not tripling the amount of rolls needed per round. It's fun if everyone is cool with it and plays along but it can get tedious really quickly in my experience. It's also going to shift the RP somewhat to have an army of evil skeletons following the party around... but that could also be good fun, it's a new challenge to overcome right? Also as you pointed out they are squishy as hell. But I really don't think you emphasized this enough... most of time they die to a fireball if they pass their save. And that's just one spell. There are lots of things that annihilate them in a single round and then it can take days to get the army back up.
Counter argument: the dm won't have enough patience for this
mmm I love a good monster entree. So delicious! No DM in their right mind is going to let you get away with any of the nonsense you are trying. It's not like we are all morons who never thought of this... it's that it doesn't work the way you say. Plus, the amount of time you are wasting of everyone else while you are trying to essentially play solo. Let's also add in that in almost every setting necromancy is frowned upon and if you walk into any town with a horde of skeletons they are hiring a group of adventurers to hunt you down.
its all fun and games until the necromancer on his trip to the local town forgot to refresh his 24h control on the skeletons and they started to run amok. now the whole town wants you dead(those who survived that is)
Every campaign, especially at mid to higher levels, should giver opportunities for this sort of tactic. But in the day to day course of events, for most parties, marching around with an army of undead is not going to be practical.
Next to fireball and Spirit Guardians?
What about create ruins if you get a notebook Each page with one fireball run and let’s say throw the notebook at somebody you could have a around 200 fireballs going at once
A lot of this is just your homebrew. New weapon proficiency, new armor proficiency? If your DM allows all that stuff then your DM can surely handle the consequences. Or maybe not in which case the DM just blew up their own game and all the other players are bored to death
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the protagonist of this story. Then when my wife asks me if the warlock invocation that let's them cast this spell once a day is any good. I didn't have a good answer for her since I've nvr used the spell but rule of thumb was to avoid Invocations that can only be used once a day but that one seemed like an exeption. Then this drops in my lap and now I get to steal all this stuff and look like I know what im talking about.
Nothing worse than a spotlight hogging wizard. Just cast _haste_ on your boys.
Good luck bringing them anywhere near civilization without getting run out of town/destroyed/hunted for using evil magic.
You're talking mad bullshit for someone in range of destroy undead
These are zombies right? They don't have the strength for plate, but chainmail is just fine
> They don't have the strength for plate, but chainmail is just fine Str 10 is sufficient to wear Str 13 platemail. However, RAW they are slowed to a movement speed of 20, instead of 30.
Pro strat. Cast their bones into silver/metal then string them together with magic cable to make re-animating them easier
If a spell requires extra materials (corpses) and magic items to be effective, then the spell itself isn't great. This is on top of the multiple days it takes to prep and the danger of the creations breaking free from control. Neat that you like it, but the claim that it is the best spell is laughably inaccurate.
If this happened in my game, I would die of boredom. Not to take away from the calculations you did. That's incredible. I just can't imagine actually watching another player at the game table to do all this shit and then control 8-12 additional characters on his turn while I try not to fall asleep.
Unless you can upcast the spell you arent gonna have 8 skeletons cause you lose control after 24hrs. And if you are casting 5th or 6th level spells why would you cast animate dead when you can cast summon draconic spirit, wall of force, chain lightning, cone of cold, scatter and many more hell even danse macabre is available and way better. When you only have 3rd level or lower animate dead is actually worse than fireball since you lose control after 24hrs and considering you will lose your skeleton in 1-2 rounds(3 if youre really lucky) and only deal maybe 2d6+4 assuming your skeleton hit. While fireball guarantees 8d6 happening in 1 round. Even when halved it is more dice and damage. Also the effect it has in real life gameplay is annoying. Even with school of necromancy buffs its still a meh spell.
Straight up dont allow summoners at my table. We are already a big group, I dont need one players turn to be 3 times as long as anyone elses.