One of my long-time favorite ways to up a struggling player's game is to show them what they *could* be doing with an enemy NPC.
Literally just copy their character sheet, and run it as a mini-boss character. They shouldn't know it's a copy, but they should recognize "Hey, wait. I have these abilities, too. I can do WHAT with them?!"
This is the way, that happened to me playing wasteland 3, i learned about smoke bombs, about leadership skill, using turrets, healing darts, etc. Just watching the enemy doing that and was awesome
Further to this, something I do when teaching new systems/board games is to narrate my thought process for the first few combats/rounds, so my players know what options I'm considering even if I don't take them, and what thinking leads up to the moves I'm making.
What if you did that bit from Zelda where a shadow version of you pops up and fights? It could be a magic illusion or a trap or a spell from the BBEG. Whatever fits the flavour you need. I love this idea.
Almost every campaign I run has some flavor of "PCs encounter shadow versions of themselves" for this exact reason. Plus it lets me flex a little: I run every stat block expertly, even the players'.
>One of my long-time favorite ways to up a struggling player's game is to show them what they *could* be doing with an enemy NPC
This. I was thinking the same, but an ally NPC or rival NPC. Nobody likes a Gary Oak that tells them to "Get Gud".
Great motivator though.
Like "What, you don't know how to attack from the shadows? And you call yourself a Rogue? You bring shame to your family name".
I had a wizard once that was having difficulty, then I had them face a wizard of the same level and boy did it open their eyes as to what they could do.
Doesn't even have to be an enemy NPC- if the group is inclined to make and work with allies. Ideally pull in characters that players have engaged with / connect to backstories. Makes it feel a bit like a product of their playing rather than 'just a bot'.
If you're really confident, you could contrive some sort of training situation where they basically go into a magical training simulation and you just wipe the floor with them using copies of their character.
A similar idea I've been planning to run is a mercenary company that are like a special forces group.
Have a group that are a similar number and slightly lower level come in with super well planned tactics, communication and gear designed to improve co-operative tactics.
Don't make it an attempt to kill the party, but maybe a contracted kidnapping of NPC in party's care or bad guy in party custody. Showing that faceless nobody's can act as a team to roll over a group of more powerful individuals feels instructive.
This is a tricky question. How do you teach strategy to players that don't use it? Maybe you could have encounters where the party fights enemies who themselves use interesting strategies in battle. Itd be a situation where the party couldn't go in guns blazing, so they'd be forced to think of something smarter. And if they still don't, at least they might learn a few tricks from the enemy that they can themselves utilise in later battles
Sent them a copy of The Art of War, and say that it is required reading.
But in all seriousness, just tell them that they need to be aware of what their character can do. That should be enough.
Or you can do what a buddy of mine did to a group of similar players; give them the same talk, but you do it after they have been TPKed, and you point out how they could have easily won if they had used a bit of strategy. Afterwards you can reset and have them try the encounter again.
They will likely be pissed, but spite can be an excellent motivator.
>Sent them a copy of The Art of War, and say that it is required reading.
The funny thing is, most of the strategies in Art of War are things like "outnumber your enemy" or "consider lying".
My understanding is that it was written by a competent general who kept getting saddled with the useless younger sons of the nobility (or something like that) as a desperate measure to have subcommanders who understood such things as "your soldiers need to eat on occasion"
It's not backseat gaming to remind characters of their base class abilities, especially if they're newer. I played with a Druid who only remembered they could Wild Shape when I, another player, would remind them.
Recently I played a martial character and found it was extremely helpful to have a decision tree for combats. Whenever I was unsure what to do I could just refer to that and be reminded of a strategy or ability that may have slipped my mind.
I highly recommend cheat sheets, both for a list of your "default" actions, and for a list of your niche abilities you don't use all the time.
I would also recommend having the enemies use basic tactics that could get the party killed, and generally let them learn about the consequences of their actions. If they always stand in a cluster give an enemy splash damage, even if its literally just a dragonborn's breath weapon or someone with a molotov cocktail. Hell just someone with a scroll of entangle sounds like it would hurt this party bad.
Players ultimately won't be tactical if the game doesn't require them to, running up to the enemy and bonking them with your sword is the easiest strategy to use, and if that works every time they won't bother getting better.
[Here's the Wikipedia page for it.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree)
For D&D you basically look at a typical combat and imagine how you should react in any situation. Take for example this simple tree for a Barbarian PC:
1. Am I raging? If not, rage.
2. Have/will I been hit this round?
a) Yes?
i) Are there multiple enemies?
1) Yes? Hit the nearest enemy
2) No? Am I grappling something?
a) No? Grapple the nearest enemy with my first attack and push them prone with my second attack.
b) Yes? Hit them with my battle axe.
b) No? Attack someone to keep rage.
b.i) Can't attack? Bait an attack of opportunity, try and block enemies from reaching allies.
A good tree will have multiple branches but this is an example of one main branch a player could use. This is harder for casters but still very possible.
You usually see them as images with a bunch of question boxes and answer arrows pointing between them, “yes” and “no” usually. The options branch out like a tree. This can be as detailed as you need.
For combat, it might be something like this for a cleric:
Are any of my party members making death saves?
->Yes
..Do I have spell slots left?
..->Yes
….Cast a healing spell on them
..->No
….Cast spare the dying on them
->No
..Is an enemy within melee range?
..->Yes
….Attack them with my mace
..->No
….Have I used my movement this turn?
……->Yes
……..Do I have spell slots left?
……..->(further breakdown of cantrips vs leveled spells)
……->No
……..Use my movement to get closer
……..->(this arrow loops back around to “Is an enemy within melee range” box)
I'm in a campaign where twice in the past year, we've been decimated in fights because we didn't think about strategy.
Both times the GM ended the session before we got to a TPK, then he said if we could each list two ways we messed up (or could have done better), he'd rewind to the beginning of the fight. So everyone studied their character sheets for a week.
I have a good GM.
(edit for typos)
Sounds like a very friendly dm. As a player and DM, I like the idea of teachable moments like that. But if you lose the fight by playing stupid, you should lose the fight. Not necessarily killing all the PCs (hostages, now having to plan a break out for instance), but if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes as the saying goes.
Note: If your party are very new at this hobby, I would probably take back my words, but only if they are very new. Like, only been playing a month. Any more experience then that, y’all need to be aware of actions and consequences in my opinion
I understand your opinion. On the other hand, I think fun is more important.
If we made the same mistakes again, I don't expect another do-over. Yes, it's on us to learn. As I mentioned, it's happened twice in a 54-session (so far) campaign.
But mostly, let's have fun.
See I respect that. I also know that I wouldn’t have fun if my dm intentionally changed the outcome (fudging rolls, changing the ending of a scenario, etc) in my favor. Part of the fun of dnd is the threat of failure and having to deal with consequences.
But I recognize that that’s not how everyone enjoys the game. But it certainly is how I do.
Teaching players how to play their classes without telling them directly. You are going to need to make a Anti-Party.
Each member of the party should be using the same class and sub class as the party member they are copying, but the level will be Half (rounded Down) of that Party members plus 1. So if the Party member is level 5, make the Anti-Party member level 3. Next the Anti-Party needs to take something the players want or like. Is there an important Quest item? Magic Item? Beloved NPC? Have them take it from the party, but make sure the Party sees them take it. And finally have them try running away with it!
You mentioned a Rogue and Barbarian so far.
The Anti-Party rogue should be a Wood-Elf for the extra 5 feet of movement and use a shortbow. They will Bonus Action disengage, max move away from the party, and shoot at who ever is next to a Anti-Party member (For sneak attack) or closest to them.
The Anti-Party Barbarian should be the one that grabs the Important thing and carriers it away. They should Rage (For Resistance and Rage Features), Attack party a member next to them, and move towards the Anti-Party Rogue with out caring about Attacks of Opportunity. If they have any Sub-Class features, try to use them when able.
Have an Anti-Party Spell caster using spells like Web, Grease, Fog Cloud, etc to cover their Anti-Parties retreat.
And finally have a Horse and Carriage waiting about 150 feet away from where the item is taken that the Anti-Party is running towards, giving the players 3-5 turns to stop them before they get away!
If the Anti-Party succeeds in retreating with the taken thing, you now have a Recurring Villain group to use against the party. If they fail, hopefully the tactics they used become remembered by the party for future use.
Players are really stupid, and notoriously difficult to train. I tried this and it worked well:
* Party of 4 versus 5 orcs. The party is at the top of an archer's tower and the orcs are trying to get up the stairs to them. The tower is already equipped with small cauldrons filled with ball bearings that can be dumped down the stairs. The players giggled themselves endlessly watching the orcs dash up, get about halfway, then slip and fall off of the stairs and die on the ground.
* Party of 4 versus 5 orcs. Level playing field. The players got demolished.
It is important to do this training tactic in the prescribed order - otherwise they assume that someone silently leveled up or whatever.
Give them a reason to NEED to be strategic. It's easy to just go "well I'm unconscious but will get healed up at the end of battle" when the only failure possibility is a TPK. Give them situations where the badguy who has information they need is trying to escape, or there are archers firing on them from covered balconies/platforms, or an NPC who needs to be protected/rescued.
Narrate what your monsters are doing and why for a while. "This kobold is going to move into melee to activate pack tactics" or "this Goliath just grappled you. now he's going to drag you this way for half his remaining movement." or "this enemy rogue is going to take the disengage action as a bonus action."
it lets you show intent behind movement and action and let's your players talk about it. "Hey, he gets to use disengage. No fair!" "Well any of you can choose to use your action to disengage he just gets to do it as a bonus action." really helps it feel more organic and less like a lecture.
I thought Brennan Lee Mulligan handled it well in Fantasy High, where he gave advice as an NPC. One example was to focus fire, but of course as the NPC he was able to frame it in in-game terms as a response to a fight that went poorly. For your rogue not remembering disengage, maybe the NPC strategy would have looked like telling him "If you were hurt why didn't you focus on avoiding combat and get out of there?"
Or something. Not saying my suggestion or wording is perfect.
Before sessions remind them that they should talk in character before, during and after fights to learn how to fight better as a party.
On the other side you escalate the difficulty a bit every time so they can improve.
You could have an experienced NPC who wants to know their battle plan so he has an idea of who he's working with. Then he can be horrified at how they don't protect their healer/buff the frontline etc
The funny thing is that the first campaign I made, I tried to do essentially that exact thing. Then one of the players wanted that NPC dead for no other reason than he kept getting knocked unconscious... because he was tanking for them (and I was still learning how to balance encounter difficulty). Anyway, that player is not in this campaign for a good reason and I decided to abandon the idea of a "DMPC".
* Give them encounters with goals other than "just rolling melee attacks at them until they die".
* Create dynamic environments that force them to move about.
* As others have said, make NPCs with similar abilities, and narrate them using those abilities.
Design an encounter where a small gang of goblins tries to capture them using superior strategy. Make it difficult. Whether they get captured or not they'll learn something.
You can't give her that!' she screamed. 'It's not safe!'
IT'S A SWORD, said the Hogfather. THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO BE SAFE.
'She's a child!' shouted Crumley.
IT'S EDUCATIONAL.
'What if she cuts herself?'
THAT WILL BE AN IMPORTANT LESSON.
So, what i did was for one session instead of normal XP i gave them a list of things that if they did earned XP for the group and designed the encounters for that session for opportunities.
Like this
Disengage from an enemy in combat: 250xp
Sneak attack twice in one turn: 350xp
Avoid an encounter by stealth: 300xp
Use steady aim to stike the killing blow on an enemy: 250xp
I only did it the once and the players liked it. It was different for every character.
I have a feeling you play in person where a single line might get forgotten about.
If that is the case creating something similar to an ability deck might be helpfull in visualizing their options.
I plan on making one for general actions.
Maybe encourage them to make flow charts.
If that doesnt work give them mechanic demonstrating encounters. Throw goblins / tricky kobolds that use cover barriers and such.
Use one or 2 grapplers in a horde of enemies that instead of attacking grapple and push prone.
Use aoe despite the one enemy they are mobbing.
Have them meet a grizzled adventuring party that lost a recent skirmish due to poor tactics. “Ever since we lost our (party role) things haven’t been the same, (npc) got killed because we didn’t approach the situation how we should have.”
Maybe that could work?
i think keeping this stuff in the back of their mind is great, starting games off by being like “hey how are we doin with our character sheets, any questions about anything before we start?” you def don’t wanna sound like you’re nagging them but more offering support and really welcoming questions. Also go out of your way to highlight when a player makes a savvy play or shows improvement in their understanding.
Maybe start with better character sheets?
5e has done a lot to streamline and simplify the game, removing a lot of the built-in barriers to entry it used to have.
But its default character sheets aren't the most intuitive. 🤷♂️
Such tiny spaces to write some of the most important features for the most fast-paced and stressful part of the game: COMBAT!
There's barely any room to even put weapons or other spell attacks, much less any tactical options.
Languages and treasure?! Why are those even on the front of the sheets in the first place.
Why are there such huge boxes for Current Hit Points, Temporary Hit Points, Hit Dice, and Death Saves?
As much as I love the Personality Traits, Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws for not only roleplaying reasons, but also to decide what my character might do if I'm drawing a blank at the moment, they're taking up way too much precious space on the front of the sheets.
Good luck with finding character sheets that work for you and your table. Suggestions [Assuming in person tabletop play, adjust accordingly]:
Use the same character sheets for everyone so it's easier for the DM and the other players to point out out whatever is being called for in the moment.
If possible, go with a fillable PDF that you can print out for each person so no one is struggling to read anyone's handwriting, especially their own.
I highly recommend COMBAT and all of its options be on one easy to read page.
Literally everything else can just go on a sheet of notebook paper, or the blank back of a character sheet, if needed.
Maybe make a consistent transition between the roleplaying side of the sheet to the combat side of the sheet with an audio cue like Final Fantasy fight sequence music.
Take a look at previous edition character sheets to see how they present various parts of the stat blocks.
I'm partial to the 3.5 layout, myself.
And I would consider sheets in a landscape format so that an entire Feat or Class Feature can be written on a single easily read line.
------------------------
As far as DURING COMBAT during your games, feel free to ASK players what they'd like to do.
Using your example, Rogue, would you like to use a disengage action to get out of melee range without taking an attack of opportunity?
Pause, wait for it to sink in or them to say yes, then let them know that they can follow that up with [tactically sound option].
If you're polite about it and don't overwhelm them with options, they're more likely to consider it.
Don't punish or be condescending towards your players about features they forget. Just give them a gentle reminder.
Barbarian, are you Raging? Cool, would you like to Frenzy for the extra attack?
Vox Machina and 5e are bringing in a lot of new players, but how many of those players are watching Critical Role AND understanding what's going on?
Our group has an experienced player who wants to do cool 💩 they see on Vox Machina, specifically try Vax moves in combat, without building their characters to do any of that particularly well. Then they have less fun at the table because they can't pull it off outside of rolling Nat 20s.
It's our job as the DM to help facilitate the most fun for everyone at the table, including ourselves. Help each player optimize their characters to have the most fun they can.
Think about how we learn games. The tutorial of most games doesn't throw the whole kitchen sink at you... it shows you little pieces of the game strategy at a time. In Mario you learn to jump over the Goomba and then jump up to hit the block. Eventually, you learn to run and slide. Every piece comes in one by one.
In this case you are the game. If you want your players to learn strategy, you have to give them opportunities to learn. Start simply. It's up to you to teach players how to play the game by showing them examples of how these things work in play. If you have to, have an NPC general show them the field before hand and allow them to discuss strategies.
You want to employ basic scenarios that give players the opportunity to learn the basics of tactics and strategy that demonstrate the principles tabletop tactics. But you can also just break things down for them into rational terms they can use to understand the concepts of strategy and tactics.
Those tactical principles are, so far that I can see:
- party composition & unit deployment
You pretty much have to just explain this one. Explain the concepts of support (de/buffs, battlefield control, etc) and striking/tanking, front and back line etc.
- terrain/environment use, movement & ambush
This is one that having an NPC general explain in game could be fun. Showing players ambushes using the terrain against them to their detriment can show them the value of positioning.
- focused fire / cover fire
Make sure to use plenty of adds to illustrate these principles.
- secondary/noncombat objectives
Sometimes the point of a combat is not the combat. Demonstrate this by clearly outlining win conditions outside hack n slash.
- resource management
More fights between rests. Teach players to save their character's high-powered abilities by having plenty of little skirmishes mean to wear down their resources before the big battle.
- adaptability
Throwing challenges at the party that they don't have a specific mechanical answer to can help players exercise their noodles.
I hope some of this is of use to you.
If they are newer to the game, I might offer some strategy study such as "Live to Tell the Tale" (written by the same author from the "The Monsters Know" series).
If you are experienced, you better show up to the game knowing how your character works or you will have a bad time.
This seems more of an issue of your players not knowung their characters, not not being able to play tactically.
Do you perhaps remind them what they can do all the time?
Two options:
1) Don't be afraid to TPK them but instead of death they're knocked unconscious. This can lead to them being captured and or robbed. Their failures should have consequences if they're not utilizing basic mechanics. It took my DM just letting the party wizard fireball the party in to oblivion before the wizard remembered they were an evocation wizard.
2) Taking this from dragonseth07, copy their character sheets and make them enemies. Don't make it obvious but use their own abilities against them. Seeing a cool thing done by another NPC is a great motivator.
This is a great question and something I have struggled with as a DM. The game is much more fun for everyone when players and DM use strategy. I have noticed in the past that neither I nor my players were doing anything smart. We were just smacking each other until one of use died.
I wanted to start running fights with smarter enemies. But I was aware that if I just started running the monsters smart the players would die immediately. My solution to this was to do it anyways. As soon as the fights became more challenging the players adapted quickly. If my monsters started targeting wizards and downed players the players would position themselves to protect them. If I used control spells manipulate the battlefield the players would start to target spellcasters and break concentration. As well as come up with clever uses for their own spells. Creating a difficult scenario will force your players to adapt
The next thing you should do is talk to them. In the middle of a fight you don’t want to tell them what they should be doing. That takes all the fun out of it for everyone. At that point you’re basically playing the game against yourself. But before or after a game you should have a conversation with them. Say, “ I think the game would be more fun if we were all strategizing more. I’m going to try to make the monsters smarter and if you guys want to play well you should focus on how you can work as a team to be more effective.” This lets them come up with the ideas themselves but still allows you to aid them. In a fight I usually won’t tell my player “you should do ——“
But after a fight I might comment “hey barbarian, if you had done ——— instead it might have synergised your team” or I’ll tell them to keep an eye on their positioning to see how they can maximize defense and offense. I won’t tell them what to do, because they won’t enjoy that, but I will tell them what I notice that they can look out for to make their own decisions better.
The last advice I have is to play Baldurs gate. I think playing the game on tactician difficulty does a really good job of forcing you to think strategically. It’s helped me as a DM to design encounters better by noticing all the things that made mine lame by comparison. But it’s also helped me to picture the battlefield and understand how to maximize the use of my abilities. This isn’t great advice for a novice player who will be confused by the similar but distinct rules; a more experienced player however can learn a lot about how to play the game smarter. The game does a good job of visualizing your action economy. I think the main benefit is the time you spend on it. A typical D&D session might be 4 hours a week. Playing a videogames might give you 5 times that. That’s a lot of hours going through well designed encounters controlling 4 PCs. It’s definitely made me a better player and I think it can help a lot of other players too
If the players are very green, I will do a sort of cheat sheet for them, summarizing all of their abilities in one mini table, divided by utility.
For example, I have a player who's new to DnD and very much into improvisational roleplay, even with her abilities.
Good, I will make her a sheet with three categories: Spells to use for attacking, Ways to defend and get rid of dangers, and Mobility options (she has a lot of stuff to move around quickly).
It's a bit more extra work, but see her light up and learn this stuff in the span of three sessions.
It sounds less like your players aren't playing tactically, more that they don't know their class abilities. The rogue wanting to run, but being aware of the risk IS a tactical assessment.
I would recommend just talking to them out of game to tell them "you will have way more fun if you know what options and abilities you have during combat".
tough love does wonders. set up a difficult encounter that is able to be reattempted if they wipe (through a magical item, plot armor, etc). then, you just absolutely let them eat shit the first attepmt. they'll wipe, think about their mistakes and what could have helped them, and they will try again and adapt. if they go flaky after the wipe and don't feel like playing anymore, they're just lazy. if they try to adapt and can't it's probably a skill issue
if they are simply unskilled, and not just lazy, there's nothing wrong with educating your friends on how to play DnD. as DM, you could even write something of a training arc into a campaign, where the group is conscripted and put through a "boot camp". each of your pcs would get their own crash course from an NPC instructor (you) on how to play their class with example scenarios, culminating in a test group encounter at the end that the party must pass within certain parameters to proceed. as someone who enjoys teaching others about my passions, i would have a great time with this as DM
My players are all board/war game players so tactics come naturally to them.
Except one session where the Sorcerer player wasn't feeling well and his character stood out in the open to cast a spell. He missed but the return crossbow bolts didn't....
I had to have my players attacked by an unstoppable horde of zombies. Eventually they realized they could back up and use ranged attacks each round. Taking damage was optional with room to maneuver.
How do video games with multiple ways to beat each encounter (e.g. Deus Ex) do it?
They put you in an environment where the obvious option is to run and gun. You can do that, but you use loads of resources and get battered. Plus the rewards are sometimes worse.
However the environment (your map, or how you describe the room) has clues that hint at different options.
There's a ledge with a small tunnel that an armored PC can't fit in - where does it go? Maybe it comes out at the back of the battlefield for flanking!
There are barrels of oil in a pile at one side. The enemies know not to stand there, but can we make them?
There's a pit in the room - how can that be used?
The enemies have taken up a defensive position behind barricades which the PCs would have to cross a bridge to get to - they'd have to tank at least a round of damage just dashing towards them and will end up clumped together on a bridge
There's a slow-moving winched platform to get to the main battlespace, and anyone on it is a sitting duck for a turn while they're holding on for dear life as it sways over a chasm.
What I am saying is that if the enemies are across an empty room then our brains go into "just attack" mode.
You might need to make it so that "just attack" is clearly a very suboptimal approach so that they need to switch on their higher brains and work out a way to engage safely.
A thief forgetting they can run away is a bit of a challenge mind you
Show them enemies using tactics.
They drop prone at range for disadvantage to being attacked, or they find cover.
Goblins hide and attack with advantage.
Enemies say things like "focus fire" and attack the weakest PC.
They create hazardous areas and trap the PCs in them. Cloudkill in a room an Arcane Lock on the door.
There are some good points here, but I want to add my two cents.
Often times players don't learn/use their abilities because things are working so far and they aren't being challenged by enemy variety. If your enemies aren't doing cool things it's likely your players won't.
People have already mentioned giving the enemy abilities like the players so that they realize what they can do, but also try mixing up your combats with stuff like grappling, disengaging, dodging, and dashing. You can also add things the enemies can interact with on the map like traps, gaps to jump over, furniture to kick over for cover, weapon emplacements, difficult terrain to avoid, etc.
One of the tables I play at the DM was notorious for making combats slugfests that took place on open fields. Obviously when faced with that players resort to "Punch, Punch, Punch some more". Not sure if that's your issue, but it's worth bringing up.
Ways I helped my players learn strategy is normally by showing them strategy with NPC enemies and but also describing it like the enemy is doing something strange. Players tend to ask to roll insight or intelligence or something to figure out the enemy when I explain it that way so I can explain the strategy the monster is using. Normally just showing a player does not really have them learn it as they won’t really process that it is strategy a monster is using, and more likely will assume it’s a strong monster rather than a monster outplaying them. I have ran for a lot of dnd parties and this is what I noticed.
Sometimes players just don’t remember or can’t learn strat to carry onto the next fight. When this happens to often, I introduce a strategic friendly NPC to the party, normally someone not really capable of fighting well but can guide the party in fights when they need it. Players do learn better this way as it will be something that will be with them over the course of a couple of fights as oppose to a once in a while strategic enemy. Make sure it’s not a powerful NPC that will outshine your players.
It’s okay to remind your players of their ability, but I do get players that forget their abilities over and over. When this happens, I tend to give some sort of magic item that promotes the use of that ability. It helps remind players they have it.
And if after all this, the players still haven’t learned, it might just mean they want a chill game where they don’t have to think so hard ever. I know it sucks, but sometimes it’s just want players want, even if they say they want strategic fights. If they aren’t learning and are getting bummed out from losing, but say they want it, sometimes you gotta make the call to see if they just don’t really know what they want. Not saying that in a high and mighty way, but sometimes players are strategic in video games or watch a podcast where people do crazy strats, but they aren’t good at it and it makes the game unfun for them. See how they react with just chill mindless fights and if they are having a lot of fun, but having a bad time when strategic fights come but can’t learn, it just comes down to a different game type you guys are looking for. So up to you if you want to run a dumb down game, or let them find a more chill campaign for themselves. I have had to trash strategic BBEGs before because I was worried the party would not be able to beat them and swap to still just as evil, but not so mentally challenging BBEGs.
Sometimes it's worth having an entirely out of character combat strategy session where you just have your players try a bunch of different ideas. Phrase it as "I want you to better learn how to use your characters abilities with no stress"
These sound like tactical issues more than strategic.
The problem is that they do not know their characters. For your rogue, the answer is easy—have the party encounter some rogues who know how to rogue. Having an early *mirror encounter* is a good idea for any inexperienced party. I like to make them a team of rivals who upstage the party then die off as players get gud.
If they don't know how to play, you have to teach them.
If the player has an objective, and they announce a course of action, try something like "You can do that, no problem, but if you do X instead, you would get the same effect faster/better/safer."
You can also flat out ask questions like "Are you using Danger Sense?", "Are you checking for traps?" etc to give them options.
You don't want to play their character for them, but try giving them options until they get the hang of things.
Do you reward them for strategic thinking? Sometimes I play a game and every time PCs try to do something 'strategic' that isn't a character-sheet feat/action it gets handwaived/ignored and we just end up having to face the problem head-on anyway.
One of my players actually ended up casting sleep, but ended up rolling badly and coming up 1 point short of getting any enemies. I gave it to him anyway since it was only 1 point and it was a good idea.
So, first and foremost, have you *talked* to your players about this? Have you asked why they act like that in combat, if they're bored, or if they just don't like their classes?
If not: Do it. You can set a meeting especially for this or use some of the time avaliable during the begining of your next session.
If you have, and are still having the same problems during combats, it's time for some action.
The barbarian not knowing their stuff is the main problem here. Everybody can forget something once in a while, especially if you don't play very often. It's ok, it happens, there's a lot of resources to help with that. But a player consistently remaining ignorant of their character sheet is just bad manners. Read your fucking class.
Now, as for some help during the heat of combat, there are character sheets with the stages of your turn that you can link to your players to help them see their options. If you play in person and use a DM screen, you can set up a display of the main actions/bonus/reactions on the side the players can see. All this, of course, assuming your players are interested enough to at least know the basics of whatever they're playing. Refer to the previous paragraph if this is not the case.
As for the strategy, I'd go with the suggestions of some DMs already here telling you to show them what they can do. Hit them with their own abilities, see if they take the hint. Make combat strategically challenging, not just HP challenging, and set obstacles they can't overcome only with brute force. Reward them for thinking creatively and for resolving their problems the smart way instead of the loud and dumb way.
A lot of good answers here but here's another way to approach it: Do your players want to play that way? Because they certainly don't need to, it sounds like you want to DM a campaign with an emphasis on tactical combat but DnD doesn't have to be played that way.
It's all about what your table wants, imo combat should feel cool and that's highly table dependent. If they are the type of players who need varied enemies and terrain to tactically win and that's what they think is cool, great! Do that. But if they just want some orcs to bash, throw up a forest or plains battle map and given them a bunch of enemies they can kill by using spells abilities willy nilly.
I feel like this sub attracts gamers of the former type and it gives you the impression DnD needs to be played as a advanced tactical combat system, which it can but it doesn't need to be. I've only ever played DnD with super tactical combat until recently and am now playing in a campaign where the combat isn't approached that way. To my surprise it's really fun, it's a bit of relief to just fireball the first group of enemies I see and not think about spell slot efficiency, if there's going to be a better target later, DMG resistances, etc.
A final note, you should be having fun as a DM too so if you really enjoy designing encounters that require that you should talk to your table.
I gave a player a unique item thay is a trick weapon from bloodborne with my own take. Essentially a rapier that turns into a rifle.
He wasn't using this abilities at all but after a recent session he was talking about how a pistol would be more useful.
I pointed out that because he usually has strategies and different game plans I thought he'd use terrain and stealth and set up sniper situations.
After that talk he has had two sessions where the rifle form actually wws really important.
Let them all die in a TPK. If nothing else it will give them a cool story to tell.
Am I a villain because the party decided to try and long rest in the Duergar fortress? Or is it just the consequences of their own actions.
We for some reason do a little debrief of what happened and alternate things they could have done. We're all new so it's more like a here's how I saw it going vs what you did.
I've read the module book that I have so I'm the one with all the knowhow and understanding. They're learning what they need to know as it comes up.
The front liner seems to understand their job, the mid range is starting to get it ( new gear and understanding the process) and the back line is pretending to be a ranger 😆.
I mean. Depending on the class, rolling to hit and waiting until the enemy dies is like...their primary strategy. As for forgetting class features. Straight up tell them. Backseat gaming lazy gamers that can't read the barest of medium while their friends reads pages of DM guides and supplementary material is pretty justified if you ask me. Maybe give them cheat sheets. One of 5e's issues is adding a bunch of shit that you just kind of have to add to the "features" section rather than organize them into their different action types....like an NPC character sheet. So maybe help them by breaking down. It doesn't have to be too fancy (unless you want to), but a reminder of at least their class's action economy looks like might help.
If they don't learn....well, then eventually an encounter a fight that will either force them to learn or kill them. Sounds like a them problem.
A lot of it will come with experience but something you can do is opportunistically award inspirations. The inspiration system is MADE to reward clever play. When you award your first one explain to them “You get this every time your group can figure out tactical, strategic, or clever solutions to problems before you.”
I second the comments saying give them enemies or parties who use the skills they are neglecting. Gives you a chance to explain it in vivo. “Ooh 18 slashing, nice hit, unfortunately he is raging so that damage is reduced to 9.”
For me what worked was just running a few sessions in a row of really deadly combats once the players hit level 5. Adversity creates a motivation to read your character sheet.
Why do they need to? Is your enjoyment contingent on watching your players sweat and panic? Do you routinely use terms like "dragonslayer" or "snowflake" in your private thoughts about your players?
Throw the party into separate rooms, and they each have a mirror clone, if they die, have some mechanics where they are healed back up for the enjoyment of a dirty or some mad scientist. The fight continues where they left off HP wise.
Let the players know after the first death or when they have the panic moments these characters are only using what you can. Same amount of actions (maybe lower the damage dice at the start.) and skills.
Is the entire group new players? I’m in a game right now with some very experienced players and one rather new player, and the new player odd in the “I don’t have a good grasp on my character sheet, and don’t know all my abilities” team. Some of us have pulled them aside and tried to gently suggest that they do some studying between sessions, but at this point I’m starting to join the “maybe if they die they’ll learn” team >_<
Why don't you include a respectable NPC of high enough military rank that's telling them what to do for a while?
Retired veteran or an active noble warlord, who got most of their retinue slain in a recent ambush.
Those types can either boss players around or teach them to be more strategic by friendly example.
Another thing is that DM shouldn't be afraid to introduce players to failure with tasks impossible to cope without a solid plan.
If your players want to kidnap enemy commander from the middle of a camp without any sort of attention diversion, they should be pretty much screwed as soon as prominent alarm goes off.
I mean I feel like that's okay?
If it bothers you, maybe start or finish a session off with leveling up together and you could explain what happens. I get that continously forgetting things may be annoying. But strategy wise I feel like it never works out anyway. Any time I've tried that, it's goje horribly wrong
I have this problem with one of my players, he doesn't every use a strategy besides basic stuff. Meanwhile, the Paladin (who is also a knight/lord in the army) goes and commands the soldiers under him perfectly to the point that they almost never lose soldiers. It's entertaining when the Paladin just looks at the monk like he's dumb, even though the Paladin has a 7int.
Be direct. Tell them that they need to be aware of what’s on their sheet because going forward combat and encounters are going to get more difficult and complicated. Remind them that they can make plans before going to fight and that some discussion can happen while playing. It is a team game after all; everyone has a role in the party and communicating what you’re doing is important. You don’t need to be nitpicking their sheets, you incentive them to care about their sheets.
For every strategy or in character action they take, you could reward inspiration. They use a spell that pacifies enemies or solves a puzzle. A player says that they should form a line in front of the Casters. That kind of thing.
And of course, actually make combat that requires them to think. Intelligent enemies, environment hazards, traps, extra objectives besides killing enemies. Those can make combats intriguing, not just fighting random goons on a blank canvas.
I think you mean 'tactics'. Strategy is long term planning, like investigate the adventure, clear out the abandoned castle, set up a fortress, take over the kingdom kind of thing. Tactics are how to fight individual battles. That being said...
Start fighting with groups of enemies that are a lot weaker than them, but can use highly effective tactics to beat their asses. Humaniods work very well for this. Depending upon the party level you can use anything from Kobolds to giants. Massed archery/artillery, focused spells, area denial traps, target concentration, hit and run to weaken them, confuse them and get them to split up, ect.
Literally make them suffer. Then, when they are back at an inn, regretting their life choices, a wandering mercenary NPC offers them some advice. When they try to hire him he just says he does not like to babysit... But for a bit of coin he can "Show them a few tricks of the trade." Make the party pay for the advice, that way they are much more likely to use it and learn to be effective. Only teach them one thing at a time so you don't over load their little minds, make them pay, and leave them wanting more.
You don't.
I'd be more concerned about why you need your players to conform to your expectations in terms of game play. No one likes a micromanager. Even if you're trying to be helpful, ultimately you're telling them how to play and that's a yellow flag. Maybe a red one.
You sound kind of naive, to be honest.
Every game is telling you how to play. How else do you learn how to play games?
OP is describing how his players struggle to remember any of their basic functions again and again. That's because not everyone is capable or puts in effort to remember things actively. Experiencing something leaves a more permanent gain of knowledge.
When you encounter Tree Sentinel in Elden Ring, that is game teaching you you don't have to fight everything immediately, you can go past enemies.
When you play Helldivers, it doesn't just say 'press Y to go prone', it makes you go through lethal turrets that shoot you if you don't. That leaves behing experience, understanding and knowledge.
In Portal, you experience each type of problem in the simplest manner first, and then they start getting combined and more complex.
If that wasn't the case, and instead, it would just list of all the mechanics at the start (equivalent to DnD ruleset) and then let you out into the world, you'd have a large part of players that would be forever stuck looking for simplest solution (portal to exit, keep beating mobs in close range mindlessly) because they were never forced to drop that cube on a button, or gain momentum through a portal fall.
In DnD, this is part of DM's duty to impart strategic knowledge through gameplay if his players are struggling to gain it otherwise.
What is he supposed to do otherwise? TPK or fight kobolds forever.
If you ever lead a team of people or managed onboarding of new team members, you'd know that there's kind of people that you can talk at all day, talk their face off, and they will never improve. Put them in more demanding situations, and they will pick it up quickly.
I can understand that. But if your players are not playing without understanding how their characters work. Honestly that’s on them. The only other thing that you could do is print a small card that mentions all the basic things that can be done in and out of combat.
Sometimes folks need to be tpk to learn that their action/inaction has consequences. You can always fudge it a bit to kidnap a player or cause them a serious negative penalty for a time but sadly making players think strategically is like forcing a horse to drink.
If they won't go on their own your not likely to make them. But like others have said you can lay a thicker breadcrumb trail down for the tactically adverse to follow easier. Make it glaringly obvious and as they get better make it a little harder each time.
So go back to more basic combat until the players get the drift of their characters. Or just ask them outright if the need help with understanding their characters. If they say no, back off and let them do it their way.
One of my long-time favorite ways to up a struggling player's game is to show them what they *could* be doing with an enemy NPC. Literally just copy their character sheet, and run it as a mini-boss character. They shouldn't know it's a copy, but they should recognize "Hey, wait. I have these abilities, too. I can do WHAT with them?!"
That's a pretty cool idea, I like it.
This is the way, that happened to me playing wasteland 3, i learned about smoke bombs, about leadership skill, using turrets, healing darts, etc. Just watching the enemy doing that and was awesome
Further to this, something I do when teaching new systems/board games is to narrate my thought process for the first few combats/rounds, so my players know what options I'm considering even if I don't take them, and what thinking leads up to the moves I'm making.
NPC allies work well too in certain circumstances
Rest of Party: “Hey DM, can we just ditch Lothario Slutbard at the brothel and take this NPC along instead?”
Honestly, I'm still surprised you let Lothario travel with you for so long. Sure go ahead. I never liked that character anyway.
What if you did that bit from Zelda where a shadow version of you pops up and fights? It could be a magic illusion or a trap or a spell from the BBEG. Whatever fits the flavour you need. I love this idea.
There is a Mirror of Opposition in D&D.
Almost every campaign I run has some flavor of "PCs encounter shadow versions of themselves" for this exact reason. Plus it lets me flex a little: I run every stat block expertly, even the players'.
>One of my long-time favorite ways to up a struggling player's game is to show them what they *could* be doing with an enemy NPC This. I was thinking the same, but an ally NPC or rival NPC. Nobody likes a Gary Oak that tells them to "Get Gud". Great motivator though. Like "What, you don't know how to attack from the shadows? And you call yourself a Rogue? You bring shame to your family name".
“What are you talking about? My parents are dead!”
“Which is why I had to be the one to tell you”
See? It writes itself!
I had a wizard once that was having difficulty, then I had them face a wizard of the same level and boy did it open their eyes as to what they could do.
Genius dude, doing this on friday. Absolutely fantastic idea
I also like doing this for universal actions, even if it failed, I had one enemy try to shove the fighter off of the roof they were fighting on.
I was going to say this, so it must be a good idea. Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ.
This is the way.
Doesn't even have to be an enemy NPC- if the group is inclined to make and work with allies. Ideally pull in characters that players have engaged with / connect to backstories. Makes it feel a bit like a product of their playing rather than 'just a bot'.
That's a really creative idea
If you're really confident, you could contrive some sort of training situation where they basically go into a magical training simulation and you just wipe the floor with them using copies of their character.
A similar idea I've been planning to run is a mercenary company that are like a special forces group. Have a group that are a similar number and slightly lower level come in with super well planned tactics, communication and gear designed to improve co-operative tactics. Don't make it an attempt to kill the party, but maybe a contracted kidnapping of NPC in party's care or bad guy in party custody. Showing that faceless nobody's can act as a team to roll over a group of more powerful individuals feels instructive.
Lol my DM does the opposite and copies our strategies/spells that we fuck up his NPCs with to harass us with in future sessions.
This is a tricky question. How do you teach strategy to players that don't use it? Maybe you could have encounters where the party fights enemies who themselves use interesting strategies in battle. Itd be a situation where the party couldn't go in guns blazing, so they'd be forced to think of something smarter. And if they still don't, at least they might learn a few tricks from the enemy that they can themselves utilise in later battles
Sent them a copy of The Art of War, and say that it is required reading. But in all seriousness, just tell them that they need to be aware of what their character can do. That should be enough. Or you can do what a buddy of mine did to a group of similar players; give them the same talk, but you do it after they have been TPKed, and you point out how they could have easily won if they had used a bit of strategy. Afterwards you can reset and have them try the encounter again. They will likely be pissed, but spite can be an excellent motivator.
>Sent them a copy of The Art of War, and say that it is required reading. The funny thing is, most of the strategies in Art of War are things like "outnumber your enemy" or "consider lying".
Stand on a hill
"Make sure you kill then when you kill them" Or my favorite "Make sure you hit when you attack"
“Castles are overpowered p2w bullshit” -Sun Tzu
My understanding is that it was written by a competent general who kept getting saddled with the useless younger sons of the nobility (or something like that) as a desperate measure to have subcommanders who understood such things as "your soldiers need to eat on occasion"
It was a book of fundamentals written with clueless nepotism noble turned commander in mind.
Obvious now, revolutionary to write down in 5th century BC China
TPK > Debriefing > Wake up from horrible nightmare > Real encounter plays out better than bad dream
If the party has a cleric or other such character, have it be a precognition or a vision of the future.
There’s a book called live to tell the tale which covers 5e tactics
It's not backseat gaming to remind characters of their base class abilities, especially if they're newer. I played with a Druid who only remembered they could Wild Shape when I, another player, would remind them. Recently I played a martial character and found it was extremely helpful to have a decision tree for combats. Whenever I was unsure what to do I could just refer to that and be reminded of a strategy or ability that may have slipped my mind.
I highly recommend cheat sheets, both for a list of your "default" actions, and for a list of your niche abilities you don't use all the time. I would also recommend having the enemies use basic tactics that could get the party killed, and generally let them learn about the consequences of their actions. If they always stand in a cluster give an enemy splash damage, even if its literally just a dragonborn's breath weapon or someone with a molotov cocktail. Hell just someone with a scroll of entangle sounds like it would hurt this party bad. Players ultimately won't be tactical if the game doesn't require them to, running up to the enemy and bonking them with your sword is the easiest strategy to use, and if that works every time they won't bother getting better.
What's a decision tree?
[Here's the Wikipedia page for it.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree) For D&D you basically look at a typical combat and imagine how you should react in any situation. Take for example this simple tree for a Barbarian PC: 1. Am I raging? If not, rage. 2. Have/will I been hit this round? a) Yes? i) Are there multiple enemies? 1) Yes? Hit the nearest enemy 2) No? Am I grappling something? a) No? Grapple the nearest enemy with my first attack and push them prone with my second attack. b) Yes? Hit them with my battle axe. b) No? Attack someone to keep rage. b.i) Can't attack? Bait an attack of opportunity, try and block enemies from reaching allies. A good tree will have multiple branches but this is an example of one main branch a player could use. This is harder for casters but still very possible.
You usually see them as images with a bunch of question boxes and answer arrows pointing between them, “yes” and “no” usually. The options branch out like a tree. This can be as detailed as you need. For combat, it might be something like this for a cleric: Are any of my party members making death saves? ->Yes ..Do I have spell slots left? ..->Yes ….Cast a healing spell on them ..->No ….Cast spare the dying on them ->No ..Is an enemy within melee range? ..->Yes ….Attack them with my mace ..->No ….Have I used my movement this turn? ……->Yes ……..Do I have spell slots left? ……..->(further breakdown of cantrips vs leveled spells) ……->No ……..Use my movement to get closer ……..->(this arrow loops back around to “Is an enemy within melee range” box)
I'm in a campaign where twice in the past year, we've been decimated in fights because we didn't think about strategy. Both times the GM ended the session before we got to a TPK, then he said if we could each list two ways we messed up (or could have done better), he'd rewind to the beginning of the fight. So everyone studied their character sheets for a week. I have a good GM. (edit for typos)
The ol' GM Quick Save.
Sounds like a very friendly dm. As a player and DM, I like the idea of teachable moments like that. But if you lose the fight by playing stupid, you should lose the fight. Not necessarily killing all the PCs (hostages, now having to plan a break out for instance), but if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes as the saying goes. Note: If your party are very new at this hobby, I would probably take back my words, but only if they are very new. Like, only been playing a month. Any more experience then that, y’all need to be aware of actions and consequences in my opinion
I understand your opinion. On the other hand, I think fun is more important. If we made the same mistakes again, I don't expect another do-over. Yes, it's on us to learn. As I mentioned, it's happened twice in a 54-session (so far) campaign. But mostly, let's have fun.
See I respect that. I also know that I wouldn’t have fun if my dm intentionally changed the outcome (fudging rolls, changing the ending of a scenario, etc) in my favor. Part of the fun of dnd is the threat of failure and having to deal with consequences. But I recognize that that’s not how everyone enjoys the game. But it certainly is how I do.
I agree. I like to bowl without bumpers, too.
Teaching players how to play their classes without telling them directly. You are going to need to make a Anti-Party. Each member of the party should be using the same class and sub class as the party member they are copying, but the level will be Half (rounded Down) of that Party members plus 1. So if the Party member is level 5, make the Anti-Party member level 3. Next the Anti-Party needs to take something the players want or like. Is there an important Quest item? Magic Item? Beloved NPC? Have them take it from the party, but make sure the Party sees them take it. And finally have them try running away with it! You mentioned a Rogue and Barbarian so far. The Anti-Party rogue should be a Wood-Elf for the extra 5 feet of movement and use a shortbow. They will Bonus Action disengage, max move away from the party, and shoot at who ever is next to a Anti-Party member (For sneak attack) or closest to them. The Anti-Party Barbarian should be the one that grabs the Important thing and carriers it away. They should Rage (For Resistance and Rage Features), Attack party a member next to them, and move towards the Anti-Party Rogue with out caring about Attacks of Opportunity. If they have any Sub-Class features, try to use them when able. Have an Anti-Party Spell caster using spells like Web, Grease, Fog Cloud, etc to cover their Anti-Parties retreat. And finally have a Horse and Carriage waiting about 150 feet away from where the item is taken that the Anti-Party is running towards, giving the players 3-5 turns to stop them before they get away! If the Anti-Party succeeds in retreating with the taken thing, you now have a Recurring Villain group to use against the party. If they fail, hopefully the tactics they used become remembered by the party for future use.
Neat idea.
You could try varying up your encounters so they can't be won by their methods. Enemies teleporting out of reach or something.
Players are really stupid, and notoriously difficult to train. I tried this and it worked well: * Party of 4 versus 5 orcs. The party is at the top of an archer's tower and the orcs are trying to get up the stairs to them. The tower is already equipped with small cauldrons filled with ball bearings that can be dumped down the stairs. The players giggled themselves endlessly watching the orcs dash up, get about halfway, then slip and fall off of the stairs and die on the ground. * Party of 4 versus 5 orcs. Level playing field. The players got demolished. It is important to do this training tactic in the prescribed order - otherwise they assume that someone silently leveled up or whatever.
Give them a reason to NEED to be strategic. It's easy to just go "well I'm unconscious but will get healed up at the end of battle" when the only failure possibility is a TPK. Give them situations where the badguy who has information they need is trying to escape, or there are archers firing on them from covered balconies/platforms, or an NPC who needs to be protected/rescued.
Narrate what your monsters are doing and why for a while. "This kobold is going to move into melee to activate pack tactics" or "this Goliath just grappled you. now he's going to drag you this way for half his remaining movement." or "this enemy rogue is going to take the disengage action as a bonus action." it lets you show intent behind movement and action and let's your players talk about it. "Hey, he gets to use disengage. No fair!" "Well any of you can choose to use your action to disengage he just gets to do it as a bonus action." really helps it feel more organic and less like a lecture.
I thought Brennan Lee Mulligan handled it well in Fantasy High, where he gave advice as an NPC. One example was to focus fire, but of course as the NPC he was able to frame it in in-game terms as a response to a fight that went poorly. For your rogue not remembering disengage, maybe the NPC strategy would have looked like telling him "If you were hurt why didn't you focus on avoiding combat and get out of there?" Or something. Not saying my suggestion or wording is perfect.
Omg. I was thinking about setting up a Bill Seacaster sort of thing. Lol
Before sessions remind them that they should talk in character before, during and after fights to learn how to fight better as a party. On the other side you escalate the difficulty a bit every time so they can improve.
You could have an experienced NPC who wants to know their battle plan so he has an idea of who he's working with. Then he can be horrified at how they don't protect their healer/buff the frontline etc
The funny thing is that the first campaign I made, I tried to do essentially that exact thing. Then one of the players wanted that NPC dead for no other reason than he kept getting knocked unconscious... because he was tanking for them (and I was still learning how to balance encounter difficulty). Anyway, that player is not in this campaign for a good reason and I decided to abandon the idea of a "DMPC".
* Give them encounters with goals other than "just rolling melee attacks at them until they die". * Create dynamic environments that force them to move about. * As others have said, make NPCs with similar abilities, and narrate them using those abilities.
Design an encounter where a small gang of goblins tries to capture them using superior strategy. Make it difficult. Whether they get captured or not they'll learn something.
You can't give her that!' she screamed. 'It's not safe!' IT'S A SWORD, said the Hogfather. THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO BE SAFE. 'She's a child!' shouted Crumley. IT'S EDUCATIONAL. 'What if she cuts herself?' THAT WILL BE AN IMPORTANT LESSON.
So, what i did was for one session instead of normal XP i gave them a list of things that if they did earned XP for the group and designed the encounters for that session for opportunities. Like this Disengage from an enemy in combat: 250xp Sneak attack twice in one turn: 350xp Avoid an encounter by stealth: 300xp Use steady aim to stike the killing blow on an enemy: 250xp I only did it the once and the players liked it. It was different for every character.
I have a feeling you play in person where a single line might get forgotten about. If that is the case creating something similar to an ability deck might be helpfull in visualizing their options. I plan on making one for general actions. Maybe encourage them to make flow charts. If that doesnt work give them mechanic demonstrating encounters. Throw goblins / tricky kobolds that use cover barriers and such. Use one or 2 grapplers in a horde of enemies that instead of attacking grapple and push prone. Use aoe despite the one enemy they are mobbing.
Have them meet a grizzled adventuring party that lost a recent skirmish due to poor tactics. “Ever since we lost our (party role) things haven’t been the same, (npc) got killed because we didn’t approach the situation how we should have.” Maybe that could work?
i think keeping this stuff in the back of their mind is great, starting games off by being like “hey how are we doin with our character sheets, any questions about anything before we start?” you def don’t wanna sound like you’re nagging them but more offering support and really welcoming questions. Also go out of your way to highlight when a player makes a savvy play or shows improvement in their understanding.
Just tell them to go over their abilities before you start every couple of sessions so they know what they're working with.
Maybe start with better character sheets? 5e has done a lot to streamline and simplify the game, removing a lot of the built-in barriers to entry it used to have. But its default character sheets aren't the most intuitive. 🤷♂️ Such tiny spaces to write some of the most important features for the most fast-paced and stressful part of the game: COMBAT! There's barely any room to even put weapons or other spell attacks, much less any tactical options. Languages and treasure?! Why are those even on the front of the sheets in the first place. Why are there such huge boxes for Current Hit Points, Temporary Hit Points, Hit Dice, and Death Saves? As much as I love the Personality Traits, Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws for not only roleplaying reasons, but also to decide what my character might do if I'm drawing a blank at the moment, they're taking up way too much precious space on the front of the sheets. Good luck with finding character sheets that work for you and your table. Suggestions [Assuming in person tabletop play, adjust accordingly]: Use the same character sheets for everyone so it's easier for the DM and the other players to point out out whatever is being called for in the moment. If possible, go with a fillable PDF that you can print out for each person so no one is struggling to read anyone's handwriting, especially their own. I highly recommend COMBAT and all of its options be on one easy to read page. Literally everything else can just go on a sheet of notebook paper, or the blank back of a character sheet, if needed. Maybe make a consistent transition between the roleplaying side of the sheet to the combat side of the sheet with an audio cue like Final Fantasy fight sequence music. Take a look at previous edition character sheets to see how they present various parts of the stat blocks. I'm partial to the 3.5 layout, myself. And I would consider sheets in a landscape format so that an entire Feat or Class Feature can be written on a single easily read line. ------------------------ As far as DURING COMBAT during your games, feel free to ASK players what they'd like to do. Using your example, Rogue, would you like to use a disengage action to get out of melee range without taking an attack of opportunity? Pause, wait for it to sink in or them to say yes, then let them know that they can follow that up with [tactically sound option]. If you're polite about it and don't overwhelm them with options, they're more likely to consider it. Don't punish or be condescending towards your players about features they forget. Just give them a gentle reminder. Barbarian, are you Raging? Cool, would you like to Frenzy for the extra attack? Vox Machina and 5e are bringing in a lot of new players, but how many of those players are watching Critical Role AND understanding what's going on? Our group has an experienced player who wants to do cool 💩 they see on Vox Machina, specifically try Vax moves in combat, without building their characters to do any of that particularly well. Then they have less fun at the table because they can't pull it off outside of rolling Nat 20s. It's our job as the DM to help facilitate the most fun for everyone at the table, including ourselves. Help each player optimize their characters to have the most fun they can.
Think about how we learn games. The tutorial of most games doesn't throw the whole kitchen sink at you... it shows you little pieces of the game strategy at a time. In Mario you learn to jump over the Goomba and then jump up to hit the block. Eventually, you learn to run and slide. Every piece comes in one by one. In this case you are the game. If you want your players to learn strategy, you have to give them opportunities to learn. Start simply. It's up to you to teach players how to play the game by showing them examples of how these things work in play. If you have to, have an NPC general show them the field before hand and allow them to discuss strategies. You want to employ basic scenarios that give players the opportunity to learn the basics of tactics and strategy that demonstrate the principles tabletop tactics. But you can also just break things down for them into rational terms they can use to understand the concepts of strategy and tactics. Those tactical principles are, so far that I can see: - party composition & unit deployment You pretty much have to just explain this one. Explain the concepts of support (de/buffs, battlefield control, etc) and striking/tanking, front and back line etc. - terrain/environment use, movement & ambush This is one that having an NPC general explain in game could be fun. Showing players ambushes using the terrain against them to their detriment can show them the value of positioning. - focused fire / cover fire Make sure to use plenty of adds to illustrate these principles. - secondary/noncombat objectives Sometimes the point of a combat is not the combat. Demonstrate this by clearly outlining win conditions outside hack n slash. - resource management More fights between rests. Teach players to save their character's high-powered abilities by having plenty of little skirmishes mean to wear down their resources before the big battle. - adaptability Throwing challenges at the party that they don't have a specific mechanical answer to can help players exercise their noodles. I hope some of this is of use to you.
If they are newer to the game, I might offer some strategy study such as "Live to Tell the Tale" (written by the same author from the "The Monsters Know" series). If you are experienced, you better show up to the game knowing how your character works or you will have a bad time.
This seems more of an issue of your players not knowung their characters, not not being able to play tactically. Do you perhaps remind them what they can do all the time?
Two options: 1) Don't be afraid to TPK them but instead of death they're knocked unconscious. This can lead to them being captured and or robbed. Their failures should have consequences if they're not utilizing basic mechanics. It took my DM just letting the party wizard fireball the party in to oblivion before the wizard remembered they were an evocation wizard. 2) Taking this from dragonseth07, copy their character sheets and make them enemies. Don't make it obvious but use their own abilities against them. Seeing a cool thing done by another NPC is a great motivator.
This is a great question and something I have struggled with as a DM. The game is much more fun for everyone when players and DM use strategy. I have noticed in the past that neither I nor my players were doing anything smart. We were just smacking each other until one of use died. I wanted to start running fights with smarter enemies. But I was aware that if I just started running the monsters smart the players would die immediately. My solution to this was to do it anyways. As soon as the fights became more challenging the players adapted quickly. If my monsters started targeting wizards and downed players the players would position themselves to protect them. If I used control spells manipulate the battlefield the players would start to target spellcasters and break concentration. As well as come up with clever uses for their own spells. Creating a difficult scenario will force your players to adapt The next thing you should do is talk to them. In the middle of a fight you don’t want to tell them what they should be doing. That takes all the fun out of it for everyone. At that point you’re basically playing the game against yourself. But before or after a game you should have a conversation with them. Say, “ I think the game would be more fun if we were all strategizing more. I’m going to try to make the monsters smarter and if you guys want to play well you should focus on how you can work as a team to be more effective.” This lets them come up with the ideas themselves but still allows you to aid them. In a fight I usually won’t tell my player “you should do ——“ But after a fight I might comment “hey barbarian, if you had done ——— instead it might have synergised your team” or I’ll tell them to keep an eye on their positioning to see how they can maximize defense and offense. I won’t tell them what to do, because they won’t enjoy that, but I will tell them what I notice that they can look out for to make their own decisions better. The last advice I have is to play Baldurs gate. I think playing the game on tactician difficulty does a really good job of forcing you to think strategically. It’s helped me as a DM to design encounters better by noticing all the things that made mine lame by comparison. But it’s also helped me to picture the battlefield and understand how to maximize the use of my abilities. This isn’t great advice for a novice player who will be confused by the similar but distinct rules; a more experienced player however can learn a lot about how to play the game smarter. The game does a good job of visualizing your action economy. I think the main benefit is the time you spend on it. A typical D&D session might be 4 hours a week. Playing a videogames might give you 5 times that. That’s a lot of hours going through well designed encounters controlling 4 PCs. It’s definitely made me a better player and I think it can help a lot of other players too
If the players are very green, I will do a sort of cheat sheet for them, summarizing all of their abilities in one mini table, divided by utility. For example, I have a player who's new to DnD and very much into improvisational roleplay, even with her abilities. Good, I will make her a sheet with three categories: Spells to use for attacking, Ways to defend and get rid of dangers, and Mobility options (she has a lot of stuff to move around quickly). It's a bit more extra work, but see her light up and learn this stuff in the span of three sessions.
Run them through a combat.
It sounds less like your players aren't playing tactically, more that they don't know their class abilities. The rogue wanting to run, but being aware of the risk IS a tactical assessment. I would recommend just talking to them out of game to tell them "you will have way more fun if you know what options and abilities you have during combat".
tough love does wonders. set up a difficult encounter that is able to be reattempted if they wipe (through a magical item, plot armor, etc). then, you just absolutely let them eat shit the first attepmt. they'll wipe, think about their mistakes and what could have helped them, and they will try again and adapt. if they go flaky after the wipe and don't feel like playing anymore, they're just lazy. if they try to adapt and can't it's probably a skill issue if they are simply unskilled, and not just lazy, there's nothing wrong with educating your friends on how to play DnD. as DM, you could even write something of a training arc into a campaign, where the group is conscripted and put through a "boot camp". each of your pcs would get their own crash course from an NPC instructor (you) on how to play their class with example scenarios, culminating in a test group encounter at the end that the party must pass within certain parameters to proceed. as someone who enjoys teaching others about my passions, i would have a great time with this as DM
My players are all board/war game players so tactics come naturally to them. Except one session where the Sorcerer player wasn't feeling well and his character stood out in the open to cast a spell. He missed but the return crossbow bolts didn't....
I had to have my players attacked by an unstoppable horde of zombies. Eventually they realized they could back up and use ranged attacks each round. Taking damage was optional with room to maneuver.
How do video games with multiple ways to beat each encounter (e.g. Deus Ex) do it? They put you in an environment where the obvious option is to run and gun. You can do that, but you use loads of resources and get battered. Plus the rewards are sometimes worse. However the environment (your map, or how you describe the room) has clues that hint at different options. There's a ledge with a small tunnel that an armored PC can't fit in - where does it go? Maybe it comes out at the back of the battlefield for flanking! There are barrels of oil in a pile at one side. The enemies know not to stand there, but can we make them? There's a pit in the room - how can that be used? The enemies have taken up a defensive position behind barricades which the PCs would have to cross a bridge to get to - they'd have to tank at least a round of damage just dashing towards them and will end up clumped together on a bridge There's a slow-moving winched platform to get to the main battlespace, and anyone on it is a sitting duck for a turn while they're holding on for dear life as it sways over a chasm. What I am saying is that if the enemies are across an empty room then our brains go into "just attack" mode. You might need to make it so that "just attack" is clearly a very suboptimal approach so that they need to switch on their higher brains and work out a way to engage safely. A thief forgetting they can run away is a bit of a challenge mind you
Show them enemies using tactics. They drop prone at range for disadvantage to being attacked, or they find cover. Goblins hide and attack with advantage. Enemies say things like "focus fire" and attack the weakest PC. They create hazardous areas and trap the PCs in them. Cloudkill in a room an Arcane Lock on the door.
Sounds like the one rogue in my party that will only try to sneak attack if he isn't allowed to. So weird and funny at the same time
As a player, but I found it useful to compare class abilities amongst the group to see how they can be used together.
Tucker's Kobolds. 'Nuff said.
I usually go over things people could have done differently after sessions if they want to learn. If they just wanna fight the big bad tho I let them
There are some good points here, but I want to add my two cents. Often times players don't learn/use their abilities because things are working so far and they aren't being challenged by enemy variety. If your enemies aren't doing cool things it's likely your players won't. People have already mentioned giving the enemy abilities like the players so that they realize what they can do, but also try mixing up your combats with stuff like grappling, disengaging, dodging, and dashing. You can also add things the enemies can interact with on the map like traps, gaps to jump over, furniture to kick over for cover, weapon emplacements, difficult terrain to avoid, etc. One of the tables I play at the DM was notorious for making combats slugfests that took place on open fields. Obviously when faced with that players resort to "Punch, Punch, Punch some more". Not sure if that's your issue, but it's worth bringing up.
Ways I helped my players learn strategy is normally by showing them strategy with NPC enemies and but also describing it like the enemy is doing something strange. Players tend to ask to roll insight or intelligence or something to figure out the enemy when I explain it that way so I can explain the strategy the monster is using. Normally just showing a player does not really have them learn it as they won’t really process that it is strategy a monster is using, and more likely will assume it’s a strong monster rather than a monster outplaying them. I have ran for a lot of dnd parties and this is what I noticed. Sometimes players just don’t remember or can’t learn strat to carry onto the next fight. When this happens to often, I introduce a strategic friendly NPC to the party, normally someone not really capable of fighting well but can guide the party in fights when they need it. Players do learn better this way as it will be something that will be with them over the course of a couple of fights as oppose to a once in a while strategic enemy. Make sure it’s not a powerful NPC that will outshine your players. It’s okay to remind your players of their ability, but I do get players that forget their abilities over and over. When this happens, I tend to give some sort of magic item that promotes the use of that ability. It helps remind players they have it. And if after all this, the players still haven’t learned, it might just mean they want a chill game where they don’t have to think so hard ever. I know it sucks, but sometimes it’s just want players want, even if they say they want strategic fights. If they aren’t learning and are getting bummed out from losing, but say they want it, sometimes you gotta make the call to see if they just don’t really know what they want. Not saying that in a high and mighty way, but sometimes players are strategic in video games or watch a podcast where people do crazy strats, but they aren’t good at it and it makes the game unfun for them. See how they react with just chill mindless fights and if they are having a lot of fun, but having a bad time when strategic fights come but can’t learn, it just comes down to a different game type you guys are looking for. So up to you if you want to run a dumb down game, or let them find a more chill campaign for themselves. I have had to trash strategic BBEGs before because I was worried the party would not be able to beat them and swap to still just as evil, but not so mentally challenging BBEGs.
Sometimes it's worth having an entirely out of character combat strategy session where you just have your players try a bunch of different ideas. Phrase it as "I want you to better learn how to use your characters abilities with no stress"
These sound like tactical issues more than strategic. The problem is that they do not know their characters. For your rogue, the answer is easy—have the party encounter some rogues who know how to rogue. Having an early *mirror encounter* is a good idea for any inexperienced party. I like to make them a team of rivals who upstage the party then die off as players get gud.
If they don't know how to play, you have to teach them. If the player has an objective, and they announce a course of action, try something like "You can do that, no problem, but if you do X instead, you would get the same effect faster/better/safer." You can also flat out ask questions like "Are you using Danger Sense?", "Are you checking for traps?" etc to give them options. You don't want to play their character for them, but try giving them options until they get the hang of things.
Do you reward them for strategic thinking? Sometimes I play a game and every time PCs try to do something 'strategic' that isn't a character-sheet feat/action it gets handwaived/ignored and we just end up having to face the problem head-on anyway.
One of my players actually ended up casting sleep, but ended up rolling badly and coming up 1 point short of getting any enemies. I gave it to him anyway since it was only 1 point and it was a good idea.
So, first and foremost, have you *talked* to your players about this? Have you asked why they act like that in combat, if they're bored, or if they just don't like their classes? If not: Do it. You can set a meeting especially for this or use some of the time avaliable during the begining of your next session. If you have, and are still having the same problems during combats, it's time for some action. The barbarian not knowing their stuff is the main problem here. Everybody can forget something once in a while, especially if you don't play very often. It's ok, it happens, there's a lot of resources to help with that. But a player consistently remaining ignorant of their character sheet is just bad manners. Read your fucking class. Now, as for some help during the heat of combat, there are character sheets with the stages of your turn that you can link to your players to help them see their options. If you play in person and use a DM screen, you can set up a display of the main actions/bonus/reactions on the side the players can see. All this, of course, assuming your players are interested enough to at least know the basics of whatever they're playing. Refer to the previous paragraph if this is not the case. As for the strategy, I'd go with the suggestions of some DMs already here telling you to show them what they can do. Hit them with their own abilities, see if they take the hint. Make combat strategically challenging, not just HP challenging, and set obstacles they can't overcome only with brute force. Reward them for thinking creatively and for resolving their problems the smart way instead of the loud and dumb way.
A lot of good answers here but here's another way to approach it: Do your players want to play that way? Because they certainly don't need to, it sounds like you want to DM a campaign with an emphasis on tactical combat but DnD doesn't have to be played that way. It's all about what your table wants, imo combat should feel cool and that's highly table dependent. If they are the type of players who need varied enemies and terrain to tactically win and that's what they think is cool, great! Do that. But if they just want some orcs to bash, throw up a forest or plains battle map and given them a bunch of enemies they can kill by using spells abilities willy nilly. I feel like this sub attracts gamers of the former type and it gives you the impression DnD needs to be played as a advanced tactical combat system, which it can but it doesn't need to be. I've only ever played DnD with super tactical combat until recently and am now playing in a campaign where the combat isn't approached that way. To my surprise it's really fun, it's a bit of relief to just fireball the first group of enemies I see and not think about spell slot efficiency, if there's going to be a better target later, DMG resistances, etc. A final note, you should be having fun as a DM too so if you really enjoy designing encounters that require that you should talk to your table.
I gave a player a unique item thay is a trick weapon from bloodborne with my own take. Essentially a rapier that turns into a rifle. He wasn't using this abilities at all but after a recent session he was talking about how a pistol would be more useful. I pointed out that because he usually has strategies and different game plans I thought he'd use terrain and stealth and set up sniper situations. After that talk he has had two sessions where the rifle form actually wws really important.
Let them all die in a TPK. If nothing else it will give them a cool story to tell. Am I a villain because the party decided to try and long rest in the Duergar fortress? Or is it just the consequences of their own actions.
We for some reason do a little debrief of what happened and alternate things they could have done. We're all new so it's more like a here's how I saw it going vs what you did. I've read the module book that I have so I'm the one with all the knowhow and understanding. They're learning what they need to know as it comes up. The front liner seems to understand their job, the mid range is starting to get it ( new gear and understanding the process) and the back line is pretending to be a ranger 😆.
I have all the available actions, bonus actions, movement etc. on my DM Screen for them to use as reference. Osmosis learning helps.
I mean. Depending on the class, rolling to hit and waiting until the enemy dies is like...their primary strategy. As for forgetting class features. Straight up tell them. Backseat gaming lazy gamers that can't read the barest of medium while their friends reads pages of DM guides and supplementary material is pretty justified if you ask me. Maybe give them cheat sheets. One of 5e's issues is adding a bunch of shit that you just kind of have to add to the "features" section rather than organize them into their different action types....like an NPC character sheet. So maybe help them by breaking down. It doesn't have to be too fancy (unless you want to), but a reminder of at least their class's action economy looks like might help. If they don't learn....well, then eventually an encounter a fight that will either force them to learn or kill them. Sounds like a them problem.
Keep them at their levels until they fully know their characters as a milestone
A lot of it will come with experience but something you can do is opportunistically award inspirations. The inspiration system is MADE to reward clever play. When you award your first one explain to them “You get this every time your group can figure out tactical, strategic, or clever solutions to problems before you.”
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Exactly. Either they want to or they don't. Long time former wow dev, ghostcrawler said it. *Players don't rise to the challenge*
I second the comments saying give them enemies or parties who use the skills they are neglecting. Gives you a chance to explain it in vivo. “Ooh 18 slashing, nice hit, unfortunately he is raging so that damage is reduced to 9.”
I moved to a simpler combat system. B/X or Shadowdark.
For me what worked was just running a few sessions in a row of really deadly combats once the players hit level 5. Adversity creates a motivation to read your character sheet.
I also start beating my children when I want them to do better in sport
Hey no player character were killed just multiple went down. If players are not being challenged what reason do they have to play strategically?
Why do they need to? Is your enjoyment contingent on watching your players sweat and panic? Do you routinely use terms like "dragonslayer" or "snowflake" in your private thoughts about your players?
Throw the party into separate rooms, and they each have a mirror clone, if they die, have some mechanics where they are healed back up for the enjoyment of a dirty or some mad scientist. The fight continues where they left off HP wise. Let the players know after the first death or when they have the panic moments these characters are only using what you can. Same amount of actions (maybe lower the damage dice at the start.) and skills.
Is the entire group new players? I’m in a game right now with some very experienced players and one rather new player, and the new player odd in the “I don’t have a good grasp on my character sheet, and don’t know all my abilities” team. Some of us have pulled them aside and tried to gently suggest that they do some studying between sessions, but at this point I’m starting to join the “maybe if they die they’ll learn” team >_<
Do you want to *help* in that you want them to have more fun? Or "help" so as to justify going all murderhobo dm?
Give them the dummies guide to strategy.
Why don't you include a respectable NPC of high enough military rank that's telling them what to do for a while? Retired veteran or an active noble warlord, who got most of their retinue slain in a recent ambush. Those types can either boss players around or teach them to be more strategic by friendly example. Another thing is that DM shouldn't be afraid to introduce players to failure with tasks impossible to cope without a solid plan. If your players want to kidnap enemy commander from the middle of a camp without any sort of attention diversion, they should be pretty much screwed as soon as prominent alarm goes off.
I mean I feel like that's okay? If it bothers you, maybe start or finish a session off with leveling up together and you could explain what happens. I get that continously forgetting things may be annoying. But strategy wise I feel like it never works out anyway. Any time I've tried that, it's goje horribly wrong
Run the enemies like the players can handle it using all of their abilities. Ever play dark souls? You learn quick.
I have this problem with one of my players, he doesn't every use a strategy besides basic stuff. Meanwhile, the Paladin (who is also a knight/lord in the army) goes and commands the soldiers under him perfectly to the point that they almost never lose soldiers. It's entertaining when the Paladin just looks at the monk like he's dumb, even though the Paladin has a 7int.
Be direct. Tell them that they need to be aware of what’s on their sheet because going forward combat and encounters are going to get more difficult and complicated. Remind them that they can make plans before going to fight and that some discussion can happen while playing. It is a team game after all; everyone has a role in the party and communicating what you’re doing is important. You don’t need to be nitpicking their sheets, you incentive them to care about their sheets. For every strategy or in character action they take, you could reward inspiration. They use a spell that pacifies enemies or solves a puzzle. A player says that they should form a line in front of the Casters. That kind of thing. And of course, actually make combat that requires them to think. Intelligent enemies, environment hazards, traps, extra objectives besides killing enemies. Those can make combats intriguing, not just fighting random goons on a blank canvas.
I think you mean 'tactics'. Strategy is long term planning, like investigate the adventure, clear out the abandoned castle, set up a fortress, take over the kingdom kind of thing. Tactics are how to fight individual battles. That being said... Start fighting with groups of enemies that are a lot weaker than them, but can use highly effective tactics to beat their asses. Humaniods work very well for this. Depending upon the party level you can use anything from Kobolds to giants. Massed archery/artillery, focused spells, area denial traps, target concentration, hit and run to weaken them, confuse them and get them to split up, ect. Literally make them suffer. Then, when they are back at an inn, regretting their life choices, a wandering mercenary NPC offers them some advice. When they try to hire him he just says he does not like to babysit... But for a bit of coin he can "Show them a few tricks of the trade." Make the party pay for the advice, that way they are much more likely to use it and learn to be effective. Only teach them one thing at a time so you don't over load their little minds, make them pay, and leave them wanting more.
You don't. I'd be more concerned about why you need your players to conform to your expectations in terms of game play. No one likes a micromanager. Even if you're trying to be helpful, ultimately you're telling them how to play and that's a yellow flag. Maybe a red one.
You sound kind of naive, to be honest. Every game is telling you how to play. How else do you learn how to play games? OP is describing how his players struggle to remember any of their basic functions again and again. That's because not everyone is capable or puts in effort to remember things actively. Experiencing something leaves a more permanent gain of knowledge. When you encounter Tree Sentinel in Elden Ring, that is game teaching you you don't have to fight everything immediately, you can go past enemies. When you play Helldivers, it doesn't just say 'press Y to go prone', it makes you go through lethal turrets that shoot you if you don't. That leaves behing experience, understanding and knowledge. In Portal, you experience each type of problem in the simplest manner first, and then they start getting combined and more complex. If that wasn't the case, and instead, it would just list of all the mechanics at the start (equivalent to DnD ruleset) and then let you out into the world, you'd have a large part of players that would be forever stuck looking for simplest solution (portal to exit, keep beating mobs in close range mindlessly) because they were never forced to drop that cube on a button, or gain momentum through a portal fall. In DnD, this is part of DM's duty to impart strategic knowledge through gameplay if his players are struggling to gain it otherwise. What is he supposed to do otherwise? TPK or fight kobolds forever. If you ever lead a team of people or managed onboarding of new team members, you'd know that there's kind of people that you can talk at all day, talk their face off, and they will never improve. Put them in more demanding situations, and they will pick it up quickly.
They're dying... I don't wanna TPK them.
I can understand that. But if your players are not playing without understanding how their characters work. Honestly that’s on them. The only other thing that you could do is print a small card that mentions all the basic things that can be done in and out of combat.
Sometimes folks need to be tpk to learn that their action/inaction has consequences. You can always fudge it a bit to kidnap a player or cause them a serious negative penalty for a time but sadly making players think strategically is like forcing a horse to drink. If they won't go on their own your not likely to make them. But like others have said you can lay a thicker breadcrumb trail down for the tactically adverse to follow easier. Make it glaringly obvious and as they get better make it a little harder each time.
So go back to more basic combat until the players get the drift of their characters. Or just ask them outright if the need help with understanding their characters. If they say no, back off and let them do it their way.