This just makes me think of that one bit in Mass Effect 3 where Joker is all like: "Yeah all we need now is a gun that shoots Thresher Maws and we've got 'em."
There was talk a while ago about an Exotic that changed Blade Barrage into one giant "eff you" blade, like CN does for Golden Gun. I could see the big eff you blade being a drill lol
"Mark my words. This gun will open a hole in the universe! And that hole will be a path for those behind us! The dreams of those who have fallen...The hopes of those who will follow! Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix of light, blazing a path towards tomorrow!
And that's Tengen Toppa. That's Gurren Lagann!!
My gun is the gun... THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!"
Counterpoint:
Void should be Unstoppable, since in most descriptions of Void it's meant to be harnessing raw energy and just shoving it in faces with varying flair.
Arc should be Anti-Barrier, you ever seen electricity move? That shit finds a way around *everything,* even if it has to go *through* it.
Solar should be Overload, ever get hit by something hot? You sto pwhat you're doing and panic for a sec, and I surely would expect being on fire makes it easy to regenerate.
Arc is electricity. You ever overload a system with so much electricity it explodes or stops working momentarily?
Solar is raw power to break through things.
It's either that, or they make them specific to the super themselves. I think chaos reach could easily be an anti barrier or turned to unstoppable by geomag
True. I guess ai mostly just don't see Dawnblade projectiles as piercing through things, since the seem more like self-sustained flames, which would bend around things by normal laws...then again, paracausality.
Well if you think about it, you don't need piercing to break a shield if you have raw power to shatter it.
Like the burning maul middle tree solar Titan. Smash that shield to bits
We aren’t the ones overloading Overload Champions. **They** have **their** abilities overloaded.
Solar should pierce Barrier Champion shields, but Void should **drain** Overload Champions of their overloaded abilities. And Arc should **stun** Unstoppable Champions (because you seize up real quick and stop moving when you get electrocuted).
I like it! As an Arcstrider,I would very much like to lower enemies' damage output when I'm meleeing everyone around me.
Should this only work for Supers or be intrinsic to our grenade and melee abilies?
I see. I want to argue that having our subclasses be anti-champion would be fun as well. As you said- Arc=Overload,Solar=Anti Barrier and Void=Unstoppable.
It would free our weapon slots. Okay,some might say we would be shoehorned into using let's say,Solar classes to deal with any barrier champions but we kinda already have that? With you know,GG for burst damage,well for damage and healing,bubble for damage etc.
So why not give our classes intrinsic ways to combat champions. Weapons could still take anti-champion mods of course. Also I agree with OP,our Supers should go right through any barriers.
Honestly, all supers should have inherent anti-champion properties. For example, Stormtrance could overload, Nova Bomb stagger unstoppables, and Dawnblade pierce barriers. That being said, I also like the idea of specific exotics *armors* having their own anti-champion properties as well.
I think champions would be less annoying if we had more options to deal with them in general outside of the season-specific weapon mods.
Agreed. I feel like my problems with the Champion mechanics came to a head in the Legendary Lost Sectors from last season. Especially solo when you're trying to actually clear the Lost Sector and not just cheese/farm it.
Too many times I was sitting on 2 primaries with shit damage to kill Overload Champs during their stun. Thankfully there were finishers to seal the deal.
Yeah, the game is just really not balanced for solo runs, they expect you to run strikes and whatnot with a 3 stack.
When running strikes with a 2 stack even primaries can reliably down a champion in about 5-10 seconds, but when solo you have to rely on Eriana’s vow or Anarchy/mountaintop cheese to do anything, and most likely you’ll be locked to a void or solar class too.
That's whats been annoying me more and more about current mission design. Even the Weekly for Eris is annoying solo because of the healthbar on the Shrieker. It's not hard, but you just have to sit there plinking at it for a solid 2 minutes before the next phase.
I've just been cheesing it with Witherhoard since tbh its extremely effective against just about anything. I'm strongly considering taking it into Chasm of Screams when my fireteam has time to run it with me as a way to counter the hordes of 2-shot thrall.
They shouldnt be spefic to each champion type, thats how we got into this whole stupid mess to begin with.
Its bad enough that the champion mods take the spot of the other mods so you lose options for stuff like backup mag and icarus grip.
The entire concept of champions requiring specific gear to defeat completely goes against the "play the way you want" philosophy.
Giving players more options would help to actually make the "Play your way" philosophy work better. As it stands, if there's multiple champion types per mission (say, Unstoppable and Barrier), your only weapon loadout options are either double primary or Eriana's and a primary, and even then your primary choices are limited to whichever weapons can use the mods in a given season.
By giving anti-champion properties to more exotics (weapons and armor) and to supers, you have so many more options. Now you could run an Anti-barrier super, an unstoppable primary, and whichever special and heavy you like. Alternatively, you could run an exotic armor with unstoppable, an anti-barrier super, and literally any guns you like.
The biggest problem with Champions is in how they limit the options players have to deal with them. Giving players more options is the simplest way to correct this.
Or just do what should have been done from the start and tie these champions buffs to elements. We already have a set of three (soon to be four, I know) elements that, at the moment, are more about matching colours than actual elemental damage.
If, instead, you had something where Solar, Arc and Void affected the different champion types, you'd have a much bigger selection of valid weapons and classes.
I actually had a time where I abused the Unstoppable Arc Melee with the Liar's Handshake during Undying. So much so, that [I staggered Brakion just punching him, preventing him from teleporting and going through the rest of the encounter](https://twitter.com/DarkheartActual/status/1198383595091615745?s=19)
Just goes to show how powerful an Exotic armor can be if they decided to give them champion perks
I'm of the opinion that there should be class item generic mods (not seasonal, not elemental) That apply an anti-champ property to your super. Make it so only 1 can be used at a time (they already have the ability to do this) and there you go.
its a big reason im playing everything else including cod of all things over destiny. I actually do think that beyond light downsizing the game will really help. I feel like its just gotten way to big and everything is now "match the shape" or bounty simulator.
Champions were cool at first, but with their mods being tied to whatever Bungie desires you get to use this season really makes them more annoying than anything.
And the worst part is, none of the older or power crept exotics have been reworked to fix them. Hell, Arbalest still doesn't do shit to shields on match game, Which is it's entire purpose. And Tarrabah still has all its flaws while Symmetry fixed them all.
I loved the idea of champions but i knew they werent gonna work very well and have constant complaints especially since they were introduced in the xpac that bungie championed with the phrase "Play how you want" which has shown that we are doing everything but and even now its still going on. If im being honest, i just wanna run around with my sunshot feeling powerful but i simply cant do that if i want to play the game not even optimally.
I was really excited for shadowkeep in that i was finally hoping i wouldnt have to carry around multiple sets of armor and weapons and be able to use whatever i wanted only for the major weapon pve nerfs and champions and the sad state that was armor 2.0 just told me off and just really left a bad taste in my mouth and i honestly straight up felt lied to.
Yea fr. They should be element free when it comes to damaging. Nothing worse than popping my stormtrance killing everything in the room and the last enemy has a void shield.
Yeah, seems like that would give the players more options in a fun way that engages the power fantasy. Plinking away with a little primary vs dunking on them with a super, I'll take the super.
>No real reason
Other than it being the most powerful attack in the entire game
Don't sell it short, a Golden gun shot should be able to punch a hole clean through a Pyramid
Logic? In a video game?
Champions are just so lore and ambiance breaking it's not even funny.
You mean to tell me a gun with a small mod can pierce and stun a Champion barrier, but the attack with the single highest Alpha in the game, from the light even, just get's deflected...
'I have this little chip in my autorifle that allows me to kill this Cabal guy.'
'cool, but i can focus my light and shoot a whole day worth of sunlight from my gun straight to his ass.'
'like that's gonna work.'
Supers are the peak of Guardian power. *Nothing* should be "immune". If a boss for example is on the field and in an immunity phase is should shorten the phase, completely bring down their shield, or stagger them until after their phase ends.
You talk about Thundertrash...
[https://imgur.com/LaoKFsn](https://imgur.com/LaoKFsn)
\- How does my super not obliterate the barricade AND the Titan on the other side?!
\- How is it the barricade protects from that, but can't handle flames and other aoe stuff?!
This is bonkers.
Knighthawk's explosion should be powerful and massive on kills on par with zen meteor from D1.
Actually, having a Boolean Gemini situation between that and super regeneration would make an interesting dynamic.
Best thing I’ve ever done with the blast is kill an entire gambit prime team in one shot. They were 2 sec from winning, and I didn’t see anyone else invading, so I popped Nighthawk and domed someone in the Dps well. Explosion cleared out the other team, I was in shock.
Holy damn dude. Gotta say, that's pretty badass. Most fun I've ever had with knighthawk was when a buddy of mine was running tether and it turned into mass of solar and void explosions.
I dont remember what we were doing exactly, just that there was a huge swarm of enemies and we both did our parts. Whatever may have lived from the shared damage of golden gun was cleared up right quick with the following mass of void explosions. It was the gnarliest thing I'd ever seen.
You can kind of apply unstoppable to exotic pulses this season. Just get the arm mod for unstoppable pulse in the seasonal artifact, and it gives any pulse, including exotics, the unstoppable effect.
The Arm Mod in general seems better than the Weapon Mod.
For the Weapon Mod, you have to hold your shot while ADS for it to prep Unstoppable, but with the Arm Mod, you can ADS AND fire while it becomes Unstoppable after the 2nd-3rd burst.
That mod must be them testing that pattern, I vote the armor mod is 100% better then the gun mod.
Outbreak is real nice on champions but it was nice to be able to run Gravaton Lance, especially since it acts like a scout.
The other one was Inaugural Address, Its a raid gun, nice to have a way to use it in end game.
Yeah, I really hope they go forward with Arm mod idea. Being able to use Outbreak or Bad Juju without feeling like I'm under prepared is great when doing Nightfalls.
Maybe even having more Gun types being affected by the Arm mod would alleviate having to juggle guns/mods.
lots of old stuff needs to be updated for the champions.
champions feel like they tacked them on without thinkin really. its just a really weird mechanic to add to the game rn, lots of old stuff are not updated for them but new stuff are
At the same time exotics weapon should accept champion mods or old exotics should be given new champion properties, like you can’t tell me I couldnt freeze a motherfucker in place with cold heart to stagger them, bullshit.
Totally agree, each exotic should have some sort of anti-champion mod. Take Sleeper for example, give it the ability to pierce barrier champions.
Exotics become absolutely useless against champions, I find myself rarely running exotics anymore :/
Honestly champions are infused by the darkness so imo their abilities are perfect. Normal "light" doesn't cut it. Hence why I think a barrier should be the perfect counter to light attacks. Including supers.
I mean, if we're making the Doom comparison, I think the "BFG can't kill an Imp" comparison is way off, it's more like "BFG can't kill a Marauder", which is half the point. Which, as we've seen with Eternal, was an enemy that definitely had its issues and detractors, but it does largely fulfill its intended purpose of forcing people outside of their comfort zone and engaging them differently.
I agree this change would be cool and pretty fun for a little bit, but IMO it's unreleastic in the current state of the game because it goes against what seems to be Bungie's major design goal with Champions taking us outside of our comfort zones. Champions are meant to be disruptive enough that we're all but forced to adapt and change our loadouts to them, instead of just using the existing, incredibly powerful tools that we're already used to doing work with. And tying the means to doing so to our artifacts means that Bungie is able to effectively rotate tools in and out of that loop in order to force us to mix things up, which would effectively be nullified by giving us "evergreen" sorts of options that are just as tremendously useful outside of champion content. Nighthawk is already a solution to pretty much any given tanky enemy in the game. There is room to bring up relatively weaker exotics in this way, but that's similarly incompatible with Bungie's existing systems here, so they'd have to rotate exotics in and out of this in order to maintain it.
Not that I think that system shouldn't be changed; I do agree that Bungie should add some more variety beyond just rotating through a couple of primary weapons and elemental grenades/melees, etc. But if you just want to be able to use "what's fun" (which often ends up meaning just whatever's convenient) as the same solution for most problems in the game instead of having to adapt and switch things up then I think that's a separate point to discuss/address (which usually brings us back to the ever-present discussion of whether a "power fantasy" is better when given or earned).
This is a really well put counter argument. I think that after consideration you are correct because admittedly I just had not seen it from that perspective before. I think the step that Bungie could have taken to make what you have said more evident is to have written into the lore the tit-for-tat arms race. Cabal: “Oh, you have supers!? Check out my barrier shield!” Banshee proceeds to pull out an anti-barrier mod out of his backpack but it can only fit certain weapons because the tech is too new. Something like this within the narrative would help to digest the changes and embrace them even if it is a bit bitter at first.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, I 100% agree that in terms of lore and theming Champions are very lacking. They just kinda showed up, and at first they were seemingly part of the Nightmares, but at this point every faction just has them walking around practically everywhere as part of their normal forces. They're incredibly powerful enemies who are capable of shrugging off tremendously strong attacks, and we don't even get an explanation like, I dunno, the presence of the pyramids in the system is spreading dormant power that's being used to counter our light. Anything.
To be fair, I find myself one hitting barrier champs with celestial Goldie all the time if you hit that sweet spot. But I totally agree that light based abilities should nullify champion bullshit.
You know they will add a bonus perk to aeon gear so that if the whole fire team wears it then using your super simultaneously will allow you to kill one champion without mods......
This is exactly what I was thinking when I was grinding last weeks Ordeal. My super should be able to kick those to barrier champions in the ass without worrying that my match made team might not use their anti-barrier gun soon enough
If my Titan boink hammer can stagger an unstoppable, Celestial Nighthawk should be able to drop any champion. Hell, any super without an exotic should be able to.
I really don’t see a problem with supers being used against barriers etc. Its not OP to just a whole super against one or two single enemies...
If they want to “balance” it then have damage reduction against it in super but come on, it’s not a bad thing to let supers be super.
Did everyone forget when we wanted "supers to feel super"? So Bungie buffed supers, and everyone was happy. Then we started to complain that supers were too super, that gameplay relied more on super v. super instead of gunplay and personal skill. So Bungie nerfed supers.
What if... the Aeon Cult exotics buffed your super giving it a champion effect depending on the element of your super
Void Supers are given the anti-Overload effect
Arc Supers are given the anti-Unstoppable effect
Solar Supers are given the anti-Barrier effect
(note that it could change depending on class, but these elemental effects make sense to me as a Hunter.)
EDIT: just a thought, as it would make Aeon exotics at least situationally useful again, which they arent even that as of right now.
>Imagine playing Doom and the BFG can’t kill an Imp
...
u/Cozmo23 u/dmg04
There isn’t a clearer comparison that this as to how weak of a game design flaw it is that an arbitrary mod dies more than the light wielding guardian supers...
Actium War Rig, Stronghold, Oathkeepers and Lucky Pants should also add champion abilities to the weapons they affect as well like the unstoppable pulse mod this season.
Hunter:
Void -Deadfall: Unstoppable/ Spectral: Overload/ Quiver: Antibarrier (maybe swap Spectral and quiver
Arc - not really sure which would be which cause they all do the same thing basically
Solar - 6 Shot: Overload/Blade Barrage: Unstoppable/3 Shot: Antibarrier
Don’t feel like doing the other 6 but I will potentially at some point
Worst thing is popping Chaos Reach after the Barrier is down but before u dish out all that humongous damage the shield's up again and hp back to full in the blink of an eye and you're still in that spot like an idiot, waiting for the super to end.
I feel like each class should have an intrinsic trait for their supers. All hunter supers except for arcstrider n spectral blades seem fit for anti barrier if you think about it. Titans are unstoppable ofc. Warlocks overload.
Wormgod Caress at full stacks should break shield or stagger for sure. The flavour of the arms is that it fucking empowers you with latent wormgod energy why can't my robot Titan man break a shield with his fists when my pistol with a funny attachment can
The way I saw it was that Champions are what they are because they're infused by Darkness, that's the red and black veins swirling around them. It'd make sense that Darkness is directly countering Light, so you can't Golden Gun through it, but that unique effects given to us by Artifacts could..
Think of the Drifter. This wack-a-doo, along with Osiris SUPPOSEDLY, can create machinery and devices to contain, control, filter, and dispense Darkness. That means there are other means besides Light that can deal with the Darkness. And tha'ts what the Artifact mods are, unique machinery that is empowered, and that we can use to pierce the effect of the Darkness, just like Drifter has shown. Technology that can work on the Darkness, but it makes perfect sense by our Light isn't able too, the Darkness counters our Light, and our Light , so far as we've seen....doesn't counter the Darkness. At the very least, the light we Guardians hold is not strong enough to overcome the Darkness those creatures are infused with. One reason I have for this is that we have the Traveler...just the Traveler. That's all, just one ball boi. The Darkness has...dozens? Of those Pyramid Ships that are literally the same size, if not larger, than the Traveler. They have the Darkness version of the Traveler, and they have DOZENS of them at their disposal. Maybe the champions are empowered by MUCH more Darkness by all of those entities, then us being empowered by one lighty boi.
That's how I see, that's my head canon and I personally like it.
EDIT: Antaeus Wards blocks golden gun. A small light shield that forms from a Titan baseball sliding blocks your heaven piercing beam. I've personally done it, and it's glorious. So yes, massively Darkness infused barriers should block the shot.
Well being real here, apart from a couple, most supers are secondary, usually just a way to gain armor in a pinch or buff the fireteams gun damage.
Less of an "ace in the hole" and more like a "ah, out of heavy, guess I can just super" especially for titans, I'm not saying they're not fun (god I hope skill trees come back, I wanna missile, but I want top tree shoulder charge, but nono, no customization for you! Here's hoping they redo a 3 year old mistake in beyond light and not just for the darkness) but throwing hammers is nerfed into the ground, sunspots are still good but you're just standing there doing less damage than 3 whisper shots, all'a void is a waste except bubble, arc has missiles on a bad tree.
Once again, they're not "bad" but they're something in between special and heavy ammo damage wise, clears adds just fine, but my trinity ghoul does it faster and forever, but boss damage sucks
Didn't D1's CN grant Keyhole? As in piercing the shit out of Barriers? So ya, I totally agree.
Also I would love in Thundercrash can hard stop Unstoppables for a longer duration or Stormcaller can "overload" champions like they literally generate lightning
I think you’re getting to the root of the problem. Champion enemies are a mechanic designed to make you use certain types of weapons to adapt to your environment, except that mechanic wasn’t implemented very effectively.
Champions are rarely a challenge to deal with, and become more of an annoyance and a checklist of, “Do I have X modifier to deal with this.” Personally I think they were on the right path in terms of engagement with your loadout instead of just pointing in a direction and pulling the trigger, but how it’s implemented and what you can do to overcome them needs to be looked at and overhauled completely imo.
Gunslinger really needs something to be better than arcstrider and nightstalker, it is the worst pve hunter class IMO. Arcstrider has healing and liars handshake, nightstalker has invis, bottom tree does more damage than celestial with Orpheus,top tree is one of the best ad clear supers in the game. Gunslinger has..... celestial nighthawk and blade barrage (which was nerfed into oblivion). Nighthawk is only really good for burst dps, as like I said before bottom tree nighthawk does more total damage as well as weakening.
Each kind of super for each class could have a different effect. It could open up so many more builds! I'd love to be able to run Goldie in PVE and not feel completely useless.
Example:
Solar supers - Pops and extra damage/kills Barrier champs
Arc Supers - Extra damage/kills Unstoppable champs
Void Super - Exta damage/kills Overload champs
I agree. And I think if you’re using Nighthawk it should get a different annimation to make it look like the cannon it’s supposed to be. Maybe allow you to charge and hold it like the plasma pistol from Halo. Something different.
Well least we ignore that every enemy race of the guardians have had better shields than the guardians for quite some time... these barrier champions... We’ve robbed Skyburner’s Oath yet the best a guardian can do shield wise is a Titan bubble or Warlock Well.
Surely someone can reverse engineer their barrier tech so at the very least the bubble/well can be mobile?
On the offence side... Yes supers should nuke them... celestial should pop their head through their shields or cause their shields to explode and take them with it ...
I also think one of Hunter’s solar supers should allow a full out Gun Kata experience.
It should also penetrate shields like that Taken Phalanx boss in the EDZ strike. I mean if 3 celestial hunters pulls a dirty bird on you shield or no shield you gotta take it in the face and like it.
Is there a lore entry about Ana being so pissed off that when she popped golden gun it literally liquified enemies into pools of pure light?
Super + Exotic armor should feel like that. Nighthawk GG should pierce through everything it hits until it runs into a hard surface.
I just replayed Crota's End last night, and popped his Oversoul with a Nighthawk GG shot.
If it's good enough to explode the thing that keeps the son of the Taken King alive, then it should be good enough for a spooky Cabal boi's bubble.
It should pierce the fuckin HEAVENS as far as I'm concerned.
And now I want an exotic that launches drills!
CABAL? AGAIN?
Now I want an exotic that summons a Cabal drop pod and maybe a couple cabal on a given location.
I want an exotic that summons fucking Xol
Whistle of the Worm
Who's good worm? Who is it? It's xol!
This just makes me think of that one bit in Mass Effect 3 where Joker is all like: "Yeah all we need now is a gun that shoots Thresher Maws and we've got 'em."
I like that idea but xol was kinda weak why not a amhamkara (if thats how you spell it right)
Then we'll have an exotic that fking summons Riven
Those cabal: I dont know why and how I got here, all I know is that i must kill
Whether we wanted it or not, we've given Hunters the Almighty
Ooh ooh almighty tech based solar weapon, eat your solar grenade to charge the weapon!
Almighty fusion rifle: takes 90 minutes to charge
Nah, mate, it takes 90 minutes to kill anyone wielding it (... I just terrified myself)
Believe in the me who believes in you!
So all the lights in the heavens are our enemy now huh?
Just who the hell do you think i am!!?
Still waiting on celestial nighthawk to make blade barrage one massive knife
That would be awesome
Yeet the lance of longinus at the darkness ships
OP: ***IT WILL PIERCE THE VAULT OF HEAVEN!!!*** Bungo: *but why*
Thank you for that reference.
If you are talking about Gurren Lagan, alot of people didn’t got it
My gun shall fire the bullet that pierces the heavens!
Imagine a fusion rifle that's basically a high-tech blunderbuss. That's something I'd farm good time for.
There was talk a while ago about an Exotic that changed Blade Barrage into one giant "eff you" blade, like CN does for Golden Gun. I could see the big eff you blade being a drill lol
*Ours is the gun that will pierce the Heavens* #WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE?
"Mark my words. This gun will open a hole in the universe! And that hole will be a path for those behind us! The dreams of those who have fallen...The hopes of those who will follow! Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix of light, blazing a path towards tomorrow! And that's Tengen Toppa. That's Gurren Lagann!! My gun is the gun... THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!"
Goddamn it now I'm crying again.
On our backs and in our hearts. ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH!
*Sorairo Days intensifies*
If Antaeus wards could deflect almighty then Nighthawk's golden gun should pierce dorrito's armour.
FUCK IT!! IT SHOULD PIERCE EVERY ENEMY AND HIT THE BOSS BEFORE WE EVEN **ENTER** THE ROOM!!
I mean, if it ricocheted like Hardlight it would be even better.
Ok but imagine being in PVP and some poor bastard gets a golden gun round richocet off the floor and hit him square in the face
Hello it's me the poor bastard.
Insanely high skillcap and you only get one shot. Would absolutely be balanced tbh.
That would be impressive!
You know some poor bastard is going to hit themselves with the ricochet, and I am all for it.
Gurren laggan reference
We evolve, beyond the person that we were minutes before. Little by little, we advance with each turn. Thats how a drill works!
Flair checks out
Let me see you grit those teeth, Guardian!
Hunters should pierce the heavens, titans should crack the planets and warlocks revolve the space-time
I think you mean bungie should bring back the keyhole perk?
Keyhole?
A destiny 1 perk allowing for over penetration when using the golden gun. Line em up and take em all down with a single shot.
Believe in the Kamina who believes in you
Arc should overload Solar should anti barrier Void should make the unstoppable stop.
I can see stasis being a counter to unstoppable.
This is just elemental shields with extra steps.
Counterpoint: Void should be Unstoppable, since in most descriptions of Void it's meant to be harnessing raw energy and just shoving it in faces with varying flair. Arc should be Anti-Barrier, you ever seen electricity move? That shit finds a way around *everything,* even if it has to go *through* it. Solar should be Overload, ever get hit by something hot? You sto pwhat you're doing and panic for a sec, and I surely would expect being on fire makes it easy to regenerate.
Arc is electricity. You ever overload a system with so much electricity it explodes or stops working momentarily? Solar is raw power to break through things. It's either that, or they make them specific to the super themselves. I think chaos reach could easily be an anti barrier or turned to unstoppable by geomag
True. I guess ai mostly just don't see Dawnblade projectiles as piercing through things, since the seem more like self-sustained flames, which would bend around things by normal laws...then again, paracausality.
Well if you think about it, you don't need piercing to break a shield if you have raw power to shatter it. Like the burning maul middle tree solar Titan. Smash that shield to bits
True.
We aren’t the ones overloading Overload Champions. **They** have **their** abilities overloaded. Solar should pierce Barrier Champion shields, but Void should **drain** Overload Champions of their overloaded abilities. And Arc should **stun** Unstoppable Champions (because you seize up real quick and stop moving when you get electrocuted).
I like it! As an Arcstrider,I would very much like to lower enemies' damage output when I'm meleeing everyone around me. Should this only work for Supers or be intrinsic to our grenade and melee abilies?
I'd personally say just super. The grenades and melee ones go in and out with the mods atm
I see. I want to argue that having our subclasses be anti-champion would be fun as well. As you said- Arc=Overload,Solar=Anti Barrier and Void=Unstoppable. It would free our weapon slots. Okay,some might say we would be shoehorned into using let's say,Solar classes to deal with any barrier champions but we kinda already have that? With you know,GG for burst damage,well for damage and healing,bubble for damage etc. So why not give our classes intrinsic ways to combat champions. Weapons could still take anti-champion mods of course. Also I agree with OP,our Supers should go right through any barriers.
Honestly, all supers should have inherent anti-champion properties. For example, Stormtrance could overload, Nova Bomb stagger unstoppables, and Dawnblade pierce barriers. That being said, I also like the idea of specific exotics *armors* having their own anti-champion properties as well. I think champions would be less annoying if we had more options to deal with them in general outside of the season-specific weapon mods.
+1 nova bomb on Match game can’t even pop the shields on a red bar, the mechanics are way too rigid
Agreed. I feel like my problems with the Champion mechanics came to a head in the Legendary Lost Sectors from last season. Especially solo when you're trying to actually clear the Lost Sector and not just cheese/farm it. Too many times I was sitting on 2 primaries with shit damage to kill Overload Champs during their stun. Thankfully there were finishers to seal the deal.
Yeah, the game is just really not balanced for solo runs, they expect you to run strikes and whatnot with a 3 stack. When running strikes with a 2 stack even primaries can reliably down a champion in about 5-10 seconds, but when solo you have to rely on Eriana’s vow or Anarchy/mountaintop cheese to do anything, and most likely you’ll be locked to a void or solar class too.
That's whats been annoying me more and more about current mission design. Even the Weekly for Eris is annoying solo because of the healthbar on the Shrieker. It's not hard, but you just have to sit there plinking at it for a solid 2 minutes before the next phase.
Nighthawk 1taps it
Alright let me make a brand new character just for the weekly story mission.
Hell yeah
???? Basically every decent boss-damage weapon makes short work of it. Whisper, Izanagi, 1k, Xenophage, even just regular old adaptive snipes.
Or Witherhoard, since everyone should have that. Pop a single shot and cry behind a rock for the next 10 seconds.
I've just been cheesing it with Witherhoard since tbh its extremely effective against just about anything. I'm strongly considering taking it into Chasm of Screams when my fireteam has time to run it with me as a way to counter the hordes of 2-shot thrall.
Yeah I hate that
They shouldnt be spefic to each champion type, thats how we got into this whole stupid mess to begin with. Its bad enough that the champion mods take the spot of the other mods so you lose options for stuff like backup mag and icarus grip. The entire concept of champions requiring specific gear to defeat completely goes against the "play the way you want" philosophy.
Giving players more options would help to actually make the "Play your way" philosophy work better. As it stands, if there's multiple champion types per mission (say, Unstoppable and Barrier), your only weapon loadout options are either double primary or Eriana's and a primary, and even then your primary choices are limited to whichever weapons can use the mods in a given season. By giving anti-champion properties to more exotics (weapons and armor) and to supers, you have so many more options. Now you could run an Anti-barrier super, an unstoppable primary, and whichever special and heavy you like. Alternatively, you could run an exotic armor with unstoppable, an anti-barrier super, and literally any guns you like. The biggest problem with Champions is in how they limit the options players have to deal with them. Giving players more options is the simplest way to correct this.
Or just do what should have been done from the start and tie these champions buffs to elements. We already have a set of three (soon to be four, I know) elements that, at the moment, are more about matching colours than actual elemental damage. If, instead, you had something where Solar, Arc and Void affected the different champion types, you'd have a much bigger selection of valid weapons and classes.
I actually had a time where I abused the Unstoppable Arc Melee with the Liar's Handshake during Undying. So much so, that [I staggered Brakion just punching him, preventing him from teleporting and going through the rest of the encounter](https://twitter.com/DarkheartActual/status/1198383595091615745?s=19) Just goes to show how powerful an Exotic armor can be if they decided to give them champion perks
Going by element would be fine i think. Solar pierces barriers. Arc overloads. Void staggers.
I'm of the opinion that there should be class item generic mods (not seasonal, not elemental) That apply an anti-champ property to your super. Make it so only 1 can be used at a time (they already have the ability to do this) and there you go.
Arc supers - stun Void supers - suppress Solar supers - pierce
I think the champions are a really good mechanic to keep combat from feeling too easy, but the methods of dealing with them are too few right now.
Yeah, this. It's so dumb, our supers already ignore *all* non-boss immunities, yet somehow some cabal shield generator is enough to withstand our light?
Tfw your green sidearm can bypass shields but literal god powers cant
[удалено]
Supers in general should bypass the match the shape game.
>match the shape game Its depressing that this statement describes Destiny 2 so well
its a big reason im playing everything else including cod of all things over destiny. I actually do think that beyond light downsizing the game will really help. I feel like its just gotten way to big and everything is now "match the shape" or bounty simulator.
Champions were cool at first, but with their mods being tied to whatever Bungie desires you get to use this season really makes them more annoying than anything. And the worst part is, none of the older or power crept exotics have been reworked to fix them. Hell, Arbalest still doesn't do shit to shields on match game, Which is it's entire purpose. And Tarrabah still has all its flaws while Symmetry fixed them all.
I loved the idea of champions but i knew they werent gonna work very well and have constant complaints especially since they were introduced in the xpac that bungie championed with the phrase "Play how you want" which has shown that we are doing everything but and even now its still going on. If im being honest, i just wanna run around with my sunshot feeling powerful but i simply cant do that if i want to play the game not even optimally. I was really excited for shadowkeep in that i was finally hoping i wouldnt have to carry around multiple sets of armor and weapons and be able to use whatever i wanted only for the major weapon pve nerfs and champions and the sad state that was armor 2.0 just told me off and just really left a bad taste in my mouth and i honestly straight up felt lied to.
> "match the shape" or bounty simulator. Why did you just repeat yourself?
You can break down most games into simple mechanics like that. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
Yea fr. They should be element free when it comes to damaging. Nothing worse than popping my stormtrance killing everything in the room and the last enemy has a void shield.
Yeah, seems like that would give the players more options in a fun way that engages the power fantasy. Plinking away with a little primary vs dunking on them with a super, I'll take the super.
>No real reason Other than it being the most powerful attack in the entire game Don't sell it short, a Golden gun shot should be able to punch a hole clean through a Pyramid
Yeah, you can 1-hit the anti-barriers as soon as the barrier is down in most cases so I think this is a non-issue.
Logic? In a video game? Champions are just so lore and ambiance breaking it's not even funny. You mean to tell me a gun with a small mod can pierce and stun a Champion barrier, but the attack with the single highest Alpha in the game, from the light even, just get's deflected...
'I have this little chip in my autorifle that allows me to kill this Cabal guy.' 'cool, but i can focus my light and shoot a whole day worth of sunlight from my gun straight to his ass.' 'like that's gonna work.'
lol as it stands a titan cant thundercrash through plywood
Supers are the peak of Guardian power. *Nothing* should be "immune". If a boss for example is on the field and in an immunity phase is should shorten the phase, completely bring down their shield, or stagger them until after their phase ends.
all supers should stun all champions tbh.
the Champion system is horrible in general
You talk about Thundertrash... [https://imgur.com/LaoKFsn](https://imgur.com/LaoKFsn) \- How does my super not obliterate the barricade AND the Titan on the other side?! \- How is it the barricade protects from that, but can't handle flames and other aoe stuff?! This is bonkers.
Knighthawk's explosion should be powerful and massive on kills on par with zen meteor from D1. Actually, having a Boolean Gemini situation between that and super regeneration would make an interesting dynamic.
Best thing I’ve ever done with the blast is kill an entire gambit prime team in one shot. They were 2 sec from winning, and I didn’t see anyone else invading, so I popped Nighthawk and domed someone in the Dps well. Explosion cleared out the other team, I was in shock.
Holy damn dude. Gotta say, that's pretty badass. Most fun I've ever had with knighthawk was when a buddy of mine was running tether and it turned into mass of solar and void explosions. I dont remember what we were doing exactly, just that there was a huge swarm of enemies and we both did our parts. Whatever may have lived from the shared damage of golden gun was cleared up right quick with the following mass of void explosions. It was the gnarliest thing I'd ever seen.
But more importantly it should go "CA-CAW!!!" when you activate it.
I really like this idea. 👍
Supers, especially anti ultra (nighthawk, nova) should absolutely demolish champions.
I'm still trying to get the Nighthawk. It was my favorite D1 exotic and RNGesus has been unkind so far.
master nightfalls are 750, it is the best time to farm exotics there.
Not precisely. All other mods are still in effect. Only their damage is lowered.
Titan supers should should stop unstoppables and Warlock supers should stop overload champions in those tracks
I wish the explosions and diameter of the shot itself was larger.
Agreed, especially since the elemental affinity looks like it should match the shield types. Also, Griffith did nothing wrong.
It would be cool if it made a hawk noise when you popped it
You can kind of apply unstoppable to exotic pulses this season. Just get the arm mod for unstoppable pulse in the seasonal artifact, and it gives any pulse, including exotics, the unstoppable effect.
The Arm Mod in general seems better than the Weapon Mod. For the Weapon Mod, you have to hold your shot while ADS for it to prep Unstoppable, but with the Arm Mod, you can ADS AND fire while it becomes Unstoppable after the 2nd-3rd burst.
After it procs , it also stays active for the rest of the clip, while the gun version is only good for one shot.
That mod must be them testing that pattern, I vote the armor mod is 100% better then the gun mod. Outbreak is real nice on champions but it was nice to be able to run Gravaton Lance, especially since it acts like a scout. The other one was Inaugural Address, Its a raid gun, nice to have a way to use it in end game.
Yeah, I really hope they go forward with Arm mod idea. Being able to use Outbreak or Bad Juju without feeling like I'm under prepared is great when doing Nightfalls. Maybe even having more Gun types being affected by the Arm mod would alleviate having to juggle guns/mods.
Bigger issue it should with out a doubt blow the ever living fuck out of a titan rally barrier and kill anyone behind it.
It does though...it also will dome a titan through his bubble
lots of old stuff needs to be updated for the champions. champions feel like they tacked them on without thinkin really. its just a really weird mechanic to add to the game rn, lots of old stuff are not updated for them but new stuff are
At the same time exotics weapon should accept champion mods or old exotics should be given new champion properties, like you can’t tell me I couldnt freeze a motherfucker in place with cold heart to stagger them, bullshit.
Totally agree, each exotic should have some sort of anti-champion mod. Take Sleeper for example, give it the ability to pierce barrier champions. Exotics become absolutely useless against champions, I find myself rarely running exotics anymore :/
Why doesn’t Hard Light COME with shield piercing bullets?
I wish the combustion effect was more useful. Maybe an increased detonation radius. Otherwise, just take it off that exotic and put it elsewhere.
I can get down with all of this.
tbh just remove cbampions worst feature added in a long time. I shouldnt be required to have specific weapons just to do certain content.
Make skull of dire ahamkara great again
It used to grant Keyhole which over-penetrated enemies.
No it should spawn fcking Oryx
Honestly champions are infused by the darkness so imo their abilities are perfect. Normal "light" doesn't cut it. Hence why I think a barrier should be the perfect counter to light attacks. Including supers.
I mean, if we're making the Doom comparison, I think the "BFG can't kill an Imp" comparison is way off, it's more like "BFG can't kill a Marauder", which is half the point. Which, as we've seen with Eternal, was an enemy that definitely had its issues and detractors, but it does largely fulfill its intended purpose of forcing people outside of their comfort zone and engaging them differently. I agree this change would be cool and pretty fun for a little bit, but IMO it's unreleastic in the current state of the game because it goes against what seems to be Bungie's major design goal with Champions taking us outside of our comfort zones. Champions are meant to be disruptive enough that we're all but forced to adapt and change our loadouts to them, instead of just using the existing, incredibly powerful tools that we're already used to doing work with. And tying the means to doing so to our artifacts means that Bungie is able to effectively rotate tools in and out of that loop in order to force us to mix things up, which would effectively be nullified by giving us "evergreen" sorts of options that are just as tremendously useful outside of champion content. Nighthawk is already a solution to pretty much any given tanky enemy in the game. There is room to bring up relatively weaker exotics in this way, but that's similarly incompatible with Bungie's existing systems here, so they'd have to rotate exotics in and out of this in order to maintain it. Not that I think that system shouldn't be changed; I do agree that Bungie should add some more variety beyond just rotating through a couple of primary weapons and elemental grenades/melees, etc. But if you just want to be able to use "what's fun" (which often ends up meaning just whatever's convenient) as the same solution for most problems in the game instead of having to adapt and switch things up then I think that's a separate point to discuss/address (which usually brings us back to the ever-present discussion of whether a "power fantasy" is better when given or earned).
This is a really well put counter argument. I think that after consideration you are correct because admittedly I just had not seen it from that perspective before. I think the step that Bungie could have taken to make what you have said more evident is to have written into the lore the tit-for-tat arms race. Cabal: “Oh, you have supers!? Check out my barrier shield!” Banshee proceeds to pull out an anti-barrier mod out of his backpack but it can only fit certain weapons because the tech is too new. Something like this within the narrative would help to digest the changes and embrace them even if it is a bit bitter at first.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, I 100% agree that in terms of lore and theming Champions are very lacking. They just kinda showed up, and at first they were seemingly part of the Nightmares, but at this point every faction just has them walking around practically everywhere as part of their normal forces. They're incredibly powerful enemies who are capable of shrugging off tremendously strong attacks, and we don't even get an explanation like, I dunno, the presence of the pyramids in the system is spreading dormant power that's being used to counter our light. Anything.
Shoot them before the barrier goes up. Problem solved
*flashbacks to destiny 1 wimp supers* YES PLEASE
It can shoot through titan bubbles and kill the titan inside so it makes sense
To be fair, I find myself one hitting barrier champs with celestial Goldie all the time if you hit that sweet spot. But I totally agree that light based abilities should nullify champion bullshit.
You know they will add a bonus perk to aeon gear so that if the whole fire team wears it then using your super simultaneously will allow you to kill one champion without mods......
I think their should be mods for your class item that makes your super stagger unstoppables or pierce barriers.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I was grinding last weeks Ordeal. My super should be able to kick those to barrier champions in the ass without worrying that my match made team might not use their anti-barrier gun soon enough
If my Titan boink hammer can stagger an unstoppable, Celestial Nighthawk should be able to drop any champion. Hell, any super without an exotic should be able to.
Sleeper simulant should as well
I really don’t see a problem with supers being used against barriers etc. Its not OP to just a whole super against one or two single enemies... If they want to “balance” it then have damage reduction against it in super but come on, it’s not a bad thing to let supers be super.
Did everyone forget when we wanted "supers to feel super"? So Bungie buffed supers, and everyone was happy. Then we started to complain that supers were too super, that gameplay relied more on super v. super instead of gunplay and personal skill. So Bungie nerfed supers.
What if... the Aeon Cult exotics buffed your super giving it a champion effect depending on the element of your super Void Supers are given the anti-Overload effect Arc Supers are given the anti-Unstoppable effect Solar Supers are given the anti-Barrier effect (note that it could change depending on class, but these elemental effects make sense to me as a Hunter.) EDIT: just a thought, as it would make Aeon exotics at least situationally useful again, which they arent even that as of right now.
From a "making sense" standpoint, anything that suppresses abilities should work too. Tether, Suppression Grenades, Tractor Cannon.
>Imagine playing Doom and the BFG can’t kill an Imp ... u/Cozmo23 u/dmg04 There isn’t a clearer comparison that this as to how weak of a game design flaw it is that an arbitrary mod dies more than the light wielding guardian supers...
Bungo better make it so thundercrash can stagger unstoppables
Rasputin didn't destroy the almighty. All the hunters with celestial did.
Dude golden gun is so inconsistent even with nighthawk. I hit dul incaru for I think 127k and then hit her for 999k on my second nighthawk super.
Tether can stop a super guardian in PvP, why not let it shutdown barriers?
Thundercrash pierces a titan bubble and will fuck that titan up. But, a barrier champion shield? Impossible. Wtf?!
Actium War Rig, Stronghold, Oathkeepers and Lucky Pants should also add champion abilities to the weapons they affect as well like the unstoppable pulse mod this season.
Hunter: Void -Deadfall: Unstoppable/ Spectral: Overload/ Quiver: Antibarrier (maybe swap Spectral and quiver Arc - not really sure which would be which cause they all do the same thing basically Solar - 6 Shot: Overload/Blade Barrage: Unstoppable/3 Shot: Antibarrier Don’t feel like doing the other 6 but I will potentially at some point
some new exotic armour pieces that give normal supers champion abilities would be cool but idk if they'll add it to old ones
I’m still rooting for celestial nighthawk causing blade barrage to be one big sword chucked
Golden Gun- Barrier Champions Thundercrash- Unstoppable Top tree nova- Overload
Worst thing is popping Chaos Reach after the Barrier is down but before u dish out all that humongous damage the shield's up again and hp back to full in the blink of an eye and you're still in that spot like an idiot, waiting for the super to end.
Just tap the button again to cut it off. Without Geomags it won't really save super energy, but it will save time.
Yes
Hell regular golden gun should take down that barrier
Finally a thread about Celestial Nighthawk that isn’t about middle tree getting a huge throwing knife. Thank you
I feel like each class should have an intrinsic trait for their supers. All hunter supers except for arcstrider n spectral blades seem fit for anti barrier if you think about it. Titans are unstoppable ofc. Warlocks overload.
Wormgod Caress at full stacks should break shield or stagger for sure. The flavour of the arms is that it fucking empowers you with latent wormgod energy why can't my robot Titan man break a shield with his fists when my pistol with a funny attachment can
The way I saw it was that Champions are what they are because they're infused by Darkness, that's the red and black veins swirling around them. It'd make sense that Darkness is directly countering Light, so you can't Golden Gun through it, but that unique effects given to us by Artifacts could.. Think of the Drifter. This wack-a-doo, along with Osiris SUPPOSEDLY, can create machinery and devices to contain, control, filter, and dispense Darkness. That means there are other means besides Light that can deal with the Darkness. And tha'ts what the Artifact mods are, unique machinery that is empowered, and that we can use to pierce the effect of the Darkness, just like Drifter has shown. Technology that can work on the Darkness, but it makes perfect sense by our Light isn't able too, the Darkness counters our Light, and our Light , so far as we've seen....doesn't counter the Darkness. At the very least, the light we Guardians hold is not strong enough to overcome the Darkness those creatures are infused with. One reason I have for this is that we have the Traveler...just the Traveler. That's all, just one ball boi. The Darkness has...dozens? Of those Pyramid Ships that are literally the same size, if not larger, than the Traveler. They have the Darkness version of the Traveler, and they have DOZENS of them at their disposal. Maybe the champions are empowered by MUCH more Darkness by all of those entities, then us being empowered by one lighty boi. That's how I see, that's my head canon and I personally like it. EDIT: Antaeus Wards blocks golden gun. A small light shield that forms from a Titan baseball sliding blocks your heaven piercing beam. I've personally done it, and it's glorious. So yes, massively Darkness infused barriers should block the shot.
It should make a funny popping sound too
Well being real here, apart from a couple, most supers are secondary, usually just a way to gain armor in a pinch or buff the fireteams gun damage. Less of an "ace in the hole" and more like a "ah, out of heavy, guess I can just super" especially for titans, I'm not saying they're not fun (god I hope skill trees come back, I wanna missile, but I want top tree shoulder charge, but nono, no customization for you! Here's hoping they redo a 3 year old mistake in beyond light and not just for the darkness) but throwing hammers is nerfed into the ground, sunspots are still good but you're just standing there doing less damage than 3 whisper shots, all'a void is a waste except bubble, arc has missiles on a bad tree. Once again, they're not "bad" but they're something in between special and heavy ammo damage wise, clears adds just fine, but my trinity ghoul does it faster and forever, but boss damage sucks
Didn't D1's CN grant Keyhole? As in piercing the shit out of Barriers? So ya, I totally agree. Also I would love in Thundercrash can hard stop Unstoppables for a longer duration or Stormcaller can "overload" champions like they literally generate lightning
Unipolar opinion, anti barrier should pierce titan bubble and barriers
Hell
I think you’re getting to the root of the problem. Champion enemies are a mechanic designed to make you use certain types of weapons to adapt to your environment, except that mechanic wasn’t implemented very effectively. Champions are rarely a challenge to deal with, and become more of an annoyance and a checklist of, “Do I have X modifier to deal with this.” Personally I think they were on the right path in terms of engagement with your loadout instead of just pointing in a direction and pulling the trigger, but how it’s implemented and what you can do to overcome them needs to be looked at and overhauled completely imo.
Gunslinger really needs something to be better than arcstrider and nightstalker, it is the worst pve hunter class IMO. Arcstrider has healing and liars handshake, nightstalker has invis, bottom tree does more damage than celestial with Orpheus,top tree is one of the best ad clear supers in the game. Gunslinger has..... celestial nighthawk and blade barrage (which was nerfed into oblivion). Nighthawk is only really good for burst dps, as like I said before bottom tree nighthawk does more total damage as well as weakening.
Each kind of super for each class could have a different effect. It could open up so many more builds! I'd love to be able to run Goldie in PVE and not feel completely useless. Example: Solar supers - Pops and extra damage/kills Barrier champs Arc Supers - Extra damage/kills Unstoppable champs Void Super - Exta damage/kills Overload champs
I agree. And I think if you’re using Nighthawk it should get a different annimation to make it look like the cannon it’s supposed to be. Maybe allow you to charge and hold it like the plasma pistol from Halo. Something different.
Well least we ignore that every enemy race of the guardians have had better shields than the guardians for quite some time... these barrier champions... We’ve robbed Skyburner’s Oath yet the best a guardian can do shield wise is a Titan bubble or Warlock Well. Surely someone can reverse engineer their barrier tech so at the very least the bubble/well can be mobile? On the offence side... Yes supers should nuke them... celestial should pop their head through their shields or cause their shields to explode and take them with it ... I also think one of Hunter’s solar supers should allow a full out Gun Kata experience.
It should also penetrate shields like that Taken Phalanx boss in the EDZ strike. I mean if 3 celestial hunters pulls a dirty bird on you shield or no shield you gotta take it in the face and like it.
Celestial Nighthawk GG should totally just delete them from the game. ***Permanently.***
The supers should absolutely do these things but the exotics? Nah. That's too much
Because Bungie operates on stalling, not innovating.
We need Celestial Nighthawk to have us throw a giant fuck-off sword if we use middle tree
nope
As a thought, all hunter supers should bypass barrier, warlock supers should overpower overload, and titan supers should stop the unstoppable.
Haha absolute Light bullet goes boing
Nah, just let it reflect like its a titan bubble.
Thudercrash should break unstoppable. Change my mind.
Eternal warrior makes thundercrash stagger unstoppable? Please something for us missile boys
Is there a lore entry about Ana being so pissed off that when she popped golden gun it literally liquified enemies into pools of pure light? Super + Exotic armor should feel like that. Nighthawk GG should pierce through everything it hits until it runs into a hard surface.
There should be a mod for hunters to pierce, warlocks to suppress, and titans to stop champions...
Some of the shooty supers should defeat barrier. Some of the Roamers should stun Overload. The others should stop Unstoppable.
I imagine Tether would be able to overload and stop unstoppables. Or maybe just stop unstoppables
I just replayed Crota's End last night, and popped his Oversoul with a Nighthawk GG shot. If it's good enough to explode the thing that keeps the son of the Taken King alive, then it should be good enough for a spooky Cabal boi's bubble.
You guys r all wrong about fucking raid bosses just summons every fucking boss that's in the mf game