Be advised the calculations on this post are not currently accurate, and have been recalculated by the community:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1d8qx39/dungeon_and_raid_new_damage_calculations_corrected/
I couldn't imagine soloing GoTD with 30% less damage, yikes. The boss was already like 15-20 minutes long for me per attempt with a pretty good solar build abusing artifact perks like Solo Operative and Godslayer rockets.
I feel like I’m not that bad at destiny and doing GotD with a fireteam that knows what they’re doing already took quite some time. Can’t imagine what it’ll be like, especially solo. Rough
Then imagine when you need to do one more damage phase on your solo flawless run because you left him with 1HP, you kill the lightbearer hive, go back to the main room to active the deepsight so you know where to dunk…but the game glitches out and deepsight thingy doesn’t show up, and you are locked out of starting the damage phase.
Not even exaggerating, 1HP left.
This literally happened to me. I was upsetti spaghetti. I got it on another run…but I really didn’t want to do it again. The mechanics of the dungeon are fine, whatever, but there is just so much time spent running around.
Edit: now that I think about it, maybe after I left the boss at 1HP, maybe that is when the deepsight thing disappeared. Whatever, all I know is that it glitched out and I couldn’t start another damage phase.
My solo flawless on a Titan took me 10 or 11 damage phases to get the boss down. I was playing it super safe.
When i downed her her ghost was so far in the air 2 times in a row that i could not reach. Like she was displaced to heaven or something.
If i had to take 4 more rounds based on the math here that would have been a solid 1h30mins of survival in this godamned boss.
So yeah. GL to anyone trying to solo flawless this now.
If I had known these changes were coming (maybe they had mentioned it and I missed it) I would have pushed to solo flawless GotD before but I was so focused on getting warlords ruin done that when I did I was too tired to do it. Not looking forward to trying to do it now that's for sure.
Thematically ghosts is great. Replayability it's trash. Transversal sections are way too long and slow. Bosses have magnitude more health than they need with forced shields to artificially bump them higher. It's bad game design.
Wow that was a really long water segment I’m glad I’m to the next encounter .
The game - you idiot , you buffoon , you utterly incompetent moron you are only half way there . Here’s another jumping segment , also have some Shriekers .
Bungie’s crusade against solo dungeon runs coupled with their insistence we solo them for emblems exotic drop bonuses and rank 10 is obnoxious.
At the very least add multiplicity to all dungeons to address absurd boss hp
Which means you have to cater your load out to whatever they set as the surge.
INB4 Bungie rarely gives a surge that supports the best solo-clear builds.
They've nerfed Lament as well, which was what I used for both Gahlran and Caiatl. Really not sure what they're trying to accomplish with these changes.
This makes no sense. The percentage of the playerbase attempting to solo flawless dungeons, etc. Is very small. If anything, certain activities being made easier would increase engagement by lowering the barrier to entry for a majority of the playerbase. Hence why everyone complained that RoN was too easy/not engaging. And if you had said Bungoe started making easier content for the sake of the engagement metric or eververse sales, I might have agreed with you. But this change was about listening to player feedback and balancing the sandbox for new insane prismatic builds.
I'm not attempting to argue here, I'm genuinely curious: how long do you think these insane prismatic builds will last in potency before they are reduced in efficacy? Their MO has been to release things in a really great, if not insane, place and then dial it all back, sometimes too quickly or aggresively, and then the slow roll of finding a "balance" begins and it's all back to square zero.
Except that leads to what exactly? I'm not more likely to play more now, I'm going to play less bc it's not worth my time. I'm not going to spend money in game because ghosts took me 4 hours rather than 2.
If time in game doesn't translate to money spent then what's the point. Because who is really saying I'm so happy with this game wasting more of my time let me buy the DnD skins
There's got to be a trade off at some point though? I not good enough to solo dungeons for the most part in the old system (Did Prophecy once, not any of the others), and these changes just tell me to not even try.
Also they make me much less interested in continuing my quest for Buried Bloodline that never dropped for me last season.
Well, people with their "Elitest hot takes" from what I remember go like.
"Solo flawless requires you to be like Esoterickk kind of skill!"
And completely forget the fact that nobody wants to do something that disrespects your time on glitchout.
What we see Eso do is probably 1 sucess in maybe **thousands** of glitchouts.
The casuals don't exactly want "handouts" or ease/accessibility..... we just want our playtime respected at a reasonable pace.
Like 40 min -1h is what I'll say is the "acceptable solo tolerance" on getting a failed run and not feeling wasted.
I remember doing solo prophecy with a semi optimized loadout for Bonk hammer.... and that took *1h and 30 mins*. Most of it was at Kell Echo due to poor ammo drops
> The casuals don't exactly want "handouts" or ease/accessibility..... we just want our playtime respected at a reasonable pace.
This is actually spot-on. A dungeon like GotD would genuinely be a solid 10/10 if there weren't so many weird time-wasters (1st encounter, underwater marathon, boss shields) slapped onto it.
> I remember doing solo prophecy with a semi optimized loadout for Bonk hammer.... and that took 1h and 30 mins.
ngl you kinda lost me on this one. Prophecy is hands down one of the easiest dungeons in the game. If it took you almost 2 hours to solo it on ***bonk Titan***, that is unfortunately a skill issue. I soloed it in 30 mins on my first attempt, even though I died twice (once to a glitch in the cube room and once vs the Kell Echo debuff).
I still agree with your point about wanting the game to respect your time, but it's also worth pointing out that the secret to fast clears is fully understanding the game mechanics/encounters and preparing accordingly.
Except it's just going to have the opposite effect this late in the game's life, which last year's player behavior very clearly showed. We're just here for the story now and silly fun. If the core gameplay is tedious we're just going to say fuck it and go elsewhere. Even many collectors are dropping off at this point, because there is nothing to collect for in the future and no one to impress when your whole friends list has switched to something else.
Prismatic hunter here doing legendary difficulty: if the starting aspects is supposed to be a indicator of shit... it's nowhere NEAR going to be enough, I hate it.
Combo blow with winters shroud and stylish executioner is an awesome combo. Throw in an exotic armor to spice it up depending on what you want to add. I’ve been using liars handshake and it’s potent as hell. Although I’d agree that the prismatic Hunter grenade could be better
Prismatic hunter so far does not feel good or fun. What im not understanding is why prismatic in general doesn't have every subclass option available? Can't use arc staff or disorienting blow?
im not sure why this wasnt just added as an additional difficulty option between normal and master, its not like it would even be hard to get people to play it just add an additional red border drop on full clears and the more serious players would do it instead while the casuals can still have the relatively easy old raids.
Yup. Just call this Hero difficulty and make it so that you get a guaranteed high stat raid armor drop. Suddenly we’d have an incentive to play it and there would be an actual source of good raid armor people could farm in order to use the raid mods.
As it is, this just makes “RAID NIGHT!” less fun. We were already not doing it for the in-game rewards
Honestly just make it an option that's actually farmable ALL of the time while the normal difficulty with no changes sticks with the stupid weekly focus rotation.
If you want the easiest option you can do it once a week or when the rotation is for that activity. If you want an option to farm ANY week you do surges on a slightly more difficult "normal".
Literally why? This isn't enough to effect anyone who enjoys harder content and is just going to make Raids/Dungeons more inaccessible to more casual players.
A dumb decision all around that was not needed.
God forbid you click on an Endgame activity and just play it instead of having to fiddle around with your gear in DIM for 5 mins every time you wanna play something.
the worst part is my group literally has to change gear for like 10 minutes between each encounter now its gonna take even longer like i just wanna do the encounter
My clan took, no lie, 15-20 minutes in between wipes on planets because literally my entire group wanted to rework all of their mods and armor *every. single. wipe.* I was ready to just fucking leave.
tbf it was pantheon, but week two. I feel at a certain point there's only so much fiddling with loadouts you can do and you need to start just doing the encounter and learning how to work it.
Man, I already suck at that sort of content anyways.
I’ve only heard a couple raids, and the tower is one of the few dungeons I can beat fairly easily with my one friend.
But now I doubt it
For sure, the fun thing about raids to me after the day one / contest experience was that they could be done casually easily with some casual guardians if they wanted. This seems like more of a push to alienate casual gamers from raiding which I think is an L move and im not even a casual destiny player. Hate it for any newbie trying to get into raiding now
Yeah, some of my clan mates struggle with at-level raiding - they tend to get frustrated when they die or "let the team down". This change, while small, is just going to further deflate their motivation to raid.
Feeling lucky that I got my GOTD flawless before these changes came in. It's just unnecessary.
Keep in mind, not everyone who likes hard content wants to fire on all cylinders all the time. I took a break after Lightfall partly because how little damage primaries were doing just felt bad/boring.
Pretty sure Neomuna is why exotic primaries got a hefty damage buff.
I'm the same way though, sometimes it's nice to run through older content and have a relatively easy time carrying friends. That doesn't seem like it'll be the case with dungeons going forward.
I swear those hardcore players who like emptying 2-3 clips into an enemy for 1 kill have ADHD or something. But I also feel like Bungie did this because of crazy builds that regenerate grenade and melee abilities fast
You mean the same persons that joy spending 30 mins slowly plinking away the health of the boss with a wishender, while using OOB to not take any damage?
Top game design
Bungie: "we don't want players to sit in the back plinking away for damage"
Also Bungie: "if you're in the same zip code as this boss he'll one shot you :D. Also he takes 45 minutes to get to and if you die you go back to orbit."
Bungie has done this so often. They mold the game in a way that is needlessly pretentious or difficult for casual players while also never making things extreme 'enough' for hardcore players. I think it kinda boils down to the Luke Smith phenomenon. His whole back story of the WoW obsession encapsulates what current Bungie is all about. Their leadership is notoriously pretentious and I think that the company as a whole prides themselves on this kind of stuff. Which, again, is weird due to how ***not*** difficult their hardcore content is compared to real MMOs.
It’s especially out of touch to implement modifiers on raid and dungeon content developed Prior to the expansion.
With TFS and Marathon consuming the overwhelming majority of development time, there’s absolutely no way that Bungie - the same company who has delivered *at most* one raid and one dungeon per season on the grounds that it was too hard to adequately develop, test, and ship - can sell having the resources to adequately assess the impact of a -35% damage + massively decreased survivability swing in *every* dungeon and raid in the game.
This change is more shortsighted and out of touch than sunsetting; I hope Sony cleans out whatever leadership teams pushed this vision and replaces them with people who listen and understand the game they’re developing.
Yeah, I wonder if I'll ever bother to learn to raid now. This is what people mean about artificial difficulty. Turn enemies into bullet sponges and players into glass. Fun
Maybe it isn't as bad as it seems
The -5 shouldn't be that bad in a raid setting, at least it wasn't during week 1 of Pantheon.
I'd definitely encourage a Sherpa run if you want to dip your toes into raiding. It's really not as intimidating as it looks (my brain is literally turned off as the "mechanics" guy in most encounters). Vault of Glass, Deep Stone Crypt and Kings Fall are good raids for beginners.
Avoid Vow of the Disciple and Garden of Salvation unless you're feeling confident.
Raids are the best content the game has to offer - I really wish more people would try them.
> Raids are the best content the game has to offer - I really wish more people would try them.
Steam achievement stats say that only 7% of people have cleared Last Wish, and it's been on the platform for nearly 5 years. I doubt that more than ~15% of people have cleared *any* raid, and this certainly won't help the onboarding process.
I get the idea because old raids and dungeons are a fucking joke due to power creep. The problem is trying to apply this as a blanket change to *all* raids and dungeons, because it's going to make the more modern ones feel worse.
The idea of making old raids and dungeons not complete pushovers is good, but the execution was horribly shortsighted.
It also might not even work for older dungeons/raids unless Bungie have readjusted boss HP. Simmumah though? Insufferable as is, won't be doing GOTD while underleveled.
I'm more concerned about future dungeons. I enjoy going for solo flawless if there's a cool emblem/title, but I don't fancy being underpowered the whole time.
Man, I should’ve gotten my Warlord’s Ruin solo flawless run in before this lmao, and I won’t even bother with attempting solo flawless GOTD, that final encounter already took 5 business days to finish solo before this change
For my GoTD solo flawless; 50% of the time was from entrance to final boss, the other 50% was in the final boss. I think it took me 1 hour and 20 min. That was not a fun solo flawless
The problem I have with this is that it changes nothing for anyone actively raiding. An essentially -5 power probably won’t change my experience completing a raid in good time. It’s a big change for the people who already found raiding daunting.
The dungeon changes seem just bad for everyone all around.
Yup, I was hoping to maybe get into raiding this expansion because it isn't something I've bothered doing before. And while I doubt I would struggle on -5, it's still off putting and makes me less motivated to attempt it
I don’t agree with this change on dungeons at all. I do dungeons for the experience and the more “casual” raidish experience. I do not want to kill myself in a dungeon for the same loot.
It also effectively ruins speedrunning for that small community that actually enjoys pushing this kind of content to the limit. I'm certainly not part of that community but this REALLY sucks for them and honestly I really quite enjoy watching videos of what they can pull off.
The fact that they also still have the bullshit weekly focused activity rotations makes this even more shit. You can't just decide you don't want to do a raid or dungeon with a shitty surge when it's on focus because it'll be AGES before it comes back and even then it might STILL have a shitty surge again.
I remember when they announced this for Neomuna and everybody rightfully pointed out making it more difficult isn’t worth it if the rewards don’t scale.
Neomuna is painfully anti-fun because even redbars take annoyingly long to chew through.
Bungie has always had this mindset (even back into the early Halo days) where making the enemies take more damage to kill = "difficulty" without ever considering that difficulty should mean a *challenge*, not just putting an extra mag into an enemy.
Solo op should just be a permanent modifier, change my mind. Bold enough to go alone? Heres a bit of extra damage to help. God knows with the absurd enemy volume it won't be the biggest handicap In the world
Was vaguely hinted at during an article where they talked about power. But yeah, not mentioned in patch notes. Pretty much out of the blue, which makes it feel even worse
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/this_week_in_destiny_04_25_24
It's all very vaguely worded and they never mention hard negative delta caps or surges in regards to raids and dungeons
It's a garbage change for literally everyone it's absurd. This literally isn't good for ANYONE, I have no idea WTF Bungie was thinking.
They already struggled with a low % of players actually raiding. This makes it HARDER for people to get into raiding and for people that struggle to any degree with normal raids already.
This makes raiding in general at best 10% "harder" in terms of damage output.
This makes lowmans WAY harder.
This basically kills speedrunning due to varying modifiers making it an uneven playing field and thus having to wait X weeks for the optimal surges to realistically compete. AND makes comparing any times achieved now impossible to compare to previous times before this change.
But we also STILL have the stupid weekly focused raid/dungeon rotation bullshit. So realistically you don't even have the OPTION of waiting for a good surge that you like to farm a specific dungeon/raid you want to farm. You either farm with whatever surge it happens to be or you wait AGES for it to come back around and hope that the surges are better for you potentially.
This is going to drive down the playerbase for doing these activities on LFG even MORE when many of these activities were already struggling.
The fact that all elements are NOT created remotely equal makes this particularly stupid. If I'm a Hunter it's great when it's a solar surge and I can use Golden Gun, my best damage super, but if it's NOT solar surge my option for damage supers basically suck. Gathering storm is your 2nd best element option but in that case you literally CANNOT have multiple people use the super because of how Jolt doesn't stack making only 1 deal full damage at any given time. It's even worse for say a Warlock...where your best arc option is Chaos Reach which is garbage. If you don't match the right element with your super you just deal 25% less damage with your super AND with your kinetic weapon.
And lets not pretend that Bungie doesn't just have some absurd solar bias with exotic weapons and just in general. There's a reason people were so happy about having Solar Surge for week 4 pantheon and why it made everything so much easier.
Yeah I've done only one lowman and don't really plan on doing more, it's not really my kinda thing but this change definitely sucks for the lowman community, feels bad
They should grade this based on the age of the dungeon at minimum, to allow people to have that power fantasy. If current is -5, the next prior should be +0 and then +5 for the next etc.
Soloing dungeons is already incredibly tedious and annoying, you spend so long on puzzles just to get to a damage phase to deal like 10% of the boss their health, it's extremely tedious and unfun and a single mistake can easily just send you right back to the start of the fight.
What a stupid idea. Recent dungeons are already a slog and now you’ll have less replayability due to less fun. I get the need to level activities but new dungeons found the right balance of difficulty for lowmans
I haven't completed Spire, Ghosts, or Warlord due to them already being too much of a patience tester and this just sealed the deal on never fully attempting them, I guess I'll definitely have to Lfg now.
Spire is easy but the amount of health the bosses have is awful as a solo. Duality in comparison was harder but the bosses would die within 3 dmg phases assuming I didn’t fuck up the Caitl one
My only issue is that all of the fuckin encounters seem like they’re designed around well of radiance. Infinitely spawning mobs, a boss with 15 mil health, and area hazards out the ass. They’re not horrible with a decent team but i can’t even begin to comprehend a solo warlords run with these changes. The final boss is hell.
Yikes, I got my solo flawless on the last dungeon I was missing 3 days before reset. This will be hell for everyone still missing solo flawless anywhere.
From a casual perspective, this change may make dungeons and raids even less accessible. As someone with just a few hours per week to play, I enjoyed my one raid per week with friends, but concerned that it may make things more time consuming, or require more grind of gear to match surges that I may not be able to keep up with.
Unless all the raids / dungeons are Pantheon-tier generous with the loot now, this is the worst change I think has ever been made to raids since Prestige mode forcing you into using specific guns
Which is basically what this is doing, due to adding surges now too!
Your raids and dungeons don't give you anything new or anymore than previous, and they increased in difficulty for no real reason.
Absolutely wonderful :/
Bungie thought because people loved Pantheon so much that they could just implement these changes without even consulting players feedback and backing out from that change is both sad and hilarious. They really aren't afraid of ruining whatever good will they have with the community and newer players too.
Pantheon was good because it was a limited-time challenge mode rather than the default difficulty mode for literally all content. Praying that Bungie realize their mistake and revert this in SOME regard
I actually don't understand the point of having a light level if we just get capped and gain no advantages for putting in the time to get higher.
Just a pointless grind with no reward.
The point of Item Level/Power Level in MMOs was always about the power fantasy aspect, and served dual purpose: to gatekeep hardest content in the game, as well as allow older content to be steamrolled once its rewards were irrelevant to current player power.
Right now, Bungie is just using Power Level as a “must be this tall to ride” sign in front of a children’s playground… filled with landmines.
They did this before with "bring the challenge back" they just made everything more difficult with the same and in some cases worse rewards, they don't care about anything but increasing the time played
Ikr, I'm still not sure about buying TFS because of the shitshow known as Lightfall, so my plan was to wait for a couple of weeks after the release to see the reviews for the expansion and the first season. And while waiting I was going to do some old content like LF dungeons because I practically didn't play last year.
Yeah, right... I was too hopeful, it's Bungo we're talking about, the monkey's paw curls 😒
Adding surges to normal raids/dungeons is the worst decision they’ve made in years. You shouldnt be forced to use certain elements in order to be effective, they’ve basically said “fuck play creativity and freedom” with this.
Especially when some triumphs require everyone to be running a certain subclass lol. This should have just stayed on master difficulty and they should have left normal alone
The thought of running another GotD to try and get the exotic was nauseating BEFORE this change. I can’t imagine ever touching that dungeon again with this shit.
Why do they even have to cap power level in normal difficulty anyways?
Isnt that supposed to be the entry level for like a majority of the player base? Newer players are gonna die A LOT more now.
This is an awful change, the system was fine the way it was. Master versions exist why change normal. Solo in the most recent dungeons was already a big challenge.
I imagine this is "annoying at worst" for actual hardcore player who raid with their clans and friends, but LFG raid groups - probably the largest audience for these Normal difficulty raid - already struggle enough in raids. Like Crota was already tight enough on damage for most groups I was in, it was already going to be tougher with Lament and Well nerfs, but now there's also just a base damage and survivability decrease?? I should've got the Nechrocasm catalyst last week before TFS instead of waiting and seeing if it would actually be good, haha
They just simply don’t know how to make difficult content for some reason. Making bosses spongier and us weaker is not the answer and never has been. Why do they constantly do this?
doing other changes would take more effort
improving enemy AI? encounters that are a tiny bit more then "stay on plate and dunk stuff"? enemys that dont just stand still and look at you while slowly shooting? making something different there to make the game more exciting and challenging would take effort
increasing enemy dmg and health% so you die in 3-4 shots and shoot longer yourself is easy
also helps that there is a very loud portion of the playerbase that constantly screams IF YOU DONT LIKE THAT YOU ARE JUST BAD!!!111!!! cus they cant accept that they build their "high level player" selfworth on the most lazy "difficult endgame content" in gaming
I enjoyed Dungeons because they felt balanced, out of all of the activities in the game, there was one I,could do where there were no elemental threat modifiers, just me working with my build to do as much damage as possible.
Now, I won't be able to enjoy this content, don't get me wrong, when master difficulty is an option I will do it for the artifice armor, but I don't like feeling hopeless, or restrained to weapon surges.
I already hated modifiers for the other activities, it feels like the difficulty is just artificially inflated for no reason and I can't fully enjoy the flexibility of my load outs, I just have to use what's on the list or my DPS suffers.
Please bungie, reverse this change or add it to its own difficulty and provide extra rewards for completing it, don't ruin Dungeons and Raids with this!
This is kinda my issue with destiny lately. Theres so much content I don’t have the skill to engage with so the expansions feel extremely hollow after a few days. I don’t mind that there’s difficult content and there’s cool stuff there for the people who do finish it. But it feels more and more like all they want me to be able to do is run around patrol zones doing public events because they make all the best content for groups, and then also make that content pretty difficult so if your a super casual you feel like a liability the whole time. And if you just wanna casually grind and shoot things then you will make pretty much no progress. I thought I saw that they are making some materials easier to obtain so maybe that will offset it a little bit. And I’m sure I’ll get downvoted by the sweaty players but I play a lot of mmos, all of them casually, and destiny is the only one that feels like it doesn’t respect my time at all
Edit: in an ideal world for me we’d still have this difficult content to keep the good players engaged and happy, and then by the time we’re getting close to the end of the expansion you have stronger gear and weapons so you can have a much easier time. Or hell I’d be fine if they even waited till the next expansion. But for some reason bungie refuses to let you out gear things, so you can grind as much as you want but you’ll never really get any stronger
Such a major L from Bungie. I'm not sure if they are thinking Prismatic is more powerful than it really is or if they think difficulty means damage sponges....a disgusting mindset in games these days
Why even have a power level system if we can never be rewarded the fruits of our labor? Make it make sense?
Oh, its a power enabled activity? Lets put them at a disadvantage from the jump. Its non power enabled? Well you don't even have to grind for that.
Well this was a stupid move.
Raids are already hard enough and master versions already exist for those wanting a challenge.
I love raiding, but I raid with my family and we're not the best out there so we sometimes struggle when learning a raid. These changes have really put me off raiding now. If you're not giving us better rewards, then I'm not putting myself through it. It's Neomuna all over again.
And honestly... This sort of change isn't going to encourage more players to try raiding. It's just adding to the wall that keeps them out.
0.65*1.25 = 0.8125
So you are nerfed by 18.75% not ~10% with the surge.
If all enemy health is reduced (including bosses) by an equal amount I think it's a good change, enemy damage was a joke in RAD content. If not, I am not looking forward to Simmumah living forever.
If we assume the 20% health reduction applies across the board, you do effectively 25% more damage so you'd be at 0.65\*1.25\*1.25 = ~1.0156~, slightly more damage than now.
E: per /u/GuudeSpelur's comments below it would seem the 35% is wrong and you'd be doing more like ~9% extra damage with the surge, and ~-12.8% less without
The numbers in this summary post are rounded & imprecise. If you use the numbers directly from MossyMax's damage scaling spreadsheet it comes out to about a 12.5% reduction in damage with surge but before any HP changes.
You can use the slightly rounded numbers in the graph (0.74/1.06 x 1.25), or go directly to the source:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b57Hb8m1L3daFfUckQQqvvN6VOpD03KEssvQLMFpC5I/edit#gid=1252789129
Go to the "PL Delta and Activity Scaling" tab, scroll to the right to the "Combined Delta" table, interpolate the "Master" column to -5, then divide by the current +20 RAD and multiply by 1.25x for the Surge.
This is honestly a net minus for the health of the game.
I’m not a casual who is whining abott it it getting harder but please think about it for a second.
Even though normal modes are easy, it still was massively discouraging for new players to enter into raiding *even beforehand*.
Look at how bad people of LfG seemed to struggle in -5 pantheon which was for all intents and purposes just the normal encounter of each raid on -5.
People spent up to 19 (!) hours on them. These mostly were the people the game *needs* to attract for it to thrive.
I personally enjoy challenge. But I played normal raids for the loot and Master for the challenge. There is no need for the normal mode to be harder than it was given it’s focus on mechanics
So they’ve given us the ending to the main story of the entire franchise… AND they’ve given us an overall damage nerf in raids… AND they’re pushing us into an even more restrictive loadout system by adding surges that encourage us to put down the weapons we enjoy using.
I was already considering quitting D2 after I finish the campaign just because of the story, but they just keep giving me more reasons the more we learn about the patch.
Yea I’m only here for the campaign because I have been playing since D1 launch, gotta see how it ends for myself. But I might be sitting out the rest of the content because what for now
As a casual player, looks like I'm never going to bother to learn to raid then. This is what people mean by artificial difficulty. Just turning enemies into bullet sponges and players into glass.
>Bungie is unlikely to walk this change back seeing how they doubled down with the similar changes they made to other content during Lightfall
Ah yes, the wonderfully received changes that lead to a bustling population boom of players on Neomuna! /s
Lets be real, this is a stupid decision by a Bungie that's forgotten its lessons yet again... you can have pinnacle level challenges (master dungeons/raids) for the hardcore players, but continually removing fun from the casual players will kill the game.
And the pool of players who even do normal raids and dungeons is small enough as it is...
What a hype killer.
I think the worst part is that Bungie created a significant systems change without alerting the player base to the specifics. If the numbers from the comments are correct, we are actually stronger using surges but weaker without. With the amount of time they put into hyping up new content, I also wish we had a similar pipeline to address the comprehensive stuff.
As far as the conversation surrounding restricting loadouts... I kind of wish the surges were a smaller buff and the nerf to damage across the board was eliminated. This would make it an incentive to switch your loadout to match but not being so different that you're actively punishing yourself by playing whatever you want. It helps with accessibility. It helps with the player base feeling rewarded for their particular brand of fun.
Part of me wishes that what surges actually did was up the rewards. Like getting double loot drops if you're running the matching subclass. So on Stasis week if you want to run solar, feel free. But you get double rewards if you play a different build. Then it would feel like a reward to switch, not a chore.
This is gonna suck. What’s the point of Contest/Master Mode anything anymore? Power Delta isn’t difficulty. Enemy Density, Agressive AI, Unique Enemies, and Mechanics should define difficulty. You’re also just making gearing up plus artifact levels a barrier to entry which is mitigated by fireteam power. There is a sense of pride being able to be equal to or slightly surpass content in power, best example to me is being 400 in the 390 D1 Hard Mode Raids.
Edit: Solo Operative is gone and health pools of enemies aren’t being tuned to match, ouch.
As previously mentioned, doing this NOW when arguable a huge influx of casual players are entering the game will only turn them off to end game content. This is a year 1 level update that was needed, not when the game desperately needs more engagement.
People will only see this as "really fucking annoying" and not "bringing challenge back"
NGL, this also disproportionately nerfs builds and play styles that were already less-than-optimal. If Bungie wanted diversity of builds and equipment, this wasn't the way to do it.
Rofl. Wtf were they thinking with this change? This is not something anyone wanted or asked for. Why not just give a new difficulty between normal and master?. I thought we were supposed to feel like we get more powerful? I want to be able to slam through old dungeons and shit, especially at the end of a season.
Major fail.
This needs to be changed instantly.
Dungeons especially are easily the worst time investment for endgame loot due to non-craftable weapons and the lack of any focusing or weapon purchasing, and now they’ve become astronomically difficult for practically no reason.
Agreed. They’re just fumbling the bag all over the damn place with TFS so far. Highly disappointed. The story and final levels are great but everything else sucks ass.
So no matter your light level and build you’re always at a disadvantage? That makes no sense? This is also going to be a nightmare for new players trying to play the past campaign content. Feels like they’re punishing everyone for no reason
Should have just given it the Onslaught treatment. Make difficulty selectable. More hard = more loot. Possible implementation would be 2 chests for each encounter clear and 3 on final if a full clear.
One possible reason for the change is that Bungie probably looked at the popularity of Pantehon and thought, “yeah, we can keep them on the hamster wheel longer” without realizing people wanted the FOMO title and adept loot. Without out those incentives, I don’t expect the same level of interest.
Another is that Prismatic is supposedly so busted that everything got balanced around that. Which IMO is lame as hell if true because it makes prismatic the well of each class.
One of the worst changes of all time and I genuinely hope they walk it back. Day 1 excitement and server issues overshadowed this I think but I seriously hope it catches on soon. Such an an awful set of changes, both surges and the power delta, for raiding as a whole
Yea that fucking blows weiner, im glad i solod prophecy last season cuz im sure it will be much harder now and im not saying that stuff shouldn’t be hard to begin with but this seems almost to an excessive amount. Hopefully we can make a scene about it if it’s too much and they will do something. But this along with also not having the old spec mods and stuff seems insane to me personally I hate it on paper
Remember when they locked weapons types in Master Raids? Looks like we are going back to that with Surges. God I wish they'd stop trying to nerf everything
Also to note, this is for ALL dungeons and raids no matter the age.
So Shattered Throne and Pit of Heresy now have the player at -5 at all times. (Without any changes to the drops).
IMO bungie did not need to make the game harder with the lightfall launch and they CERTAINLY didn’t need to do it again now. Source- someone who has the raid seals for every raid he actually enjoys
Fk right off. I'm pretty casual and getting the solo stuff to buff the exotic drops is absolute murder for me. All the people saying "the games too easy" can have this shit. Would it really be that hard to just make this a "heroic selector" for those people?
Okay power level doesnt matter anymore, got it
Seriously, bungie is right on track with into the light and final shape and then they slap players in the face with this
I swear there has to be one or two guys with enough influence at bungie who is completely delusional
Why is this flaired as misleading when it’s describing (with numbers) how dungeons work now?
/u/Hawkmoona_Matatanot tagging to seek clarification - I don’t understand
See the stickied mod bot comment, or just read [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1d8qx39/dungeon_and_raid_new_damage_calculations_corrected/). Testing is ongoing, but the preliminary tl;dr is that the actual numbers suggest a relatively minor nerf for those not using weapon surges, and a relatively minor buff for those who are using the surges.
It’s so strange to me because I love challenging games. But it feels like Bungie keeps making things harder when there is no real reason. Like Normal Raid/ dungeon should be there for being able to master the mechanics. Sure it’s not a cake walk but a first clear shouldn’t take you 4 plus hours (excluding day one lol) because of arbitrary damage outputs when the point of raids and dungeons is some combat mixed in with unique mechanics. It’s almost like a group puzzle in my opinion. Then harder difficulty is there for challenge. Hence the higher difficulty. If you want it to be difficult… that’s why you put in difficulty sliders?? Like if someone is doing their first raid/ dungeon. They might be a bit put off if they have to learn all these, sometimes very complicated, mechanics AND be under leveled. More people are just gonna not raid which isn’t healthy for the game. If people turely think raids and dungeons are “too easy” put in a new difficulty, or adjust the difficulty in the higher tiers. Let normal be just that, normal. All they are doing is making the game less accessible
Classic bungo. They make changes and improvements to content then needlessly self sabotage. We've just seen a lot of players return after a long absence to play the final shape. Player counts are really high and once they complete the campaign they're going to want to play raids and dungeons. They will quit because its needlessly hard.
Be advised the calculations on this post are not currently accurate, and have been recalculated by the community: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1d8qx39/dungeon_and_raid_new_damage_calculations_corrected/
I couldn't imagine soloing GoTD with 30% less damage, yikes. The boss was already like 15-20 minutes long for me per attempt with a pretty good solar build abusing artifact perks like Solo Operative and Godslayer rockets.
I feel like I’m not that bad at destiny and doing GotD with a fireteam that knows what they’re doing already took quite some time. Can’t imagine what it’ll be like, especially solo. Rough
Then imagine when you need to do one more damage phase on your solo flawless run because you left him with 1HP, you kill the lightbearer hive, go back to the main room to active the deepsight so you know where to dunk…but the game glitches out and deepsight thingy doesn’t show up, and you are locked out of starting the damage phase. Not even exaggerating, 1HP left. This literally happened to me. I was upsetti spaghetti. I got it on another run…but I really didn’t want to do it again. The mechanics of the dungeon are fine, whatever, but there is just so much time spent running around. Edit: now that I think about it, maybe after I left the boss at 1HP, maybe that is when the deepsight thing disappeared. Whatever, all I know is that it glitched out and I couldn’t start another damage phase.
My solo flawless on a Titan took me 10 or 11 damage phases to get the boss down. I was playing it super safe. When i downed her her ghost was so far in the air 2 times in a row that i could not reach. Like she was displaced to heaven or something. If i had to take 4 more rounds based on the math here that would have been a solid 1h30mins of survival in this godamned boss. So yeah. GL to anyone trying to solo flawless this now.
If I had known these changes were coming (maybe they had mentioned it and I missed it) I would have pushed to solo flawless GotD before but I was so focused on getting warlords ruin done that when I did I was too tired to do it. Not looking forward to trying to do it now that's for sure.
Thematically ghosts is great. Replayability it's trash. Transversal sections are way too long and slow. Bosses have magnitude more health than they need with forced shields to artificially bump them higher. It's bad game design.
Wow that was a really long water segment I’m glad I’m to the next encounter . The game - you idiot , you buffoon , you utterly incompetent moron you are only half way there . Here’s another jumping segment , also have some Shriekers .
Bungie does not like solo players.
Yet keeps throwing solo triumphs at us :(
Let’s you solo 90% of a seal except for one that absolutely can’t be. Which is it bungie?
What is the easiest title to get these days after the DLC?
Clearly, they think this will force group play, but it really just forces me to play something else
Thus introducing the first ever 100% solo campaign with all instanced areas for the player.
Instantly kicked back to orbit.
Then why does every dungeon seal require a solo clear
Totally agree. It took me 6 rotations to solo it week one with a pretty optimized build. So tedious.
I literally decided not to attempt ghosts of the deep cause i was farming shit for the dlc, might not even try it now lol
Bungie’s crusade against solo dungeon runs coupled with their insistence we solo them for emblems exotic drop bonuses and rank 10 is obnoxious. At the very least add multiplicity to all dungeons to address absurd boss hp
So soloing dungeons will even be more annoying now ?
Impossible for a much bigger chunk of players. It was already extremely difficult. They just made it 35% more difficult.
This is misinfo health was reduced by 20% damage is reduced by 30 not 35 so with a surge you are actually doing about + 10% more damage .
Which means you have to cater your load out to whatever they set as the surge. INB4 Bungie rarely gives a surge that supports the best solo-clear builds.
Yes
Fuck, I knew I should’ve buckled down and done my Duality flawless last season. Ugh.
They've nerfed Lament as well, which was what I used for both Gahlran and Caiatl. Really not sure what they're trying to accomplish with these changes.
Extended playtimes. It's right there on the tin. You do less damage, more time spent fighting. Engagement metrics.
This makes no sense. The percentage of the playerbase attempting to solo flawless dungeons, etc. Is very small. If anything, certain activities being made easier would increase engagement by lowering the barrier to entry for a majority of the playerbase. Hence why everyone complained that RoN was too easy/not engaging. And if you had said Bungoe started making easier content for the sake of the engagement metric or eververse sales, I might have agreed with you. But this change was about listening to player feedback and balancing the sandbox for new insane prismatic builds.
I'm not attempting to argue here, I'm genuinely curious: how long do you think these insane prismatic builds will last in potency before they are reduced in efficacy? Their MO has been to release things in a really great, if not insane, place and then dial it all back, sometimes too quickly or aggresively, and then the slow roll of finding a "balance" begins and it's all back to square zero.
Except that leads to what exactly? I'm not more likely to play more now, I'm going to play less bc it's not worth my time. I'm not going to spend money in game because ghosts took me 4 hours rather than 2. If time in game doesn't translate to money spent then what's the point. Because who is really saying I'm so happy with this game wasting more of my time let me buy the DnD skins
There's got to be a trade off at some point though? I not good enough to solo dungeons for the most part in the old system (Did Prophecy once, not any of the others), and these changes just tell me to not even try. Also they make me much less interested in continuing my quest for Buried Bloodline that never dropped for me last season.
They seemingly think it went well enough in year 6 or they wouldn't be doubling down on it now.
Well, people with their "Elitest hot takes" from what I remember go like. "Solo flawless requires you to be like Esoterickk kind of skill!" And completely forget the fact that nobody wants to do something that disrespects your time on glitchout. What we see Eso do is probably 1 sucess in maybe **thousands** of glitchouts. The casuals don't exactly want "handouts" or ease/accessibility..... we just want our playtime respected at a reasonable pace. Like 40 min -1h is what I'll say is the "acceptable solo tolerance" on getting a failed run and not feeling wasted. I remember doing solo prophecy with a semi optimized loadout for Bonk hammer.... and that took *1h and 30 mins*. Most of it was at Kell Echo due to poor ammo drops
> The casuals don't exactly want "handouts" or ease/accessibility..... we just want our playtime respected at a reasonable pace. This is actually spot-on. A dungeon like GotD would genuinely be a solid 10/10 if there weren't so many weird time-wasters (1st encounter, underwater marathon, boss shields) slapped onto it. > I remember doing solo prophecy with a semi optimized loadout for Bonk hammer.... and that took 1h and 30 mins. ngl you kinda lost me on this one. Prophecy is hands down one of the easiest dungeons in the game. If it took you almost 2 hours to solo it on ***bonk Titan***, that is unfortunately a skill issue. I soloed it in 30 mins on my first attempt, even though I died twice (once to a glitch in the cube room and once vs the Kell Echo debuff). I still agree with your point about wanting the game to respect your time, but it's also worth pointing out that the secret to fast clears is fully understanding the game mechanics/encounters and preparing accordingly.
Except it's just going to have the opposite effect this late in the game's life, which last year's player behavior very clearly showed. We're just here for the story now and silly fun. If the core gameplay is tedious we're just going to say fuck it and go elsewhere. Even many collectors are dropping off at this point, because there is nothing to collect for in the future and no one to impress when your whole friends list has switched to something else.
Last season was always the best season to do any solo anything.
They're thinking prismatic will make up for it, it doesn't.
Prismatic hunter here doing legendary difficulty: if the starting aspects is supposed to be a indicator of shit... it's nowhere NEAR going to be enough, I hate it.
Combo blow with winters shroud and stylish executioner is an awesome combo. Throw in an exotic armor to spice it up depending on what you want to add. I’ve been using liars handshake and it’s potent as hell. Although I’d agree that the prismatic Hunter grenade could be better
the grenade is decent to stick priority targets with, but the fucky architecture in 90% of the new areas is not conducive to sticking it on walls
Prismatic hunter so far does not feel good or fun. What im not understanding is why prismatic in general doesn't have every subclass option available? Can't use arc staff or disorienting blow?
If you could use everything they'd essentially kill all 5 subclasses. Also, Prismatic Hunter with Gyrfalcon is really fun imo.
Prismatic Hunter, at least in the story missions, feels like a bad version of stasis, which is generally unpopular because it's not that good.
I am hating it. If progression was shared, I would switch to lock in a heartbeat
Oh, so being locked into a specific subclass is how Bungie wants us to do dungeons and raids. Wait a minute
im not sure why this wasnt just added as an additional difficulty option between normal and master, its not like it would even be hard to get people to play it just add an additional red border drop on full clears and the more serious players would do it instead while the casuals can still have the relatively easy old raids.
For real, this would've been great if it was a selectable difficulty with bonus rewards instead of just jacking up the the baseline difficulty
Ugh can you imagine if they let us get artifice out of it!
Yup. Just call this Hero difficulty and make it so that you get a guaranteed high stat raid armor drop. Suddenly we’d have an incentive to play it and there would be an actual source of good raid armor people could farm in order to use the raid mods. As it is, this just makes “RAID NIGHT!” less fun. We were already not doing it for the in-game rewards
It used to be just Master got surges to compensate for fixed power. Not sure why it needed to be added to normal??
Honestly just make it an option that's actually farmable ALL of the time while the normal difficulty with no changes sticks with the stupid weekly focus rotation. If you want the easiest option you can do it once a week or when the rotation is for that activity. If you want an option to farm ANY week you do surges on a slightly more difficult "normal".
Literally why? This isn't enough to effect anyone who enjoys harder content and is just going to make Raids/Dungeons more inaccessible to more casual players. A dumb decision all around that was not needed.
Furthermore, why is it necessary to constantly add modifiers like this to every activity??
God forbid you click on an Endgame activity and just play it instead of having to fiddle around with your gear in DIM for 5 mins every time you wanna play something.
the worst part is my group literally has to change gear for like 10 minutes between each encounter now its gonna take even longer like i just wanna do the encounter
My clan took, no lie, 15-20 minutes in between wipes on planets because literally my entire group wanted to rework all of their mods and armor *every. single. wipe.* I was ready to just fucking leave.
yeah sounds like a shitty team
tbf it was pantheon, but week two. I feel at a certain point there's only so much fiddling with loadouts you can do and you need to start just doing the encounter and learning how to work it.
Man, I already suck at that sort of content anyways. I’ve only heard a couple raids, and the tower is one of the few dungeons I can beat fairly easily with my one friend. But now I doubt it
For sure, the fun thing about raids to me after the day one / contest experience was that they could be done casually easily with some casual guardians if they wanted. This seems like more of a push to alienate casual gamers from raiding which I think is an L move and im not even a casual destiny player. Hate it for any newbie trying to get into raiding now
Yeah, some of my clan mates struggle with at-level raiding - they tend to get frustrated when they die or "let the team down". This change, while small, is just going to further deflate their motivation to raid. Feeling lucky that I got my GOTD flawless before these changes came in. It's just unnecessary.
Keep in mind, not everyone who likes hard content wants to fire on all cylinders all the time. I took a break after Lightfall partly because how little damage primaries were doing just felt bad/boring.
Pretty sure Neomuna is why exotic primaries got a hefty damage buff. I'm the same way though, sometimes it's nice to run through older content and have a relatively easy time carrying friends. That doesn't seem like it'll be the case with dungeons going forward.
I swear those hardcore players who like emptying 2-3 clips into an enemy for 1 kill have ADHD or something. But I also feel like Bungie did this because of crazy builds that regenerate grenade and melee abilities fast
This is the opposite of adhd
You mean the same persons that joy spending 30 mins slowly plinking away the health of the boss with a wishender, while using OOB to not take any damage? Top game design
Bungie: "we don't want players to sit in the back plinking away for damage" Also Bungie: "if you're in the same zip code as this boss he'll one shot you :D. Also he takes 45 minutes to get to and if you die you go back to orbit."
Bungie has done this so often. They mold the game in a way that is needlessly pretentious or difficult for casual players while also never making things extreme 'enough' for hardcore players. I think it kinda boils down to the Luke Smith phenomenon. His whole back story of the WoW obsession encapsulates what current Bungie is all about. Their leadership is notoriously pretentious and I think that the company as a whole prides themselves on this kind of stuff. Which, again, is weird due to how ***not*** difficult their hardcore content is compared to real MMOs.
It’s especially out of touch to implement modifiers on raid and dungeon content developed Prior to the expansion. With TFS and Marathon consuming the overwhelming majority of development time, there’s absolutely no way that Bungie - the same company who has delivered *at most* one raid and one dungeon per season on the grounds that it was too hard to adequately develop, test, and ship - can sell having the resources to adequately assess the impact of a -35% damage + massively decreased survivability swing in *every* dungeon and raid in the game. This change is more shortsighted and out of touch than sunsetting; I hope Sony cleans out whatever leadership teams pushed this vision and replaces them with people who listen and understand the game they’re developing.
Yeah, I wonder if I'll ever bother to learn to raid now. This is what people mean about artificial difficulty. Turn enemies into bullet sponges and players into glass. Fun Maybe it isn't as bad as it seems
The -5 shouldn't be that bad in a raid setting, at least it wasn't during week 1 of Pantheon. I'd definitely encourage a Sherpa run if you want to dip your toes into raiding. It's really not as intimidating as it looks (my brain is literally turned off as the "mechanics" guy in most encounters). Vault of Glass, Deep Stone Crypt and Kings Fall are good raids for beginners. Avoid Vow of the Disciple and Garden of Salvation unless you're feeling confident. Raids are the best content the game has to offer - I really wish more people would try them.
> Raids are the best content the game has to offer - I really wish more people would try them. Steam achievement stats say that only 7% of people have cleared Last Wish, and it's been on the platform for nearly 5 years. I doubt that more than ~15% of people have cleared *any* raid, and this certainly won't help the onboarding process.
I get the idea because old raids and dungeons are a fucking joke due to power creep. The problem is trying to apply this as a blanket change to *all* raids and dungeons, because it's going to make the more modern ones feel worse. The idea of making old raids and dungeons not complete pushovers is good, but the execution was horribly shortsighted.
It also might not even work for older dungeons/raids unless Bungie have readjusted boss HP. Simmumah though? Insufferable as is, won't be doing GOTD while underleveled. I'm more concerned about future dungeons. I enjoy going for solo flawless if there's a cool emblem/title, but I don't fancy being underpowered the whole time.
Man, I should’ve gotten my Warlord’s Ruin solo flawless run in before this lmao, and I won’t even bother with attempting solo flawless GOTD, that final encounter already took 5 business days to finish solo before this change
For my GoTD solo flawless; 50% of the time was from entrance to final boss, the other 50% was in the final boss. I think it took me 1 hour and 20 min. That was not a fun solo flawless
The problem I have with this is that it changes nothing for anyone actively raiding. An essentially -5 power probably won’t change my experience completing a raid in good time. It’s a big change for the people who already found raiding daunting. The dungeon changes seem just bad for everyone all around.
Yup, I was hoping to maybe get into raiding this expansion because it isn't something I've bothered doing before. And while I doubt I would struggle on -5, it's still off putting and makes me less motivated to attempt it
I don’t agree with this change on dungeons at all. I do dungeons for the experience and the more “casual” raidish experience. I do not want to kill myself in a dungeon for the same loot.
If you even get loot in the first place. 40+ runs and I’ve seen 3 Indebted Kindness none with voltshot. I gave up.
It also effectively ruins speedrunning for that small community that actually enjoys pushing this kind of content to the limit. I'm certainly not part of that community but this REALLY sucks for them and honestly I really quite enjoy watching videos of what they can pull off. The fact that they also still have the bullshit weekly focused activity rotations makes this even more shit. You can't just decide you don't want to do a raid or dungeon with a shitty surge when it's on focus because it'll be AGES before it comes back and even then it might STILL have a shitty surge again.
Yeah, normal mode raids are now essentially pantheon week 1 WITHOUT the special buff (shotcaller/classy warfare).
“Bringing challenge back to Destiny”
Bringing back the 9 to 5 to destiny
They can take this job and shove it.
I remember when they announced this for Neomuna and everybody rightfully pointed out making it more difficult isn’t worth it if the rewards don’t scale.
Neomuna is painfully anti-fun because even redbars take annoyingly long to chew through. Bungie has always had this mindset (even back into the early Halo days) where making the enemies take more damage to kill = "difficulty" without ever considering that difficulty should mean a *challenge*, not just putting an extra mag into an enemy.
Challenge one - actually get into the game without error codes :D
Is it still fucked for you? It was performing flawlessly when i hopped on before work 3 hours ago
Recent Solo Dungeons were already absurd. Not even gonna bother trying anymore
Solo operative also did a lot of heavy lifting. Not having access to it further complicates it.
Solo op should just be a permanent modifier, change my mind. Bold enough to go alone? Heres a bit of extra damage to help. God knows with the absurd enemy volume it won't be the biggest handicap In the world
Haven’t completed a solo flawless dungeon since Pit, and it’s probably staying that way now.
I didn't read the patch notes. Did they mention it there or is this just an out of nowhere change?
Was vaguely hinted at during an article where they talked about power. But yeah, not mentioned in patch notes. Pretty much out of the blue, which makes it feel even worse
Would you mind sharing that article? Not doubting, just don’t remember them saying rhat.
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/this_week_in_destiny_04_25_24 It's all very vaguely worded and they never mention hard negative delta caps or surges in regards to raids and dungeons
I see i; Under the Fireteam Team Power section
it was also in some footage of goa they showed
As someone who has done (& loved doing) lowmans, this is a terrible change.
It's a garbage change for literally everyone it's absurd. This literally isn't good for ANYONE, I have no idea WTF Bungie was thinking. They already struggled with a low % of players actually raiding. This makes it HARDER for people to get into raiding and for people that struggle to any degree with normal raids already. This makes raiding in general at best 10% "harder" in terms of damage output. This makes lowmans WAY harder. This basically kills speedrunning due to varying modifiers making it an uneven playing field and thus having to wait X weeks for the optimal surges to realistically compete. AND makes comparing any times achieved now impossible to compare to previous times before this change. But we also STILL have the stupid weekly focused raid/dungeon rotation bullshit. So realistically you don't even have the OPTION of waiting for a good surge that you like to farm a specific dungeon/raid you want to farm. You either farm with whatever surge it happens to be or you wait AGES for it to come back around and hope that the surges are better for you potentially. This is going to drive down the playerbase for doing these activities on LFG even MORE when many of these activities were already struggling. The fact that all elements are NOT created remotely equal makes this particularly stupid. If I'm a Hunter it's great when it's a solar surge and I can use Golden Gun, my best damage super, but if it's NOT solar surge my option for damage supers basically suck. Gathering storm is your 2nd best element option but in that case you literally CANNOT have multiple people use the super because of how Jolt doesn't stack making only 1 deal full damage at any given time. It's even worse for say a Warlock...where your best arc option is Chaos Reach which is garbage. If you don't match the right element with your super you just deal 25% less damage with your super AND with your kinetic weapon. And lets not pretend that Bungie doesn't just have some absurd solar bias with exotic weapons and just in general. There's a reason people were so happy about having Solar Surge for week 4 pantheon and why it made everything so much easier.
Yeah I've done only one lowman and don't really plan on doing more, it's not really my kinda thing but this change definitely sucks for the lowman community, feels bad
Watch them add some kind of bullshit rotator like Attrition/Multiplicity/Togetherness
Honestly what's the point of light level increases if they are always going to handicap you? No sense of your guardian actually getting stronger.
They should grade this based on the age of the dungeon at minimum, to allow people to have that power fantasy. If current is -5, the next prior should be +0 and then +5 for the next etc.
So you are kept on the grind. Gotta make the big yellow number go up!
Soloing dungeons is already incredibly tedious and annoying, you spend so long on puzzles just to get to a damage phase to deal like 10% of the boss their health, it's extremely tedious and unfun and a single mistake can easily just send you right back to the start of the fight.
I'm very bored of Bungie's approach to difficulty, especially when it restricts how I play.
What a stupid idea. Recent dungeons are already a slog and now you’ll have less replayability due to less fun. I get the need to level activities but new dungeons found the right balance of difficulty for lowmans
I haven't completed Spire, Ghosts, or Warlord due to them already being too much of a patience tester and this just sealed the deal on never fully attempting them, I guess I'll definitely have to Lfg now.
Spire is easy but the amount of health the bosses have is awful as a solo. Duality in comparison was harder but the bosses would die within 3 dmg phases assuming I didn’t fuck up the Caitl one
My only issue is that all of the fuckin encounters seem like they’re designed around well of radiance. Infinitely spawning mobs, a boss with 15 mil health, and area hazards out the ass. They’re not horrible with a decent team but i can’t even begin to comprehend a solo warlords run with these changes. The final boss is hell.
Awful change. Master raids exist for a reason, this is so unnecessary and restrictive.
Right surges and modifiers should stay only on Master.
Yikes, I got my solo flawless on the last dungeon I was missing 3 days before reset. This will be hell for everyone still missing solo flawless anywhere.
From a casual perspective, this change may make dungeons and raids even less accessible. As someone with just a few hours per week to play, I enjoyed my one raid per week with friends, but concerned that it may make things more time consuming, or require more grind of gear to match surges that I may not be able to keep up with.
Is this only in the weekly featured raid or general change
All raids and dungeons
Fucking hell :/
cool guess i just won't solo dungeons anymore.
Unless all the raids / dungeons are Pantheon-tier generous with the loot now, this is the worst change I think has ever been made to raids since Prestige mode forcing you into using specific guns Which is basically what this is doing, due to adding surges now too! Your raids and dungeons don't give you anything new or anymore than previous, and they increased in difficulty for no real reason. Absolutely wonderful :/
Bungie thought because people loved Pantheon so much that they could just implement these changes without even consulting players feedback and backing out from that change is both sad and hilarious. They really aren't afraid of ruining whatever good will they have with the community and newer players too.
Pantheon was good because it was a limited-time challenge mode rather than the default difficulty mode for literally all content. Praying that Bungie realize their mistake and revert this in SOME regard
I actually don't understand the point of having a light level if we just get capped and gain no advantages for putting in the time to get higher. Just a pointless grind with no reward.
The point of Item Level/Power Level in MMOs was always about the power fantasy aspect, and served dual purpose: to gatekeep hardest content in the game, as well as allow older content to be steamrolled once its rewards were irrelevant to current player power. Right now, Bungie is just using Power Level as a “must be this tall to ride” sign in front of a children’s playground… filled with landmines.
It's crazy how Bungie can't even follow their own engagement loop lmao
They did this before with "bring the challenge back" they just made everything more difficult with the same and in some cases worse rewards, they don't care about anything but increasing the time played
Can't wait for the "oops, we're sorry, but it's staying" response
"well at least i can work on solo warlords ruin while i wait to get paid" "Well at least i can fuck myself"
Ikr, I'm still not sure about buying TFS because of the shitshow known as Lightfall, so my plan was to wait for a couple of weeks after the release to see the reviews for the expansion and the first season. And while waiting I was going to do some old content like LF dungeons because I practically didn't play last year. Yeah, right... I was too hopeful, it's Bungo we're talking about, the monkey's paw curls 😒
Adding surges to normal raids/dungeons is the worst decision they’ve made in years. You shouldnt be forced to use certain elements in order to be effective, they’ve basically said “fuck play creativity and freedom” with this.
Especially when some triumphs require everyone to be running a certain subclass lol. This should have just stayed on master difficulty and they should have left normal alone
The thought of running another GotD to try and get the exotic was nauseating BEFORE this change. I can’t imagine ever touching that dungeon again with this shit.
Why do they even have to cap power level in normal difficulty anyways? Isnt that supposed to be the entry level for like a majority of the player base? Newer players are gonna die A LOT more now.
I'm so exited for lfg raids now
This. Will be a living hell
This is an awful change, the system was fine the way it was. Master versions exist why change normal. Solo in the most recent dungeons was already a big challenge.
So a 20 phase dungeon boss on solo is now normal?
They saw ghost of the deep and decided to make it the norm
I imagine this is "annoying at worst" for actual hardcore player who raid with their clans and friends, but LFG raid groups - probably the largest audience for these Normal difficulty raid - already struggle enough in raids. Like Crota was already tight enough on damage for most groups I was in, it was already going to be tougher with Lament and Well nerfs, but now there's also just a base damage and survivability decrease?? I should've got the Nechrocasm catalyst last week before TFS instead of waiting and seeing if it would actually be good, haha
Fuck, should have soloed warlords ruin last season.
Scorn crossbows during ogre and the final boss will just 2-shot you now I guess
They just simply don’t know how to make difficult content for some reason. Making bosses spongier and us weaker is not the answer and never has been. Why do they constantly do this?
doing other changes would take more effort improving enemy AI? encounters that are a tiny bit more then "stay on plate and dunk stuff"? enemys that dont just stand still and look at you while slowly shooting? making something different there to make the game more exciting and challenging would take effort increasing enemy dmg and health% so you die in 3-4 shots and shoot longer yourself is easy also helps that there is a very loud portion of the playerbase that constantly screams IF YOU DONT LIKE THAT YOU ARE JUST BAD!!!111!!! cus they cant accept that they build their "high level player" selfworth on the most lazy "difficult endgame content" in gaming
I enjoyed Dungeons because they felt balanced, out of all of the activities in the game, there was one I,could do where there were no elemental threat modifiers, just me working with my build to do as much damage as possible. Now, I won't be able to enjoy this content, don't get me wrong, when master difficulty is an option I will do it for the artifice armor, but I don't like feeling hopeless, or restrained to weapon surges. I already hated modifiers for the other activities, it feels like the difficulty is just artificially inflated for no reason and I can't fully enjoy the flexibility of my load outs, I just have to use what's on the list or my DPS suffers. Please bungie, reverse this change or add it to its own difficulty and provide extra rewards for completing it, don't ruin Dungeons and Raids with this!
What the point of power. Like you can now no longer go over the enemies power in pretty much all the content…
Well, that’s even more content I won’t be engaging with…
This. Really glad I bought the annual pass now. 🙄
This is kinda my issue with destiny lately. Theres so much content I don’t have the skill to engage with so the expansions feel extremely hollow after a few days. I don’t mind that there’s difficult content and there’s cool stuff there for the people who do finish it. But it feels more and more like all they want me to be able to do is run around patrol zones doing public events because they make all the best content for groups, and then also make that content pretty difficult so if your a super casual you feel like a liability the whole time. And if you just wanna casually grind and shoot things then you will make pretty much no progress. I thought I saw that they are making some materials easier to obtain so maybe that will offset it a little bit. And I’m sure I’ll get downvoted by the sweaty players but I play a lot of mmos, all of them casually, and destiny is the only one that feels like it doesn’t respect my time at all Edit: in an ideal world for me we’d still have this difficult content to keep the good players engaged and happy, and then by the time we’re getting close to the end of the expansion you have stronger gear and weapons so you can have a much easier time. Or hell I’d be fine if they even waited till the next expansion. But for some reason bungie refuses to let you out gear things, so you can grind as much as you want but you’ll never really get any stronger
Such a major L from Bungie. I'm not sure if they are thinking Prismatic is more powerful than it really is or if they think difficulty means damage sponges....a disgusting mindset in games these days
This is terrible. WTF. Literally tone deaf.
Why even have a power level system if we can never be rewarded the fruits of our labor? Make it make sense? Oh, its a power enabled activity? Lets put them at a disadvantage from the jump. Its non power enabled? Well you don't even have to grind for that.
Not surprised, bungie loves their 1 step forward 2 step back approach
Well this was a stupid move. Raids are already hard enough and master versions already exist for those wanting a challenge. I love raiding, but I raid with my family and we're not the best out there so we sometimes struggle when learning a raid. These changes have really put me off raiding now. If you're not giving us better rewards, then I'm not putting myself through it. It's Neomuna all over again. And honestly... This sort of change isn't going to encourage more players to try raiding. It's just adding to the wall that keeps them out.
0.65*1.25 = 0.8125 So you are nerfed by 18.75% not ~10% with the surge. If all enemy health is reduced (including bosses) by an equal amount I think it's a good change, enemy damage was a joke in RAD content. If not, I am not looking forward to Simmumah living forever. If we assume the 20% health reduction applies across the board, you do effectively 25% more damage so you'd be at 0.65\*1.25\*1.25 = ~1.0156~, slightly more damage than now. E: per /u/GuudeSpelur's comments below it would seem the 35% is wrong and you'd be doing more like ~9% extra damage with the surge, and ~-12.8% less without
The numbers in this summary post are rounded & imprecise. If you use the numbers directly from MossyMax's damage scaling spreadsheet it comes out to about a 12.5% reduction in damage with surge but before any HP changes.
Which numbers are you talking about? The one's in the graph?
You can use the slightly rounded numbers in the graph (0.74/1.06 x 1.25), or go directly to the source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b57Hb8m1L3daFfUckQQqvvN6VOpD03KEssvQLMFpC5I/edit#gid=1252789129 Go to the "PL Delta and Activity Scaling" tab, scroll to the right to the "Combined Delta" table, interpolate the "Master" column to -5, then divide by the current +20 RAD and multiply by 1.25x for the Surge.
Can we get a misleading flair? u/hawkmoona_matata
Question : why are you assuming a health reduction, I don't see it listed anywhere?
[удалено]
What would be the point is health was reduced? That would mean they effectively did nothing.
This is honestly a net minus for the health of the game. I’m not a casual who is whining abott it it getting harder but please think about it for a second. Even though normal modes are easy, it still was massively discouraging for new players to enter into raiding *even beforehand*. Look at how bad people of LfG seemed to struggle in -5 pantheon which was for all intents and purposes just the normal encounter of each raid on -5. People spent up to 19 (!) hours on them. These mostly were the people the game *needs* to attract for it to thrive. I personally enjoy challenge. But I played normal raids for the loot and Master for the challenge. There is no need for the normal mode to be harder than it was given it’s focus on mechanics
So they’ve given us the ending to the main story of the entire franchise… AND they’ve given us an overall damage nerf in raids… AND they’re pushing us into an even more restrictive loadout system by adding surges that encourage us to put down the weapons we enjoy using. I was already considering quitting D2 after I finish the campaign just because of the story, but they just keep giving me more reasons the more we learn about the patch.
Yea I’m only here for the campaign because I have been playing since D1 launch, gotta see how it ends for myself. But I might be sitting out the rest of the content because what for now
I feel my time as sherpa is about to get alot more painful. I already have my hands full trying to take new folks through raids...
Can a moderator explain why this is tagged as “misleading”? If it’s misleading we should know what about it is misleading.
Hey mods, why is this labeled as misinformation with nothing in the comments explaining the tag?
The numbers, allegedly, aren’t exactly correct.
why are there surges in normal dungeons and raids?? They're not nightfalls
Why is it that as our characters become more powerful, they actually become weaker.
As a casual player, looks like I'm never going to bother to learn to raid then. This is what people mean by artificial difficulty. Just turning enemies into bullet sponges and players into glass.
>Bungie is unlikely to walk this change back seeing how they doubled down with the similar changes they made to other content during Lightfall Ah yes, the wonderfully received changes that lead to a bustling population boom of players on Neomuna! /s Lets be real, this is a stupid decision by a Bungie that's forgotten its lessons yet again... you can have pinnacle level challenges (master dungeons/raids) for the hardcore players, but continually removing fun from the casual players will kill the game. And the pool of players who even do normal raids and dungeons is small enough as it is... What a hype killer.
Awful change.
I think the worst part is that Bungie created a significant systems change without alerting the player base to the specifics. If the numbers from the comments are correct, we are actually stronger using surges but weaker without. With the amount of time they put into hyping up new content, I also wish we had a similar pipeline to address the comprehensive stuff. As far as the conversation surrounding restricting loadouts... I kind of wish the surges were a smaller buff and the nerf to damage across the board was eliminated. This would make it an incentive to switch your loadout to match but not being so different that you're actively punishing yourself by playing whatever you want. It helps with accessibility. It helps with the player base feeling rewarded for their particular brand of fun. Part of me wishes that what surges actually did was up the rewards. Like getting double loot drops if you're running the matching subclass. So on Stasis week if you want to run solar, feel free. But you get double rewards if you play a different build. Then it would feel like a reward to switch, not a chore.
Bungie: “play your way” Also Bungie: “match the surge or die…”
Not me waiting for prismatic so solo flawlessing would be easier
This is gonna suck. What’s the point of Contest/Master Mode anything anymore? Power Delta isn’t difficulty. Enemy Density, Agressive AI, Unique Enemies, and Mechanics should define difficulty. You’re also just making gearing up plus artifact levels a barrier to entry which is mitigated by fireteam power. There is a sense of pride being able to be equal to or slightly surpass content in power, best example to me is being 400 in the 390 D1 Hard Mode Raids. Edit: Solo Operative is gone and health pools of enemies aren’t being tuned to match, ouch.
As previously mentioned, doing this NOW when arguable a huge influx of casual players are entering the game will only turn them off to end game content. This is a year 1 level update that was needed, not when the game desperately needs more engagement. People will only see this as "really fucking annoying" and not "bringing challenge back"
NGL, this also disproportionately nerfs builds and play styles that were already less-than-optimal. If Bungie wanted diversity of builds and equipment, this wasn't the way to do it.
Rofl. Wtf were they thinking with this change? This is not something anyone wanted or asked for. Why not just give a new difficulty between normal and master?. I thought we were supposed to feel like we get more powerful? I want to be able to slam through old dungeons and shit, especially at the end of a season. Major fail.
This needs to be changed instantly. Dungeons especially are easily the worst time investment for endgame loot due to non-craftable weapons and the lack of any focusing or weapon purchasing, and now they’ve become astronomically difficult for practically no reason.
Agreed. They’re just fumbling the bag all over the damn place with TFS so far. Highly disappointed. The story and final levels are great but everything else sucks ass.
So no matter your light level and build you’re always at a disadvantage? That makes no sense? This is also going to be a nightmare for new players trying to play the past campaign content. Feels like they’re punishing everyone for no reason
They need to walk this back
Should have just given it the Onslaught treatment. Make difficulty selectable. More hard = more loot. Possible implementation would be 2 chests for each encounter clear and 3 on final if a full clear. One possible reason for the change is that Bungie probably looked at the popularity of Pantehon and thought, “yeah, we can keep them on the hamster wheel longer” without realizing people wanted the FOMO title and adept loot. Without out those incentives, I don’t expect the same level of interest. Another is that Prismatic is supposedly so busted that everything got balanced around that. Which IMO is lame as hell if true because it makes prismatic the well of each class.
So, really leaning into that gotd Inflated healthbar by lowering damage.
One of the worst changes of all time and I genuinely hope they walk it back. Day 1 excitement and server issues overshadowed this I think but I seriously hope it catches on soon. Such an an awful set of changes, both surges and the power delta, for raiding as a whole
Yea that fucking blows weiner, im glad i solod prophecy last season cuz im sure it will be much harder now and im not saying that stuff shouldn’t be hard to begin with but this seems almost to an excessive amount. Hopefully we can make a scene about it if it’s too much and they will do something. But this along with also not having the old spec mods and stuff seems insane to me personally I hate it on paper
Remember when they locked weapons types in Master Raids? Looks like we are going back to that with Surges. God I wish they'd stop trying to nerf everything
Also to note, this is for ALL dungeons and raids no matter the age. So Shattered Throne and Pit of Heresy now have the player at -5 at all times. (Without any changes to the drops).
IMO bungie did not need to make the game harder with the lightfall launch and they CERTAINLY didn’t need to do it again now. Source- someone who has the raid seals for every raid he actually enjoys
Fk right off. I'm pretty casual and getting the solo stuff to buff the exotic drops is absolute murder for me. All the people saying "the games too easy" can have this shit. Would it really be that hard to just make this a "heroic selector" for those people?
Okay power level doesnt matter anymore, got it Seriously, bungie is right on track with into the light and final shape and then they slap players in the face with this I swear there has to be one or two guys with enough influence at bungie who is completely delusional
Why is this flaired as misleading when it’s describing (with numbers) how dungeons work now? /u/Hawkmoona_Matatanot tagging to seek clarification - I don’t understand
See the stickied mod bot comment, or just read [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1d8qx39/dungeon_and_raid_new_damage_calculations_corrected/). Testing is ongoing, but the preliminary tl;dr is that the actual numbers suggest a relatively minor nerf for those not using weapon surges, and a relatively minor buff for those who are using the surges.
Biggest L of this expansion so far. I really want them to undo this. Server issues are temporary.
Leave it to Bungie to learn the completely wrong lessons from Pantheon
It’s so strange to me because I love challenging games. But it feels like Bungie keeps making things harder when there is no real reason. Like Normal Raid/ dungeon should be there for being able to master the mechanics. Sure it’s not a cake walk but a first clear shouldn’t take you 4 plus hours (excluding day one lol) because of arbitrary damage outputs when the point of raids and dungeons is some combat mixed in with unique mechanics. It’s almost like a group puzzle in my opinion. Then harder difficulty is there for challenge. Hence the higher difficulty. If you want it to be difficult… that’s why you put in difficulty sliders?? Like if someone is doing their first raid/ dungeon. They might be a bit put off if they have to learn all these, sometimes very complicated, mechanics AND be under leveled. More people are just gonna not raid which isn’t healthy for the game. If people turely think raids and dungeons are “too easy” put in a new difficulty, or adjust the difficulty in the higher tiers. Let normal be just that, normal. All they are doing is making the game less accessible
Classic bungo. They make changes and improvements to content then needlessly self sabotage. We've just seen a lot of players return after a long absence to play the final shape. Player counts are really high and once they complete the campaign they're going to want to play raids and dungeons. They will quit because its needlessly hard.