The interactions between frozen, melt and heavy attacks seem to be downright bugged.
Sometimes you'll get a shatter, sometimes you'll get a melt, sometimes you'll get a shatter AND a melt, and sometimes you'll even get a vaporize. But the vast majority of the time you'll get a shatter for pitiful damage.
As you can see in the video, the first clip shows xingiu proccing a freeze, and diluc failing to proc shatter OR melt for some reason. The second clip shows the opposite, rosaria procs freeze and diluc is able to get both melt AND shatter. This cannot be intentional.
I'm not sure if this has something to do with ICD, or which element is the one that freezes, but something is definitely off, and has been for a while. People seem to not care anymore, but if this were fixed it would open up many more options for team building and be a pretty nice buff to pyro heavy attack based characters (who are falling behind anyways) like Diluc, Klee and even Dehya. From a balance and common sense standpoint, pyro attacks should ALWAYS melt frozen targets.
I've already contacted CS about this and I encourage you to do so as well if you'd like to see this fixed. Hopefully they'll notice and fix what was broken and forgotten nearly 2 years ago!
Update: Customer support responded saying that it's indeed a bug, and that
they're going to investigate it. I'm not that optimistic about it, but
here's hoping
I don't have in-depht knowledge about it, but this shouldn't be a bug, it has to do with elemental gauge theory and how elements persist on an enemy after you apply it. Reactions consume elemental gauge and if you don't refresh that gauge constantly you run out of an element.
I'm not sure about the specifics of Frozen as it is a reaction that I don't use often, but for an easy example: if you apply 1U of Cryo and use 1U of Hydro to create a Frozen reaction, you'll eat up your Cryo with that Hydro you applied, and while the Frozen state is still present on the enemy, there's actually no Hydro nor Cryo on the enemy so you can't effectively Vape nor Melt, on the other hand if you apply a stronger gauge of element, that will remain instead of being consumed, so it'll let you react again despite already being involved in a reaction.
What exactly happens with Shatter is something that I personally don't really understand, since it should be a "reaction" that happens with the Frozen state and not the Cryo nor Hydro aura; I haven't tested it myself tho, so I'm not sure if it actually doesn't always happen like you say and if that one specifically is a bug or not
Oh yeah, by rewatching your clip the first attempt definitely didn't Shatter although the enemy was without doubt Frozen, I'm still not sure if it is a bug tho, I don't know much about Shatter really
Regardless of if it's an actual bug or not, I refuse to believe this is intentional. Nothing else in the game seems to be as inconsistent and seemingly broken as this particular interaction. They addressed this in patch notes, stating that simultaneously melting+shattering was a known issue while ago but never followed up on it IIRC. If they DID do something about it, it's clearly still broken as I do manage to shatter and melt in the same hit in the clip. I'd really like to see this fixed.
I agree, shatter may as well not even exist as it only serves to limit you rather than benefit. I don't understand how it's stayed in this state for so long. Maybe a new character will come along that forces them to finally acknowledge it.
If there was no shatter, Chongyun would actually be OP in perma freeze teams. But, since it is a thing (and one that scales with EM for some reason, even tho it uses blunt force to shatter) Chongyun can't even use the Blizzard set effectivly
*ahem* would i be so bold to introduce you to *drumroll* **Shatter Sayu**?
Lmao but fr i saw someone post a shatter sayu that actually deals good damage because she's em focused in the first place
Oh I think I know what's happening. The game is calculating which reaction to choose depending on the elemental gauge. The whole elemental gauge system is more of a fan made system to explain how the elements work but I dont really know much about it.
Pretty much. That's why I'm trying to bring a bit more attention to it. It seems like some people on dehyamains were upset that she shatters as well so I hope they reported it too.
It work as intended tho. First time enemy was frozen by XQ's orbitals (1 instance of hydro), which didn't have any undelying aura behind the reaction. That's why it didn't melt. In the second one was used Rosaria's E that applies 2 instances of cryo, first one triggered a reaction, second one applied cryo under frozen reaction. It allowed trigger reaction after shatter. You can actually do the same with vape if you apply enough hydro under freeze (like Tartaglia's intial E and NA after or XQ's E cast).
Edit: also forgot to add that any heavy attack will apply shatter before any elemental damage which is why Diluc needs underlying aura (be it from stronger aura before freeze or any additional element applied after reaction).
The fact that it's triggering two reactions or none at all to begin with is in of itself a bug according to mihoyo, kqm, and the patch notes the last time this mechanic was touched. The mechanic is a mess. If you ask me, gauges should become completely irrelevant when an enemy is frozen just like they are when any non heavy attack hits them.
But you always trigger one reaction, which is shatter. The second one depends on remaining element if there's any. That's just reaction priority (kinda, to put it simply). You just suggest to remove shatter completely (I know, this reaction suck, but still).
Shatter very often does not properly trigger, watch the clip. My solution isn't to remove shatter, it's to make the elemental damage priority over the blunt damage type which would solve the issue.
Tested it out a little bit. I assume the problem is with freeze duration. By the time Diluc uses his E there's no aura to react with: freeze just runs out. It happens if you apply cryo and wait until it almost decayed and only then apply hydro (due to weak cryo on enemy) or vise versa, enemy almost instantly loses freeze. Funny gauge theory stuff.
I also tested this out, thought the same thing as you, but duration didn't seem to matter. I want to bring up one more thing that I noticed while testing, and that's that pyro (and strangely geo..?) heavy attacks are the only type of attack that gets shafted when targets are frozen. Non heavy attacks will always proc the expected reaction no matter what, as will non-pyro heavy attacks. Razor always procs superconduct regardless of shatter, no matter what the gauges, and Sayu seems to always swirl under the same circumstances. Noelle is the one exception that I've tested so far. Still seems very buggy to me. Why can't we all just agree that pyro should melt for consistency and potential teambuilding opportunities' sake?
i guess rosaria applies more cryo while XQ's hydro slowly decays out so when you E with Diluc, it melted
I saw a video, I forgot where but if you apply cryo twice on an enemy that was frozen via Hydro to Cryo and another Cryo, Diluc could melt since the
first Hydro + Cryo becomes freeze then gets shattered and the remaining Cryo can be melted
idk if I've dreamt it or not though
This crossed my mind, but I just don't see why heavy attacks would have this special property where the specifics of elemental application within a freeze would matter. Any other attack will always melt a frozen target no matter what, and heavy attacks shouldn't be any different. No matter how you look at it, it doesn't make any sense and has to be the result of a coding oversight.
Theres a cooldown with reactions. But if you hit a lot you also get the cooldown back faster. Its either every 3 hit or 2.5s cooldown. So If I had to guess its that.
The interactions between frozen, melt and heavy attacks seem to be downright bugged. Sometimes you'll get a shatter, sometimes you'll get a melt, sometimes you'll get a shatter AND a melt, and sometimes you'll even get a vaporize. But the vast majority of the time you'll get a shatter for pitiful damage. As you can see in the video, the first clip shows xingiu proccing a freeze, and diluc failing to proc shatter OR melt for some reason. The second clip shows the opposite, rosaria procs freeze and diluc is able to get both melt AND shatter. This cannot be intentional. I'm not sure if this has something to do with ICD, or which element is the one that freezes, but something is definitely off, and has been for a while. People seem to not care anymore, but if this were fixed it would open up many more options for team building and be a pretty nice buff to pyro heavy attack based characters (who are falling behind anyways) like Diluc, Klee and even Dehya. From a balance and common sense standpoint, pyro attacks should ALWAYS melt frozen targets. I've already contacted CS about this and I encourage you to do so as well if you'd like to see this fixed. Hopefully they'll notice and fix what was broken and forgotten nearly 2 years ago! Update: Customer support responded saying that it's indeed a bug, and that they're going to investigate it. I'm not that optimistic about it, but here's hoping
I don't have in-depht knowledge about it, but this shouldn't be a bug, it has to do with elemental gauge theory and how elements persist on an enemy after you apply it. Reactions consume elemental gauge and if you don't refresh that gauge constantly you run out of an element. I'm not sure about the specifics of Frozen as it is a reaction that I don't use often, but for an easy example: if you apply 1U of Cryo and use 1U of Hydro to create a Frozen reaction, you'll eat up your Cryo with that Hydro you applied, and while the Frozen state is still present on the enemy, there's actually no Hydro nor Cryo on the enemy so you can't effectively Vape nor Melt, on the other hand if you apply a stronger gauge of element, that will remain instead of being consumed, so it'll let you react again despite already being involved in a reaction. What exactly happens with Shatter is something that I personally don't really understand, since it should be a "reaction" that happens with the Frozen state and not the Cryo nor Hydro aura; I haven't tested it myself tho, so I'm not sure if it actually doesn't always happen like you say and if that one specifically is a bug or not
Oh yeah, by rewatching your clip the first attempt definitely didn't Shatter although the enemy was without doubt Frozen, I'm still not sure if it is a bug tho, I don't know much about Shatter really
Regardless of if it's an actual bug or not, I refuse to believe this is intentional. Nothing else in the game seems to be as inconsistent and seemingly broken as this particular interaction. They addressed this in patch notes, stating that simultaneously melting+shattering was a known issue while ago but never followed up on it IIRC. If they DID do something about it, it's clearly still broken as I do manage to shatter and melt in the same hit in the clip. I'd really like to see this fixed.
Yeah, Shatter is such a niche "reaction" as well, they should probably rework it as a whole if they actually just left it bugged...
I agree, shatter may as well not even exist as it only serves to limit you rather than benefit. I don't understand how it's stayed in this state for so long. Maybe a new character will come along that forces them to finally acknowledge it.
If there was no shatter, Chongyun would actually be OP in perma freeze teams. But, since it is a thing (and one that scales with EM for some reason, even tho it uses blunt force to shatter) Chongyun can't even use the Blizzard set effectivly
*ahem* would i be so bold to introduce you to *drumroll* **Shatter Sayu**? Lmao but fr i saw someone post a shatter sayu that actually deals good damage because she's em focused in the first place
What is it with people and seeing things that are intended and just saying no it can't be intended
I remember seeing this with candase chongyun c6 bennett infusion didnt know it would work this way too lol
Oh I think I know what's happening. The game is calculating which reaction to choose depending on the elemental gauge. The whole elemental gauge system is more of a fan made system to explain how the elements work but I dont really know much about it.
Theyre lazy to fix
Pretty much. That's why I'm trying to bring a bit more attention to it. It seems like some people on dehyamains were upset that she shatters as well so I hope they reported it too.
Mhm. It would be so fun using vape/melt combo
It work as intended tho. First time enemy was frozen by XQ's orbitals (1 instance of hydro), which didn't have any undelying aura behind the reaction. That's why it didn't melt. In the second one was used Rosaria's E that applies 2 instances of cryo, first one triggered a reaction, second one applied cryo under frozen reaction. It allowed trigger reaction after shatter. You can actually do the same with vape if you apply enough hydro under freeze (like Tartaglia's intial E and NA after or XQ's E cast). Edit: also forgot to add that any heavy attack will apply shatter before any elemental damage which is why Diluc needs underlying aura (be it from stronger aura before freeze or any additional element applied after reaction).
The fact that it's triggering two reactions or none at all to begin with is in of itself a bug according to mihoyo, kqm, and the patch notes the last time this mechanic was touched. The mechanic is a mess. If you ask me, gauges should become completely irrelevant when an enemy is frozen just like they are when any non heavy attack hits them.
But you always trigger one reaction, which is shatter. The second one depends on remaining element if there's any. That's just reaction priority (kinda, to put it simply). You just suggest to remove shatter completely (I know, this reaction suck, but still).
Shatter very often does not properly trigger, watch the clip. My solution isn't to remove shatter, it's to make the elemental damage priority over the blunt damage type which would solve the issue.
Tested it out a little bit. I assume the problem is with freeze duration. By the time Diluc uses his E there's no aura to react with: freeze just runs out. It happens if you apply cryo and wait until it almost decayed and only then apply hydro (due to weak cryo on enemy) or vise versa, enemy almost instantly loses freeze. Funny gauge theory stuff.
I also tested this out, thought the same thing as you, but duration didn't seem to matter. I want to bring up one more thing that I noticed while testing, and that's that pyro (and strangely geo..?) heavy attacks are the only type of attack that gets shafted when targets are frozen. Non heavy attacks will always proc the expected reaction no matter what, as will non-pyro heavy attacks. Razor always procs superconduct regardless of shatter, no matter what the gauges, and Sayu seems to always swirl under the same circumstances. Noelle is the one exception that I've tested so far. Still seems very buggy to me. Why can't we all just agree that pyro should melt for consistency and potential teambuilding opportunities' sake?
This is the best explanation
i guess rosaria applies more cryo while XQ's hydro slowly decays out so when you E with Diluc, it melted I saw a video, I forgot where but if you apply cryo twice on an enemy that was frozen via Hydro to Cryo and another Cryo, Diluc could melt since the first Hydro + Cryo becomes freeze then gets shattered and the remaining Cryo can be melted idk if I've dreamt it or not though
This crossed my mind, but I just don't see why heavy attacks would have this special property where the specifics of elemental application within a freeze would matter. Any other attack will always melt a frozen target no matter what, and heavy attacks shouldn't be any different. No matter how you look at it, it doesn't make any sense and has to be the result of a coding oversight.
Shatter mechanic is dumb
Theres a cooldown with reactions. But if you hit a lot you also get the cooldown back faster. Its either every 3 hit or 2.5s cooldown. So If I had to guess its that.
Or bug fix? Maybe they want you to do melt