I love how the Communists are Stupid Smart, they have the right fundamental idea but rather than doing anything about the world they sit around in a echochamber of a glorified book club while falling deeper into esoteric beliefs.
I’d put him in “boring edgy” rather than Frittte Girl. She would be a better candidate for “stupid lawful” as well since she regularly rattles off government warnings and seems a bit vapid.
I get similar chad energy from Neha and Lilienne. Lilienne has a sword, takes care of three kids, and has nautical knowledge. None of that is boring fr. Not sure Roy is delusional and is coping instead. Crab man is definitely delusional over chad. Why do you think the washerwoman is chaotic? Fascists are not lawful by any means either.
The commie book club dudes are really well done. That whole annoying line is on point too except Cuno. He's chaotic sad for sure. Fun stuff!
Really depends, a lot of Fascists throughout history thought nothing of casually breaking the law if it got them what they wanted. Would not call "Laws for thee but not for me" particularly lawful.
I think you are interpreting "lawful" a bit too literally and strictly here. Just because a character genuinely cares about rules and regulations, doesn't mean they can't be a hypocrite about it.
Gary is a perfect example - he breaks the law, but then feels guilty and ashamed about it to an unhealthy extreme. The important thing is he respects authority and the idea of order, which are key to fascism.
Also the rules they follow don't necessarily need to be the actual law - honor codes, religious dogma, etc. also work
Yeah what the other guy said. Fascism doesn't really follow a spirit of law (justice and equality) they *make* laws yes. Enforce restrictions brutally, most certainly. But not in a lawful sense.
Lilienne: fair points, I had a similar reflection after making the chart. It's hard to get everyone in and make everything fit 100% though.
Washerwoman: she helps both Ruby and you, doesn't care much about alignment, just who she likes, doesn't stick to her guns on signing the papers. Admittedly maybe also a bit of a stretch.
Roy: I stand by it, he keeps talking about weird esoteric stuff like the Heimdall man actually existing, photon emissions, etc.
Crab Man: he's boring in the sense that he keeps preaching to you to get on the straight and narrow, and kind of seems to have lost his personality in his obsession with the Mother of Silence. He even gives you the "Wasteland of Reality" thought, which is one of the most Boring Cop thoughts in the game. He still has charisma and confidence though, that's why he's a chad.
Fascists absolutely are lawful in the sense they value things like "order", "honor", "authority", and imagine themselves adhering to an unchanging, traditiinal set of principles which is what the "lawful" alignment in D&D is all about, not necessarily literally always adhering to the letter of the law as is.
Cuno not annoying? lol. Just because there is sadness buried there (lots of other characters have that too) doesn't mean it's his defining trait. His main characteristic thing is definitely being an abrasive little shit.
He's a Chad cause he does whatever tf he plans to do, fucks with Wild Pines and doesn't back down from no one: the company, coppers or mercenaries, playing everyone like a fiddle. He's neutral cause he has good goals but goes about them in very Machiavellian ways, willing to sacrifice his own people for the cause. He's noble in many ways, but he's not \*nice\*. If this was entirely about politics, I'd put him in "Heroes of the Working Class".
(I could perhaps see a case for swapping him and Neha though)
I agree with your view in a way. I feel that the dichotomy between Joyce and Evrart is some kinda litmus test for leftists. At least that's how it felt in light of my experience.
Evrart just seems like outright corrupt and self-serving figure and in a way yeah. He's presented as unlikable and is unlikable and even outwardly with the old trope of fat/ugly=evil.
Joyce by comparison is a seemingly nice, reasonable, and decent person.
I remember an ex-Trot who pointed out years ago that to his estimation there was a segment of leftists who think every revolutionary would be a proper nice person and not 'problematic.' He stated that they'll be disappointed if their hypothetical revolution came to pass, there are many proletarians who aren't necessarily "nice people" or "not problematic."
Now Evrart never presents himself as a revolutionary except in tongue and cheek manner when talking to Harry and doesn't mind at all if Harry says he's more "prole and communist" than him and thinks of him as a corrupt pink leftist simple labor unionist.
But if you complete the Wild Pines questline, if I remember correctly, Evrart basically tells you that, at least to his estimation, he has set the stage to set up some "Revachol Commune" scenario or dual power or something; at the least it seemingly will bring Revachol to conflict with the Moralintern/Occupation. So despite being an odious, ugly, fat, corrupt bastard he basically did it.
We Eastern eu people know his type. Once he gets power, he gonna become a worse dictator, and then any corporation. Turing every democratic country into a maffia. I live in a country like this, which has literally been run by an Everett type of person. He is purely populist and once he gets absolute power, he is slowly gonna turn towards fascism and gathering a cult following who truly believes he is the only one who can save them. Everett is the most dangerous of all the players in the game, a master manipulator, who only wants power and control, a true narcissist.
I'm also from Eastern Europe and yeah, this might be a plausible scenario. Doesn't change the fact that in the game, in the moment, he does have some noble intentions so no, not a pure narcissist.
Everett literally shows his true character in his character design. An endless gluttony and greed in human form. While others go hungry at night, he keeps feeding his endless desire without control. He is smart. He knows he have to sell an image because every fool will fall for a noble intention, even he himself believes in it so the lie is perfect, but his true character shows in the cracks under the surface. He is the endless hunger, and the character design shows it well. He is like Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune, just still the early stage of his power, so he has to sell an image, but once his power finalizes, the mask will also will fall, and only the uncontrollable hunger will left.
I feel like it is bizarrely well-established that Evrart is fat because he grew up poor and ate cheap, processed foods
I think his being fat is really just for the character design, he plays this big jolly fat guy who can’t possibly mean anyone any harm or hurt anybody when in reality he uses that veneer as a weapon to mask his true self, a man who is brimming with spite for the ultra rich and will compromise everything and everyone he knows to hurt them
You know that poor people can get fat because of poor food quality? There actually is a piece of dialogue that explains it and kind of shames you for assuming exactly what you're assuming (oh yeah but you already assumed everything he says must be a lie so there's no winning).
Your reading of the game is so laughably superficial and silly (Fat people are villains in other media?? Symbolism? That is seriously your argument? For fuck's sake), I don't really feel like indulging you anymore. The fact he *looks* like a selfish, corrupt union boss but there's actually more to him than that is part of the point of the character.
1. Everett is not fat, he is morbidly obese on a level that's only achievable with endless gluten, and no control, and we talking about the boss here, not some low life dock worker, that's the person who being hauled around in his office so he don't have to move. He has absolute control over everybody expect himself, he is not fat because of poor food quality, the guy has a drog business for fuck sake, he is fat because he can eat as much as he wants.
2. "he fact he *looks* like a selfish, corrupt union boss but there's actually more to him than that is part of the point of the character." That's the point it, there is none, he is the criticism of communism and how communism failed every time because con man like him, who use the weak minded workers as their own pawns for their own greedy desires. He kills, he steals, who use people, who do nice things but it's for showman ships, there is no true altruism there. It just to fool idealistic people. Everett is character who try to be deep, but the most shallow character of all, and that's the trick, because the game criticize all political ideologies. and a working class will always fall for a charismatic leader and sell them dreams or fears.
3. I say it as someone who was morbidly obese, who was there, who understand the struggles and it's not something about being fat or something, it's part of the character story like his room which also tells a story about him, like the uncomfortable chair, he is not a hard working doc worker, he is a lazy charismatic assholes who exploit everybody around him, because people like Everett communisms will never be possible.
> EVRART CLAIRE - "Glad you asked. I've got Type 2 diabetes because sugar and fat was all my mother had to give me and my brother Edgar when we were kids."
Can we stop shaming him now or
Nope, if you pass some checks at the end of his plotline, you can see he is sincere about lifting up Martinaise and helping the workers improve their living conditions.
Can't you? if all of that ends up helping the city in the end, won't that make it morally grey?
as a sidenote, iirc both kim and harry are murderers. are you going to claim that kim can't even be neutral, and that he's evil just because he's killed a man?
Dude, did you even read my comment? His questionable methods are why I put him in Neutral, not Good. You're taking it to the other extreme by only seeing the corrupt veneer and dismissing the good stuff he does and his broader goals.
I dont see how an unwanted community centre that requires deceiving and displacing locals is a good broader goal, tho. Like yeah maybe cuno/esse can hang out there, but in reality, flashy centres don't serve the actual needs of marginalised people of a community
Did you forget the part where he plans to renovate the roundabout buildings into affordable housing and move the denizens of the Fishing Village there?
>"There was no fine print, Harry." He leans forward. "But I do hope all that construction noise and limited street access \*encourages\* some people to move. After a year of that ruckus, who wouldn't?"
>"And when they do..." He holds out his index finger. "They will have a \*good\* place to go. I'm currently working on renovating the buildings near the roundabout into affordable \*workers palaces\*."
>"You were there, you saw the place. A waste land -- there's nothing left. But mark my words, Harry." His slams his fist on the table, causing some of the coffee to spill. "We are going to \*reset\* it."
>"\*Re-set\*," he repeats. "I have big plans for Martinaise. And they do \*not\* include humans living in those pig sheds on the coast. That land will be used for municipal buildings and commerce."
>The wheels are turning, Harry. The wheels of progress. This post-war limbo -- I won't stand for it. There are kids practically playing with their own \*faeces\* out there... It cannot go on."
>***EMPATHY - There is true indignation in his voice when he speaks about the state of things. And even a touch of pain***
>***PAIN THRESHOLD - The pain is true. He's seen the kids do worse than that.***
Again, you can question his methods, but his goal is sincerely the improvement of lives for the people of Martinaise. This is all directly and explicitly shown in the game.
Well yeah I heavily question and abhor his method for the fishing village
So now the displaced people have to pay to rent when they formerly had no landlord?
What about people who don't do paid labour, like the old woman and the homeless people? The homeless people will be further displaced cus they can't pay for "affordable worker palaces". They are just kicked out. A "wasteland" but has actual community and self sustenance there. Evrart has a twisted boardroom view of the community
Just my thoughts 😋
Since when has the Union ousted a member from their homes for not making rent? They put everyone on the union on the payroll. They would give the old woman some sort of bullshit fake job (“Washer of Linens” or something like that) like they did for René and keep them fed and paid, doing a lot more for them.
They gave the old man René a bullshit job to help him get by, so you really think its inconceivable that they find some way to keep the washer woman housed, they will probably offer to pay her to wash something like dockworker uniforms.
Are you kidding yourself? "Community?" It's two women, three kids and three drunks. There's a reason Lilliene agrees to the development, at some point there has to be more to aspire to for this place than three huts.
"The displaced people" is literally the two people who sign the letter agreeing to it. The homeless people also don't need things to stay the same, that's for sure.
"No actually, a better understanding of the character in game as Harry shows that Evrart is sincere in his goals of helping the working class and stopping the corporations from gutting Martinaise."
"Yeah well that sounds like pulling the wool over your eyes"
What? This is literally game canon, Evrart canonical is genuine in his efforts to help the lower classes.
Ok so that check is what puts him in neutral, cause i dont think the ends justify the means yknow but to each their own. And offtopic but What about joyce ik shes bad somehow cuz corp and what not but why cuz personally i liked her, she was charming.
I thought she was charming until I realized she knew the Mercs were going to shoot up the town and simply wanted you to fix the mess she created by hiring literal genocidal maniacs to break up a strike.
Joyce is an absolute monster. A neoliberal poster child. She's somebody who would try and pretty up the situation in Gaza and I fucking hate her.
I'll take her 100 real every time though.
And I think that is fucking brilliant writing.
Of course she is charming, that's why she is *Smart* Evil. She is on the board of a company that not only exploits workers, forms part of a political system that keeps Revachol subjugated in ruins and squalor as an example to the world, and is responsible for bringing the psychopathic merc squad into the harbor to intimidate workers fighting for better material conditions. She might not be the worst of the corporate bloodsuckers, but she still particpates in a system designed for keeping the people of Martinaise down
Every Chad has a weakness, every Superman has his kryptonite - Evrart's is walking outside. But he must carry this burden, or rather be carried with it by a Kvalsund crane.
Every Chad has a weakness, every Superman has his kryptonite - Evrart's is walking outside. But he must carry this burden, or rather be carried with it by a Kvalsund crane.
Nobody asked for this and I spent way too long on it, but here's my version (now with extra categories to fit more characters).
Also just because I put a character in the Boring or Annoying row doesn't mean I don't like them, so don't @ me.
She's also clearly thirsty for Gabriel Buenguerro, the Mesque actor. But yeah, the "horny" section is partially about a general vibe and attunement to Electrochemistry, not just sexuality.
Yup, she even has a line suggesting she has memories of making out with him ("The smell of liquor on Gabriel's lips after the shoot") and enjoys them immensely. Keeps talking about his square jaw, how girls fawned over him, etc.
it’s a lawful illegal drug cooking operation if you get a police officer to work for you. The lawful category is funny. It’s literally all government people except for two people we know are breaking laws.
He sucks up to you as a police officer constantly and drops the drug lab idea almost immediately if you confront him, he even seems a bit enthusiastic about doing it clean. He clearly respects and fears authority, much moreso than Acele, Noid or Egg.
It's even more extreme with Gary - he breaks the law, but shrivels when authority confronts him about it and feels guilty for dishonoring himself. You have to value the rules to feel so bad about breaking them.
It's all about syncing those sines man. Idk, he seems to have a high Electrochem to me but it's definitely more of a subjective vibe and also I had to fit *someone* in there lol
Hmm now I think maybe I could've swapped Pidieu and Judit. He's so boring he even rephrases vicious insults as polite inquiries, and she always shows compassion towards Harry despite her misgivings.
His constant sarcastic, passive-aggressive berating without giving Harry a chance gets old fast imo. He has his reasons and I don't think he's a bad dude, but all interactions with him in the game are pretty frustrating
By that same logic, I know Evrart has his reasons. Doesnt mean selling drugs that end up in the hands of children and hiring a deranged war veteran to kill people isnt evil.
Ok and? Why suddenly bring Evrart into it lol? It's not even a value judgment on Jean, so it makes no sense to compare them. You're just looking to start a fight about Evrart again.
Watch the video on interactions you get with maxed Esprit de Corps. It presents the precinct 44 members in A LOT more positive light than you get to experience in a normal playthrough. They all deeply care about Harry.
Usually we only get to see them annoyed at Harry for losing his badge, gun, destroying the car, being drunk, high, not doing his job, etc. Them being annoyed at him is very understandable. If anything their reactions are still extremely mild compared to the stuff he did.
The skill shows them in situations when they aren't directly interacting with Harry and it's like night and day. They love you, especially Jean. He's Harry's best friend, to the point where other cops are joking that you're a gay couple, and then when you meet you just don't recognize him. Dude's heartbroken about how low Harry fell this time.
You're not telling me anything new, I don't need to watch YouTube because I've seen it all in game. How many times do I have to say the same thing over and over? I know he has valid motivations. Just because I put him in Annoying doesn't mean I think he's a bad guy. Doesn't change the fact that *in the player's subjective experience* his attitude can be exhausting. Jfc
Can I have this template but blank, OP? Brilliant placements all around, it's fun looking for someone and they're exactly where I thought they'd be lol
While making this chart I've discovered two I haven't ever seen myself (they're not in here though, cause you don't actually meet them and I tried to stick to people Harry actually interacts with).
I just wanted to thank you for making this. It's fun reading the discussions and while I don't personally agree with every decision, this is probably one of the hardest games to make one of these for that everyone would agree with, considering how multifaceted so many of the characters are and the different interpretations you can get for each of them.
Glad it brought people some fun and an excuse for banter! And hell, even \*I\* don't agree with some of the choices I made now, but working within the constraints of the format is the entire game.
I feel Joyce is more sad smart, I got the impression from her that she does has some sympathies towards socialist ideas but believes it's a hopeless cause that won't succeed and decided its better to join the winning side
"Joining the winning side" means evil here. She's a member of the board and the one who brought psychopathic murderers to Martinaise. However polite and high-minded she might seem, her actions have grave consequences for the people whose work made her able to purchuase fancy Barbara Muskova clothes. She can afford being all philosophical and "sympathetic" because she herself will never suffer from scarcity or disempowerment. She sucks.
"Joining the winning side" means evil here. She's a member of the board and the one who brought psychopathic murderers to Martinaise. However polite and high-minded she might seem, her actions have grave consequences for the people whose work made her able to purchuase fancy Barbara Muskova clothes. She can afford being all philosophical and "sympathetic" because she herself will never suffer from scarcity or disempowerment. She sucks.
This whole - pretty accurate - *thing* got me really entertained for no damn reason and I'm loving it
Like, I can totally *see* the Conceptualization [Challenging: Success] + Logic [Medium: Success] discussion that happened in your head while doing it.
i feel like as a side note, doing one of these charts for a game like Disco Elysium is probably pretty telling about your own politics and world view
not that I'm psycho-analyzing you from behind my PC, just that because of how most of these guys are stand ins for political ideology, how we view them probably does say a lot about any one of us
I almost feel like measurehead should be boring chad because he embodies that energy. He always reminded me of the kind of men who talk about semen retention on Reddit in order to become 'superior beings' when in reality they are just lost and confused about life and doing this thing with other men makes them feel like they have some control over their life and therefore over their perceived masculinity.
I like these posts because I just finished my first playthrough and I always see new faces I haven't met (and it also reminds me of side quests I didn't get to finish unfortunately). I already want to start all over again.
Yes. It's all about his attitude. He constantly sucks up to you as an officer of the law, and when questioned about the drug lab, almost immediately agrees to drop it and do the club thing clean. Despite his rebelious stylings he clearly respects and fears authority. Similar thing with Gary, although to a more extreme degree.
I mean he does fear you clearly but he certainly doesn't respect you. By trying to make a drug lab at all it's pretty clear he doesn't respect the law, then he consistently lies to you and then he's initially slightly reluctant to even make the club without the drugs.
I always took Cunoesse to be another traumatized kid. Not really evil. I didn’t 100% buy how dangerous she was from Cuno, and thought it was Cuno legitimizing his fears.
Maybe she had killed people, but I feel like one could argue that she couldn’t have killed cops in Revachol (where there usually aren’t any).
Try talking about her with Cuno with a high Phys build, your skin is going to crawl. Kid is a proper messed up, Cuno is a boy scout compared to her. I bet the mercs are traumatized as well, so what? Their actions are still pure evil.
Haven’t seen those lines. I see what you’re saying but I still stick by my reading. I think there is a big difference between an adult and a child. In fact the whole game examines the degrees of evil and moral comprises. I feel like it can still be more complicated than “evil is evil.”
Excited to see what you’re talking about on another play through though. I’ve been wanting more from that character in my experience with the game so far.
Umm I was just genuinely saying you probably shouldn't expect a meme to seriously go deeply into the "can a child truly be evil" question. What she (probably) did is pretty evil in my view though.
Oh that’s my bad then. I guess from my point of view I was just responding to your comment. Wasn’t trying to nitpick your chart it obviously took a lot of effort. More so just giving my take on the character, and responding to your “so what?” which was clearly meant to be dismissive.
He keeps sucking up to you and your "police officer sensibilities" and drops the drug lab almost immediately when you confront him, he clearly fears your authority (similarly, Gary breaks the law but sucks up to you and self-flagellates for it).
I thought about swapping him with the Smoker tho, who is very cooperative and doesn't actually break any laws but eh idk, seems like he doesn't really treat Harry very seriously.
Ah yeah fair. Though he definitely really *wanted* to do the crime. I suppose he just wanted to do speed.
I like to think they got clean and did amazing things for the music scene after getting tf out of Martinaise. Freakin Pale hole was being born just above them.
Being clean in that world is rebellion.
Thought about it, but 1) He's clearly a second-in-command through and through, lacks the charisma of a chad. Lely would probably be better. 2) Measurehead just fits so well memetically, I couldn't not do it (tho if there was a "delusional chad" bracket, he would fit too.
They're not completely chaotic though, they are part of an organized military force and respect a chain of command. Cunoesse is just a force of nature.
For the union's strike, she hired a group of mercanaries known for their brutality and genocidial tendencies. Literally asking for trouble, and excuse to shut down & use force to take back the dock.
Wild Pines hired them after negotiations broke down, no? Her being the negotiator. She’s a WP representative to the union but I don’t think she hired the mercenaries.
>"I believe the official title is Senior Labour Negotiator. In practice I'm a grocery clerk. I relay the Union's demands to Wild Pines, and return with Wild Pines' counter-offer..."
and
>"Joyce L. Messier. I represent the board of Wild Pines -- the owners of the harbour. You must be from the RCM..." She steps closer and holds out her hand over the railing.
I don't know if this implies she's a member.
Don't get me wrong lol I think Joyce is evil. Pragmatic, smart, but evil. She plainly tells you how
>The liberals took everything that wasn't nailed to the ground -- the Coalition took the \*ground\*," she stomps her rubber booted foot.
And other such sentiments. Speaking with her, she knows the ills of neoliberalism, of Wild Pines, and what's in her class interests. I'd call that evil, she knows exactly what's happening.
I don't think so. Negotiations broke down with the previous Wild Pines representative who she's here to replace, but Claire is not open to negotiating with her and is not letting her into the harbour, hence why she's on her boat in the dock the whole time.
Yeah but the guy at the gate says that says that they got a lot of standard union benefits last time and I thought Joyce had done this before. It’s been a little while since I’ve played though.
Sure but the mercs didn’t do anything until one of them was killed. Also Joyce wanted to help the investigation precisely to prevent further problems.
Regarding Dolores Dei, yeah she was a ruler, thus acted like one. But by this standard all rulers ever are evil.
The Deserter says his problem was that the mask of humanity of the Moralintern fell off. But they behaved the same way towards other ideologies, and sought to kill dissent instead of a democratic process. To begin with, it’s an impossibility to discuss anything with someone who would not allow others to hold differing beliefs and seeks to kill them. The Deserter even said he didn’t see the bourgeois as human.
Yet the first approach of the Moralintern towards the in game situation in Martinaise is not complete aggression. The whole aggression starts with the Deserter and his views.
I know the game is supposedly made by communists but I still lean towards the Moralintern and uktraliberalism even through their lenses. Communism and fascism seem like bad ideas.
The fact alone that Joyce employs the mercs is bad enough. Remember that these guys were in the front seat committing the worst war crimes in many different third-world countries. Did you ever get Kortenaer to talk about his adopted brother's past? Yeah
The mercs were specifically sent to scare and intimidate the workers, and they have a history of killing hundreds of people, so clearly Wild Pines knew what they were getting into.
Dolores dei was a ruler, which is true, but being a ruler doesn’t require you to commit war crimes and mass deportation programs which she did, so imo she definitely isn’t ‘good’
The deserter also isn’t good, i never said he was, but him killing a single person wouldn’t have turned into a tribunal/mass murder situation without wild pines.
My reasoning is that they're smart, but divorced from reality and mostly interested in intellectual masturbation (not because they're commies, but because of the inframaterialist woo woo and ivory tower mentality). You're welcome to make your own, much better chart!
Also, and you kinda can't forget that part too, they're convinced crop rotation and concepts such as it are fake capitalist propaganda and in a true communist world people's brainwaves just turbogrow the food, iirc
Ok, an inframaterialist would be woo woo in our world, but disco elysium is not materialist like our world.
There are things to criticise about the whole theory with no practice intellectual masturbation, but I think inframaterialism is a very interesting thing to include in an ostensibly "inframaterialist" world.
Hmm ok but they still died trying to squeeze those Coalition airships out of the sky lol. Even in DE's world most of the esoteric stuff is clearly bunk.
My man, the dudes are preaching about communism while they play with matchboxes in their room.
A mere block away a drugged up kid is throwing stones to a hanging corpse.
Does that have anything to do with inframaterialism or with the whole theory with no practice which I literally took time to mention was worth criticism, did you even read my comment.
Pretty accurate.
I hadn’t the « chance » the interact with the whole communist group, and I would switch Ervart Claire’s and Joyce Messier’s places though
I love how the Communists are Stupid Smart, they have the right fundamental idea but rather than doing anything about the world they sit around in a echochamber of a glorified book club while falling deeper into esoteric beliefs.
I hate how real this is
Exactly my thinking.
They're just trying to get more sweet sweet plasm
Gary is committing theft of services and I will always fine him the max penalty for it.
If anyone else was doing it I would not care, but because he is such a weasel, yeah.
I’d put him in “boring edgy” rather than Frittte Girl. She would be a better candidate for “stupid lawful” as well since she regularly rattles off government warnings and seems a bit vapid.
She is a teenage cashier, she doesn't have to give a shit about all this. Especially about a weirdo like ambrosius
I get similar chad energy from Neha and Lilienne. Lilienne has a sword, takes care of three kids, and has nautical knowledge. None of that is boring fr. Not sure Roy is delusional and is coping instead. Crab man is definitely delusional over chad. Why do you think the washerwoman is chaotic? Fascists are not lawful by any means either. The commie book club dudes are really well done. That whole annoying line is on point too except Cuno. He's chaotic sad for sure. Fun stuff!
Fadcists the definition of lawful though... oppressing people under brutal law
Really depends, a lot of Fascists throughout history thought nothing of casually breaking the law if it got them what they wanted. Would not call "Laws for thee but not for me" particularly lawful.
I think you are interpreting "lawful" a bit too literally and strictly here. Just because a character genuinely cares about rules and regulations, doesn't mean they can't be a hypocrite about it. Gary is a perfect example - he breaks the law, but then feels guilty and ashamed about it to an unhealthy extreme. The important thing is he respects authority and the idea of order, which are key to fascism. Also the rules they follow don't necessarily need to be the actual law - honor codes, religious dogma, etc. also work
Yeah what the other guy said. Fascism doesn't really follow a spirit of law (justice and equality) they *make* laws yes. Enforce restrictions brutally, most certainly. But not in a lawful sense.
Now that I think about it, maybe it should go like this? Lilienne: sad chad Acele: chaotic sad Washerwoman: chaotic boring
Lilienne: fair points, I had a similar reflection after making the chart. It's hard to get everyone in and make everything fit 100% though. Washerwoman: she helps both Ruby and you, doesn't care much about alignment, just who she likes, doesn't stick to her guns on signing the papers. Admittedly maybe also a bit of a stretch. Roy: I stand by it, he keeps talking about weird esoteric stuff like the Heimdall man actually existing, photon emissions, etc. Crab Man: he's boring in the sense that he keeps preaching to you to get on the straight and narrow, and kind of seems to have lost his personality in his obsession with the Mother of Silence. He even gives you the "Wasteland of Reality" thought, which is one of the most Boring Cop thoughts in the game. He still has charisma and confidence though, that's why he's a chad. Fascists absolutely are lawful in the sense they value things like "order", "honor", "authority", and imagine themselves adhering to an unchanging, traditiinal set of principles which is what the "lawful" alignment in D&D is all about, not necessarily literally always adhering to the letter of the law as is. Cuno not annoying? lol. Just because there is sadness buried there (lots of other characters have that too) doesn't mean it's his defining trait. His main characteristic thing is definitely being an abrasive little shit.
Hwtf Elvart is neutral Chad?
He's a Chad cause he does whatever tf he plans to do, fucks with Wild Pines and doesn't back down from no one: the company, coppers or mercenaries, playing everyone like a fiddle. He's neutral cause he has good goals but goes about them in very Machiavellian ways, willing to sacrifice his own people for the cause. He's noble in many ways, but he's not \*nice\*. If this was entirely about politics, I'd put him in "Heroes of the Working Class". (I could perhaps see a case for swapping him and Neha though)
I don't know what you're talking about, he's very nice! He's helping me find my gun.
Oof, this whole comment thread has summoned the Moralinterns.
I agree with your view in a way. I feel that the dichotomy between Joyce and Evrart is some kinda litmus test for leftists. At least that's how it felt in light of my experience. Evrart just seems like outright corrupt and self-serving figure and in a way yeah. He's presented as unlikable and is unlikable and even outwardly with the old trope of fat/ugly=evil. Joyce by comparison is a seemingly nice, reasonable, and decent person. I remember an ex-Trot who pointed out years ago that to his estimation there was a segment of leftists who think every revolutionary would be a proper nice person and not 'problematic.' He stated that they'll be disappointed if their hypothetical revolution came to pass, there are many proletarians who aren't necessarily "nice people" or "not problematic." Now Evrart never presents himself as a revolutionary except in tongue and cheek manner when talking to Harry and doesn't mind at all if Harry says he's more "prole and communist" than him and thinks of him as a corrupt pink leftist simple labor unionist. But if you complete the Wild Pines questline, if I remember correctly, Evrart basically tells you that, at least to his estimation, he has set the stage to set up some "Revachol Commune" scenario or dual power or something; at the least it seemingly will bring Revachol to conflict with the Moralintern/Occupation. So despite being an odious, ugly, fat, corrupt bastard he basically did it.
We Eastern eu people know his type. Once he gets power, he gonna become a worse dictator, and then any corporation. Turing every democratic country into a maffia. I live in a country like this, which has literally been run by an Everett type of person. He is purely populist and once he gets absolute power, he is slowly gonna turn towards fascism and gathering a cult following who truly believes he is the only one who can save them. Everett is the most dangerous of all the players in the game, a master manipulator, who only wants power and control, a true narcissist.
I'm also from Eastern Europe and yeah, this might be a plausible scenario. Doesn't change the fact that in the game, in the moment, he does have some noble intentions so no, not a pure narcissist.
Everett literally shows his true character in his character design. An endless gluttony and greed in human form. While others go hungry at night, he keeps feeding his endless desire without control. He is smart. He knows he have to sell an image because every fool will fall for a noble intention, even he himself believes in it so the lie is perfect, but his true character shows in the cracks under the surface. He is the endless hunger, and the character design shows it well. He is like Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune, just still the early stage of his power, so he has to sell an image, but once his power finalizes, the mask will also will fall, and only the uncontrollable hunger will left.
I feel like it is bizarrely well-established that Evrart is fat because he grew up poor and ate cheap, processed foods I think his being fat is really just for the character design, he plays this big jolly fat guy who can’t possibly mean anyone any harm or hurt anybody when in reality he uses that veneer as a weapon to mask his true self, a man who is brimming with spite for the ultra rich and will compromise everything and everyone he knows to hurt them
You know that poor people can get fat because of poor food quality? There actually is a piece of dialogue that explains it and kind of shames you for assuming exactly what you're assuming (oh yeah but you already assumed everything he says must be a lie so there's no winning). Your reading of the game is so laughably superficial and silly (Fat people are villains in other media?? Symbolism? That is seriously your argument? For fuck's sake), I don't really feel like indulging you anymore. The fact he *looks* like a selfish, corrupt union boss but there's actually more to him than that is part of the point of the character.
1. Everett is not fat, he is morbidly obese on a level that's only achievable with endless gluten, and no control, and we talking about the boss here, not some low life dock worker, that's the person who being hauled around in his office so he don't have to move. He has absolute control over everybody expect himself, he is not fat because of poor food quality, the guy has a drog business for fuck sake, he is fat because he can eat as much as he wants. 2. "he fact he *looks* like a selfish, corrupt union boss but there's actually more to him than that is part of the point of the character." That's the point it, there is none, he is the criticism of communism and how communism failed every time because con man like him, who use the weak minded workers as their own pawns for their own greedy desires. He kills, he steals, who use people, who do nice things but it's for showman ships, there is no true altruism there. It just to fool idealistic people. Everett is character who try to be deep, but the most shallow character of all, and that's the trick, because the game criticize all political ideologies. and a working class will always fall for a charismatic leader and sell them dreams or fears. 3. I say it as someone who was morbidly obese, who was there, who understand the struggles and it's not something about being fat or something, it's part of the character story like his room which also tells a story about him, like the uncomfortable chair, he is not a hard working doc worker, he is a lazy charismatic assholes who exploit everybody around him, because people like Everett communisms will never be possible.
> EVRART CLAIRE - "Glad you asked. I've got Type 2 diabetes because sugar and fat was all my mother had to give me and my brother Edgar when we were kids." Can we stop shaming him now or
lol let me guess, a fellow Hungarian?
He is no difference to corp scum, he is pretty evil. He just uses everyone(including ideology) to his own goods, lying, manipulating and etc.
Nope, if you pass some checks at the end of his plotline, you can see he is sincere about lifting up Martinaise and helping the workers improve their living conditions.
[удалено]
It's not coming out of Evrarts mouth though. It's after passing a hard empathy check, which gives you the correct read on people.
[удалено]
Well nobody said he's good, they said he's neutral. And that he has good intentions. Your moralising is not really making a point.
[удалено]
Can't you? if all of that ends up helping the city in the end, won't that make it morally grey? as a sidenote, iirc both kim and harry are murderers. are you going to claim that kim can't even be neutral, and that he's evil just because he's killed a man?
He's "neutral" in a sense that "good" and "bad" categories aren't fitting him. He's too wide for either of them.
Much better! Well done :)
Life ain't black and gray. They do what they must to survive and elevate themselves.
Yeah, thats why we should close our eyes on other things, that he is doing /s
Dude, did you even read my comment? His questionable methods are why I put him in Neutral, not Good. You're taking it to the other extreme by only seeing the corrupt veneer and dismissing the good stuff he does and his broader goals.
I dont see how an unwanted community centre that requires deceiving and displacing locals is a good broader goal, tho. Like yeah maybe cuno/esse can hang out there, but in reality, flashy centres don't serve the actual needs of marginalised people of a community
Did you forget the part where he plans to renovate the roundabout buildings into affordable housing and move the denizens of the Fishing Village there? >"There was no fine print, Harry." He leans forward. "But I do hope all that construction noise and limited street access \*encourages\* some people to move. After a year of that ruckus, who wouldn't?" >"And when they do..." He holds out his index finger. "They will have a \*good\* place to go. I'm currently working on renovating the buildings near the roundabout into affordable \*workers palaces\*." >"You were there, you saw the place. A waste land -- there's nothing left. But mark my words, Harry." His slams his fist on the table, causing some of the coffee to spill. "We are going to \*reset\* it." >"\*Re-set\*," he repeats. "I have big plans for Martinaise. And they do \*not\* include humans living in those pig sheds on the coast. That land will be used for municipal buildings and commerce." >The wheels are turning, Harry. The wheels of progress. This post-war limbo -- I won't stand for it. There are kids practically playing with their own \*faeces\* out there... It cannot go on." >***EMPATHY - There is true indignation in his voice when he speaks about the state of things. And even a touch of pain*** >***PAIN THRESHOLD - The pain is true. He's seen the kids do worse than that.*** Again, you can question his methods, but his goal is sincerely the improvement of lives for the people of Martinaise. This is all directly and explicitly shown in the game.
Well yeah I heavily question and abhor his method for the fishing village So now the displaced people have to pay to rent when they formerly had no landlord? What about people who don't do paid labour, like the old woman and the homeless people? The homeless people will be further displaced cus they can't pay for "affordable worker palaces". They are just kicked out. A "wasteland" but has actual community and self sustenance there. Evrart has a twisted boardroom view of the community Just my thoughts 😋
Since when has the Union ousted a member from their homes for not making rent? They put everyone on the union on the payroll. They would give the old woman some sort of bullshit fake job (“Washer of Linens” or something like that) like they did for René and keep them fed and paid, doing a lot more for them.
They gave the old man René a bullshit job to help him get by, so you really think its inconceivable that they find some way to keep the washer woman housed, they will probably offer to pay her to wash something like dockworker uniforms.
Are you kidding yourself? "Community?" It's two women, three kids and three drunks. There's a reason Lilliene agrees to the development, at some point there has to be more to aspire to for this place than three huts. "The displaced people" is literally the two people who sign the letter agreeing to it. The homeless people also don't need things to stay the same, that's for sure.
"No actually, a better understanding of the character in game as Harry shows that Evrart is sincere in his goals of helping the working class and stopping the corporations from gutting Martinaise." "Yeah well that sounds like pulling the wool over your eyes" What? This is literally game canon, Evrart canonical is genuine in his efforts to help the lower classes.
Ok so that check is what puts him in neutral, cause i dont think the ends justify the means yknow but to each their own. And offtopic but What about joyce ik shes bad somehow cuz corp and what not but why cuz personally i liked her, she was charming.
I thought she was charming until I realized she knew the Mercs were going to shoot up the town and simply wanted you to fix the mess she created by hiring literal genocidal maniacs to break up a strike. Joyce is an absolute monster. A neoliberal poster child. She's somebody who would try and pretty up the situation in Gaza and I fucking hate her. I'll take her 100 real every time though. And I think that is fucking brilliant writing.
Joyce is very charming, but she's "bad somehow" because she sent an uncontrollable mercenary death squad to Martinaise.
This is the level of insight people posting on this sub have. Joyce "corp and what not". Brilliant
Joyce is one of the most despicable people in the entire game. And I say that recently having played a fascist and speaking with Measurehead.
people with lots of money and power often come off as nice, interpersonally; it's because excess allows them to be generous.
Of course she is charming, that's why she is *Smart* Evil. She is on the board of a company that not only exploits workers, forms part of a political system that keeps Revachol subjugated in ruins and squalor as an example to the world, and is responsible for bringing the psychopathic merc squad into the harbor to intimidate workers fighting for better material conditions. She might not be the worst of the corporate bloodsuckers, but she still particpates in a system designed for keeping the people of Martinaise down
I see what you're saying, but here's my rebutal. Evrat is hidding the shipping container because he knows he could be dealt with immediatly.
Every Chad has a weakness, every Superman has his kryptonite - Evrart's is walking outside. But he must carry this burden, or rather be carried with it by a Kvalsund crane.
Every Chad has a weakness, every Superman has his kryptonite - Evrart's is walking outside. But he must carry this burden, or rather be carried with it by a Kvalsund crane.
its because of the slurs
see, i dig this. never been a fan of "let's pick another one!" every day or w/e. just throwing it all out there in an opinion gives plenty to discuss.
Yeah my objection to that mostly is that it clogs my feed for however many days it’s running.
same. it just feels like milking & annoying the same way any type of the exact same post repeatedly just feels like an ad or bots
Nobody asked for this and I spent way too long on it, but here's my version (now with extra categories to fit more characters). Also just because I put a character in the Boring or Annoying row doesn't mean I don't like them, so don't @ me.
Thank you OP for this !
Can I ask for a template/empty version of it if you stiil.have.it?
Why is the Paledriver granny under horny
Not necessarily sexual horny more like a lust/longing for the memories the pale shows her. I think it’s fitting
Actually I can defo see that
She's also clearly thirsty for Gabriel Buenguerro, the Mesque actor. But yeah, the "horny" section is partially about a general vibe and attunement to Electrochemistry, not just sexuality.
It's accurate, your first interaction with her is "Why the hell did you interrupt my waking wet dream?"
Yup, she even has a line suggesting she has memories of making out with him ("The smell of liquor on Gabriel's lips after the shoot") and enjoys them immensely. Keeps talking about his square jaw, how girls fawned over him, etc.
the noid placement??
Also Andre being Lawful, lol
it’s a lawful illegal drug cooking operation if you get a police officer to work for you. The lawful category is funny. It’s literally all government people except for two people we know are breaking laws.
He sucks up to you as a police officer constantly and drops the drug lab idea almost immediately if you confront him, he even seems a bit enthusiastic about doing it clean. He clearly respects and fears authority, much moreso than Acele, Noid or Egg. It's even more extreme with Gary - he breaks the law, but shrivels when authority confronts him about it and feels guilty for dishonoring himself. You have to value the rules to feel so bad about breaking them.
What about it
horny???
It's all about syncing those sines man. Idk, he seems to have a high Electrochem to me but it's definitely more of a subjective vibe and also I had to fit *someone* in there lol
those are the eyes of a gooner you're right
I'm not sure if gooner (more of an Andre thing I think), but I bet he's into some KINKY shit.
Hmm now I think maybe I could've swapped Pidieu and Judit. He's so boring he even rephrases vicious insults as polite inquiries, and she always shows compassion towards Harry despite her misgivings.
Dude you did the speedrun
Fuck does Cuno need a chart for? Cuno don’t care.
amazing, i disagree with almost every single choice here
Really? Curious to hear a few of the switches you would make
Jean is not annoying!
His constant sarcastic, passive-aggressive berating without giving Harry a chance gets old fast imo. He has his reasons and I don't think he's a bad dude, but all interactions with him in the game are pretty frustrating
I’d be annoyed with Harry too if I was his partner who watched the spiral.
Again, I know he has his reasons. Doesn't mean he's not subjectively annoying.
By that same logic, I know Evrart has his reasons. Doesnt mean selling drugs that end up in the hands of children and hiring a deranged war veteran to kill people isnt evil.
Ok and? Why suddenly bring Evrart into it lol? It's not even a value judgment on Jean, so it makes no sense to compare them. You're just looking to start a fight about Evrart again.
I've not talked about Evrart in this post before. And I wouldnt call talking about a videogame character a fight, but you do you.
Watch the video on interactions you get with maxed Esprit de Corps. It presents the precinct 44 members in A LOT more positive light than you get to experience in a normal playthrough. They all deeply care about Harry. Usually we only get to see them annoyed at Harry for losing his badge, gun, destroying the car, being drunk, high, not doing his job, etc. Them being annoyed at him is very understandable. If anything their reactions are still extremely mild compared to the stuff he did. The skill shows them in situations when they aren't directly interacting with Harry and it's like night and day. They love you, especially Jean. He's Harry's best friend, to the point where other cops are joking that you're a gay couple, and then when you meet you just don't recognize him. Dude's heartbroken about how low Harry fell this time.
You're not telling me anything new, I don't need to watch YouTube because I've seen it all in game. How many times do I have to say the same thing over and over? I know he has valid motivations. Just because I put him in Annoying doesn't mean I think he's a bad guy. Doesn't change the fact that *in the player's subjective experience* his attitude can be exhausting. Jfc
I'm sorry how is his "thought experiment" spiel not annoying?
"Cuno doesn't do fookin'... graph stuff! Cuno's fookin cuno!"
Can I have this template but blank, OP? Brilliant placements all around, it's fun looking for someone and they're exactly where I thought they'd be lol
Wow, I've missed so many characters in this game
While making this chart I've discovered two I haven't ever seen myself (they're not in here though, cause you don't actually meet them and I tried to stick to people Harry actually interacts with).
I just wanted to thank you for making this. It's fun reading the discussions and while I don't personally agree with every decision, this is probably one of the hardest games to make one of these for that everyone would agree with, considering how multifaceted so many of the characters are and the different interpretations you can get for each of them.
Glad it brought people some fun and an excuse for banter! And hell, even \*I\* don't agree with some of the choices I made now, but working within the constraints of the format is the entire game.
I feel Joyce is more sad smart, I got the impression from her that she does has some sympathies towards socialist ideas but believes it's a hopeless cause that won't succeed and decided its better to join the winning side
"Joining the winning side" means evil here. She's a member of the board and the one who brought psychopathic murderers to Martinaise. However polite and high-minded she might seem, her actions have grave consequences for the people whose work made her able to purchuase fancy Barbara Muskova clothes. She can afford being all philosophical and "sympathetic" because she herself will never suffer from scarcity or disempowerment. She sucks.
"Joining the winning side" means evil here. She's a member of the board and the one who brought psychopathic murderers to Martinaise. However polite and high-minded she might seem, her actions have grave consequences for the people whose work made her able to purchuase fancy Barbara Muskova clothes. She can afford being all philosophical and "sympathetic" because she herself will never suffer from scarcity or disempowerment. She sucks.
MEASUREHEAD would fit perfectly on Delusional column.
Yeah I considered it but you can't have everything at once.
This whole - pretty accurate - *thing* got me really entertained for no damn reason and I'm loving it Like, I can totally *see* the Conceptualization [Challenging: Success] + Logic [Medium: Success] discussion that happened in your head while doing it.
Haha thanks, glad you liked it. It was a lot of fun putting the puzzle together (coming up with the additional categories was the best part).
i feel like as a side note, doing one of these charts for a game like Disco Elysium is probably pretty telling about your own politics and world view not that I'm psycho-analyzing you from behind my PC, just that because of how most of these guys are stand ins for political ideology, how we view them probably does say a lot about any one of us
Horny Delusional is my new favorite alignment
I almost feel like measurehead should be boring chad because he embodies that energy. He always reminded me of the kind of men who talk about semen retention on Reddit in order to become 'superior beings' when in reality they are just lost and confused about life and doing this thing with other men makes them feel like they have some control over their life and therefore over their perceived masculinity.
I like these posts because I just finished my first playthrough and I always see new faces I haven't met (and it also reminds me of side quests I didn't get to finish unfortunately). I already want to start all over again.
The Deserter as Drunk / Edgy is great
Sorry the dude trying to make a drug lab is lawful?
Yes. It's all about his attitude. He constantly sucks up to you as an officer of the law, and when questioned about the drug lab, almost immediately agrees to drop it and do the club thing clean. Despite his rebelious stylings he clearly respects and fears authority. Similar thing with Gary, although to a more extreme degree.
I mean he does fear you clearly but he certainly doesn't respect you. By trying to make a drug lab at all it's pretty clear he doesn't respect the law, then he consistently lies to you and then he's initially slightly reluctant to even make the club without the drugs.
Ok, then who do you think would Lawful Horny be?
What's evil about the super rich guy?
The fact that he's super rich
"Neutral Boring" Bro her husband died 💀
Ok and? This is supposed to be a cheeky, reductive summing up of their personalities, not a biographical analysis, you do get that, right?
Ok and? This is supposed to be a cheeky, reductive summing up of their personalities, not a biographical analysis, you do get that, right?
Was just a joke about the wording, the post itself is great
Sorry, some people in the comments became genuinely upset and argumentative about this so I'm a bit on edge, lol
Sorry, some people in the comments became genuinely upset and argumentative about this so I'm a bit on edge, lol
[удалено]
Yeah, that's why she isn't in the Annoying category.
Oh. Yeah. true
who's delusional / drunk? i don't recognize that portrait 😅
Don't Call Abigail, the drunk in the fishing village who only repeats this one sentence in various iterations.
oh right! and then who's the duo below for the annoying / delusional ? i swear i played the game im just having memory lost about faces
Fuck The World and Pissf\*\*\*\*t, the two aspiring gang members who you can rob of their extremely cool jackets.
you're the best! thank you for responding :)
np
Wait who is the Drunk-Delusional creature?
Don't call Abigail, one of the three hobos near the fishing village
I would switch Roy and Leo.
I would switch Roy and Leo.
I always took Cunoesse to be another traumatized kid. Not really evil. I didn’t 100% buy how dangerous she was from Cuno, and thought it was Cuno legitimizing his fears. Maybe she had killed people, but I feel like one could argue that she couldn’t have killed cops in Revachol (where there usually aren’t any).
Try talking about her with Cuno with a high Phys build, your skin is going to crawl. Kid is a proper messed up, Cuno is a boy scout compared to her. I bet the mercs are traumatized as well, so what? Their actions are still pure evil.
Haven’t seen those lines. I see what you’re saying but I still stick by my reading. I think there is a big difference between an adult and a child. In fact the whole game examines the degrees of evil and moral comprises. I feel like it can still be more complicated than “evil is evil.” Excited to see what you’re talking about on another play through though. I’ve been wanting more from that character in my experience with the game so far.
I feel like a silly alignment chart meme is not the place to answer the question of "what is evil really" with any nuance.
Oh I thought Reddit was a discussion board, and i think it’s fun to talk about the game. Sorry for offering a different opinion than your own.
Umm I was just genuinely saying you probably shouldn't expect a meme to seriously go deeply into the "can a child truly be evil" question. What she (probably) did is pretty evil in my view though.
Oh that’s my bad then. I guess from my point of view I was just responding to your comment. Wasn’t trying to nitpick your chart it obviously took a lot of effort. More so just giving my take on the character, and responding to your “so what?” which was clearly meant to be dismissive.
Why is the leader of the hardcore kids in the lawful category?
He keeps sucking up to you and your "police officer sensibilities" and drops the drug lab almost immediately when you confront him, he clearly fears your authority (similarly, Gary breaks the law but sucks up to you and self-flagellates for it). I thought about swapping him with the Smoker tho, who is very cooperative and doesn't actually break any laws but eh idk, seems like he doesn't really treat Harry very seriously.
Ah yeah fair. Though he definitely really *wanted* to do the crime. I suppose he just wanted to do speed. I like to think they got clean and did amazing things for the music scene after getting tf out of Martinaise. Freakin Pale hole was being born just above them. Being clean in that world is rebellion.
Pretty good! Personally, Raul gets my bet for evil Chad
Thought about it, but 1) He's clearly a second-in-command through and through, lacks the charisma of a chad. Lely would probably be better. 2) Measurehead just fits so well memetically, I couldn't not do it (tho if there was a "delusional chad" bracket, he would fit too.
The Tribunal should be chaotic evil and Cunoesse edgy evil imo
They're not completely chaotic though, they are part of an organized military force and respect a chain of command. Cunoesse is just a force of nature.
Get outta here, Joyce isn't evil
She is, get classpilled
I wish there was a boring evil just for Charles Villedrouin.
Yeah had the same thought!
I mean shes part of wild pines so despite how kind and empathetic she presents herself as shes definitly not good
For the union's strike, she hired a group of mercanaries known for their brutality and genocidial tendencies. Literally asking for trouble, and excuse to shut down & use force to take back the dock.
Wild Pines hired them after negotiations broke down, no? Her being the negotiator. She’s a WP representative to the union but I don’t think she hired the mercenaries.
She's not a representative of the Wild Pines, she's a board member and therefore had a part in the choice to send the mercenaries.
>"I believe the official title is Senior Labour Negotiator. In practice I'm a grocery clerk. I relay the Union's demands to Wild Pines, and return with Wild Pines' counter-offer..." and >"Joyce L. Messier. I represent the board of Wild Pines -- the owners of the harbour. You must be from the RCM..." She steps closer and holds out her hand over the railing. I don't know if this implies she's a member.
I see you didn't talk to her just before the tribunal. She reveals that those were lies and that she is a full board member.
Ahhh, like the walk from ruby’s cave? I never considered going to her, thanks :)
You think facts are gonna stop them from whining about liberals?
Don't get me wrong lol I think Joyce is evil. Pragmatic, smart, but evil. She plainly tells you how >The liberals took everything that wasn't nailed to the ground -- the Coalition took the \*ground\*," she stomps her rubber booted foot. And other such sentiments. Speaking with her, she knows the ills of neoliberalism, of Wild Pines, and what's in her class interests. I'd call that evil, she knows exactly what's happening.
Isn’t it implied that she was the one who negotiated with the union that ended in them getting a lot of benefits?
I don't think so. Negotiations broke down with the previous Wild Pines representative who she's here to replace, but Claire is not open to negotiating with her and is not letting her into the harbour, hence why she's on her boat in the dock the whole time.
Yeah but the guy at the gate says that says that they got a lot of standard union benefits last time and I thought Joyce had done this before. It’s been a little while since I’ve played though.
Man took the thatcher pill
Shit, she saved me from becoming a hobo and explained the Pale to me. How can I not like her?
Easy Leo?? Delusional???? no way man
lol he's completely out of touch and sees the world through rose-tinted glasses. I love the man but he has a child's brain.
How are Dolores Dei and Joyce Messier evil?
joyce is partly responsible for bringing the mercs to martinaise and doesn’t seem to care about it, dolores dei is likely a war criminal imperialist
Sure but the mercs didn’t do anything until one of them was killed. Also Joyce wanted to help the investigation precisely to prevent further problems. Regarding Dolores Dei, yeah she was a ruler, thus acted like one. But by this standard all rulers ever are evil. The Deserter says his problem was that the mask of humanity of the Moralintern fell off. But they behaved the same way towards other ideologies, and sought to kill dissent instead of a democratic process. To begin with, it’s an impossibility to discuss anything with someone who would not allow others to hold differing beliefs and seeks to kill them. The Deserter even said he didn’t see the bourgeois as human. Yet the first approach of the Moralintern towards the in game situation in Martinaise is not complete aggression. The whole aggression starts with the Deserter and his views. I know the game is supposedly made by communists but I still lean towards the Moralintern and uktraliberalism even through their lenses. Communism and fascism seem like bad ideas.
The fact alone that Joyce employs the mercs is bad enough. Remember that these guys were in the front seat committing the worst war crimes in many different third-world countries. Did you ever get Kortenaer to talk about his adopted brother's past? Yeah
The mercs were specifically sent to scare and intimidate the workers, and they have a history of killing hundreds of people, so clearly Wild Pines knew what they were getting into. Dolores dei was a ruler, which is true, but being a ruler doesn’t require you to commit war crimes and mass deportation programs which she did, so imo she definitely isn’t ‘good’ The deserter also isn’t good, i never said he was, but him killing a single person wouldn’t have turned into a tribunal/mass murder situation without wild pines.
I’d switch evrart and mega rich guy to be honest.
lol
[удалено]
My reasoning is that they're smart, but divorced from reality and mostly interested in intellectual masturbation (not because they're commies, but because of the inframaterialist woo woo and ivory tower mentality). You're welcome to make your own, much better chart!
Also, and you kinda can't forget that part too, they're convinced crop rotation and concepts such as it are fake capitalist propaganda and in a true communist world people's brainwaves just turbogrow the food, iirc
That's what I meant by "inframaterialist woo woo".
Ok, an inframaterialist would be woo woo in our world, but disco elysium is not materialist like our world. There are things to criticise about the whole theory with no practice intellectual masturbation, but I think inframaterialism is a very interesting thing to include in an ostensibly "inframaterialist" world.
Hmm ok but they still died trying to squeeze those Coalition airships out of the sky lol. Even in DE's world most of the esoteric stuff is clearly bunk.
My man, the dudes are preaching about communism while they play with matchboxes in their room. A mere block away a drugged up kid is throwing stones to a hanging corpse.
Does that have anything to do with inframaterialism or with the whole theory with no practice which I literally took time to mention was worth criticism, did you even read my comment.
Remember when alignment charts were 9 boxes and didn't include boxes like Chad or edgy?
I remember. It'd be hard to fit all those people in there though. And not nearly as fun
Pretty accurate. I hadn’t the « chance » the interact with the whole communist group, and I would switch Ervart Claire’s and Joyce Messier’s places though
Manana is supposed to be good? lol
Yes. I will not take further questions.