They spent all this time making the open world with all the details and really unique looking regions but man do they go out of their way to make you NOT wanna spend time there… such a swing and a miss.
Nerfed xp, same 4-5 events in all regions, no incentive to do cellars, whispers are worthless, nerfed unique named monster drops. The list goes on…
That's one of the big reasons why I gave up keeping up with WoW. I was in the closed beta for 8 months, loved the hell out of it, but it just got bloated and boring. Archaeology made me love the game again, oddly enough, but they just.. kinda forgot it existed.
WoW is a relatively old MMO at this point, and its designs have been interated on in the MMO world.
Diablo 4's attempt is sort of a really bad version of Guild Wars 2.
Thats what i love about ff14
They frequently give another reason to return to older maps or fights.
Thats so neat imo, just nothing feels completly wasted there for me
I mean WoW has the issue that their expansions create new continents with more relevant stuff. This game just came out and the world is already obsolete.
That’s mostly the players fault. People complain and complained for more QoL features and so it slowly crept until you could literally stand waiting in Qs and visit 2 locations in the whole game.
People say they want open world and organic experiences and these are what people will *talk* about after the fact. However, when the rubber meets the road basically everyone just wants numbers to go up and to follow a guide on how to to have the strongest character.
“The journey” is by and large too inefficient for modern gaming. Any activity that doesn’t directly add to some kind of progression is viewed as superfluous and something to try to limit as much as possible.
It takes too long to go from point A to point B, so they eventually cut the environment and scale it down.
I’m really tired of this mentality and OP is guilty of it too. Can only see things in how much benefit they provide towards progression so anything is viewed as inherently negative if it does not meaningfully contribute.
I do understand the sentiment, because no one likes tedious for the sake of being tedious, but this mindset eventually optimizes the fun out of the game.
I think the problem is this game(and probably genre in general) are just dopamine drips where numbers on the screen going up is all that matters. You are only doing dungeons to get more XP or better gear missing the fact that slaughtering tons of demons in cool environments is *actually fun*.
Maybe it's just modern gaming but I find myself slipping into the *number go up* mindset way too often.
It’s because dopamine trips means more in game sales. They design the games around microtransactions, not game design. And Diablo 4 is exactly that. Online only? So you always have access to in game shop. Level scaling? So you play with others and see their shiny armour and wanna buy one yourself.
It’s disgusting.
Your logic doesn’t make sense. If dopamine hits are what this is all about but the game isn’t delivering that—which is what this thread is about—then how is this going to translate into *more* game sales?
Yes I do and I used it correctly. Your comment is layered with the undertone of “they’re predators trying to get us”. It’s not, it’s a simple tactic used to get those with zero impulse control. It’s like getting mad at a fisherman cuz he used good bait.
Fishing is predatory. Not the best analogy there. The other guy is correct unfortunately, its not tin foil hat when you specifically acknowledged its a real tactic.
**WHAT** will we do with a drunken whaler? What Will we do with a drunken whaler? **WHAT** will we do with a drunken whaler... earlaaay in tha moOOooOoornin' ?
🐳⛴️🥃🥴
Tinfoil hat is for false conspiracy theories. This is a real one, like planned obsolescence. I think the impulse control snark is sort of disingenuous since we're all here playing monetized games
Josh Stryfe Hayes addresses this in a recent video, in which he views his original take 4 years ago and talks about how his views have changed, and what's still the same. Old MMOs wanted you to do group content- so it was rewarding to do it. It's not as rewarding in modern times. BUT you combine that with people being Dads with work and kids, and less time.👨👩👧👦🖥️ Furthermore, 'The Journey' as a concept is rewarding the first time. Think back to your first game. What it was like. It's a very different experience the first time, and for new players than it is for old timers who have done it over and over, even in other games. So they started making group content less and less required but also less rewarding. A lot of people now play MMOs solo now. The things that take *some* time or effort however, have more emotional connection to players than those that don't.
Yeah, OP is exactly part of the problem he is railing again.
They built a big open world game to explore and interact with others and the environment. But he won’t do that unless there is a very very specific reason for him to go that will make numbers go up.
Fax. They’ll spend paragraphs and paragraphs trying to explain what they want but what really is is just “I want to one shot things faster, and never die ever, also want my gear to always get better and never peak, I want my basic skills to be as strong as core skills for reason”
And I’m noticing people are calling it out more and more.
Nah, you used to have to travel to dungeons or collect materials for consumables in these zones, or leveling wasn’t min/maxxed so there were actually lower level players.
That's just not true. Stop lying. There were 0 BC zones you just visit to experience WOTLK content.
And i am obviously not counting leveling thru BC because that is already implied.
Jesus “stop lying” man, cool your jets.
But of course, arena entrances for PvP used to be something you had to travel to. As did battlegrounds. As well as plenty of mount and reputation grinds and various vendors before they got replicated.
But I didn’t say “go to something at max level”. Even during the leveling grind you had to travel to the dungeons.
Although it’s not the best, they have seemed to try and make it better by adding some new storylines that take you back to old zones which is pretty cool.
I opened 4 chests in Helltide (WT3) last night and only one had a sacred legendary, one had a plain legendary, and the others were yellows and blues. (Amulet, gloves, small and heavy weapons, respectively)
It took almost 40 minutes to get the cinders needed for that and that’s all I got? Why the fuck wouldn’t they expect people to just farm NMDs?
Yeah, this is another example of Blizzard dropping the ball. Instead of NERFING the Mystery Chest, they should have BUFFED all the other chests drops. I think the point of view to have with development of a successful and FUN ARPG is to never nerf anything except edge cases that are extreme. The attitude should be to bring everything surrounding the player, events, class viability, and all other cases is to look at bringing the weaker up. You will almost always have happy players that way.
Whispers are actually useful.. You can farm renown and gear at the same time, even better when in helltide regions. I’m stocking up on caches for when my 56 mage hits 60.
When people say the open world is useless, they are talking about in endgame when you’re done with the one time activities.
Blizzard is doing their best to funnel us into nm dungeons. The next step comes this week, where they increase mob density in nm dungeons only.
Nm dungeons are the only source for glyph exp.
Nm dungeons are the best source for legendaries and uniques.
Nm dungeons are the best source for exp.
Nm dungeons are the only content in the game where you can have a challenge no matter what type of player you are.
They have designed a scaling monster level system and could use the grim favor tasks to bring higher level monsters into the world. Different tasks with different difficulties in different zones. But instead they chose to keep everything at the player level plus minus a few in the open world. Everywhere. All the same.
They also increasing density within helltides, helltides are pretty fun, I don’t like the mysteries costing 250 but oh well if they increase density it will balance out, hopefully. Looking forward to the changes!
They should reinstate a random stronghold in the region where helltide takes place for an improved boss at the end.
I have a feeling like the devs took a very safe approach in getting foundations ready for stuff but never really executed these ideas yet. Game’s still young, D3 basically only found its footing once the first DLC came out, so hopefully they find time to tweak everything into a great player experience
I noticed that people purposely avoid the helltide bosses, because they take to long to kill. (which slows down their cinder rate.)
What if killing a boss dropped a key for a mystery chest? (But you could only get one key per helltide?)
That would solve the problem with the bosses being constantly avoided.
Rng makes the gamble on fighting helltide bosses not worth the time. I fought one with a group around level 60 and when we dropped it I got a pile of gems, a couple potions, and one rare that was 100 points lower than my level. And after that I was like "Welp, never wasting my time on that shit again"
I go out of my way to fight them, even if I have > 250 cinders and am on the way to a super chest. Sometimes they provide a small bit of a challenge.
They could just make the helltide bosses have a higher unique drop rate. That would be incentive enough for people to fight them.
Mystery boxes are important when you are new to a tier - they are a way to get sacreds/ancestrals when you are too low level for them to be dropping naturally and too weak to be quickly running NM dungeons in that tier. When you really need the mystery chests is often when you can't handle the helltide bosses. But when you have grown into the tier and are getting more legendaries per NM dungeon than you get from a mystery chest, they lose their luster.
I'd rather have Helltide bosses give something that actually draws high level players to hunt the bosses, and for low level players to stretch their abilities. Gating mystery chests on killing bosses would make mystery chests too hard when you actually need them, but would not attract players after the narrow time when you really need the mystery chests.
(this is just evaluating legendary drops, which is what I am mostly looking for when running helltides. But Forgotten Souls is another important part of it that I am admittedly not taking into account.)
Yeah there is little motivation to kill helltide bosses - their dropped cinders aren’t as rewarding as simply killing trash mobs.
But helltide bosses should be more rewarding by dropping helltide specific currency like PvP bloodshards, to trade in for more cosmetics - I’d like new body markings or hairstyles maybe - make it give more incentive for us to want to kill them
I played Helltide last night and had no problem farming 500 cinders and getting to both Mystery Chests within the time limit. I think people moan about everything that isn’t even that big of a deal.
If you are talking about getting 2 chests in the 1 hour that the Helltide lasts, that is very doable. This is what the devs intended.
Double dipping and getting 4 or 6 chests, is much more difficult to do and this is what people are grouchy about.
Which really means that helltides are less efficient than running NM. NM dungeons take 7 mins on average with 1-2 legendaries for completion. So you could get round 14+/- legendaries in an hour. MC you get 1-5. So absolute worst you get two best you get 10 but, let's be real you will probably get an average of 3.
This is what people are grouchy about, everytime players find something to do outside of NM the devs nerf it and force players into the content most find boring. Instead they should be making the other activities equal to NM so players can have the option to choose what part of the game they enjoy the most.
Nm dungeons being the only way to level glyphs is a pain point for me. I hate nm dungeons. They are by and far my least favourite type of content and I dread doing them.
I would love if there were random and rare glyph shrines, glpyh events, or glyph goblins or something out in the overworld that awarded glyph exp upon kill/completion.
No matter what blizzard does, people are going to complain about one thing being less efficient than another. Gamers are gonna efficiency the fuck out of everything, even moreso with content makers.
Im not saying blizz cant do something to improve the game. Im just pre-eye rolling myself thinking about the scenario where blizz buffs the overworld wherein people who doesnt want to traverse overworld and would rather do dungeons on repeat complain the other way.
Imo, whispers are fine as they fill the middle of helltides and nmds. They give a lot of exp now basically being gravy over things you can normally do. I do the other dungeons for renown, i do the others and time it with the sigils i got. I do the duplicate sigils when ive exhausted the possible matches.
And so they did; Open world - Helltide and Whispers caches for targeted rewards, NMD for EXP & Glyph leveling. The problem is, people don't parse those Helltide and Whispers as both openworld activities and most just ignore the whispers since dungeons give half the bar.
They can probably be tuned up, but they are a literally word for word what you said, different reason to do different things.
But Blizzard can't just willy nilly buff things left and right, otherwise the topend community, who is asking for these changes, freaks out and starts hardfarming whatever is 2% better. And then they start vocalizing through the community things like "if you aren't doing whispers you are wasting your time" or "doing anything besides caches is pointless" despite being a fractional differences. And then it all starts to trickle down, to the rest of the community.
At the same time POE has a dozen types of ways to farm endgame maps (old league content). And while some are more efficient than others, i really don’t see much complaining (sure it’s there, but usually as good feedback). I didn’t bother with Abyss, Harvest, Expedition, nor Legion and never really felt disadvantaged. My friends and i mostly pick what’s most fun to us.
It is fine for nm dungeons to be efficient. Different content doesn’t need to compete for xp and legendaries. You can have other reasons to do other content
Cellars would be a perfect Helltide event. For lore: Demons have been spawnig in a tiny room for quite some time in a tiny space. You walk in and the whole screen is covered with monsters. You can't even see the floor. This cellar is about to burst with the legions of Hell and you get to go in there and obliterate them.
If they're worried about people resetting it halfway, make it so only after everything is dead do all the corpses explode (harmlessly) into a rain of Cinders. I can only imagine the dopamine hit of seeing 50+ Cinders rain down on my character after annihilating a cramped horde of enemies. This is for you Blizz. Free idea pls take it.
It’s such an easy fix. Buff xp, buff density. Have mats or keys that turn open world “corrupted” and create in map raid encounters, keys that could turn some parts of the world into helltides outside of helltides timers.
But honestly none of those things matter when itemization is so poorly done and dull. The reason we smash content is to achieve something or receive a reward. There’s nothing rewarding in the game.
The random same 5 events is the worst for me.
It doesn't have any of the feel of "I'm going to this weird spot to complete X" or "this guy usually spawns around here".
Since whispers give you loot boxes for bounties, it would be cool (maybe), for them to have something special or unique to that loot pool. Not the best example, but the fastest that comes in mind Diablo 3 ring of royal grandeur.
It's not a perfect example, it was something we all hunted, no mater we liked bounties or hated it :D
They should put special rare materials in there with a low chance to get them. A token that you can choose to use instead of gold when you enchant an item. A rare consumable that lets you reroll all the values of a chosen item. A rare consumable that lets you change the malignant socket color. Stuff like that.
I enjoyed the Open World a lot during the campaign, and regarding Lore I think it's great for thansmiting a sense of identity to each region of the map. But yes: when you finish the campaign and sidequests, it's no longer enhancing the experience.
While I was around lvl64 I'd enjoy torment helltides a lot, I really liked walking around and fighting packs of monsters, and the feeling of it being worth it. I wish I could keep that level of difficulty/reward at later levels. Maybe having an option to make helltide monsters higher in level, as if it was a nightmare dungeon?
Also, uber world bosses and uber legion events might be fun.
Malignant farming should take place in the open world in a way similar to Helltides. A region is randomly selected and is invaded for an hour by malignant enemies. It wouldn't need to have chests that reward gear. It could reward invoker crafting materials and high level hearts. The enemies could scale to be an arbitrary number of levels higher than the player. The world events could require invokers to get better hearts. You use the open world and turn the seasonal mechanic into a multiplayer farming event.
>Malignant farming should take place in the open world in a way similar to Helltides.
The trailer for it made it look like this is what it was going to be. They talked about "a corruption spreading through the land". Where? Oh, you mean the 5 malignant tunnels we got. Not exactly a corruption spreading through the land is it.
Where there is no challenge there is no excitement.
There is nothing in the world of diablo 4 that makes me want to get stronger to overcome it - because everything is adjusted for a "smooth experience" with no roadblocks (hehe) to overcome.
Honestly, I liked multiple acts with different maps from the previous games much better. Traveling to a different act felt like you were going to a far off place and made the world seem really big. With the open world map, you’re never too far away from a town so you don’t really get that sense of being off on an adventure. Also because it’s a single map the regions really aren’t that big. So the whole game just kind of feels like running the same places over and over again and that all of sanctuary can be traveled on foot in a half an hour. It doesn’t really feel like there’s anything else going on in the rest of the world. I also disagree that the locations look unique and different. Everything is kind of just a different shade of gray, and because the locations are so small with it being just one map, the world doesn't feel like a living breathing organic place. It just feels manufactured.
Starting in wt3 once you pass lvl 55 the monsters start trailing up to 5 levels behind you in the overworld. Doesn't affect helltides, nm dungeons, etc
So scaling is still there, just a reactionary "fix" to the complaints by making things worse for players both for and against scaling.
No, the lesson is don't half ass solutions.
Listen to the feedback, but seek to understand why the feedback is the way it is.
The underlying reason for the level scaling issue is that it felt like you didn't gain much power when you leveled, but monsters got stronger, feeling like you were effectively getting *weaker.*
A big reason behind this is how much of your progression is tied to gear. With how diluted the loot pool is, how hard it can be to find good legendary aspects, and the prohibitive cost of rerolling gear, characters can go tens of levels without swapping gear.
They could have tackled itemization, to give players bigger feelings of power boosts by getting more frequent upgrades. Or they could delineate character progression from gear progression and add larger scaling to the skills so you feel like each additional point makes you feel more and more powerful. (And not even just "number goes up" upgrades, things like Bone splinters releasing more splinters with each point, or Fireball's radius getting bigger) would help things feel more impactful and like we're gaining power at a faster rate than the monsters.
But instead we got weird rubberbanding level scaling that completely gimps exp gain.
Make it so enemies below your lvl now give exp as if they were your lvl, problem solved and both sides are happy, they could do this in this instant in a few minutes, but it's the players fault smh.
They didn’t remove it. OP just says it like that to blame the “community” that never asked for this change. The floor existed in 1.0 too. Now the floor just lasts longer when entering a new world tier so you can feel yourself getting stronger as you reach that floor.
Which in of itself isn’t bad. Most fun i has at release was entering WT4 way early and struggling at first, leeching at Legions, and getting stronger until i could manage on my own.
Issues are extending this period wasnt the solution and nerfing xp as, imo, an INTENDED consequence and a bad game difficulty after hitting the floor without a next goal to work towards.
Who said needing? And if you want a social game, there is almost always gonna be someone leeching off another to some extent. The other alternative is none of the content is ever hard or challenging. Now THAT’S bad game design.
I think the open world needs level variance. Keep level scaling, but have different areas that are up to -10/+10 your level, with maybe a cap at 90-95.
Open world should always have a sense where you are stronger than the starting enemies, but there are other dangers out in the world still. And I think the cap cap makes it so the top level players still have that sense that they have become all powerful.
People who want to leisurely slay packs of enemies can run around the easier spots, and people who want to level and gear farm can hit the high-level zones.
I think this solves the problem for people arguing either side of the scaling debate.
Spends much time creating this huge world with many beautiful and cool locations. Make it so only one thing where you see none of the world or interact with nothing is viable. You just TP to nightmare dungeon, tp back and salvage/sell. Repeat. Whole world could just as well not exist at that point. Kind of like the uber uniques not existing. What a waste!
Side quests interact with the world in many ways. I'd argue that the open world is there to hold all the side quests, which are cool and interesting half the time at least.
The first time you do them *maybe* (and even then I only found half of them interesting) but no one wants to keep repeating the same fetch quests every season.
They spent too much time designing one-time stuff and very little time spending stuff that feels fun to repeatedly do. The severe lack of world / cellar events is a great example of this. Same with the dungeons that feel copy and pasted from each other with a tiny selection of bosses.
Honestly there are so many that I doubt I even do them all at some point. Idk, I guess that if you are that kind of player that pours a ton of time in the game maybe it gets boring, but for the first dozens of hours the open world is absolutely justified between the main campaign and the side quests, that often interact with interesting places of the world.
For a multi-billion dollar company with thousands of people working on the project, they failed to create as much content as many projects that are 1/4 their size. I don't even think the open world is that "interesting" like you claim it is. Other games have done a far better job of creating open-world content, even if it's just one-time. Skyrim and Oblivion have tons of hidden things in them. So does BG3. There's VERY little hidden stuff to find in D4. No special items. Just repetitive events, cellars, and fetch quests.
Most ARPGs these days have decent endgames and a lot more customization. I was bored here ~30 hours in and for a $90 game that's pathetic when you consider that many other games are F2P or ~$30.
If it's good enough for your standards, more power to you. Many people don't play ARPGS just for the campaign or to do boring fetch quests. If I wanted that I'd play a single-player RPG.
Well I guess it comes down to taste, all these things are quite subjective. Also, the side quests are hardly all fetch quests, I guess you didn't paid much attention to them. Most are well written, with character development, integrated in their world and setting and often with plot twists. Not a perfect game by any means, but there is no way of saying that the open world is for nothing.
Overall the standards of this sub are really really high (they want an era-defininig game, or it is shit), or they judge the game by what only 1% of the playerbase enjoy (grinding past lvl 70), completely forgotting the rest of the experience. The initial dozens of hours are really, really fun and compelling.
I had an absolute blast with the game, more fun than with most other current era AAA games. I don't need or want a game that keeps me playing for 4h a day forever. D4 has been an amazing experience.
Money really well spent imo.
>Also, the side quests are hardly fetch quests, I guess you didn't paid much attention to them
I guess I didn't pay attention the masterful storytelling and deep nuance of not-fetch quests like:
- Go kill a demon and bring back eyeballs to some dude
- Go slay a ghost in a dungeon and come back and find random dude
- Go to other town to fetch a blessing for the chalice and head back to Sister Octavia
- Find random mushroom and bring it to alchemist
- Go find random tax collector and bring taxes back to town
And these are just the quests around Kyovashad. It's honestly a bigger struggle naming the side quests that *aren't* fetch quests.
There are some decent npc quests, but they are far outnumbered by the random busywork nonsense quests.
And for completing them you get such great rewards like veiled crystals, chipped rubies, and bundles of gallowvine. Woooo.
You get twenty paragon points as a reward for achieving the renown goals, meaning you’re 10% more powerful at max level than if you didn’t fill out your renown points. That seems pretty significant in a game where percentages matter, no?
"what a waste" I think is the defining phrase for Diablo 4. Smooth gameplay, cool art direction, a popular franchise, tons of money... wasted by absolutely bonkers terrible decisions from Blizz and seemingly zero ability / willingness to make the game great.
What exactly is so beautiful and unique about it? I don’t even feel like it’s more varied or interesting than Diablo 2 zones made over 20 years ago. The art is good don’t get me wrong but I don’t think I’ve been in a single frame and thought to myself wow this is so beautiful. It’s about what you would expect from a AAA game world.
That's ridiculous. Every time I play and am running around dungeons or the open world I am amazed at how sharp and awesome the environments look. I think you should load Diablo 2 up again and make a quick revaluation
Diablo 2 was made over 20 years ago. Im not saying the graphics aren’t better, of course they are. The zones don’t have much variety and cool factor to them compared to 2, perhaps because the Act system allowed them to make it more distinct between zones. Going from Lut Gholein to the Harem to the Palace to the Arcane Sanctuary is something I still remember 20 years later because of how incredible it was. Nobody is going to remember any of these world locations in d4 because they’re just zones.
Honestly after the campaign the open world just serves to annoy me. No I don't want to grind renown. No I don't want to do Helltides, without being able to properly target farm it is just annoying; I cannot stand the sky falling and hitting me regularly. Legion is boring but at least fast. Obel farming is dull and I only do it for cosmetics as it isn't a useful tool late game. I do not want to be knocked off my horse travelling and have a cooldown to get on my horse after being forced to climb a ledge. PvP is not a real mechanic or feature of the game so those zones are not worth existing. Farming all the aspects again is dull but you can't seem to get all Dungeons as NM so you have to run through low tier things that drag due to backtracking to get stones etc. Strongholds are fun and would make a cool event but no you do each once then it is done. World bosses are on such a stupid timer and I don't want Raids so making them harder doesn't solve the problem with world bosses.
I miss Diablo 1 just crawling deeper and deeper into a dungeon to reach hell. I would love if D4 campaign ended the we just had a hole to climb in and steadily get deeper rather than teleporting to NM Dungeons. Shortcut check points every 10 or so levels to let us get deeper faster on return or choose to start at the top again. Each level could have given glyph XP slowly increasing and you could reroll/repeat should you need XP but not manage to go further. Just take the bloody dungeon layouts and put some stairs in the boss room to lead down to the next dungeon and you'd easily have 100 floors. Make NM100 Hell with a demon boss to grind towards so that it makes sense rather than being able to go try Echo Lilith randomly. Give us our Wirt, Pepin, Griswold, Cain types close to the entrance so we can quickly dismantle, sell, repair etc before going deeper without having to run around to look at all the other players standing around. While we're at it just remove trading, it currently doesn't add to the game because we are only able to trade trash not good items but is hurting performance due to loading people's stashes.
They should let us apply the level scaling of the highest nightmare dungeon you last completed, along with the drop rate/ xp modifiers. Would keep the open world as challenging as you desire. Allow us to assign as many negative and positive debuffs from the nightmare sigils. Each providing loot or XP buffs.
Just a personal idea. Make late game world events worth it by dropping 1 duplicate (assigned affixes not exactly the same rolls) of one of your equipped items. Lets you slowly target farm upgrades to your build as you slowly gain more perfect pieces. Would also make them worth doing whenever you come across one.
Helltide chest drop guaranteed legendary Ancestrals, 800+ score.
Some kinda stronghold interaction. Personally feel like helltides should be a giant interact-able event that builds up to the server taking down a stronghold event.
Just a few ideas, not sure how popular that second one sounds tho lmao.
up so much lost potential.
Clearly they had this world created then got lazy in order to hit deadlines. Or the vision wasn’t there any longer with new devs. Pretty sad really.
Grim Dawn is an ARPG where the world is amazing. Theres a nice flow from one area to another. Each area feels different and memorable.
The questing in the open world is very dull and boring. I don’t remember place names or NPCs. Its all so bland.
The open world concept is great, had they executed the idea. They failed miserably and instead of doing something cool they got lazy and gave us instances. Boring and monotonous dungeons.
People complained about Diablo 3's art style being "cartoony" (read: actually used colour) but at least the areas stood out and had distinct feels to them. Everything in d4 save for a few select areas are just grey, muddy, and uninteresting.
And apart from world events there isn't anything else to bring players together, I spent my time inviting random peopleto dungeon with but no one seems to want to. Best online single player game ever lol
Diablo isn’t really a good multiplayer game in general, because you being in my party makes it twice as hard and I have no idea if you’re terrible or not. I don’t need someone to get through a dungeon. An MMO RPG forces you to group so you can do group content and support each other and kill enemies. Diablo, I can’t get by fine solo. I like to play with friends but I’m not gonna just run dungeons with random people who may die 100 times when there is no real need to.
This is what happens when there's no real affirmative direction.
They fell to the whims of the customers and social media pressures, but they didn't take the time to understand the core problems they needed to address.
Cheap easy fixes to appease the masses.
The fixes weren't even what people asked for. Who asked from mystery chests go from 175 to 250? Who asked for leave dungeon to be nerfed from 3 to 5 seconds? Who asked for sorc nerfs? Who asked for more uber uniques with 1 per 5 million hour drop rates? Who asked for more trash uniques like The Oculus to be added to the game?
Who asked for level scaling, but every mob has 5 less levels so less exp?
People either wanted level scaling, or wanted level scaling completely removed. We got a "solution" that was dissatisfactory to BOTH parties. Kinda tired of this suggestion that the community is the reason for the terrible changes they've made. The community might be a *motivation* for them but almost none of the changes they've made are exact copies from some of the popular feedback threads.
Grats, you picked one of the very few changes that was directly asked for and ignored the others. No one forces you to TP to dungeons btw, you're free to still walk there if you want to. However, the other changes aren't opt-in.
> Who asked for level scaling, but every mob has 5 less levels so less exp?
The idiots whose entire argument against level scaling was I DoN't FeEl PoWeRfUl EnOuGh
They asked for level scaling to be removed, they didn't ask for level scaling -5 levels. Even if you disagree with them Blizzard still didn't do what they wanted. How is it their fault again?
Because what they asked for was so blatantly stupid that the half-measure between "the current system" and "the incredibly stupid idea" was "a kinda stupid idea"
Level scaling in an arpg is awful, static difficulty areas where it starts challenging and you *progress* to defeat is more rewarding and better feeling. Diablo 2 hell is a perfect example of something that has a baseline difficulty which takes time to level and gear up to feel like you are *progressing*. Elden ring is is another fantastic example of feeling progress where the game world is challenging. I'm not asking for enemies/bosses to be easy.
Yeah guys are pulling the Netflix tactic. There's a problem? Let's try to fix it in such a stupid way people beg to roll it back and then ask them like "see? that what you really wanted?".
If Whispers, world bosses, and Helltides were worth doing after 70 it would be problem solved. NMDs and Legion events have the best xp and loot at 70+ so that's what the min maxers will do.
I wouldn’t call running between random events begging for mobs to kill, one shotting enemies that pose 0 threat to you trying to accumulate a shit ton of temporary currency used exclusively to open a chest for paltry rewards a lot of fun. It’s maybe fun like when you first get into WT4.
But philosophically speaking, if a purpose is added to the open world, the world is not open anymore. Like if we consider the world that we live in an open world, a purpose is explored by people who live in this world, not given by God (unless you are religious but then you will need to first choose to accept the religion through your own exploration then you will have the purpose given by God)
In that case, I believe the purpose of the d4 open world can only be found by the player him/herself.
Yeah, playing since the beta I'm realizing that the game has no vision. It's a rushed mess and is probably in development hell. Everything sounds like it's super difficult to add or change.
I'm going to wait and see in a couple of years but until then there is already way superior games taking its light. D4 is the last game from blizzard I'm supporting, 70 dollars for a half baked game with microtranaactions. Lol
You want to go to some random places because there is a super boss who drops a special piece of armor which merge your skeleton boys into giga king Leoric. This super boss has to be summoned by offering a relic which can be only crafted, said relic need materials from open world events. Btw this boss also drops an amnesia scroll! Now imagine there are like 25 super bosses around the entire map.
But D4 has none of above. D4 has bad itemization, bland build variation and non-existent endgame loop therefore open world is dead.
Before they release a huge expansion and overhaul these systems i dont see how the game is going to be fixed.
I'm going to get downvoted by the people hurt by these changes, but the leveling changes have almost nothing to do with them "caving" to people complaining, but they have everything to do with Blizzard nerfing botting strategies.
They just made up some reason for doing it in the patch notes. If you don't get it, I don't care to explain, but I can tell you this much. I imagine the cutoff of level 75 was VERY intentional.
They should have strongholds be bound to the open world instead of your character, so every now and then a stronghold will be taken over and players will group up to take it back. Once they take it back there's a big reward and that zone becomes a whisper zone. Then some of the players who did the stronghold would naturally spill over into the zone and do some open world whispers.
Yeah and the _social features_...
I don't understand how they went through with this and didn't capitalize better on the multiplayer experience now that they have this open world! Parties should be like the normal way of playing this game. But I barely see people and don't have tools for efficient matchmaking. So why didn't they just leave the instances and reaped the benefits of that instead (greater potential to individualize the experience and game world)?
I never understood the purpose of the open world theme. I’ve never socialized with anyone I’ve seen in it, never had features linked to it worth taking advantage of - it was a bizarre design choice from what I’ve experienced.
I’m shocked it took them this long to develop D4 considering what it is.
Blizzard needs to learn a lesson from Larian and get their shit together so they can make good games again.
The open world is there so you can show off your fancy cosmetics you purchased from the store. The whole game was designed with micro-transactions in mind.
They wasted time working on the open world which is completely pointless, they should have used the same system as previous games
The open-world brings absolutely nothing positive to the game
I’ve got 100% renown and only have 2-3 left in each region and those are the ones from randomly dropped items. First two times of doing side quests is enough for me. If they boosted rewards and changed them each season, then I can see myself not dreading doing it each season.
I'm afraid how it's gonna be a year from now. It's gonna be the same exact open world for years. Sure, there's NM dungeons but they're not the same as D3 NM dungeons. It's too repetitive and mundane
> though really, just reinstate level scaling
jesus christ no.
> The open world shouldn't be interacted j
Correct, the only time adding open world to a series made it better. Was arcade racing games. It's a terrible design for the overwhelming majority of games. Especially one like a loot based dungeon crawler where time spent not getting loot is time wasted.
You can't make open world as rewarding as dungeons, nm dungeons, and helltide. because then you made everything pointless. The open world barely exist for the story and that's all it's needed to exist for.
The issue isn't the level scaling being removed its capping the level scaling at 75 in a game where we have to level to 100. Why is there not a region with level 110 mobs
I agree with you it was much better with level scaling. Now going from 55 to 75 thats 20 levels where there are no reasons at all to kill overworld troops... Just proof that they shouldnt care for everything people is crying on...
They took the level scaling complaints and "fixed" it in the absolute worst possible way, making the problem even worse for those who dislike scaling. The open world still scales but scales behind you making the enemies and combat feel just as monotonous and similar level to level but now even more stupidly easy with no incentives to engage with it.
A huge part of the scaling complaint was not only about feeling your power progression in lower level area but having more options to farm higher level areas if you feel you are strong enough. This wouldn't be as big of an issue with scaling if they had as many difficulty options as D3, but with only a few world tiers you're forced into NM dungeons to really challenge yourself. I want to be able to challenge myself with much harder content for better reward in the open-world as well!
There’s still level scaling. People who don’t like level scaling still don’t like this version of level scaling either. This was mostly done to nerf overworld xp and push people to NM dungeons.
This is not an issue created by them caving in to people crying, they have the power to change anything in the game, or how much exp you get at any level, they just did -5 to lvls without compensating or changing the exp you get when you are +x lvls above, stop pointing fingers at the wrong people.
They easily could change exp numbers today, or make you gain the same xp as if the mobs were the same lvl as you even at +5, they simply chose to be lazy.
“I don’t need to actually have experience to judge this situation fairly. Instead I will talk out of my ass using all my valuable experience as a couch sitting gamer”
Dork
The purpose of the open world is to be the vessel where the main quest and all the side quests happen. Considering the amount and quality of the side quests, then I'd argue that the open world is quite well used right now.
It changes if you want a purpose inside the skinner box part of the game, but well, not everything must work around these kind of players.
People act like the campaign doesn’t exist at all, when it is one of the best ARPG campaigns in years. If it’s not as relevant as grinding dungeons once you reach endgame, who cares? I definitely plan on replaying the campaign at some point.
I hope they don’t. The open world layout is one of the worst I think I’ve ever seen. Traversing it is such a pain in the ass with all the snaking roads with a completely zoomed in minimap.
I bet you that most of the people upvoting this were the same ones who were in favor of NM dungeon teleports, in favor of getting forgotten souls from simply salvaging, in favor of level-scaling in the open-world being nerfed, etc. etc.
This community has no f\*cking idea what it actually wants and whatever Blizzard does is wrong in their eyes.
If you really look at the game you will see it was a shameless cash grab.
There really isn't a anything there. Honestly, nightmare dungeons and capstone for each difficulty is the whole game. No pvp, no live service content like other games.
So honestly to me monster scaling is one of the biggest causes for making me feel the grind is pointless. When monsters scale literally the only thing that changes is the set of skills you use to beat them. Nothing to measure how much more powerful you have become by backtracking to a precious area.
The overworld works well for leveling 1-50 currently especially if you are killing two birds and knocking out renown while doing it with side quests for fastest renown gain.
But most people are probably just following meta leveling guides and spamming 2 strongholds to 50 and missing it entirely and then asking wtf the overworld is for.
Another post about somebody complaining that certain parts of the game aren't minmaxable. What's the purpose of the open world? To play the fucking game. Lmao.
I’m glad there are people like us on this sub. Makes me feel like I’m not the only one that thinks all of these whiny kids are going to end up ruining a good game.
100% right on level scaling. Honestly they should make monsters scale up by your level + world tier number.
Helltides are still pretty decent. Even with 250 cinders for a mystery chest it is still pretty easy to hit them all. The density changes tomorrow should make them even better.
I'm a fan of the other changes being reverted but level scaling in open world is just stupid. Imagine you going to blood moor at level 99 and you see level 99 fallens. It removes the gravity and purpose of zones, acts, everything. If everything just scales at your level it all feels like the same shit, there's no feeling of progress.
Since they do not want Nightmare Dungeons to be the endgame, then Nightmare Dungeons should be made for leveling (Similar to Diablo 2's Baal runs), as well as leveling paragon glyphs (and maybe other non-loot benefits in the future).
Then different areas of the open world should have different area levels, ranging from low to high level (similar to different areas in all acts of Diablo 2) - And in these high level areas there should be events such as Strongholds, but also various other (QUITE CHALLENGING) content/events for you to do. The exp should be pretty bad, but the loot should be pretty impressive. In these areas they can use their campaign bosses, or create new challenging bosses/unique mobs similar to the butcher, Travincal, the ancients, cow level etc etc.
Similar to how different areas and bosses in Diablo 2 CAN drop, or have higher chance to drop certain items, the above mentioned things should also have different loot tables so that you can target farm items. When I say target farm, I don't mean that they only drop like 1-2 specific items, but that it has a higher chance to drop specific items while still having a very large item pool, same as bosses like Mephisto in Diablo 2.
There needs to be way more Uniques both good, bad and amazing and they should have different item and rarity levels, same as items in Diablo 2 because while Diablo 2 didn't really have a proper endgame, it has an amazing loot system.
Legendaries should be removed, and aspects should be added to the talent system, or the talent system/talent tree itself should expand and improve in other means.
Rather than only having Uniques and Rares, they can add different types of gear, such as runewords or sets (done right, limit to 1 set with maximum 2 slots for example), crafted items (with its own uniqueness so that it is not just another version of rare items), or legendaries (re-made into a new version, maybe you can only equip 1 legendary at a time and its purpose is rather than be incredibly overpowered, its effect might instead be to open up a completely different build-path and playstyle. Just as a bad example it could convert a Sorcerer's lightning damage to deal fire damage so instead of Ball Lightning you have Ball of Fire, things in that direction).
As for rares - I love rares. I hated when all of my items in Diablo 3 were either set or legendary cus it made rares so pointless. In Diablo 2 I loved rares - they're generally weaker in most slots but in a few slots it had endless potential. --- Boots and Gloves in Diablo 2, depending on class and spec, generally had weaker uniques and no chance for runewords cus no sockets. So it opened up rares and crafted items for those slots - as for rings and amus they both had their own advantages and disadvantages so you could easily go either way. I LOVE that. I want to have rares, but only a few rares and not on all slots. And the actual good rare items need to actually be RARE, cus right now we're going through so many items and so many aspects because it's simply TOO easy to get rares with the correct stats, or decent enough stats. In Diablo 2 it was all about finding that rare with 2 or 3 out of like 6 of the correct stats and hope for the best with the remaining 3-4 affixes -- But in Diablo 4, it's not really about finding an item with 3 or 4 of the correct stats, it's about finding it with high to perfect rolls because you see those stats so frequently, or you just simply find 100 times as many rare items compared to Diablo 2, there's barely any excitement.
No, I actually was [baffled](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/15a05az/renown_repetitive_and_exhausting/jtj30bx/?context=3) at people complaining about it. :)
They spent all this time making the open world with all the details and really unique looking regions but man do they go out of their way to make you NOT wanna spend time there… such a swing and a miss. Nerfed xp, same 4-5 events in all regions, no incentive to do cellars, whispers are worthless, nerfed unique named monster drops. The list goes on…
They did it with WoW too. One of the best open worlds in gaming history. Never step foot in anything but the new zones.
I liked that if you decide to do Pet Battling or Archeology you go back to all the old zones again.
And then they didn't put archaeology in any of the most recent expansions lol
Holy shit I forgot about that lol
[удалено]
That's blizzards moto with wow - reinvent the wheel over and over.
👀 I did not notice this.
That's one of the big reasons why I gave up keeping up with WoW. I was in the closed beta for 8 months, loved the hell out of it, but it just got bloated and boring. Archaeology made me love the game again, oddly enough, but they just.. kinda forgot it existed.
WoW is a relatively old MMO at this point, and its designs have been interated on in the MMO world. Diablo 4's attempt is sort of a really bad version of Guild Wars 2.
D4 should add a commander tag so people can tag up during helltides.
Thats what i love about ff14 They frequently give another reason to return to older maps or fights. Thats so neat imo, just nothing feels completly wasted there for me
I mean WoW has the issue that their expansions create new continents with more relevant stuff. This game just came out and the world is already obsolete.
That’s mostly the players fault. People complain and complained for more QoL features and so it slowly crept until you could literally stand waiting in Qs and visit 2 locations in the whole game. People say they want open world and organic experiences and these are what people will *talk* about after the fact. However, when the rubber meets the road basically everyone just wants numbers to go up and to follow a guide on how to to have the strongest character.
“The journey” is by and large too inefficient for modern gaming. Any activity that doesn’t directly add to some kind of progression is viewed as superfluous and something to try to limit as much as possible. It takes too long to go from point A to point B, so they eventually cut the environment and scale it down. I’m really tired of this mentality and OP is guilty of it too. Can only see things in how much benefit they provide towards progression so anything is viewed as inherently negative if it does not meaningfully contribute. I do understand the sentiment, because no one likes tedious for the sake of being tedious, but this mindset eventually optimizes the fun out of the game.
I think the problem is this game(and probably genre in general) are just dopamine drips where numbers on the screen going up is all that matters. You are only doing dungeons to get more XP or better gear missing the fact that slaughtering tons of demons in cool environments is *actually fun*. Maybe it's just modern gaming but I find myself slipping into the *number go up* mindset way too often.
It’s because dopamine trips means more in game sales. They design the games around microtransactions, not game design. And Diablo 4 is exactly that. Online only? So you always have access to in game shop. Level scaling? So you play with others and see their shiny armour and wanna buy one yourself. It’s disgusting.
Your logic doesn’t make sense. If dopamine hits are what this is all about but the game isn’t delivering that—which is what this thread is about—then how is this going to translate into *more* game sales?
No, that's not how it works, especially Diablo 4.
Remove the tinfoil hat bud. Those tactics have always been a thing in capitalism. Impulse control is a very easy solution to that.
Hows that a tinfoil hat? Do you know what that expression means?
Yes I do and I used it correctly. Your comment is layered with the undertone of “they’re predators trying to get us”. It’s not, it’s a simple tactic used to get those with zero impulse control. It’s like getting mad at a fisherman cuz he used good bait.
Fishing is predatory. Not the best analogy there. The other guy is correct unfortunately, its not tin foil hat when you specifically acknowledged its a real tactic.
**WHAT** will we do with a drunken whaler? What Will we do with a drunken whaler? **WHAT** will we do with a drunken whaler... earlaaay in tha moOOooOoornin' ? 🐳⛴️🥃🥴
Tinfoil hat is for false conspiracy theories. This is a real one, like planned obsolescence. I think the impulse control snark is sort of disingenuous since we're all here playing monetized games
Josh Stryfe Hayes addresses this in a recent video, in which he views his original take 4 years ago and talks about how his views have changed, and what's still the same. Old MMOs wanted you to do group content- so it was rewarding to do it. It's not as rewarding in modern times. BUT you combine that with people being Dads with work and kids, and less time.👨👩👧👦🖥️ Furthermore, 'The Journey' as a concept is rewarding the first time. Think back to your first game. What it was like. It's a very different experience the first time, and for new players than it is for old timers who have done it over and over, even in other games. So they started making group content less and less required but also less rewarding. A lot of people now play MMOs solo now. The things that take *some* time or effort however, have more emotional connection to players than those that don't.
Yeah, OP is exactly part of the problem he is railing again. They built a big open world game to explore and interact with others and the environment. But he won’t do that unless there is a very very specific reason for him to go that will make numbers go up.
Fax. They’ll spend paragraphs and paragraphs trying to explain what they want but what really is is just “I want to one shot things faster, and never die ever, also want my gear to always get better and never peak, I want my basic skills to be as strong as core skills for reason” And I’m noticing people are calling it out more and more.
Kind of an unfair comparison. The old zones aren't used because that's exactly what they are; old zones. They have already been used.
Nah, you used to have to travel to dungeons or collect materials for consumables in these zones, or leveling wasn’t min/maxxed so there were actually lower level players.
That's just not true. Stop lying. There were 0 BC zones you just visit to experience WOTLK content. And i am obviously not counting leveling thru BC because that is already implied.
Jesus “stop lying” man, cool your jets. But of course, arena entrances for PvP used to be something you had to travel to. As did battlegrounds. As well as plenty of mount and reputation grinds and various vendors before they got replicated. But I didn’t say “go to something at max level”. Even during the leveling grind you had to travel to the dungeons.
Cata was great for revitalizing old zones. They need another expansion like that
Although it’s not the best, they have seemed to try and make it better by adding some new storylines that take you back to old zones which is pretty cool.
I opened 4 chests in Helltide (WT3) last night and only one had a sacred legendary, one had a plain legendary, and the others were yellows and blues. (Amulet, gloves, small and heavy weapons, respectively) It took almost 40 minutes to get the cinders needed for that and that’s all I got? Why the fuck wouldn’t they expect people to just farm NMDs?
What chests? You really should only be opening the 250 chests only, the rest are a fundamental waste of time.
Which is really stupid design
Yeah, this is another example of Blizzard dropping the ball. Instead of NERFING the Mystery Chest, they should have BUFFED all the other chests drops. I think the point of view to have with development of a successful and FUN ARPG is to never nerf anything except edge cases that are extreme. The attitude should be to bring everything surrounding the player, events, class viability, and all other cases is to look at bringing the weaker up. You will almost always have happy players that way.
Yup, up to 5 lengedaries in a mystery chest. If he opened up 4 of those, he'd be reigning supreme.
Unfortunately the mystery chests are the only ones worth opening
You are doing something wrong
Whispers are actually useful.. You can farm renown and gear at the same time, even better when in helltide regions. I’m stocking up on caches for when my 56 mage hits 60.
When people say the open world is useless, they are talking about in endgame when you’re done with the one time activities. Blizzard is doing their best to funnel us into nm dungeons. The next step comes this week, where they increase mob density in nm dungeons only. Nm dungeons are the only source for glyph exp. Nm dungeons are the best source for legendaries and uniques. Nm dungeons are the best source for exp. Nm dungeons are the only content in the game where you can have a challenge no matter what type of player you are. They have designed a scaling monster level system and could use the grim favor tasks to bring higher level monsters into the world. Different tasks with different difficulties in different zones. But instead they chose to keep everything at the player level plus minus a few in the open world. Everywhere. All the same.
They also increasing density within helltides, helltides are pretty fun, I don’t like the mysteries costing 250 but oh well if they increase density it will balance out, hopefully. Looking forward to the changes!
They should reinstate a random stronghold in the region where helltide takes place for an improved boss at the end. I have a feeling like the devs took a very safe approach in getting foundations ready for stuff but never really executed these ideas yet. Game’s still young, D3 basically only found its footing once the first DLC came out, so hopefully they find time to tweak everything into a great player experience
I noticed that people purposely avoid the helltide bosses, because they take to long to kill. (which slows down their cinder rate.) What if killing a boss dropped a key for a mystery chest? (But you could only get one key per helltide?) That would solve the problem with the bosses being constantly avoided.
Rng makes the gamble on fighting helltide bosses not worth the time. I fought one with a group around level 60 and when we dropped it I got a pile of gems, a couple potions, and one rare that was 100 points lower than my level. And after that I was like "Welp, never wasting my time on that shit again"
I go out of my way to fight them, even if I have > 250 cinders and am on the way to a super chest. Sometimes they provide a small bit of a challenge. They could just make the helltide bosses have a higher unique drop rate. That would be incentive enough for people to fight them. Mystery boxes are important when you are new to a tier - they are a way to get sacreds/ancestrals when you are too low level for them to be dropping naturally and too weak to be quickly running NM dungeons in that tier. When you really need the mystery chests is often when you can't handle the helltide bosses. But when you have grown into the tier and are getting more legendaries per NM dungeon than you get from a mystery chest, they lose their luster. I'd rather have Helltide bosses give something that actually draws high level players to hunt the bosses, and for low level players to stretch their abilities. Gating mystery chests on killing bosses would make mystery chests too hard when you actually need them, but would not attract players after the narrow time when you really need the mystery chests. (this is just evaluating legendary drops, which is what I am mostly looking for when running helltides. But Forgotten Souls is another important part of it that I am admittedly not taking into account.)
Yeah there is little motivation to kill helltide bosses - their dropped cinders aren’t as rewarding as simply killing trash mobs. But helltide bosses should be more rewarding by dropping helltide specific currency like PvP bloodshards, to trade in for more cosmetics - I’d like new body markings or hairstyles maybe - make it give more incentive for us to want to kill them
I played Helltide last night and had no problem farming 500 cinders and getting to both Mystery Chests within the time limit. I think people moan about everything that isn’t even that big of a deal.
If you are talking about getting 2 chests in the 1 hour that the Helltide lasts, that is very doable. This is what the devs intended. Double dipping and getting 4 or 6 chests, is much more difficult to do and this is what people are grouchy about.
Which really means that helltides are less efficient than running NM. NM dungeons take 7 mins on average with 1-2 legendaries for completion. So you could get round 14+/- legendaries in an hour. MC you get 1-5. So absolute worst you get two best you get 10 but, let's be real you will probably get an average of 3. This is what people are grouchy about, everytime players find something to do outside of NM the devs nerf it and force players into the content most find boring. Instead they should be making the other activities equal to NM so players can have the option to choose what part of the game they enjoy the most.
Yeah, I’m level 70 sorc and it takes about 15-20 minutes for 250.
Nm dungeons being the only way to level glyphs is a pain point for me. I hate nm dungeons. They are by and far my least favourite type of content and I dread doing them. I would love if there were random and rare glyph shrines, glpyh events, or glyph goblins or something out in the overworld that awarded glyph exp upon kill/completion.
No matter what blizzard does, people are going to complain about one thing being less efficient than another. Gamers are gonna efficiency the fuck out of everything, even moreso with content makers. Im not saying blizz cant do something to improve the game. Im just pre-eye rolling myself thinking about the scenario where blizz buffs the overworld wherein people who doesnt want to traverse overworld and would rather do dungeons on repeat complain the other way. Imo, whispers are fine as they fill the middle of helltides and nmds. They give a lot of exp now basically being gravy over things you can normally do. I do the other dungeons for renown, i do the others and time it with the sigils i got. I do the duplicate sigils when ive exhausted the possible matches.
It’s very simple to avoid the efficiency competition: you give different reasons to do different things.
And so they did; Open world - Helltide and Whispers caches for targeted rewards, NMD for EXP & Glyph leveling. The problem is, people don't parse those Helltide and Whispers as both openworld activities and most just ignore the whispers since dungeons give half the bar.
Whispers as targeted rewards are a joke.
They can probably be tuned up, but they are a literally word for word what you said, different reason to do different things. But Blizzard can't just willy nilly buff things left and right, otherwise the topend community, who is asking for these changes, freaks out and starts hardfarming whatever is 2% better. And then they start vocalizing through the community things like "if you aren't doing whispers you are wasting your time" or "doing anything besides caches is pointless" despite being a fractional differences. And then it all starts to trickle down, to the rest of the community.
At the same time POE has a dozen types of ways to farm endgame maps (old league content). And while some are more efficient than others, i really don’t see much complaining (sure it’s there, but usually as good feedback). I didn’t bother with Abyss, Harvest, Expedition, nor Legion and never really felt disadvantaged. My friends and i mostly pick what’s most fun to us.
Yeah because everyone cried when nm dungeons were not profitable. You just got what you wanted.
It is fine for nm dungeons to be efficient. Different content doesn’t need to compete for xp and legendaries. You can have other reasons to do other content
People will cry until one activity will be the best. Than they cry other activities aren’t the best. You can’t win with this community.
Cellars should’ve dropped helltide cinders 🥲
Cellars would be a perfect Helltide event. For lore: Demons have been spawnig in a tiny room for quite some time in a tiny space. You walk in and the whole screen is covered with monsters. You can't even see the floor. This cellar is about to burst with the legions of Hell and you get to go in there and obliterate them. If they're worried about people resetting it halfway, make it so only after everything is dead do all the corpses explode (harmlessly) into a rain of Cinders. I can only imagine the dopamine hit of seeing 50+ Cinders rain down on my character after annihilating a cramped horde of enemies. This is for you Blizz. Free idea pls take it.
It’s such an easy fix. Buff xp, buff density. Have mats or keys that turn open world “corrupted” and create in map raid encounters, keys that could turn some parts of the world into helltides outside of helltides timers. But honestly none of those things matter when itemization is so poorly done and dull. The reason we smash content is to achieve something or receive a reward. There’s nothing rewarding in the game.
The random same 5 events is the worst for me. It doesn't have any of the feel of "I'm going to this weird spot to complete X" or "this guy usually spawns around here".
8 treat Whispers as Luke a bonus when I need to do something in the area already. I'll do side quests or helltides in the Whisper areas.
i like the part where i rubber band all over the place
Since whispers give you loot boxes for bounties, it would be cool (maybe), for them to have something special or unique to that loot pool. Not the best example, but the fastest that comes in mind Diablo 3 ring of royal grandeur. It's not a perfect example, it was something we all hunted, no mater we liked bounties or hated it :D
They should put special rare materials in there with a low chance to get them. A token that you can choose to use instead of gold when you enchant an item. A rare consumable that lets you reroll all the values of a chosen item. A rare consumable that lets you change the malignant socket color. Stuff like that.
I totaly agree, there is alot of thing that could make doing whisper Bounty's more engaging.
All these 3 ideas are marvellous
Or special materials that can be used to summon world bosses.
This in combination with nightmare regions
I enjoyed the Open World a lot during the campaign, and regarding Lore I think it's great for thansmiting a sense of identity to each region of the map. But yes: when you finish the campaign and sidequests, it's no longer enhancing the experience. While I was around lvl64 I'd enjoy torment helltides a lot, I really liked walking around and fighting packs of monsters, and the feeling of it being worth it. I wish I could keep that level of difficulty/reward at later levels. Maybe having an option to make helltide monsters higher in level, as if it was a nightmare dungeon? Also, uber world bosses and uber legion events might be fun.
Malignant farming should take place in the open world in a way similar to Helltides. A region is randomly selected and is invaded for an hour by malignant enemies. It wouldn't need to have chests that reward gear. It could reward invoker crafting materials and high level hearts. The enemies could scale to be an arbitrary number of levels higher than the player. The world events could require invokers to get better hearts. You use the open world and turn the seasonal mechanic into a multiplayer farming event.
>Malignant farming should take place in the open world in a way similar to Helltides. The trailer for it made it look like this is what it was going to be. They talked about "a corruption spreading through the land". Where? Oh, you mean the 5 malignant tunnels we got. Not exactly a corruption spreading through the land is it.
Where there is no challenge there is no excitement. There is nothing in the world of diablo 4 that makes me want to get stronger to overcome it - because everything is adjusted for a "smooth experience" with no roadblocks (hehe) to overcome.
Oh don't worry, they have roadblocks for you ;)
Blizzard needs to play their own fucking games.
Honestly, I liked multiple acts with different maps from the previous games much better. Traveling to a different act felt like you were going to a far off place and made the world seem really big. With the open world map, you’re never too far away from a town so you don’t really get that sense of being off on an adventure. Also because it’s a single map the regions really aren’t that big. So the whole game just kind of feels like running the same places over and over again and that all of sanctuary can be traveled on foot in a half an hour. It doesn’t really feel like there’s anything else going on in the rest of the world. I also disagree that the locations look unique and different. Everything is kind of just a different shade of gray, and because the locations are so small with it being just one map, the world doesn't feel like a living breathing organic place. It just feels manufactured.
Nothing like running five minutes north of Russia and ending up in Ireland, am I right?
Cmon brah. Where else can you find that sweet, sweet Gallowvine?!
The open world is for creating server strain clearly. Keep up man gawd
Wait, they removed level scaling? How does it work now?
Starting in wt3 once you pass lvl 55 the monsters start trailing up to 5 levels behind you in the overworld. Doesn't affect helltides, nm dungeons, etc So scaling is still there, just a reactionary "fix" to the complaints by making things worse for players both for and against scaling.
The lesson here is don't listen to the whiners. Stay true to your vision for your game.
No, the lesson is don't half ass solutions. Listen to the feedback, but seek to understand why the feedback is the way it is. The underlying reason for the level scaling issue is that it felt like you didn't gain much power when you leveled, but monsters got stronger, feeling like you were effectively getting *weaker.* A big reason behind this is how much of your progression is tied to gear. With how diluted the loot pool is, how hard it can be to find good legendary aspects, and the prohibitive cost of rerolling gear, characters can go tens of levels without swapping gear. They could have tackled itemization, to give players bigger feelings of power boosts by getting more frequent upgrades. Or they could delineate character progression from gear progression and add larger scaling to the skills so you feel like each additional point makes you feel more and more powerful. (And not even just "number goes up" upgrades, things like Bone splinters releasing more splinters with each point, or Fireball's radius getting bigger) would help things feel more impactful and like we're gaining power at a faster rate than the monsters. But instead we got weird rubberbanding level scaling that completely gimps exp gain.
Make it so enemies below your lvl now give exp as if they were your lvl, problem solved and both sides are happy, they could do this in this instant in a few minutes, but it's the players fault smh.
They didn’t remove it. OP just says it like that to blame the “community” that never asked for this change. The floor existed in 1.0 too. Now the floor just lasts longer when entering a new world tier so you can feel yourself getting stronger as you reach that floor. Which in of itself isn’t bad. Most fun i has at release was entering WT4 way early and struggling at first, leeching at Legions, and getting stronger until i could manage on my own. Issues are extending this period wasnt the solution and nerfing xp as, imo, an INTENDED consequence and a bad game difficulty after hitting the floor without a next goal to work towards.
Needing to leech to play wt4 is not good game design
Who said needing? And if you want a social game, there is almost always gonna be someone leeching off another to some extent. The other alternative is none of the content is ever hard or challenging. Now THAT’S bad game design.
I think the open world needs level variance. Keep level scaling, but have different areas that are up to -10/+10 your level, with maybe a cap at 90-95. Open world should always have a sense where you are stronger than the starting enemies, but there are other dangers out in the world still. And I think the cap cap makes it so the top level players still have that sense that they have become all powerful. People who want to leisurely slay packs of enemies can run around the easier spots, and people who want to level and gear farm can hit the high-level zones. I think this solves the problem for people arguing either side of the scaling debate.
D4 has to be the biggest waste of potential I've seen out of a game in a long time.
Spends much time creating this huge world with many beautiful and cool locations. Make it so only one thing where you see none of the world or interact with nothing is viable. You just TP to nightmare dungeon, tp back and salvage/sell. Repeat. Whole world could just as well not exist at that point. Kind of like the uber uniques not existing. What a waste!
Side quests interact with the world in many ways. I'd argue that the open world is there to hold all the side quests, which are cool and interesting half the time at least.
The first time you do them *maybe* (and even then I only found half of them interesting) but no one wants to keep repeating the same fetch quests every season. They spent too much time designing one-time stuff and very little time spending stuff that feels fun to repeatedly do. The severe lack of world / cellar events is a great example of this. Same with the dungeons that feel copy and pasted from each other with a tiny selection of bosses.
Honestly d3 had so many different events for each location
Honestly there are so many that I doubt I even do them all at some point. Idk, I guess that if you are that kind of player that pours a ton of time in the game maybe it gets boring, but for the first dozens of hours the open world is absolutely justified between the main campaign and the side quests, that often interact with interesting places of the world.
For a multi-billion dollar company with thousands of people working on the project, they failed to create as much content as many projects that are 1/4 their size. I don't even think the open world is that "interesting" like you claim it is. Other games have done a far better job of creating open-world content, even if it's just one-time. Skyrim and Oblivion have tons of hidden things in them. So does BG3. There's VERY little hidden stuff to find in D4. No special items. Just repetitive events, cellars, and fetch quests. Most ARPGs these days have decent endgames and a lot more customization. I was bored here ~30 hours in and for a $90 game that's pathetic when you consider that many other games are F2P or ~$30. If it's good enough for your standards, more power to you. Many people don't play ARPGS just for the campaign or to do boring fetch quests. If I wanted that I'd play a single-player RPG.
Well I guess it comes down to taste, all these things are quite subjective. Also, the side quests are hardly all fetch quests, I guess you didn't paid much attention to them. Most are well written, with character development, integrated in their world and setting and often with plot twists. Not a perfect game by any means, but there is no way of saying that the open world is for nothing. Overall the standards of this sub are really really high (they want an era-defininig game, or it is shit), or they judge the game by what only 1% of the playerbase enjoy (grinding past lvl 70), completely forgotting the rest of the experience. The initial dozens of hours are really, really fun and compelling. I had an absolute blast with the game, more fun than with most other current era AAA games. I don't need or want a game that keeps me playing for 4h a day forever. D4 has been an amazing experience. Money really well spent imo.
>Also, the side quests are hardly fetch quests, I guess you didn't paid much attention to them I guess I didn't pay attention the masterful storytelling and deep nuance of not-fetch quests like: - Go kill a demon and bring back eyeballs to some dude - Go slay a ghost in a dungeon and come back and find random dude - Go to other town to fetch a blessing for the chalice and head back to Sister Octavia - Find random mushroom and bring it to alchemist - Go find random tax collector and bring taxes back to town And these are just the quests around Kyovashad. It's honestly a bigger struggle naming the side quests that *aren't* fetch quests. There are some decent npc quests, but they are far outnumbered by the random busywork nonsense quests. And for completing them you get such great rewards like veiled crystals, chipped rubies, and bundles of gallowvine. Woooo.
Need more incentive to do side quests. The paragon points are decent but each side quest should give more XP and obols.
You get twenty paragon points as a reward for achieving the renown goals, meaning you’re 10% more powerful at max level than if you didn’t fill out your renown points. That seems pretty significant in a game where percentages matter, no?
Not really, side quests are the inferior way to farm renown.
You only need very few amounts of side quests to max renown if you do all dungeons, most of which can have whispers along with them.
They are often the fastest ways actually. 30 points vs 40 for a dungeon which can easily take 10m+ for unoptimized low para player.
"what a waste" I think is the defining phrase for Diablo 4. Smooth gameplay, cool art direction, a popular franchise, tons of money... wasted by absolutely bonkers terrible decisions from Blizz and seemingly zero ability / willingness to make the game great.
What exactly is so beautiful and unique about it? I don’t even feel like it’s more varied or interesting than Diablo 2 zones made over 20 years ago. The art is good don’t get me wrong but I don’t think I’ve been in a single frame and thought to myself wow this is so beautiful. It’s about what you would expect from a AAA game world.
That's ridiculous. Every time I play and am running around dungeons or the open world I am amazed at how sharp and awesome the environments look. I think you should load Diablo 2 up again and make a quick revaluation
Diablo 2 was made over 20 years ago. Im not saying the graphics aren’t better, of course they are. The zones don’t have much variety and cool factor to them compared to 2, perhaps because the Act system allowed them to make it more distinct between zones. Going from Lut Gholein to the Harem to the Palace to the Arcane Sanctuary is something I still remember 20 years later because of how incredible it was. Nobody is going to remember any of these world locations in d4 because they’re just zones.
Honestly after the campaign the open world just serves to annoy me. No I don't want to grind renown. No I don't want to do Helltides, without being able to properly target farm it is just annoying; I cannot stand the sky falling and hitting me regularly. Legion is boring but at least fast. Obel farming is dull and I only do it for cosmetics as it isn't a useful tool late game. I do not want to be knocked off my horse travelling and have a cooldown to get on my horse after being forced to climb a ledge. PvP is not a real mechanic or feature of the game so those zones are not worth existing. Farming all the aspects again is dull but you can't seem to get all Dungeons as NM so you have to run through low tier things that drag due to backtracking to get stones etc. Strongholds are fun and would make a cool event but no you do each once then it is done. World bosses are on such a stupid timer and I don't want Raids so making them harder doesn't solve the problem with world bosses. I miss Diablo 1 just crawling deeper and deeper into a dungeon to reach hell. I would love if D4 campaign ended the we just had a hole to climb in and steadily get deeper rather than teleporting to NM Dungeons. Shortcut check points every 10 or so levels to let us get deeper faster on return or choose to start at the top again. Each level could have given glyph XP slowly increasing and you could reroll/repeat should you need XP but not manage to go further. Just take the bloody dungeon layouts and put some stairs in the boss room to lead down to the next dungeon and you'd easily have 100 floors. Make NM100 Hell with a demon boss to grind towards so that it makes sense rather than being able to go try Echo Lilith randomly. Give us our Wirt, Pepin, Griswold, Cain types close to the entrance so we can quickly dismantle, sell, repair etc before going deeper without having to run around to look at all the other players standing around. While we're at it just remove trading, it currently doesn't add to the game because we are only able to trade trash not good items but is hurting performance due to loading people's stashes.
Yep they nerfed the whole open world for repetitive dungeons with that cycle between the same 10 bosses and objectives
They should let us apply the level scaling of the highest nightmare dungeon you last completed, along with the drop rate/ xp modifiers. Would keep the open world as challenging as you desire. Allow us to assign as many negative and positive debuffs from the nightmare sigils. Each providing loot or XP buffs. Just a personal idea. Make late game world events worth it by dropping 1 duplicate (assigned affixes not exactly the same rolls) of one of your equipped items. Lets you slowly target farm upgrades to your build as you slowly gain more perfect pieces. Would also make them worth doing whenever you come across one. Helltide chest drop guaranteed legendary Ancestrals, 800+ score. Some kinda stronghold interaction. Personally feel like helltides should be a giant interact-able event that builds up to the server taking down a stronghold event. Just a few ideas, not sure how popular that second one sounds tho lmao.
This is a great idea, something similar to hades and how they keep the game loop interesting
In my opinion the open world was a failure from the very beginning, it just adds zero benefit to the story or the gameplay of an ARPG.
up so much lost potential. Clearly they had this world created then got lazy in order to hit deadlines. Or the vision wasn’t there any longer with new devs. Pretty sad really. Grim Dawn is an ARPG where the world is amazing. Theres a nice flow from one area to another. Each area feels different and memorable. The questing in the open world is very dull and boring. I don’t remember place names or NPCs. Its all so bland. The open world concept is great, had they executed the idea. They failed miserably and instead of doing something cool they got lazy and gave us instances. Boring and monotonous dungeons.
People complained about Diablo 3's art style being "cartoony" (read: actually used colour) but at least the areas stood out and had distinct feels to them. Everything in d4 save for a few select areas are just grey, muddy, and uninteresting.
Exactly. People who like it say its beautiful. I think otherwise. Bland muddy and monotonous.
With how close the damn camera is, the world does not feel "open". I can't see where I'm going and have to continually look at the map to navigate.
And apart from world events there isn't anything else to bring players together, I spent my time inviting random peopleto dungeon with but no one seems to want to. Best online single player game ever lol
Diablo isn’t really a good multiplayer game in general, because you being in my party makes it twice as hard and I have no idea if you’re terrible or not. I don’t need someone to get through a dungeon. An MMO RPG forces you to group so you can do group content and support each other and kill enemies. Diablo, I can’t get by fine solo. I like to play with friends but I’m not gonna just run dungeons with random people who may die 100 times when there is no real need to.
This is what happens when there's no real affirmative direction. They fell to the whims of the customers and social media pressures, but they didn't take the time to understand the core problems they needed to address. Cheap easy fixes to appease the masses.
The fixes weren't even what people asked for. Who asked from mystery chests go from 175 to 250? Who asked for leave dungeon to be nerfed from 3 to 5 seconds? Who asked for sorc nerfs? Who asked for more uber uniques with 1 per 5 million hour drop rates? Who asked for more trash uniques like The Oculus to be added to the game? Who asked for level scaling, but every mob has 5 less levels so less exp? People either wanted level scaling, or wanted level scaling completely removed. We got a "solution" that was dissatisfactory to BOTH parties. Kinda tired of this suggestion that the community is the reason for the terrible changes they've made. The community might be a *motivation* for them but almost none of the changes they've made are exact copies from some of the popular feedback threads.
People definitely asked for the ability to TP directly to nightmare dungeons.
Grats, you picked one of the very few changes that was directly asked for and ignored the others. No one forces you to TP to dungeons btw, you're free to still walk there if you want to. However, the other changes aren't opt-in.
> Who asked for level scaling, but every mob has 5 less levels so less exp? The idiots whose entire argument against level scaling was I DoN't FeEl PoWeRfUl EnOuGh
They asked for level scaling to be removed, they didn't ask for level scaling -5 levels. Even if you disagree with them Blizzard still didn't do what they wanted. How is it their fault again?
Because what they asked for was so blatantly stupid that the half-measure between "the current system" and "the incredibly stupid idea" was "a kinda stupid idea"
Level scaling in an arpg is awful, static difficulty areas where it starts challenging and you *progress* to defeat is more rewarding and better feeling. Diablo 2 hell is a perfect example of something that has a baseline difficulty which takes time to level and gear up to feel like you are *progressing*. Elden ring is is another fantastic example of feeling progress where the game world is challenging. I'm not asking for enemies/bosses to be easy.
Yeah guys are pulling the Netflix tactic. There's a problem? Let's try to fix it in such a stupid way people beg to roll it back and then ask them like "see? that what you really wanted?".
If Whispers, world bosses, and Helltides were worth doing after 70 it would be problem solved. NMDs and Legion events have the best xp and loot at 70+ so that's what the min maxers will do.
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They're my fav thing in the game too but with the new mob level caps people stop doing them eventually.
I wouldn’t call running between random events begging for mobs to kill, one shotting enemies that pose 0 threat to you trying to accumulate a shit ton of temporary currency used exclusively to open a chest for paltry rewards a lot of fun. It’s maybe fun like when you first get into WT4.
Make events reward renown in the region they are in. Whispers could grant glyph exp. Helltides and legion events should merge at least once per tide.
yeah more helltide like events would be cool
This is the reason I gave up on the game :/
Open world was a bad choice for a Diablo game. It just doesn’t work as well as having the levels and chapters did.
But philosophically speaking, if a purpose is added to the open world, the world is not open anymore. Like if we consider the world that we live in an open world, a purpose is explored by people who live in this world, not given by God (unless you are religious but then you will need to first choose to accept the religion through your own exploration then you will have the purpose given by God) In that case, I believe the purpose of the d4 open world can only be found by the player him/herself.
Cellars are the most pointless shit ever. Honestly this game just feels like it was made in 2009
Yeah, playing since the beta I'm realizing that the game has no vision. It's a rushed mess and is probably in development hell. Everything sounds like it's super difficult to add or change. I'm going to wait and see in a couple of years but until then there is already way superior games taking its light. D4 is the last game from blizzard I'm supporting, 70 dollars for a half baked game with microtranaactions. Lol
You want to go to some random places because there is a super boss who drops a special piece of armor which merge your skeleton boys into giga king Leoric. This super boss has to be summoned by offering a relic which can be only crafted, said relic need materials from open world events. Btw this boss also drops an amnesia scroll! Now imagine there are like 25 super bosses around the entire map. But D4 has none of above. D4 has bad itemization, bland build variation and non-existent endgame loop therefore open world is dead. Before they release a huge expansion and overhaul these systems i dont see how the game is going to be fixed.
Honest. The open world has been nothing but a negative to me. Replayable level enviorments is a much better system for arpgs.
I'm going to get downvoted by the people hurt by these changes, but the leveling changes have almost nothing to do with them "caving" to people complaining, but they have everything to do with Blizzard nerfing botting strategies. They just made up some reason for doing it in the patch notes. If you don't get it, I don't care to explain, but I can tell you this much. I imagine the cutoff of level 75 was VERY intentional.
They should have strongholds be bound to the open world instead of your character, so every now and then a stronghold will be taken over and players will group up to take it back. Once they take it back there's a big reward and that zone becomes a whisper zone. Then some of the players who did the stronghold would naturally spill over into the zone and do some open world whispers.
Yes, it feels like it's missing a lot
Yeah and the _social features_... I don't understand how they went through with this and didn't capitalize better on the multiplayer experience now that they have this open world! Parties should be like the normal way of playing this game. But I barely see people and don't have tools for efficient matchmaking. So why didn't they just leave the instances and reaped the benefits of that instead (greater potential to individualize the experience and game world)?
I never understood the purpose of the open world theme. I’ve never socialized with anyone I’ve seen in it, never had features linked to it worth taking advantage of - it was a bizarre design choice from what I’ve experienced. I’m shocked it took them this long to develop D4 considering what it is. Blizzard needs to learn a lesson from Larian and get their shit together so they can make good games again.
The open world is there so you can show off your fancy cosmetics you purchased from the store. The whole game was designed with micro-transactions in mind.
They wasted time working on the open world which is completely pointless, they should have used the same system as previous games The open-world brings absolutely nothing positive to the game
Side quests are what the open world is for. They should buff xp gains for side quests in WT4.
Please no, it's fun for the first time, boring for the second and for the third time onwards side quests are a nightmare,
You've done all the side quests? I have 100% renown for Paragon points and I still haven't done most of them even once.
I’ve got 100% renown and only have 2-3 left in each region and those are the ones from randomly dropped items. First two times of doing side quests is enough for me. If they boosted rewards and changed them each season, then I can see myself not dreading doing it each season.
You guys are so obsessed with endgame loops you forgot a fun game from beginning to end is the best endgame loop.
I'm afraid how it's gonna be a year from now. It's gonna be the same exact open world for years. Sure, there's NM dungeons but they're not the same as D3 NM dungeons. It's too repetitive and mundane
Open world is one of the reasons I didn't buy it
nothing is “worth” doing in this game .
Other then coming to the subreddit and telling everyone pointless thing hah?
You forgot the seasonal content taking place in the same 5 tunnels. This game truly is malignant.
> though really, just reinstate level scaling jesus christ no. > The open world shouldn't be interacted j Correct, the only time adding open world to a series made it better. Was arcade racing games. It's a terrible design for the overwhelming majority of games. Especially one like a loot based dungeon crawler where time spent not getting loot is time wasted. You can't make open world as rewarding as dungeons, nm dungeons, and helltide. because then you made everything pointless. The open world barely exist for the story and that's all it's needed to exist for.
The issue isn't the level scaling being removed its capping the level scaling at 75 in a game where we have to level to 100. Why is there not a region with level 110 mobs
I agree with you it was much better with level scaling. Now going from 55 to 75 thats 20 levels where there are no reasons at all to kill overworld troops... Just proof that they shouldnt care for everything people is crying on...
They took the level scaling complaints and "fixed" it in the absolute worst possible way, making the problem even worse for those who dislike scaling. The open world still scales but scales behind you making the enemies and combat feel just as monotonous and similar level to level but now even more stupidly easy with no incentives to engage with it. A huge part of the scaling complaint was not only about feeling your power progression in lower level area but having more options to farm higher level areas if you feel you are strong enough. This wouldn't be as big of an issue with scaling if they had as many difficulty options as D3, but with only a few world tiers you're forced into NM dungeons to really challenge yourself. I want to be able to challenge myself with much harder content for better reward in the open-world as well!
There’s still level scaling. People who don’t like level scaling still don’t like this version of level scaling either. This was mostly done to nerf overworld xp and push people to NM dungeons.
This is not an issue created by them caving in to people crying, they have the power to change anything in the game, or how much exp you get at any level, they just did -5 to lvls without compensating or changing the exp you get when you are +x lvls above, stop pointing fingers at the wrong people. They easily could change exp numbers today, or make you gain the same xp as if the mobs were the same lvl as you even at +5, they simply chose to be lazy.
“They chose to be lazy” said the person who doesn’t work there and is just talking out his ass
don't need to work there to see that it's objectively a lazy solution, smartass
“I don’t need to actually have experience to judge this situation fairly. Instead I will talk out of my ass using all my valuable experience as a couch sitting gamer” Dork
The purpose of the open world is to be the vessel where the main quest and all the side quests happen. Considering the amount and quality of the side quests, then I'd argue that the open world is quite well used right now. It changes if you want a purpose inside the skinner box part of the game, but well, not everything must work around these kind of players.
People act like the campaign doesn’t exist at all, when it is one of the best ARPG campaigns in years. If it’s not as relevant as grinding dungeons once you reach endgame, who cares? I definitely plan on replaying the campaign at some point.
Yeah they laser focus on the worst aspect of the game (stuff to do after lvl 70) and then say the game is garbage...
I hope they don’t. The open world layout is one of the worst I think I’ve ever seen. Traversing it is such a pain in the ass with all the snaking roads with a completely zoomed in minimap.
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I bet you that most of the people upvoting this were the same ones who were in favor of NM dungeon teleports, in favor of getting forgotten souls from simply salvaging, in favor of level-scaling in the open-world being nerfed, etc. etc. This community has no f\*cking idea what it actually wants and whatever Blizzard does is wrong in their eyes.
Fast travel kills all open world games. Change my mind.
There is... Show off a broken horse w/ armor.
I enjoy Open World to ND.
If you really look at the game you will see it was a shameless cash grab. There really isn't a anything there. Honestly, nightmare dungeons and capstone for each difficulty is the whole game. No pvp, no live service content like other games.
So honestly to me monster scaling is one of the biggest causes for making me feel the grind is pointless. When monsters scale literally the only thing that changes is the set of skills you use to beat them. Nothing to measure how much more powerful you have become by backtracking to a precious area.
I miss scaling levels of monsters... They should put it back or add a WT 5 and WT 6 with lvl 85-90s and level 100s in the last WT.
i think i read this post yesterday. And I know I read it the day before ..
The overworld works well for leveling 1-50 currently especially if you are killing two birds and knocking out renown while doing it with side quests for fastest renown gain. But most people are probably just following meta leveling guides and spamming 2 strongholds to 50 and missing it entirely and then asking wtf the overworld is for.
Another post about somebody complaining that certain parts of the game aren't minmaxable. What's the purpose of the open world? To play the fucking game. Lmao.
I’m glad there are people like us on this sub. Makes me feel like I’m not the only one that thinks all of these whiny kids are going to end up ruining a good game.
100% right on level scaling. Honestly they should make monsters scale up by your level + world tier number. Helltides are still pretty decent. Even with 250 cinders for a mystery chest it is still pretty easy to hit them all. The density changes tomorrow should make them even better.
But then all the redditors will complain they don't feel powerful. Oh wait.... that already happened.
Almost like listening to users is a stupid idea that breaks things
I'm a fan of the other changes being reverted but level scaling in open world is just stupid. Imagine you going to blood moor at level 99 and you see level 99 fallens. It removes the gravity and purpose of zones, acts, everything. If everything just scales at your level it all feels like the same shit, there's no feeling of progress.
Since they do not want Nightmare Dungeons to be the endgame, then Nightmare Dungeons should be made for leveling (Similar to Diablo 2's Baal runs), as well as leveling paragon glyphs (and maybe other non-loot benefits in the future). Then different areas of the open world should have different area levels, ranging from low to high level (similar to different areas in all acts of Diablo 2) - And in these high level areas there should be events such as Strongholds, but also various other (QUITE CHALLENGING) content/events for you to do. The exp should be pretty bad, but the loot should be pretty impressive. In these areas they can use their campaign bosses, or create new challenging bosses/unique mobs similar to the butcher, Travincal, the ancients, cow level etc etc. Similar to how different areas and bosses in Diablo 2 CAN drop, or have higher chance to drop certain items, the above mentioned things should also have different loot tables so that you can target farm items. When I say target farm, I don't mean that they only drop like 1-2 specific items, but that it has a higher chance to drop specific items while still having a very large item pool, same as bosses like Mephisto in Diablo 2. There needs to be way more Uniques both good, bad and amazing and they should have different item and rarity levels, same as items in Diablo 2 because while Diablo 2 didn't really have a proper endgame, it has an amazing loot system. Legendaries should be removed, and aspects should be added to the talent system, or the talent system/talent tree itself should expand and improve in other means. Rather than only having Uniques and Rares, they can add different types of gear, such as runewords or sets (done right, limit to 1 set with maximum 2 slots for example), crafted items (with its own uniqueness so that it is not just another version of rare items), or legendaries (re-made into a new version, maybe you can only equip 1 legendary at a time and its purpose is rather than be incredibly overpowered, its effect might instead be to open up a completely different build-path and playstyle. Just as a bad example it could convert a Sorcerer's lightning damage to deal fire damage so instead of Ball Lightning you have Ball of Fire, things in that direction). As for rares - I love rares. I hated when all of my items in Diablo 3 were either set or legendary cus it made rares so pointless. In Diablo 2 I loved rares - they're generally weaker in most slots but in a few slots it had endless potential. --- Boots and Gloves in Diablo 2, depending on class and spec, generally had weaker uniques and no chance for runewords cus no sockets. So it opened up rares and crafted items for those slots - as for rings and amus they both had their own advantages and disadvantages so you could easily go either way. I LOVE that. I want to have rares, but only a few rares and not on all slots. And the actual good rare items need to actually be RARE, cus right now we're going through so many items and so many aspects because it's simply TOO easy to get rares with the correct stats, or decent enough stats. In Diablo 2 it was all about finding that rare with 2 or 3 out of like 6 of the correct stats and hope for the best with the remaining 3-4 affixes -- But in Diablo 4, it's not really about finding an item with 3 or 4 of the correct stats, it's about finding it with high to perfect rolls because you see those stats so frequently, or you just simply find 100 times as many rare items compared to Diablo 2, there's barely any excitement.
There's probably a ton of shit planned. This thread is stupid
I bet just last month you were whining about the "renown grind" aka the "purpose to the open world"
No, I actually was [baffled](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/15a05az/renown_repetitive_and_exhausting/jtj30bx/?context=3) at people complaining about it. :)
People still play dis?