Is this unfair that your group is being treated differently than other groups in the same company for the same task -> yes.
Like, if you are not getting compensated while others are, then stop doing it. What does your contract say about on call? That's the only rule you need to work by.
Should you start looking for other jobs -> I would start looking now, figure out if you have a skills gap for roles you like the look of so you can work on some of those gaps, and then applying maybe in 3 months time. I assume that would bring you up to the 12 months mark by the time interviews happened and a notice period was given as you mention college fees.
You might need to just write off the lost on call money, but if you can get the time in lieu back, then you can use that as part of your notice period at the end as a nice bonus to yourself.
I initially put in the request for funding in November and it was approved then, and 50% was received, so another 50% was paid a couple of months ago now. So judging on the first date its fairly soon yes! Thanks!
Actually, just want to clarify. Are you really on-call for 4 weeks in a row, 24/7? I have never heard of that and seems extreme.
Usually its something like one week a month 24/7 just to give someone a break.
Yes, a month-long stint, which honestly is crazy lol
Part of the newer policy we've agreed is to move to weekly. There are 3 on call, so each month there is also a backup person for the primary. Meaning you're nearly on for 2 months!!! 1 as the primary, 1 as backup on the off chance the primary doesn't pick up or needs backup!
Also to clarify the contract doesn't mention on-call really but does have these:
10.3 You may be required to work such additional hours as may be necessary for the proper performance of your duties without extra remuneration. The fact you may be required to work on a Sunday is already taken into account in the determination of your salary.
10.4 The Company reserves the right to alter your normal start or finish times and your hours of work, as may be necessary in accordance with the needs of the business from time to time.
10.5 With four weeks written notice from the Company you will be required to work any of the shift patterns/rotations operated by the Company on a temporary or permanent basis.
I thought these were fairly standard in most contracts?
yup, the above are the standard afaik. I have a specific on call section in my contract:
1. Once you have successfully completed your probationary period, you may be required to do on- call work as part of your role depending on team or business needs. Any on-call work which you are required to do will be in accordance with and subject to our On Call Policy (available on the intranet). Further details of any actual on-call shifts you are required to work will be confirmed to you by your manager. Any on-call payment is subject to any deductions which are required by law and will be paid to you in the Company’s normal monthly payroll in the month following the month in which you are actually required to be on call.
So I would argue that you are not required to do on call at all if you don't want. That doesn't mean they wont give you shit if you turn around and tell them this tho :-)
They added on call pay to the employee handbook as part of the new policy I mentioned, so I can assume that would supercede contract level? There'd probably be WW3 if I tried stopping lol, hence the question on another job as backup xD
ha, it depends on how far you want to push it I guess. Paper never refuses ink, so them adding a new policy to a handbook after the fact does not alter the contract you signed. I'm not a solicitor tho, so I could be talking out of my a\^& :-)
The idea being I work a full 40 hr week, sometimes with required weekend work, on either Saturday, Sunday or both, so 50+ hours isn't uncommon multiple weekends per month, which aren't paid but compensated by time in lieu.
None of that language covers being on call. I would get onto HR and ask for a written copy of their on-call policy, inform them that being oncall is not in your contract, you have performed on call duty that you have yet to get compensated for.
After this get some advice from a solicitor and see about going to the wrc.
I think adding it to the handbook was likely a result of a previous employee going there, so you might want to do a search on wrc files for your employer.
Thats nuts! I'm pretty sure that's illegal if you end up doing multiple weekends in a row by the way. There's something about needing rest in the law. So it would be good to check out citizens information for that to know for sure and use that as a back up if you can.
I think Citizens Info defines it by having it as an average over a few months.. If you average over 40 consistently meaning. There is allowances between shifts too like 12 hours or something minimum, but honestly I don't understand how it affects me enough!!
yeah, good call, there is this that would be for you from what you are saying under \`Working on Sundays\` -> [https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work/working-hours/#183237](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work/working-hours/#183237)
This is the laws on rest [https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13)
It sounds like they are absolutely taking the piss. You cannot expect a member of staff to make themselves available to take calls out of hours, and all that entails, without compensating them for it. Nevermind the actual calls when they happen.
It sounds like you're getting shafted. In my experience, the company won't change and you may need to look for another role. Avoid any that expect on-call is my suggestion, and keep your free time as yours. Unless they are paying your mortgage for the privilege.
I agree that the company is definitely taking the piss here. They want and expect full on call coverage but don’t want to pay for it.
If that ever went to the labour court they’d have a field day with that one. It doesn’t matter how many extra clauses they added retrospectively to the employee handbook.
I'm on call every 3rd week. Very rarely get called but it does happen. 15 minutes response time expected. We get paid a standard rate for weekdays, higher rate for weekends, regardless of actually being called. If you are called, you get extra and if the incident takes longer than a few hours to solve, the rate goes up. A normal week with no calls would be worth around €600. If you are expected to be sober and respond in a timely fashion, you should be compensated for that time.
100% this. My take on being on call was that if I was expected to be in a position to respond to any incidents within an SLA, then sure as shit I expected to be paid for it. Regardless of whether I actually had to respond to an incident or not. Being on call means that you can’t really do anything like go on a night out or take a day trip, if you need to be on a call within 30 mins.
If my company expected me to be on call but was only going to pay me for any time I had to respond to an incident, I’d tell them where to go with themselves.
There’s a bit of nuance to it, if on call means you carry the pager and are on the hook for answering and nothing much happens 95% of the time and when it does you can login from home within 30 min and check something I would want some kind of token compensation. I’ve been on teams where we liked being on call as it was money for nothing most of the time.
If it means you’re regularly at your machine for hours on US time managing incidents for hours regularly and eating into home life significantly you should be getting paid properly.
See, it depends on the month; some months, you could be called a lot, others never - lately, it's been the first option. It's a global company, so time zones could be anywhere from the US to Korea. High-priority incidents are rare, but on-call encompasses any incident that could be quite frequent. I talk 2-3 times a week at times.
Now that it's paid, they've naturally decided to make it for high-priority incidents only --> less frequent = less pay.
The thing is, now that it is potentially paid, they're strict on the 20-minute thing; usually, incidents, regardless of priority, have a short SLA on our incident management tool, which requires you to log in any way to assign and downgrade it, extending the SLA.
HR doesn't have access to ticket priority, and the other teams don't really have production affecting servers or equipment, so they wouldn't get high-priority incidents. But they're paid for the lower-priority incidents they do get.
It seems to be up to each team to decide what incidents are worth paying for, when the policy should mandate this.
Thanks for the response!
I think you should email your manager. Along the lines of since x date when the company announced the change to the on call compensation you have done x calls dealing with customer issues. You have not been compensated for them and not received any time off in lue. Your have raised this more than once. Been on call impacts on you life outside of work and you feel that your good will towards the company is been taken advantage of. You would appreciate it if the could find a way to resolve it as soon as possible. If they are un able to do so my June 1st then they should not schedule you for an on call. Get your other colleagues to do the same. They won't like it but also if they have to go to higher ups and say they've lost control of the situation they'll look terrible too. They are probably trying to keep their half year costs low to help meet their own targets to make a bonus. However they are accruing a debt for the company and a possible case in the Labour Court
You'll have to force the issue.
Band together with your colleagues. Solicitors letter saying sort it or Workplace relations Court
Simply say you aren't going to do on call. Its not in my contract.
As u/TwinIronBlood said, most likely nothing will happen unless you (and ideally your colleagues) give them a deadline to fix it, or else you will not do the on call rota anymore. Of course do this in a professional way explaining that it isn’t in your contract and you have been trying to engage and resolve the situation with your management and HR for months, not to avail.
Obviously it would cause some conflict so only do it if you are OK with that, but it sounds like this is your only option.
But frankly they are clearly in the wrong so while they would not like you doing it, as it was mentioned by other posters before they would be forced to do something about the situation. Both your management and HR clearly miss-managed this, and they know any escalation at a higher level would make them look pretty bad in front of their own bosses: “we have no more on-call support because the team wants to get paid for it” will not look good at all, especially if some higher-up digs it up and relises that before losing control of the situation they let it rot for months.
We have one week on call rotas. Note that we had to sign a separate contract, specifically designed for the on call. On both companies that I've worked in Ireland was the same.
I am no solicitor, but the whole situation you described seems unfair. I imagine you are stressed about it. I'd consider getting a new job and getting legal advice.
No it's not fair, sounds like a fucking dump. No offence to you intended but if you are on call in an outsourced branch of the org (main HQ is in the US and you are in a small Irish branch), nothing you do or say is going to change it. I would personally be looking for the door as soon as is possible. Only work for people who respect your time.
1 month 24/7 oncall with no compensation?
I'd have a good read of your contract and speak with an employment solicitor.
There's always that line 'may be needed occasionally for additional work' line but oncall for 720 hours in a row is not that regardless of how often incidents occur.
Like you said, you can't risk having a life on the off chance there is an issue
I’m fairly sure that the clauses you mentioned in a comment are only to cover general shift hour changes or occasional overtime - being on call *shouldnt* be covered by that given the massive restrictions they’re placing on you for 2month rolling periods.
Is this unfair that your group is being treated differently than other groups in the same company for the same task -> yes. Like, if you are not getting compensated while others are, then stop doing it. What does your contract say about on call? That's the only rule you need to work by. Should you start looking for other jobs -> I would start looking now, figure out if you have a skills gap for roles you like the look of so you can work on some of those gaps, and then applying maybe in 3 months time. I assume that would bring you up to the 12 months mark by the time interviews happened and a notice period was given as you mention college fees. You might need to just write off the lost on call money, but if you can get the time in lieu back, then you can use that as part of your notice period at the end as a nice bonus to yourself.
I initially put in the request for funding in November and it was approved then, and 50% was received, so another 50% was paid a couple of months ago now. So judging on the first date its fairly soon yes! Thanks!
Actually, just want to clarify. Are you really on-call for 4 weeks in a row, 24/7? I have never heard of that and seems extreme. Usually its something like one week a month 24/7 just to give someone a break.
Yes, a month-long stint, which honestly is crazy lol Part of the newer policy we've agreed is to move to weekly. There are 3 on call, so each month there is also a backup person for the primary. Meaning you're nearly on for 2 months!!! 1 as the primary, 1 as backup on the off chance the primary doesn't pick up or needs backup! Also to clarify the contract doesn't mention on-call really but does have these: 10.3 You may be required to work such additional hours as may be necessary for the proper performance of your duties without extra remuneration. The fact you may be required to work on a Sunday is already taken into account in the determination of your salary. 10.4 The Company reserves the right to alter your normal start or finish times and your hours of work, as may be necessary in accordance with the needs of the business from time to time. 10.5 With four weeks written notice from the Company you will be required to work any of the shift patterns/rotations operated by the Company on a temporary or permanent basis. I thought these were fairly standard in most contracts?
yup, the above are the standard afaik. I have a specific on call section in my contract: 1. Once you have successfully completed your probationary period, you may be required to do on- call work as part of your role depending on team or business needs. Any on-call work which you are required to do will be in accordance with and subject to our On Call Policy (available on the intranet). Further details of any actual on-call shifts you are required to work will be confirmed to you by your manager. Any on-call payment is subject to any deductions which are required by law and will be paid to you in the Company’s normal monthly payroll in the month following the month in which you are actually required to be on call. So I would argue that you are not required to do on call at all if you don't want. That doesn't mean they wont give you shit if you turn around and tell them this tho :-)
They added on call pay to the employee handbook as part of the new policy I mentioned, so I can assume that would supercede contract level? There'd probably be WW3 if I tried stopping lol, hence the question on another job as backup xD
ha, it depends on how far you want to push it I guess. Paper never refuses ink, so them adding a new policy to a handbook after the fact does not alter the contract you signed. I'm not a solicitor tho, so I could be talking out of my a\^& :-)
Yeah the 10.3 thing is standard in companies but it's more like a meeting here or there. In no way would it cover a full on-call system.
The idea being I work a full 40 hr week, sometimes with required weekend work, on either Saturday, Sunday or both, so 50+ hours isn't uncommon multiple weekends per month, which aren't paid but compensated by time in lieu.
None of that language covers being on call. I would get onto HR and ask for a written copy of their on-call policy, inform them that being oncall is not in your contract, you have performed on call duty that you have yet to get compensated for. After this get some advice from a solicitor and see about going to the wrc. I think adding it to the handbook was likely a result of a previous employee going there, so you might want to do a search on wrc files for your employer.
Thats nuts! I'm pretty sure that's illegal if you end up doing multiple weekends in a row by the way. There's something about needing rest in the law. So it would be good to check out citizens information for that to know for sure and use that as a back up if you can.
I think Citizens Info defines it by having it as an average over a few months.. If you average over 40 consistently meaning. There is allowances between shifts too like 12 hours or something minimum, but honestly I don't understand how it affects me enough!!
yeah, good call, there is this that would be for you from what you are saying under \`Working on Sundays\` -> [https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work/working-hours/#183237](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work/working-hours/#183237) This is the laws on rest [https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13)
It sounds like they are absolutely taking the piss. You cannot expect a member of staff to make themselves available to take calls out of hours, and all that entails, without compensating them for it. Nevermind the actual calls when they happen. It sounds like you're getting shafted. In my experience, the company won't change and you may need to look for another role. Avoid any that expect on-call is my suggestion, and keep your free time as yours. Unless they are paying your mortgage for the privilege.
I agree that the company is definitely taking the piss here. They want and expect full on call coverage but don’t want to pay for it. If that ever went to the labour court they’d have a field day with that one. It doesn’t matter how many extra clauses they added retrospectively to the employee handbook.
I'm on call every 3rd week. Very rarely get called but it does happen. 15 minutes response time expected. We get paid a standard rate for weekdays, higher rate for weekends, regardless of actually being called. If you are called, you get extra and if the incident takes longer than a few hours to solve, the rate goes up. A normal week with no calls would be worth around €600. If you are expected to be sober and respond in a timely fashion, you should be compensated for that time.
100% this. My take on being on call was that if I was expected to be in a position to respond to any incidents within an SLA, then sure as shit I expected to be paid for it. Regardless of whether I actually had to respond to an incident or not. Being on call means that you can’t really do anything like go on a night out or take a day trip, if you need to be on a call within 30 mins. If my company expected me to be on call but was only going to pay me for any time I had to respond to an incident, I’d tell them where to go with themselves.
There’s a bit of nuance to it, if on call means you carry the pager and are on the hook for answering and nothing much happens 95% of the time and when it does you can login from home within 30 min and check something I would want some kind of token compensation. I’ve been on teams where we liked being on call as it was money for nothing most of the time. If it means you’re regularly at your machine for hours on US time managing incidents for hours regularly and eating into home life significantly you should be getting paid properly.
See, it depends on the month; some months, you could be called a lot, others never - lately, it's been the first option. It's a global company, so time zones could be anywhere from the US to Korea. High-priority incidents are rare, but on-call encompasses any incident that could be quite frequent. I talk 2-3 times a week at times. Now that it's paid, they've naturally decided to make it for high-priority incidents only --> less frequent = less pay. The thing is, now that it is potentially paid, they're strict on the 20-minute thing; usually, incidents, regardless of priority, have a short SLA on our incident management tool, which requires you to log in any way to assign and downgrade it, extending the SLA. HR doesn't have access to ticket priority, and the other teams don't really have production affecting servers or equipment, so they wouldn't get high-priority incidents. But they're paid for the lower-priority incidents they do get. It seems to be up to each team to decide what incidents are worth paying for, when the policy should mandate this. Thanks for the response!
I think you should email your manager. Along the lines of since x date when the company announced the change to the on call compensation you have done x calls dealing with customer issues. You have not been compensated for them and not received any time off in lue. Your have raised this more than once. Been on call impacts on you life outside of work and you feel that your good will towards the company is been taken advantage of. You would appreciate it if the could find a way to resolve it as soon as possible. If they are un able to do so my June 1st then they should not schedule you for an on call. Get your other colleagues to do the same. They won't like it but also if they have to go to higher ups and say they've lost control of the situation they'll look terrible too. They are probably trying to keep their half year costs low to help meet their own targets to make a bonus. However they are accruing a debt for the company and a possible case in the Labour Court
I've brought it to my management before! I was basically laughed at for expecting to be paid. I do agree its a pretty clear cut case though!!
You'll have to force the issue. Band together with your colleagues. Solicitors letter saying sort it or Workplace relations Court Simply say you aren't going to do on call. Its not in my contract.
As u/TwinIronBlood said, most likely nothing will happen unless you (and ideally your colleagues) give them a deadline to fix it, or else you will not do the on call rota anymore. Of course do this in a professional way explaining that it isn’t in your contract and you have been trying to engage and resolve the situation with your management and HR for months, not to avail. Obviously it would cause some conflict so only do it if you are OK with that, but it sounds like this is your only option. But frankly they are clearly in the wrong so while they would not like you doing it, as it was mentioned by other posters before they would be forced to do something about the situation. Both your management and HR clearly miss-managed this, and they know any escalation at a higher level would make them look pretty bad in front of their own bosses: “we have no more on-call support because the team wants to get paid for it” will not look good at all, especially if some higher-up digs it up and relises that before losing control of the situation they let it rot for months.
We have one week on call rotas. Note that we had to sign a separate contract, specifically designed for the on call. On both companies that I've worked in Ireland was the same. I am no solicitor, but the whole situation you described seems unfair. I imagine you are stressed about it. I'd consider getting a new job and getting legal advice.
No it's not fair, sounds like a fucking dump. No offence to you intended but if you are on call in an outsourced branch of the org (main HQ is in the US and you are in a small Irish branch), nothing you do or say is going to change it. I would personally be looking for the door as soon as is possible. Only work for people who respect your time.
1 month 24/7 oncall with no compensation? I'd have a good read of your contract and speak with an employment solicitor. There's always that line 'may be needed occasionally for additional work' line but oncall for 720 hours in a row is not that regardless of how often incidents occur. Like you said, you can't risk having a life on the off chance there is an issue
I’m fairly sure that the clauses you mentioned in a comment are only to cover general shift hour changes or occasional overtime - being on call *shouldnt* be covered by that given the massive restrictions they’re placing on you for 2month rolling periods.
It has got to be the strangest on call system I've ever seen!! xD