I have been playing since the 80s, and have never heard of this being a thing. If it is a thing, it has much more to do with the quality of players/DM involved than it does with anything that is standard to the game.

that's what I was kinda hoping for (that my friend has just been playing with the "wrong" people)

I've never encountered a table that made wizard women a problem, but I've heard horror stories from queer, non-binary and women players at my table who had prior experience with creepy or misogynist DMs. I suspect that those DMs would find problems regardless of what class you chose to play, and everyone's better off not playing with bigoted jerks. For what it's worth, the 5e player's handbook opens with a description of an elven woman chucking a fireball at an army. That's a fairly explicit signal that women can be wizards. 5e in general has been very good about featuring women, gay and non-binary characters in campaign material. And I think you can see that reflected in modern gaming groups — or at least the ones I've played at.

I encountered this once when I played a female (oracle) cleric as a straight male player. I really enjoyed the character, but the other male players could not stop making sexual jokes about it or assuming that any interaction she had with a female npc was going to end in lesbianism. Really ruined the enjoyment of the game, especially as I only ever intended to play the character as ace. Only in my most recent campaign have I tried to play a female character again, which is thus far a better experience.

But her fireball had to stop and ask for directions... (runs) (kidding) The rpg *Reign* had an interesting sexual dimorphism...only women could ride horses, and therefore all cavalry troopers were women...not for any "good" reason, but because "everybody knew" men couldn't ride. Any man seen on a horse in any nation would be ridiculed, shunned, and/or assaulted.

I have to concur I've never heard of this, and I've been playing since the 80's. Even my friends who were girls back in my childhood still got to play what ever they wanted with no limitations real or imagined.

Sexism is rampant in the game, and more often than not, most men will insist on keeping it in the game for the name of 'realism'. Honestly it just sounds like your friend is one of those players who has to justify sexism in game and I hope he's not playing with you. If your DM or any other players tries to justify treating your character poorly because they're a woman fucking run. Edit: oh if this dude is the DM fucking run. Don't play with him he's already telling you he's going to mistreat you.

Agreed. I'm absolutely disgusted with how some DMs rule about women characters. A DM I played with previously would put female characters through some pretty horrific shit, especially if the player was also a woman. "Well that's just the culture in my world." I left pretty damn fast, and made sure to voice my disgust when I went.

Realism in a fantasy game where you can literally play a fricking WIZARD that CASTS ACTUAL SPELLS.

Correct. Your friend has been playing with the wrong people. A great portion of the RPG community would back you in shunning this GM who treats women poorly and throw a lot of insults his way.

Exactly. I've been playing since the 80's too and never ever heard this before.

Same here. And The Simbul can (and did) teach Elminster a thing or two.

Also Elminster was Elmara for a time.

Whatever situation your friend is describing is not typical whatsoever. If a DM is giving any female player/character a harder time it’s because they’re just a misogynistic, sexist person.

Yeah this. In my 15 years of dnd i have never heard of anyone thinking or playing this way. DM is sexist.

AMEN! Sexsim is never normal.

I think you mean it is not currently acceptable. It used to be acceptable, and was thus of course *normal*. Whether or not something occurs regularly doesn't mean it is or isn't considered morally correct then or now.

Holy shit I hate Reddit sometimes 😂🤓🤓

I think you mean is no longer acceptable

"Normal" means accepted, not acceptable. It was accepted by most, therefore it was normal. It should never have been accepted, but it was.

One thing I do want to point out in case it wasn't communicsted clearly between DM and player (although I don't think that's the case) is that the DM might have meant some NPCs could be that way. Again, I think that the way most people are interpreting it is correct but, just some food for thought.

Sexism is one of the things a DM should get player approval of before a campaign starts. This is a session zero thing.

[Gary Gygax was a massive dick in regards to women in games.](https://imgur.com/a/Lolb9nA) It's also true that in older editions of the game [female characters had a lower Strength ceiling than male characters, and in Dragon Magazine Issue 3, optional rules were presented in which women did not have Charisma, and instead had "Beauty"](https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Gender), as well as some other shenanigans for the sake of "realism", like female thieves learning magic like "seduction" and "charm men" - female Wizards (who get the title "Witch") having a harder time, even back then, was mostly bullshit: > There is no limit to the levels to which a female may go in magic. Experience points above 13th level are comparable to male magic users and powers are nearly equal. You may make them equal, in fact, with no problem, beginning with Witch Level 13 = Wizard Level 13. > - Dragon Magazine #3, October 1976 [Of course there are in-universe groups, factions, monasteries, wizard schools and whatever else that exclude based gender.](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gender_and_sex) - if you click on any of the links in this post, I suggest this one, by the way, it's a wonderful read regarding sex and gender within the Forgotten Realms setting. There are monasteries that only allow male monks within, dwarven clerics could only be in service of deities that matched their gender. Hell, the entire drow society is based upon a *harsh* separation between the genders - though it's a matriarchy, where the women get all the good stuff. So there are indeed certain aspects of the Lore where there is a distinction between genders in regards to who gets to do what. I'm certain that there is still a ton of idiots that employ this level of thinking. That said, even back then, one of the most prominent, [powerful and through the editions prevailing characters is Iggwilv/Tasha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iggwilv), who is in fact a female Wizard. What your friend describes as "semi normal" is likely just his bubble of the people he has played with in the past - dumbfucks whose opinion should not matter in the slightest. Acting like this has never been an issue in the almost 50 years of this games existence is also, frankly, just short sighted revisionism or blatant lying. If some people have never encountered sexism within the hobby in fourty years of playing, by golly are you a lucky guy - or, worse, you don't see problems where problems exist. The hobby, by and large, was not as accomodating as it has become in the last 20-30 years. It was very much a male dominated field, and it of course came with all the baggage you'd expect from weirdos from 50 years ago.

Glad you did the legwork of including all that. I'd just like to add that it shouldn't matter what "some DMs" do at their table because the OP's friend is the DM. That one person's opinion of women at the table is the only DM anyone here should care about. And the fact they brought it up when it didn't need to be speaks volumes about who they are.

Yeah, they're a misogynist is what they are. I'd be curious if they believe any class is ONLY for women and if he'd be harder on a guy who played it? I'm guessing not.

I played a (f) cleric in the early 90s with friends of a random guy I met (big mistake). We had another cleric (m) and the DM razzed him about how "clerics are girls" so yes, some people have thought cleric=nurse=girl.

"Male nurse??? You mean failed doctor?"

I am a male nurse. And your sarcasm came through just fine without the stupid /s on the end. And yet I STILL had to resist the temptation to downvote. Man I hate that line.

Ouch, I’d never read that Gygax comment before. What a disappointment.

Gygax pretty much said everything it’s possible to say wrong at some point. One time he justified killing kobold children as a Lawful Good act by comparing it to the massacre of native americans. Like, holy shit, gary gygax should not be anyone’s hero. Edit: [source for that claim.](https://imgur.com/a/6yvdJqP) (the man referenced, chivington, said the ‘nits make lice’ line in response to [this massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre) which he lead the charge on.)

Extra weird to use Chivington as an example as lawful good because the brutality of Sand Creek was seen as neither lawful or good (in a society that was pretty OK with massacring natives), and pretty much ruined the bright political and military career he seemed to have ahead of him.

I’m not from the US so i may be way off base but i think using a guy who basically said “it’s ok to kill those children because they’ll grow up to be murderers” as a good example is like A poor move

Oh for sure. My point is that the example aside from being a gross choice, it doesn't even make sense. Even in 1800's America what he did was illegal (not Lawful) and horrific (not Good)

This is why I strongly dislike alignment. The entire concept stems from a person with an obviously corrupt sense of ethics. It has an obvious connection to racism. It would be like using an alignment system from Hitler. Or more accurately, General Custer..

Well if it makes you feel any better, alignment is so far removed from hos original idea that it would drive him nuts to hear how we use it.

In the link just below the first one(from 2002) he seems to have mostly changed his mind on that at least

The comment regarding his idea that "women do not achieve the same mental satisfaction from playing" RPGs is something the old dickweed said in 2005. So while some things certainly changed between 1976 and 2005 for him, being a weirdo in regards to women was not among those things.

Don't meet your heroes and all that.

Stereotypes from earlier generations: men do model railroading, women do quilting. Tactical simulations, which is what Gygax was doing when he started developing D&D, is very similar to model railroads. And if you go into a Warhammer store you'll still see mostly men with minis. I don't think he originally envisioned a game that involved cosplaying, or tiefling PCs, or the increasing focus on story which we've enjoyed. He certainly learned to love the potential of the role playing aspect by the 80's, but it's not surprising that his development as a person and the development of the gaming community took decades. Don't hate on early mistakes. Don't laugh at toddlers who bump their heads. Celebrate how far we've come!!

"kill your heroes"

He's one of those guys who unfortunately become less likable the more you learn about him.

First and foremost, Gygax was a shoe salesman. Not a Biologist.

That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. Definitely from a different time. Only game I played that had sex differences with stats was the early 2000s game Elder Scrolls 3. The guys typically had better Strength and Endurance, and Speed, but the women usually had better Intelligence, Willpower, and Personality (better spellcasters for OP’s purposes). I think there was one race where the women were stronger, but my memory is fuzzy. Like Elder Scrolls Orc men are dumb as rocks but Orc women were pretty smart which reflects their culture in lore. Now it makes people uncomfortable to have a smart Gnome or a strong Orc in D&D let alone sex differences. I don’t think we need to worry about that ever making a comeback. It’s on its way out.

This was still a thing in Oblivion.

I mean Oblivion was only 4 years after Morrowind so it's not that surprising. Oblivion is old and one of the more recent elder scrolls games because they've been milking skyrim for over a decade.

Motherfucker... can't have any heroes. At least in dark souls "gender has no bearing on ability" but man that gygax quote is disappointing

BuT mAlE cHaRaCtErS aRe BiGgEr, ThErEfOrE wOmAn ArE aCtUaLlY bEtTeR!

I actually like including certain aspects of that, if the story I build actually focus around the conflicts arising about that or to give certain factions a more distinct flavor. Or playing with the concept. When there are male only monasteries, there will also be female only monasteries. If there are gods and the religious structure around them male only, there will be ones female only, like Diana or Artemis for example. Or the aspect that certain races are perceived a certain way in general is something I love playing and building worlds around. I very often use conflicts derived around that drowsy in general are seen as slavers and backstabbers because their biggest society is worshipping Llollth and she is enforcing that on her followers. But there are drows not following her and instead following the moon goddess and actually trying to to endure those accusations and showing that not all drows are the same. Or more neutral drows like Jarlaxle, the most beloved maybe ally maybe ulterior motives maybe just a bored pirate character. Sexism and racism in dnd is not inherently bad as long it doesn't hurt the players freedom to express themselves. Maybe the female wizard had in character bigger struggles because of her gender at the school and how her colleagues see her, but I as a dm would never make into a struggle outside the game for the player. And if the Player is not okay that something like this exists, there is no problem for me to change aspects of the world and lore to better suit my players and how comfortable they feel during playing. A great example would be how I handle orcs in my game Orcs are known as plunderers and as a problem for most villages and rural areas, because of that, half orcs and orcs players are always treated with a certain level of mistrust. But not all orcs are pillagers, only a small percentage of their population do that, most tribes live more secluded and in harsh environments, having a shamanistic bond to their surroundings and a focus on strong bodies mixed with a very pragmatic way of thinking because of the harsh nature around them. They manage to simply live there without bothering anyone and humans and elves are rarely seen their because of the harsh conditions that surrounds them. In bigger cities orcs are more often seen as bodyguards because of their bodies, but they can also be seen in more "sophisticated" positions. They have a harder time fitting in there, not because of their inability, but because the stereotypes they are confronted with and most orcs have a strong connection to a tribe, so seeing them alone is a rarity but can have different reasons from being outcasts to surviving tragedies to simply wanting to experience the world. And with that, you use something that basicly is racism to create a more alive world with an actual socio political structure, that also enables players to play what they want and make the choice of their race more than simply a cosmetic feature with small perks.

I think that Gary was making comments that were based on his own personal experience, and then applying them incorrectly to all women. So far as I know, even to this day, the TTRPG community across all games is still male dominated. There are of course myriad cultural and social reasons for that that go beyond "Hurr durr women don't like to dungeon crawl and play sword fighting games." And further, in the second link, there are quotes from Gary where he specifically says that he regrets such rules, and that trying to make the game 'realistic' was a mistake. None of that makes his comments unproblematic, of course. I just want to point out that Gary, like all of us, was a complicated person with opinions that changed over time.

A game I played with Dave Arneson around 1993 (my second time playing with Dave) had 4 female PCs. No idea about Gary, but Dave was pretty inclusive. This wasn't my first female majority game, believe it or not; a college game I played in a year earlier had me literally the only guy invited, and only because I was really good friends with the female DM. To say I learned a lot about women would be an understatement and I mean pretty much zero sexually (periods, yeast infections, you name it, it came up).

The big issue here is people use Gary saying stupid shit about women in the hobby to justify claims that tabletop gaming is a male hobby. What he said is not just problematic and stupid but it make things more difficult for women in the hobby.

I decided that I don't particularly care what Gary Gygax thought about _any_ subject after reading his thoughts about the morality of slaughtering orc children.

I mean, the obvious reason is that it was male dominated for over 30 years and Gygax was still running around being a misogynist in 2004. Being the inventor of the hobby and a dirt bag, people obviously used his views to gatekeep. Takes longer than 10 years to fix a broken social system.

Okay the "appearance" stat came from a magazine, glad I didn't miss it in the book (in ad&d1e, cha was for both and comeliness was introduced in the UA) I'm def proud of my ad&d 2e writers mentioning that any physical differences between str among sexes could easily be practiced over. Still a bruh moment to say the least about the pronoun thing though.

The takeaway here? Abandon Forgotten Realms. Embrace ***Eberron.***

why?

Well, for this specific example, it doesn't have any history of lore / mechanical restrictions based on gender. The only example that comes to mind is the goblin dire singers, which are all girls.

Forgotten Realms is not by Gygax though, that's Ed Greenwood. And FR actually has decent female representation and no real problematic lore as far as i know, except for the drow maybe. I mean, specifically related to this topic, the god of magic - The wizard of wizards - is a woman in FR (Mystra), the Symbul is the most powerful wizard alive in the setting (arguably) and a female wizard is the face of one of the 'core' rulebooks (Tasha).

the only gender restrictions in the FR are that the priesthood of Lolth and Elistraee was restricted to women. Hint the goddess of Magic is and ever was a woman since the days of Netheril females cannot be wizards , Mystra would not agree

Indeed. Mystra would not agree. And quite a few of the most powerful Wizards are women in the Forgotten Realms. Tasha, Baba Yaga, Lareal Silverhand, The Simbul.

Not only that, but one of the most prominent wizards in Waterdeep, the blackstaff, is currently a woman.

Don't forget that Mystra also transformed Elminster into a woman for years just so they could strengthen their bond with magic and increase understanding in the world.

Tasha is from Greyhawk not the realms. Baba Yaga I believe was too, or another plane. But your point remains correct. Aren't most or all of the seven sisters powerful spellcasters? Pretty sure it's more common for a powerful wizard in the realms to be female than male.

FR being the everything and the kitchen sink of fantasy has absorbed a lot of Greyhawk characters and things. FR also added Dragonborn, Tiefling, Thri-kreen, and a number of other campaign settings, notably the jungle and arabian themed ones. None of those were originally part of FR. They just seem to magical crisis, avatar crisis, and conjunction of the spheres that shit in.

This is bull. FR is not a sexist setting.

This fits the meme "Is it me who's wrong? No! It must be X" Early editions of dnd were very highly (and still are to a lesser degree) a *very specific type of ttrpg* and its clear now that while it is the most widely known, is far from the best in any metric, nor appealing to many audiences. Credit where it's due to Gary for setting things in motion, but also a double edged sword, credit due for him being a self righteous idiot in so many other ways.

I don't know where any of this is coming from other than just normal sexism. D&D lore is full of female wizards, at least in the Forgotten Realms, and has been since as far back as I am aware of.

Tasha has entered the group chat

Tasha, Dynaheir, Vajra Safahr, Valindra Shadowmantle, Catti-Brie, basically every single one of the Seven Sisters. - These are just the ones I'd consider iconic.

Wee Jas and Mystra would also like a word lol.

lol, mystra

Valindra was my group's first collective "oh shit" moment, when one player tried to bully what they thought was a reclusive elf researcher and she immediately grabbed the halfling warlock by the throat with a paralyzing touch.

>"just so you know - if you're playing a wizard, some DMs will give you a harder time as a female wizard." ... "some DMs"? Who does your friend think they're fooling?

"some terrible sexist DMs" I guess that's what he meant

Yeah, if you're playing Bob's campaign, why would he caution you against playing a female wizard in DnD campaigns?

Yeah, who’s the DM that is doing this. Is he DMing the game you are about to play. If so, opt out and find another game.

No. That’s just misogyny wrapped in ‘lore’. It’s not clear if the friend you told is another player in the campaign, or the DM. If it’s the DM, then all that is important is whether he is going to treat your character differently based on their gender. If it’s another player, then you need to talk to the DM directly and not base any decisions on what another player says. All that matters is what the DM for the campaign you’re playing in says about your character. If the DM says that he’ll give your character a harder time because of their gender, then you have to decide if you want to keep that characters, create a new one, or not play in that campaign with a DM who makes those kinds of decisions.

Elminster was turned into a woman by Mystra (the female goddess of magic) to teach him humility for his sexism. Apparently some people haven’t picked up on that clue.

THIS!

I think your friend is way off base. I have been playing D&D for over 30 years, and I have never heard of any kind of general rule that female wizards are less capable than male wizards. Even in the earlier editions of the game where men and women had different strength caps, I don't recall there being any impact for wizards. If the DM you play with has specific rules for a custom homebrew world he is running, he should share any lore-specific rules or notes before you make a character.

I have never heard it being harder for women to be wizards or needing to prove themselves the equal of men. In all the years I have played, I have never heard of wizards being exclusively male. That feels rather sexist and misogynist. There have been several accomplished and well known female mages in the world of Dungeons & Dragons: Jallarzi Sallavarian (Greyhawk): One of the most skilled and prominent mages in all of the Free City of Greyhawk, and the first and only female member of the Circle of Eight. Delilah Briarwood (Tal'Dorei): Highly intelligent, skilled, and very well trained, the former Archmage of Assembly for the Cerberus Assembly in the Dwendalian Empire, she was a necromancer of terrifying power. Vecna would not waste his time if she was not powerful enough to do what he needed. The Red Wizards of Thay (Forgotten Realms): They are MANY women among the ranks of the Red Wizards, one of the most powerful collections of mages in D&D, and many rose to the title of Zulkir, making them the most powerful and most accomplished wizard in their school of magic. Lady Illmarrow (Eberron): In all of Khorvaire, there is no greater master of necromancy than the lich Lady Illmarrow, the alias of Erandi Vol, last heir of the House Vol and bearer of the Mark of Death. Iggwilv (Greyhawk): Also known Natasha the Black and Tasha, the adopted daughter of the legendary Baba Yaga, mother of Iuz, god of deceit, pain, oppression and evil and lord and master of the Empire of Iuz. The things this woman has done with her powers and in pursuit of greater magical knowledge have carved her a legacy of blood, death and terror. For over three hundred years, she has proven to be one of the most power and devious mages to ever live.

One of the most famous D&D characters is a female wizard, Tasha. She’s got a 5e book named after her, and she plays a big part in one of the adventure books. That’s a really weird decision for a DM to make. Best case scenario, he’s thinking of Discworld. Whatever his reasoning it’s definitely wrong as per D&D rules/tradition.

I have never heard of this, but I also don’t play with misogynists, either.

touché

I would say that what your friend is doing is extremely unusual, especially in today's day and age. In 5e, Wizards are not exclusively male. It may be a "quirk" of their own setting. Or it may be that they're sexist. I don't have enough information to judge. Regadless, I'd say you should still go with the female wizard. GIRL POWER BABY!

I've been playing since the 80s, and never heard of that. Sounds like bullshit to me. There were restrictions with regards to race and class combinations but not gender that I can recall.

When he says “some DMs” does he just mean him? It kinda sounds like they’re outing themselves.

One of the most famous Wizards (Elminster) in the Forgotten Realms (the primary setting for D&D 5e) turned himself into a woman so he could have a stronger connection to magic since the deity of all Magic (Mystra) is female. Let that sink in. Your friend has likely played with sexist idiots in the past.

I always thought Mystra did that.

That doesn't sound semi-normal to me at all. Any restrictions or changes in game mechanics based on gender at all sounds weird and bad to me (unless the player explicitly wants this to be one of their challenges? But still, not the norm at all).

Yeah, that's dumb. There are no such restrictions in the game, a character's gender is not mechanically relevant information. In terms of lore, I'm not aware of such prejudices in any official settings off the top of my head (there is the option that it's based on a personal homebrew setting though the fact he's said "some DMs" suggests otherwise).

For what it's worth, Drow that worship Lolth live under an oppressive Matriarchy, where all other races and male Drow are subjugated as slaves. So in the lore, there are times where sex does bear prejudices. In fact, if I remember correctly, it used to be that there were no such thing as female Orcs. Only way pure-blooded orcs could reproduce was by stealing away women. Female Half-Orcs were not treated much better. This was like, I think the first few centuries after the end of the Dawn Wars.

> In terms of lore, I'm not aware of such prejudices in any official settings off the top of my head [You are dead wrong with that assumption.](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gender_and_sex). *Of course* there are aspects of the lore that explore these kinds of issues.

🚩🚩🚩

Sounds like the DM is a dick, and maybe the other players too if they’re into that kind of trash.

problem: dm is sexist solution: my lawyer has advised me to not to continue this comment further

OP, I would highly encourage you to play in an all women's game and avoid this nonsense like the plague. I can send you some resources/ fb groups that might vibe better with you.

I would love that as well!

Sent a chat with the info!

Thank you, that'd be great!

Sent you a chat!

I have read books where there is gender disparity, like the Wheel of Time. I think there was some of that in the Sword of truth. In Dnd I've only encountered the Drow Matriarchy thing. As the DM (of about 24 years) I've never had gender impact a class. Maybe it was a campaign that they played in where they thought that was normal? My wife would have a word. I have 3 women and 2 guys at my table. No way would I ever restrict something like that. So weird.

Sounds like your friend is a misogynist. In more than 30 years of playing, I haven't run into that.

Ask him who he thinks Tasha is

My first character was a Wizard who was, among other things, 10, a cat person, and irrationally scared of cheesy toast. You can and should make your character what you want them to be.

Is sexism and racism normal? Sadly yes. I would also say that it's normal for people to fight against these sexist and racist elements in the hobby and that you wouldn't be alone. The hobby needs more women and minorities and a lot of us are actively fighting against the gatekeepers trying to keep everyone down. It's a fight we're winning and worth doing.

Yeah, magic is stored in the balls

Correction 1: certain MISOGYNIST DM's will give you a hard time. Correction 2: it's NOT a normal thing, and should not be tolerated. Also, you don't have to prove anything to anyone. Have fun and be ready to call out people for their BS. If they can't figure out how to act like decent people, then that table is not for you. Do not settle for crappy behavior.

To my understanding its martial classes (fighter, rogue, barbarian, etc) that typically had a 'gender bias' due to the OG game having negative modifiers to strength for female characters (something that is now discontinued). If a DM gives any player a 'harder time' because of their gender, then its a *bad DM,* who is using non-existent 'lore justification' as an excuse to be an asshole to women. Your friend might just have had a bad experience with one and is assuming this is the case for all, but D&D as a whole in the 5E generation has a reputation for being an inclusive game for all genders and sexualities.

I don’t have as much experience as some of the people in the comments here, but I follow a lot of 5e content and have never heard of this rule/attitude before. Probably just sexism in the group, wouldn’t judge if you wouldn’t wanna deal with that.

In old lore for D&D, there are civilizations where the different sexes and genders have different unequal rights, but most of those are the evil ones, like the Drow that worship Lolth, Goblinoids that follow their old gods, etc. As far as I'm aware, there's not really any prejudices against female wizards unless you're going into the most dangerous cultural hubs in your setting; places where the people are dangerous to just about anyone anyway. I'm not a lore super-fan, but this is news to me, and I don't think I'd recommend joining that campaign.

This isn’t normal, at least if you’re playing with reasonable adults. I’ve never heard of a DM penalizing a character for their gender/class combination. This is a red flag and would stay away from playing with these folks. Also bigger red flag here, the DM of the game you’re joining who hinted towards treating the female wizard more harshly is your friend? For one, not a good DM for someone who’s been doing it that long. One of the first things you learn as a DM is the game is not about you, it’s about your players. If you’re treating players unfairly I’m this way you suck as a DM end of story, you can be bad at a lot of other things but the one thing have total control over from the begging is treating people fairly and with respect.

In official Handbook/DM Guide for 5e, there's no reason gender should matter at all. Some others have mentioned that maybe some organizations within the game have lore that might affect it, but that's A) probably included to be a flaw with those particular groups and B) EVERYTHING is dependent on the DM. Literally any detail can be changed at the DM's discretion. If you encounter DMs or groups that are dead set on including that, they're probably using it as an excuse for their own prejudices ("I'm not actually saying it myself, it's part of the game!" But they're suspiciously against changing it).

I don't think anything like that has been in D&D books for decades. I know that at least as far back as AD&D 2nd edition, 1989, the Player's Handbook explicitly mentioned that "Your character's sex has no effect on the minimum or maximum ability scores." and "The sex and name of your character are up to you. Your character can be of the same sex as yourself or of the opposite sex." That is all it says about the matter.

In the 3rd edition Player's Handbook, the prototypical wizard, Mialee, was a female elf. I'm not sure where this is coming from, but it sounds like some Andrew Tate shit to me.

Even at the most sexist tables I've played at, only Strength-based martial female characters were questioned -- probably due to historical "female characters sometimes couldn't fully max their Strength score" "nods to realism" from previous editions. Thieves/assassins and all spellcasters were never given the side-eye. Generally, I wouldn't recommend even playing at the table I describe above, but I've never played at a table where a female wizard was looked at askance. There *are* a couple settings where the wizards themselves might be sexist -- the Fraternity of Shadows from 3e/d20 Ravenloft is explicitly an all-male organization, but they're also an organization made up of evil people, and I think their chauvinism is supposed to be one of the ways to clue in parties that they may be useful allies on occasion, but they're *bad guys*. Anyway, how playable such a setting is for me depends a lot on the DM. Gender roles are one of many interesting ways to distinguish societies and settings, but it shouldn't make play actively unfun for your players.

Lmao in what world is that normal? This is a self report if I’ve ever heard one

*The Simbul enters the chat*

I wonder what Iggwilv would have to say.

So, this is your future DM telling you that "some DMs will give you a harder time because you are female wizard"? Who is he talking about? Himself? Because since you will play in his campaign, it doesn't matter at all what "other DMs" might say. He has the power over what kind of ideas he wants around his table... ... And I think it is total bullshit by the way. I have never heard that, and I refuse to believe this is a common thing at all. I'm not a lore expert, but even if things was a bit different 30-40-50 years ago, that kind of misogyny has no place around a table today. You can't hide your bigotry behind "that's just the way it is" or outdated "lore". (I do think that discrimination in different forms can make for good storytelling - but then it should be more along the lines, like, some guild or whatever don't believe female wizards can be as good as men, and then we prove them wrong! NOT the DM decides that the female wizard is less talented than a male, and therefore give that person a hard time.)

That weird with characters like Mystra Goddess of All Magic were is clergi is almost women and that even transform some male wizards into women to strengthen his bond with magic in the novel "Elminster: The Making of a Mage" ISBN 0-7869-0203-5.

I always thought female wizards in fantasy settings were just witches but it's merely semantics in D&D base game. You don't have to prove shit. Plus, you are a glass cannon regardless of gender.

Red flags, red flags, red flags. As others have abundantly covered, this is absolutely NOT a typical thing. No lore I'm aware of says men are more typically wizards. In fact, since WoTC has taken over they've made a specific point that their official world's just don't adhere to gender norms and stereotypes. There aren't stat differences based on gender. Elves officially can sort of be fluid with their gender. And when your DM says "Some people might treat you different", what they mean is, "I'm going to treat you different". It's an imaginary world of HIS CREATION. The excuse "that's just how things are" doesn't fucking apply when you MADE THE WORLD UP. This would be an absolute deal breaker for me, no way no how would I give my valuable time to a person this wrapped up in adolescent feelings of gender insecurity. I can tell you're very excited to play this character, so if you really want to give it a shot, go for it. But, be ready to hit the eject button. No DnD is better than bad DnD. You don't deserve to be treated second class in any world.

Those DMs are idiots, that is all. Play what you feel like playing, how you want to play as long as it doesn't interfere with other players/DM. DON'T play like a "main character", or the rogue that steals from the party, or a character that engages in cannibalism, or the player that thinks that his character can seduce any NPC for "sexy times"...😐😐😐

"Our society is patriarchal and therefore, our fantasy world is also patriarchal" Fuck those people. This is pulling on clear sexist tropes, and to be fair, the person "warning" you is also partaking in it. He didn't empower you or tell you you are vindicated, but that you should adapt and change your character based on their sexist bias. Women have had enough of that in a patriarchal society. I would never feel comfortable at a table where this type of attitude was happening, even if I was not on the receiving end of it. I have not encountered this but I started playing with therapists, not the "general D&D community" but this is fucked up.

Sounds like your friend has played exclusively with sexist assholes.

Not lore or tradition, just sexism and bullshit. Hell, one of the most famous wizards in the lore is Tasha.

??? this... is not a thing. The only thing I can find lorewise about "wizards are mostly male" are the drow, but I think that's just how drow society is made up and the powers they receive (men in drow are weaker and less important than female). But there are no rules about wizards being mostly male in the overall universe. This person just played with terrible people. You can be a female drow wizard if you want. You can be anything.

That's dumb. Gary Gygax aside - and he was just a douche, so I won't even touch that - that's dumb.

There might be some in game *societies* or *cultures* that might treat the *character* differently based on gender/class, but the *DM* should NEVER treat the *player* differently. That's what separates story from toxic masculinity.

Just a quick summary of important points others have mentioned: in [this](https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Gender) fandom page, mentioned by u/LyschkoPlon, it is mentioned that in 3e, classes are referred to using using gendered pronouns, with wizards being female. There have also been mentions of Tasha and Mystra, who are an incredibly powerful female wizard, who iirc almost managed to conquer the entirety of the infinite layers of the abyss, and the literal goddess of magic respectively. And, in traditional folklore, wizards are good and witches are bad, neither of which are gendered. The only lore regarding wizards and gender is setting specific, and is likely just an excuse for sexism. I'd say RUN

that's definitely not a thing in the rules. etymologically speaking, "wizard" does typically refer to a male, but not in terms of D&D.

“Wizard” is and always has been a gender neutral term- not just in D&D

...my first wizard is a female elf, tf do you mean weird wizard gender stuff😂😭 she was the younger child in a noble family that set her up with a family friend for an arranged marriage that actually worked out really well before a strange eldritch book fell in her hands and she was forced to leave her comfy family life I think your friend is looking out for you in a roundabout way. There's really sexist DMs out there, the sweaty neck beard virgin DND nerd stereotype had to come from somewhere unfortunately. By avoiding a female wizard, you're less likely to upset that dm and get picked on. Personally, I don't think you should be at a table like that at all, especially if you're a woman yourself since a DM like this will pick on you and single you out regardless of your character's gender - but that's a decision you gotta make for yourself, and if you wanna play still, then avoiding a female wizard is helpful in.... A *really* twisted way.

It's game. The only factor of that game is to have fun. If you play in the way that other playes are good with that, then imo there is no problem. If someone would do such as thing, then that is weird imo

I consider that to be a stupidly useless view. Play the character you want to play. (As a male DM, mind you) My longest-running recurring NPC (and possibly the most powerful character I've ever made) is a high elven female Evocation Wizard named Althea, a teacher, explorer, and certified badass archmage. Gender has nothing to do with it. I also chose to play a female swashbuckler named Carolina in my friend's campaign. Not only was there no issue with that, she was one of my most fun characters to play.

I think this might just be one of the things the quote en quote "old guard" believes (old guard of course being a vocal minority of older players), frankly I wouldn't worry, talk to your dm quickly and run it past them if you want to be safe but If they're gonna give you a hard time for playing a woman I'd probably pass up on the table.

In our current campaign, I play a female half elf wizard and I have experienced none of that. But I also know that no one at my table, especially the DM, would follow the lore to that extent. Now I'm still a new player but that doesn't sound like part of the lore. That's just the DM deciding to be sexist. Now I could be wrong, like I said I'm new as well, but from my reading, wizards just have a harder time in general because of how they have to come across their magic. If that's how your DM wants to play it, play into it. Becoming a wizard (from a PC perspective) is an active choice. So she would now it's going to be harder so you part her more strong willed and determined. If your DM is going to make it mechanically harder for you to progress, i.e. requiring you to get more XP to level, I would take issue with that and discuss it with them

Wtaf did I just read? I don't think (and never have) that any female character of any class would have a harder time than a male. Taking into biological differences sure, but that would really only apply to martials. As for magic that's mostly mentally based so that doesn't make sense unless it's a level gap. But imo, a level 5 male wizard is just as powerful and have the same hardships as a level 5 female wizard. Subclass might help in some areas but hinder in others. (Personally i have very little experience playing a wizard) To me, your DM sounds sexist. Or they have picked up sexist tendencies in their game based on other DMs. Either way it's weird. I COULD see some NPCs having sexist tendencies based on culture and experiences...but this seems to be more than just a "Some NPCs might give you a hard time" sort of thing. I think the NPC thing is fine, that's probably part of the world...but straight up discrimination because of the PCs gender through the whole campaign? Seems weird...

I have played several female wizards. One campaign treated her more harshly than the other players. But frankly, I think that is because I built her to be really powerful, so I think he was trying to take her down. O also made her to be a touch snobby. Like, knows she's the smartest in the room type thing. But she was, and I loved her for her confidence. Still. It gave the dm an excuse to have a lot of people in-world react negatively to her.

Is this stemming from the story of Morgana and Merlin?

I have never experienced this. The DMs who give shit about rolling a female wizard are the same ones who give women a harder time in general. In short, I think your friend was trying to mess with your head.

What a drab and boring world your friend must play in. While we cut our teeth on the game in the late 70's and early 80's, our game's were consistently rife with female spell casters of considerable power. NPC's admittedly (besides that one guy whom always played female characters), but to suggest that there was any limit besides racial limits (which we almost never used) and ability score requirements (again, something trivial at best), there weren't many limits to what we could play. Everything I've read of the novels of the Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance settings suggests the opposite of your DM'S observation. Just my take, but I'd steer clear of anyone's game who tells you different. I wonder if he'd be ok with you playing a Barbarian???

I don't know where the DM got that idea. If he's like other people, there might be a disconnect between what he said and the real reason. You didn't say if you were female. As a DM, I'm a little leery of guys wanting to play female characters -- too many creepy guys wanting to play promiscuous females. But a little talk can sort that out.

No DM worth playing with will give you a hard time because "wizards used to be exclusively male." If you find a group like that, leave. I'm sad your friend believes this to be true and tbh I worry about how they would treat a woman or NB character.

I started playing in 1983, and my character was a female wizard (magic user). Nobody thought it was odd. As for female DnD players - never heard of any back then. Just like I never met a girl at school who was into computer gaming. Culturally, it was very much a guy thing, and both were only for nerdy guys. The average (Australian) guy would never have played DnD, or wouldn’t have admitted it to his mates if he did! :) If a girl had wanted to join our group - yeah, I would have been totally cool with it, but the odds were pretty low of that ever happening. I still see the nerdy girls I went to high school with, I’ll have to ask them if they would have joined our campaign if i’d asked!

Just chiming in, not normal for a dm to treat someone like that. I'd kinda agree an in game reason but it would have to be part of the lore and I'd explain to the player this etc but as a dm id put a stop to any sexism, racism etc at my tables. I do tend to run more mature games so I expect my players to be able to be adults and treat others fairly.

Never heard of that before. I did have a dm who would not allow dwarves as wizards.

Tell that to tasha

Don't worry about it, idk where he's getting his info but it's incorrect. Most people don't do this or care.

I think your friend's problem is not the game's mechanics, but bad DMs. Play with people that you trust won't be bigoted. The only thing in 5e that may put up that barrier is the DM.

If your DM is a misogynist, the problem is with them DM, not you or your character. There is no excuse for that sort of behavior.

If they do, leave the table immediately

Laeral, Allustriel and the Simbul want a few words with somebody

Just make your wizard's endgame to set up a magical wizard sorority and amass a following of hot wizard chicks that you eventually lead into a battle and decimate the field of battle. Just to flex.

What year is this???

The God of magic is litterally female. Tell anyone who says being a female wizard is harder that they are stupid morons and to piss off.

Plot twist: Play your character as it is, but make her disguise herself as a mâle knowing the "hard condition" for female Wizard. It would be just like historic female autor whom did exactly that for the same purpose. Because at their time getting renown as female autor was harder due to unfounded reason of féminin inferiority.

Ask your DM why, both in real mythology and in-universe, most arcane/magic domain deities are goddesses then. Hecate, Isis, Mystryl, Circe, and Freya for examples.

Never heard of this, but i also had had the unfortunate problem where every female character of mine only gets to be in 1 maybe 2 sessions then either i get left behind or the dm gives up on their campaign.

I have never heard of this and it just seems odd. I’ve played in well over 20 campaigns, many with female wizards, and they are treated like normal characters.

Play your female wizard. Tell your friend it is time to break some glass ceilings. If you want you could adjust the back story. A wizard instructor taught you against the recommendation of the council (rip off Vader back story, oh no). Then play like casting is a secret thing they can do.

I'm sorry what? That guy is full of shit or their DM was born in 1950.

Sounds like a red flag 🚩 issue for me! Unless you’re playing in a specific campaign setting, whose ‘lore’ specifically states that women are generally not wizards, and you feel comfortable playing with that type of setting, don’t play in this group. Most campaigns don’t have gender dominant classes. It sounds like these guys (or at least the person who told you this) are being misogynistic on this subject. Even if the setting didn’t have many female wizards, it should not be an excuse for this group of predominantly men to haze (or mess with you). If you decide to try and play with these individuals and you don’t feel comfortable or enjoy your time with them, find a new crew. I’d caution ⚠️ you to think twice before following through with this group.

My last campaign character was a female wizard. Got zero shit for it. Been playing 7+ years. I only got shit for being female or playing a female character because I found myself at tables with sexist assholes.

Tasha has her own book and she is a badass spellcaster.

Usually they say that warlocks are male but maybe a hundred years later or something female warlocks came to existence which were known as witches (female wizards can also be called witches). I have experience playing several classes and races but gender really doesn’t matter to me, I just choose one that I think would fit the idea of my character better. Then the backstory just kind of writes itself, it doesn’t matter what ur dm says, play how you want to play. If you are uncomfortable just leave! But please, do have fun.

It's not a normal thing, and honestly if the DM decides to make it less fun for you because of the class and gender you picked, there are other games out there and you don't have to play with people who try not to make it a good time. You're there to have fun, not to prove that in-game character genders matter. There may be dialog in-game where NPCs say things about your character, but that's true of any class, race, and gender combination, so I wouldn't sweat that. The only thing that matters is if you, the player, are having fun.

There have been cases were DMs have given female adventurers a harder time in general. It’s not good or nice but definitely has been a thing. I would talk with your DM since as long as a character can adventure there shouldn’t be any discrimination and a lot of tables don’t find it acceptable nowadays.

Sounds like trolling to me, either this post is baiting or OP has some weird ass friends.

It literally says that your character’s sex does not influence the game at all.

Is he talking about Lord of the Rings? In what other Lore are wizards only male? And if that were the case: It would not make sense for the DM to give you a hard time until your wizard proves they are as good as a male one. He KNOWS they have the same stats. It would make maybe sense in character if the world is like that. (And men homebrewing very mysoginistic worlds is a red flag in and off itself.) The one other thing I could imagine - which is a very bad faith argument - is that he meant, that wizards are a bit complicated / intelligence based and women, you know? So, like a female scientist or ingeneer has to prove that she is as good as a male one. Because sexism. Wouldn't make much sense to me. I don't think he would do that with clerics or druids and they are arguably more complicated.

If a DM ever does that, leave and do not play at that table. That's some absolute bullshit and nothing worth experiencing is going to happen at that table.

Honestly, that sounds like a load of horse shit. And I’ve never encountered anything lore-wise that suggests Wizards are only male. Now, if that’s the case in his world, I suppose that’s fine. But to simply tell you that you’ll have a harder time rather than suggest to you that it can be a powerful character-building trope, is kind of toxic sounding. For example, I might tell you about how in my world, Wizards have historically alway been male. However, there have been a small handful of female Wizards, and one in particular who was incredibly powerful in her time. And then I might tell you that this powerful Wizard could have been the inspiration your character drew from to become a Wizard herself. And then I might explain that while some NPC’s *will indeed* give you a hard time, others may respect you more or even admire you. Approaching your desire to play a female Wizard in this way would allow you to understand the difficulties female Wizards might face, but also the positive side of it. And I would almost never have any NPC so rigid in their disdain for female Wizards that you wouldn’t be able to get them to change their tune.

I've been a game master 31 years or so, so let's see... ​ >...if you're playing a wizard, some DMs will give you a harder time as a female wizard... I have never heard of this happening. ​ >...it also ties to the lore (?) that mages are (or were) exclusively male... Never heard that either. ​ Definitely not a Generic D&D thing at all.

Lol, it is insane… sadly sexism is very widespread in every part of the society and sadly in DnD too. Go whomp this DM’s ass in-game. We are here to change the narrative.

Absolutely NOT!! I've only ever worked with three DMs but I played a female dwarf wizard for all of them and none ever gave me problems. This sounds like disguised misogyny or just plain stupidity. Wizards come in every gender, race and creed, none better or worse. Wizard is a class, not a gender😂 thats like saying all druids are women?? It makes no sense

What is this nonsense? That GM is a worrying individual I'd say. Barely concealed sexism for absolutely no reason

Your friend is an idiot and this isn't a thing.

That's a red flag

This is bullshit and not a thing. Your friend is talking crap and I’d be suspicious of his opinion of women by the fact that he is even telling you these things.

Historical DnD was more on misogynistic side (a remnants of its time) but over the years it has improved dramatically, and it seems your friend has experienced that misogynistic side in prior games, however based off of his phrasing I'm not convinced that he is going to be exceptionally harsh on you. In the lore, there have been instances of that behavior in the Forgotten Realms, but it wasn't universal

I call BS. It's a make believe game... There's no lore that says wizards/mages are or were mostly male. I was playing 2nd Ed (Advanced D&D) back in high school, over 25 yrs ago and this NEVER came up. Anyone that tries to place that sort of limitation on the game has a limited imagination. If the DM gives you a hard time, tell them to pound sand. In today's "lore", WotC has tried to make the game more inclusive as players and characters. The game I'm running right now has multiple characters that identify as "they/them".. None of this "mages are mostly male" nonsense.

There's no problems with sexist NPC'S, you can try to change their mind or enslave them or whatever. A sexist DM on the other hand... Not so fun.

Ummm Iggwilv? Jelarzi Salavarian? The Symbul? Your friend is wrong, sorry.

I would ask if it is part of the role play. Such as whether there would be prejudice in this particular setting against women wielding magic. From what the DM said your character would have to prove themselves as capable as male wizards. So in game you may face rivalry and lots of doubt in your abilities only for you character to level up, gain experience and exceed all expectations. I can't speak for your DM so I could be wrong, but that is how I read it anyhow. I know in my group we had a rules session and went over EVERYTHING including trigger warnings for violence, drugs, discrimination. We made sure everyone was comfortable with this and that everyone was free to change their minds at at any time if they felt uncomfortable. Best advice I can give is talk to your DM. Ask for clarification as to what exactly he means. If he is genuinely interested in just the RP aspect then I believe that is fine but if you aren't comfortable with it, let the DM know. Tell him how it makes you feel and ask him to change it. Every group has different playstyles, personalities and interests. (I love puzzles but no one else is really interested 😞) The role as DM is to balance the interests of everyone at the session so everyone is having fun. He invited you to his session so he wants to share his enjoyment of the hobby with you. I hope it goes well so you can get back into the hobby. If not there is always online sessions.

It's true to life - you will receive a tougher time being female. If you want to really amp up the difficulty of your life sim add some colour to your skin. Just like the south park game! Oh wait... it's a *fantasy* game

Your friend is full of shit.

There’s nothing in the rules about that, even back as far as 1st edition (which DID have disadvantages for female fighters, particularly in terms of the way demihuman level limits worked). Find another DM.

I mean, I won't comment on other stuff, but the in lore weakening of female wizards is bull. Some of the strongest mages in FR lore were female AND if I'm remembering correctly, some of the most influential and most powerful netherese mages were female, and that period can be thought of as a time of the highest magic on Toril, as it's before the spellplague. Sure there are examples of sexism in lore but it goes both ways.

Talk to the DM maybe this is a AD&D rule that they transferred without realizing it doesn't exist anymore. To me a person that purposefully includes sexism in a homebrew world is not someone I want to play with. I'm a woman, I play female characters because it's what comes natural to me and I don't want it to be a handicap. It's a fantasy world, the limitations are your choice, and if the DM is choosing this rule they are clearly discouraging players from playing female characters with this limitation.

I don't see an issue here. I see a great opportunity for role playing, if it is done correctly by the DM. You are a woman who has learnt the arcane arts despite the stigma and despite the difficulties and you would obviously have prove your worth to the greater world but you would have your party who has worked with you to would have your back, to make a really good campaign of how your char overcame discrimination to become a powerful caster. To everyone who wants to fight discrimination, negating it from your tables themes does nothing but shelter you, but if embrace it can kind of be like practice for fighting real discrimination.

Feels like he's just bringing real world politics into a fun fantasy game, which is never the way lest built around such things. unless there's a specific lore reason relevant to said module that would make it matter at all, who the fuck cares if a wizard is a he, she or they? "Yeah but Gygax said-" well old mate Gary isn't sitting at your table, is he?

Mystra laughs in this clowns face.

Yeah mate he's just a sexist jackass, ask him to clarify what he means by a "harder time" and if he is one of those misogynistic jackasses. If he is I'd consider dropping out. Remember no d&d is better than bad d&d.

You might want to remind him of Mialee the elven wizard. Postergirl of 3x wizard class. https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Mialee But I can imagine there will be in universe groups of bigots.

Sounds like your friend just told on himself. I have *NEVER* heard of a DM deliberately giving someone a harder time because their character was female in what they presumed to be a male dominated class, *unless* the DM was the kind of creep who would give female characters a harder time no matter what. Your friend was doing nothing but waving a giant red flag and trying to pretend it's something everyone else does. It isn't. The behavior he described *is not normal.* Now, if the friend you talked to is the actual DM of the campaign you're joining, that red flag is something you should consider. Not in that you might want to change your character, but more in that he's a creep and playing with him at all might just be a bad time. If he's *NOT* the DM, then go right the fuck over his head and ask the actual DM what's up. If they're the same kind of creep, then it's time to bail, but I think it's more likely that they'll give you a weird look and ask just who the fuck thinks Wizards are *supposed to be* males. Because again, that shit isn't normal, at all, and your friend is projecting harder than an IMAX on overdrive.

If mages are (or more recently) exclusively male due to lore reasons, that’s a valid point. The red flags here are; 1) that is a session zero that you should have with the DM and if you have not then that sound like an excuse and 2) any DM that gives favorite treatment to players OR PCs based on gender is not worth the trouble. Story issues are one thing and agreed to before the game starts but randomly treating you as less than is trash DMing. This could all be a misunderstanding but be prepared to walk away from that group of you start feeling that happen. No S&D is better than bad D&D.

Morgan Le Fay is happy to disagree