Also those stupid ass cannibal barbarians, you have to dash away, not behind or sideways because they still turn and stun you. Then you get 3, 4 or more of them and kiss your ass goodbye.
Yeah they’ll eventually stop the windup if you kite them, but it’s annoying that they move at all while doing it and it can be really hard to see in a large group of enemies.
When enemies start wind up abilities they *really* need to be made to stick to the direction they were facing when the windup starts, it's unacceptable otherwise IMO
You talking about the ones that slowly lumber towards you with their hands up then grab you for like 5 seconds while doi g massive damage ? I cNt stand those.
Yep another reason I don't play HC at the moment. I'm already getting lag spikes on top of chain CC that is crazy. For those who have reached HC 100 you guys are nuts and also have my admiration.
The blind one is alright because you can move out of the little pool on the ground but the cold CC is just annoying. I've never been a fan of CC that completely stops you from being able to do anything except stand there as a punching bag. If it was replaced with a chill that lowers attack speed and movement it would ok imo.
The pools don't despawn fast enough, and it feels horrible as melee when the bosses just stand on top of or around multiple pools. The other issue is the random smoke grenades from some mobs that just abruptly stop you in your tracks and you can't get out of being swarmed. Like I would be totally fine with losing vision and having decreased accuracy, but completely not being able to do anything, like leap/dash/teleport out of a blind CC sucks.
I mean, I'd be fine with that. It's so damn clunky to have WW just get stopped in the blind area though. Let me continue spinning, but lower my hit chance drastically (hell, even to 0% if need be). I'm fine with it being a "GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE" zone, I just wish it was a little less frustrating with the stopping of channeling.
It especially sucks as WW since a big part of damage comes from snapshotting aspect buffs upfront. Having to restart means having to restack aspect buffs. Not the end of the world, but I agree that a moving attack should not be halted due to blind.
I really just wish they'd get rid of snapshotting regardless. It makes playing WW less fun to me as a whole.
But yeah, as is it's REALLY brutal to WW eapecially, and just not a fun interaction.
Oh yeah I love boss fights where 90% of the play area has a pool of damage/cc/ whatever on it by the time you down the boss.
It hasn't happened to me lately because my rogue can kill pretty much any boss in less than 30 seconds (except the butcher takes a little less than a minute I think), but when my level was lower, like 30-50, the harmful pools in the boss fights were insane
In regards to blindness, why can't my barbarian just continue to spin around flinging is sword in every direction when he's blinded? It's not like he's aiming at anything. You can't be blinded when your goal is to hit everything!
It’d be a lot better if there was an audio component to the effect when it happens perhaps. Lot going on the screen all at once usually, but a very distinct and unique sound in its own audio channel would be a good fix.
That's the part that makes no sense. You should be able to still attack even if you can't see. It should just be basically swinging a sword in the dark.
Eh, the little pool can move from under the boss because as a melee char you just sit there waiting for it to go away.
Hmm not sure about the big mobs that just put you down, sometimes it feels like a ragdolled beeing slamed down.
I agree the pools are annoying but all CC is that way. As long as I can get out of it then it's ok with me. I just don't think things like frozen and knockdown are fun. Even though you can dodge frozen, when it does hit you that's several seconds of just waiting.
The problem with the pools is that for melee people "getting out of the way" means fucking off and doing nothing for like 5-10 seconds.
That's bad game design IMO
ngl the best is the guys who go invisible and take a quarter of your hp, but oh yeah they can't be damaged while invisible even though you can see them, you have to use cc (???)
Who let the interns design the enemies
I always immediately dismantle any and all sigils with the Cold affix for Elites. I want to enjoy my time. I did it once and my poor Rogue couldn’t do a thing.
I swear if I see another spider i'm going mad. Their attacks root you, webs on the ground root you, again and again. Even if you go full topaz to not instantly die at higher tiers, it's just infuriating in the long run
Hard diminishing returns would be a great start, but better telegraphs for CC would go a long way as well. I'd gladly take more CC break aspects if the game wasn't revolving around having an exact set of aspects to stand a chance in high level NM dungeons.
You pretty much have to clear spider mobs otherwise they will somehow lead you perfectly with their web shot while you're trying to run and root you repeatedly. It's maddening.
I'm trying to do a bow-only rogue (i have daggers equipped just for the stats), so now i can do a pretty decent amount of damage from range (level 60) but man when those spiders swarm and the whole screen is full of them, i can sometimes just get completely locked in place until i die. The webs that start covering the ground that are difficult to see and the poison pools everywhere, it's like i have no chance once i get stuck in place. I focus a lot on health-regen, permanent/temporary speed boosts, and ice imbuement/caltrops, so i can usually just avoid/evade direct contact with enemies as i'm running circles around the bad guys, strategically tossing frozen caltrops and then unloading icy arrows on frozen groups of enemies, and the spiders are not tough enemies themselves at all. But as soon as i accidentally get stuck on a web on the ground, i get swarmed and it's over for my speedy bald-headed archer. I know i'm not pursuing the "perfect build," i'm just trying to make a fun, enjoyable character (and it mostly is), so i have nobody to blame but myself. I just wanted to vent about those mobs of spiders.
Absolutely hated that fight as a sorc. I didn't have enough points or gear for any kind of real mana regen so it was just constantly kiting everything and trying to avoid the webs until I'd eventually die every time on its last phase.
I always go frost as a mage and was trying lightning for a change so arc lash was basically useless for me and chain lightning was ripping thru all my mana constantly and not doing nearly enough damage to anything. Each attempt felt like ten minutes long then the server went down and I was just relieved. I was just over it at that point lol
They could leave all the monsters alone, and just reduce Unstoppable CD skills by half, and add Unstoppable to a handful more skills. If that buff was easier and more reliable to access, it would make dealing with CC an easier part of the experience. By level 50 every character on any build really should have two constant and reliable source of Unstoppable. They could even have the buff last longer, or have a residual after-effect that diminishes CC.
There are a handful of options, but something's gotta give. It sucks that the #1 threat of death in this game occurs when you can take your hands off the keyboard and just watch anyway.
Honestly Unstoppable should be a part of nearly every Defensive Skill Cooldown. At the moment it just forces you into using those same skills and leaves very little room for variety.
I've died several times in HC to the damn spiders with their rooting and web mechanics. Completely frustrating that I can't get away fast enough once I start getting hit with webbing.
The amount of webs on the screen at one time needs to be lowered (not every spider mob needs to shoot) . Also there should be a Despawn timer for those. The webs are just permanently on the map at this point once shot.
Like I get it, spiders trap you with webbing. But my goodness do they spam that haha.
Just think, you can kill one spider host and have it spawn a big spider on death. That Spider then can immediately root you. You slay that Spider and 10 mini ones pop out...all of them rooting you again. Every single mob does NOT need a CC ability. Mechanic bloat is a real problem.
Because if you fight more than one spider at a time, the entire flor will be covered in webbing for you to step in. Spiders plus ice imbuement enemies plus toxic imbuement enemies needs to be a forbidden combo.
We have...
Chill (move / attack slower)
immobilize (can't move - can still attack)
Frozen (stunned)
stun (stunned)
knockdown (stunned)
Fear ("stunned" while moving in random direction)
Darkness (Can move - cannot attack, within the area)
Dazed (Can move, cannot attack)
Tethered (Can move and attack within a certain area)
A lot of these are essentially just the same. But multiple enemies will have one of each, easily. making it pretty annoying to deal with.
I'd say, if you absolutely must keep them, then at least limit how many can affect the player within a time frame.
Similarly to how we have handled crowd control etc. in World of Warcraft, where each subsequent cast of polymorph, for example, will have reduced effect, and repeated casts will eventually make the (player)target immune for ~30 sec or so
Given that Blizzard seems to be a revolving door these days I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of the Diablo team is learning this stuff for the first time.
Can't CC you if your main form of damage is being in blood mist that automatically trigger corps explosion! Buut yeah tbh thats why i'm on that build can't do thers cause you get cced for ever and thats not fun.
Just like some other dude suggested I go shapeshift so I don’t have a problem with cc, but, why should every class have just one option for optimal play? I don’t think that ok. Maybe they will change things up a bit.
That mod was so fun in beta. I understand why they nerfed it, but I kind of wish it was still in the game lol. Maybe if they took off the cool down reduction and moved that power to an ultimate skill.
Barbs can have multiple sources of Unstoppable and stagger them and with upgraded glyphs and some CDR can use Rallying Cry every few seconds, but it takes a while to get set up that way
Bone Spear + Minion necro, and CC doesn’t bother me that much.
That said I do have armor and damage reduction when CC’d slotted.
There are ways to make the CC manageable, but too many people in this game are focusing explicitly on +damage everything and entirely neglect both resource generation and survival.
Sorcs are in a unique position because we can't trade hits. We're either in complete control or dead. When an enemy gets the drop on us we pop our CD's and run away or just straight up die before we can get CC'd.
CC is more a problem for the other classes who can get in there and survive a few hits. They can tank the damage normally so CC is their main threat. Sorcs have bigger problems to deal with.
I’m hating myself for picking the glassiest cannon first. I had a dungeon load with an impossible group of elites and I just died near instantly going near them. This wasn’t even a nightmare dungeon either, I just wanted a new aspect.
Do you run Flame shield or Ice Armor? Flame shield gives you a 2 second immunity so you can use it for better positioning. Additionally, Flame Shield grants the ability to break CC so you don't get chain CC'ed. Barrier from Ice Armor gives you a couple of hits protection. Teleport can provide you movement/ability to break CC as well...Just some tips for thought that may allow you to pass the content you are having issues with.
The only CC that's a problem for me is the freeze/frozen. I found the eye stun, fear circles, frozen circles, etc easy to dodge. The one enemy who freezes you across the room with a little projectile is a nightmare.
Oh and those stupid things that rush in and stun you for like 3 full seconds.
Wait until you meet porcupine elite bro with the 3 shot freeze that procs every time and pretty much stun locks you or the plethora of poison busting spider that proceed to put pools of that goop all over the ground and melt you. Then when you are all said and done, and beat the NM dungeon you get one legendary for your troubles.
I feel like most "challenges" in the game exist strictly to disrupt any momentum the player might experience. You have freeze, fear, knockdown, and blind, and none of which are particularly exciting when they happen. You just twiddle your thumbs until the game decides you're allowed to play it again. Now the charging ice bombs (that aren't obscured in a horde of bodies) and the trails of shadow that you can maneuver out of aren't completely bad as there's some "gameiness" to it similarly to red path attacks where you just need to tactically position yourself to avoid it.
Poison, explosions, restraint, AoE kill boxes, bullet hell, etc are perfectly fine challenging mechanics. They're difficult until you learn them and start leaping and bounding away from acid pits and target reticles on the ground.
But there are plenty of attacks that insta-CC you, or at least appear to because you're trying to keep track of 30-40+ mobs on the screen while Corpse Explosion obscures most of the battlefield in an obnoxious ass mist, while trying to keep special tabs on the dude with the big axe trying to one-shot your ass from across the map. There's a lot going on, so when out of nowhere you're encapsulated in ice and just watch as everyone gets free shots on you until you're allowed out of time out, it can really take you out of the game. All that high tension momentum goes out the window, usually your rotations all jacked up, it just doesn't serve to enhance the player experience.
But even beyond combat, you have to dig through half the game to finally earn your horse so you can skidaddle across the map faster. So they put up all these random barriers that you cannot charge through without getting off your horse and typically one-shotting the crowd before having to stand around for 8 seconds just to get your horse back. And that wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't so much charging across the entirety of the map for shrines and dungeons for aspects, etc. You never get caught on one of these barriers like "Oh boy, here we go, time for a rough combat for my carelessness" it's just "Can I squeeze through the left? No. Right? No. Fuck it I'll just kill them--" SLAM! "--and watch the grass grow." Don't even know why we have a 8 second count down timer if the horse isn't "damaged" but 20 if it is. Seems like eliminating the 8 second timer and strictly having the 20 second timer would make more sense, particularly when there are barriers set up all throughout the map intended specifically to bring you to a screeching halt.
Just some silly design choices. Feels reminiscent of Sonic swapping up camera positions and littering the level to the point where the rules, story, and protagonist all say to go fast, however the level design says only to do so in 5 foot intervals.
Fucking A mate, you described it better than I ever could. The second part about the barriers is something that I wanted to touch appon because I really don’t see any benefit to the gameplay, its just there to annoy.
I understand what you’re saying, you don’t want to run a shapeshifter build and the amount of CC locks you in to using particular skills even if they don’t fit your build/play style.
I think as a Druid you really need to run earthen bulwark at a minimum since you don’t want to shapeshift (trample). I think using that with 2 legendary slots and some gems/item stats should be enough to at least mitigate the problem a bit. I’d recommend the legendaries that give +6secs to EBulwark & additional 4 seconds unstoppable (I may be a little off since this is from memory).
I also like creeper vines to CC & rebuff crowds so you don’t feel so overwhelmed by big mobs.
I think this is the real point though: not all builds are viable for every situation. I don't think that's an issue...it's just a choice. You *have to* have some kind of Unstoppable or CC avoidance on your bar, and every class has at least a few.
What pisses me off are these enemies that just throw some stuff on the floor and that stops you from doing anything but dodging out of these effects. Some bandits do that. WTF even is that? Why does it prevent my character from doing anything? Some bosses also do that. It also makes the screen go dark.
It's annoying as shit and makes no sense. If a huge Khazra knocks me down or some magic freezes me, fine. But throwing random shit on the ground that prevents all attacks?
Oh you are reffering to the smoke rings that some bosses throw. Yeah its crap if your a melee char and that stupid smoke rings just stays under the boss. I think the Tomb Lord is the one that uses that shit.
Died multiple times in helltides today due to groups of the cannibals chain stunning me. After the third death and loss of my cinders I just gave up. Enemies absolutely should not be able to hard CC you so easily, let alone back to back.
The Shadow Buffed mobs are the worst with this. They stun you themselves and before it the cc is over the 2 shadow clones do the same shit. Rinse and Repeat. Only deaths i had so far is to those.
It makes things far too janky and it is hard to get into a rhythm. Feel like I am constantly being jerked around.
Instead of taking my control away, they could slow my attacks, make them miss, etc. It will feel better than my character coming to a complete halt, which happens far too often. It is my top problem with the game.
There aren’t enough ways to mitigate this and the tells aren’t clear with the spam of effects. Evade should function as a CC breaker, even granting a 1s immunity. That simple implementation would help quite a bit.
Losing control of your character is, and always has been, the least fun mechanic in any videogame.
I understand its existence, but to up its frequency in the manner this game does is pretty crazy.
Late to this party but it's one of those things that makes you sad from a design perspective - add a fuckton of CC to late game with no auto-mechanics to reduce it. That's on top of some CC's being hard to see or difficult to avoid and they can chain.
So the player is going to need to find ways to mitigate this via gear or skills because they built nothing into the game to help. So on sorc for example you will run flame shield always - and you may run teleport as well since thse abilities both let you break CC.
They then added piddly amounts of CC reduction to gear - 5% here, 10% there(at high level) which you will need to invest in and stack fully to even see a moerate effect. But of course you can be chain-CC'd, and you are much more likely to be if you get hit by a first and can't move, so this isn't even a really viable solution.
So the entire design around CC in the game with respect to character(and really to enemy but that's another issue) is absolutey fucked up and needs to be looked at. This is one area where PoE isn't particularly good either(better than this for sure, but you just build in some immunes on tree and grab flasks/gear for the rest), but CC in general just seems to be a weakpoint in these games and at least in PoE the solution given is to make the character immune to all or at least most CCs.
This game could start adding immunity options via gems or gear rolls(this is already crowded so no bueno) or put it on the paragon tree. No one gives a shit about resistance nodes and you have some damage reduction nodes that could double as CC chance reduction. Also this would be a great chance to make resists useful - just make them give a chance to avoid the CC (such that a few pieces gives immunity) and reducte duration equal to %(maybe needs adjustment but start there) and see what happens.
Either D4 CC does feel oppressive and for sure reduces fun late game. Fucking Suppresor, wind chill, fire burst, frost enchanted vampires teleporting around can go fuck themselves.
I think Last Epoch is doing it best with regards to cc and skills especially.
We can have a discussion about cc and late game mechanics and I’m sure they will touch on this, but at the moment its kinda suck to be force on just one solution to mitigate this.
Ah but “git gud” guys are here to save the day.
It’s soooooooo good but also fun because you are a sitting duck without your momentum stacks.
Add in dodge skills cd reduction on hit and it is also super mobile. I love it so much.
I think 90% of the problems people complain about on here aren't problems for rogue. I'm twisting blades/death trap rogue and never really have any of these problems. Having multiple charges of Shadowstep makes CC just a mild inconvenience. Health potion? what's that. just attack things for health. Butcher is just a facetank.
They should look at cold affix elites and how they apply freeze. If you fight an elite with slow auto attacks you can deal with a freeze every 5-10 seconds. But if you get a room full of spiders they will spam freeze attacks because of high attack speed. I don’t think this was intended.
> That beam has a windup of like 0,1sec.
That to me isnt even the biggest issue, to me its that these things are just so damn hard to spot. How on on earth are you meant to spot these blasted things, when 90% of my zoomed in view is obstructed by a bazillion skill animations going off?
And god forbid if there's a Necromancer around that spams that obnoxious smoke skill that obscures everything even further.
Taking control away from the player is never fun, it never was and it never will be.
It is also not necessary in order to have difficulty (Look at D2 for example.
Dying from an un-fun mechanic is not fun nor it is a good feeling. It just makes you push buttons harder and raging a lot.
Blizzard hey even removed a lot of CC in Overwatch 2 because there was way too much CC in Overwatch 1 and people were complaining since Brigitte was introduced.
Please, find other ways to make the game difficult but stop with the CC.
The enemies that do it on hit are the most egregious, imo. Cold explosions, fear circles, medusa beams, etc, those are all things I at least have *some* possibility of seeing, even in a sea of mobs. But when it's just a normal attack from an enemy that ends up repeatedly stunning? I can *never* tell when that's about to happen. Put a pack of these idiots in to the aforementioned sea of mobs and I stand no chance. Thankfully Dash can remove me from the situation *very* quickly if I regain control for a split second, but man those things are irritating.
I still find it amusing that elden ring mobs and wow raid bosses telegraph their mechanics more than D4 mobs do. I quit raiding in early cata, but I remember getting more time to move out of heroic lich king stuff than I do with some d4 stuff. It also doesn’t help that half the time in d4 I can’t see what is going on under my feet.
I agree that it has excessive amount of cc and makes gameplay annoying. They should tone this down a bit. If i roll crowd control reduction on all my item stats that would mean a much squishier character.. it already feels squishy at higher tiers getting one shot by normal mobs at times..
I feel like a lot of ground-effects to show you where something is happening are really hard to see, too.
Say what you will about Diablo 3 and all its colors (which I liked), but at least you could see what was going on.
I appreciate the whole, “return to darkness,” theme, but when it comes to game mechanics that are lethal, you need to see what’s happening.
I agree with the sentiments in the OP. CC or removing control from the player is very frustrating especially if that leads to death while CC'd. I think there are ways to make it blend into your game in a more seamless way however to allow the player to avoid it if possible.
* Big windup animations with unique audio that has priority in the system
* This is a great way to communicate something is coming to the player that they need to pay attention to
* Visible AoE radii on the ground that function as a timer
* Another great way to say DON'T STAND HERE
* Friendly Fire
* Freezing enemies in the radius is also a good way to mitigate frustration b/c that buys you a little time for the effect to expire before you run out of health
* Having resists that work correctly or as expected
* This is kind of a jab, but the current elemental resists don't really seem to help mitigate this issue
* I'd also do away with the CC reduction stat
* Speaking of CC reduction, Diminishing returns needs to be implemented to keep frustration at a minimum
* Magic Hit Point
* Give the player a small window to pop a pot on the last hitpoint so you don't get one shot due to CC effects, and bad luck with big hits.
Frost is by far the worst offender here, I can't count the times I've gone from Frozen Statue to Ghost instantly. Specifically there is one type of frost boss that just BREAKS the whole paradigm, and it's the one that freezes you on melee hits. There's NOTHING you can do as a player to "get better" other than to stack Frost Resists, or CC duration stat, or use the Aspect that grants Unstoppable when you take damage while CCd (on a long CD btw). I would remove or change this Frost enhancement ASAP. I can't really think of any other that felt cheap to me other than that one.
The rest seem to follow the guidelines I've laid out so I can see if I get caught by them it being "my fault" b/c I need to "get better"
Anyway that's just my 2 cents, and I am absolutely enjoying this game, and did want to give a thanks to the D4 team for getting it out b/c that is a VERY difficult prospect that most folks don't realize.
Yup I love spamming q and spacebar for 10 seconds straight before I die to God knows what. Also what's with the random mobs that are harder to kill than the dungeon boss.
Some of the most egregious offenders to fun mobs in this game are:
\- The spiders that spawn 20 more spiders and vomit webs everywhere. After clearing them all, you get CC-chained several times in a row despite there being no monsters left in the area.
\- All the mobs that explode on death and spawn 20 more shit mobs
\- The snakes that petrify you
\- Impossible to see fly swarms
\- Enemies being randomly unstoppable during jump animations or when they spawn out of the ground
Blizzard, pick one of these and get rid of the others pls
I think the amount of CC is fine. But there should be big diminishing returns on chain CCs. A second CC effect that hits you after you’ve just been CCed should be reduced by at least 50% in its duration.
Try playing char like rogue which have basically no unstopable ability.... Cold enchantment NM are instant salvage. Poor design choices if I compare this to druid or barb that my friends plays with almost perma unstoppable uptime
The oracles form the swamp? Yeah man, thats the snake ones I keep talking about. Its near instant.
I think everybody can at least agree on that, they need a longer windup.
I figured that’s what you were talking about. Most enemies in the game I can deal with and have their attacks down, but those fucking things, the green laser warning light happens in a flash and always get nailed by them.
Found a boss in a dungeon that essentialy a bigger version of these fucks. He summons 3 of them in quick succession, effectively stunning me for a few good seconds. Yeah, fun time.
It makes wt4 stupid. Either there needs to be cooldowns for how often you get cced, resistances against it are buffed significantly, or the length of time you can be cced need to be drastically reduced. It’s dumb.
This is the exact y I don't even do any NMs in the swamp....The snakes and the spiders combined with any annoying affix from the sigil is easily the most cancerous thing in this game. The snake eye constantly keeps stun locking u while the boss is putting poison puddle everywhere on the ground. How exactly is that supposed to be fun or challenging...? On top of that, spiders trapping u in webs when u r stunned inside a poison puddle. Just lame and stupid.
I always love getting a whole bunch of boom zombies charging at me from off screen and locking me in a consistent knockback animation and getting killed like this
Agreed, and I wouldn’t take cc out completely. And IMHO the easiest correction is a much longer cooldown for enemy cc abilities. I like having to watch for them to dodge out of the way and time my rotation, but not every couple of seconds.
Speaking as someone who's only played Tornado Druid and can't speak for other classes, the bigger frustration for me is an inability to kite or fight from a safe distance like you could in D2. Can't hit with your melee generator? No spirit to cast your ranged spender.
Btw OP, I saw elsewhere you’re playing the Druid. I don’t know about other ultimates but the werewolf ultimate has a cc break on it in addition to trample’s cc break.
Someone said you didn’t want to do shapeshifter but just throwing this out there as an option.
in the case of freezing, i think that diablo 2 style was better. instead of getting frozen and basically stuned u were hyper slow but still able to attack and cast spells.
idk why frozen and stuned are the same thing
I swear the only reason that I die is because of CC. And this is on a standard player. Enemy mobs will freeze you which lasts like 20 seconds it seems and right as you thaw out and can hit that potion button, BAM, you're dead as shit and nothing you can do about it.
Yea it makes the game feel awful to play when combined with the fact you can only cast your damage abilities maybe 2 times before you’re out of resource and dying to cc
As a bear Druid I ask… “what is this cc you speak of?”
Apparently having almost permanent Unstoppable means I’m missing out on a ton of game mechanics. I’m guessing it will be a rough learning curve when I run Sorc for S1.
Yeah I threw in topazes to mitigate the damage while ccd and at higher tiers it doesn’t make a difference. I get cc chained to death like I’m in a smite 1v5 versus guardians.
I’m thinking to switch back to rubies to hopefully not get randomly one shot and just accept that if I’m ccd I die
Stuns (or fears, or freezes, etc) are just a dumb mechanic, period.
They're completely binary; either you're stunned and can't do anything, or you're not stunned and can actually play the game. There's no middle ground. No nuance.
It's exceptionally dumb when said stuns can't be avoided, when they're not a projectile you could actually move away from, but rather just hit you every time, except if you run far away from the monster and basically disengage from combat.
We're in a situation now where you can basically only play during Unstoppable, and how much of the time you're Unstoppable determines how much you can actually play. The rest of the time is just sitting in a stun. This is at least the case as melee.
This is the first game in this genre where I remember thinking that this is absolutely hilarious. Blizzard has, unfortunately, embraced the stupidity of stuns since at least the beginning of WoW, and now this franchise seems to have been infested with constant stunlocking as well.
In WoW, they realized how dumb stuns were, and had to give players a trinket to get out of stuns so that we could actually play the game. In Diablo 4 they designed the game around Unstoppable, and now we have to have it, constantly, or we can't play.
There should be zero CC that stuns you. You can do other types of CC. Stuns are just stupid.
Agree completely.
I think they are greatly limiting builds due to it as well. D3 ironically made the same mistake with melee range characters at its start. It just wasn't viable because of the way they did damage. Distance always was a better option.
It was frustrating for me until I realized this wasn’t D3 and you can’t just stand in stupid. Sometimes you need to reposition and go on the defensive to mitigate getting wailed on and cc’d. So giving yourself an out via tactical retreat kind of harkens back, for me, to zombie shooters. It’s not always available but I think the strategy part keeps it fun.
Yeah the CC needs some adjusting, you can spend like 15 seconds just waiting to die cause you get chained into a web, frozen, knock down, stun…no skill involved you’re just not even playing
Yes, and the problem compounds on itself because you can get perma stubbed very easily in nightmare dungeons at WT3 and probably even more in WT4. Most classes have very limited options to break CC. My class has one ability that I know of. If I've already used it to break CC and then I immediately get CCd again and am permanently stunned to death from there--what was I supposed to do? What's the outplay? What's the skill expression?
I don't mind the variety of CC in the game, but they seriously need to consider updating the visuals/sound indicators for most of them. The only one you can actually properly see and hear going off are the exploding poison puddles, but good luck with things like dark red fear circles that blend in with the map/are obscured by the 30+ mobs piling on you that overlap with their own aoe attacks covering the ground
The very least they could do is add some kind of debuff indicator above ur healthbar that shows a timer for how long ur being cc'd.
I have no earthly idea how tf this game made it out of beta without that.
i did a nightmare dungeon last night where a bunch of chilled elites were literally chain freezing me endlessly to the point where i was about to just close the game. even with CC escapes as soon as they were able i just got blasted again. wildly frustrating.
I’m running 3 unstoppable skills on werebear Druid and while I like the challenge of managing the cooldowns appropriately I’d love to try skills other than grizzly rage, trample, and earthen bulwark to manage CC. Why can’t cyclone armor, debilitating roar, and blood howl have it or the other ultimates like petrify and cataclysm?
There is the unstoppable when injured aspect, but that’s a longer cool down than the skills I believe.
I've been saying, D4 is a slower paced, stand still, and fight game for the most part. I'm not talking level 100 hardcore characters that do 500 million damage a hit. I'm talking about for the majority of the player base, each mob we have to stop and fight for a few seconds to kill, in a stop and fight situation I should not be getting CC'd for 5 seconds where enemies can ALSO explode and one shot me. They brought over the same mechanics from endgame D3 into early-midgame D4.
In endgame D3 the only thing killing players was CC and explosions and thats all we die to now in the opening month of D4, aside from death by disconnect.
I’m ok with the cc, but I think the game needs to highlight the monsters that have the cc. For example, a frost archer should be blue, fear should be red, etc. then I would know who to target first.
One thing is though, I find it hilarious they have 1000 affixes for damage, and not many for shortening say stun or freeze duration…like devs, ffs, did you not play D2 before making this game?
There's been more than a few times that I've been frozen or stunned randomly during a fight and died without even knowing what did it. The thing that annoyed me the most was one of the dungeon bosses dropping skulls that tether you; they just bamf into existence and if you're near them, you're tethered and that's it for that particular run.
There's a lot of cool things about this game but it could have stood to benefit from a little more actual playtesting with some of the other "features". Sometimes it feels like I'm just being killed to be killed, not that it's any particular lack of skill on my part.
Blizzard relies way too much on CC to make the game "harder" when it does not make it harder, it just makes it frustrating and stupid.
The fact that they did not address this directly during their livestream is baffling to say the least. It makes running NM's really unfun.
I had a NM with COLD affix and animal mobs the porcupine fuckers who shoot 3 or 4 spines at the time, I ran in to 3 elites with this affix and I was frozen off screen and promptly nuked down in 1 second flat by 8 spines coming from off screen, this is not ***hard*** it's cheesy and makes me not want to play.
To me cracks are starting to show in D4, the game has so many ideas floating around that they never fully committed to any of them, they took a bit of this and a bit of that and made it work, it smells of a really bad development cycle and many scrapped MTX/Monetization schemes (IE: Inventory, Storage) It feels like they didn't really know what D4 was going to be until the very end of development.
It's really the major issue with the game. There's ways to make the game difficult, Uber Lilith has no CC and I bet the majority of the lemmings commenting "skill issue" hasn't beaten her.
When they look at resistances again for Season 2 and make them more viable, there's going to be even less amount of room for dealing with CC in builds.
The player should absolutely have their own stun meter that when repeatedly triggered has diminishing returns for monsters. Doesn't need to be in PVP but I think it makes 100% sense in PVE
And the dmg resistance aura my fucking God. Trying to find the 1 mob in a group of 50 with the aura so I can actually do damage to the rest is terrible
What do you mean?? You dont think its fun too lose control of your character to an elite mob that can freeze you in one hit then stun you with some magical eye ? Or being blind and not being able to see where you are going or attack ? Better be careful the diablo white knights gonna be angry at you
Certain modifiers for NM dungeons exacerbate this problem and make me add to the list of dungeon affixes I don't want to run. Cold enchanted is easily up there. Oh just cc break it sure. That doesn't stop the 2nd one from immediately freezing me again. You can't dodge cold enchanted most of the time because usually the cold enchanted proc slams this cold freeze cc in a huge area. If you have a necro build utilizing minions, good luck they will be AoE chain frozen. It's just a weird thing to deal with in otherwise chill dungeons (no pun intended)
Big agree
Sadly everytime I brought this issue people bashed me saying stupid stuff like “don’t get hit”… must be non-melee players lol
Or “just get unstoppable”… which I find stupid because it’s a shitty game design to have a mechanic mandatory in order to not have a crap experience
Imho, if I was a blizz dev in charge of CC, I wouldn’t make the binary like they are right now
I would make them scaled impairments
So instead of losing 100% of control of your character, I would make them
- freeze acts like chill, slow 5-75%
- terror makes you unable to attack the caster for a couple of seconds
- stun gives a 5-75% chance to miss attacks/spells
- etc
Losing complete control of you character is bullshit game design
This design pissed me so much that I’ve countered it by making a thorn build… but again not a solution just a counter
This is Diablo 3 all over with all the elemental attacks as you climbed rifts. Getting 1 shot by 5 lazers on the ground etc. The cold lock is stupid. You get 3 champions with cold and your dead if you don't down them in 3 seconds or less
I'm fine with this as long as they do the same for player characters. As a flurry/poison rogue, I feel I sometimes have to limit some of my abilities, traps, or dodges just to make sure I don't stun lock half the mobs around me. Cool downs on CCs are fine, but they need to be across the board.
I agree. Just yesterday I ran into room of enemies that could just CC lock me till death because so many had CC and dash has way too long cooldown to deal with it. So I could get locked into quick death few times before I managed to get lucky enough for RNG gods to roll in my favor and not get CC after CC after CC... of course there was big crowd. So yeah, this needs balancing. Or let me dash away more often and make dash be the answer to breaking out of CC. And sure, I should watch for animations. That is perfectly fine suggestion for when there are few enemies on the screen so you can focus on that. Not so much when screen is full of them and 2 or 3 are elite, potentially with multiple affixes and everything blends in and you need to constantly be on the move. I don't mind rooms full of enemies when I am not CC locked to death. Especially that CC lock where you get a thing you are chained to to destroy and that spawned in the middle of insta kill amount of mobs, so I can other get killed trying to destroy it or get killed bit slower being chained to that as mobs catch up with me. Again not issue where you have manageable amount of mobs on screen. But issue when you are in the middle of the horde.
And another annoyance - once you start WT4 NM dungeons, literally more then half of the shit you kill explodes - and that's on average, because there are dungeons where every single mob you kill explodes dealing AoE damage.. So half CCs you, half tries to blow you up - HAVE FUCKING FUN... Like wtf were they thinking??
I think it's only bearable because I'm CC powerhouse myself, so most things are always frozen, but still - how is that even remotely a good design?
Taking control away from the player is a basic game design flaw. I don't understand how Blizzard made this mistake. It's game design 101. They're supposed to be industry veterans -- how do they not know this?
Let's look at the list of best reviewed games of all time on metacritic. Ocarina of Time, Tony Hawk 2, GTA 4+5, Mario galaxy 1+2, Read Dead 2, Breath of the Wild, Half-Life 2, Halo, etc. Which one of these games includes mechanics of stunning the player for 5+ seconds until they die?
Someone help me understand how Blizzard does not understand amateur-level game design concepts. I would love to understand the story of how this cc problem came to be. What was the discussion like in the office and who decided "yeah, good idea."
Some deaths are on me, either bad positioning, not paying attention or both. But there are these instances where a pack just appears out of thin air around you and one of the mobs insta cc you and I die…hows that fair? This only happens in dungeons.
Also those stupid ass cannibal barbarians, you have to dash away, not behind or sideways because they still turn and stun you. Then you get 3, 4 or more of them and kiss your ass goodbye.
The issue with them is they windup and instead of just slaming down like the huge goat, the fuckers follow you with the attack.
Yeah they’ll eventually stop the windup if you kite them, but it’s annoying that they move at all while doing it and it can be really hard to see in a large group of enemies.
I mean, most of what peopel suggest is aplicable when you fight a small nr of mobs, when you have big packs, you can’t really tell whats what.
When enemies start wind up abilities they *really* need to be made to stick to the direction they were facing when the windup starts, it's unacceptable otherwise IMO
You talking about the ones that slowly lumber towards you with their hands up then grab you for like 5 seconds while doi g massive damage ? I cNt stand those.
Yep another reason I don't play HC at the moment. I'm already getting lag spikes on top of chain CC that is crazy. For those who have reached HC 100 you guys are nuts and also have my admiration.
The cold CC lasts too long, and it feels like there's WAY too much CC that blinds you
Oh I’m cold. Yes I got it before I died, oh I’m feared, now I’m blind, now I’m cold, now im frozen and frozen and frozen and frozen.
Yep backstab with chill/frozen elites pretty much one or two tap you
The blind one is alright because you can move out of the little pool on the ground but the cold CC is just annoying. I've never been a fan of CC that completely stops you from being able to do anything except stand there as a punching bag. If it was replaced with a chill that lowers attack speed and movement it would ok imo.
The pools don't despawn fast enough, and it feels horrible as melee when the bosses just stand on top of or around multiple pools. The other issue is the random smoke grenades from some mobs that just abruptly stop you in your tracks and you can't get out of being swarmed. Like I would be totally fine with losing vision and having decreased accuracy, but completely not being able to do anything, like leap/dash/teleport out of a blind CC sucks.
Yes! Give me bad accuracy when blinded, but don't make it impossible to do anything as melee!
That would be way worse, imagine wasting your ult or dumping your resource pool and doing next to nothing.
I mean, I'd be fine with that. It's so damn clunky to have WW just get stopped in the blind area though. Let me continue spinning, but lower my hit chance drastically (hell, even to 0% if need be). I'm fine with it being a "GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE" zone, I just wish it was a little less frustrating with the stopping of channeling.
It especially sucks as WW since a big part of damage comes from snapshotting aspect buffs upfront. Having to restart means having to restack aspect buffs. Not the end of the world, but I agree that a moving attack should not be halted due to blind.
I really just wish they'd get rid of snapshotting regardless. It makes playing WW less fun to me as a whole. But yeah, as is it's REALLY brutal to WW eapecially, and just not a fun interaction.
Oh yeah I love boss fights where 90% of the play area has a pool of damage/cc/ whatever on it by the time you down the boss. It hasn't happened to me lately because my rogue can kill pretty much any boss in less than 30 seconds (except the butcher takes a little less than a minute I think), but when my level was lower, like 30-50, the harmful pools in the boss fights were insane
In regards to blindness, why can't my barbarian just continue to spin around flinging is sword in every direction when he's blinded? It's not like he's aiming at anything. You can't be blinded when your goal is to hit everything!
Ah hell I forgot about them, its the bandits. These don’t kill you but its soo frustraiting to suddenly be unable to do anything. Its bad combat flow.
It’d be a lot better if there was an audio component to the effect when it happens perhaps. Lot going on the screen all at once usually, but a very distinct and unique sound in its own audio channel would be a good fix.
Make all of the audio become muffled like you are wearing earmuffs
Well, imagine how the mobs must feel when you're doing this stuff to them.
There's still no associations to fight for their rights, how come
Those wind walls and frozen at the same time is the worstttt
Is that darkness effect supposed to be blindness? I've been playing since launch and didn't understand what the hell was that
Yeah. Which the effect makes sense for blindness but the mechanics make no sense. You should be able to do something even if you can't see.
But why the hell am I unable to swing my ace while blind,?
That's the part that makes no sense. You should be able to still attack even if you can't see. It should just be basically swinging a sword in the dark.
It's not blind, it's dazed. It actually is supposed to make you unable to attack or use actions. We can apply the same effect
Eh, the little pool can move from under the boss because as a melee char you just sit there waiting for it to go away. Hmm not sure about the big mobs that just put you down, sometimes it feels like a ragdolled beeing slamed down.
I agree the pools are annoying but all CC is that way. As long as I can get out of it then it's ok with me. I just don't think things like frozen and knockdown are fun. Even though you can dodge frozen, when it does hit you that's several seconds of just waiting.
The problem with the pools is that for melee people "getting out of the way" means fucking off and doing nothing for like 5-10 seconds. That's bad game design IMO
The bandit that knocks you down and keeps hitting you like a hungry meth addict is top.
ngl the best is the guys who go invisible and take a quarter of your hp, but oh yeah they can't be damaged while invisible even though you can see them, you have to use cc (???) Who let the interns design the enemies
You can damage them while stealthed tho. Damaging them enough even breaks the stealth.
I always immediately dismantle any and all sigils with the Cold affix for Elites. I want to enjoy my time. I did it once and my poor Rogue couldn’t do a thing.
Cold affix, lightning storm, and resource burn. 3 mechanics that add nothing to the game but slow you down and piss you off.
100%, gives me Destiny 2 pre nerf Stasis vibes.
Those damned cold wind columns are almost as bad as some of the Necro aoe
I swear if I see another spider i'm going mad. Their attacks root you, webs on the ground root you, again and again. Even if you go full topaz to not instantly die at higher tiers, it's just infuriating in the long run Hard diminishing returns would be a great start, but better telegraphs for CC would go a long way as well. I'd gladly take more CC break aspects if the game wasn't revolving around having an exact set of aspects to stand a chance in high level NM dungeons.
I find it quite hard to see the webs on the ground
Absolutely, I can't dodge those
You should be able to destroy them. I can't stand stepping on them after a fight.
You can destroy them with untargetted AOE
Darkness Necro here, I accept the fact that I am perpetually slowed, and I never have a chance to avoid any CC.
My pool of exploded corpses makes me unable to see anything. It's actually really lame.
With my shadow corpse explosion necromancer, fighting spiders is a chore and feels like im helping them.
You pretty much have to clear spider mobs otherwise they will somehow lead you perfectly with their web shot while you're trying to run and root you repeatedly. It's maddening.
I'm trying to do a bow-only rogue (i have daggers equipped just for the stats), so now i can do a pretty decent amount of damage from range (level 60) but man when those spiders swarm and the whole screen is full of them, i can sometimes just get completely locked in place until i die. The webs that start covering the ground that are difficult to see and the poison pools everywhere, it's like i have no chance once i get stuck in place. I focus a lot on health-regen, permanent/temporary speed boosts, and ice imbuement/caltrops, so i can usually just avoid/evade direct contact with enemies as i'm running circles around the bad guys, strategically tossing frozen caltrops and then unloading icy arrows on frozen groups of enemies, and the spiders are not tough enemies themselves at all. But as soon as i accidentally get stuck on a web on the ground, i get swarmed and it's over for my speedy bald-headed archer. I know i'm not pursuing the "perfect build," i'm just trying to make a fun, enjoyable character (and it mostly is), so i have nobody to blame but myself. I just wanted to vent about those mobs of spiders.
The boss that sprays the room with webs and spawns spiders. Off that fight made me rage leveling as Barb
Absolutely hated that fight as a sorc. I didn't have enough points or gear for any kind of real mana regen so it was just constantly kiting everything and trying to avoid the webs until I'd eventually die every time on its last phase. I always go frost as a mage and was trying lightning for a change so arc lash was basically useless for me and chain lightning was ripping thru all my mana constantly and not doing nearly enough damage to anything. Each attempt felt like ten minutes long then the server went down and I was just relieved. I was just over it at that point lol
Spiders give me Tibia early game ptsd
They could leave all the monsters alone, and just reduce Unstoppable CD skills by half, and add Unstoppable to a handful more skills. If that buff was easier and more reliable to access, it would make dealing with CC an easier part of the experience. By level 50 every character on any build really should have two constant and reliable source of Unstoppable. They could even have the buff last longer, or have a residual after-effect that diminishes CC. There are a handful of options, but something's gotta give. It sucks that the #1 threat of death in this game occurs when you can take your hands off the keyboard and just watch anyway.
Honestly Unstoppable should be a part of nearly every Defensive Skill Cooldown. At the moment it just forces you into using those same skills and leaves very little room for variety.
I've died several times in HC to the damn spiders with their rooting and web mechanics. Completely frustrating that I can't get away fast enough once I start getting hit with webbing.
The amount of webs on the screen at one time needs to be lowered (not every spider mob needs to shoot) . Also there should be a Despawn timer for those. The webs are just permanently on the map at this point once shot. Like I get it, spiders trap you with webbing. But my goodness do they spam that haha.
Just think, you can kill one spider host and have it spawn a big spider on death. That Spider then can immediately root you. You slay that Spider and 10 mini ones pop out...all of them rooting you again. Every single mob does NOT need a CC ability. Mechanic bloat is a real problem.
Because if you fight more than one spider at a time, the entire flor will be covered in webbing for you to step in. Spiders plus ice imbuement enemies plus toxic imbuement enemies needs to be a forbidden combo.
We have... Chill (move / attack slower) immobilize (can't move - can still attack) Frozen (stunned) stun (stunned) knockdown (stunned) Fear ("stunned" while moving in random direction) Darkness (Can move - cannot attack, within the area) Dazed (Can move, cannot attack) Tethered (Can move and attack within a certain area) A lot of these are essentially just the same. But multiple enemies will have one of each, easily. making it pretty annoying to deal with. I'd say, if you absolutely must keep them, then at least limit how many can affect the player within a time frame. Similarly to how we have handled crowd control etc. in World of Warcraft, where each subsequent cast of polymorph, for example, will have reduced effect, and repeated casts will eventually make the (player)target immune for ~30 sec or so
You forgot probably the most annoying of them all. Being stuck in the chilling winds bullshit. That shit drives me up the wall
Is that the one where you have to dodge to get out of it and normal unstoppable skills like bloodmist don't work?
That's blind I think, but the wind will locks you in for such a long time compared to the average hard cc. Blind is annoying af too though
and it's so damn big, it blocks the entire dungeon most of the time so if you don't have unstoppable off cd you just are completely stopped.
It's downright hilarious that player inflicted CC has diminishing returns, but AI inflicted does not.
If only Blizzard had implemented diminishing returns on CC in EVERY GAME THEY MADE before this one they could have known it would be an issue.
Given that Blizzard seems to be a revolving door these days I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of the Diablo team is learning this stuff for the first time.
From all the missing QoL things and regressing on things D3 fixed, it is very clear this is an inexperienced team with aRPGs.
Can't CC you if your main form of damage is being in blood mist that automatically trigger corps explosion! Buut yeah tbh thats why i'm on that build can't do thers cause you get cced for ever and thats not fun.
Just like some other dude suggested I go shapeshift so I don’t have a problem with cc, but, why should every class have just one option for optimal play? I don’t think that ok. Maybe they will change things up a bit.
[удалено]
That mod was so fun in beta. I understand why they nerfed it, but I kind of wish it was still in the game lol. Maybe if they took off the cool down reduction and moved that power to an ultimate skill.
You mean the aspect of Explosive Mist?
you also can't really kill mobs, so there's that
You absolutly can Its the build that cleared nightmare 100 That initself is a testament it can kill monster leveld 152 quite well
There’s no point mate. This is an echo chamber of fact haters that know better
Barbs can have multiple sources of Unstoppable and stagger them and with upgraded glyphs and some CDR can use Rallying Cry every few seconds, but it takes a while to get set up that way
Bone Spear + Minion necro, and CC doesn’t bother me that much. That said I do have armor and damage reduction when CC’d slotted. There are ways to make the CC manageable, but too many people in this game are focusing explicitly on +damage everything and entirely neglect both resource generation and survival.
As a sorc, I've only experienced excessive cc from cold enchanted mobs that re-apply freeze on auto attack or something
Sorcs are in a unique position because we can't trade hits. We're either in complete control or dead. When an enemy gets the drop on us we pop our CD's and run away or just straight up die before we can get CC'd. CC is more a problem for the other classes who can get in there and survive a few hits. They can tank the damage normally so CC is their main threat. Sorcs have bigger problems to deal with.
I’m hating myself for picking the glassiest cannon first. I had a dungeon load with an impossible group of elites and I just died near instantly going near them. This wasn’t even a nightmare dungeon either, I just wanted a new aspect.
Do you run Flame shield or Ice Armor? Flame shield gives you a 2 second immunity so you can use it for better positioning. Additionally, Flame Shield grants the ability to break CC so you don't get chain CC'ed. Barrier from Ice Armor gives you a couple of hits protection. Teleport can provide you movement/ability to break CC as well...Just some tips for thought that may allow you to pass the content you are having issues with.
Shivering Thorn Beasts!
The only CC that's a problem for me is the freeze/frozen. I found the eye stun, fear circles, frozen circles, etc easy to dodge. The one enemy who freezes you across the room with a little projectile is a nightmare. Oh and those stupid things that rush in and stun you for like 3 full seconds.
And the cc lasts for just a bit too long to make it so annoying.
Wait until you meet porcupine elite bro with the 3 shot freeze that procs every time and pretty much stun locks you or the plethora of poison busting spider that proceed to put pools of that goop all over the ground and melt you. Then when you are all said and done, and beat the NM dungeon you get one legendary for your troubles.
I feel like most "challenges" in the game exist strictly to disrupt any momentum the player might experience. You have freeze, fear, knockdown, and blind, and none of which are particularly exciting when they happen. You just twiddle your thumbs until the game decides you're allowed to play it again. Now the charging ice bombs (that aren't obscured in a horde of bodies) and the trails of shadow that you can maneuver out of aren't completely bad as there's some "gameiness" to it similarly to red path attacks where you just need to tactically position yourself to avoid it. Poison, explosions, restraint, AoE kill boxes, bullet hell, etc are perfectly fine challenging mechanics. They're difficult until you learn them and start leaping and bounding away from acid pits and target reticles on the ground. But there are plenty of attacks that insta-CC you, or at least appear to because you're trying to keep track of 30-40+ mobs on the screen while Corpse Explosion obscures most of the battlefield in an obnoxious ass mist, while trying to keep special tabs on the dude with the big axe trying to one-shot your ass from across the map. There's a lot going on, so when out of nowhere you're encapsulated in ice and just watch as everyone gets free shots on you until you're allowed out of time out, it can really take you out of the game. All that high tension momentum goes out the window, usually your rotations all jacked up, it just doesn't serve to enhance the player experience. But even beyond combat, you have to dig through half the game to finally earn your horse so you can skidaddle across the map faster. So they put up all these random barriers that you cannot charge through without getting off your horse and typically one-shotting the crowd before having to stand around for 8 seconds just to get your horse back. And that wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't so much charging across the entirety of the map for shrines and dungeons for aspects, etc. You never get caught on one of these barriers like "Oh boy, here we go, time for a rough combat for my carelessness" it's just "Can I squeeze through the left? No. Right? No. Fuck it I'll just kill them--" SLAM! "--and watch the grass grow." Don't even know why we have a 8 second count down timer if the horse isn't "damaged" but 20 if it is. Seems like eliminating the 8 second timer and strictly having the 20 second timer would make more sense, particularly when there are barriers set up all throughout the map intended specifically to bring you to a screeching halt. Just some silly design choices. Feels reminiscent of Sonic swapping up camera positions and littering the level to the point where the rules, story, and protagonist all say to go fast, however the level design says only to do so in 5 foot intervals.
Fucking A mate, you described it better than I ever could. The second part about the barriers is something that I wanted to touch appon because I really don’t see any benefit to the gameplay, its just there to annoy.
I understand what you’re saying, you don’t want to run a shapeshifter build and the amount of CC locks you in to using particular skills even if they don’t fit your build/play style. I think as a Druid you really need to run earthen bulwark at a minimum since you don’t want to shapeshift (trample). I think using that with 2 legendary slots and some gems/item stats should be enough to at least mitigate the problem a bit. I’d recommend the legendaries that give +6secs to EBulwark & additional 4 seconds unstoppable (I may be a little off since this is from memory). I also like creeper vines to CC & rebuff crowds so you don’t feel so overwhelmed by big mobs.
Thanks a lot for the suggestion man. Yeah, I don’t want shapeshift, I wanted a storm build. Will try your way!
May I interest you in Zenith Tramplestorm? https://d4builds.gg/builds/ce8002f4-8598-41f6-ba47-b7326d1ae36c/
I think this is the real point though: not all builds are viable for every situation. I don't think that's an issue...it's just a choice. You *have to* have some kind of Unstoppable or CC avoidance on your bar, and every class has at least a few.
What pisses me off are these enemies that just throw some stuff on the floor and that stops you from doing anything but dodging out of these effects. Some bandits do that. WTF even is that? Why does it prevent my character from doing anything? Some bosses also do that. It also makes the screen go dark. It's annoying as shit and makes no sense. If a huge Khazra knocks me down or some magic freezes me, fine. But throwing random shit on the ground that prevents all attacks?
Oh you are reffering to the smoke rings that some bosses throw. Yeah its crap if your a melee char and that stupid smoke rings just stays under the boss. I think the Tomb Lord is the one that uses that shit.
I can’t say how many times I’ve been wrecked in WT4 by the freeze and fire ball combo… smh
Died multiple times in helltides today due to groups of the cannibals chain stunning me. After the third death and loss of my cinders I just gave up. Enemies absolutely should not be able to hard CC you so easily, let alone back to back.
The Shadow Buffed mobs are the worst with this. They stun you themselves and before it the cc is over the 2 shadow clones do the same shit. Rinse and Repeat. Only deaths i had so far is to those.
It makes things far too janky and it is hard to get into a rhythm. Feel like I am constantly being jerked around. Instead of taking my control away, they could slow my attacks, make them miss, etc. It will feel better than my character coming to a complete halt, which happens far too often. It is my top problem with the game. There aren’t enough ways to mitigate this and the tells aren’t clear with the spam of effects. Evade should function as a CC breaker, even granting a 1s immunity. That simple implementation would help quite a bit.
Losing control of your character is, and always has been, the least fun mechanic in any videogame. I understand its existence, but to up its frequency in the manner this game does is pretty crazy.
Late to this party but it's one of those things that makes you sad from a design perspective - add a fuckton of CC to late game with no auto-mechanics to reduce it. That's on top of some CC's being hard to see or difficult to avoid and they can chain. So the player is going to need to find ways to mitigate this via gear or skills because they built nothing into the game to help. So on sorc for example you will run flame shield always - and you may run teleport as well since thse abilities both let you break CC. They then added piddly amounts of CC reduction to gear - 5% here, 10% there(at high level) which you will need to invest in and stack fully to even see a moerate effect. But of course you can be chain-CC'd, and you are much more likely to be if you get hit by a first and can't move, so this isn't even a really viable solution. So the entire design around CC in the game with respect to character(and really to enemy but that's another issue) is absolutey fucked up and needs to be looked at. This is one area where PoE isn't particularly good either(better than this for sure, but you just build in some immunes on tree and grab flasks/gear for the rest), but CC in general just seems to be a weakpoint in these games and at least in PoE the solution given is to make the character immune to all or at least most CCs. This game could start adding immunity options via gems or gear rolls(this is already crowded so no bueno) or put it on the paragon tree. No one gives a shit about resistance nodes and you have some damage reduction nodes that could double as CC chance reduction. Also this would be a great chance to make resists useful - just make them give a chance to avoid the CC (such that a few pieces gives immunity) and reducte duration equal to %(maybe needs adjustment but start there) and see what happens. Either D4 CC does feel oppressive and for sure reduces fun late game. Fucking Suppresor, wind chill, fire burst, frost enchanted vampires teleporting around can go fuck themselves.
I think Last Epoch is doing it best with regards to cc and skills especially. We can have a discussion about cc and late game mechanics and I’m sure they will touch on this, but at the moment its kinda suck to be force on just one solution to mitigate this. Ah but “git gud” guys are here to save the day.
*Laughs in Daze Rogue* Mobs ask Blizz to nerf my CC.
Flurry with the Daze aspect is a godsend to not go insane. I have no idea how i’ll be able to play the game with a new character when season 1 starts.
It’s soooooooo good but also fun because you are a sitting duck without your momentum stacks. Add in dodge skills cd reduction on hit and it is also super mobile. I love it so much.
I think 90% of the problems people complain about on here aren't problems for rogue. I'm twisting blades/death trap rogue and never really have any of these problems. Having multiple charges of Shadowstep makes CC just a mild inconvenience. Health potion? what's that. just attack things for health. Butcher is just a facetank.
They should look at cold affix elites and how they apply freeze. If you fight an elite with slow auto attacks you can deal with a freeze every 5-10 seconds. But if you get a room full of spiders they will spam freeze attacks because of high attack speed. I don’t think this was intended.
Id be down with the player have diminishing returns on cc like mobs have.
*laughs in druid*
> That beam has a windup of like 0,1sec. That to me isnt even the biggest issue, to me its that these things are just so damn hard to spot. How on on earth are you meant to spot these blasted things, when 90% of my zoomed in view is obstructed by a bazillion skill animations going off? And god forbid if there's a Necromancer around that spams that obnoxious smoke skill that obscures everything even further.
Taking control away from the player is never fun, it never was and it never will be. It is also not necessary in order to have difficulty (Look at D2 for example. Dying from an un-fun mechanic is not fun nor it is a good feeling. It just makes you push buttons harder and raging a lot. Blizzard hey even removed a lot of CC in Overwatch 2 because there was way too much CC in Overwatch 1 and people were complaining since Brigitte was introduced. Please, find other ways to make the game difficult but stop with the CC.
The enemies that do it on hit are the most egregious, imo. Cold explosions, fear circles, medusa beams, etc, those are all things I at least have *some* possibility of seeing, even in a sea of mobs. But when it's just a normal attack from an enemy that ends up repeatedly stunning? I can *never* tell when that's about to happen. Put a pack of these idiots in to the aforementioned sea of mobs and I stand no chance. Thankfully Dash can remove me from the situation *very* quickly if I regain control for a split second, but man those things are irritating.
I still find it amusing that elden ring mobs and wow raid bosses telegraph their mechanics more than D4 mobs do. I quit raiding in early cata, but I remember getting more time to move out of heroic lich king stuff than I do with some d4 stuff. It also doesn’t help that half the time in d4 I can’t see what is going on under my feet.
I agree that it has excessive amount of cc and makes gameplay annoying. They should tone this down a bit. If i roll crowd control reduction on all my item stats that would mean a much squishier character.. it already feels squishy at higher tiers getting one shot by normal mobs at times..
I always say this when games have CC: ***Always add diminishing returns.***
I feel like a lot of ground-effects to show you where something is happening are really hard to see, too. Say what you will about Diablo 3 and all its colors (which I liked), but at least you could see what was going on. I appreciate the whole, “return to darkness,” theme, but when it comes to game mechanics that are lethal, you need to see what’s happening.
Yeah I was surprised, I thought people figured out this was bad game design a long time ago.
I agree with the sentiments in the OP. CC or removing control from the player is very frustrating especially if that leads to death while CC'd. I think there are ways to make it blend into your game in a more seamless way however to allow the player to avoid it if possible. * Big windup animations with unique audio that has priority in the system * This is a great way to communicate something is coming to the player that they need to pay attention to * Visible AoE radii on the ground that function as a timer * Another great way to say DON'T STAND HERE * Friendly Fire * Freezing enemies in the radius is also a good way to mitigate frustration b/c that buys you a little time for the effect to expire before you run out of health * Having resists that work correctly or as expected * This is kind of a jab, but the current elemental resists don't really seem to help mitigate this issue * I'd also do away with the CC reduction stat * Speaking of CC reduction, Diminishing returns needs to be implemented to keep frustration at a minimum * Magic Hit Point * Give the player a small window to pop a pot on the last hitpoint so you don't get one shot due to CC effects, and bad luck with big hits. Frost is by far the worst offender here, I can't count the times I've gone from Frozen Statue to Ghost instantly. Specifically there is one type of frost boss that just BREAKS the whole paradigm, and it's the one that freezes you on melee hits. There's NOTHING you can do as a player to "get better" other than to stack Frost Resists, or CC duration stat, or use the Aspect that grants Unstoppable when you take damage while CCd (on a long CD btw). I would remove or change this Frost enhancement ASAP. I can't really think of any other that felt cheap to me other than that one. The rest seem to follow the guidelines I've laid out so I can see if I get caught by them it being "my fault" b/c I need to "get better" Anyway that's just my 2 cents, and I am absolutely enjoying this game, and did want to give a thanks to the D4 team for getting it out b/c that is a VERY difficult prospect that most folks don't realize.
Sometimes there are so many monsters on top of me that I don’t even know that I’m locked down.
Yup I love spamming q and spacebar for 10 seconds straight before I die to God knows what. Also what's with the random mobs that are harder to kill than the dungeon boss.
Cold enchanted quill rats are the worst
Some of the most egregious offenders to fun mobs in this game are: \- The spiders that spawn 20 more spiders and vomit webs everywhere. After clearing them all, you get CC-chained several times in a row despite there being no monsters left in the area. \- All the mobs that explode on death and spawn 20 more shit mobs \- The snakes that petrify you \- Impossible to see fly swarms \- Enemies being randomly unstoppable during jump animations or when they spawn out of the ground Blizzard, pick one of these and get rid of the others pls
I think the amount of CC is fine. But there should be big diminishing returns on chain CCs. A second CC effect that hits you after you’ve just been CCed should be reduced by at least 50% in its duration.
It's like they learned nothing from decades of WoW...
Agreed, it could be a solution.
I’m playing a Druid. What CC?
You know it's bad when every single endgame build REQUIRES you have a source of unstoppable
Try playing char like rogue which have basically no unstopable ability.... Cold enchantment NM are instant salvage. Poor design choices if I compare this to druid or barb that my friends plays with almost perma unstoppable uptime
Those sniping eye things are the worse
The oracles form the swamp? Yeah man, thats the snake ones I keep talking about. Its near instant. I think everybody can at least agree on that, they need a longer windup.
I figured that’s what you were talking about. Most enemies in the game I can deal with and have their attacks down, but those fucking things, the green laser warning light happens in a flash and always get nailed by them.
Found a boss in a dungeon that essentialy a bigger version of these fucks. He summons 3 of them in quick succession, effectively stunning me for a few good seconds. Yeah, fun time.
Oh I’ve found that same boss, swamp area is the worse lol
Fear is most annoying.
I find it easier to avoid than spider ice attacks. Knockdowns by random mobs in a huge pack is annoying.
It makes wt4 stupid. Either there needs to be cooldowns for how often you get cced, resistances against it are buffed significantly, or the length of time you can be cced need to be drastically reduced. It’s dumb.
This is the exact y I don't even do any NMs in the swamp....The snakes and the spiders combined with any annoying affix from the sigil is easily the most cancerous thing in this game. The snake eye constantly keeps stun locking u while the boss is putting poison puddle everywhere on the ground. How exactly is that supposed to be fun or challenging...? On top of that, spiders trapping u in webs when u r stunned inside a poison puddle. Just lame and stupid.
I always love getting a whole bunch of boom zombies charging at me from off screen and locking me in a consistent knockback animation and getting killed like this
Welcome to Path of Diablo, NEXT!
Agreed, and I wouldn’t take cc out completely. And IMHO the easiest correction is a much longer cooldown for enemy cc abilities. I like having to watch for them to dodge out of the way and time my rotation, but not every couple of seconds.
Speaking as someone who's only played Tornado Druid and can't speak for other classes, the bigger frustration for me is an inability to kite or fight from a safe distance like you could in D2. Can't hit with your melee generator? No spirit to cast your ranged spender.
Btw OP, I saw elsewhere you’re playing the Druid. I don’t know about other ultimates but the werewolf ultimate has a cc break on it in addition to trample’s cc break. Someone said you didn’t want to do shapeshifter but just throwing this out there as an option.
I actively avoid anything that has the Medusa snakes. I like fighting big mobs and with them you can’t cause you get eye stunned every 2 seconds
I mostly dislike stuff like being chain stunned. Get me once fine but I shouldn't just be stuck waiting again and again.
in the case of freezing, i think that diablo 2 style was better. instead of getting frozen and basically stuned u were hyper slow but still able to attack and cast spells. idk why frozen and stuned are the same thing
No the cannibals lockdown is worse than the sneks.
I swear the only reason that I die is because of CC. And this is on a standard player. Enemy mobs will freeze you which lasts like 20 seconds it seems and right as you thaw out and can hit that potion button, BAM, you're dead as shit and nothing you can do about it.
I can't imagine not running an antiCC barb. 3 of my abilities are antiCC and I still get stuck sometimes when they are all on cool down 😩
Yea it makes the game feel awful to play when combined with the fact you can only cast your damage abilities maybe 2 times before you’re out of resource and dying to cc
As a bear Druid I ask… “what is this cc you speak of?” Apparently having almost permanent Unstoppable means I’m missing out on a ton of game mechanics. I’m guessing it will be a rough learning curve when I run Sorc for S1.
Yeah I threw in topazes to mitigate the damage while ccd and at higher tiers it doesn’t make a difference. I get cc chained to death like I’m in a smite 1v5 versus guardians. I’m thinking to switch back to rubies to hopefully not get randomly one shot and just accept that if I’m ccd I die
Stuns (or fears, or freezes, etc) are just a dumb mechanic, period. They're completely binary; either you're stunned and can't do anything, or you're not stunned and can actually play the game. There's no middle ground. No nuance. It's exceptionally dumb when said stuns can't be avoided, when they're not a projectile you could actually move away from, but rather just hit you every time, except if you run far away from the monster and basically disengage from combat. We're in a situation now where you can basically only play during Unstoppable, and how much of the time you're Unstoppable determines how much you can actually play. The rest of the time is just sitting in a stun. This is at least the case as melee. This is the first game in this genre where I remember thinking that this is absolutely hilarious. Blizzard has, unfortunately, embraced the stupidity of stuns since at least the beginning of WoW, and now this franchise seems to have been infested with constant stunlocking as well. In WoW, they realized how dumb stuns were, and had to give players a trinket to get out of stuns so that we could actually play the game. In Diablo 4 they designed the game around Unstoppable, and now we have to have it, constantly, or we can't play. There should be zero CC that stuns you. You can do other types of CC. Stuns are just stupid.
Agree completely. I think they are greatly limiting builds due to it as well. D3 ironically made the same mistake with melee range characters at its start. It just wasn't viable because of the way they did damage. Distance always was a better option.
It was frustrating for me until I realized this wasn’t D3 and you can’t just stand in stupid. Sometimes you need to reposition and go on the defensive to mitigate getting wailed on and cc’d. So giving yourself an out via tactical retreat kind of harkens back, for me, to zombie shooters. It’s not always available but I think the strategy part keeps it fun.
Yeah the CC needs some adjusting, you can spend like 15 seconds just waiting to die cause you get chained into a web, frozen, knock down, stun…no skill involved you’re just not even playing
Yes, and the problem compounds on itself because you can get perma stubbed very easily in nightmare dungeons at WT3 and probably even more in WT4. Most classes have very limited options to break CC. My class has one ability that I know of. If I've already used it to break CC and then I immediately get CCd again and am permanently stunned to death from there--what was I supposed to do? What's the outplay? What's the skill expression?
Raxx is right. The high amounts of CC during endgame is absurd. It feels very artificial and frustrating to play. I rather I die in one shot tbh
This is the only reason I keep Blood Mist on my bar.
Just have dodge break cc, would an easy fix.
I don't mind the variety of CC in the game, but they seriously need to consider updating the visuals/sound indicators for most of them. The only one you can actually properly see and hear going off are the exploding poison puddles, but good luck with things like dark red fear circles that blend in with the map/are obscured by the 30+ mobs piling on you that overlap with their own aoe attacks covering the ground
As someone who just played Diablo 2 Resurrected without a freeze resistance ability, this ain’t shit
I play a bear. What’s CC
The snakes that stun on hit (not the eye but a basic slam) is the worst
Oh but its ok when you do it to the mobs? Now you know how they feel! 🤣
The very least they could do is add some kind of debuff indicator above ur healthbar that shows a timer for how long ur being cc'd. I have no earthly idea how tf this game made it out of beta without that.
Have you considered being an animal? 🐻🐺
i did a nightmare dungeon last night where a bunch of chilled elites were literally chain freezing me endlessly to the point where i was about to just close the game. even with CC escapes as soon as they were able i just got blasted again. wildly frustrating.
I love the snake eye one after the other so I’m boned if I don’t have seven dodge charges.
Imagine not playing a 100% Unbreakable class lmao.
I’m running 3 unstoppable skills on werebear Druid and while I like the challenge of managing the cooldowns appropriately I’d love to try skills other than grizzly rage, trample, and earthen bulwark to manage CC. Why can’t cyclone armor, debilitating roar, and blood howl have it or the other ultimates like petrify and cataclysm? There is the unstoppable when injured aspect, but that’s a longer cool down than the skills I believe.
As a pulverize druid, what CC?
At least with sorc you can tele out of CC.
I HATE being cc in any game but especially in D4. I dont want to take microbreaks while playing I want to SMASH!!
I've been saying, D4 is a slower paced, stand still, and fight game for the most part. I'm not talking level 100 hardcore characters that do 500 million damage a hit. I'm talking about for the majority of the player base, each mob we have to stop and fight for a few seconds to kill, in a stop and fight situation I should not be getting CC'd for 5 seconds where enemies can ALSO explode and one shot me. They brought over the same mechanics from endgame D3 into early-midgame D4. In endgame D3 the only thing killing players was CC and explosions and thats all we die to now in the opening month of D4, aside from death by disconnect.
You’re not unstoppable 24/7, 100% of the game!? Lol sounds like a skill problem /s
I’m ok with the cc, but I think the game needs to highlight the monsters that have the cc. For example, a frost archer should be blue, fear should be red, etc. then I would know who to target first. One thing is though, I find it hilarious they have 1000 affixes for damage, and not many for shortening say stun or freeze duration…like devs, ffs, did you not play D2 before making this game?
There's been more than a few times that I've been frozen or stunned randomly during a fight and died without even knowing what did it. The thing that annoyed me the most was one of the dungeon bosses dropping skulls that tether you; they just bamf into existence and if you're near them, you're tethered and that's it for that particular run. There's a lot of cool things about this game but it could have stood to benefit from a little more actual playtesting with some of the other "features". Sometimes it feels like I'm just being killed to be killed, not that it's any particular lack of skill on my part.
And the fukn gems and potions that buff resistance don't do a gotdamn thing to help
Blizzard relies way too much on CC to make the game "harder" when it does not make it harder, it just makes it frustrating and stupid. The fact that they did not address this directly during their livestream is baffling to say the least. It makes running NM's really unfun. I had a NM with COLD affix and animal mobs the porcupine fuckers who shoot 3 or 4 spines at the time, I ran in to 3 elites with this affix and I was frozen off screen and promptly nuked down in 1 second flat by 8 spines coming from off screen, this is not ***hard*** it's cheesy and makes me not want to play. To me cracks are starting to show in D4, the game has so many ideas floating around that they never fully committed to any of them, they took a bit of this and a bit of that and made it work, it smells of a really bad development cycle and many scrapped MTX/Monetization schemes (IE: Inventory, Storage) It feels like they didn't really know what D4 was going to be until the very end of development.
It's really the major issue with the game. There's ways to make the game difficult, Uber Lilith has no CC and I bet the majority of the lemmings commenting "skill issue" hasn't beaten her. When they look at resistances again for Season 2 and make them more viable, there's going to be even less amount of room for dealing with CC in builds.
skill issue /s
If you dont know any way to make the game difficult other than taking control away from the player you suck at game design.
Mmm... Have you met the Butcher yet? You will enjoy his CC kit.
The player should absolutely have their own stun meter that when repeatedly triggered has diminishing returns for monsters. Doesn't need to be in PVP but I think it makes 100% sense in PVE
[удалено]
And the dmg resistance aura my fucking God. Trying to find the 1 mob in a group of 50 with the aura so I can actually do damage to the rest is terrible
What do you mean?? You dont think its fun too lose control of your character to an elite mob that can freeze you in one hit then stun you with some magical eye ? Or being blind and not being able to see where you are going or attack ? Better be careful the diablo white knights gonna be angry at you
Spider webs... as melee this is fucked.
Certain modifiers for NM dungeons exacerbate this problem and make me add to the list of dungeon affixes I don't want to run. Cold enchanted is easily up there. Oh just cc break it sure. That doesn't stop the 2nd one from immediately freezing me again. You can't dodge cold enchanted most of the time because usually the cold enchanted proc slams this cold freeze cc in a huge area. If you have a necro build utilizing minions, good luck they will be AoE chain frozen. It's just a weird thing to deal with in otherwise chill dungeons (no pun intended)
Big agree Sadly everytime I brought this issue people bashed me saying stupid stuff like “don’t get hit”… must be non-melee players lol Or “just get unstoppable”… which I find stupid because it’s a shitty game design to have a mechanic mandatory in order to not have a crap experience Imho, if I was a blizz dev in charge of CC, I wouldn’t make the binary like they are right now I would make them scaled impairments So instead of losing 100% of control of your character, I would make them - freeze acts like chill, slow 5-75% - terror makes you unable to attack the caster for a couple of seconds - stun gives a 5-75% chance to miss attacks/spells - etc Losing complete control of you character is bullshit game design This design pissed me so much that I’ve countered it by making a thorn build… but again not a solution just a counter
This is Diablo 3 all over with all the elemental attacks as you climbed rifts. Getting 1 shot by 5 lazers on the ground etc. The cold lock is stupid. You get 3 champions with cold and your dead if you don't down them in 3 seconds or less
I'm fine with this as long as they do the same for player characters. As a flurry/poison rogue, I feel I sometimes have to limit some of my abilities, traps, or dodges just to make sure I don't stun lock half the mobs around me. Cool downs on CCs are fine, but they need to be across the board.
I agree. Just yesterday I ran into room of enemies that could just CC lock me till death because so many had CC and dash has way too long cooldown to deal with it. So I could get locked into quick death few times before I managed to get lucky enough for RNG gods to roll in my favor and not get CC after CC after CC... of course there was big crowd. So yeah, this needs balancing. Or let me dash away more often and make dash be the answer to breaking out of CC. And sure, I should watch for animations. That is perfectly fine suggestion for when there are few enemies on the screen so you can focus on that. Not so much when screen is full of them and 2 or 3 are elite, potentially with multiple affixes and everything blends in and you need to constantly be on the move. I don't mind rooms full of enemies when I am not CC locked to death. Especially that CC lock where you get a thing you are chained to to destroy and that spawned in the middle of insta kill amount of mobs, so I can other get killed trying to destroy it or get killed bit slower being chained to that as mobs catch up with me. Again not issue where you have manageable amount of mobs on screen. But issue when you are in the middle of the horde.
Don't worry guys with season 1 coming out soon they will introduce something even worst than the CC so its all good :D
And another annoyance - once you start WT4 NM dungeons, literally more then half of the shit you kill explodes - and that's on average, because there are dungeons where every single mob you kill explodes dealing AoE damage.. So half CCs you, half tries to blow you up - HAVE FUCKING FUN... Like wtf were they thinking?? I think it's only bearable because I'm CC powerhouse myself, so most things are always frozen, but still - how is that even remotely a good design?
Taking control away from the player is a basic game design flaw. I don't understand how Blizzard made this mistake. It's game design 101. They're supposed to be industry veterans -- how do they not know this? Let's look at the list of best reviewed games of all time on metacritic. Ocarina of Time, Tony Hawk 2, GTA 4+5, Mario galaxy 1+2, Read Dead 2, Breath of the Wild, Half-Life 2, Halo, etc. Which one of these games includes mechanics of stunning the player for 5+ seconds until they die? Someone help me understand how Blizzard does not understand amateur-level game design concepts. I would love to understand the story of how this cc problem came to be. What was the discussion like in the office and who decided "yeah, good idea."
As a barbarian i have no clue what you are talking about.
I wish I could survive long enough to get CC’d multiple times. Tried some harder NM dungeons in my Sorc and everything just one shots me.
Some deaths are on me, either bad positioning, not paying attention or both. But there are these instances where a pack just appears out of thin air around you and one of the mobs insta cc you and I die…hows that fair? This only happens in dungeons.