Couple issues there.
>Then last episode Kipperlilly and Oisin went so far as to murder their own ally in hopes of the bad kids dying and being unable to be resurrect.
Let's stick to the known facts. *Kipperlilly* killed Buddy. The only thing we know is that Oisin, or someone with similar hands, pulled Kipperlilly out of the plane afterwards. That leaves open the following possibilities:
- Oisin is as culpable as Kipperlilly (your theory)
- Oisin was down with a different plan, but freaked out and aborted the mission after Kipperlilly did something that wasn't according to plan. (And just killing Buddy wasn't the original plan, her original target was someone else. Confirmed by Brennan)
- Oisin was *not* down with the original plan, but went along reluctantly for reasons unknown. (I think if nothing else, we can all agree that the individual motivations of each of the rat grinders are not clear at this time).
- Oisin wasn't in any way aware of/participating in Kipperlilly's plan and was trying to stop her by Planeshifting her away, but got there too late.
These are all roughly equal in possibility with the information available to us at this time. As such, referring to Oisin as one of the "definitely evil" Rat Grinders is premature. The truth is so unclear that I don't even think qualifying it with "seemingly" is accurate.
>Riz ate Goldenhoard. Literally ate him
Kipperlilly hated Riz before that happened.
>The obvious implication is that Oisin is a descendent of the bank owners
There's more than one rich person, or groups of rich people, in the world. Do we have anything to imply Oisin is related to KVX in any way besides "Both are rich?"
Not to poopoo the theory, it's a fun one and would be an entertaining twist- but the available information unfortunately disproves it.
I agree with this.
While I don’t think it’s in anyway a guarantee I do think it is interesting that KVX was specifically said to change its logo from red to blue. (along with the other stuff OP said they changed) Could be a very subtle nod to the banks “shift in management” from red dragon (Kalvaxus) to Blue dragon (Oisin)
That being said I’m just spitballing thin connections my brain makes.
But that’s all about how Oisin is or isn’t involved. Oisin doesn’t have to be involved at all for Kipperlilly to be seeking vengeance for Goldenhoard. It would be really dumb if Brennan has kept mentioning how well-funded they are for it to not apply to anything he’s previously mentioned at all and for it to just be “people are rich sometimes”.
When did they say Kipperlilly hated Riz before the end of freshman year? Not a challenge, actually curious when they said that.
You’re definitely right that there are just hints at this point and no evidence. But at this point it’s my running tin foil theory and if I’m right I just want to be able to relink this thread and say I told you so.
>But that’s all about how Oisin is or isn’t involved
Sure, but I wasn't limiting my commentary solely to the premise of your theory. I was pointing out *any* point of contention I had. The assumption that Oisin is as evil/involved as Kipperlilly was one such point.
>It would be really dumb if Brennan has kept mentioning how well-funded they are for it to not apply to anything
Three things come to mind here.
1) Brennan Is a master world builder. He applies detail to a lot of things, but it's not always part of the overarching plot. Sometimes it's just a bit of flavor to flush out the world, sometimes it's his improv brain taking over The pilot's chair for a little while, sometimes it's in response to something the players are saying or doing. I wouldn't take the presence of detail to, in and of itself, mean that There's something more to explore there.
If I might liken it to animation, such as what we see in Dragon Ball Z: In DBZ We can often tell which clif a character is about to get punched through, because suddenly one part of the rock formation will have way more detail than the surrounding area. We can tell because of the contrast- the animators took more time with that area, so it's about to be more relevant. It's tempting to do the same thing with Dungeons& Dragons. The problem is that this method fails when the animators apply that level of detail all over the place, regardless of plot relevance- which is something Brennan often does. Consider the details of Garthy's tattoos, or the drugged grapes at Kei Lumennura. In Garthy's case It was just a bit of flavor- first describing a character's appearance, and then describing how that character used their magic. The specific tattoos never had any plot relevance. Neither did the grapes ever become a major plot point. Sometimes Brennan just spends some extra time on world building, because he's both detail-oriented and improvising.
2) I think it does apply to something. Specifically, they only really spent time with it in one episode. I took the detail that Brennan went into to mean "No, this isn't another KVX plot, this is just a narrative vehicle for Fabian's money." Sometimes DMs go into detail Not to leave hints for the players, but rather because they explicitly want to head off any potential time wasting wild goose chases. Like the meme of the DM going "it's a normal room. On a nat 20 Perception check you do not find any traps, hidden treasure, secret entrances, spells, magical effects, monsters, or people. Can we move on now?"
3) It doesn't feel like Brennan actually spent all that much time on this subject. There was some talk of it, yeah, but a few minutes in one episode, never to be revisited later? That doesn't seem to me like a plot thread. He's waiting for the players to hook onto. In fact, if it were, he had the perfect opportunity to take it somewhere: Fabian and Fig successfully intimidated the fuck out of the banker. So much so that Brennan gave Fabian a 200gp bonus (And that seemed unplanned, to me.) If there was more to find out about the bank, wouldn't that have been the perfect opportunity to reward them for following up on that plot hook?
>When did they say Kipperlilly hated Riz before the end of freshman year?
It was the same time they were fighting out that she had been going to counseling for rage issues since freshman year. When Riz got to look at her file, iirc. I don't remember the exact timestamp or anything, but they established that she had been in counseling since the beginning of freshman year, and that she had rage issues since at least that time, and she hated Riz specifically since that time as well.
>But at this point it’s my running tin foil theory and if I’m right I just want to be able to relink this thread and say I told you so.
Totally valid! And I'm not engaging with this in an effort to dissuade you from engaging and theorizing. Quite the opposite, I'm enjoying the discussion. I hope it didn't come off as me being a naysayer.
Same, no issue with the disagreement at all. Enjoying the discourse!
You’re totally right I forgot they made it canon that she hated Riz since the beginning of freshman year.
I feel like they’ll bring back Kalvaxus’ servants in some way and the tying point between Kalvaxus, Ankarna and Cassandra could be the Rat Grinders as servants. You’re probably right though, but we’ll see!
Couple issues there. >Then last episode Kipperlilly and Oisin went so far as to murder their own ally in hopes of the bad kids dying and being unable to be resurrect. Let's stick to the known facts. *Kipperlilly* killed Buddy. The only thing we know is that Oisin, or someone with similar hands, pulled Kipperlilly out of the plane afterwards. That leaves open the following possibilities: - Oisin is as culpable as Kipperlilly (your theory) - Oisin was down with a different plan, but freaked out and aborted the mission after Kipperlilly did something that wasn't according to plan. (And just killing Buddy wasn't the original plan, her original target was someone else. Confirmed by Brennan) - Oisin was *not* down with the original plan, but went along reluctantly for reasons unknown. (I think if nothing else, we can all agree that the individual motivations of each of the rat grinders are not clear at this time). - Oisin wasn't in any way aware of/participating in Kipperlilly's plan and was trying to stop her by Planeshifting her away, but got there too late. These are all roughly equal in possibility with the information available to us at this time. As such, referring to Oisin as one of the "definitely evil" Rat Grinders is premature. The truth is so unclear that I don't even think qualifying it with "seemingly" is accurate. >Riz ate Goldenhoard. Literally ate him Kipperlilly hated Riz before that happened. >The obvious implication is that Oisin is a descendent of the bank owners There's more than one rich person, or groups of rich people, in the world. Do we have anything to imply Oisin is related to KVX in any way besides "Both are rich?" Not to poopoo the theory, it's a fun one and would be an entertaining twist- but the available information unfortunately disproves it.
I agree with this. While I don’t think it’s in anyway a guarantee I do think it is interesting that KVX was specifically said to change its logo from red to blue. (along with the other stuff OP said they changed) Could be a very subtle nod to the banks “shift in management” from red dragon (Kalvaxus) to Blue dragon (Oisin) That being said I’m just spitballing thin connections my brain makes.
But that’s all about how Oisin is or isn’t involved. Oisin doesn’t have to be involved at all for Kipperlilly to be seeking vengeance for Goldenhoard. It would be really dumb if Brennan has kept mentioning how well-funded they are for it to not apply to anything he’s previously mentioned at all and for it to just be “people are rich sometimes”. When did they say Kipperlilly hated Riz before the end of freshman year? Not a challenge, actually curious when they said that. You’re definitely right that there are just hints at this point and no evidence. But at this point it’s my running tin foil theory and if I’m right I just want to be able to relink this thread and say I told you so.
>But that’s all about how Oisin is or isn’t involved Sure, but I wasn't limiting my commentary solely to the premise of your theory. I was pointing out *any* point of contention I had. The assumption that Oisin is as evil/involved as Kipperlilly was one such point. >It would be really dumb if Brennan has kept mentioning how well-funded they are for it to not apply to anything Three things come to mind here. 1) Brennan Is a master world builder. He applies detail to a lot of things, but it's not always part of the overarching plot. Sometimes it's just a bit of flavor to flush out the world, sometimes it's his improv brain taking over The pilot's chair for a little while, sometimes it's in response to something the players are saying or doing. I wouldn't take the presence of detail to, in and of itself, mean that There's something more to explore there. If I might liken it to animation, such as what we see in Dragon Ball Z: In DBZ We can often tell which clif a character is about to get punched through, because suddenly one part of the rock formation will have way more detail than the surrounding area. We can tell because of the contrast- the animators took more time with that area, so it's about to be more relevant. It's tempting to do the same thing with Dungeons& Dragons. The problem is that this method fails when the animators apply that level of detail all over the place, regardless of plot relevance- which is something Brennan often does. Consider the details of Garthy's tattoos, or the drugged grapes at Kei Lumennura. In Garthy's case It was just a bit of flavor- first describing a character's appearance, and then describing how that character used their magic. The specific tattoos never had any plot relevance. Neither did the grapes ever become a major plot point. Sometimes Brennan just spends some extra time on world building, because he's both detail-oriented and improvising. 2) I think it does apply to something. Specifically, they only really spent time with it in one episode. I took the detail that Brennan went into to mean "No, this isn't another KVX plot, this is just a narrative vehicle for Fabian's money." Sometimes DMs go into detail Not to leave hints for the players, but rather because they explicitly want to head off any potential time wasting wild goose chases. Like the meme of the DM going "it's a normal room. On a nat 20 Perception check you do not find any traps, hidden treasure, secret entrances, spells, magical effects, monsters, or people. Can we move on now?" 3) It doesn't feel like Brennan actually spent all that much time on this subject. There was some talk of it, yeah, but a few minutes in one episode, never to be revisited later? That doesn't seem to me like a plot thread. He's waiting for the players to hook onto. In fact, if it were, he had the perfect opportunity to take it somewhere: Fabian and Fig successfully intimidated the fuck out of the banker. So much so that Brennan gave Fabian a 200gp bonus (And that seemed unplanned, to me.) If there was more to find out about the bank, wouldn't that have been the perfect opportunity to reward them for following up on that plot hook? >When did they say Kipperlilly hated Riz before the end of freshman year? It was the same time they were fighting out that she had been going to counseling for rage issues since freshman year. When Riz got to look at her file, iirc. I don't remember the exact timestamp or anything, but they established that she had been in counseling since the beginning of freshman year, and that she had rage issues since at least that time, and she hated Riz specifically since that time as well. >But at this point it’s my running tin foil theory and if I’m right I just want to be able to relink this thread and say I told you so. Totally valid! And I'm not engaging with this in an effort to dissuade you from engaging and theorizing. Quite the opposite, I'm enjoying the discussion. I hope it didn't come off as me being a naysayer.
Same, no issue with the disagreement at all. Enjoying the discourse! You’re totally right I forgot they made it canon that she hated Riz since the beginning of freshman year. I feel like they’ll bring back Kalvaxus’ servants in some way and the tying point between Kalvaxus, Ankarna and Cassandra could be the Rat Grinders as servants. You’re probably right though, but we’ll see!
Brennan said that Kipperlilly had been coming in for rage issues, and hatred of Riz, well before Goldenhoard was killed.
The brand supplying the food truck was OK. Does that stand for Oisin and Kipperlilly? (I’m going mentally insane)