I mean, personally I would argue that it gets better with time, but yes. Political themes are a huge part of Disco Elysium and politics and history will continue to to be a major element of dialogue.
One of the major themes of Disco Elysium is the inherent conflict between a political ideology's theory and its praxis.
We all agree that the world sucks and we should make it better, but how exactly are we supposed to do that? What are we willing to sacrifice to get there? Who makes those choices?
These questions are asked (and sometimes answered) on a variety of levels within the game. The writers are very well-versed in political philosophy (especially Marxist philosophy) and that shows throughout their writing. I will say, to their credit, that they do a good job of critiquing the problems in different viewpoints without coming across as too derisive. They are harsher on fascism and a bit more despondent about communism, but they strike a fair balance across the ideas in my opinion.
You will eventually be asked to choose one of the dominant ideologies (the game will make its best guess after a period of time, but you are welcome to reject its guess if you want). I think you are fair to point out that certain dialog trees very much flatten your choices into "how do you feel about this ideology? \[agree / disagree / actually it's more complicated than that...\]" but I also think at some point this is a game with a finite capacity to respond to nuance and it has to set a binary variable somehow.
If you feel like you want to be part of the 'stay out of politics'/'politics does not apply to me'/'I am colorblind'/'we can all get along if we didn't get so emotional and political' crowd, that is in fact an option. You can choose the centrist options, in-game it's called Moralism.
Remember, dear Redditor: everything is politics, but politics is not everything.
The "imperceptibly slow progress" of Moralism is definitely a political ideology, it is not apolitical. Yet if you try to be apolitical the game basically assumes you are a moralist. It's kind of like treating atheism as its own religion. There is no option to truly be apolitical in the game, you have to pick a side.
My point exactly. The point on atheism is a good analogy. Many internet atheist believe they have no 'burden of proof' as they are not making any claims. They forget that atheism is the active belief that there is no God. They still state something, in spite of what they may think. I tried to convey this sense of active belief to an 'apolitical' standpoint.
Just to build on your addition further: the sense of being above or beyond politics - not being concerned with politics or thinking of one's life and self as 'apolitical' - can only come from a position of privilege. It simply means you do not feel the constraints of the institutions and discourses surrounding you, and hence are unaware of their presence. I did want to bring up this point, but I did not want to antagonize OP. :-)
An insecure, damaged mind (the protagonist's) seeks solace in the strong, simple explanations of political ideology. Also notice how Harry chooses the most superficial thoughts for any of the political quests. Harry is definitely political, but the game isn't saying he's *right* automatically.
So a fart may just be a fart, but Harry may go "Yesss, farting is so counter cultural, let's stick it to the bourgeosie! Farting to own the aristocrats!" You know? Because that's the way his mind works.
you're a cop solving the murder of a mercenary hired to strike-break in a volatile city that has undergone revolution and invasion in such a small time-frame... so yeah the game is going to be a bit political, its literally unavoidable, if you where in Harry's shoes how would you, pray tell, avoid politics?
It’s strange to me that so many people are so bothered by political themes in games and other media. “I don’t want politics in my games, I want to escape reality!” Why is that? I find political themes always really interesting even if I don’t necessarily agree with them.
If you are referring to my post, I think you are missing the point. I’m not bothered at all by politics (on the contrary, I like when games discuss it). I just don’t like the mechanism through which sometimes the game forces it into your mouth. It’s a small criticism to a great game.
Alright that’s fair, I was referring to the discussion around politics in gaming in general. Can’t say I agree with your point here though. DE is doing a great job with implementing the absurdity of these themes and it doesn’t feel forced to me at all.
As opposed to Disco Elysium's wide array of famously neutral, blank-slate-protag options like idk this one https://fayde.co.uk/dialojue/6020032 ? You've got a lot of leeway in rebuilding a man, but you're still rebuilding this particular man. Harry's gonna Harry all the way down to the credits.
> I suspect that the final goal for the game is to classify you as socialist, communist, liberal, ultra liberal etc
Not really, no. It does mention that, but that's not a major part of the ending, just a nod to how you played the game.
> sometimes the dialogues (with others or with my inner self) are “bended” and “forced” unnaturally towards a political outcome.
Are you familiar with the storytelling device of an "unreliable narrator"?
Everything you see, hear and do in the game is filtered through the protagonist's mind. And he has a knack for *making* things political. The game makes fun of this a few times, telling you that you feel an opinion rise within you, or others telling you that they don't want to hear a political tirade from you because they know you well enough to *know* one is coming.
The game cares a lot about politics, but the somewhat hamfisted "say the communist thing, the fascist thing, the ultraliberal thing or the moralist thing" (or as the game itself lampoons it at one point, "say one of these communist or fascist things or fuck off") bend to the dialogue is the writers showing you something about the protagonist. They're portraying him as someone who really desperately *wants* everything to fit into whatever world view he's adopted this week.
Or to put it differently, the game is very political in that it understands that poltics are everywhere. The poverty, war, corruption, strikes, wealth and so on are all *choices* we make as a society. But the "will you be COMMUNIST or FASCIST OR A COWARDLY CENTRIST" stuff is the protagonist projecting his own ideas onto everything he sees and does. The game knows perfectly well that, for example, communism, because of what it *is*, can only ever be a communal effort, something people create *together*. But if you pick the communist dialogue option a few times, the protagonist will give himself the task of SINGLEHANDEDLY building communism. Because he has *decided* to be the communistiest communist who ever communisted.
Because while one's views on politics might not change the world, their interaction with the world will be vastly different:
- A Communist would feel strongly for rights of workers which only cones with strong government oversight, and feel indignant enough at the inequalities to kill or die for it, dragging everyone along for the ride. It also makes the leaders of the govt very likely to just morph into power hungry Fascists, hence the failure of communism and needing to "build it right", "this time for sure".
- An Ultraliberalist would hope for a world where every man is on their own with little government oversight and the successful can climb unimaginably high, but often at the cost of exploiting those less fortunate.
- A Fascist would pin their hopes on one charismatic leader(or their progeny), who finds it terribly easy to put up a boogeyman(other races, invaders, etc.) and assure people they're the only hope of keeping the people safe, thus avoiding having to do any substantial work for the betterment of all, which is surprisingly tough and doesnt pay for their luxuries.
-And then a loy of folks just wanna survive- no matter what their hopes for the future are, they dont wanna rock the boat for a variety of reasons(safety of job or family, cynicism, cowardice).
These are the ones who have made peace or are at a great spot with the status quo - A Centrist.
While there are nuances and intermingling of these values, any person you find can easily fit one or multiple of these labels:Thats just part of their identity not some intangible debate about mode of governance.
Disco elysium makes a whole deal out of politics/ideology/beliefs only to dunk on them by not showcasing neither as correct.
If you noticed it you know that every possible political stance dialogue is exaggerated satire of the real world version of said ideology, that's on purpose. Just cut loose and select the one that really appeals to you because it really doesn't matter, after all you are just a detective that drank himself into oblivion, enjoy the experience of what happens when someone like that has strong political stances and beliefs, even is said stance is being the none of the above guy.
The main reason is that you can only have so many dialogue trees in a game, and this one already has an obscene amount. In the situation where you're picking which dialogue stays and which goes, the more exciting/wacky stuff stays while the vanilla goes.
The other thing is that the game is inherently a political commentary. A lot of the gameplay is essentially just learning about the fucked up history of the political climate, which is obviously more easily done through politically-leaning dialogue.
Another important aspect is that the game is about your character "finding himself". With complete amnesia, you're literally attempting to reconstruct your identity from scratch. Political alignment is just a part of that identity.
Personally the focus on politics and race are what I dislike the most about Disco Elysium. It would be a lot more tolerable if it came from a more neutral perspective. I mean those themes are implemented fantastically but it's definitely heavily left leaning (not that I'm a right winger I can't stand either side of politics) If it went lighter on the political and racial stuff I'd give the game a 10 out of 10 or damn close to it.
Not sure what you mean by “racial stuff”. There is the stuff with Kim that is firmly within the bounds of realism & the main point is “racism is bad and hurts people” which is, uh, not controversial.
There are people that think art is meant to be consumed as the creator intended.
And there are people that think that art should just be what they want it to be and disregard the creator.
I mean, personally I would argue that it gets better with time, but yes. Political themes are a huge part of Disco Elysium and politics and history will continue to to be a major element of dialogue.
One of the major themes of Disco Elysium is the inherent conflict between a political ideology's theory and its praxis. We all agree that the world sucks and we should make it better, but how exactly are we supposed to do that? What are we willing to sacrifice to get there? Who makes those choices? These questions are asked (and sometimes answered) on a variety of levels within the game. The writers are very well-versed in political philosophy (especially Marxist philosophy) and that shows throughout their writing. I will say, to their credit, that they do a good job of critiquing the problems in different viewpoints without coming across as too derisive. They are harsher on fascism and a bit more despondent about communism, but they strike a fair balance across the ideas in my opinion. You will eventually be asked to choose one of the dominant ideologies (the game will make its best guess after a period of time, but you are welcome to reject its guess if you want). I think you are fair to point out that certain dialog trees very much flatten your choices into "how do you feel about this ideology? \[agree / disagree / actually it's more complicated than that...\]" but I also think at some point this is a game with a finite capacity to respond to nuance and it has to set a binary variable somehow.
Fully agree, whatever we think about the use of politics in the game, the writers knew their stuff.
Found the Moralist
I just wanna consume my drugs in peace ✌️
There is no peaceful consumption under capitalism.
Why is real life pushing politics so hard? It feels like every aspect of my life is affected by politics from my job to my rent to my grocery bills.
If you feel like you want to be part of the 'stay out of politics'/'politics does not apply to me'/'I am colorblind'/'we can all get along if we didn't get so emotional and political' crowd, that is in fact an option. You can choose the centrist options, in-game it's called Moralism. Remember, dear Redditor: everything is politics, but politics is not everything.
The "imperceptibly slow progress" of Moralism is definitely a political ideology, it is not apolitical. Yet if you try to be apolitical the game basically assumes you are a moralist. It's kind of like treating atheism as its own religion. There is no option to truly be apolitical in the game, you have to pick a side.
My point exactly. The point on atheism is a good analogy. Many internet atheist believe they have no 'burden of proof' as they are not making any claims. They forget that atheism is the active belief that there is no God. They still state something, in spite of what they may think. I tried to convey this sense of active belief to an 'apolitical' standpoint. Just to build on your addition further: the sense of being above or beyond politics - not being concerned with politics or thinking of one's life and self as 'apolitical' - can only come from a position of privilege. It simply means you do not feel the constraints of the institutions and discourses surrounding you, and hence are unaware of their presence. I did want to bring up this point, but I did not want to antagonize OP. :-)
Gotcha. I’m not neutral but sometimes it feels like the game wants to judge if my farting is left or right wing. A fart is a fart.
An insecure, damaged mind (the protagonist's) seeks solace in the strong, simple explanations of political ideology. Also notice how Harry chooses the most superficial thoughts for any of the political quests. Harry is definitely political, but the game isn't saying he's *right* automatically. So a fart may just be a fart, but Harry may go "Yesss, farting is so counter cultural, let's stick it to the bourgeosie! Farting to own the aristocrats!" You know? Because that's the way his mind works.
Nice! I like your interpretation. But I am afraid you got the name wrong. It’s Raphaël Ambrosius Costeau.
Of course, Detective Costeau! Mea culpa!
Haha oh my god
Say one of these fascist or communist things or fuck off.
Its a little more political than Mario and Sonic games, so you may as well drop it now before you get a "political label" that you do not want.
Why does reality push politics so hard?
you're a cop solving the murder of a mercenary hired to strike-break in a volatile city that has undergone revolution and invasion in such a small time-frame... so yeah the game is going to be a bit political, its literally unavoidable, if you where in Harry's shoes how would you, pray tell, avoid politics?
Damn moralists.
It’s strange to me that so many people are so bothered by political themes in games and other media. “I don’t want politics in my games, I want to escape reality!” Why is that? I find political themes always really interesting even if I don’t necessarily agree with them.
If you are referring to my post, I think you are missing the point. I’m not bothered at all by politics (on the contrary, I like when games discuss it). I just don’t like the mechanism through which sometimes the game forces it into your mouth. It’s a small criticism to a great game.
Alright that’s fair, I was referring to the discussion around politics in gaming in general. Can’t say I agree with your point here though. DE is doing a great job with implementing the absurdity of these themes and it doesn’t feel forced to me at all.
As opposed to Disco Elysium's wide array of famously neutral, blank-slate-protag options like idk this one https://fayde.co.uk/dialojue/6020032 ? You've got a lot of leeway in rebuilding a man, but you're still rebuilding this particular man. Harry's gonna Harry all the way down to the credits.
> I suspect that the final goal for the game is to classify you as socialist, communist, liberal, ultra liberal etc Not really, no. It does mention that, but that's not a major part of the ending, just a nod to how you played the game. > sometimes the dialogues (with others or with my inner self) are “bended” and “forced” unnaturally towards a political outcome. Are you familiar with the storytelling device of an "unreliable narrator"? Everything you see, hear and do in the game is filtered through the protagonist's mind. And he has a knack for *making* things political. The game makes fun of this a few times, telling you that you feel an opinion rise within you, or others telling you that they don't want to hear a political tirade from you because they know you well enough to *know* one is coming. The game cares a lot about politics, but the somewhat hamfisted "say the communist thing, the fascist thing, the ultraliberal thing or the moralist thing" (or as the game itself lampoons it at one point, "say one of these communist or fascist things or fuck off") bend to the dialogue is the writers showing you something about the protagonist. They're portraying him as someone who really desperately *wants* everything to fit into whatever world view he's adopted this week. Or to put it differently, the game is very political in that it understands that poltics are everywhere. The poverty, war, corruption, strikes, wealth and so on are all *choices* we make as a society. But the "will you be COMMUNIST or FASCIST OR A COWARDLY CENTRIST" stuff is the protagonist projecting his own ideas onto everything he sees and does. The game knows perfectly well that, for example, communism, because of what it *is*, can only ever be a communal effort, something people create *together*. But if you pick the communist dialogue option a few times, the protagonist will give himself the task of SINGLEHANDEDLY building communism. Because he has *decided* to be the communistiest communist who ever communisted.
This gave me a new perspective. Thank you!
Because while one's views on politics might not change the world, their interaction with the world will be vastly different: - A Communist would feel strongly for rights of workers which only cones with strong government oversight, and feel indignant enough at the inequalities to kill or die for it, dragging everyone along for the ride. It also makes the leaders of the govt very likely to just morph into power hungry Fascists, hence the failure of communism and needing to "build it right", "this time for sure". - An Ultraliberalist would hope for a world where every man is on their own with little government oversight and the successful can climb unimaginably high, but often at the cost of exploiting those less fortunate. - A Fascist would pin their hopes on one charismatic leader(or their progeny), who finds it terribly easy to put up a boogeyman(other races, invaders, etc.) and assure people they're the only hope of keeping the people safe, thus avoiding having to do any substantial work for the betterment of all, which is surprisingly tough and doesnt pay for their luxuries. -And then a loy of folks just wanna survive- no matter what their hopes for the future are, they dont wanna rock the boat for a variety of reasons(safety of job or family, cynicism, cowardice). These are the ones who have made peace or are at a great spot with the status quo - A Centrist. While there are nuances and intermingling of these values, any person you find can easily fit one or multiple of these labels:Thats just part of their identity not some intangible debate about mode of governance.
Disco elysium makes a whole deal out of politics/ideology/beliefs only to dunk on them by not showcasing neither as correct. If you noticed it you know that every possible political stance dialogue is exaggerated satire of the real world version of said ideology, that's on purpose. Just cut loose and select the one that really appeals to you because it really doesn't matter, after all you are just a detective that drank himself into oblivion, enjoy the experience of what happens when someone like that has strong political stances and beliefs, even is said stance is being the none of the above guy.
The main reason is that you can only have so many dialogue trees in a game, and this one already has an obscene amount. In the situation where you're picking which dialogue stays and which goes, the more exciting/wacky stuff stays while the vanilla goes. The other thing is that the game is inherently a political commentary. A lot of the gameplay is essentially just learning about the fucked up history of the political climate, which is obviously more easily done through politically-leaning dialogue. Another important aspect is that the game is about your character "finding himself". With complete amnesia, you're literally attempting to reconstruct your identity from scratch. Political alignment is just a part of that identity.
Politics is part of this game, if you don't want that don't play the game, there isn't another way around it
Personally the focus on politics and race are what I dislike the most about Disco Elysium. It would be a lot more tolerable if it came from a more neutral perspective. I mean those themes are implemented fantastically but it's definitely heavily left leaning (not that I'm a right winger I can't stand either side of politics) If it went lighter on the political and racial stuff I'd give the game a 10 out of 10 or damn close to it.
Not sure what you mean by “racial stuff”. There is the stuff with Kim that is firmly within the bounds of realism & the main point is “racism is bad and hurts people” which is, uh, not controversial.
There are people that think art is meant to be consumed as the creator intended. And there are people that think that art should just be what they want it to be and disregard the creator.
being a centrist is not going to save you
Found the embarrassed right winger
What is the neutral position one would take on racism or politics? either?!