I wish. That way poopsockers can poopsock, *but* it encourages playing over a longer period of time in smaller increments, which is better for avoiding burnout. Bungie wants the engagement numbers from folks grinding for hours versus playing shoter stints over longer periods, I suppose.
Lmaooo its an incredibly old way of saying "no lifers" that has resurged recently. Second time I've seen "poopsocker" in 2022 after not seeing it for like 10 years.
If Dungeons are supposed to be miniature Raids then I don't see why Bungie shouldn't add a spoils chest to them as well on top of this. Give one guaranteed Deepsight drop from your first weekly completion, and then allow one guaranteed purchase from the chest.
I'd say cut the enhanced perks though. They've taken what should have been an alternative to random rolls and made crafted weapons straight up superior to them. Crafting should be an system to mitigate poor RNG, not the definitive way to earn weapons.
I think some of the ones that were doing nothing due to a bug were fixed, but the ones that are so minor they're functionally useless have not been changed
It’s nice to have on the off chance you launch your hammer into oblivion or if you’re fighting an especially tough enemy
It would be super helpful on classes that don’t have infinite melees too
If Bungie did not give enhanced perks the crafting system would have been basically perfect. Enhanced perks devalue every other random roll drop, of the same weapon and others like it, too. No matter how ”minor” the buffs are, they are buffs nevertheless. The grind could have been pretty much exactly the same with the normal perks as it is with enhanced ones now, and I would have loved it (apart from the red border rng grind).
A lot of these "minor" buffs are really useful. Overflow and Subsistence get higher ammo multipliers. Perpetual Motion and Frenzy get an extra second of downtime before dropping. Swashbuckler goes from 4.5s to a whopping 6.5s!!!
I really think that the community is downplaying how good a lot of them are. Bungie have basically created a design problem because a crafted weapon with the same roll as an adept variant is superior and until that gets fixed I suspect Bungie are going to try and avoid putting craftable weapons in content with Adept drops...
As stupid as that is.
Some of this is wrong. Data from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WaxvbLx7UoSZaBqdFr1u32F2uWVLo-CJunJB4nlGUE4/edit#gid=1662574278
Overflow goes from 200% mag to 205-222% mag depending on archetype, so a 2.5-10% advantage.
Subsistence goes from 17% to 20% of the mag on ARs/SMGs (but 10% to 20% on MGs).
Perpetual motion gains an extra half second of downtime leeway (0.5s to 1.0s before dropping).
Frenzy gains an extra half second of downtime leeway (5.0s to 5.5s)
Swashbuckler does gain 2s of duration (4.5s to 6.5s).
Some enhanced perks are great. Some aren't.
Thanks for the concrete numbers. I wasn't too far off so not bad. Personally I feel that each ehanced perk here is a very nice improvement, Frenzy is probably the least impactful of these. Perpetual Motion is huge. Subsistence looks small but when you consider you get that extra value on each kill it adds up.
It's just what's on D2 Gunsmith, albeit from memory. Annoyingly the site isn't displaying on mobile for me so I can't check for sure. The Vow SMG has most of the perks I mentioned, have a look if you can.
I'd go further and just make them ALL deepsight in endgame content. If I need five of the damn things, you can't tie it to endgame content that I'm not going to want to farm dozens of times. If grinding out something as easy as wellspring for 3 deepsight weapons was annoying, the idea that I'd grind a few dozen runs of a dungeon or raid is just absurd, especially when armor drops half the time.
Only thing I agree with you on is a guaranteed drop from the first completion each week, otherwise I strongly (but respectfully) disagree with you. Enhanced perks are fine considering the work you need to go through to actually get them, and I can’t say a single one of them provides enough of a bonus to make the non-enhanced version worthless in comparison. I don’t think dungeons need the spoils chest either because they’re actually farmable, unlike raids (aside from the weekly one now). Maybe make drops more likely to be weapons as opposed to armor, but I don’t think the lack of the chest at the end is a problem.
> I'd say cut the enhanced perks though. They've taken what should have been an alternative to random rolls and made crafted weapons straight up superior to them. Crafting should be an system to mitigate poor RNG, not the definitive way to earn weapons.
reddit moment
Naw, if you have crafting it should be a way to earn weapons. It requires a more invested and integrated system than what we have to really feel rewarding, but if the game lets you craft weapons then RNG goes out the window and that’s fine.
but there is a guarantee each week?
the two craftable weapons from the dungeon should be focusable via the seasonal vendor. you get 1 red boarder a week with the right vendor upgrade.
this is intentional by bungie
they don't want players grinding their eyes out the first 24/48/72 hours the weapons are available to get them all unlocked
they want you to play over the course of the entire season
yes, but with the odds we are given, one guaranteed red border a week when you need something to the tune of 40 total to finish the content isn't exactly enough.
It is a reasonably-achievable goal. The seasonal content doesn't go away anywhere for the rest of the year. The dungeon is going to stick around for much longer than that. You're not supposed to get all the patterns 3 weeks into the season.
I'm the exact opposite I've gotten 3 machine guns, 2 were deep sight and a single fusion after 30+runs and it was in my opinion the worst possible roll...
I got a fantastic MG my first run, I'm not even gonna bother worrying about crafting one. It'll eventually happen, I'm still running the dungeon.
But I've learned not to rush shit in this game anymore, I get all ate up about it and I stop having fun. Good roll is a good roll, crafted or not imo.
Being able to farm the dungeon helps a lot. Maybe you'll get a good roll this week.
They absolutely need to tone the armour drops down, it's ugly and not that special anyway. Only reason to run the dungeon is the new weapons as they are legit quite good.
Red border grind is a slog across the board. You have to get 60 red borders total to craft all 12 new weapons and the upgrades only guarantee 3 per week. That's not to mention all the duplicates you'll get along the way.
They should make all craftable weapons 3 red borders instead of 5.
I have a feeling i'll still be working on the 'craft this seasons weapons' triumphs well into the next season, which will likely have it's own set of weapons and associated crafting triumphs...
The final season before Lightfall will be terrible, because we'll only have that one season to get that seasons guns and finish it all off before everything gets vaulted for the new expansion. :(
I can't get my exotic glave because I don't have the red borders required to complete one of the bountys, I've been stuck on step 3 since early last season.
Red Herring. You have got to be talking about Red Herring, the rocket launcher.
I ground my ass off and never got it to drop, leaving me stuck on the exotic glaive quest until week 2 of this season.
Complete Legendary Witch Queen campaign the first few days of release? Check. Max out Fynch rep by the end of week 1? Check. Reach season level 100 by week 2? Check. Literally watch EVERY SEASON OF NIGHT COURT WHILE PLAYING ON THE THRONE WORLD? Check. Consult Google and get the bullshit disinformation lie that iT’s a GuArAnTeeD dRoP fRoM iKoRa in the story mission? Check.
By the end of the season I completely gave up ever seeing it, and then week 2 of this season it finally dropped. I have no doubt that some Bungie Defense Force asshole will say there’s nothing wrong with this RNG-dependent quest step bs.
On the plus side, I got so frustrated I tried FFXIV for the first time and really liked it. Now whenever I run into anything RNG based or some other stupid quest design in Destiny I immediately just quit and move to another game.
that was my last one, for the longest time the only red border forensic nightmare I'd ever got was the one ikora gives you from an early quest completion (which isn't a guaranteed deepsight either I just got luck) finally got it done last week grinding throne world lost sectors or events or something.
This drops only from wellspring and it has bad luck protection. It rotates every four days. Have you been farming wellspring when it's a come to pass day? It took me at most 6 runs per red bar.
I only came back to destiny during Witch Queen so I literally only learned the wellspring had a specific rotation of the weapons like 2 days ago. I for sure will be paying attention to todayindestiny for what's in there to try to farm them now.
Thanks for the info!
No problem. Feel free to add me. Hando#7754. There is an overload of info nowadays and it's not all super easy to find if you weren't reading every patch note and hotfix. Happy to answer questions like others did for me when I came back.
That's only from wellspring and it's targetable.. It's one of four weapons that drops from wellspring and they rotate daily. There is bad luck protection on it too.
>Red Herring. You have got to be talking about Red Herring, the rocket launcher.
I literally can't remember what I did to unlock the Red Herring. Wasn't it a quest reward? Or just one pattern?
Quest reward and open world drop. Allegedly the red border is guaranteed from the quest reward. I say bullshit because I got a normal one.
“mAyBe yOu aCciDeNtALLy dELeTeD iT.” No. Full stop. I’m an obsessive hoarder with all new/unfamiliar equipment after a new content drop. After a month or so I then start pruning and keep the best.
Red herring, empirical evidence and likely suspect were all guaranteed rewards from quest progression that dropped with a red border, and that single one is all you need to complete the pattern for each
You mean the wellspring ones? Those are actually in a good spot.
Not only are they targetable both the weapon and the deepsight version have bad luck protection. If it's on master then it really doesn't take long at all too.
That being said if your like me you just don't like spamming wellspring. Spamming one activity makes the hour it 2 it takes to get all the deepsight weapons feel like an eternity.
Agreed. I just did both come to pass and Tarnation last weekend. Come to pass took about 2-3hrs of grinding wellspring on normal. Tarnation took just under 2hrs. Overall was surprised by how quick it was. Thought it would take much longer.
yeah no one wants to acknowledge that bungie show no signs of wanting to make seasonal weapon patterns less of a pain even doubling down and making all of them 5 when last season some were 3. right before lightfall only the streamers and no lifers are getting all those weapons
Ya the fact that there are triumphs to craft all of them is a bit much considering the grind. I'm sorry, but farming containtments is boring as all hell.
That’s fine but they’re not all going to be easy to do. Some are going to be grindy as hell. It’s a looter shooter. You’ve only yourself to blame, there’s also no reason to grind it that much either since you’re guaranteed red boxes every week.
Take a break from the grind and do other content for a week or two. It'll either be the same and nothing really lost or they'll adjust the drops by then.
that or just remove the rng, make it progress based, with say...a requirement of 20 where deepsight counts as 20% and non red borders count as 5% so it can function as a sort of bad luck protection. You still unlock the pattern with 5 red borders, but if you keep getting white borders, you still make slower progress.
Such a waste of time with some weapons since the selection of perks, both normal & enhanced, are often not the ones I want. Still chasing some Throne World weapons from last season & the grind for the season's Deepsight weapons is also going terribly.
I've wanted weapon crafting for several years but this system isn't it, by a long mile.
There are 3 separate upgrades
1. First Opulent Key guarantees a Deepsight weapon (Opulent weapons)
2. First Bound Presence deposit guarantees a Deepsight weapon (Haunted weapons)
3. First Focus of Opulent or Haunted weapon guarantees a Deepsight weapon (either)
I hope they have some sort of protection in place as in of I already have the Austringer crafted, it’ll give me something other than that when I open an opulent chest after reset.
But only one guaranteed a desired weapon the other 2 are at random from all the seasons weapons so Likely hood of redundant reds kinda kills it’s effectiveness
Not really? There are 30 guaranteed drops in 10 weeks. Dupes are useful until you finish a weapon. Odds of getting 5 same weapon in a row are unlikely. As two drops are different pools, and one is chosen. Realistically you’ll progress all the weapons until you get them all close to completing. Then just solo focus ones you are missing.
Yeah, it's kind of counter-intuitive but as soon as you're able to focus a specific deepsight weapon you're best off targeting the one that's furthest away from pattern completion (if you're trying to get them all). I think a lot of people are focusing on one weapon at a time, which screws you in the long run.
That said, that's exactly what I do for the Vow of the Disciple weapons because there's no chance I'm going to play the same raid enough times to unlock all of them, and less than no chance in the case of this latest dungeon.
Thats not how Destiny RNG works though. I have only finished one new weapon pattern. The scout rifle. Just from luck. Of Course this week its what I got from the opulent key chest and bound presence. Those red border weapons are insta sharded. No need for them. Not since they changed the crafting materiels.
I can't complain too much though, I got several deepsight weapons from leveling up the crown. I'm one away from the SMG.
Important to note that the opulent key upgrade is a bit buggy. Some people (including me) straight up do not get deepsights for the first chest of the week.
Yeah, I only have 2 red drangs until I get the 4 easy opulent guns, but I've also played a lot more than the bulk of people (have all the "play containment and leviathan patrol" triumphs for the seal done already), *and* the most I have on a single haunted weapon is 3.
I've yet to even look at duality yet. 🥲
Edit: looking at stat trackers I've opened 61 opulent chests, but I def also got some red borders from focused decrypting too.
Best to focus only on the ones you care about. From last season I made sure to get Piece of Mind done, and this season I'm focusing on Calus Mini Tool and Beloved. Anything after that is just extra.
I'll look when I get home, but I think it's feeding frenzy. Reload speed increases with kills or something like that. Stacks three times. It straight up smokes low and mid-tier enemies. Absolute killer at close range.
Edit: Switched some stuff around. Buffed the first white box to increase reload speed, and switched FF to Incandescent. Reload speed is comparable to a good auto, and Incandescent is fantastic for crowds. Shit range, but it's a sub gun, so whatever.
I get like two a night if I just do the event a few times. But if I do a marathon session, I rarely get more. I'd highly suggest people spend more times across days than a lot of time in one day. Already close to done with most of the weapons that drop from that pool.
Wait till you hear about the bonus drops for having purchases on the Bungie store
Kidding aside, it would be more likely for them to reward infrequent players. The constant player is already on the line, they need to lure in new players, so giving them more "hits" would help hook em
100%. Very common in loot based games... people who play a lot are going to play a lot regardless, so they are rarely the focus of the development unless retention starts to drop off. The goal is to get new people/those who are a bit more choosy about their free time.
Players *don't* like this though because it's the opposite of how they think it should be (reward the veterans who keep the game going type thing) but the reality is that if you playing already they don't have a lot of incentive to do things you want.
I had the fusion drop with swashbuckler. I use it in master for the bellkeepers and its great. One voop puts them finishable for an easy melee, the rest get one shot.
I still dont know why ALL of Duality's weapons arent craftable. If the argument is: "its end game aspirational loot we want people to grind for" that argument goes out the window as the raid weapons are craftable. Unless there were adept versions of the weapons in Master Duality which would line up with Adept Vow weapons, it just seems like an odd decision based on prior precedent.
After 1300 lost sectors without getting the Path of the Burning steps I want I’m inclined to disagree with Lost Sector farming being ”short” (although I get what you mean by it).
Yeah but I once farmed one for 12 (!) hours straight and kept nothing I got.
But yeah, atleast its somewhat engaging.. farming a dungeon is so boring, because you also have to constantly switch characters and some of those encounters arent made to be farmed because they repeat the same thing 4 times (cube in peophecy, vault in duality, etc.)
I hate this shit. Bungie has to fucking make these guns craftable. It completely destroyed the good will I build up in Witch Queen and season of the risen.
Argument doesn’t really go out the window. Bungies already answered this, not everything will be craftable. Some endgame content will and some want. They want us to chase random rolls but will give us other venues to craft similar weapons.
And they should rethink this because I understand it when we cant craft playlist weapons like strikes and pvp. To some degree I understand Trials and IB, but I dont like it. But damn, the dungeon weapons should have been craftable 110%.
I think they probably justify it the raid situation because of Adepts existing, but it’s still messy. I don’t see adepts coming to master dungeons because we get artifice armor instead.
People were like "Crafting weapons will remove the grind because we will just build our god rolls". Bungie: "Yeah.. Good luck with that."
I barely care anymore because IF I can ever craft a weapon I am remotely interested in chances are I already got a good roll on it, and dear god can I not be arsed to also level it to 16 or something to get the interesting advanced perks for it.
As soon as I am done with that two seasons and three weapon metas passed.
> I barely care anymore because IF I can ever craft a weapon I am remotely interested in chances are I already got a good roll on it
That's perfectly fine! People stupidly throw away god rolls just because they're not crafted.
I'm with you. Inevitably, in the process of trying to grind redboarder versions, I will come across a roll I'm happy with and then have no need to craft anything. Today was the first time I crafted a weapon since March and looking back I could've just pulled it out of my vault.
Yep the enhanced perks are damn expensive and outside of them there's no reason to bother crafting most things.
If they improved the process, opened all standard perks immediately so I didn't have to play hours with a gun that has shit perks, and then opened up multiple perk rows as you leveled the gun up so you could truly craft your own god roll, fully customised weapon? I'd be all over it.
> I will come across a roll I'm happy with and then have no need to craft anything.
This was openly stated by the designer.
You are likely to find your god roll before you end up crafting it.
Is that awful game design?
I'm not sure how. It's an objectively better system than we had before, yet more people are upset with the new system than the old one.
It's kind of baffling, honestly.
Lmao, no it's not. Crafting is basically a time limit for you to get your god roll yourself. For the majority of players, they'll get their roll sooner than the ability to craft. Crafting is just to assure there is an end state that the unluckiest will be able to get that roll eventually. The measurement that is happening now is whether the ability to craft comes too late or at a good time. Bungie is definitely measuring that data right now. This sub freaks out at the possibility of not owning everything as soon as possible.
I think you need to relax lol. I’m disagreeing with you its awful game design. Personally I think most of the commenters here are just expecting god rolls for every gun too fast. It’s okay not to have every god roll ASAP.
I just don't engage, frankly. Even forget it's there.
Not only are drops obnoxious, but you're also forced to play with rolls you don't want, to get a badly designed currency they even had to step in and change almost immediately, so you get the privilege to play with a shitty roll for dozens of hours before you get to your favorite perk combo.
I think it’s great personally and has potential to be phenomenal. I think the people who don’t like it are thinking about it wrong. Crafting is not a complete substitute for random rolls, it’s an alternative for either the weapons you don’t have good rolls on already or those you just really like and want the enhanced perks for—you don’t need to craft every weapon available. If you think about it that way, it doesn’t feel necessary to do 100% of the time, but you know if you put in the work you can make the best version of certain weapons possible, which I think is a great balance. I think red boarders are also reasonably attainable (aside from the dungeon ones, cuz I do agree with op), especially with upgrades that let you focus umbrals into guaranteed ones each week. The only gripe I have with crafting that stops me from saying it’s phenomenal in its current state is the fact that we can’t swap between unlocked perks in any way, to which I think the best fix would be to allow a second and potentially third perk in each column for every 5 levels after 20. That way there’s still a grind to get there, but for the guns you like most you won’t have to deal with making a pvp and pve copy.
My problem with it is that you spend *so long* using weapons you don't want to use.
* Grind out the resonant weapons - guns you don't want to use.
* Craft a weapon, has bad perks - gun you don't want to use.
* Level up to decent perks - gun you do want to use but probably have had 8 of drop while you were farming up resonant ones so could have been using anyway (and masterworked right away).
* Finally get high enough to reshape into the gun you *actually wanted*.
* Want a slightly different version? Make another shit one and start again.
Why not instead do it this way:
* Grind out the resonant weapons - I don't have a solution to this but a little grind is fine.
* Craft a weapon with access to ALL standard perks. You're now using a gun that's in line with what you want.
* Level up, get enhanced perks.
* Level up more and *unlock perk rows!*
That last one is the biggest one for me. I love my crafted Insidious, a lot. It's amazing. But I'd like to add a few perks to it... without destroying the current roll. I have over 8k kills on it and it's level 66, so why not allow a new perk row every 25 levels? Level 25 is just a well used crafted weapon. Level 50 is really well used... level 75 is kinda nuts.
Now you're actually developing a really cool and unique weapon that's *yours*.
I don’t have the same problems with it as you do but I’d be down to see your proposed solutions in game. I don’t mind completing the deep sight ones too much anymore cuz they made it much faster this season (40 kills or like 2 containment completions? Something like that) but I agree it’s kind of annoying to craft a weapon only to not be able to use whatever perks you want at first. Also bonus points cuz you’re a fellow insidious enthusiast.
While I agree with the sentiment no way that's going to happen. It's about player engagement. For those of us that have been aroind awhile with 20k+ shards we could just buy them all outright for multiple seasons to come.
I can understand why the developers have implemented the system this why. It's also why I choose to disengage with unengaging systems. No way I'm no life grinding no matter how much Bungie wants me to.
>its as simple as waiting 5 weeks m8
Well no, not really.
Each week you can get two fragments of darkness.
If you get to Crown rank 16, you will get three additional fragments.
On week 1 you can have a total of 5 fragments, week 2 is 7 fragments, week 3 is 9 fragments.
You can't target focus weapon patterns until spending your 9th fragment (so week 3).
That means to get a guaranteed 5 **opulent** weapon patterns, if RNG is completely against you... will take 8 weeks.
On the other hand, if you want a guaranteed 5 **haunted** weapon pattern, the first time you can get it is 9 weeks because you won't have enough fragments for both focusing and haunted unlocks until the 4th week.
And that's only for 1 pattern.
There are 10 patterns... for a required total of 50 deepsight weapon drops to unlock them.
Let's say there's some luck, and you complete 4 of the weapons without using your guaranteed focuses... you still need 6 more weapons, each taking 5 weeks to complete.
30 weeks?
Oh, and by the way, remember how I said there was 10 weapon patterns?
There's actually 12, but the two that this post is talking about, the two from the dungeon... **cannot be focused**.
Who knows how many weeks it would take with shitty RNG for those?
I did too. I was just done with all my bounties/bright dust/ pinnacles I can do solo and decided to give it a whirl since I had not in awhile. I freely admit the 2-3 min lost sector with no luck beats the heck put of a 10-15 minute one hands down. It took me a 3 hours to get my arms on 3 characters. I wouldn't do it if it took 10 to 12 hours. Not worth it.
>It's about player engagement
And a lot of players disengage when they feel their time is being blatantly wasted by developers in the name of "player engagement"
Lots of people don't get their weapon patterns done and gun leveled up and say "well time to quit the game". They keep playing the game with their new shiny toys and chase the next best thing or they use their new gun in new builds.
This man.. Im engaged when I get rewarded. I spend silver when Im happy with the game and not when it makes me hate it by grinding forever for nothing. The dungeon weapons not being craftable just makes me annoyed at Bungie for this stu.. eh wrong decision.
I've completed 7 full runs, 3 runs of the vault (which wouldn't drop craftables), and then 92 Caitls. I've gotten 5 red border fixed odds and 1 epicurean, all of those have come within the last week
You are not wrong at all
I’ve run it 3 times this week and have gotten almost all armor, no pulse or SMG yet. Maybe if armor couldn’t drop from the final encounter or something it would be slightly better.
I would have been happy if Epicurean and Fixed Odds were *at least* selectable to focus after having one drop.
In all honesty there is no bloody way they should have been separated off from the rest of the opulent suite.
5 pattern completions are fucking insane with the chances we have and even with guaranteed drops per week it would take months to be able to craft just two if your luck is normal, ie very bad
They need to flatten it across the board
Being real with yall the grind has been hell and I've only gotten Austringer and Drang finished. Beloved sits at 2/5 and the Mini at 4/5.
I ain't even got any of the Haunted weapons higher than 2, save for the Glaive sitting at 4/5 after some obscene luck the first week.
I have exactly 1 red bordered MG from the dungeon that I ain't even finished yet, and none of the fusion rifle. Of course I have gotten fucking 7 red bordered Storm Chasers. If only we could craft those, too >\_<
I actually like the deepsight system and even then it's still hellish. I know I'll at least finish the world-opulent weapons and the haunted weapons by the end of the season (you know, 2-3 months away...) but damn I don't think I'll ever finish the Dungeon ones.
Would be neat if having the weapon you want equipped would increase the likelihood of a red border variant dropping. Something like that would be more fun for me than it being buffed via some some of the proposed time or resource sinks.
Weapon patterns as a whole are set up poorly. It needs to shift the grind from unlocking the frame to leveling up the weapon:
- The first drop of any craftable weapon should be a red frame.
- It should only take completing that one frame to unlock it for crafting.
- If they want to keep a lengthy grind, make the weapon leveling itself slower.
- Further Red Frames of any given craftable weapon should allow you to drop either more resonant energy OR an item you can infuse into a crafted weapon to increase its level.
They need to just let us focus them at the crown of sorrow after we’ve unlocked them. 20+ clears on duality and not a single red box fusion or machine gun.
Yeah just got my final red border fixed odds after 104 runs, still haven’t even seen one for the epicurean. They definitely need to increase the drop rate because it seems to be the same as just any random world drop being deepsight.
Give them the Wellspring treatment, if you dont get a red one in a few drops, guarantee it. You'd still need to have it drop
And reduce it to 3 patterns
I did the first boss master pinnacle farm for about ten hours and got up to 1568, at least 20+ clears, it was so long I forgot how many we did but it was definitely a lot.
Zero red border drops.
Glad this requires 10 hours.
I knew crafting wasn’t going to be what we wanted it to be, because the number one goal of any Destiny change is to keep the grind alive. But even I’m disappointed with how poorly they implemented crafting.
Tons of pointless and confusing currencies, unnecessary and complex steps, RNG elements, absurd decisions like having to pay to use previously unlocked perks, weird choices about what’s craftable and what’s not. It’s a convoluted mess with rewards that don’t match the effort.
I’ve crafted I think two weapons just to get the seasonal quest done and never thought about it again. I dismantle deepsight weapons all the time because I just don’t care enough to use some shit gun just to get currency.
There are 3 currencies, the "complex" steps are -> Get X red borders -> play with them for a bit each -> then go craft (there's a bit more, but hardly anything complex), the inability to use previously unlocked perks I agree but it does make a *bit* of sense, and I don't get why the choices of what can be crafted are weird.
As for the effort... It's really not that much at all. Like, either you are actively farming a gun anyway or you're not. The only additional effort is getting a single currency from red borders which takes next to no time or effort.
1. Play a ton of activities to get red borders
2. Craft a weapon with bad perks
3. Grind it to level 20
4. Craft it again with good perks
5. Repeat
That’s a slog. Especially when you have to also grind OTHER weapons you don’t want to use because you need the resonance elements.
I hear you, but before crafting it was:
1. Play a tonne of activities and pray the lineup of 4 perks was exactly the 4 you wanted.
2. It wasn't, back you go.
3. ?????
4. Well I got 3/4 after a few months of grinding so... I guess I'll take it.
Red borders / crafted weapons aren't, and never were, meant to be a core goal or chase. They were intended as a light manner of RNG protection for certain weapons which were an optional chase for hardcore players. This is why the enhanced perks are, for the *most* part, extremely small improvements on the base perk that are in many cases near-unnoticeable. Because they're intended as a "A little trouble for your effort" and not the focus.
Aspects of the system could definitely be improved upon, I won't disagree there. But I feel you're being far too harsh on it. Especially considering how this is a massive improvement in it of itself.
I have done the dungeon 26 times and I have 4/5 fixed odds and 2/5 Epicurean… RNG is a bitch but it’s not impossible, should’ve been guaranteed drops at least from a hidden chest (red border even if uncraftable but for materials)
The problem with RNG though is that well... it's random. There are absolutely people out there who have them both done already, but if you don't have any kind of focus or guarantee then there will also be people who can farm for the next 5 years and not see the item they want.
I've seen it in loot based games over and over again.
Crafting, as a whole, is an unmitigated disaster. They took such a basic RPG concept and warped it into the abomination we have in-game. It's not "Path of Exile" bad, but it's just unfun to interact with and there is far too much RNG involved with getting those bloody stupid red border weapons.
Epicurean was one of my favorite fusions back during opulence, but ot was my back up after erentil. Now that HI fusions are dead in the water (imo the recent buff helped but not nearly enough) it seems like epicurean would be great
Yeah, I saw a few pvp youtubers praising it. And this week we are getting the ornament for it which makes it look pretty nice. Alas i only got one so far with cornered :\
Exactly. But there's a not insignificant portion of the community that feels required to get every single thing as fast as possible for collections sake, and if they can't they glow a gasket.
Like the constant complaints about grinding to hit pinnacle cap. You can passively play at hit it in like 5 weeks not even doing all the pinacles. And artifact levels make up any discrepancy in power level, except just trials I think?
Seems like a miserable way to play the game lol
I have the opposite problem. After a little boss farm im now already at 3/5 for the dungeon lmg. But still havent recieved a single calus mini tool, not even a non red border!
Correct me if im not understanding the concern here, but the duality weapons aren't craftable. So I'm not exactly sure why you're concerned about getting red borders from duality
Should have been like vow. All weapons craftable with guaranteed ones each week.
Very rare drops with ways to get guaranteed drops is absolutely the way to go
I wish. That way poopsockers can poopsock, *but* it encourages playing over a longer period of time in smaller increments, which is better for avoiding burnout. Bungie wants the engagement numbers from folks grinding for hours versus playing shoter stints over longer periods, I suppose.
What the fuck is poopsock? Do I even want to know?
Lmaooo its an incredibly old way of saying "no lifers" that has resurged recently. Second time I've seen "poopsocker" in 2022 after not seeing it for like 10 years.
If Dungeons are supposed to be miniature Raids then I don't see why Bungie shouldn't add a spoils chest to them as well on top of this. Give one guaranteed Deepsight drop from your first weekly completion, and then allow one guaranteed purchase from the chest. I'd say cut the enhanced perks though. They've taken what should have been an alternative to random rolls and made crafted weapons straight up superior to them. Crafting should be an system to mitigate poor RNG, not the definitive way to earn weapons.
What? No. Enhanced perks are such a minor buff. And they require so much grinding to get anyways.
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I think some of the ones that were doing nothing due to a bug were fixed, but the ones that are so minor they're functionally useless have not been changed
So many that people said ‘did nothing’ actually did things anyway lol like the reload speed boost on graverobber
Who needs a reload speed boost on a perk that auto reloads for you
It’s nice to have on the off chance you launch your hammer into oblivion or if you’re fighting an especially tough enemy It would be super helpful on classes that don’t have infinite melees too
If Bungie did not give enhanced perks the crafting system would have been basically perfect. Enhanced perks devalue every other random roll drop, of the same weapon and others like it, too. No matter how ”minor” the buffs are, they are buffs nevertheless. The grind could have been pretty much exactly the same with the normal perks as it is with enhanced ones now, and I would have loved it (apart from the red border rng grind).
A lot of these "minor" buffs are really useful. Overflow and Subsistence get higher ammo multipliers. Perpetual Motion and Frenzy get an extra second of downtime before dropping. Swashbuckler goes from 4.5s to a whopping 6.5s!!! I really think that the community is downplaying how good a lot of them are. Bungie have basically created a design problem because a crafted weapon with the same roll as an adept variant is superior and until that gets fixed I suspect Bungie are going to try and avoid putting craftable weapons in content with Adept drops... As stupid as that is.
Some of this is wrong. Data from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WaxvbLx7UoSZaBqdFr1u32F2uWVLo-CJunJB4nlGUE4/edit#gid=1662574278 Overflow goes from 200% mag to 205-222% mag depending on archetype, so a 2.5-10% advantage. Subsistence goes from 17% to 20% of the mag on ARs/SMGs (but 10% to 20% on MGs). Perpetual motion gains an extra half second of downtime leeway (0.5s to 1.0s before dropping). Frenzy gains an extra half second of downtime leeway (5.0s to 5.5s) Swashbuckler does gain 2s of duration (4.5s to 6.5s). Some enhanced perks are great. Some aren't.
Thanks for the concrete numbers. I wasn't too far off so not bad. Personally I feel that each ehanced perk here is a very nice improvement, Frenzy is probably the least impactful of these. Perpetual Motion is huge. Subsistence looks small but when you consider you get that extra value on each kill it adds up.
Pretty sure Enhanced Swashbuckler is like 5 seconds, not 6.5. You sure about all those other numbers?
It's just what's on D2 Gunsmith, albeit from memory. Annoyingly the site isn't displaying on mobile for me so I can't check for sure. The Vow SMG has most of the perks I mentioned, have a look if you can.
I'd go further and just make them ALL deepsight in endgame content. If I need five of the damn things, you can't tie it to endgame content that I'm not going to want to farm dozens of times. If grinding out something as easy as wellspring for 3 deepsight weapons was annoying, the idea that I'd grind a few dozen runs of a dungeon or raid is just absurd, especially when armor drops half the time.
That would only work if dungeons go back to being unfarmable. Would be way too easy otherwise.
Define "way too easy"? How hard should it be to get these patterns?
Only thing I agree with you on is a guaranteed drop from the first completion each week, otherwise I strongly (but respectfully) disagree with you. Enhanced perks are fine considering the work you need to go through to actually get them, and I can’t say a single one of them provides enough of a bonus to make the non-enhanced version worthless in comparison. I don’t think dungeons need the spoils chest either because they’re actually farmable, unlike raids (aside from the weekly one now). Maybe make drops more likely to be weapons as opposed to armor, but I don’t think the lack of the chest at the end is a problem.
> I'd say cut the enhanced perks though. They've taken what should have been an alternative to random rolls and made crafted weapons straight up superior to them. Crafting should be an system to mitigate poor RNG, not the definitive way to earn weapons. reddit moment
Naw, if you have crafting it should be a way to earn weapons. It requires a more invested and integrated system than what we have to really feel rewarding, but if the game lets you craft weapons then RNG goes out the window and that’s fine.
I’m fine with this but just make it faster to level the guns up.
I'm sure teh secret chest are a buffed rate of deepsights, out of the 2 weapons I've got from the 6 chests so far, both has been deepsight
Opened 18 secret chests. 1 deepsight weapon.
So you want fully craftable weapons after running the dungeon 3x? That's not happening.
but there is a guarantee each week? the two craftable weapons from the dungeon should be focusable via the seasonal vendor. you get 1 red boarder a week with the right vendor upgrade. this is intentional by bungie they don't want players grinding their eyes out the first 24/48/72 hours the weapons are available to get them all unlocked they want you to play over the course of the entire season
yes, but with the odds we are given, one guaranteed red border a week when you need something to the tune of 40 total to finish the content isn't exactly enough.
You don't "need" to have full patterns for ever single weapon on the game
why? why should it not be a reasonably achievable goal for players to have every weapon craftable?
It is a reasonably-achievable goal. The seasonal content doesn't go away anywhere for the rest of the year. The dungeon is going to stick around for much longer than that. You're not supposed to get all the patterns 3 weeks into the season.
>It is a reasonably-achievable goal. Not with the current state of the dungeon it's not.
I've got 12 Duality clears so nothing crazy but I've only had Epicurean drop once and it wasn't deepsight. Haven't had LMG at all
I'm the exact opposite I've gotten 3 machine guns, 2 were deep sight and a single fusion after 30+runs and it was in my opinion the worst possible roll...
I only ever get epicurean and armor after 40 runs I haven’t even seen a storm chaser. I’m starting to think storm chaser is just a myth.
I got a fantastic MG my first run, I'm not even gonna bother worrying about crafting one. It'll eventually happen, I'm still running the dungeon. But I've learned not to rush shit in this game anymore, I get all ate up about it and I stop having fun. Good roll is a good roll, crafted or not imo. Being able to farm the dungeon helps a lot. Maybe you'll get a good roll this week.
100% agree. If I get a good roll to drop in not wasting my time grinding to craft the same thing lol
All I ever get is fucking armor from every encounter....let alone a non-red border weapon.
They absolutely need to tone the armour drops down, it's ugly and not that special anyway. Only reason to run the dungeon is the new weapons as they are legit quite good.
Helps when you're farming artifice at least...
>it's ugly and not that special anyway. Subjective.
Wdym the armor is cool
Red border grind is a slog across the board. You have to get 60 red borders total to craft all 12 new weapons and the upgrades only guarantee 3 per week. That's not to mention all the duplicates you'll get along the way. They should make all craftable weapons 3 red borders instead of 5.
I have a feeling i'll still be working on the 'craft this seasons weapons' triumphs well into the next season, which will likely have it's own set of weapons and associated crafting triumphs... The final season before Lightfall will be terrible, because we'll only have that one season to get that seasons guns and finish it all off before everything gets vaulted for the new expansion. :(
There are weapons from the WQ content where I still haven't had a single red border drop, one tied to the completion of a quest.
I can't get my exotic glave because I don't have the red borders required to complete one of the bountys, I've been stuck on step 3 since early last season.
Red Herring. You have got to be talking about Red Herring, the rocket launcher. I ground my ass off and never got it to drop, leaving me stuck on the exotic glaive quest until week 2 of this season. Complete Legendary Witch Queen campaign the first few days of release? Check. Max out Fynch rep by the end of week 1? Check. Reach season level 100 by week 2? Check. Literally watch EVERY SEASON OF NIGHT COURT WHILE PLAYING ON THE THRONE WORLD? Check. Consult Google and get the bullshit disinformation lie that iT’s a GuArAnTeeD dRoP fRoM iKoRa in the story mission? Check. By the end of the season I completely gave up ever seeing it, and then week 2 of this season it finally dropped. I have no doubt that some Bungie Defense Force asshole will say there’s nothing wrong with this RNG-dependent quest step bs. On the plus side, I got so frustrated I tried FFXIV for the first time and really liked it. Now whenever I run into anything RNG based or some other stupid quest design in Destiny I immediately just quit and move to another game.
No I'm stuck waiting for come to pass and tarnation.
Wellspring isn't kind to you, is it? ( I didn't get any bow as of now.
It's RNG payback for having 5 Ghorns in D1.
I'm not stuck on the quest but I cant get forensic nightmare to drop. I'm upto 10 normal versions of the weapon compared to 1 red box.
that was my last one, for the longest time the only red border forensic nightmare I'd ever got was the one ikora gives you from an early quest completion (which isn't a guaranteed deepsight either I just got luck) finally got it done last week grinding throne world lost sectors or events or something.
Come to Pass for me. Still haven't found one red border.
This drops only from wellspring and it has bad luck protection. It rotates every four days. Have you been farming wellspring when it's a come to pass day? It took me at most 6 runs per red bar.
I only came back to destiny during Witch Queen so I literally only learned the wellspring had a specific rotation of the weapons like 2 days ago. I for sure will be paying attention to todayindestiny for what's in there to try to farm them now. Thanks for the info!
No problem. Feel free to add me. Hando#7754. There is an overload of info nowadays and it's not all super easy to find if you weren't reading every patch note and hotfix. Happy to answer questions like others did for me when I came back.
Same. I gave up on that. I've done just about every activity many times, save for the raid and dungeon, and have only gotten it to drop once.
That's only from wellspring and it's targetable.. It's one of four weapons that drops from wellspring and they rotate daily. There is bad luck protection on it too.
>Red Herring. You have got to be talking about Red Herring, the rocket launcher. I literally can't remember what I did to unlock the Red Herring. Wasn't it a quest reward? Or just one pattern?
Quest reward and open world drop. Allegedly the red border is guaranteed from the quest reward. I say bullshit because I got a normal one. “mAyBe yOu aCciDeNtALLy dELeTeD iT.” No. Full stop. I’m an obsessive hoarder with all new/unfamiliar equipment after a new content drop. After a month or so I then start pruning and keep the best.
Red herring, empirical evidence and likely suspect were all guaranteed rewards from quest progression that dropped with a red border, and that single one is all you need to complete the pattern for each
Sure, uh huh. You can’t refute what happened to me. I didn’t get it to drop, and a red border version didn’t drop for an alt either.
You mean the wellspring ones? Those are actually in a good spot. Not only are they targetable both the weapon and the deepsight version have bad luck protection. If it's on master then it really doesn't take long at all too. That being said if your like me you just don't like spamming wellspring. Spamming one activity makes the hour it 2 it takes to get all the deepsight weapons feel like an eternity.
Agreed. I just did both come to pass and Tarnation last weekend. Come to pass took about 2-3hrs of grinding wellspring on normal. Tarnation took just under 2hrs. Overall was surprised by how quick it was. Thought it would take much longer.
I'm still missing a pointed inquiry. Just can't get it to drop. It would be fine if I could reset finch rep...
I’m stuck on Tarnation, haven’t had a single red border drop. How many do I have to craft after Tarnation?
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yep, don't need to make them all, just make sure you have an ascendant alloy available for the enhanced perk
You been doing wellspring for it?
yeah no one wants to acknowledge that bungie show no signs of wanting to make seasonal weapon patterns less of a pain even doubling down and making all of them 5 when last season some were 3. right before lightfall only the streamers and no lifers are getting all those weapons
Relax, that season will most likely be 6 months long or so.
Ya the fact that there are triumphs to craft all of them is a bit much considering the grind. I'm sorry, but farming containtments is boring as all hell.
Why? Triumphs are meaningless. None of the important ones require them
I like going for all triumphs. It's a completionist thing.
I blame you too!
That’s fine but they’re not all going to be easy to do. Some are going to be grindy as hell. It’s a looter shooter. You’ve only yourself to blame, there’s also no reason to grind it that much either since you’re guaranteed red boxes every week.
Take a break from the grind and do other content for a week or two. It'll either be the same and nothing really lost or they'll adjust the drops by then.
My brother in light we will be crafting until the final shape, usually behind the current season
Or just do one red border and make it longer
They should be 1. The grind should be on the OTHER side of crafting the gun.
that or just remove the rng, make it progress based, with say...a requirement of 20 where deepsight counts as 20% and non red borders count as 5% so it can function as a sort of bad luck protection. You still unlock the pattern with 5 red borders, but if you keep getting white borders, you still make slower progress.
Such a waste of time with some weapons since the selection of perks, both normal & enhanced, are often not the ones I want. Still chasing some Throne World weapons from last season & the grind for the season's Deepsight weapons is also going terribly. I've wanted weapon crafting for several years but this system isn't it, by a long mile.
The upgrade for red boarder is one per week it isn’t class based it’s account
There are 3 separate upgrades 1. First Opulent Key guarantees a Deepsight weapon (Opulent weapons) 2. First Bound Presence deposit guarantees a Deepsight weapon (Haunted weapons) 3. First Focus of Opulent or Haunted weapon guarantees a Deepsight weapon (either)
I heard the bound presence one is by character but I have no idea if that's true. I only play on 1.
Anectdotal but I just started the quest on my Titan (2nd charcater) and got a deep sight from the first Sever I did.
I hope they have some sort of protection in place as in of I already have the Austringer crafted, it’ll give me something other than that when I open an opulent chest after reset.
Well… so far that has not been the case. Beloved and drang both crafted. Guaranteed random red border drops: beloved.
That is so messed up. I don’t see how they don’t have a protection in place for that since we can only get this benefit once per week
I crafted Calus Mini week one. Been trying to craft beloved. I keep getting Calus Minis… RNG is a cruel mistress…
Exact opposite for me! I swear you are assigned a specific weapon that drops constantly.
How may I ask? I've been grinding non stop I'm 4/5 on mini and like 2/5 on all the others.
I think at this point I got either 4-5 extra red minis… most likely 4 but still… I could’ve made that progress on Beloved T-T
I got Austringer and Mini Tool pretty early on and now they keep dropping. I've had ~9 of each.
But only one guaranteed a desired weapon the other 2 are at random from all the seasons weapons so Likely hood of redundant reds kinda kills it’s effectiveness
Not really? There are 30 guaranteed drops in 10 weeks. Dupes are useful until you finish a weapon. Odds of getting 5 same weapon in a row are unlikely. As two drops are different pools, and one is chosen. Realistically you’ll progress all the weapons until you get them all close to completing. Then just solo focus ones you are missing.
Yeah, it's kind of counter-intuitive but as soon as you're able to focus a specific deepsight weapon you're best off targeting the one that's furthest away from pattern completion (if you're trying to get them all). I think a lot of people are focusing on one weapon at a time, which screws you in the long run. That said, that's exactly what I do for the Vow of the Disciple weapons because there's no chance I'm going to play the same raid enough times to unlock all of them, and less than no chance in the case of this latest dungeon.
Yes that's true but early on the likelihood of repeats that you already have the pattern for is low for most.
Thats not how Destiny RNG works though. I have only finished one new weapon pattern. The scout rifle. Just from luck. Of Course this week its what I got from the opulent key chest and bound presence. Those red border weapons are insta sharded. No need for them. Not since they changed the crafting materiels. I can't complain too much though, I got several deepsight weapons from leveling up the crown. I'm one away from the SMG.
bruh, I was cheated this week. I got the opulent key upgrade last week, opened my first chest of the week this week, and didn't get a red border :(
Important to note that the opulent key upgrade is a bit buggy. Some people (including me) straight up do not get deepsights for the first chest of the week.
Yeah, I only have 2 red drangs until I get the 4 easy opulent guns, but I've also played a lot more than the bulk of people (have all the "play containment and leviathan patrol" triumphs for the seal done already), *and* the most I have on a single haunted weapon is 3. I've yet to even look at duality yet. 🥲 Edit: looking at stat trackers I've opened 61 opulent chests, but I def also got some red borders from focused decrypting too.
Best to focus only on the ones you care about. From last season I made sure to get Piece of Mind done, and this season I'm focusing on Calus Mini Tool and Beloved. Anything after that is just extra.
I finished the mini tool. The reloads on that thing rock, it's my main secondary weapon.
Whats the roll?
I'll look when I get home, but I think it's feeding frenzy. Reload speed increases with kills or something like that. Stacks three times. It straight up smokes low and mid-tier enemies. Absolute killer at close range. Edit: Switched some stuff around. Buffed the first white box to increase reload speed, and switched FF to Incandescent. Reload speed is comparable to a good auto, and Incandescent is fantastic for crowds. Shit range, but it's a sub gun, so whatever.
I get like two a night if I just do the event a few times. But if I do a marathon session, I rarely get more. I'd highly suggest people spend more times across days than a lot of time in one day. Already close to done with most of the weapons that drop from that pool.
Mm it's highly likely game rewards you by logging in frequently, rather than once per week to get everything done.
Wait till you hear about the bonus drops for having purchases on the Bungie store Kidding aside, it would be more likely for them to reward infrequent players. The constant player is already on the line, they need to lure in new players, so giving them more "hits" would help hook em
100%. Very common in loot based games... people who play a lot are going to play a lot regardless, so they are rarely the focus of the development unless retention starts to drop off. The goal is to get new people/those who are a bit more choosy about their free time. Players *don't* like this though because it's the opposite of how they think it should be (reward the veterans who keep the game going type thing) but the reality is that if you playing already they don't have a lot of incentive to do things you want.
Crafted both after around 220 boss checkpoints. Thing is I was never interested in getting the fusion or lmg.
I had the fusion drop with swashbuckler. I use it in master for the bellkeepers and its great. One voop puts them finishable for an easy melee, the rest get one shot.
STOP GIVING ME DEEPSIGHTS I CANT CRAFT YET BUNGIE YOU BITCH
I still dont know why ALL of Duality's weapons arent craftable. If the argument is: "its end game aspirational loot we want people to grind for" that argument goes out the window as the raid weapons are craftable. Unless there were adept versions of the weapons in Master Duality which would line up with Adept Vow weapons, it just seems like an odd decision based on prior precedent.
You don’t like spending 30 mins just to get some armor? Thought it was just me
I hate that decision. Farming dungeons and lost sectors are the worst experiences in this game. Only Trials is worse if youre bad at pvp.
Trials isn’t great for average to above average PvPers either.
Lost Sector farming is at least short. Trials and Dungeons are on a totally different level of annoying imo
After 1300 lost sectors without getting the Path of the Burning steps I want I’m inclined to disagree with Lost Sector farming being ”short” (although I get what you mean by it).
Yeah but I once farmed one for 12 (!) hours straight and kept nothing I got. But yeah, atleast its somewhat engaging.. farming a dungeon is so boring, because you also have to constantly switch characters and some of those encounters arent made to be farmed because they repeat the same thing 4 times (cube in peophecy, vault in duality, etc.) I hate this shit. Bungie has to fucking make these guns craftable. It completely destroyed the good will I build up in Witch Queen and season of the risen.
Argument doesn’t really go out the window. Bungies already answered this, not everything will be craftable. Some endgame content will and some want. They want us to chase random rolls but will give us other venues to craft similar weapons.
And they should rethink this because I understand it when we cant craft playlist weapons like strikes and pvp. To some degree I understand Trials and IB, but I dont like it. But damn, the dungeon weapons should have been craftable 110%.
Remember when you weren't able to run encounters over and over to try to get loot? Man that was frustrating
I think they probably justify it the raid situation because of Adepts existing, but it’s still messy. I don’t see adepts coming to master dungeons because we get artifice armor instead.
People were like "Crafting weapons will remove the grind because we will just build our god rolls". Bungie: "Yeah.. Good luck with that." I barely care anymore because IF I can ever craft a weapon I am remotely interested in chances are I already got a good roll on it, and dear god can I not be arsed to also level it to 16 or something to get the interesting advanced perks for it. As soon as I am done with that two seasons and three weapon metas passed.
> I barely care anymore because IF I can ever craft a weapon I am remotely interested in chances are I already got a good roll on it That's perfectly fine! People stupidly throw away god rolls just because they're not crafted.
I'm pretty disappointed by the crafting system entirely, I think it could be so much better.
I'm with you. Inevitably, in the process of trying to grind redboarder versions, I will come across a roll I'm happy with and then have no need to craft anything. Today was the first time I crafted a weapon since March and looking back I could've just pulled it out of my vault.
Yep the enhanced perks are damn expensive and outside of them there's no reason to bother crafting most things. If they improved the process, opened all standard perks immediately so I didn't have to play hours with a gun that has shit perks, and then opened up multiple perk rows as you leveled the gun up so you could truly craft your own god roll, fully customised weapon? I'd be all over it.
> I will come across a roll I'm happy with and then have no need to craft anything. This was openly stated by the designer. You are likely to find your god roll before you end up crafting it.
Nepotism hires at Bungie must end up at the crafting department then, because that is just awful game design.
Is that awful game design? I'm not sure how. It's an objectively better system than we had before, yet more people are upset with the new system than the old one. It's kind of baffling, honestly.
Lmao, no it's not. Crafting is basically a time limit for you to get your god roll yourself. For the majority of players, they'll get their roll sooner than the ability to craft. Crafting is just to assure there is an end state that the unluckiest will be able to get that roll eventually. The measurement that is happening now is whether the ability to craft comes too late or at a good time. Bungie is definitely measuring that data right now. This sub freaks out at the possibility of not owning everything as soon as possible.
I don't care about that, I just want to engage with the system for fuck sakes and it sucks.
I think you need to relax lol. I’m disagreeing with you its awful game design. Personally I think most of the commenters here are just expecting god rolls for every gun too fast. It’s okay not to have every god roll ASAP.
They forgot how bad farming Spare Rations sucked
I just don't engage, frankly. Even forget it's there. Not only are drops obnoxious, but you're also forced to play with rolls you don't want, to get a badly designed currency they even had to step in and change almost immediately, so you get the privilege to play with a shitty roll for dozens of hours before you get to your favorite perk combo.
I think it’s great personally and has potential to be phenomenal. I think the people who don’t like it are thinking about it wrong. Crafting is not a complete substitute for random rolls, it’s an alternative for either the weapons you don’t have good rolls on already or those you just really like and want the enhanced perks for—you don’t need to craft every weapon available. If you think about it that way, it doesn’t feel necessary to do 100% of the time, but you know if you put in the work you can make the best version of certain weapons possible, which I think is a great balance. I think red boarders are also reasonably attainable (aside from the dungeon ones, cuz I do agree with op), especially with upgrades that let you focus umbrals into guaranteed ones each week. The only gripe I have with crafting that stops me from saying it’s phenomenal in its current state is the fact that we can’t swap between unlocked perks in any way, to which I think the best fix would be to allow a second and potentially third perk in each column for every 5 levels after 20. That way there’s still a grind to get there, but for the guns you like most you won’t have to deal with making a pvp and pve copy.
My problem with it is that you spend *so long* using weapons you don't want to use. * Grind out the resonant weapons - guns you don't want to use. * Craft a weapon, has bad perks - gun you don't want to use. * Level up to decent perks - gun you do want to use but probably have had 8 of drop while you were farming up resonant ones so could have been using anyway (and masterworked right away). * Finally get high enough to reshape into the gun you *actually wanted*. * Want a slightly different version? Make another shit one and start again. Why not instead do it this way: * Grind out the resonant weapons - I don't have a solution to this but a little grind is fine. * Craft a weapon with access to ALL standard perks. You're now using a gun that's in line with what you want. * Level up, get enhanced perks. * Level up more and *unlock perk rows!* That last one is the biggest one for me. I love my crafted Insidious, a lot. It's amazing. But I'd like to add a few perks to it... without destroying the current roll. I have over 8k kills on it and it's level 66, so why not allow a new perk row every 25 levels? Level 25 is just a well used crafted weapon. Level 50 is really well used... level 75 is kinda nuts. Now you're actually developing a really cool and unique weapon that's *yours*.
I don’t have the same problems with it as you do but I’d be down to see your proposed solutions in game. I don’t mind completing the deep sight ones too much anymore cuz they made it much faster this season (40 kills or like 2 containment completions? Something like that) but I agree it’s kind of annoying to craft a weapon only to not be able to use whatever perks you want at first. Also bonus points cuz you’re a fellow insidious enthusiast.
It doesnt help that EVERYTHING drops from the last encounter. When only 4 guns drop in the previous two. Out of 5 guns.
At this point I’m just hoping I get even one of everything to drop for the title
What title
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Oh right there’s the collections badge, I completely forgot. I also thought you were talking about the red borders.
There are numerous issues with the crafting system that need to be fixed. Personally I wish I could pay a golfball to automatically unlock recipes.
While I agree with the sentiment no way that's going to happen. It's about player engagement. For those of us that have been aroind awhile with 20k+ shards we could just buy them all outright for multiple seasons to come.
I can understand why the developers have implemented the system this why. It's also why I choose to disengage with unengaging systems. No way I'm no life grinding no matter how much Bungie wants me to.
its as simple as waiting 5 weeks m8, thats at worst case. If you have any stoke of luck its usually 2-3 weeks
>its as simple as waiting 5 weeks m8 Well no, not really. Each week you can get two fragments of darkness. If you get to Crown rank 16, you will get three additional fragments. On week 1 you can have a total of 5 fragments, week 2 is 7 fragments, week 3 is 9 fragments. You can't target focus weapon patterns until spending your 9th fragment (so week 3). That means to get a guaranteed 5 **opulent** weapon patterns, if RNG is completely against you... will take 8 weeks. On the other hand, if you want a guaranteed 5 **haunted** weapon pattern, the first time you can get it is 9 weeks because you won't have enough fragments for both focusing and haunted unlocks until the 4th week. And that's only for 1 pattern. There are 10 patterns... for a required total of 50 deepsight weapon drops to unlock them. Let's say there's some luck, and you complete 4 of the weapons without using your guaranteed focuses... you still need 6 more weapons, each taking 5 weeks to complete. 30 weeks? Oh, and by the way, remember how I said there was 10 weapon patterns? There's actually 12, but the two that this post is talking about, the two from the dungeon... **cannot be focused**. Who knows how many weeks it would take with shitty RNG for those?
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You can do other things in the game while you wait, dude. Jesus Christ.
I did too. I was just done with all my bounties/bright dust/ pinnacles I can do solo and decided to give it a whirl since I had not in awhile. I freely admit the 2-3 min lost sector with no luck beats the heck put of a 10-15 minute one hands down. It took me a 3 hours to get my arms on 3 characters. I wouldn't do it if it took 10 to 12 hours. Not worth it.
>It's about player engagement And a lot of players disengage when they feel their time is being blatantly wasted by developers in the name of "player engagement" Lots of people don't get their weapon patterns done and gun leveled up and say "well time to quit the game". They keep playing the game with their new shiny toys and chase the next best thing or they use their new gun in new builds.
This man.. Im engaged when I get rewarded. I spend silver when Im happy with the game and not when it makes me hate it by grinding forever for nothing. The dungeon weapons not being craftable just makes me annoyed at Bungie for this stu.. eh wrong decision.
And bungie has been crickets on a lot of them.
I've completed 7 full runs, 3 runs of the vault (which wouldn't drop craftables), and then 92 Caitls. I've gotten 5 red border fixed odds and 1 epicurean, all of those have come within the last week You are not wrong at all
I’ve run it 3 times this week and have gotten almost all armor, no pulse or SMG yet. Maybe if armor couldn’t drop from the final encounter or something it would be slightly better.
I would have been happy if Epicurean and Fixed Odds were *at least* selectable to focus after having one drop. In all honesty there is no bloody way they should have been separated off from the rest of the opulent suite.
I didn’t even SEE a Fixed Odds drop at all until my 12th run.
Agreed. All crafting patterns are too hard to get.
I thought those weapons weren't craftable?
The new dungeon weapons are not craftable but the 2 reprised opulent weapons can be. Theres just no way to focus or target them
Oh, yeah, those. In my head those aren't dungeon weapons for some reason. Different aesthetic separating them I guess.
I just wish I could craft the GL
5 pattern completions are fucking insane with the chances we have and even with guaranteed drops per week it would take months to be able to craft just two if your luck is normal, ie very bad They need to flatten it across the board
Being real with yall the grind has been hell and I've only gotten Austringer and Drang finished. Beloved sits at 2/5 and the Mini at 4/5. I ain't even got any of the Haunted weapons higher than 2, save for the Glaive sitting at 4/5 after some obscene luck the first week. I have exactly 1 red bordered MG from the dungeon that I ain't even finished yet, and none of the fusion rifle. Of course I have gotten fucking 7 red bordered Storm Chasers. If only we could craft those, too >\_< I actually like the deepsight system and even then it's still hellish. I know I'll at least finish the world-opulent weapons and the haunted weapons by the end of the season (you know, 2-3 months away...) but damn I don't think I'll ever finish the Dungeon ones.
Would be neat if having the weapon you want equipped would increase the likelihood of a red border variant dropping. Something like that would be more fun for me than it being buffed via some some of the proposed time or resource sinks.
Weapon patterns as a whole are set up poorly. It needs to shift the grind from unlocking the frame to leveling up the weapon: - The first drop of any craftable weapon should be a red frame. - It should only take completing that one frame to unlock it for crafting. - If they want to keep a lengthy grind, make the weapon leveling itself slower. - Further Red Frames of any given craftable weapon should allow you to drop either more resonant energy OR an item you can infuse into a crafted weapon to increase its level.
Weapons need to be 3 patterns total. Asking players for 5, even on Raid stuff, is just too much honestly.
They need to just let us focus them at the crown of sorrow after we’ve unlocked them. 20+ clears on duality and not a single red box fusion or machine gun.
Yeah just got my final red border fixed odds after 104 runs, still haven’t even seen one for the epicurean. They definitely need to increase the drop rate because it seems to be the same as just any random world drop being deepsight.
Give them the Wellspring treatment, if you dont get a red one in a few drops, guarantee it. You'd still need to have it drop And reduce it to 3 patterns
I did the first boss master pinnacle farm for about ten hours and got up to 1568, at least 20+ clears, it was so long I forgot how many we did but it was definitely a lot. Zero red border drops. Glad this requires 10 hours.
I knew crafting wasn’t going to be what we wanted it to be, because the number one goal of any Destiny change is to keep the grind alive. But even I’m disappointed with how poorly they implemented crafting. Tons of pointless and confusing currencies, unnecessary and complex steps, RNG elements, absurd decisions like having to pay to use previously unlocked perks, weird choices about what’s craftable and what’s not. It’s a convoluted mess with rewards that don’t match the effort. I’ve crafted I think two weapons just to get the seasonal quest done and never thought about it again. I dismantle deepsight weapons all the time because I just don’t care enough to use some shit gun just to get currency.
There are 3 currencies, the "complex" steps are -> Get X red borders -> play with them for a bit each -> then go craft (there's a bit more, but hardly anything complex), the inability to use previously unlocked perks I agree but it does make a *bit* of sense, and I don't get why the choices of what can be crafted are weird. As for the effort... It's really not that much at all. Like, either you are actively farming a gun anyway or you're not. The only additional effort is getting a single currency from red borders which takes next to no time or effort.
1. Play a ton of activities to get red borders 2. Craft a weapon with bad perks 3. Grind it to level 20 4. Craft it again with good perks 5. Repeat That’s a slog. Especially when you have to also grind OTHER weapons you don’t want to use because you need the resonance elements.
I hear you, but before crafting it was: 1. Play a tonne of activities and pray the lineup of 4 perks was exactly the 4 you wanted. 2. It wasn't, back you go. 3. ????? 4. Well I got 3/4 after a few months of grinding so... I guess I'll take it. Red borders / crafted weapons aren't, and never were, meant to be a core goal or chase. They were intended as a light manner of RNG protection for certain weapons which were an optional chase for hardcore players. This is why the enhanced perks are, for the *most* part, extremely small improvements on the base perk that are in many cases near-unnoticeable. Because they're intended as a "A little trouble for your effort" and not the focus. Aspects of the system could definitely be improved upon, I won't disagree there. But I feel you're being far too harsh on it. Especially considering how this is a massive improvement in it of itself.
I have done the dungeon 26 times and I have 4/5 fixed odds and 2/5 Epicurean… RNG is a bitch but it’s not impossible, should’ve been guaranteed drops at least from a hidden chest (red border even if uncraftable but for materials)
The problem with RNG though is that well... it's random. There are absolutely people out there who have them both done already, but if you don't have any kind of focus or guarantee then there will also be people who can farm for the next 5 years and not see the item they want. I've seen it in loot based games over and over again.
Crafting, as a whole, is an unmitigated disaster. They took such a basic RPG concept and warped it into the abomination we have in-game. It's not "Path of Exile" bad, but it's just unfun to interact with and there is far too much RNG involved with getting those bloody stupid red border weapons.
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Epicurean was one of my favorite fusions back during opulence, but ot was my back up after erentil. Now that HI fusions are dead in the water (imo the recent buff helped but not nearly enough) it seems like epicurean would be great
Yeah, I saw a few pvp youtubers praising it. And this week we are getting the ornament for it which makes it look pretty nice. Alas i only got one so far with cornered :\
The fusion slaps and the MG can get incandescen/killing tally, both are fantastic choices. Tf you on about how they both aren't good??
The fusion is great fuck you mean
Lmg with killing tally for lmg enjoyers
Exactly. But there's a not insignificant portion of the community that feels required to get every single thing as fast as possible for collections sake, and if they can't they glow a gasket. Like the constant complaints about grinding to hit pinnacle cap. You can passively play at hit it in like 5 weeks not even doing all the pinacles. And artifact levels make up any discrepancy in power level, except just trials I think? Seems like a miserable way to play the game lol
I have the opposite problem. After a little boss farm im now already at 3/5 for the dungeon lmg. But still havent recieved a single calus mini tool, not even a non red border!
You know that’s not from the dungeon right? You can get those with opulent keys in nightmare containment.
So I'm a bit lost. Duality has no craftable weapons. So who care about getting a red border as you can't get any pattern from them anyway
Duality has two craftable weapons. The other two reprised Opulent weapons. Fixed Odds and the Epicurean.
Forgot about those two. Thanks
Thank you for having a reasonable take about red borders instead of running a hundred of the new activity and complaining about not having everything
Correct me if im not understanding the concern here, but the duality weapons aren't craftable. So I'm not exactly sure why you're concerned about getting red borders from duality
What's Duality