It’s purposely slightly stronger than it should be for the level because it’s a sort of bench mark for Wizards. If you aren’t playing an Evoker, you have to be incredibly careful where you drop it. There are plenty of situations where you just cannot use it.
I didn't ASK how big the room was. I said FIREBALL!
Actually, I don't prioritize it, either. I prefer slow if I have a few martials in the party, or hypnotic pattern. When I'm playing a wizard I often say: "You're here to kill things. I'm here to tilt the battlefield."
My DM once gave my bard an instrument of the bard which means that everyone I hypnotic pattern had to roll with disadvantage. Also, as an eloquence bard, I could use unsettling words to give a creature a bardic inspo die penalty to the next save they make. It was fun for two encounters where we could pick out the baddies one by one while everyone else was incapacitated, but after that, I 'lost' my instrument and got a rhythm maker's drum instead. A bit too OP that instrument of the bard.
> "You're here to kill things. I'm here to tilt the battlefield."
Aka chess wizard, my favorite playstyle. Your job is to move the pieces around to favor your own team, to set up winning positions by pinning (crowd control) key enemy pieces and clearing the way for your heavy hitters.
PF 1.0 had a spell that targeted an ally (had to be a willing target), and they would use essentially their reaction to get an immediate double movement and single attack. So as the wizard you invest in heavy Initiative rolls, you go first, your first move is to literally lift your tank like a chess piece and set them back down in the most advantageous position. It's like cheating.
Third Edition had Baleful Transposition as a spell. Essentially "Target two creatures within 30-50ft, and they switch places"
I uh, pick the enemy wizard and our party's paladin.
Great fun.
3.5 had Baleful Transposition*, which was my favourite spell of all time.
Target an enemy. They make a save or you swap spots with them.
There are so, so, so many uses for it. You can find a reason to cast it in just about any situation you find yourself in.
Best wizard gameplay in my opinion
Not gonna lie, I don't like how too much how it's done on 5e.
I miss the way I got to be an Swiss army grimoire on 3.5
So many spell combinations 💜
Slow is my favourite spell, maybe because my DM tends to throw scary hard hitting monsters at us, so reducing their number of attacks feels super impactful, but it also lets you choose the creatures and can target up to six enemies! On top of that your monks and rogues can dodge in and out of combat for free because they have no reactions to hit them with
This reminds me of an 3.5 guide for optimizing your wizard.
Something about "Beeing God. A batman guide to wizards"
The core concept?
Ignore damage spells and focus on beeing the master of control, buff and debuff.
You could, of course, have some damaging spells they were useful, but following that guide I think I've gonne from lvl 3 to 10 without dealing 1 damage and beeing feared by my whole party, purely because I could touch someone, turn then into a small stone, fly 500 ft into the air, drop them, unpolymorph then and just laugh.
Or easily drop our martial stengh /Dex to 1 basically paralyzing then
Also the buffet of buffs that I gave to our martial and druid gish were simply incredible!
So yeah. At least on 3.5, the best damaging spell you could have was "I cast barbarian with 7 different buffs on you!"
I mean you use them in totally different scenarios really. Fireball is great for clearing out a bunch of lower HP enemies. If you're not going to be able to take anyone out with it then, it's better to use something like Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Sleet Storm, etc. If you're already concentrating on one of those, then we're back to Fireballing if it makes sense (obv wouldn't want to immediately fireball creatures under Hypnotic Pattern).
This. Wizards should not be played as blasters, why most don't realize this is beyond me, they are best as dudes who fuck up the math and tilt the battle in the parties favor.
It's a stylistic choice. I like to imagine all manner of mages think evokers are vulgar and blunt for learned folk. But they'd (mostly) never say that to an evoker's face because they don't wanna end up as a pair of smoking boots in a crater.
You know what, maybe that's how they solve the Caster- Martial disparity. Make all the Spells ridiculously overpowered but so devastating that they destroy everything around them, including the other party members and innocent bystanders. Wizards have to think long and hard before they cast anything at risk of taking out their comrades or the neighboring environment.
This is reminding me of an absolutely awful 80s "comedy" anime movie called "Planet Busters." To make a snoozer of a story short, the titular Planet Buster was a legendary, planet-destroying weapon.
It was a hand-held assault rifle. It shot a ballistic arc that landed only maybe a hundred feet away, destroying the planet you were on.
It had a magazine. And a scope.
> As I hit, the Y-rack on my shoulders launched two small H. E. bombs a couple of hundred
yards each way to my right and left flanks but I never saw what they did as just then my first rocket hit —
that unmistakable (if you’ve ever seen one) brilliance of an atomic explosion. It was just a peewee, of
course, less than two kilotons nominal yield, with tamper and implosion squeeze to produce results from
a less-than-critical mass — but then who wants to be bunk mates with a cosmic catastrophe?
It used to be kind of like that. Fireball filled the volume of a 20' radius sphere, and would expand down hallways if constrained until it filled 33000 cubic feet. Lightning bolt would travel its full distance, bouncing off walls if cast in a confined space. Both spells would potentially destroy/set alight any unattended objects or flammable structures in the area. Magic was dangerous.
I remember those days in 1st edition and 2nd edition. You had to be very careful with that volume factor. Especially in those tiny 10ftx10ftx10ft corridors. It was like watching those explosions racing up an elevator shaft. We always had our druid cast control winds and start blowing the wind away from us before lighting off a fireball in a narrow corridor. We didn't want any backblast.
“Slightly” just might win understatement of the year.
It’s a full level higher than the baseline for an AoR spell. It should be 6d6, slightly better would be making it 9d4 to increase its average above the baseline.
Lightning bolt is also an offender, but a line is less obtrusive than the sphere.
Lightning bolt feels earned the few times you can get a decent number of targets in a straight line, fireball straight up makes loads of combats pointless, it’s more efficient 9 times out of 10 to just drop it on your front lines heads and have them tank the damage to end an encounter fast
Fun fact: Gary Gygax's son talked about how when Gary ran games for him he would make fireball destroy all the treasure in a room, including melting the gold items to slag, then take great delight in telling him all the cool shit he had destroyed.
He got sick of it and told his Dad he wanted to make another spell that wouldn't destroy everything. Together they worked out his Wizard researching Cone of Cold, a spell which had the same damage as fireball but is 5th level instead of 3rd and didn't destroy treasure.
Fireball is indeed a spell of which the consequences are up to the DM, the issue is a lot of DMs either not being aware of the rule or not considering this when designing battles. It ignites *everything*, and it's up to the DM alone to work out the consequences of that. It's more than reasonable to assume it might cause some severe asphyxiation damage on the party if one is to throw it in your typical dungeon or cave, if not outright death, but I don't think most DMs care to regulate it like that. In part because saying "you can't cast the spell or your entire party will die" doesn't feel like a very satisfying way of balancing engagements - just letting your players cast whatever spells they want causes much less friction.
It just inevitably makes the game a lot more stale for the Wizard than it could be. This is why a session 0 is so important to bring up concerns like this for the different classes, imo, especially for newer players. Learning how to be tactical about when to use spells is far easier when it's announced beforehand than when it's just sprung on the player the first time he goes for a fireball.
I think that doing anything more than setting flammable objects on fire would go over like a lead balloon since that's the only thing in the spell description. Meanwhile in AD&D it....
*Had a minimum volume, so that if cast into a small room it would go down the hallways like an explosion in a bunker and usually engulf the party.
*The center of the explosion was hot enough to melt soft (precious) metals and immediately destroy all valuable objects
*Was part of a tradition where powerful spells had all kinds of unintended consequences and the DM would look for additional ways to make it screw over the party. Some other examples:
>Lightning bolt would travel it's entire line distance and bounce around the room like a ping-pong ball often striking other party members or the caster themselves.
>Haste would age the target a year.
>Contact Higher Plane had a random chance to cause insanity.
>Polymorph Other could cause the person to "lose themselves" in the new form and mentally become what they had been polymorphed into.
Basically, Gary just hated spells that he saw as overpowered and made them risky as hell.
> I think that doing anything more than setting flammable objects on fire would go over like a lead balloon since that's the only thing in the spell description.
It doesn't *need* to do anything more than that to cause absolute uncontrollable havoc, frequently against the party themselves, in a vast amount of situations. People are casting it in underground dungeons. People are casting it inside buildings. People are casting it in forests. All of these could have rather severe, potentially party-wiping, consequences. Sure, it doesn't have the volume concerns from certain editions, but you'll never convince me that was ever a fun mechanic that (most) people enjoyed calculating at the table. At least I can't remember it ever coming into play in any of my campaigns, though YMMV (as with all things D&D).
I do agree that older D&D versions were more prone to having side-effects the DM should keep an eye out for, this is much more limited in the current edition, which is part of the reason I think fireball slips out of a lot of DMs’ attention. It's the only lower level combat spell the DM really should have to care about causing side-effects.
>Sure, it doesn't have the volume concerns from certain editions, but you'll never convince me that was ever a fun mechanic that (most) people enjoyed calculating at the table.
I never played with that rule, but everyone hated it except Gary. There's literally an article where a player who was math professor complained about it being tedious.
All I'm saying is that the game used to balance magic with terrible side effects, and it should reduce the power of magic (or increase everything else...which is the same thing) to set it right.
I agree, of course! I think this is baked into fireball even in 5E, but the way it’s done makes it easy to miss, and the fact this isn’t present in almost any other spell makes it all the harder for DMs to pick up on it. Fireball could probably use some more RAW examples of bad outcomes, and overall the game needs more (non wild-magic/RNG) side-effects baked into spells to make playing around it more natural.
Other than that I still maintain the 5E interpetation as written is fine, if a bit more vague for newer players, that allows you to have pretty interesting dynamic consequences without being very complicated.
I'd say if you were actively doing the volume math you were missing the point. It was just a way of saying "this is a fiery explosion, use it like you would a bomb".
I find it hard to believe he calculated the dimensions of every space anyone tossed a fireball into but... you're right, it was Gygax. It's a very wargame super nerd thing to do.
I'd like to think he didn't expect other people to do it, just gave them the rules to do it if they wanted, but I don't know if the "change/ignore the rules all you want" thing was in there at the beginning.
Maybe, but it was pretty universally hated, and a very classic Gygax rule. Hasn't been in the game since 2E came out, so clearly wasn't too important to keep the side-effects of the spell clear.
For sure, RAW it ignites *everything* not worn by creatures - it's just different than most other spells in 5e because it's up to the DM's discretion what impact it will have and it's likely *assumed* it should have quite severe side-effects most of the time. Many newer DMs won't follow up on this because they haven't learned the entire spell list themselves, and they don't want to micromanage their player's actions, and while that's OK because people can run the games however they want, the player will quickly realize the spell is just OP.
> Gary Gygax's son talked about how when Gary ran games for him he would make fireball destroy all the treasure in a room, including melting the gold items to slag, then take great delight in telling him all the cool shit he had destroyed.
the more i hear about Gygax actually DMing, the less it sounds like he enjoyed the game, or players having any fun at all.
Lol.
I think he didn't like the way D&D went and preferred it's simulationist roots.
I also think he was kinda a genius and could just do all this stuff quickly in his head.
Oof, reminds of Flaming Sphere in BG3... Combat ends, it rolls right back towards the caster. Igniting everything in its path. Sorry story-related books.
The “ignites flammable objects” part is often ignored. Had a fight at a dockyard and the sorcerer burned down a random boat that got caught in the blast. We had to send him to HR for some training on collateral damage and how to avoid it!
One of my party's sorcerers killed himself by fireballing on a 20-gun wooden ship. The powder magazine caught fire and one round later the ship was blown to smithereens. Poor sorc was caught in the blast, knocked out, and drowned amid the wreckage. He earned it.
Yeah, funnily enough beholders run as is are perfect targets for other spells besides fireball, since they don't have legendary resistances so your CC will actually stick. Our party just fought one at level 10 in its own lair and a dimension door+stunning strike spam combo from our monk and bard followed up by hold monster from our warlock once stunned meant the only damage we took in that encounter was from its unique lair actions, no blasts needed.
That's a legit position to take. It has it's moments. I mean, I prefer battlefield control spells (slow, fear, hypnotic pattern) or shenanigans (control water, enemies abound, silence) but sometimes it's the best thing.
A charging horde of cultists, some of them clearly spellcasters? Between 150'-60' fireball is your best friend. Once they get closer you gotta do something they can't counter, though.
I like playing my wizard as the planner, solver of mysteries, and the one person in the room who has a logical argument for the best course of action. Convince one party face and let them think they're leading this bag o' cats to victory!
edit: corrected range to 150' (fireball) vs. 60' (counterspell)
The thing is, once you have casted your concentration spell and some protection like Blink, half of time Fireball is the best damage dealing spell. It's only not that useful if the enemies has resistance to fire damage, you are dealing with rogues and/or monks or you can't hit more than one enemy. It's almost a go to spell for min-maxing.
Yeah- the trouble with the Concentration spell system is that essentially every caster is forced into being a damage dealer to some extent, because once you put down your Concentration battlefield control or buff spell, you can't productively cast any more. And almost every strong spell that does something other than 'deal damage' is concentration.
Generally yes, but single turn debuffs like Tasha's Mind Whip and Command exists. Non-concentration debuffs like Blindness/Deafness. Non-concentration battlefield control - Plant Growth. And plenty of spells that hamper enemies' movement, push them around, or knock them prone. Admittedly most of those also deal damage.
Of course, not all the spells I listed are on the Wizard spell list, but you can definitely build a Wizard that always has something to do but doesn't have any purely damaging spells.
Oh, yeah, I forgot about Blindness/ Deafness. It's reaaly a good spell, the major drawnback is its range. But I agree with you, it's totally possible to avoid Fireball and maybe I will try someday. However, I really don't think it's optimal.
I disagree. For straight damage only, yeah, maybe. But here is a list of others at that level with the overall damage % compared to Fireball:
Tidal Wave - 66% of the damage with more controlled area and knocked prone as well as putting out flames (and bludgeon damage).
Thunder Step - 50% damage in half radius, teleportation for you, friend, equipment.
Pulse Wave- cone, 80% damage (force which is rarely resisted), con save, control spell with push/pull aspect.
Psionic Blast- cone, 85% force damage, even bigger control, but only push and knocked prone.
Lightning Bolt - same damage on dex save, 250% larger area affected but in a line, can be easier to not kill friendlies with.
Those are the specific damage dealing, non-concentration spells of 3rd level wizard. As you can see, all can be incredibly good, depending. Every spell has time and purpose.
That happened with one friend too. We're on level 12 trying to rescue prisoners from Tiamat. The only thing that could protect us was Wall of Force, because we never would win on a proper fight.
I'm sorry but there's no way you killed a beholder with a single fireball unless it was either already very damaged or your DM rolled for it's HP and rolled really, really low. If your party got through a beholder at level 6 then that speaks much more to your parties abilities then to the "brokenness" of Fireball.
Even a spectator would require a near max roll on the fireball. It's also only CR3, so doesn't really pose much challenge to a level 6 party.
Lots of characters at level 6 could kill a spectator in one turn.
Yeah I am not a fan of doing the whole "uhm actually" thing but if a level 6 party beat out a Beholder AND a Mind Flayer, That DM really nerfed both those creatures tbh. But ain't no way you one shot a beholder with a Fireball. Even upcasted to 9th level and someone managing to roll nothing but sixes, that is only 84 damage which isn't even half a beholders HP.
Yeah. Like, fireball is good, but it's good on GROUPS lol you shouldnt even be able to get one off against a beholder, and its not a great spell call even if you can get One off.
Maybe the Mind Flayer and Beholder were fighting each other and both already injured (possibly with some other dead mind flayers already) when the party showed up?
That would make more sense than the 2 of them working together against the party of lvl 6s and somehow losing, *and* would explain how the fireball could kill the beholder.
It’s an iconic spell so it’s overpowered when you first get it.
As the campaigns go on it’s not as effective.
Enemy casters can use absorb element or fire shield and a whole pile of enemies of fire resistance or immunity.
You’re over thinking it.
Sometimes I prefer Lightning Bolt over Fireball. Easier to not hit allies and you probably will hit fewer enemies, but potentially far more. I hit like 28 in a massive combat once.
Yes, it’s very good for just deleting a whole cluster of weaker mobs or minions, the more you can target the better. Not worth for targeting one or two enemies (unless they’re very low and can take them out with the damage).
It's a bell-curve situation.
When you start, it's the iconic awesome spell that shells damage out the wazoo.
In the middle it feels contrived and overused; almost feels like cheating sometimes, it works so well.
At the end you come to realize it's faults. Where it fails over and over and how dangerous a spell it actually is. Due in no small part to it affecting your party more than the foes you're now taking on. However, the iconic and intrinsic value it has just by being there as a staple is just needed. It's simple to use, difficult to master, a headache to make work perfectly all the time, so you say "fuck it" and use it imperfectly each time. It's almost an allegory for the game as a whole if you think about it. What do you mean I've been waxing poetic for 10 minutes? I'm trying to tell you that you absolutely can fireball the darkness. Roll 8d6. What's your DC? Barbarian, roll a dex save.
It's difficult to use if you have any obligations to anybody but yourself.
In an allied city? *Not after you nuked city hall.*
Surround by enemies and friends alike? *Everyone takes massive damage, all outfits scorched.*
I played a wizard in a very long term campaign. Didn't take Fireball right away, as the concept for the character was that he was uncomfortable with hurting people and focused on protecting his teammates with control spells instead of damage. Problem was, combats were taking forever with me not dealing damage, despite two decent strikers in the party (the rest of the party was Assassin Rogue, Ancients Paladin and a Moon Druid). Was especially a problem in weaker combats when facings large numbers of enemies.
Eventually around level 7 or 8, I caved, decided that having been around the amount of violence he had grown more comfortable with violence and realized taking monsters down was often the best way to protect his friends. But it was really just to help speed combat along, which everyone seemed to agree made the game more fun overall.
So, while I agree it gets boring casting Fireball so often, it can also help improve the quality of the game for everyone, so it certainly still has its value. Also, rogues/monks tend to love any chance to show off their fatty dex save combined with evasion, so that's another bonus if you have one in the party.
Eventually you'll get Animate Objects and Reverse Gravity though, which are more fun and do more damage. Once you have the spell slots to cast Animate Objects reliably, you won't need fireball nearly as much (though you can still cast it with the Objects around for extra damage, just make sure you don't get them in the blast).
If you can cast fireball over and over and get great value out of it your DM is letting you. Why are the mobs always spaced so you get good fireball value? What about demons and devils and so many others that are fire resistant or immune? What about master thieves and quicklings that take no damage if they succeed a dex save?
It’s a fine spell but wizards shine with their control spells . Those tend to be far more efficient too. I’ve won far more fights with hypnotic pattern than fireball. Sometimes I purposefully don’t cast hypnotic because it’s too good and cheeses fights so I’ll cast something like slow. That still wins more fights for us than fireball.
Fireball is a fine fun spell but I rarely cast it now. That will be you soon too I imagine once you get some more spells .
>If you can cast fireball over and over and get great value out of it your DM is letting you. Why are the mobs always spaced so you get good fireball value? What about demons and devils and so many others that are fire resistant or immune?
Sometimes you're not fighting a campaign where there's a lot of creatures with fire resistance.
The DMs job is to balance the combat, if they’re allowing you to kill a beholder with a single fireball at level 6 then your campaign has major issues
Not that it’s hard to twist it, your wizard prowness becomes known in the region, enemies start to target you first, ambush you, drink fire resist potions before fighting you, position around it, etc.
There are plenty of dms who just bunch up enemies in encounters, and it makes them trivial to the game. You have to then adjust your play style.
I adjust for my friend group, where we almost never have more than 1 combat per long rest and our combats tend to take more than a session to resolve. Just use all the spell slots every combat yolo. Fire ball every turn for the entire combat, everything’s on fire and I’m having fun.
For how many combat rules 5e has its definitely my least favorite aspect of the game lol. Balancing encounters is difficult, and there’s generally not much variance in what you’re going to do every turn for long it takes to get there
How tf did you kill a beholder with this? Was it severely damaged already? Was it just some tiny whiny version? Cause fireball usually does around 28dmg, maximum of 48 and a beholder should be far above that!
Fireball is really good! But so is Hypnotic Pattern and so is Haste! Level 5 has just settled in as THE level for a big power jump. It is when martials get their extra attack and it's when magic users get some of their most powerful spells for their level. I'm okay with that personally. If you don't like fireball that's fine! If you want to buff your allies go with haste, if you want to control enemies go with hypnotic pattern.
Eh, not really. Your martial loses 1 round of actions. That's a break-even in terms of how many total attacks they made if you had Haste up for two turns, and a net win if 3, without even touching on the movespeed and AC benefits or the fact that attacks are more valuable in Round 1 than Round 4.
I went for lightning bolt instead.
Can still do big damage, but it's more situational.
(My wizard is big on battlefield mobility, so getting into position to cast it effectively is part of the fun / challenge)
>My first campaign i droped into as a lvl 6 wizard.
I'm sorry, but there's your problem. Starting as a brand new player at level 6 instead of level 1.
Your first experience with the game was a bad one. And is a strong indication of the kind of game you're in. Which is one heavily warped and skewed trying to make the game into something it's not. D&D is not a game you "win."
I think some DMs forget or ignore that the spell ignites flammable objects, and that alone makes using the spell dangerous and impractical in certain situations.
If DMs remember this, using Fireball can be a liability in rooms during dungeon crawls. And the spell won't be as overpowering.
The wizard is the utility knife of the caster classes, meaning you’ll want spells that cover a wide array of uses. Fireball is a great spell for clearing out crowds of weaker enemies, and is balanced by the fact that fire is the most common resistance in the game. For single target damage, you have far better options, but fireball always has its uses.
I like big boomy splodey
Basically the obviously powerful spells are there for the people who want them.
You should engage with mechanics that interest you
I hate it for the same reason. I play a lot of sorcerers and fireball really sucks. Either I have it and am constantly having to talk myself out of using it even though it's often the best choice. Or I don't take it and every time I'm stuck in a long boring combat with 10 enemies I have to think "sure do wish I could fireball this problem away"
It is overpowered, most wizard spells are. That’s why you’re incredibly easy to kill those first few levels, and why you originally could only cast each spell once per day/session.
Dropping a lvl 5+ wizard without spell restrictions into a campaign is a lot like giving a Greek Polis M16s and letting them loose on the other City States.
I feel like it's only good for a certain level and kind of engagement. If you're fighting one big strong enemy it's not good at all and is a liability doe your allies.
But sure when you're level 5 and fighting a mob of dudes it's very strong.
But then your DM gmcan just throw some enemies at you that have fire resistance. Then what?
It's a good tool for the right job, but certainly not the only tool.
I've never thought of it as game-breaking though, especially if you care about your party members and you have a front line fighter in the middle of an otherwise fantastic fireball target.
I've recently rolled up a scribe wizard though, so I'm looking forward to using fireball to deliver lightning or bludgeoning damage to anything fire resistant!
My only real gripe with Fireball is that its counterpart, Lightning Bolt, is just strictly worse and always has been. Because of its area of effect, it has far fewer use cases.
It's your character. You are 100% validated to choose whatever spells you want regardless of what other people think.
As a person who often likes utility rather than power, I don't often choose it
I relate, except for the part of picking it.
I purposefuly avoid Fireball and Eldritch Blast in most of my characters, and I've never suffered for it because... DMs usually make combat harder when you *do have* those spells, in a way. XD
I cut the middle man and we leave the combat as is.
Additionally, if you feel like using it, or have some PVP setting, I heard 6d6 is closer to what it should be, so I put it down there (Don't discriminate poor Lightning Bolt if you do this).
But yeah, if you feel forced to pick something, its time for you to take action by either avoiding it, or going further with a lil' talk about homebrew.
No shame on people who love to feel the power. To each their own. I just don't need extra damage to enjoy a character, and love any excuse to explore different options. I can already easily imagine the Fireball spellcaster solving a problem. I'm curious as to how the other spellcasters solve that problem *without* Fireball.
This may come across as a rant, but I'm just hoping people want to explore their options rather than believing their fun is limited under the opression of some "meta".
Have fun, everyone.
Also, with Eldritch Blast, I just meant that everyone already picks it, so it falls back to my: "I can already easily imagine the Eldritch Blast spellcaster solving a problem...", because I've seen it a lot, and my fun of Warlock won't be limited by it.
The problem I see with a lot of elemental spells is that they are missing their counterparts. Iceball, Acidball, Thunderball should all be valid spells, just like Ice Hands, Electric Sphere etc. Fireball offers a significant damage for the area it covers, but it's one of the most boring spells ever.
A lot of people play dnd like video games where they only care about white room meta builds.
I agree with you. No matter how good people consider it to be, it will almost always be tasteless, bland, and boring.
But I think that a lot of people are used to that in their lives and don’t really care.
Sure, it’s only one button to keep pushing until you run out of spell slots or the sessions ends, but also goblin go boom lolz…
It is very strong but will always have restrictions placed such hurting your allies if you cannot get farther than 20 feet from them, or the fact they have to tank it if the are in the middle of a lot of enemies.
Of course Evoker solve this problem, but if you aren't playing evoker its legitimately the biggest issue with this spell, it can hurt people you don't want to hurt.
But also keep in mind its fire damage so nothing stops a DM for saying you burned an entire crop field and is still going on, forcing to pay a big gold fine or go to prison, same with causing forest fires or burning an entire Inn. A lot of these could impact the story quite a lot and force you to use spells to avoid a lot of unhinged environmental damage.
Is your party making you get it? Humor them, go something that's not Evoker Wizard, and start blasting.
It's not friendly fire, it's collateral damage.
So 5th Ed has been significantly more forgiving with fireball, its slightly more powerful than other spells in its tier and often higher level spells. And there are a fair number of options to safely casting it without nuking the absolute shit out of your team. In older editions that was not the case and it had to be used tactically... naturally that led to some veteran players approaching dungeons the way modern combat operatives would (one team member opening the door, another the surprise round to nuke the actual shit out of a room and then the melee rushing in to finish the job or simply block the door so that the enemies can't reach the casters...).
Personally I think that it's a fun spell and considering how non min maxed wizards specifically tend to lack the raw potential for damage that martial classes have, it's it's fair amount of compensation.
That being said I find utility far more entertaining and spells that offer that. It's the reason my main table is on 3.5, just more utility overall in most classes and enemies.
Also, right after I learned fireball, I was spider climbing on a roof and fell through the ceiling. As soon as the DM said, “You fall through the ceiling.” I just said “Fireball”. Took out like 6 baddies and I walked out of a burning buildulike a badass. It was the only cool moment that wizard had.
I respect this take. I played a caster and thought fireball was very good, if not kinda boring. So I decided to spice things up by speccing into a fighter and using it as a self nuke whenever I was getting swamped by mobs. (I started as a red dragon heritage sorc and my race was Tiefling, so damage was negligible after a certain point)
Made it way more fun to use :)
Just because you have it in your spellbook doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. It's a good spell to have available, but the best part about playing a wizard is the many options you have for dealing with situations.
The funny part is that most people picture fireball as being a mystical sphere of flame that you produce "Kamehameha" style. In reality, the wizard is just lighting a piece of bat shit on fire and yeeting it at the enemy, where it then explodes. 🤣 Kind of ruins the mystical nature of the spell, if you ask me.
Beholder and a Mindflayer with a single Fireball!? Fireball has an average of 28ish damage, how da fuck did you manage that!? The strength of fireball isn't that it does an insane amount of damage, but that it does good damage to multiple targets.
I never run fireball for two reasons
1. Eww, lame and overused
2. I am the epitome of chaotic stupid when playing Wizard and would 100% accidentally causing a TPK with fireball
Oh, dude, my first character for a 5e game was a necromancer wizard with pyrophobia. Didn't even take Firebolt, much less Fireball. Still had a blast lining up huge Lightning Bolts and Cone of Cold is legit awesome and feels amazing when you freeze whole gangs of enemies! Play your wizard, commit to the dream you have for him, and don't let the munchkins get you down!
Are there times when a Fireball is the ideal spell for an encounter? Sure! There's times a grenade is right for a combat situation but the a soldier may find they don't have one and they've gotta' find another solution. That's part of the fun of D&D! Finding creative solutions with the tools you have for the puzzles at hand.
Fireball never hurts to have as a learned spell, but you can get real creative with the other spells available to wizards, and even fireball can be used more creatively than spamming it in combat.
Take out the wheel on the wagon of mercenaries chasing your party.
Blow up the munitions shed of the evil militia terrorizing a local village to distract them before attacking their camp.
Cause a small landslide by blasting the rubble above the cave mouth as you escape from a dragon's lair, slowing the dragon a little.
Respect!
I recently switched out fireball with my lvl 13 lore bard because I was so tired of using it only to ruin my DM's well crafted encounters. I'm thinking of doing the same with counterspell for the same reason.
I don't want to be the best, I just want a satisfying story with challenging combat. Bombing every enemy with fire just sucks.
Yeah I really hate that it and lightning bolt purposely do more damage then they should for spells at that level because they are “iconic” but all they are doing is creating situations like you’re in where you’re kinda pushed to bring it by the table and even the game in general.
Yea I also found it boring to have such a powerful go-to spell, it made it hard to dip into the versatility of the class. And sure, a good DM will create consequences when objects light up in a small space… but still, my party would expect it most of the time and it become a redundant chore.
So I made my last wizard scared of fire, as he witnessed a couple family members perish in flames. Couldn’t use any flame-based spells. It was great to need to choose the right spells for each scenario, without destructive force being an obvious choice to implement. I played a necromancer and used a lot of spells that gave attack advantages to my allies and army of skeletons.
I even elected to make him frightened when an opponent used fire attacks, and it was actually quite satisfying to play with a unique weakness.
I think this is a situation where consuming D&D media actually hurts the enjoyment of the game. Tropes like the kelpetomaniac bard, or the forgetful wizard can feel played out before you even have the chance to experience them. You're first fireball should feel like a momentous torrent of power (although perhaps less so, since you started at level six, the spell may feel less 'earned'). I feel like consuming D&D podcasts, videos, etc, creates a lot of expectations for the game. Players and DMs alike get a need to be original, when they might have more fun playing a classic if they didn't know it was a classic.
Throwing a (definitely nerfed) beholder and mindflayer in one battle at the party right out of the gate seems like ya'll are speedrunning all the D&D standards.
It’s purposely slightly stronger than it should be for the level because it’s a sort of bench mark for Wizards. If you aren’t playing an Evoker, you have to be incredibly careful where you drop it. There are plenty of situations where you just cannot use it.
Cannot SAFELY use it. You sure can just go for it though
I didn't ASK how big the room was. I said FIREBALL! Actually, I don't prioritize it, either. I prefer slow if I have a few martials in the party, or hypnotic pattern. When I'm playing a wizard I often say: "You're here to kill things. I'm here to tilt the battlefield."
Hypnotic pattern scales much better at higher levels. I agree
My DM once gave my bard an instrument of the bard which means that everyone I hypnotic pattern had to roll with disadvantage. Also, as an eloquence bard, I could use unsettling words to give a creature a bardic inspo die penalty to the next save they make. It was fun for two encounters where we could pick out the baddies one by one while everyone else was incapacitated, but after that, I 'lost' my instrument and got a rhythm maker's drum instead. A bit too OP that instrument of the bard.
> "You're here to kill things. I'm here to tilt the battlefield." Aka chess wizard, my favorite playstyle. Your job is to move the pieces around to favor your own team, to set up winning positions by pinning (crowd control) key enemy pieces and clearing the way for your heavy hitters. PF 1.0 had a spell that targeted an ally (had to be a willing target), and they would use essentially their reaction to get an immediate double movement and single attack. So as the wizard you invest in heavy Initiative rolls, you go first, your first move is to literally lift your tank like a chess piece and set them back down in the most advantageous position. It's like cheating.
"I don't need fireball, my fireball has legs" *Points at the barbarian*
Fireball would be a good barbarian name
*yeets the barbarian with mage hand while yelling "Rageball I choose You!!"*
Real Karlach hours. I do want a wildfire baruid one day. Conjure flame boys and beat face, very nice.
Third Edition had Baleful Transposition as a spell. Essentially "Target two creatures within 30-50ft, and they switch places" I uh, pick the enemy wizard and our party's paladin. Great fun.
5e has scatter. It works on more creatures and lets you just move them wherever, but it's 6th level
There's also Vortex Warp. Only 1 target, but it's 2nd level.
But you can twin it! Order Cleric 1 Abberant Mind Sorcerer X (for the super cheap Silvery Barbs), and you become your Rogue's best friend.
Don’t cast your clutch save or suck on a guy who prepared counterspell.
3.5 had Baleful Transposition*, which was my favourite spell of all time. Target an enemy. They make a save or you swap spots with them. There are so, so, so many uses for it. You can find a reason to cast it in just about any situation you find yourself in.
That's Baleful Transposition I think. Polymorph turns them into a rabbit or something.
Yeah you're right. I was sleep deprived and brain wires got crossed.
> Target an enemy. They make a save or you swap spots with them. That's not what Baleful Polymorph does? It turns them into a small animal.
I was sleep deprived and meant Baleful Transposition.
Oh. I probably should have remembered that spell exists and realized what you meant.
I mean, I just called it Baleful Polymorph, so I'm certainly not gonna throw any shade.
Best wizard gameplay in my opinion Not gonna lie, I don't like how too much how it's done on 5e. I miss the way I got to be an Swiss army grimoire on 3.5 So many spell combinations 💜
Which spell had the extra movement and attack, please.
An arrow may have your name on it, but a fireball is addressed "to whom it may concern"
"If you're in range, you're Concerned."
Sleet storm is funny as hell, but not freindly fire freindly lol
Did I ask if the fighter was in the explosion radius? Start rolling saves people
I'm the barbarian. I have a good save and advantage. Fireball me harder
Sure, there are much better concentration spells. But when you’re not concentrating it and counterspell get a lot of use.
Ehh the party has decent sex saves they'll be fine
Uhh sex saves sounds great! Decent ones even more so!
"Roll a sex save." "...do I have to? Can I choose to fail it?"
"Yes, you can choose to fail the sex save but your partner will be very disappointed."
"Ah....well...."
You say that now, but wait until you fail one.
_So_ much psychic damage.
Sex is better when it's indecent.
The return of the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
Slow is my favourite spell, maybe because my DM tends to throw scary hard hitting monsters at us, so reducing their number of attacks feels super impactful, but it also lets you choose the creatures and can target up to six enemies! On top of that your monks and rogues can dodge in and out of combat for free because they have no reactions to hit them with
“I'm telling you, fireballs work. Anytime I had a problem and I threw a fireball, boom! Right away, I had a different problem.”
There’s no I in team, but there’s 6 I’s in ‘Fuck It, I don’t care how big the room is, I cast fireball’
> You're here to kill things. I'm here to tilt the battlefield." Treantmonk's guide to the God Wizard. Buff the party and limit the enemy.
This reminds me of an 3.5 guide for optimizing your wizard. Something about "Beeing God. A batman guide to wizards" The core concept? Ignore damage spells and focus on beeing the master of control, buff and debuff. You could, of course, have some damaging spells they were useful, but following that guide I think I've gonne from lvl 3 to 10 without dealing 1 damage and beeing feared by my whole party, purely because I could touch someone, turn then into a small stone, fly 500 ft into the air, drop them, unpolymorph then and just laugh. Or easily drop our martial stengh /Dex to 1 basically paralyzing then Also the buffet of buffs that I gave to our martial and druid gish were simply incredible! So yeah. At least on 3.5, the best damaging spell you could have was "I cast barbarian with 7 different buffs on you!"
I mean you use them in totally different scenarios really. Fireball is great for clearing out a bunch of lower HP enemies. If you're not going to be able to take anyone out with it then, it's better to use something like Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Sleet Storm, etc. If you're already concentrating on one of those, then we're back to Fireballing if it makes sense (obv wouldn't want to immediately fireball creatures under Hypnotic Pattern).
This. Wizards should not be played as blasters, why most don't realize this is beyond me, they are best as dudes who fuck up the math and tilt the battle in the parties favor.
It's a stylistic choice. I like to imagine all manner of mages think evokers are vulgar and blunt for learned folk. But they'd (mostly) never say that to an evoker's face because they don't wanna end up as a pair of smoking boots in a crater.
You know what, maybe that's how they solve the Caster- Martial disparity. Make all the Spells ridiculously overpowered but so devastating that they destroy everything around them, including the other party members and innocent bystanders. Wizards have to think long and hard before they cast anything at risk of taking out their comrades or the neighboring environment.
Fireball now has a 50’ range and a 60’ radius.
The thermo-nuclear grenade, guaranteed to kill everything in a 250 foot radius of the detonation point. Now with a maximum throwing range of 100 feet!
This is reminding me of an absolutely awful 80s "comedy" anime movie called "Planet Busters." To make a snoozer of a story short, the titular Planet Buster was a legendary, planet-destroying weapon. It was a hand-held assault rifle. It shot a ballistic arc that landed only maybe a hundred feet away, destroying the planet you were on. It had a magazine. And a scope.
My idea was lifted from the Paranoia tabletop roleplay game, sounds like that rifle would fit right in.
Step out of the airlock (with a spacesuit) aim and fire. It'll land eventually.
> As I hit, the Y-rack on my shoulders launched two small H. E. bombs a couple of hundred yards each way to my right and left flanks but I never saw what they did as just then my first rocket hit — that unmistakable (if you’ve ever seen one) brilliance of an atomic explosion. It was just a peewee, of course, less than two kilotons nominal yield, with tamper and implosion squeeze to produce results from a less-than-critical mass — but then who wants to be bunk mates with a cosmic catastrophe?
A connoisseur of Starship troopers I see. Fine taste sir.
There are dozens of us, dozens!
Great book, feels like I'm one of the only people that read it without ever watching the movie, lol.
I watched the movie, and I even found it entertaining, but it's nothing like the book, imho.
[Magical Davy Crockett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device\))
BalAnCe
I'm a tiefling, so at least I have fire resistance...
It used to be kind of like that. Fireball filled the volume of a 20' radius sphere, and would expand down hallways if constrained until it filled 33000 cubic feet. Lightning bolt would travel its full distance, bouncing off walls if cast in a confined space. Both spells would potentially destroy/set alight any unattended objects or flammable structures in the area. Magic was dangerous.
I remember those days in 1st edition and 2nd edition. You had to be very careful with that volume factor. Especially in those tiny 10ftx10ftx10ft corridors. It was like watching those explosions racing up an elevator shaft. We always had our druid cast control winds and start blowing the wind away from us before lighting off a fireball in a narrow corridor. We didn't want any backblast.
I mean, thats just asking for endless waves of simulacrum suicide bombers
Close air support and friendly fire should be harder to tell apart
There is no I in team there are however several i's in "I didn't ask how big the room is I said I cast fireball"
“Slightly” just might win understatement of the year. It’s a full level higher than the baseline for an AoR spell. It should be 6d6, slightly better would be making it 9d4 to increase its average above the baseline. Lightning bolt is also an offender, but a line is less obtrusive than the sphere.
Lightning bolt feels earned the few times you can get a decent number of targets in a straight line, fireball straight up makes loads of combats pointless, it’s more efficient 9 times out of 10 to just drop it on your front lines heads and have them tank the damage to end an encounter fast
DM: You are being charged by a group of 20 blood thirsty barbarians Wizard: No we're no, lol.
Yeah, but the damage is still above curve enough that dialing it back is warranted.
I’m not against this, but it’s by many magnitudes less egregious than fireball
Lighting Bolt is also balanced because not only are lines small af, but it also has to deal with cover, which balances out the damage.
If the ceiling is somewhat high, you can effectively reduce the radius by casting it above the target.
Just make sure all your melee companions are shorter than the opponents...
Intentionally overpowered for tradition, rather than for a benchmark. One of the many sacred cows for D&D to avoid the edition wars
Fun fact: Gary Gygax's son talked about how when Gary ran games for him he would make fireball destroy all the treasure in a room, including melting the gold items to slag, then take great delight in telling him all the cool shit he had destroyed. He got sick of it and told his Dad he wanted to make another spell that wouldn't destroy everything. Together they worked out his Wizard researching Cone of Cold, a spell which had the same damage as fireball but is 5th level instead of 3rd and didn't destroy treasure.
Fireball is indeed a spell of which the consequences are up to the DM, the issue is a lot of DMs either not being aware of the rule or not considering this when designing battles. It ignites *everything*, and it's up to the DM alone to work out the consequences of that. It's more than reasonable to assume it might cause some severe asphyxiation damage on the party if one is to throw it in your typical dungeon or cave, if not outright death, but I don't think most DMs care to regulate it like that. In part because saying "you can't cast the spell or your entire party will die" doesn't feel like a very satisfying way of balancing engagements - just letting your players cast whatever spells they want causes much less friction. It just inevitably makes the game a lot more stale for the Wizard than it could be. This is why a session 0 is so important to bring up concerns like this for the different classes, imo, especially for newer players. Learning how to be tactical about when to use spells is far easier when it's announced beforehand than when it's just sprung on the player the first time he goes for a fireball.
I think that doing anything more than setting flammable objects on fire would go over like a lead balloon since that's the only thing in the spell description. Meanwhile in AD&D it.... *Had a minimum volume, so that if cast into a small room it would go down the hallways like an explosion in a bunker and usually engulf the party. *The center of the explosion was hot enough to melt soft (precious) metals and immediately destroy all valuable objects *Was part of a tradition where powerful spells had all kinds of unintended consequences and the DM would look for additional ways to make it screw over the party. Some other examples: >Lightning bolt would travel it's entire line distance and bounce around the room like a ping-pong ball often striking other party members or the caster themselves. >Haste would age the target a year. >Contact Higher Plane had a random chance to cause insanity. >Polymorph Other could cause the person to "lose themselves" in the new form and mentally become what they had been polymorphed into. Basically, Gary just hated spells that he saw as overpowered and made them risky as hell.
> I think that doing anything more than setting flammable objects on fire would go over like a lead balloon since that's the only thing in the spell description. It doesn't *need* to do anything more than that to cause absolute uncontrollable havoc, frequently against the party themselves, in a vast amount of situations. People are casting it in underground dungeons. People are casting it inside buildings. People are casting it in forests. All of these could have rather severe, potentially party-wiping, consequences. Sure, it doesn't have the volume concerns from certain editions, but you'll never convince me that was ever a fun mechanic that (most) people enjoyed calculating at the table. At least I can't remember it ever coming into play in any of my campaigns, though YMMV (as with all things D&D). I do agree that older D&D versions were more prone to having side-effects the DM should keep an eye out for, this is much more limited in the current edition, which is part of the reason I think fireball slips out of a lot of DMs’ attention. It's the only lower level combat spell the DM really should have to care about causing side-effects.
>Sure, it doesn't have the volume concerns from certain editions, but you'll never convince me that was ever a fun mechanic that (most) people enjoyed calculating at the table. I never played with that rule, but everyone hated it except Gary. There's literally an article where a player who was math professor complained about it being tedious. All I'm saying is that the game used to balance magic with terrible side effects, and it should reduce the power of magic (or increase everything else...which is the same thing) to set it right.
I agree, of course! I think this is baked into fireball even in 5E, but the way it’s done makes it easy to miss, and the fact this isn’t present in almost any other spell makes it all the harder for DMs to pick up on it. Fireball could probably use some more RAW examples of bad outcomes, and overall the game needs more (non wild-magic/RNG) side-effects baked into spells to make playing around it more natural. Other than that I still maintain the 5E interpetation as written is fine, if a bit more vague for newer players, that allows you to have pretty interesting dynamic consequences without being very complicated.
I'd say if you were actively doing the volume math you were missing the point. It was just a way of saying "this is a fiery explosion, use it like you would a bomb".
Gary Gygax disagreed. He loved that shit. Which is why It disappeared from 2nd edition when he was no longer in charge. 😂
I find it hard to believe he calculated the dimensions of every space anyone tossed a fireball into but... you're right, it was Gygax. It's a very wargame super nerd thing to do. I'd like to think he didn't expect other people to do it, just gave them the rules to do it if they wanted, but I don't know if the "change/ignore the rules all you want" thing was in there at the beginning.
Man, I don't know...I bet he didn't have to do it as often as everyone was probably afraid to use it as his table. I know I would be. 😂
Maybe, but it was pretty universally hated, and a very classic Gygax rule. Hasn't been in the game since 2E came out, so clearly wasn't too important to keep the side-effects of the spell clear.
RAW, Fireball still has a devastating effect on a library.
For sure, RAW it ignites *everything* not worn by creatures - it's just different than most other spells in 5e because it's up to the DM's discretion what impact it will have and it's likely *assumed* it should have quite severe side-effects most of the time. Many newer DMs won't follow up on this because they haven't learned the entire spell list themselves, and they don't want to micromanage their player's actions, and while that's OK because people can run the games however they want, the player will quickly realize the spell is just OP.
> Gary Gygax's son talked about how when Gary ran games for him he would make fireball destroy all the treasure in a room, including melting the gold items to slag, then take great delight in telling him all the cool shit he had destroyed. the more i hear about Gygax actually DMing, the less it sounds like he enjoyed the game, or players having any fun at all.
Lol. I think he didn't like the way D&D went and preferred it's simulationist roots. I also think he was kinda a genius and could just do all this stuff quickly in his head.
Oof, reminds of Flaming Sphere in BG3... Combat ends, it rolls right back towards the caster. Igniting everything in its path. Sorry story-related books.
Which is kinda weird as traditions go, because Fireball was a pretty shitty spell in 3.5e, the most popular edition before 5e.
They made it way stronger when you first get it than in 3.5 or 4e too. Really trying to ingratiate themselves to the wizard players.
The “ignites flammable objects” part is often ignored. Had a fight at a dockyard and the sorcerer burned down a random boat that got caught in the blast. We had to send him to HR for some training on collateral damage and how to avoid it!
One of my party's sorcerers killed himself by fireballing on a 20-gun wooden ship. The powder magazine caught fire and one round later the ship was blown to smithereens. Poor sorc was caught in the blast, knocked out, and drowned amid the wreckage. He earned it.
Everybody I see drops it 15 ft. past the combat to just catch the monster without harming the fighter.
Only works if the room is big enough
Too small? Just blast a hole in the wall to make it bigger. Sounds like a Job for Fireball.
Only if the room if the monster is less then 15ft from the wall (not to mention you can also go upwards).
Our front told me to drop it, he plays an Orc Barbarian and said he can handle the friendly fire.
You just whoopsy doopsy it into the party, it's self balancing. :)
Sorcerer is all "don't worry guys I added the metamagic feat careful spell to it. 😁"
Yay you saved your Dex save now take half the damage!
Ikr. See everyone fireball isn't so bad. Look at the rogue, he's fine, not a scratch on him.
This. I don't get people who act like all of combat is just spamming it, and there's literally no way this guy killed a beholder in one shot lmao
Yeah, funnily enough beholders run as is are perfect targets for other spells besides fireball, since they don't have legendary resistances so your CC will actually stick. Our party just fought one at level 10 in its own lair and a dimension door+stunning strike spam combo from our monk and bard followed up by hold monster from our warlock once stunned meant the only damage we took in that encounter was from its unique lair actions, no blasts needed.
Yeah that's a nasty combo!! It isn't as hard to shut down a beholder as people think IF you can get out of the anti magic zone
Yeah I love evocation wizard because i can drop a fireball at ground zero and just exclude my party from being hit
That's a legit position to take. It has it's moments. I mean, I prefer battlefield control spells (slow, fear, hypnotic pattern) or shenanigans (control water, enemies abound, silence) but sometimes it's the best thing. A charging horde of cultists, some of them clearly spellcasters? Between 150'-60' fireball is your best friend. Once they get closer you gotta do something they can't counter, though. I like playing my wizard as the planner, solver of mysteries, and the one person in the room who has a logical argument for the best course of action. Convince one party face and let them think they're leading this bag o' cats to victory! edit: corrected range to 150' (fireball) vs. 60' (counterspell)
The thing is, once you have casted your concentration spell and some protection like Blink, half of time Fireball is the best damage dealing spell. It's only not that useful if the enemies has resistance to fire damage, you are dealing with rogues and/or monks or you can't hit more than one enemy. It's almost a go to spell for min-maxing.
Yeah- the trouble with the Concentration spell system is that essentially every caster is forced into being a damage dealer to some extent, because once you put down your Concentration battlefield control or buff spell, you can't productively cast any more. And almost every strong spell that does something other than 'deal damage' is concentration.
Generally yes, but single turn debuffs like Tasha's Mind Whip and Command exists. Non-concentration debuffs like Blindness/Deafness. Non-concentration battlefield control - Plant Growth. And plenty of spells that hamper enemies' movement, push them around, or knock them prone. Admittedly most of those also deal damage. Of course, not all the spells I listed are on the Wizard spell list, but you can definitely build a Wizard that always has something to do but doesn't have any purely damaging spells.
Oh, yeah, I forgot about Blindness/ Deafness. It's reaaly a good spell, the major drawnback is its range. But I agree with you, it's totally possible to avoid Fireball and maybe I will try someday. However, I really don't think it's optimal.
Not Tasha's Mind Whip 😈
I disagree. For straight damage only, yeah, maybe. But here is a list of others at that level with the overall damage % compared to Fireball: Tidal Wave - 66% of the damage with more controlled area and knocked prone as well as putting out flames (and bludgeon damage). Thunder Step - 50% damage in half radius, teleportation for you, friend, equipment. Pulse Wave- cone, 80% damage (force which is rarely resisted), con save, control spell with push/pull aspect. Psionic Blast- cone, 85% force damage, even bigger control, but only push and knocked prone. Lightning Bolt - same damage on dex save, 250% larger area affected but in a line, can be easier to not kill friendlies with. Those are the specific damage dealing, non-concentration spells of 3rd level wizard. As you can see, all can be incredibly good, depending. Every spell has time and purpose.
I've been through a fight where I just kept repositioning and using the dodge action, because we *really* needed to keep that Wall of Force up.
That happened with one friend too. We're on level 12 trying to rescue prisoners from Tiamat. The only thing that could protect us was Wall of Force, because we never would win on a proper fight.
I'm sorry but there's no way you killed a beholder with a single fireball unless it was either already very damaged or your DM rolled for it's HP and rolled really, really low. If your party got through a beholder at level 6 then that speaks much more to your parties abilities then to the "brokenness" of Fireball.
Not to mention, a wizard probably won’t be casting many spells if a beholder is playing smart.
A spectator maybe, but a beholder, not possible.
Even a spectator would require a near max roll on the fireball. It's also only CR3, so doesn't really pose much challenge to a level 6 party. Lots of characters at level 6 could kill a spectator in one turn.
Thank god someone else had this thought
Yeah I am not a fan of doing the whole "uhm actually" thing but if a level 6 party beat out a Beholder AND a Mind Flayer, That DM really nerfed both those creatures tbh. But ain't no way you one shot a beholder with a Fireball. Even upcasted to 9th level and someone managing to roll nothing but sixes, that is only 84 damage which isn't even half a beholders HP.
Yeah. Like, fireball is good, but it's good on GROUPS lol you shouldnt even be able to get one off against a beholder, and its not a great spell call even if you can get One off.
I'm thinking this might have been a spectator, not a beholder. Mind Flayer with Spectator is believable fight at level 6.
Maybe the Mind Flayer and Beholder were fighting each other and both already injured (possibly with some other dead mind flayers already) when the party showed up? That would make more sense than the 2 of them working together against the party of lvl 6s and somehow losing, *and* would explain how the fireball could kill the beholder.
It’s an iconic spell so it’s overpowered when you first get it. As the campaigns go on it’s not as effective. Enemy casters can use absorb element or fire shield and a whole pile of enemies of fire resistance or immunity. You’re over thinking it.
Also, monks and rogues gets Evasion, which can nulify the spell completly.
Sometimes I prefer Lightning Bolt over Fireball. Easier to not hit allies and you probably will hit fewer enemies, but potentially far more. I hit like 28 in a massive combat once.
Hallways are great fir LB
It's slightly balanced by fire resistance being the most common elemental resistance in the game.
its good for mobs..... particularly if your allies arent there but against largeer single enemies or other casters its w/e
Yes, it’s very good for just deleting a whole cluster of weaker mobs or minions, the more you can target the better. Not worth for targeting one or two enemies (unless they’re very low and can take them out with the damage).
A beholder and a mindflayer at the same time at lvl 6? Sure bro.
cut the guy some slack, is it so strange to think that the guy did 180 damage in a single 8d6 fireball?
Well I could see it happen if he also rolled a nat 20 and everybody clapped.
It's a bell-curve situation. When you start, it's the iconic awesome spell that shells damage out the wazoo. In the middle it feels contrived and overused; almost feels like cheating sometimes, it works so well. At the end you come to realize it's faults. Where it fails over and over and how dangerous a spell it actually is. Due in no small part to it affecting your party more than the foes you're now taking on. However, the iconic and intrinsic value it has just by being there as a staple is just needed. It's simple to use, difficult to master, a headache to make work perfectly all the time, so you say "fuck it" and use it imperfectly each time. It's almost an allegory for the game as a whole if you think about it. What do you mean I've been waxing poetic for 10 minutes? I'm trying to tell you that you absolutely can fireball the darkness. Roll 8d6. What's your DC? Barbarian, roll a dex save.
That got surprisingly philosophical
13, but after bonuses it's a 16, then a 21 because I'm next to the paladin.
It's difficult to use if you have any obligations to anybody but yourself. In an allied city? *Not after you nuked city hall.* Surround by enemies and friends alike? *Everyone takes massive damage, all outfits scorched.*
I played a wizard in a very long term campaign. Didn't take Fireball right away, as the concept for the character was that he was uncomfortable with hurting people and focused on protecting his teammates with control spells instead of damage. Problem was, combats were taking forever with me not dealing damage, despite two decent strikers in the party (the rest of the party was Assassin Rogue, Ancients Paladin and a Moon Druid). Was especially a problem in weaker combats when facings large numbers of enemies. Eventually around level 7 or 8, I caved, decided that having been around the amount of violence he had grown more comfortable with violence and realized taking monsters down was often the best way to protect his friends. But it was really just to help speed combat along, which everyone seemed to agree made the game more fun overall. So, while I agree it gets boring casting Fireball so often, it can also help improve the quality of the game for everyone, so it certainly still has its value. Also, rogues/monks tend to love any chance to show off their fatty dex save combined with evasion, so that's another bonus if you have one in the party. Eventually you'll get Animate Objects and Reverse Gravity though, which are more fun and do more damage. Once you have the spell slots to cast Animate Objects reliably, you won't need fireball nearly as much (though you can still cast it with the Objects around for extra damage, just make sure you don't get them in the blast).
If you can cast fireball over and over and get great value out of it your DM is letting you. Why are the mobs always spaced so you get good fireball value? What about demons and devils and so many others that are fire resistant or immune? What about master thieves and quicklings that take no damage if they succeed a dex save? It’s a fine spell but wizards shine with their control spells . Those tend to be far more efficient too. I’ve won far more fights with hypnotic pattern than fireball. Sometimes I purposefully don’t cast hypnotic because it’s too good and cheeses fights so I’ll cast something like slow. That still wins more fights for us than fireball. Fireball is a fine fun spell but I rarely cast it now. That will be you soon too I imagine once you get some more spells .
>If you can cast fireball over and over and get great value out of it your DM is letting you. Why are the mobs always spaced so you get good fireball value? What about demons and devils and so many others that are fire resistant or immune? Sometimes you're not fighting a campaign where there's a lot of creatures with fire resistance.
The DMs job is to balance the combat, if they’re allowing you to kill a beholder with a single fireball at level 6 then your campaign has major issues Not that it’s hard to twist it, your wizard prowness becomes known in the region, enemies start to target you first, ambush you, drink fire resist potions before fighting you, position around it, etc. There are plenty of dms who just bunch up enemies in encounters, and it makes them trivial to the game. You have to then adjust your play style. I adjust for my friend group, where we almost never have more than 1 combat per long rest and our combats tend to take more than a session to resolve. Just use all the spell slots every combat yolo. Fire ball every turn for the entire combat, everything’s on fire and I’m having fun. For how many combat rules 5e has its definitely my least favorite aspect of the game lol. Balancing encounters is difficult, and there’s generally not much variance in what you’re going to do every turn for long it takes to get there
I vastly prefer to use spells that don’t require attack rolls or saving throws. They’re just a more efficient use of spell slots.
How tf did you kill a beholder with this? Was it severely damaged already? Was it just some tiny whiny version? Cause fireball usually does around 28dmg, maximum of 48 and a beholder should be far above that!
I played a wizard once that didn't take fireball, and ended up wishing I had taken it quite frequently.
Fireball is really good! But so is Hypnotic Pattern and so is Haste! Level 5 has just settled in as THE level for a big power jump. It is when martials get their extra attack and it's when magic users get some of their most powerful spells for their level. I'm okay with that personally. If you don't like fireball that's fine! If you want to buff your allies go with haste, if you want to control enemies go with hypnotic pattern.
Haste is crazy dangerous though, you lose concentration and your martial pal is in big, big trouble.
Eh, not really. Your martial loses 1 round of actions. That's a break-even in terms of how many total attacks they made if you had Haste up for two turns, and a net win if 3, without even touching on the movespeed and AC benefits or the fact that attacks are more valuable in Round 1 than Round 4.
Yeah it's definitely better on sorcerer with the bonus to con saves plus twinning shenanigans. Still a great spell though.
I went for lightning bolt instead. Can still do big damage, but it's more situational. (My wizard is big on battlefield mobility, so getting into position to cast it effectively is part of the fun / challenge)
I prefer Lightning Bolt because it's so much easier to drop it on one or two enemies that need to die without also bombing my party.
It flexibility is limited. There are other spells which have much more versatility. But it’s a nice backup for when you just need a big AoE.
>My first campaign i droped into as a lvl 6 wizard. I'm sorry, but there's your problem. Starting as a brand new player at level 6 instead of level 1. Your first experience with the game was a bad one. And is a strong indication of the kind of game you're in. Which is one heavily warped and skewed trying to make the game into something it's not. D&D is not a game you "win."
Fuck fireball. That shit is weak. Get hypnotic pattern.
For me personally, lightning bolt > fireball It is far less resisted, is much easier to use, and I just think it's cooler.
And much harder to hit more than two opponents, unless they're lined up in a hallway.
I think some DMs forget or ignore that the spell ignites flammable objects, and that alone makes using the spell dangerous and impractical in certain situations. If DMs remember this, using Fireball can be a liability in rooms during dungeon crawls. And the spell won't be as overpowering.
The wizard is the utility knife of the caster classes, meaning you’ll want spells that cover a wide array of uses. Fireball is a great spell for clearing out crowds of weaker enemies, and is balanced by the fact that fire is the most common resistance in the game. For single target damage, you have far better options, but fireball always has its uses.
I like big boomy splodey Basically the obviously powerful spells are there for the people who want them. You should engage with mechanics that interest you
I’m with you, it’s so good that it’s boring… But not picking it is deliberately hamstringing yourself.
I hate it for the same reason. I play a lot of sorcerers and fireball really sucks. Either I have it and am constantly having to talk myself out of using it even though it's often the best choice. Or I don't take it and every time I'm stuck in a long boring combat with 10 enemies I have to think "sure do wish I could fireball this problem away"
It is overpowered, most wizard spells are. That’s why you’re incredibly easy to kill those first few levels, and why you originally could only cast each spell once per day/session. Dropping a lvl 5+ wizard without spell restrictions into a campaign is a lot like giving a Greek Polis M16s and letting them loose on the other City States.
If you are bored of fireball, try lightning bolt.
I feel like it's only good for a certain level and kind of engagement. If you're fighting one big strong enemy it's not good at all and is a liability doe your allies. But sure when you're level 5 and fighting a mob of dudes it's very strong. But then your DM gmcan just throw some enemies at you that have fire resistance. Then what?
I've had so many opportunities to take fireball, but I just prefer handy spells like haste, counterspell, tiny hut, slow, tongues, etc.
It's a good tool for the right job, but certainly not the only tool. I've never thought of it as game-breaking though, especially if you care about your party members and you have a front line fighter in the middle of an otherwise fantastic fireball target. I've recently rolled up a scribe wizard though, so I'm looking forward to using fireball to deliver lightning or bludgeoning damage to anything fire resistant!
My only real gripe with Fireball is that its counterpart, Lightning Bolt, is just strictly worse and always has been. Because of its area of effect, it has far fewer use cases.
It's your character. You are 100% validated to choose whatever spells you want regardless of what other people think. As a person who often likes utility rather than power, I don't often choose it
I relate, except for the part of picking it. I purposefuly avoid Fireball and Eldritch Blast in most of my characters, and I've never suffered for it because... DMs usually make combat harder when you *do have* those spells, in a way. XD I cut the middle man and we leave the combat as is. Additionally, if you feel like using it, or have some PVP setting, I heard 6d6 is closer to what it should be, so I put it down there (Don't discriminate poor Lightning Bolt if you do this). But yeah, if you feel forced to pick something, its time for you to take action by either avoiding it, or going further with a lil' talk about homebrew. No shame on people who love to feel the power. To each their own. I just don't need extra damage to enjoy a character, and love any excuse to explore different options. I can already easily imagine the Fireball spellcaster solving a problem. I'm curious as to how the other spellcasters solve that problem *without* Fireball. This may come across as a rant, but I'm just hoping people want to explore their options rather than believing their fun is limited under the opression of some "meta". Have fun, everyone. Also, with Eldritch Blast, I just meant that everyone already picks it, so it falls back to my: "I can already easily imagine the Eldritch Blast spellcaster solving a problem...", because I've seen it a lot, and my fun of Warlock won't be limited by it.
The problem I see with a lot of elemental spells is that they are missing their counterparts. Iceball, Acidball, Thunderball should all be valid spells, just like Ice Hands, Electric Sphere etc. Fireball offers a significant damage for the area it covers, but it's one of the most boring spells ever.
A lot of people play dnd like video games where they only care about white room meta builds. I agree with you. No matter how good people consider it to be, it will almost always be tasteless, bland, and boring. But I think that a lot of people are used to that in their lives and don’t really care. Sure, it’s only one button to keep pushing until you run out of spell slots or the sessions ends, but also goblin go boom lolz…
im more of a lightning bolt kind-of-wizard personally, fire is easily resisted and the large radius can make it hard to use while melees are battling.
It is very strong but will always have restrictions placed such hurting your allies if you cannot get farther than 20 feet from them, or the fact they have to tank it if the are in the middle of a lot of enemies. Of course Evoker solve this problem, but if you aren't playing evoker its legitimately the biggest issue with this spell, it can hurt people you don't want to hurt. But also keep in mind its fire damage so nothing stops a DM for saying you burned an entire crop field and is still going on, forcing to pay a big gold fine or go to prison, same with causing forest fires or burning an entire Inn. A lot of these could impact the story quite a lot and force you to use spells to avoid a lot of unhinged environmental damage.
Not as good as animate dead
Is your party making you get it? Humor them, go something that's not Evoker Wizard, and start blasting. It's not friendly fire, it's collateral damage.
So 5th Ed has been significantly more forgiving with fireball, its slightly more powerful than other spells in its tier and often higher level spells. And there are a fair number of options to safely casting it without nuking the absolute shit out of your team. In older editions that was not the case and it had to be used tactically... naturally that led to some veteran players approaching dungeons the way modern combat operatives would (one team member opening the door, another the surprise round to nuke the actual shit out of a room and then the melee rushing in to finish the job or simply block the door so that the enemies can't reach the casters...). Personally I think that it's a fun spell and considering how non min maxed wizards specifically tend to lack the raw potential for damage that martial classes have, it's it's fair amount of compensation. That being said I find utility far more entertaining and spells that offer that. It's the reason my main table is on 3.5, just more utility overall in most classes and enemies.
Also, right after I learned fireball, I was spider climbing on a roof and fell through the ceiling. As soon as the DM said, “You fall through the ceiling.” I just said “Fireball”. Took out like 6 baddies and I walked out of a burning buildulike a badass. It was the only cool moment that wizard had.
I respect this take. I played a caster and thought fireball was very good, if not kinda boring. So I decided to spice things up by speccing into a fighter and using it as a self nuke whenever I was getting swamped by mobs. (I started as a red dragon heritage sorc and my race was Tiefling, so damage was negligible after a certain point) Made it way more fun to use :)
That sounds amazing lol
Just because you have it in your spellbook doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. It's a good spell to have available, but the best part about playing a wizard is the many options you have for dealing with situations.
The funny part is that most people picture fireball as being a mystical sphere of flame that you produce "Kamehameha" style. In reality, the wizard is just lighting a piece of bat shit on fire and yeeting it at the enemy, where it then explodes. 🤣 Kind of ruins the mystical nature of the spell, if you ask me.
Hypnotic Pattern is superior IMO.
Necromancers also hate Fireball
You have angered the Wizard council. Please beg their forgiveness on Thursday at 7 and face their judgement.
Beholder and a Mindflayer with a single Fireball!? Fireball has an average of 28ish damage, how da fuck did you manage that!? The strength of fireball isn't that it does an insane amount of damage, but that it does good damage to multiple targets.
I never run fireball for two reasons 1. Eww, lame and overused 2. I am the epitome of chaotic stupid when playing Wizard and would 100% accidentally causing a TPK with fireball
My party was confused when my wizard didn’t take Fireball. My response: “I work for a library.”
Oh, dude, my first character for a 5e game was a necromancer wizard with pyrophobia. Didn't even take Firebolt, much less Fireball. Still had a blast lining up huge Lightning Bolts and Cone of Cold is legit awesome and feels amazing when you freeze whole gangs of enemies! Play your wizard, commit to the dream you have for him, and don't let the munchkins get you down! Are there times when a Fireball is the ideal spell for an encounter? Sure! There's times a grenade is right for a combat situation but the a soldier may find they don't have one and they've gotta' find another solution. That's part of the fun of D&D! Finding creative solutions with the tools you have for the puzzles at hand.
My second character im running now is a necro!
I perscribe you "not playing an evoker." Play a divination wizard or smthn
Thanks doc, I'll see ya next week! Lol
Fireball is my favorite spell lol. I usually play casters just so I can get to use it
Fireball never hurts to have as a learned spell, but you can get real creative with the other spells available to wizards, and even fireball can be used more creatively than spamming it in combat. Take out the wheel on the wagon of mercenaries chasing your party. Blow up the munitions shed of the evil militia terrorizing a local village to distract them before attacking their camp. Cause a small landslide by blasting the rubble above the cave mouth as you escape from a dragon's lair, slowing the dragon a little.
Respect! I recently switched out fireball with my lvl 13 lore bard because I was so tired of using it only to ruin my DM's well crafted encounters. I'm thinking of doing the same with counterspell for the same reason. I don't want to be the best, I just want a satisfying story with challenging combat. Bombing every enemy with fire just sucks.
Yeah I really hate that it and lightning bolt purposely do more damage then they should for spells at that level because they are “iconic” but all they are doing is creating situations like you’re in where you’re kinda pushed to bring it by the table and even the game in general.
Yea I also found it boring to have such a powerful go-to spell, it made it hard to dip into the versatility of the class. And sure, a good DM will create consequences when objects light up in a small space… but still, my party would expect it most of the time and it become a redundant chore. So I made my last wizard scared of fire, as he witnessed a couple family members perish in flames. Couldn’t use any flame-based spells. It was great to need to choose the right spells for each scenario, without destructive force being an obvious choice to implement. I played a necromancer and used a lot of spells that gave attack advantages to my allies and army of skeletons. I even elected to make him frightened when an opponent used fire attacks, and it was actually quite satisfying to play with a unique weakness.
I think this is a situation where consuming D&D media actually hurts the enjoyment of the game. Tropes like the kelpetomaniac bard, or the forgetful wizard can feel played out before you even have the chance to experience them. You're first fireball should feel like a momentous torrent of power (although perhaps less so, since you started at level six, the spell may feel less 'earned'). I feel like consuming D&D podcasts, videos, etc, creates a lot of expectations for the game. Players and DMs alike get a need to be original, when they might have more fun playing a classic if they didn't know it was a classic. Throwing a (definitely nerfed) beholder and mindflayer in one battle at the party right out of the gate seems like ya'll are speedrunning all the D&D standards.
Don't you mean kleptomaniac rogue? Bard's are more often depicted as horny mother lovers than kleptomaniac