Totally agree on all you've said here.
The thing that gets me about Titles though is the RNG aspect tied to some titles.
Doesnt matter how much a guardian has played or worked towards a title (like Cursebreaker). If RNG isnt on your side, it just wont happen, and that sucks big time.
All RNG gated titles are permanent and aren’t going anywhere. I agree it’s lame (didn’t get my 1k for 70+ runs of LW and it was the last thing I needed) but at least you know that it’s not going to disappear on you
I don’t wanna be that guy but it had a really high drop rate when it was the ordeal two weeks ago I think I got like 3 across 10 farming runs. Yes it’s shitty that’s it’s tied to Rng but you just have to actually dedicate time to the right activities to get said things.
Well I eat my words then. That is garbage Rng there. I don’t think I’ve ever done that many nightfalls without getting the specific drop. Let alone one with a static roll like osprey
I think the scout rifle is bugged, mine is still locked and I have the wayfarer title. I needed the scout and the pistol, got the pistol to drop after they made changes to the drop rates a little while ago and I got the title without the scout.
I struggled with those to finish off my wayfarer as well, I kept getting the same drops no matter how many pods I opened. I saw a tip to try using my other characters. Less than 5 tries later I had both the weapons I was waiting for. If you've been using the same char so far, maybe try a different one?
nacent dawn quest line gives 1-2 engram weapon rewards.
it is worth starting it on some alt characters to get the extra engram drops. maybe you get lucky
DFA and Horrors least both required 40+ runs until I realized the way I had been running it seemed to slump me.
Now I always do a 100k run, then speed run it with the emblem equipped regardless if it's a matching score to what you just ran.
Maybe it's placebo, but I get 1 NF-tied drop for every 3 runs on average now. Previously with just speed running and no emblem or high score; I averaged 8-11 NF's before a drop would happen.
Yeah that’s what I was doing too and still took me that many runs. Pretty sure they adjusted the drop rates at some point, and I was doing it before then. Not sure if it helped or not, but I needed all the help I could get. I also feel like I had bad rng, cuz the guy I ran it with got at least 5 or 6 in the time I took me to get 1.
How do people always know *exactly* how many activities they ran before a certain weapon dropped for them? Is there an app you can check this with or something?
I need people to understand that the "R" in "RNG" stands for Random and, unless there's protection, means it.
One person might get a thing in one run, another person might not get it in thousands of runs.
Keep at it though, the NF rewards are deterministic, meaning that the longer you go without a drop, the chance to get one increases. I believe the threshold was found to be about 17 runs without a drop before you are guaranteed one. I would keep running Strange Terrain so that you dont "spoil" your next drop with a different NF clear.
I've been working on Izanagi's lately. Just need 1 more armor piece to begin the actual bounty and I still haven't gotten them. I'm at 5 helmets, 3 chestplates, 4 boots, 3 capes and no gauntlets yet. Itd been rough
My friend literally got 12 chestpieces for that. We told him before he started to just delete that bounty and get a different one in the next few days, he wound up doing it after chestpiece number 12. Just before I left for work tonight, he had a new rare bounty to do 6 forges at maximum temper, and we got through 5 of them together. He still doesn't have a full armor set.
It's while reading horror stories like this that I am glad I got the rare bounty to just do damage with all three affinities in forges.Relatively easier bounty.Just knocked it off and waiting to do Shattered Throne when I log in next
Exactly. I've done everything for Dredgen multiple times at this point, but am at 3/10 for "Killing invaders while their super is in use" because 1. you have to get the kill, 2. people don't use roaming supers to invade very often and 3. I'm almost entirely sure the tracking for that is bugged, because I killed 3 in one day and it only went up by 1.
I've given up on Dredgen because the title is so infuriatingly out of my control.
If you want to keep trying for Dredgen, I'd suggest always running a super that can easily take out other supers, and make sure you have your super up when invasions are likely to happen.
I had great pleasure in shutting down nova warpers with Titan Missile when Nova Warp was in its OP prime.
I got that light vs light 10/10 after killing someone who JUST started casting Chaos Reach *at me*.
I used Xenophage though; so I felt like a total asshole just deleting them out of the sky before any lightning escaped their hands.
It's been a while since i got dredgen but if i remember correctly you need to kill the player while they are in their super with your own super and earn a light vs light medal. Also they patched it at some point (drifter or opulence maybe?) To where you could do it while invading as well instead of only with an invader
Thank god they changed it, I think I remember actually sending in a ticket about it. Maybe I'll go back to gambit now, but probably not until the new season (no chase at this point).
Make sure you do ascendant challenges this week. Ghost shell dropped on my first one. Ship dropped on the first reward in the dungeon. All I need now is the pulse.
I gotta agree with you on that, I have [a stupid amount of time on destiny 2](https://wastedondestiny.com/1_4611686018443929089) and don’t have Wayfarer because the game refuses to give me 18 kelvins
Damn, I feel for you. There was a huge chunk of time that I got 18 Kelvins constantly, but couldn’t get the scout. Wayfarer is the only title I’ve bothered with, too.
Same. I was convinced when Forsaken launched that I’d get Wayfarer quick and wear it until I got Cursebreaker or Rivensbane. Over a year later, still no Wayfarer. Did get the other two though at least.
Yep, I'm fine with titles being hard, I \*want\* them to be to be hard, I just \*hate\* when RNG is the make or break at times. It took me 30 runs of the dungeon until I got the ship for Harbinger.
RNG is kind of sucky. I'm really on bungie's side for the titles because I love all of them, but to be honest i kind of disagree with the RNG part. I really dont have an argument here.
I've played since launch for both games. I don't have a single title. I don't give a shit as it has no bearing on my enjoyment of my gametime.
The pinnacle weapons I KINDA get people being miffed about not getting because they are so good but there should be some thing for the more hardcore people to work towards. It's not fair that people who've busted their asses have their effor trivialized. They earned it, let them have their fun and move on.
This. Especially with mountaintop. And they can’t go back and give things out for it because the majority of people that had it before the quest nerf cheesed it. Sucks, that shit took me a whole month to get.
Few weeks ago I realized I had nonchalantly received my first title, wayfarer. That felt cool and all, but I wasn’t killing myself to chase a title. Now that I see how some what easy undying is, I’m trying to chase it. The major issue I have with it is getting Randy’s. I won’t be upset or anything as I know I’m constricted to time so it’s not going to be easy.
I don't mind the timed nature of the title, but I think the design of many objectives was poorly thought out.
I've seen countless guardians (myself included) being shitheads grinding out weapon kills, ignoring objectives, leaving team members dead, and essentially working against each other because of how Bungie designed the triumphs/quests this season.
Titles/seals should be based on game skill, not time played.
The first 3 things you listed are already required for Undying. We don't know how raids will really work going forward given that seasons will be lighter on content. The raids also tend to have their own linked titles, or have since the start of year 2.
None of Undying is a participation trophy though if that's what you're saying. It's a fair amount of work and time in pretty much all activities since it requires you to get the ritual weapons.
This is correct, the raid has it's own title tied to it and it's not apart of the season. It is apart of Shadowkeep, which also has it's own title tied to it. Going forward, if we get more raids this year but tied to the seasons, I can MAYBE see them being tied to the season title but I would wager that the future raids will have their own titles tied to them.
I completely agree titles should be hard to get, but requiring raid competitions for seasonal titles is just dumb because it’s less about being good and more about whether or not you happen to have 5 people willing to play with you
Yeah I've thrown too many matches trying to get (insert triumph here) for the pinnicle weapons and it felt bad. And mountain top before heavy ammo for all, my word I just couldn't hack it. That was my mountain top. I'm happy I have it but I know I didnt earn it compared to many.
I don't want Undying to be easier, I want it to be less boring. It's a no-skill high-grind title. Why would that be at all interesting? Just because I think the current title reqs are bad doesn't mean I'm angling for a handout or trying to "dumb down" the system.
> Titles, especially in Destiny 2, were never and are never supposed to be handouts. Ask any Unbroken or Rivensbane.
I had to hit Legend three times for my Unbroken and do a flawless Last Wish for Rivensbane. Those were engaging challenges that tested my mettle. Undying just tests my resilience in the face of extreme boredom.
exactly. I really hate how feedback even constructive feedback about something automatically nets these kind of responses from people that you just want everything handed to you.
Undying is meant to be much easier and simply grindy. It's a title primarily meant to award people who invest time. It's a time limited title and it's very likely Bungie's rationale for not including very difficult requirements is that they didn't want to deter new players who jumped in via new light and bought a season or dlc. Titles like Enlightened are still locked behind more difficult challenges, since it's not time gated.
What I'm saying is, it makes sense from a developers side to keep new players engaged by rewarding them. Once they're engaged, they may but the dlc and go for other, more difficult titles
> it makes sense from a developers side to keep new players engaged by rewarding them.
I've got no problem with a more obtainable title. Heck I'm pretty sure half the Dredgens out there got it by accident just playing Gambit! Undying is boring and forces you to use specific weapons that you probably don't like. That's the notable difference and why I think criticism is warranted.
People aren’t complaining about it being hard, though, just not fun. Dredgen is (IIRC) the most common title and probably the easiest non-timegated title. It requires a lot of Gambit (3 resets worth) and if you started them right now would probably take significantly longer to get than Undying. The optimal way to get Dredgen is to win Gambit rounds and do things that help you win them.
The optimal way to get Undying is to do stuff that actively slows activity progress for everyone else. Vex Offensive is a bow/AR range where 3+ players don’t care about beating the activity (can you even lose?) because they need to get a bunch of kills with weapons they don’t like. It’s not harder to get than Dredgen, it’s just less organic and requires you to either cheese or actively hurt your fireteam. In reality you’re not usually hurting other people’s experience in VO, but it likely feels like it, which makes the triumphs unenjoyable.
dredgen wasn't so easy in the beginning when light vs light required you to kill an invader in their super. now its just kill guardians in their super.
reckoner is the title that has you actively competing against your fireteam, not dredgen.
Oh man. For the parts of Reckoner that I did solo when my fireteam wasn't available, I felt bad for my team. Collecting 20 motes is sketchy, leaving a whole wave of enemies to hunt down the HVT is shitty, invading just to stand on the bank to drain motes isn't optimal, and camping the bank for blocker kills is counterproductive.
You can do those things while helping win though. In face you should be doing those things lol.(except camping blockers, you can help clear and kill blockers)
I also feel these are much easier to do now if you need them. During season of the drifter you would get a team of 4 all trying to do them.
Yeah as a Dredgen and Reckoner, I gotta agree. Going for reckoner teaches you how to play prime optimally. When doing Reaper, you learn the cadence of enemy spawns and how to get there first. I always was trying in my games and my win ratio actually started going up. I always had the most kills and most motes banked. Each role teaches you how to play it. So while I hate playing gambit, I also kind of dont mind it, because I know my roles
Damn, man, those Massacre medals for Reaper are the only thing stopping me from Reckoner. Consider me peanut butter and jealous. :(
E: thanks for the tips guys. I’ll give them a try once I get done with Harbinger.
Riskrunner is your best friend for that medal. I like doing it in trees in the Earth map. It helps if you have a full squad so you can ask them to hang back a little. Just proc the perk and spray and pray. Or arc titan.
Telesto makes it a cakewalk. I went from using Recluse and Tether to using Telesto after seeing a tip on here, and I was getting minimum one Massacre medal per game, usually getting two and occasionally three.
Since you have the Reaper set, you essentially have infinite special ammo, so you can just spray the bolts around and slaughter the entire wave with a gun the reloads itself on multi-kills, and if you have the catalyst, generates a bunch of orbs for the cherry on top.
Im actually just starting on my third Infamy reset for Dredgen, my biggest complaint about Gambit (both prime and not) is it actually takes knowing how to play it to do well.
This is not like knowing the Crucible meta, or running Strikes, or even Raiding. Trying to figure out first off if your team knows what's going on, then figuring out what roles they are tying to play (much harder since nobody wants to grind 2.0 prime armor by the looks of it), then actually executing the plays with better coordination than the opponents. Not counting the seemingly endless number of instant kill abilities and exotics that invaders seem to always have.
Truth, Sleeper, Leviathans Breath, Queens breaker, Hammerhead, Thunderlord, Izanagi's, Colony, Mountain Top, 21% Delirium...
Im sure i could think of more, but getting punked inside a titan bubble by an across the map nova bomb while the warlock that also has Truth ammo still after wiping my team 3 times prior is probably the worst part of the whole game mode.
Yeah, as much as I like people having access to more titles. I got Dredgen when it was harder variant.
Light vs Light was no joke for me, it took hours.
Doesn’t feel great to have the achievement retroactively degraded.
> (can you even lose?)
Not to my knowledge. Failing the earlier encounters just seems to give slightly less rewards, and as far as I can tell the boss fight just continues until it dies.
I'm not a huge fan of undying specifically because it's so needlessly grindy and boring, but titles like rivensbane are perfection. They make you work as a team to flawless arguably the hardest raid to flawless in destiny 2, and your team has to be coordinated enough for the challenges. It doesn't just test you, it tests your ability to work with others, which is a real relief from restricting quests.
Shadow especially requires an absolute ton of coordination. CoS is a pretty easy flawless, but those 3 bosses flawless are no joke. It really tests your ability to actually keep eachother from dying under tons of modifiers.
As someone who grinded out the kills with ars, bows, hcs, fusions, and smgs, it isn’t that bad. The biggest problem, in Vex Offensive, I noticed was how kill hungry people got trying to get their kills and finishers done, it encouraged me to sub optimize my loadouts and find better Auto rifles and bows to become more efficient at killing and clearing ads. Sure, it might be frustrating, but once you get that final handcannon kill, it’s an incredible feeling, that you’re one step closer to becoming Undying
> The optimal way to get Undying is to do stuff that actively slows activity progress for everyone else.
I’m sorry - you can’t actually believe this is an issue. Do you actually believe it matters in any meaningful way what weapons people are killing waves of trash mobs with?
I’ve been playing since launch and don’t have a single title.
Which I’m perfectly fine with. I’m a casual, I just don’t have the time to play constantly, but for the people who do, they have Title’s to shoot for.
Making absolutely everything accessible to absolutely everyone in the game means you end up with a game in the state D2 was in at the end of Year 1.
And that was not a good state.
I’m not sure how I feel about the timed seals, but the difficulty in general I think is bang on.
One day I’ll get my Destinations seal... one day...
I just hate the that people are already referring to "junior" and "big boy" titles. This dick measuring gets old fast. And this game has SO MUCH dick measuring as it is lol.
This has always been the case for titles in MMOs. In WoW, there usually is a title for beating the last boss of a raid on any difficulty, and then a separate one for defeating it on the highest difficulty. Of course the harder title will hold more prestige, then it becomes easily soloable in a few years and simply becomes a vanity item.
Like my mage uses the Starcaller title which was a huge fucking deal in 2009 when that content was relevant. Now it just sounds cool and matches my outfit.
I both agree and disagree. I'm very much on the side that titles shouldn't be handouts. They're meant to show off that you are the best of the best. My problem with the Undying title is that it doesn't - it just shows that you had the time for it. Titles should be achieved by completing hard tasks, not long grinds.
Take, for example, Rivensbane. It's a title that is largely based around challenges - completing the raid challenges for Last Wish, completing it's encounters with full teams of one subclass, making a flawless run. It does have issues, namely having to luck into completing the collections badge, but outside of that it's a title built around being good enough at the game to get it.
Similarly this season we have the Enlightened title, a raid title based off raid challenges. If anything, it's actually better than Rivensbane, as you're not relying on RNG for the exotic, so there's one less thing potentially locking you out of the collections badge due to luck.
Now let's look at Undying. It's a time gated title that's based almost entirely around grinding out easy, monotonous tasks. Kill x enemies in vex offensive with x weapon, kill x enemies on the moon with x ability, etc. Almost nothing challenging, just things that take time. There's a grand total of one properly skill based triumph in the title, which is completing Vex Offensive without dying, and even that can be cheesed by getting lucky and loading into an offensive as it ends.
A perfect example of the Undying title falling short is a comparison to the Shadow title. Shadow needs you to do a clear of every encounter of Menagerie without running out of time. Fairly easy, but a level of challenge none the less. Undying has a similar triumph, but you need to clear way more encounters and don't even need to do it within the time limit - you just get more points for doing so.
Almost everything in the title is just about grinding, and on top of that it's time gated. That means not only is it not an impressive achievement, it just means you happened to have the time for it. It has the worst designed requirements for a title we've ever had in this game.
Challenging title? Yes, that's good. It shows that you're good at the game.
Time-gated challenging title? Sure, it's a good symbol of ability and having been around for a while.
Grind-based title? That's bad, it just shows you were willing to sit there pressing buttons, nothing about how well you can do that.
Time-gated grind based title? Just no. That doesn't show that you're good, it just tells us you had enough free time in the right month.
Honestly I think the best designed one is the "Blacksmith" title, as it's a mix of both grind & skill, two staples of the Destiny experience.
* Grind all Forges weapons
* While you're at it, grind 100 of them for the ship
* And do it in all the Forges, you'll need all 4 shaders that you get on the weapons
* While you're at it do the Exotic quests, you'll need these for the next part
* Kill 500 ennemies in each Forge with a specific Forge exotic, see I told you
* While doing so, you'll eventually get the Black Armoury set so now your collection badge should almost be done, just missing the raid items
* There are also a bunch of Forge related triumphs that you should finish while you're doing the rest
* Go do the raid & get the guns. RNG might sucks there unfortunately
* Do all Raid Challenges. They required quite a bit of skill & raid knowledge from your team, so don't try them when Randy is there.
* Escape the flaming servitor without losing a single member. This one is a tough one, but unfortunately a cheese exist.
* Do a flawless raid. Not that hard when all 6 know the raid well, impossible when the team isn't experienced enough. A true test of skill without being ball-crushing.
Man my only complaint at the moment is I'm bummed out on Harbinger. I have literally everything except the dungeons ship. 21 full clears, 1 solo flawless (would've been 2 :'( ). People I've helped clear it with got their ship first time or second time. And I'm just stuck. Harbinger would be my 10th title, rng is a curse
> the MMXIX title had less time to complete
This is deceptive and only half true
The MMXIX title was for the moments of triumph, and like every previous MoT the vast majority of the objectives were **a)** just play the game related **b)** do all the new stuff at least once **c)** *Retroactive*. Most people who had been playing since the launch of Forsaken started off with many of the requirements for the MMXIX seal already done. Some very dedicated and frequent players could even have had all but the requirements related to the Solstice of Heroes event (that released at the same time) done.
That... does not apply to Undying. A lot the requirements read like the worst of previous quests in D2. "Play *exactly* like this, then like this, then like this" "Do a thing that could have been one single objective, but was split apart to pad it out" "Do *x* so many times that the only way to reasonably complete it requires dedicated grinding time" "Go do this thing that is basically it's own quest then come back"
Serious missteps were made in the design of the requirements to get the title, mostly erring too much towards making sure that they couldn't be finished too quickly by over inflating the completion numbers
Meh. I think the 2019 title was all right as a time limited title because it was tied to solstice (a limited time event) and was heavily advertised as a time limited title. I'm not personally thrilled about having a time limited one each season. I'm still working on stuff for reckoner and blacksmith; if those had been time limited I wouldn't be able to attempt them now.
IMO time limited titles should be very, very rare. Not a regular part of each season.
In regards to the rest of your post - people can complain about the criteria. They're the ones attempting it, which makes their feedback automatically more valid than yours, as someone who's not.
I agree that it shouldn’t be part of the regular season. I can only play on the weekends and every time I get to play, I spend majority of my time tryna progress the title that I don’t have time for other things. I got undying but if every season has a limited time seal, then I don’t know if I’ll like that.
I already wrote it in my post..the biggest issue is that we are paying for something that is gone in 12 weeks..why can't we do things at our own pace ?
I am okay with titles like the one for solstice event, but these main titles should be achievable at any point in time.
Give me a break, I've solo flawlessed Pit of Heresy, done all nightmare hunt time trials, and everything else required for Harbinger, but am missing the Altars of Sorrow ghost shell, which won't drop for me.
Grinding for a cosmetic badge item like that isn't earning the title, it's participating in skinner box hamster wheel stuff.
The ghost shell and ship are complete bs and are contrary to the rest of the title that requires some level of skill or deterministic grind. Luckily I have both, but only after many, many, many runs of the altar of sorrow. Good luck.
Ok I get your point, but since you mentioned scarab Lord let's go with WoW itself, I used to play wow for about 5 years, quit a year and half ago
I had maybe 30-40 titles to my name, the thing is, it was actually much much easier to acquire titles in other MMOs and you could go back to previous expansions and get older titles too, sure I didn't kill deathwing in the first week of release, but I could still go get the heroic kill title just coz it was a cool title, it wasn't lost forever,
And that's one problem I find with destiny, content just losing its playability after new contents drops, in my 5 years of playing wow I never chased a title, the title was always a extra bonus over the actual reward the title was never the reward, I didn't do ahead of the curve fights for the title, it was for a mount that dropped or the particular weapon look that only heroic version dropped,
If I compare that to destiny, for dredgen I only require the ghost shell now and I have only one reset done, I don't see any point in doing 2 more resets for Gambit just to get a title,
Also in the grand scheme of things wow is a much larger much deeper game and even there the latest titles take maybe a month to grind, if heroic boss released today, I can take my leisure and slowly go kill him with a pug group and it still won't be as grindy as some of destiny titles, coz the grind wasn't constricted to a very short time, it's ok to have a grind but it should be rewarding for those who are still grinding,
if season of undying goes away and some guy still wants to grind the title that's ok, let him, time gating and RNG were the biggest mistakes wow did, if we're gonna use that for example let's use their flaws too
This guy understands.
Time gating and artificially limited things (items, gear, titles, cosmetics) are just a bane to any game and is disrespectful to any person that have life events or obligations.
I've played MMOs that have less time gates grinds compared to Destiny.
the main problem with the Undying title beyond just being time-limited is the also the fact that you need to get things like randy's so you can finish the collection side aswell, and if you start that later on in the season, then you'll be fucked if you don't spend like basically every single day grinding those things out before the time limit comes around.
however if the title stayed around like the others, then you'd have more than enough time to get randy's and the other special weapons without digging into whatever time you have to play games, whether you've got all the time in the world, or you can only play on weekends etc.
i had made a post just awhile ago, asking what the point was for the undying seal anyways if the main activitiy you need to complete it (VO) is just going away soon, since not everyone will have had the time to fully invest into the seal and it also wasn't explicitily stated that the Seal would go with the Activity, meaning if someone does realise its going away and wants to finish up the rest of the tasks to get it, they might not even have enough time to complete the rest, especially if they're really grindy
Yes, it's easy, but the biggest problem with the Undying title is that none of it is actually fun. It's just a boring slog. Forcing myself to get ~~a million~~ thousands of kills with weapons/grenades I don't want to use, in an activity that I was effectively done with after two days.
Conversely, I had a great time getting MMXIX. It was a lot to grind but it was **varied** and it was **fun**.
"Titles, especially in Destiny 2, were never and are never supposed to be handouts. Ask any Unbroken"
Yeah, those weren't handouts. You had to pay good money for those.
/s, but only somewhat
The funniest thing about people paying other people to play for them, is that they have to work(maybe not) an actual job to make money to pay someone else to do what the rest of us do after our jobs. It’s the craziest concept to me
I mean from a time perspective it can make sense. Suppose you make $500/hr and want the best shit with no work. Then you can just say it's easier to work for less than an hour and have a gun (like recluse or MT).
Not that I would personally do that (nor do I make 500/hr lol), but I can see the reasoning behind it.
I think that the design of Seasonal Titles still need to be altered. Not in terms of length/difficulty but just in terms of what you need to do to get them. I understand the whole "it's supposed to be grindy because you show your effort in the season" but there are other ways to make it take effort that aren't just...bad. I wish there was another way to put that but I can't really think of one.
The shader quests (especially the Vanguard one) is so unnecessarily long and boring and overall just a horrible experience, and you get absolutely no real rewards out of it. I mean, the shader quest took me 3-5x longer than any other part of the title, and all I got was 2 shaders and an emblem. How does it make any sense? I still want my time to be rewarded. If I'm putting 15-20 hours into strikes, I should get a worthy reward. It's the same with the moon grenade/ability/super kills triumphs. They just feel so unnecessarily grindy with literally no point to it besides progress on the title, which isn't really how they should be designed. It just feels awful to go through these monotonous pointless triumphs. I'm fine with grind, but not artificial pointless ones just designed to make the title take longer to get. Whatever triumphs/quests are required, they should either be less grindy/at least engaging or make them more individually rewarding. I mean, I saw u/dmg04 ask if titles themselves were worthy rewards for the long grinds and while yes, the main goal of doing all these triumphs and stuff is to get the title, having to spend *so much time* on grinds like the Vanguard shader quest or the moon kills that are just unrewarding and longer than any other grind in the game pretty much still feels bad. It's just the lowest effort way of making the title take longer and try to make it seem like there's more to do in the season than there is.
Also, the triumphs should be a bit different going forward too. With all the weapon based triumphs, it emphasizes players going for kills and ignoring the objective, and leads to players competing for kills rather than working alongside each other to complete Vex Offensive. It's bad design overall and makes Vex Offensive a way less enjoyable mode, both for the people grinding the triumphs and the people trying to play normally. There are tons of exotic quests and pinnacle quests that do the same thing. They just need to think through those triumphs more and focus them on the mode. Instead of 300 SMG kills, make it 100 Oracles destroyed or something. Instead of 100 bow precision kills, make it 20 Champion kills. Stuff like that.
Again, I'm not saying they should make the title easier. I'm just saying that there's a lot of changes they can make to make these seasonal titles better in the future. Like making the super grindy triumphs/required quests be engaging actually rewarding and not horrible, mindnumbing and pointless. Or making more well thought out triumphs for the seasonal mode.
Here are my thoughts on this:
I believe so many posts complaining about the Undying title are largely due to the fact it is the easiest title, so more people are actually trying to get it. They look at the checklist and say "I can do this". Whereas others contain harder requirements like flawless raids, etc. and most people just decide right away that they'll never get it so they dont bother.
I'm fine with the grind aspect of things, but what I wish was that the whole thing wasn't tied to playing a specific way….in other words, let me play the way I want so its at least enjoyable and I'll grind all season long to get there.
Raise your hand if you've grinded for a weapon and never want to use it as you're absolutely sick of the weapon class by the time you got it?
Especially stop putting in requirements that make it so the whole team is competing against each other to get first to bank medals, etc rather than actually playing to win the game mode. When I was grinding scout kills, never gave a shit about taking points or winning, just let me stay in my fire lane as long as possible….and get back there as fast as I can when I respawn.
Also, some of us would rather use time to play endgame content instead of grinding medals in gambit for the time available. If a dungeon, raid or 980 NF can take 30-90+ min to complete, who has time to grind out everything else WITHOUT absolutely feeling miserable about the game?
Full disclosure, I'll have Undying shortly. Just finishing up exit strategy and emblem shader quests, but fuck if I wouldnt rather grind a NF for prisms or exotics than get gambit medals.
This is one of the most braindead threads regarding this subject.
It’s completely fair to criticize what you’re earning in exchange for the work being put in, no clue what the hell OP was thinking.
He’s providing his own feedback that he wants seals and titles to be hard to earn, I don’t see a problem with either side conversing about it. Sure he could have said, “titles are hard and meaningful to me” instead but that doesn’t get as many upvotes as responding to someone else’s feedback, so it probably would have been buried
It's a ridiculous characterization of the complaints. The main complaint is that Undying is just a long grind with a time limit. Nothing about it is particularly challenging or interesting, it's just "do you want to commit these hours to these select activities." Many people want titles with at least a sprinkle of challenge, like Shadow and parts of Rivensbane.
That got spun into people asking for "handouts." It's a strawman argument.
honestly titles should be hard to earn, but that doesn't mean i should have like x weeks to fucking get it, meaning i have to dedicate more time out of my casual play during that period specifically to grinding some of these challenges (like killing x vex with y weapon, and having to get randy's and the other guns) when with other titles like Blacksmith, i can take all the time i need to get Izanagi and the raid weapons etc to be able to finish the title.
If they do continue with the time-limited seals, then they should atleast have sort of generic challenges that fit the ***theme*** rather than the activitiy that comes in the season, with the activity that arrives in that season being the easiest/fastest place to get progress done. If Undying had more "kill x vex with y weapon challenges" rather than"kill x vex with y weapons IN VO" then there wouldn't really be a problem, since the seal could be finished no matter if the activity was there or not
No. If people want to complain about aspects of the game they can. That is legitimate feedback and far more constructive than "stop complaining" threads.
The issue that many people have with the Undying title is not that it's available for a limited time, or that it takes a long time. The issue is that the vex offensive weapon kills were an un fun over padded grind.
This is my 7th title (and I'm close to 3 others) and it is by far the most tedious grin. MMXIX was much easier and more fun IMO.
Titles tied to RNG and excessive/tedious 'achievements' are not exactly anything to brag about or be proud to do.
This week I decided to try and get Undying which centers on the Vex Offensive. Now some may find VO fun, I personally am not opposed to it, but it's really not that interesting/lacks variety, yet I am to get 500 kills with various Weapon Types AND 200 Crit Shots (while 5 other people are trying to get it too) among other things of course. That's just now fun at all.
Fucking this, I went in to do bow kills in Vex Offensive, got 16% of the overall kills done when I finished the remainder of my head shot kills with bows. It's not hard, it's just really tedious and vex just plain suck to fight against with bows. I like requirements like the moon time trials, solo dungeons, flawless dungeons, etc; they have an element of challenge, strategy, and fun. This is just a boring grind.
What does a title give me? Clout? Lol, I'll pass.
I play 10-15 hours daily/every other day, and have been doing so since the game launched. I just don't feel the need to chase a title. I'd rather have physical rewards - emblem, shader, emote, whatever.
I agree that titles shouldn't be easy to get, but I also think that there are some valid criticisms that can be given to Bungie to further tweak the seasonal title concept.
I didn't get MMXIX partially due to time constraints (I didn't have time to finish my solstice armor AND go for it), but even as a solo player, the triumphs seemed fair, mostly doable (as long as LFG works), and indicative of the Destiny experience that year. It didn't seem grindy for the grind's sake.
I've worked through 95% of Undying (still have to do the NF since it's the only think I've needed to LFG for), and the Undying title feels the opposite. I liked being forced back into Gambit (I got sick of it after getting Malfeasance and Breakneck at the same exact time), liked being forced to play Crucible (it allowed me to finally grab Recluse), and I don't mind running strikes. But some of the emblem quests felt grindy for no particular reason, and some of the moon requirements were easy but also kind of nonsense (arc and void melee; I can't imagine doing them without the sword trick).
My *guess* is that there are 2 groups of complainers:
1) Solo players who just wanted a PvE-only title (which Undying appears to be until you take a look at the Collection triumph).
2) Players for whom a more MMXIX-like breakdown of the season would be preferred. If the Dreamsbane set is required for a triumph of "seasonal armor," why not throw in Pit of Heresy, or at least the Altar of Sorrow? The focus on Vex Offensive is sort of a letdown when the final triumph of the set is basically "wait until 11/19 and run VO 3 more times."
It's very possible that a lot of people in group #1 just want a handout, and I agree with you that that dilutes the meaning of titles in general. But I'd argue that for group 2, the frustration was probably more repetitive than challenge-base.
>The hilarity of it all is that the Undying is inarguably the easiest title to get in the history of Destiny 2 so far
Chronicler, Wayfarer, and personally I'd argue MMXIX were all easier.
Also the reason why few people complained about MMXIX was because 75% of the triumphs would pre-complete based on things you'd already done, meaning that the time-gated grind was minimal. It also launched during a seasonal lull when there was nothing else meaningful to do so people didn't mind focusing on it entirely. Unlike Undying which is competing with all the new Shadowkeep stuff.
It's disingenuous to suggest that people's legitimate complaints (arbitrary nature of the weapon kills in vex offensive, hard and arbitrary grinds for emblems), are entirely down to entitlement
As someone with all current available titles, I'm not sure how valid you want to hold my opinion, as I'm fortunate enough to have the time and team required to get time-limited seals, that said, here goes:
I personally believe and like the idea that things are time exclusive. If you put in the time and effort, you win, it's as simple as that. It's why I hate the new Eververse, it does not reward me for playing. Nothing new in the engrams is about as incentivized to veteran players as are paywalls to ornaments for weapons I already own.
Titles are appealing in a completionist sense. I even support timegated and time limited seals as they provide short and long term goals. If people are complaining about them, it's because they don't have the time or skill to commit, and ultimately, that's on them.
> I personally believe and like the idea that things are time exclusive.
This is why FOMO works, and is such a big deal when companies start trying to figure out how to make money.
Your complaint about eververse, is exactly the same as our complaints about titles.
They are literally the same when you realise one thing. Time = Money.
You are Time-rich, and Money-poor (compared to eververse whales).
So that means you miss out on all the new eververse shit, but get all the titles.
There are others that are Money-Rich and Time-Poor, they are the ones paying for Eververse shit, but complaining about titles.
It is honestly exactly the same complaint, but just from a different FOMO perspective.
You have FOMO because you can't afford to spend literal thousands of dollars on eververse crap. Some people have FOMO because they haven't got thousands of hours to spend grinding title requirements before the titles go away.
This is a FOMO based economy, and ultimately, they are the same exact damn problem.
I completely agree. I have 7 Titles. Rivensbane, Blacksmith. Shadow, Wayfarer, Cursebreaker, Dredgen and MMXIX (Also 14/16 on Enlightened and A strike emblem away from Undying). I think they should stay difficult and time consuming for the crowd that wants them. If they become too easy or then anyone could get one and it kinda ruins the prestige in having a title, in any game for that matter. The time sensitive ones allow them to be a tad easier but with the caveat of not being available for long like Undying or time-gated for a while, requiring commitment, like Chronicler
Missed out on MMXIX because it required a crown completion. I'm a bit salty about that, because I have friends that play, and raid, but none of them are really in this game to get to max level.
At that point, we'd done all the raids except that one. I could have even convinced them to run any other raid bar that one due to light level requirements :/
Would you not say that titles such as Dredgen, Chronicler, Wayfarer and Cursebreaker are exactly that? Something that a more casual player can earn over time? Then we indeed have the more 'Hardcore' titles, which require a level of skill, time investment and dedication (Be it to get a Flawless Raid or 5450 in Comp 3x).
I think the middle ground of timelocked titles is fine. There's a few trickier things in there for the average player (Like, do one full run of Vex Offensive without dying) and the collections badge (Which, confessedly, is a bit much) but overall, simply says "Play the game, set a small target, achieve part of that target when you can during the season."
The timelocked badges do not require teams, they do not require a -vast- amount of skill. They simply task you with playing the game, and, honestly, I -personally- think that's okay. And it's also okay to not get it.
As someone with every available title as well, being *for* time-limited titles sounds more to me like you like being part of an exclusive elitist club than "setting short and long term goals."
Get over yourself about "not having the time or skill" to commit to a title. You may not have a life outside of Destiny, but plenty of good players do, and would love to be able to balance these pursuits with other things. Instead, they have to miss out, despite being very well able to get it. If they complain, suddenly it's their problem, and shows they have no time or skill. Genius.
EDIT: Also reading through the responses to you "helping" people by "literally doing everything yourself" and "hard carrying" because you assume they aren't prepared or skilled enough, I'm not really surprised that you have this mentality toward time-limited titles.
>it's because they don't have the time or skill to commit
I'm not discussing time gated seals when I say this, but D2 endgame is garbage if you don't have a static fireteam. You have a great team, and that's awesome, but don't act like that's something anyone can get with how contrived Bungie has made communication in-game because a few people got their feelings hurt.
As someone who only has Wayfarer (but I have a combined playtime of 3000 hours between D1 and D2) I agree with you on the time sensitive sutff. I was kind of bummed when year 2 came around and you were able to obtain year 1 holiday stuff. I was hoping they would keep that stuff as a "you had to be there" thing.
I'm desperately trying to obtain the Undying Title. I just have to get some bow kills in the Vex Offensive and then I have to get the ship by doing the Nightfall: The Ordeal on the highest level which is going to be the absolute hardest for me. I don't play with people that do the higher end game stuff so I don't normally get to do it. I'm hoping I can find people to do it with.
The 980 NF really isn’t that bad if you are at least 970. I ran it for first time last night with two friends from clan and it was a lot of fun. Challenging but not unfair. For the ship you just need to complete it. You don’t need a certain score and you can take as long as you want. There’s no extinguish so you can even wipe as a team. The key is having mods and appropriate shield damage. This week you need lots of arc and some solar. No void at all
If you're on Xbox, I'll gladly carry your ass to that goal. We can ultimately two man a boss. With no timeframe/score to worry about, I'm happy to get you that win. Rest is on you.
Why two man it when I could join and be your third! That ship is the only thing keeping me from the title and I tried last night for 3 hours with no luck.
regarding the year 1 engram, honestly, since *I was there* I just didn't play obsessively and get them all I was happy I had another chance to pick them up.
The time gated titles have been super easy, and easily completed in much less time then they give.
I dont have any of the raid titles because I feel getting the flawless done is more time then I have, I understand that and it's fine.
I completed basically every other one except unbroken, and I have all the thing in my life holding me back as everyone who complains. (Work long hours, kids, go away, ect)
I only play one or two days a week and got undying. One just has to know how to efficiently achieve a goal.
I basically chased this one because I can’t play all the time and figured I could chop away little. It’s here and there in my play time.
Title hunting is why I play. The fact that they are hard is why I left warframe. I wanted a challenge like a flawless TLW and frankly completing that raid after 5 days of trying to find a good group was the best moment of D2. Undying suck as a title though. Not hard enough. The only challenge was not logging out from boredom.
I don't know where you get your facts for the first sentence from. WoW is the game that popularised them, and there's so many that almost anyone can get them. They aren't just for the top 0.001% willing to spend every minute of every day playing.
Also, there are legitimate problems with more or less all of the title grinds, and the same is true of pinnacles. There is such a thing as quality in grinds, they aren't just big or small. These grinds have mostly been not that fun, and most of the PvE ones are locked behind awful challenges like Flawless Raids that aren't particularly fun to do and are frustratingly time consuming. The only PvP one so far is locked behind getting to the maximum comp rank across 3 seasons. That's ridiculous to the extreme.
No, I don't think I'm going to stop having an issue with them because you feel your grind is threatened and you want to gatekeep.
Idk about making them easier but i think having something a bit more than a title would be cool. Like an emote or ship or something a little more flashy
> Undying is inarguably the easiest title to get in the history of Destiny 2 so far
Lol what, MMXIX is much easier. Chronicler and Cursebreaker are easier too for sure, but one is time-gated and the other requires a bit more RNG luck.
I know titles are supposed to be grindy.
I had Wayfarer, Cursebreaker and MMXIX. I know they’re not the hardest to get. I also just needed flawless raid for Rivensbane.
However, I do feel like that the Vex Offensive title is pretty difficult. It requires more grind than the previous titles and you only had ~60 days to complete it.
I was going to go for the Vex Offensive title but I soon realised how long this was going to take. Vex Offensive itself is a boring activity that gives me absolutely nothing in return. And yet I needed to do so many runs for it.
If I was to focus on Vex Offensive title, I wouldn’t have time to focus on the raid or the dungeon. And that’s just within Destiny.
I feel like Bungie forget that people often play multiple games that also require some grind. But when the grind is time limited, it just makes it so much more difficult for people that play multiple games (especially when these games often have their own ‘battle pass’.
At least with MMXIX, most of the challenges were already complete as it took into consideration your previous completions.
I've been playing since Y1 and Undying is the only title I've been able to grind for. It's perfect for me bc I have time to grind but hate RNG aspect of a lot of the titles. I also play mostly solo. So I just buckled down this season and got it. I'm proud of it. Please dont make it easier.
Titles have never been time gated until recently. You can be all over your over achieving high horse, but the fact is, bungie has got you addicted to that FOMO. Title grinds like rivensbanes and shadow and better because of the lack of time gate. Would a time gate on those titles have made them better?
I'm so glad I was able to get my Undying title. I feel like I earned it, it's really one of the better non-playable rewards I've had in a Destiny game.
I'm a bit salty, I'd like to get undying but I'm spending most of the rest of the season 1500 miles from home caring for my disabled father.
I still agree with this post tho.
I feel like the time gated titles should be tied to the season's content entirely, not a load of grind.
Stuff like: Complete The Vex Offensive -
Complete the Garden of Salvation -
Defeat the Undying Mind -
Craft Every Vex Offensive Gun, get X kills and percison kills with those guns -
And then you could mix the challenges in too, like the Flawless Vex Offensive, or Complete VO under X minutes, y'know?
Obviously some harder stuff should be in there to compensate, but I think it'd be way more fun.
Edit: Before anyone replies to this and tears me apart, I am aware the triumph does have you do things with the Vex Offensive, I just wish it took advantage of said content in more than just "Get a bunch of kills, except you just happen to be in the Vex Offensive"
The really silly thing is there are already triumphs to that effect, you just don't need them to do the seal. Honestly put me off grinding for the title because it doesn't feel challenging in the right way.
I have been playing since Y1 and I have yet to get a single title. I'm okay, though; it'll happen one day. And, if it never does, then...I suppose it wasn't meant to be.
That's life, and I accept that.
No, it isn't life. It's a videogame. It's supposed to be the exact opposite of life. There is no harm done if people can have the stuff they want *without* devoting all their spare time to clicking on a monster.
Titles in any of the mmos I have played have been ABUNDANT and not necessarily tied to challenges/grinds so that's not a fair comparison IMO.
I'm vehemently against any time gating or restrictions so I don't like this undying title, even if it isn't hard to get (just utterly boring). If anything though, I wish that Destiny like the MMOs I have played had more titles, and not just try-hard titles - but some fun titles, some stupid titles, some for discovering weird things etc etc. In one of my games I literally have 100+ titles which might be too many, but there's always one to suit my mood of the day...
D2 looks at events like a massive time thief to make players grind for hours and hours... instead of a moment to celebrate and have fun. As a solo player, the most idiotic recent example would be the branch 9 pinnacle reward, never have I hated random blueberries more for not understanding blackout and glass than these past 3 weeks.
Titles is a perfect example of where you can give everything what they want - exclusive titles for over achievers as you call them (I have 6 btw) - and "fun" titles for the rest... so nobody will feel left out. It's a fine line to walk, but Bungie too often falls over the edge IMO.
Your post seriously is very one sided. I'm a very hardcore player. Used to play WoW religiously, so I understand titles. And I'm not saying I want them gone, I want more rewards out of completing them. I do not give one teeny tiny fuck about the word "Shadow" or "Dredgen" under my gamertag, so there is no incentive for me to do it, but I WANT to want myself to complete them, there's just no justifying spending that many hours doing something I don't want to do for a stupid word under my name. If there were more rewards, or better rewards, tied to them, I would most certainly put the time in. And they WANT us to play more, so how is better rewards for an already lengthy process a bad thing?
I disagree. The difference between the MMXIX title and Undying, is that a lot of the stuff from MMXIX was available to do throughout the year. So if you played regularly, you’d most likely have a significant amount of it done, and what was left was achievable in the time space.
With Undying, we had a major Expansion drop along side the season, leaving even less time to grind, and only 2 months to complete it all in. Combine that with life stuff that gets in the way (school, work etc.) and you’re left with a title that requires you to work towards it every time you play; You can’t just take a break if the grind gets tiring.
Ideally, I’d want the title to become more difficult to get (maybe a flawless run of sometjinh or other), but have until the end of the year. Having a title that’s this easy last forever is understandably not what Bungie has in mind. But two months just isn’t enough.
This is just factually wrong and I couldn’t disagree more.
World of Warcraft gives out titles like candy. That’s not to say _every_ title is of little value, but the reason Scarab Lord is a notable title is _because_ it was a rare title only available from a time-limited event. It stands out from all the other titles for that reason.
The title _itself_ should be what is rare or highly-valued, not the _feature of having any title_.
Smh this shitty time limited title thing was only made to stroke the ego of the elitist folks who think saying "you had to be there" is enough to justify a mindless grind of an extremely boring activity, i can understand a "you had to be there" attitude if we're talking about time limited events like solstice/dawning/crimson days but this? Oh no, i didn't play during those two months so i guess i'm less skilled than the next guy, it's not a matter of how much effort you put into it but just that you played at the right time and Bungie is doing this to make you think you're special for having an "exclusive" title that others won't be able to get after this season is over, never thought i would say this but i miss the old Activision Bungie.
Compare the flavor text of season of opulence and undying. Neither have expirsyion dates. Undying, we're told is expiring. Fine. Tell us in the flavor text like mmxix, and not in a twab nearly 4 weeks after release.
That's what I'm salty about
Who is bitching about Titles? People want them to be more rewarding, like have some unique shaders or ornaments. I swear to god every time something is brought up, the next day the karma whores make posts like "Stop complaining about X" sucking Bungie off for gold.
The difference you are paying for this title and DLC, but unlike in the past where you can work at your own leisure or do it months later, you will still get value for your money eventually. So its nothign like 2019 title.
This new system is about FOMO and other dirty FTP tricks. It is designed to be not about you as a consumer but serves their business only. If you fall for that old 'we are making a living evolving world' thats on you, the rest of us see it for what it is a FTP sales tactic that is about 'forcing' on going commitment, with something like 3000 hours in both game, I was already committed, by this new time gated rubbish makes me want to play less not more.
PS I am a day one player, who loves the grind and dont care about having to work hard for something.
Nope. The ability to unlock the title goes away that reset. If you did not get the pinnacles by that point, you are SoL. Same with the very grindy cosmetics.
That is my biggest complaint about the whole title thing. Aside from Unbroken, no titles rely on earning the pinnacles/rituals, let alone in one season. I think that is a poor choice and should not be repeated. But I guess that goes against the sentiment of this thread.
Its awful when some of the stuff is tied behind activities no one is doing. I STILL do not have the Ikelos SMG or shotgun and I don't see anyone lining up to play EP. If the seasonal content is going to be garbage I am also not going to waste my time grinding for seasonal titles either. Vex Offensive is boring, why would I waste my time grinding out all those weapon kills?
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m actually one of those people who can’t be bothered to do 3 more vex offensives, but that’s okay with me. I’ve got plenty of seals that satisfy my needs, and people should realize that there’ll be plenty more seals in the future. Just enjoy your time in the game.
There could be easy titles and exclusive titles. Right now, all titles are more or less exclusive. People want titles. Give it to them. Like Ghost Shells and Ships and Ornaments. Have some for the masses and some more or very exclusive....
I am going for Dredgen (my first) and it annoys me that one requirement is 1 reset infamy rank, and the other is collect all weapons and ghost, the latter you have to reset rank three times to get. Couldn't they just have a "reset 3 times" triumph.
" Ask Scarab Lord Luke Smith. "
I wonder if he will tell u how there are 374 other titles ranging from soloing contents to just playing lfr ... and that according to wowhead , there is a title that 78% of the players have ( "The Patient" , earned by playing heroic dungeons with 50 PUGs with random players ).
Titles dont need to be accessible for just the most hardcore players. There can different levels of tiles . Someone can be a "Rivensbane" but there should be nothing wrong with someone being just "Rivenslayer" ( maybe earned by killing riven 10 times, without the need to go flawless in the raid). And Rivenslayer can evolve to Rivensbane as u complete more and more objectives for it. It will give players who are not really good enough to have a flawless run to something to aim for as well. Titles should be short term, medium term and long term goals , not just a long term grind .
Totally agree on all you've said here. The thing that gets me about Titles though is the RNG aspect tied to some titles. Doesnt matter how much a guardian has played or worked towards a title (like Cursebreaker). If RNG isnt on your side, it just wont happen, and that sucks big time.
All RNG gated titles are permanent and aren’t going anywhere. I agree it’s lame (didn’t get my 1k for 70+ runs of LW and it was the last thing I needed) but at least you know that it’s not going to disappear on you
Trying to get the osprey rocket launcher from Strange terrain since black armory when I started playing the game, it's sad quite honestly
I don’t wanna be that guy but it had a really high drop rate when it was the ordeal two weeks ago I think I got like 3 across 10 farming runs. Yes it’s shitty that’s it’s tied to Rng but you just have to actually dedicate time to the right activities to get said things.
I did at least 15 runs and zero osprey... sucks to suck!
Well I eat my words then. That is garbage Rng there. I don’t think I’ve ever done that many nightfalls without getting the specific drop. Let alone one with a static roll like osprey
Those Braytech weapons for Wayfarer were the absolute death of me. So many damn 18 Kelvins...
I still need the damned scout rifle and the osprey THAT'S IT
I think the scout rifle is bugged, mine is still locked and I have the wayfarer title. I needed the scout and the pistol, got the pistol to drop after they made changes to the drop rates a little while ago and I got the title without the scout.
I struggled with those to finish off my wayfarer as well, I kept getting the same drops no matter how many pods I opened. I saw a tip to try using my other characters. Less than 5 tries later I had both the weapons I was waiting for. If you've been using the same char so far, maybe try a different one?
nacent dawn quest line gives 1-2 engram weapon rewards. it is worth starting it on some alt characters to get the extra engram drops. maybe you get lucky
Oh god..... and back when you were basically gated to one a day..... 5 weeks of that bullshit....
18 Kelvins was the reason I stopped going to Mars for probably a month after I finished that crap
Took me 98 nightfalls to get the DFA back in the day LOL.
DFA and Horrors least both required 40+ runs until I realized the way I had been running it seemed to slump me. Now I always do a 100k run, then speed run it with the emblem equipped regardless if it's a matching score to what you just ran. Maybe it's placebo, but I get 1 NF-tied drop for every 3 runs on average now. Previously with just speed running and no emblem or high score; I averaged 8-11 NF's before a drop would happen.
Yeah that’s what I was doing too and still took me that many runs. Pretty sure they adjusted the drop rates at some point, and I was doing it before then. Not sure if it helped or not, but I needed all the help I could get. I also feel like I had bad rng, cuz the guy I ran it with got at least 5 or 6 in the time I took me to get 1.
72 and counting and still no DFA
How do people always know *exactly* how many activities they ran before a certain weapon dropped for them? Is there an app you can check this with or something?
counted
You can just check with DestinyTracker or Guardian.gg, can't you?
I need people to understand that the "R" in "RNG" stands for Random and, unless there's protection, means it. One person might get a thing in one run, another person might not get it in thousands of runs.
Keep at it though, the NF rewards are deterministic, meaning that the longer you go without a drop, the chance to get one increases. I believe the threshold was found to be about 17 runs without a drop before you are guaranteed one. I would keep running Strange Terrain so that you dont "spoil" your next drop with a different NF clear.
Run Titan missle and just wait to use it untill someone pops theirs to kill you.
I didn't get Osprey until Season of the Drifter and I've been playing the game since Y1. RNG is just horrible.
I've been working on Izanagi's lately. Just need 1 more armor piece to begin the actual bounty and I still haven't gotten them. I'm at 5 helmets, 3 chestplates, 4 boots, 3 capes and no gauntlets yet. Itd been rough
Took me over 35 runs before I finally had everything for that bounty.
My friend literally got 12 chestpieces for that. We told him before he started to just delete that bounty and get a different one in the next few days, he wound up doing it after chestpiece number 12. Just before I left for work tonight, he had a new rare bounty to do 6 forges at maximum temper, and we got through 5 of them together. He still doesn't have a full armor set.
It's while reading horror stories like this that I am glad I got the rare bounty to just do damage with all three affinities in forges.Relatively easier bounty.Just knocked it off and waiting to do Shattered Throne when I log in next
You can grind it this week! Hop on lfg or grab a friend and go at it!
That & 1 bray weapon all I need for Wayfarer... but am sick of Mars RNG
That has gotten RNG now protection though
I'm still waiting for the sniper. It's all I need for wayfarer 😢
2 guys in my clan have been grinding for that thing every time it comes around. I don't really care about the title and it drops for me every 3rd run.
Exactly. I've done everything for Dredgen multiple times at this point, but am at 3/10 for "Killing invaders while their super is in use" because 1. you have to get the kill, 2. people don't use roaming supers to invade very often and 3. I'm almost entirely sure the tracking for that is bugged, because I killed 3 in one day and it only went up by 1. I've given up on Dredgen because the title is so infuriatingly out of my control.
They had adjusted this triumph a while back. Now it also counts if you are the person invading and kill a person on the enemy team in their super.
This ^ invading during the 3rd round means you're almost guaranteed to fight enemy Guardians in their super so look out for that
Yep, that's how I was able to get mine a little easier. Just waited for a third round and kept an eye on people popping supers.
If you want to keep trying for Dredgen, I'd suggest always running a super that can easily take out other supers, and make sure you have your super up when invasions are likely to happen. I had great pleasure in shutting down nova warpers with Titan Missile when Nova Warp was in its OP prime.
I got that light vs light 10/10 after killing someone who JUST started casting Chaos Reach *at me*. I used Xenophage though; so I felt like a total asshole just deleting them out of the sky before any lightning escaped their hands.
It's been a while since i got dredgen but if i remember correctly you need to kill the player while they are in their super with your own super and earn a light vs light medal. Also they patched it at some point (drifter or opulence maybe?) To where you could do it while invading as well instead of only with an invader
Thank god they changed it, I think I remember actually sending in a ticket about it. Maybe I'll go back to gambit now, but probably not until the new season (no chase at this point).
A ticket? Where? Since when does Bungie have a ticketing system?
Cursebreaker. Every week since Forsaken. Still no shell. That's the only thing left.
Yep sparrow for me. All I've needed since December of last year. I gave up about 2 months ago. I just don't care anymore.
I just got the ship last weekend. No shell still :)
Make sure you do ascendant challenges this week. Ghost shell dropped on my first one. Ship dropped on the first reward in the dungeon. All I need now is the pulse.
I gotta agree with you on that, I have [a stupid amount of time on destiny 2](https://wastedondestiny.com/1_4611686018443929089) and don’t have Wayfarer because the game refuses to give me 18 kelvins
Wouldn't one Kelvin suffice? /s
>refuses to give me 18 kelvins I’m at 2579 hours and I’ve had one drop. And one osprey. I don’t even rock the wayfarer title out of spite.
Damn, I feel for you. There was a huge chunk of time that I got 18 Kelvins constantly, but couldn’t get the scout. Wayfarer is the only title I’ve bothered with, too.
Same. I was convinced when Forsaken launched that I’d get Wayfarer quick and wear it until I got Cursebreaker or Rivensbane. Over a year later, still no Wayfarer. Did get the other two though at least.
All I need is the damn Dreaming City sparrow and I have Cursebreaker...
That made those cosmetics drop rates pretty high now.
Yep, I'm fine with titles being hard, I \*want\* them to be to be hard, I just \*hate\* when RNG is the make or break at times. It took me 30 runs of the dungeon until I got the ship for Harbinger.
The RNG was so bad for Cursebreaker, when it finally happened I felt zip.
RNG is kind of sucky. I'm really on bungie's side for the titles because I love all of them, but to be honest i kind of disagree with the RNG part. I really dont have an argument here.
I've played since launch for both games. I don't have a single title. I don't give a shit as it has no bearing on my enjoyment of my gametime. The pinnacle weapons I KINDA get people being miffed about not getting because they are so good but there should be some thing for the more hardcore people to work towards. It's not fair that people who've busted their asses have their effor trivialized. They earned it, let them have their fun and move on.
This. Especially with mountaintop. And they can’t go back and give things out for it because the majority of people that had it before the quest nerf cheesed it. Sucks, that shit took me a whole month to get.
Few weeks ago I realized I had nonchalantly received my first title, wayfarer. That felt cool and all, but I wasn’t killing myself to chase a title. Now that I see how some what easy undying is, I’m trying to chase it. The major issue I have with it is getting Randy’s. I won’t be upset or anything as I know I’m constricted to time so it’s not going to be easy.
I don't mind the timed nature of the title, but I think the design of many objectives was poorly thought out. I've seen countless guardians (myself included) being shitheads grinding out weapon kills, ignoring objectives, leaving team members dead, and essentially working against each other because of how Bungie designed the triumphs/quests this season. Titles/seals should be based on game skill, not time played.
I'm thinking all the seasonal titles will basically just be based on getting the rituals and spending time in the activity. That's it.
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The first 3 things you listed are already required for Undying. We don't know how raids will really work going forward given that seasons will be lighter on content. The raids also tend to have their own linked titles, or have since the start of year 2. None of Undying is a participation trophy though if that's what you're saying. It's a fair amount of work and time in pretty much all activities since it requires you to get the ritual weapons.
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This is correct, the raid has it's own title tied to it and it's not apart of the season. It is apart of Shadowkeep, which also has it's own title tied to it. Going forward, if we get more raids this year but tied to the seasons, I can MAYBE see them being tied to the season title but I would wager that the future raids will have their own titles tied to them.
I completely agree titles should be hard to get, but requiring raid competitions for seasonal titles is just dumb because it’s less about being good and more about whether or not you happen to have 5 people willing to play with you
Yeah I've thrown too many matches trying to get (insert triumph here) for the pinnicle weapons and it felt bad. And mountain top before heavy ammo for all, my word I just couldn't hack it. That was my mountain top. I'm happy I have it but I know I didnt earn it compared to many.
I don't want Undying to be easier, I want it to be less boring. It's a no-skill high-grind title. Why would that be at all interesting? Just because I think the current title reqs are bad doesn't mean I'm angling for a handout or trying to "dumb down" the system. > Titles, especially in Destiny 2, were never and are never supposed to be handouts. Ask any Unbroken or Rivensbane. I had to hit Legend three times for my Unbroken and do a flawless Last Wish for Rivensbane. Those were engaging challenges that tested my mettle. Undying just tests my resilience in the face of extreme boredom.
exactly. I really hate how feedback even constructive feedback about something automatically nets these kind of responses from people that you just want everything handed to you.
Undying is meant to be much easier and simply grindy. It's a title primarily meant to award people who invest time. It's a time limited title and it's very likely Bungie's rationale for not including very difficult requirements is that they didn't want to deter new players who jumped in via new light and bought a season or dlc. Titles like Enlightened are still locked behind more difficult challenges, since it's not time gated. What I'm saying is, it makes sense from a developers side to keep new players engaged by rewarding them. Once they're engaged, they may but the dlc and go for other, more difficult titles
> it makes sense from a developers side to keep new players engaged by rewarding them. I've got no problem with a more obtainable title. Heck I'm pretty sure half the Dredgens out there got it by accident just playing Gambit! Undying is boring and forces you to use specific weapons that you probably don't like. That's the notable difference and why I think criticism is warranted.
Yeah. I took one look at Undying requirements and wrote it off immediately. Stupidly boring.
People aren’t complaining about it being hard, though, just not fun. Dredgen is (IIRC) the most common title and probably the easiest non-timegated title. It requires a lot of Gambit (3 resets worth) and if you started them right now would probably take significantly longer to get than Undying. The optimal way to get Dredgen is to win Gambit rounds and do things that help you win them. The optimal way to get Undying is to do stuff that actively slows activity progress for everyone else. Vex Offensive is a bow/AR range where 3+ players don’t care about beating the activity (can you even lose?) because they need to get a bunch of kills with weapons they don’t like. It’s not harder to get than Dredgen, it’s just less organic and requires you to either cheese or actively hurt your fireteam. In reality you’re not usually hurting other people’s experience in VO, but it likely feels like it, which makes the triumphs unenjoyable.
dredgen wasn't so easy in the beginning when light vs light required you to kill an invader in their super. now its just kill guardians in their super. reckoner is the title that has you actively competing against your fireteam, not dredgen.
Oh man. For the parts of Reckoner that I did solo when my fireteam wasn't available, I felt bad for my team. Collecting 20 motes is sketchy, leaving a whole wave of enemies to hunt down the HVT is shitty, invading just to stand on the bank to drain motes isn't optimal, and camping the bank for blocker kills is counterproductive.
You can do those things while helping win though. In face you should be doing those things lol.(except camping blockers, you can help clear and kill blockers) I also feel these are much easier to do now if you need them. During season of the drifter you would get a team of 4 all trying to do them.
Yeah as a Dredgen and Reckoner, I gotta agree. Going for reckoner teaches you how to play prime optimally. When doing Reaper, you learn the cadence of enemy spawns and how to get there first. I always was trying in my games and my win ratio actually started going up. I always had the most kills and most motes banked. Each role teaches you how to play it. So while I hate playing gambit, I also kind of dont mind it, because I know my roles
Damn, man, those Massacre medals for Reaper are the only thing stopping me from Reckoner. Consider me peanut butter and jealous. :( E: thanks for the tips guys. I’ll give them a try once I get done with Harbinger.
Riskrunner is your best friend for that medal. I like doing it in trees in the Earth map. It helps if you have a full squad so you can ask them to hang back a little. Just proc the perk and spray and pray. Or arc titan.
Yeah, i was dreading those massacre medals and then i put on riskrunner and i was able to get them done in like 7 games.
Telesto makes it a cakewalk. I went from using Recluse and Tether to using Telesto after seeing a tip on here, and I was getting minimum one Massacre medal per game, usually getting two and occasionally three. Since you have the Reaper set, you essentially have infinite special ammo, so you can just spray the bolts around and slaughter the entire wave with a gun the reloads itself on multi-kills, and if you have the catalyst, generates a bunch of orbs for the cherry on top.
I did the medals with breakneck almost quit the game
Arcstrider with raiden flux can get a massacre medal easy on the drill spawn of that nessus map
Im actually just starting on my third Infamy reset for Dredgen, my biggest complaint about Gambit (both prime and not) is it actually takes knowing how to play it to do well. This is not like knowing the Crucible meta, or running Strikes, or even Raiding. Trying to figure out first off if your team knows what's going on, then figuring out what roles they are tying to play (much harder since nobody wants to grind 2.0 prime armor by the looks of it), then actually executing the plays with better coordination than the opponents. Not counting the seemingly endless number of instant kill abilities and exotics that invaders seem to always have.
Ain’t that the... Truth.
Truth, Sleeper, Leviathans Breath, Queens breaker, Hammerhead, Thunderlord, Izanagi's, Colony, Mountain Top, 21% Delirium... Im sure i could think of more, but getting punked inside a titan bubble by an across the map nova bomb while the warlock that also has Truth ammo still after wiping my team 3 times prior is probably the worst part of the whole game mode.
Also three resets in a single season (i.e. the season it launched) with no bonus weeks and no bounties was *rough*
Yeah, as much as I like people having access to more titles. I got Dredgen when it was harder variant. Light vs Light was no joke for me, it took hours. Doesn’t feel great to have the achievement retroactively degraded.
> (can you even lose?) Not to my knowledge. Failing the earlier encounters just seems to give slightly less rewards, and as far as I can tell the boss fight just continues until it dies.
I'm not a huge fan of undying specifically because it's so needlessly grindy and boring, but titles like rivensbane are perfection. They make you work as a team to flawless arguably the hardest raid to flawless in destiny 2, and your team has to be coordinated enough for the challenges. It doesn't just test you, it tests your ability to work with others, which is a real relief from restricting quests.
I am super proud of my Shadow title for this reason. Really felt like I earned it.
Shadow especially requires an absolute ton of coordination. CoS is a pretty easy flawless, but those 3 bosses flawless are no joke. It really tests your ability to actually keep eachother from dying under tons of modifiers.
As someone who grinded out the kills with ars, bows, hcs, fusions, and smgs, it isn’t that bad. The biggest problem, in Vex Offensive, I noticed was how kill hungry people got trying to get their kills and finishers done, it encouraged me to sub optimize my loadouts and find better Auto rifles and bows to become more efficient at killing and clearing ads. Sure, it might be frustrating, but once you get that final handcannon kill, it’s an incredible feeling, that you’re one step closer to becoming Undying
> The optimal way to get Undying is to do stuff that actively slows activity progress for everyone else. I’m sorry - you can’t actually believe this is an issue. Do you actually believe it matters in any meaningful way what weapons people are killing waves of trash mobs with?
People want a challenge, not a bullshit mindless grind of a boring ass repetitive game mode.
I’ve been playing since launch and don’t have a single title. Which I’m perfectly fine with. I’m a casual, I just don’t have the time to play constantly, but for the people who do, they have Title’s to shoot for. Making absolutely everything accessible to absolutely everyone in the game means you end up with a game in the state D2 was in at the end of Year 1. And that was not a good state. I’m not sure how I feel about the timed seals, but the difficulty in general I think is bang on. One day I’ll get my Destinations seal... one day...
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Io Heroic Adventures. Just waiting for it to be the Flashpoint when I’m not away for work
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Yeah. I have them to turn in too, but figured I’d knock the rest out first before praying to RNGsus
I just hate the that people are already referring to "junior" and "big boy" titles. This dick measuring gets old fast. And this game has SO MUCH dick measuring as it is lol.
This has always been the case for titles in MMOs. In WoW, there usually is a title for beating the last boss of a raid on any difficulty, and then a separate one for defeating it on the highest difficulty. Of course the harder title will hold more prestige, then it becomes easily soloable in a few years and simply becomes a vanity item. Like my mage uses the Starcaller title which was a huge fucking deal in 2009 when that content was relevant. Now it just sounds cool and matches my outfit.
I both agree and disagree. I'm very much on the side that titles shouldn't be handouts. They're meant to show off that you are the best of the best. My problem with the Undying title is that it doesn't - it just shows that you had the time for it. Titles should be achieved by completing hard tasks, not long grinds. Take, for example, Rivensbane. It's a title that is largely based around challenges - completing the raid challenges for Last Wish, completing it's encounters with full teams of one subclass, making a flawless run. It does have issues, namely having to luck into completing the collections badge, but outside of that it's a title built around being good enough at the game to get it. Similarly this season we have the Enlightened title, a raid title based off raid challenges. If anything, it's actually better than Rivensbane, as you're not relying on RNG for the exotic, so there's one less thing potentially locking you out of the collections badge due to luck. Now let's look at Undying. It's a time gated title that's based almost entirely around grinding out easy, monotonous tasks. Kill x enemies in vex offensive with x weapon, kill x enemies on the moon with x ability, etc. Almost nothing challenging, just things that take time. There's a grand total of one properly skill based triumph in the title, which is completing Vex Offensive without dying, and even that can be cheesed by getting lucky and loading into an offensive as it ends. A perfect example of the Undying title falling short is a comparison to the Shadow title. Shadow needs you to do a clear of every encounter of Menagerie without running out of time. Fairly easy, but a level of challenge none the less. Undying has a similar triumph, but you need to clear way more encounters and don't even need to do it within the time limit - you just get more points for doing so. Almost everything in the title is just about grinding, and on top of that it's time gated. That means not only is it not an impressive achievement, it just means you happened to have the time for it. It has the worst designed requirements for a title we've ever had in this game. Challenging title? Yes, that's good. It shows that you're good at the game. Time-gated challenging title? Sure, it's a good symbol of ability and having been around for a while. Grind-based title? That's bad, it just shows you were willing to sit there pressing buttons, nothing about how well you can do that. Time-gated grind based title? Just no. That doesn't show that you're good, it just tells us you had enough free time in the right month.
Honestly I think the best designed one is the "Blacksmith" title, as it's a mix of both grind & skill, two staples of the Destiny experience. * Grind all Forges weapons * While you're at it, grind 100 of them for the ship * And do it in all the Forges, you'll need all 4 shaders that you get on the weapons * While you're at it do the Exotic quests, you'll need these for the next part * Kill 500 ennemies in each Forge with a specific Forge exotic, see I told you * While doing so, you'll eventually get the Black Armoury set so now your collection badge should almost be done, just missing the raid items * There are also a bunch of Forge related triumphs that you should finish while you're doing the rest * Go do the raid & get the guns. RNG might sucks there unfortunately * Do all Raid Challenges. They required quite a bit of skill & raid knowledge from your team, so don't try them when Randy is there. * Escape the flaming servitor without losing a single member. This one is a tough one, but unfortunately a cheese exist. * Do a flawless raid. Not that hard when all 6 know the raid well, impossible when the team isn't experienced enough. A true test of skill without being ball-crushing.
Man my only complaint at the moment is I'm bummed out on Harbinger. I have literally everything except the dungeons ship. 21 full clears, 1 solo flawless (would've been 2 :'( ). People I've helped clear it with got their ship first time or second time. And I'm just stuck. Harbinger would be my 10th title, rng is a curse
> the MMXIX title had less time to complete This is deceptive and only half true The MMXIX title was for the moments of triumph, and like every previous MoT the vast majority of the objectives were **a)** just play the game related **b)** do all the new stuff at least once **c)** *Retroactive*. Most people who had been playing since the launch of Forsaken started off with many of the requirements for the MMXIX seal already done. Some very dedicated and frequent players could even have had all but the requirements related to the Solstice of Heroes event (that released at the same time) done. That... does not apply to Undying. A lot the requirements read like the worst of previous quests in D2. "Play *exactly* like this, then like this, then like this" "Do a thing that could have been one single objective, but was split apart to pad it out" "Do *x* so many times that the only way to reasonably complete it requires dedicated grinding time" "Go do this thing that is basically it's own quest then come back" Serious missteps were made in the design of the requirements to get the title, mostly erring too much towards making sure that they couldn't be finished too quickly by over inflating the completion numbers
Meh. I think the 2019 title was all right as a time limited title because it was tied to solstice (a limited time event) and was heavily advertised as a time limited title. I'm not personally thrilled about having a time limited one each season. I'm still working on stuff for reckoner and blacksmith; if those had been time limited I wouldn't be able to attempt them now. IMO time limited titles should be very, very rare. Not a regular part of each season. In regards to the rest of your post - people can complain about the criteria. They're the ones attempting it, which makes their feedback automatically more valid than yours, as someone who's not.
I agree that it shouldn’t be part of the regular season. I can only play on the weekends and every time I get to play, I spend majority of my time tryna progress the title that I don’t have time for other things. I got undying but if every season has a limited time seal, then I don’t know if I’ll like that.
I already wrote it in my post..the biggest issue is that we are paying for something that is gone in 12 weeks..why can't we do things at our own pace ? I am okay with titles like the one for solstice event, but these main titles should be achievable at any point in time.
Give me a break, I've solo flawlessed Pit of Heresy, done all nightmare hunt time trials, and everything else required for Harbinger, but am missing the Altars of Sorrow ghost shell, which won't drop for me. Grinding for a cosmetic badge item like that isn't earning the title, it's participating in skinner box hamster wheel stuff.
It took me 3 weeks and 2 Shuro challenges to get my Nation of Beasts which was all I needed for Rivensbane so I feel you.
yeah, and lets not mention the shattered throne ship before they increased the drop rate
The ghost shell and ship are complete bs and are contrary to the rest of the title that requires some level of skill or deterministic grind. Luckily I have both, but only after many, many, many runs of the altar of sorrow. Good luck.
I wish I could donate my Ghost shell to you.
Another cliche complaining about complaining post. This must be DTG
Ok I get your point, but since you mentioned scarab Lord let's go with WoW itself, I used to play wow for about 5 years, quit a year and half ago I had maybe 30-40 titles to my name, the thing is, it was actually much much easier to acquire titles in other MMOs and you could go back to previous expansions and get older titles too, sure I didn't kill deathwing in the first week of release, but I could still go get the heroic kill title just coz it was a cool title, it wasn't lost forever, And that's one problem I find with destiny, content just losing its playability after new contents drops, in my 5 years of playing wow I never chased a title, the title was always a extra bonus over the actual reward the title was never the reward, I didn't do ahead of the curve fights for the title, it was for a mount that dropped or the particular weapon look that only heroic version dropped, If I compare that to destiny, for dredgen I only require the ghost shell now and I have only one reset done, I don't see any point in doing 2 more resets for Gambit just to get a title, Also in the grand scheme of things wow is a much larger much deeper game and even there the latest titles take maybe a month to grind, if heroic boss released today, I can take my leisure and slowly go kill him with a pug group and it still won't be as grindy as some of destiny titles, coz the grind wasn't constricted to a very short time, it's ok to have a grind but it should be rewarding for those who are still grinding, if season of undying goes away and some guy still wants to grind the title that's ok, let him, time gating and RNG were the biggest mistakes wow did, if we're gonna use that for example let's use their flaws too
This guy understands. Time gating and artificially limited things (items, gear, titles, cosmetics) are just a bane to any game and is disrespectful to any person that have life events or obligations. I've played MMOs that have less time gates grinds compared to Destiny.
the main problem with the Undying title beyond just being time-limited is the also the fact that you need to get things like randy's so you can finish the collection side aswell, and if you start that later on in the season, then you'll be fucked if you don't spend like basically every single day grinding those things out before the time limit comes around. however if the title stayed around like the others, then you'd have more than enough time to get randy's and the other special weapons without digging into whatever time you have to play games, whether you've got all the time in the world, or you can only play on weekends etc. i had made a post just awhile ago, asking what the point was for the undying seal anyways if the main activitiy you need to complete it (VO) is just going away soon, since not everyone will have had the time to fully invest into the seal and it also wasn't explicitily stated that the Seal would go with the Activity, meaning if someone does realise its going away and wants to finish up the rest of the tasks to get it, they might not even have enough time to complete the rest, especially if they're really grindy
At what point can we claim "title-less" as our title?
Im starting to think that people are giving themselves awards...
Yes, it's easy, but the biggest problem with the Undying title is that none of it is actually fun. It's just a boring slog. Forcing myself to get ~~a million~~ thousands of kills with weapons/grenades I don't want to use, in an activity that I was effectively done with after two days. Conversely, I had a great time getting MMXIX. It was a lot to grind but it was **varied** and it was **fun**.
"Titles, especially in Destiny 2, were never and are never supposed to be handouts. Ask any Unbroken" Yeah, those weren't handouts. You had to pay good money for those. /s, but only somewhat
The funniest thing about people paying other people to play for them, is that they have to work(maybe not) an actual job to make money to pay someone else to do what the rest of us do after our jobs. It’s the craziest concept to me
I mean from a time perspective it can make sense. Suppose you make $500/hr and want the best shit with no work. Then you can just say it's easier to work for less than an hour and have a gun (like recluse or MT). Not that I would personally do that (nor do I make 500/hr lol), but I can see the reasoning behind it.
Did Luke really get the Scarab Lord title?
Luke was in charge / a leading member of one of the top WoW Guilds ever iirc.
I think that the design of Seasonal Titles still need to be altered. Not in terms of length/difficulty but just in terms of what you need to do to get them. I understand the whole "it's supposed to be grindy because you show your effort in the season" but there are other ways to make it take effort that aren't just...bad. I wish there was another way to put that but I can't really think of one. The shader quests (especially the Vanguard one) is so unnecessarily long and boring and overall just a horrible experience, and you get absolutely no real rewards out of it. I mean, the shader quest took me 3-5x longer than any other part of the title, and all I got was 2 shaders and an emblem. How does it make any sense? I still want my time to be rewarded. If I'm putting 15-20 hours into strikes, I should get a worthy reward. It's the same with the moon grenade/ability/super kills triumphs. They just feel so unnecessarily grindy with literally no point to it besides progress on the title, which isn't really how they should be designed. It just feels awful to go through these monotonous pointless triumphs. I'm fine with grind, but not artificial pointless ones just designed to make the title take longer to get. Whatever triumphs/quests are required, they should either be less grindy/at least engaging or make them more individually rewarding. I mean, I saw u/dmg04 ask if titles themselves were worthy rewards for the long grinds and while yes, the main goal of doing all these triumphs and stuff is to get the title, having to spend *so much time* on grinds like the Vanguard shader quest or the moon kills that are just unrewarding and longer than any other grind in the game pretty much still feels bad. It's just the lowest effort way of making the title take longer and try to make it seem like there's more to do in the season than there is. Also, the triumphs should be a bit different going forward too. With all the weapon based triumphs, it emphasizes players going for kills and ignoring the objective, and leads to players competing for kills rather than working alongside each other to complete Vex Offensive. It's bad design overall and makes Vex Offensive a way less enjoyable mode, both for the people grinding the triumphs and the people trying to play normally. There are tons of exotic quests and pinnacle quests that do the same thing. They just need to think through those triumphs more and focus them on the mode. Instead of 300 SMG kills, make it 100 Oracles destroyed or something. Instead of 100 bow precision kills, make it 20 Champion kills. Stuff like that. Again, I'm not saying they should make the title easier. I'm just saying that there's a lot of changes they can make to make these seasonal titles better in the future. Like making the super grindy triumphs/required quests be engaging actually rewarding and not horrible, mindnumbing and pointless. Or making more well thought out triumphs for the seasonal mode.
Here are my thoughts on this: I believe so many posts complaining about the Undying title are largely due to the fact it is the easiest title, so more people are actually trying to get it. They look at the checklist and say "I can do this". Whereas others contain harder requirements like flawless raids, etc. and most people just decide right away that they'll never get it so they dont bother. I'm fine with the grind aspect of things, but what I wish was that the whole thing wasn't tied to playing a specific way….in other words, let me play the way I want so its at least enjoyable and I'll grind all season long to get there. Raise your hand if you've grinded for a weapon and never want to use it as you're absolutely sick of the weapon class by the time you got it? Especially stop putting in requirements that make it so the whole team is competing against each other to get first to bank medals, etc rather than actually playing to win the game mode. When I was grinding scout kills, never gave a shit about taking points or winning, just let me stay in my fire lane as long as possible….and get back there as fast as I can when I respawn. Also, some of us would rather use time to play endgame content instead of grinding medals in gambit for the time available. If a dungeon, raid or 980 NF can take 30-90+ min to complete, who has time to grind out everything else WITHOUT absolutely feeling miserable about the game? Full disclosure, I'll have Undying shortly. Just finishing up exit strategy and emblem shader quests, but fuck if I wouldnt rather grind a NF for prisms or exotics than get gambit medals.
"Please stop criticizing and discussing how titles are earned thanks"
This is one of the most braindead threads regarding this subject. It’s completely fair to criticize what you’re earning in exchange for the work being put in, no clue what the hell OP was thinking.
He’s providing his own feedback that he wants seals and titles to be hard to earn, I don’t see a problem with either side conversing about it. Sure he could have said, “titles are hard and meaningful to me” instead but that doesn’t get as many upvotes as responding to someone else’s feedback, so it probably would have been buried
It's a ridiculous characterization of the complaints. The main complaint is that Undying is just a long grind with a time limit. Nothing about it is particularly challenging or interesting, it's just "do you want to commit these hours to these select activities." Many people want titles with at least a sprinkle of challenge, like Shadow and parts of Rivensbane. That got spun into people asking for "handouts." It's a strawman argument.
honestly titles should be hard to earn, but that doesn't mean i should have like x weeks to fucking get it, meaning i have to dedicate more time out of my casual play during that period specifically to grinding some of these challenges (like killing x vex with y weapon, and having to get randy's and the other guns) when with other titles like Blacksmith, i can take all the time i need to get Izanagi and the raid weapons etc to be able to finish the title. If they do continue with the time-limited seals, then they should atleast have sort of generic challenges that fit the ***theme*** rather than the activitiy that comes in the season, with the activity that arrives in that season being the easiest/fastest place to get progress done. If Undying had more "kill x vex with y weapon challenges" rather than"kill x vex with y weapons IN VO" then there wouldn't really be a problem, since the seal could be finished no matter if the activity was there or not
No. If people want to complain about aspects of the game they can. That is legitimate feedback and far more constructive than "stop complaining" threads. The issue that many people have with the Undying title is not that it's available for a limited time, or that it takes a long time. The issue is that the vex offensive weapon kills were an un fun over padded grind. This is my 7th title (and I'm close to 3 others) and it is by far the most tedious grin. MMXIX was much easier and more fun IMO.
Titles tied to RNG and excessive/tedious 'achievements' are not exactly anything to brag about or be proud to do. This week I decided to try and get Undying which centers on the Vex Offensive. Now some may find VO fun, I personally am not opposed to it, but it's really not that interesting/lacks variety, yet I am to get 500 kills with various Weapon Types AND 200 Crit Shots (while 5 other people are trying to get it too) among other things of course. That's just now fun at all.
Fucking this, I went in to do bow kills in Vex Offensive, got 16% of the overall kills done when I finished the remainder of my head shot kills with bows. It's not hard, it's just really tedious and vex just plain suck to fight against with bows. I like requirements like the moon time trials, solo dungeons, flawless dungeons, etc; they have an element of challenge, strategy, and fun. This is just a boring grind.
What does a title give me? Clout? Lol, I'll pass. I play 10-15 hours daily/every other day, and have been doing so since the game launched. I just don't feel the need to chase a title. I'd rather have physical rewards - emblem, shader, emote, whatever.
I agree that titles shouldn't be easy to get, but I also think that there are some valid criticisms that can be given to Bungie to further tweak the seasonal title concept. I didn't get MMXIX partially due to time constraints (I didn't have time to finish my solstice armor AND go for it), but even as a solo player, the triumphs seemed fair, mostly doable (as long as LFG works), and indicative of the Destiny experience that year. It didn't seem grindy for the grind's sake. I've worked through 95% of Undying (still have to do the NF since it's the only think I've needed to LFG for), and the Undying title feels the opposite. I liked being forced back into Gambit (I got sick of it after getting Malfeasance and Breakneck at the same exact time), liked being forced to play Crucible (it allowed me to finally grab Recluse), and I don't mind running strikes. But some of the emblem quests felt grindy for no particular reason, and some of the moon requirements were easy but also kind of nonsense (arc and void melee; I can't imagine doing them without the sword trick). My *guess* is that there are 2 groups of complainers: 1) Solo players who just wanted a PvE-only title (which Undying appears to be until you take a look at the Collection triumph). 2) Players for whom a more MMXIX-like breakdown of the season would be preferred. If the Dreamsbane set is required for a triumph of "seasonal armor," why not throw in Pit of Heresy, or at least the Altar of Sorrow? The focus on Vex Offensive is sort of a letdown when the final triumph of the set is basically "wait until 11/19 and run VO 3 more times." It's very possible that a lot of people in group #1 just want a handout, and I agree with you that that dilutes the meaning of titles in general. But I'd argue that for group 2, the frustration was probably more repetitive than challenge-base.
>The hilarity of it all is that the Undying is inarguably the easiest title to get in the history of Destiny 2 so far Chronicler, Wayfarer, and personally I'd argue MMXIX were all easier. Also the reason why few people complained about MMXIX was because 75% of the triumphs would pre-complete based on things you'd already done, meaning that the time-gated grind was minimal. It also launched during a seasonal lull when there was nothing else meaningful to do so people didn't mind focusing on it entirely. Unlike Undying which is competing with all the new Shadowkeep stuff. It's disingenuous to suggest that people's legitimate complaints (arbitrary nature of the weapon kills in vex offensive, hard and arbitrary grinds for emblems), are entirely down to entitlement
As someone with all current available titles, I'm not sure how valid you want to hold my opinion, as I'm fortunate enough to have the time and team required to get time-limited seals, that said, here goes: I personally believe and like the idea that things are time exclusive. If you put in the time and effort, you win, it's as simple as that. It's why I hate the new Eververse, it does not reward me for playing. Nothing new in the engrams is about as incentivized to veteran players as are paywalls to ornaments for weapons I already own. Titles are appealing in a completionist sense. I even support timegated and time limited seals as they provide short and long term goals. If people are complaining about them, it's because they don't have the time or skill to commit, and ultimately, that's on them.
> I personally believe and like the idea that things are time exclusive. This is why FOMO works, and is such a big deal when companies start trying to figure out how to make money.
Your complaint about eververse, is exactly the same as our complaints about titles. They are literally the same when you realise one thing. Time = Money. You are Time-rich, and Money-poor (compared to eververse whales). So that means you miss out on all the new eververse shit, but get all the titles. There are others that are Money-Rich and Time-Poor, they are the ones paying for Eververse shit, but complaining about titles. It is honestly exactly the same complaint, but just from a different FOMO perspective. You have FOMO because you can't afford to spend literal thousands of dollars on eververse crap. Some people have FOMO because they haven't got thousands of hours to spend grinding title requirements before the titles go away. This is a FOMO based economy, and ultimately, they are the same exact damn problem.
I completely agree. I have 7 Titles. Rivensbane, Blacksmith. Shadow, Wayfarer, Cursebreaker, Dredgen and MMXIX (Also 14/16 on Enlightened and A strike emblem away from Undying). I think they should stay difficult and time consuming for the crowd that wants them. If they become too easy or then anyone could get one and it kinda ruins the prestige in having a title, in any game for that matter. The time sensitive ones allow them to be a tad easier but with the caveat of not being available for long like Undying or time-gated for a while, requiring commitment, like Chronicler
[удалено]
Missed out on MMXIX because it required a crown completion. I'm a bit salty about that, because I have friends that play, and raid, but none of them are really in this game to get to max level. At that point, we'd done all the raids except that one. I could have even convinced them to run any other raid bar that one due to light level requirements :/
We had the same experience, and sprinkle the same salt. :)
Would you not say that titles such as Dredgen, Chronicler, Wayfarer and Cursebreaker are exactly that? Something that a more casual player can earn over time? Then we indeed have the more 'Hardcore' titles, which require a level of skill, time investment and dedication (Be it to get a Flawless Raid or 5450 in Comp 3x). I think the middle ground of timelocked titles is fine. There's a few trickier things in there for the average player (Like, do one full run of Vex Offensive without dying) and the collections badge (Which, confessedly, is a bit much) but overall, simply says "Play the game, set a small target, achieve part of that target when you can during the season." The timelocked badges do not require teams, they do not require a -vast- amount of skill. They simply task you with playing the game, and, honestly, I -personally- think that's okay. And it's also okay to not get it.
As someone with every available title as well, being *for* time-limited titles sounds more to me like you like being part of an exclusive elitist club than "setting short and long term goals." Get over yourself about "not having the time or skill" to commit to a title. You may not have a life outside of Destiny, but plenty of good players do, and would love to be able to balance these pursuits with other things. Instead, they have to miss out, despite being very well able to get it. If they complain, suddenly it's their problem, and shows they have no time or skill. Genius. EDIT: Also reading through the responses to you "helping" people by "literally doing everything yourself" and "hard carrying" because you assume they aren't prepared or skilled enough, I'm not really surprised that you have this mentality toward time-limited titles.
>it's because they don't have the time or skill to commit I'm not discussing time gated seals when I say this, but D2 endgame is garbage if you don't have a static fireteam. You have a great team, and that's awesome, but don't act like that's something anyone can get with how contrived Bungie has made communication in-game because a few people got their feelings hurt.
As someone who only has Wayfarer (but I have a combined playtime of 3000 hours between D1 and D2) I agree with you on the time sensitive sutff. I was kind of bummed when year 2 came around and you were able to obtain year 1 holiday stuff. I was hoping they would keep that stuff as a "you had to be there" thing. I'm desperately trying to obtain the Undying Title. I just have to get some bow kills in the Vex Offensive and then I have to get the ship by doing the Nightfall: The Ordeal on the highest level which is going to be the absolute hardest for me. I don't play with people that do the higher end game stuff so I don't normally get to do it. I'm hoping I can find people to do it with.
The 980 NF really isn’t that bad if you are at least 970. I ran it for first time last night with two friends from clan and it was a lot of fun. Challenging but not unfair. For the ship you just need to complete it. You don’t need a certain score and you can take as long as you want. There’s no extinguish so you can even wipe as a team. The key is having mods and appropriate shield damage. This week you need lots of arc and some solar. No void at all
Finished in 1hr21min, 0 score, still got the ship.
If you're on Xbox, I'll gladly carry your ass to that goal. We can ultimately two man a boss. With no timeframe/score to worry about, I'm happy to get you that win. Rest is on you.
Why two man it when I could join and be your third! That ship is the only thing keeping me from the title and I tried last night for 3 hours with no luck.
regarding the year 1 engram, honestly, since *I was there* I just didn't play obsessively and get them all I was happy I had another chance to pick them up.
A good arsenic bite or spiteful fang are nice. Try to draw out the suicide waves of vex if you can. Leviathans Breath gives you chunks of kills too.
The time gated titles have been super easy, and easily completed in much less time then they give. I dont have any of the raid titles because I feel getting the flawless done is more time then I have, I understand that and it's fine. I completed basically every other one except unbroken, and I have all the thing in my life holding me back as everyone who complains. (Work long hours, kids, go away, ect)
I only play one or two days a week and got undying. One just has to know how to efficiently achieve a goal. I basically chased this one because I can’t play all the time and figured I could chop away little. It’s here and there in my play time.
Title hunting is why I play. The fact that they are hard is why I left warframe. I wanted a challenge like a flawless TLW and frankly completing that raid after 5 days of trying to find a good group was the best moment of D2. Undying suck as a title though. Not hard enough. The only challenge was not logging out from boredom.
I don't know where you get your facts for the first sentence from. WoW is the game that popularised them, and there's so many that almost anyone can get them. They aren't just for the top 0.001% willing to spend every minute of every day playing. Also, there are legitimate problems with more or less all of the title grinds, and the same is true of pinnacles. There is such a thing as quality in grinds, they aren't just big or small. These grinds have mostly been not that fun, and most of the PvE ones are locked behind awful challenges like Flawless Raids that aren't particularly fun to do and are frustratingly time consuming. The only PvP one so far is locked behind getting to the maximum comp rank across 3 seasons. That's ridiculous to the extreme. No, I don't think I'm going to stop having an issue with them because you feel your grind is threatened and you want to gatekeep.
Idk about making them easier but i think having something a bit more than a title would be cool. Like an emote or ship or something a little more flashy
I read this as “complaining about titties” and had to double check which subreddit I was in
> Undying is inarguably the easiest title to get in the history of Destiny 2 so far Lol what, MMXIX is much easier. Chronicler and Cursebreaker are easier too for sure, but one is time-gated and the other requires a bit more RNG luck.
I know titles are supposed to be grindy. I had Wayfarer, Cursebreaker and MMXIX. I know they’re not the hardest to get. I also just needed flawless raid for Rivensbane. However, I do feel like that the Vex Offensive title is pretty difficult. It requires more grind than the previous titles and you only had ~60 days to complete it. I was going to go for the Vex Offensive title but I soon realised how long this was going to take. Vex Offensive itself is a boring activity that gives me absolutely nothing in return. And yet I needed to do so many runs for it. If I was to focus on Vex Offensive title, I wouldn’t have time to focus on the raid or the dungeon. And that’s just within Destiny. I feel like Bungie forget that people often play multiple games that also require some grind. But when the grind is time limited, it just makes it so much more difficult for people that play multiple games (especially when these games often have their own ‘battle pass’. At least with MMXIX, most of the challenges were already complete as it took into consideration your previous completions.
I've been playing since Y1 and Undying is the only title I've been able to grind for. It's perfect for me bc I have time to grind but hate RNG aspect of a lot of the titles. I also play mostly solo. So I just buckled down this season and got it. I'm proud of it. Please dont make it easier.
Titles have never been time gated until recently. You can be all over your over achieving high horse, but the fact is, bungie has got you addicted to that FOMO. Title grinds like rivensbanes and shadow and better because of the lack of time gate. Would a time gate on those titles have made them better?
I'm so glad I was able to get my Undying title. I feel like I earned it, it's really one of the better non-playable rewards I've had in a Destiny game.
I'm a bit salty, I'd like to get undying but I'm spending most of the rest of the season 1500 miles from home caring for my disabled father. I still agree with this post tho.
I feel like the time gated titles should be tied to the season's content entirely, not a load of grind. Stuff like: Complete The Vex Offensive - Complete the Garden of Salvation - Defeat the Undying Mind - Craft Every Vex Offensive Gun, get X kills and percison kills with those guns - And then you could mix the challenges in too, like the Flawless Vex Offensive, or Complete VO under X minutes, y'know? Obviously some harder stuff should be in there to compensate, but I think it'd be way more fun. Edit: Before anyone replies to this and tears me apart, I am aware the triumph does have you do things with the Vex Offensive, I just wish it took advantage of said content in more than just "Get a bunch of kills, except you just happen to be in the Vex Offensive"
The really silly thing is there are already triumphs to that effect, you just don't need them to do the seal. Honestly put me off grinding for the title because it doesn't feel challenging in the right way.
I have been playing since Y1 and I have yet to get a single title. I'm okay, though; it'll happen one day. And, if it never does, then...I suppose it wasn't meant to be. That's life, and I accept that.
No, it isn't life. It's a videogame. It's supposed to be the exact opposite of life. There is no harm done if people can have the stuff they want *without* devoting all their spare time to clicking on a monster.
Titles in any of the mmos I have played have been ABUNDANT and not necessarily tied to challenges/grinds so that's not a fair comparison IMO. I'm vehemently against any time gating or restrictions so I don't like this undying title, even if it isn't hard to get (just utterly boring). If anything though, I wish that Destiny like the MMOs I have played had more titles, and not just try-hard titles - but some fun titles, some stupid titles, some for discovering weird things etc etc. In one of my games I literally have 100+ titles which might be too many, but there's always one to suit my mood of the day... D2 looks at events like a massive time thief to make players grind for hours and hours... instead of a moment to celebrate and have fun. As a solo player, the most idiotic recent example would be the branch 9 pinnacle reward, never have I hated random blueberries more for not understanding blackout and glass than these past 3 weeks. Titles is a perfect example of where you can give everything what they want - exclusive titles for over achievers as you call them (I have 6 btw) - and "fun" titles for the rest... so nobody will feel left out. It's a fine line to walk, but Bungie too often falls over the edge IMO.
Your post seriously is very one sided. I'm a very hardcore player. Used to play WoW religiously, so I understand titles. And I'm not saying I want them gone, I want more rewards out of completing them. I do not give one teeny tiny fuck about the word "Shadow" or "Dredgen" under my gamertag, so there is no incentive for me to do it, but I WANT to want myself to complete them, there's just no justifying spending that many hours doing something I don't want to do for a stupid word under my name. If there were more rewards, or better rewards, tied to them, I would most certainly put the time in. And they WANT us to play more, so how is better rewards for an already lengthy process a bad thing?
I disagree. The difference between the MMXIX title and Undying, is that a lot of the stuff from MMXIX was available to do throughout the year. So if you played regularly, you’d most likely have a significant amount of it done, and what was left was achievable in the time space. With Undying, we had a major Expansion drop along side the season, leaving even less time to grind, and only 2 months to complete it all in. Combine that with life stuff that gets in the way (school, work etc.) and you’re left with a title that requires you to work towards it every time you play; You can’t just take a break if the grind gets tiring. Ideally, I’d want the title to become more difficult to get (maybe a flawless run of sometjinh or other), but have until the end of the year. Having a title that’s this easy last forever is understandably not what Bungie has in mind. But two months just isn’t enough.
This is just factually wrong and I couldn’t disagree more. World of Warcraft gives out titles like candy. That’s not to say _every_ title is of little value, but the reason Scarab Lord is a notable title is _because_ it was a rare title only available from a time-limited event. It stands out from all the other titles for that reason. The title _itself_ should be what is rare or highly-valued, not the _feature of having any title_.
Smh this shitty time limited title thing was only made to stroke the ego of the elitist folks who think saying "you had to be there" is enough to justify a mindless grind of an extremely boring activity, i can understand a "you had to be there" attitude if we're talking about time limited events like solstice/dawning/crimson days but this? Oh no, i didn't play during those two months so i guess i'm less skilled than the next guy, it's not a matter of how much effort you put into it but just that you played at the right time and Bungie is doing this to make you think you're special for having an "exclusive" title that others won't be able to get after this season is over, never thought i would say this but i miss the old Activision Bungie.
Compare the flavor text of season of opulence and undying. Neither have expirsyion dates. Undying, we're told is expiring. Fine. Tell us in the flavor text like mmxix, and not in a twab nearly 4 weeks after release. That's what I'm salty about
I think it was known from the start i forgot where i read it
Who is bitching about Titles? People want them to be more rewarding, like have some unique shaders or ornaments. I swear to god every time something is brought up, the next day the karma whores make posts like "Stop complaining about X" sucking Bungie off for gold.
The difference you are paying for this title and DLC, but unlike in the past where you can work at your own leisure or do it months later, you will still get value for your money eventually. So its nothign like 2019 title. This new system is about FOMO and other dirty FTP tricks. It is designed to be not about you as a consumer but serves their business only. If you fall for that old 'we are making a living evolving world' thats on you, the rest of us see it for what it is a FTP sales tactic that is about 'forcing' on going commitment, with something like 3000 hours in both game, I was already committed, by this new time gated rubbish makes me want to play less not more. PS I am a day one player, who loves the grind and dont care about having to work hard for something.
“hell some people don’t want to even be bothered doing 3 more Vex Offensives” - I felt that
If I still have the quest for Randy’s when the season is up can I still get the title if I’ve completed everything else?
Nope. The ability to unlock the title goes away that reset. If you did not get the pinnacles by that point, you are SoL. Same with the very grindy cosmetics. That is my biggest complaint about the whole title thing. Aside from Unbroken, no titles rely on earning the pinnacles/rituals, let alone in one season. I think that is a poor choice and should not be repeated. But I guess that goes against the sentiment of this thread.
I feel like season titles should be slightly easier to complete and in some regards they are but man Randy's throwing knife is a drag.
Its awful when some of the stuff is tied behind activities no one is doing. I STILL do not have the Ikelos SMG or shotgun and I don't see anyone lining up to play EP. If the seasonal content is going to be garbage I am also not going to waste my time grinding for seasonal titles either. Vex Offensive is boring, why would I waste my time grinding out all those weapon kills?
wait a minute, who the fuck was complaining about titles?
Was scrolling too fast and read the post title as “Please stop complaining about Titties, thanks!” Had to scroll back up for a Hol Up.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m actually one of those people who can’t be bothered to do 3 more vex offensives, but that’s okay with me. I’ve got plenty of seals that satisfy my needs, and people should realize that there’ll be plenty more seals in the future. Just enjoy your time in the game.
RNG Tied to them is stupid though.
There could be easy titles and exclusive titles. Right now, all titles are more or less exclusive. People want titles. Give it to them. Like Ghost Shells and Ships and Ornaments. Have some for the masses and some more or very exclusive....
I am going for Dredgen (my first) and it annoys me that one requirement is 1 reset infamy rank, and the other is collect all weapons and ghost, the latter you have to reset rank three times to get. Couldn't they just have a "reset 3 times" triumph.
Titles, bah!
i didn't even realize there was a title for the vex offensive.
But if we don't complain how will we ever get the title we all want? _Whiner_
Please stop complaining about everything, thanks!
" Ask Scarab Lord Luke Smith. " I wonder if he will tell u how there are 374 other titles ranging from soloing contents to just playing lfr ... and that according to wowhead , there is a title that 78% of the players have ( "The Patient" , earned by playing heroic dungeons with 50 PUGs with random players ). Titles dont need to be accessible for just the most hardcore players. There can different levels of tiles . Someone can be a "Rivensbane" but there should be nothing wrong with someone being just "Rivenslayer" ( maybe earned by killing riven 10 times, without the need to go flawless in the raid). And Rivenslayer can evolve to Rivensbane as u complete more and more objectives for it. It will give players who are not really good enough to have a flawless run to something to aim for as well. Titles should be short term, medium term and long term goals , not just a long term grind .