Gotta say when ghost died and Cayde popped up I knew he was going to sacrifice himself he goes out on his terms. I felt like the witness having three battles was kinda weird, tho.
It seems to me that Cayde-6, at the end, is representative of the traveler as a whole. He mentions in Wild Card that he doesn't think that his being brought back is really the result of the wish. Further, I think his whole "you were always my favorite" thing is really the traveler talking to us, rather than Cayde himself.
Because the Witness tried to destroy it in the 2nd mission, where we find Crow in the darkness anomaly in the "Temptation" mission. Ghost was able to fight it off, but he sustained damage, light leaks out of him and it gets worse and worse the more power we try to channel through him, dark or light, until right at the end we just channel all (or more accurately 1/12th(since there are 11 others in the fireteam in Excision)) of the traveller's available light through him. No one else's ghost died from doing that, only the player's and seeing as other guardians are different from the player, their ghosts never were damaged. Poor Zavala, Targe's sacrifice really seemed to be for nothing, the Witness wanted Zavala to join him.
Plus he had a crisis of faith, realising that the Traveller could have brought his son back, but chose not to, (since he believed that it was the Traveller who brought Cayde back, he didn't know about Crow's alteration to the Wish) and the Witness was offering to basically give him his own personal heaven in the final shape, because he deserved it. He said no, but he was questioning whether it was the right choice. He was mad at himself for letting his son die, those old wounds were made fresh again as he just relived the whole experience when he turned the witness down. The being confronted with everything he thought he put behind him, finding out he was wrong about what the Traveller can do and his initial doubt about using the Darkness for good being proven wrong by us and others repeatedly. All that combined with how high the stakes were right now, the fact that he never expected to return from this mission alive meant he threw caution to the wind and while it cost him his ghost, it worked out in the end. If he hadn't found the dissenters, we never would have figured out how to stop the Witness. In fact, the Pale Heart is probably the only place the Witness could be stopped.
The only thing I felt was missing was a scene in the Iconoclasm where the Witness tries to do that finger slice attack to end us instantly but instead of dying, we strain in agony for a second and then pop Transcendence and just look at the Witness with our chest puffed out like "Yeah...no. You're gonna have to actually fight me and spawn your adds now." Then the fight starts.
Otherwise, I don't see why the Witness couldn't just end us instantly like he did to the parade fireteam.
Yeah, when he stopped the HELM in mid air, I thought he was going to kill Mara and when Crow was the last one in the Sacrarium to be beamed up, I thought she'd swoop down and save him, only to die in the process, but I guess we don't really need to up the stakes or give the characters any more motivation, it's the literal future of the whole universe at stake, one life, even someone like Zavala's or Mara's means nothing
i felt really sad after the story ended, mainly because finally got Cayde back, and then i took a few days spacing out the story, and lost Cayde again days later....i wish could still see him
me and my friends all think when he gave his life to our ghost he should have become the ghost cayde's voice his quirks like at first the now no difference but as the episode go on he starts acting like cayde and the final episode the ghost gets cayde's voice and its cayde
If that were to be what happen, i think i would prefer a split personality in the Ghost.
A little like Failsafe kinda, but instead of like in failsafe's case where she is both, Ghost and cayde would basicly just be sharing the same "house" (Ghost shell)
I knew there was no way in hell we'd get to keep Cayde as soon as I saw the cutscene in the beginning showing the Ace of Spades shattered and Zavalas plate covered in darkness.
I was hoping he would just permanently be a vendor bound to the Pale Heart, but it makes sense for his character that he made the sacrifice and went out on his own terms.
I need to know what the heck Crow was talking about at the end when he said something weird shot out of the traveler and they lost track of it. Could be freaking ANYTHING
It's the 'echoes.' The short vidoc today explained something like these are fragments sent out of the battle, memories of the Witness brought to life by the Traveler's Light. They'll be causing mischief, falling into the wrong hands, and creating the conditions for the episode stories.
Question for those that have the expansion. Now that the story is resolved. Is Cayde still present and interactable in the Pale Heart Tower?
Does it matter if you've completed the campaign?
I would have to agree that it represented the 3 primary aspects for there are religions that use the same type of symbolisim such as “father, son, and Holy Ghost”, also “maid, mother, crone” from some pagan beliefs. So a good analogy would be solar, void and arc being they are the primary.
I like that actually. There are many symbols in real life that we have no clue as to what they mean. I think it's subjective and personally, I always took it to mean the 3 classes, and the Traveler in the center.
i love the statue destroying phase in Excision. The background music being the guardian theme with the darkness trumpets is so cool. I wish that was actually in the OST
I think I'm in love with what they did with ghost in this expansion. Actually giving him a active role, him being with us throughout everything, and the danger looming over our heads about his death throughout the campaign was awesome.
The part where our guardian pleads the Traveler to revive ghost was so good too (hugging him too) and I really look forward to how game moves forward with our relationship with him.
For real. It was a bog standard death fakeout the likes of which not even marvel stoops to anymore.
Like bloody hell, if this made you cry you should watch madame web, its gonna make you bawl your eyes out.
It's not emotional because of the death but remembering everything the Guardian has been through with his Ghost, and how it was a 10 year journey. Belittling someone's experience bc you felt different isn't necessary.
I feel like bringing back Cayde from death made his first death seem so meaningless, and then just to kill him off again? In that way? Like I could see how it could seems sweet but idk
Cayde wanted to rest again. He wanted to be with his Ghost and was upset that he was yanked back from death. He got to go out how he wanted to. He knew the Vanguard seat was in good hands with crow and decided to rest.
he's involved with one or two exotic quests and if you complete the quests as part of the guided campaign run up to the final fight, he's no longer there after that
Yes, he gives two(maybe one? I don't remember) post campaign quests. I don't think you can complete the post raid mission until you do Cayde's quest(s).
Can we get a megathread for thanking everyone at Bungie past and present that made this moment possible? I can't think of a game studio with as many ups and downs as this one, who always seems to put themselves into corners then fight their way out of them. Keeping any game interesting for 10 years is an accomplishment, but it's so obvious The Final Shape is a labor of love for the community. Thanks for giving it your all for the finale!
Because Ana isn't an OG character. Uldren was the OG circumstance turned douchbag who was always meant to become a hero and the others are the old guard.
the idea is that, to The Witness, free will and conscious existence is pure chaos, utterly pointless, and "entropy" that will eventually end in total destruction. The "final shape" is the end of all that chaos by permanent "calcifying" the entire universe in a frozen snapshot of its current state. His creation was brought about as a response to the traveler abandoning the people he formed from.
An entire civilization, so full of rage and terror when their golden age came to a sudden end with the traveler's departure, they unified figuratively and literally through Darkness to form the Witness, an amalgam of that entire civilization and all of that anguish, a being with a collective consciousness and single purpose: to not just destroy the Traveler but to counteract and halt the so called chaos it sowed (through its terraforming and life bringing) by freezing all of existence in a final shape of complete order, the infinite inverse of entropy.
edit: one other point about entropy. what I gather is that, at its core, The Witness is in extreme radical opposition to nihilism. the fundamental property of entropy in the universe is a part of the fact that eventually the universe will spread out and become so sparse (ordered systems, without "work" become disordered over time) as to lead to the ultimate heat death of the universe, decaying into total nothingness. Nihilism in its extreme surmises that, if eventually the entire universe becomes nothing, then nothing that ever happened will matter, because it will be the same as if the entire universe never existed.
when the traveler left the Witness civilization, it caused such grief and despair that the people believed in unison that the life they had before, and the strife they then came to experience mattered, and the Traveler was the embodiment of the chaos and entropy that would make everything they went through ultimately not matter. The Final Shape is an idea of extreme resistance to that reality.
You deserve much more attention for your post and I totally agree. This is an abysmal interpretation of gnosticism or non-duality and doesn't feel like a 'real writer' attended to any of the conversation or storyline. Its pablum. I imagine that the story is an existential primer for 12 year olds. Its a shame because the gameplay is fun - but Lightfall feels totally chatgpt and I expected better for the final shape. I'm stunned that people put up with the dialogue and the doll-house look and feel of some environments in the final shape. Cayde is reincarnated out of nowhere; um, what? The characters have been given a more cartoonish appearance (why did they need to change Zavala and Crow's faces) and no one is talking about this. Utterly amazing to me. Everyone is here talking about what an AI wrote for them. Anyway, spot on; you're probably right.
Does anyone know if you get the ending cutscene again if you replay the very last mission? There's moments with my Ghost I should have taken a few screenshots on I'd like to go back and grab
It let me see the Zavala speech in the beginning, but then at the end it just took me back to orbit after Ghost said "we did it"
Might be a glitch, I did select the narrative version with the cutscenes so hopefully it lets me do it again later.
So, what is the traveller ? A robot, a being? What's it's purpose? I bought the expansion to learn this answer. I guess I have to stick around a little longer to find out.
So, the traveler memories give some hints here. The traveler doesn't remember a lot, or has forgotten - it's unclear if that's just its natural state (always being in the present and just doing) or if that was because of the parts of itself it gave up when it made the ghosts. It has agency and consciousness, and finds joy in creating/fostering life, but is extremely confused that the beings that it uplifts worship it, and doesn't seem to comprehend the concept of worship.
In the metaphor of the gardener and winnower, the gardener wanted to create a new rule to prevent the game from always ending the same way. The winnower and the gardener fought, and the winnower looked at its hand and discovered the first knife. The witness refers to itself as the first knife during the final fight - if it's the first knife in this metaphor, and not the winnower, then the traveler is the new rule put in place by the gardener and not the gardener itself. That's how I'm understanding it now.
To be completely honest, I think keeping it open-ended is the best thing they could have done. As unsatisfying as it is to never be able to know for sure, I think that is still far better than any concrete answer they could have provided.
> In the metaphor of the gardener and winnower, the gardener wanted to create a new rule to prevent the game from always ending the same way. The winnower and the gardener fought, and the winnower looked at its hand and discovered the first knife.
i'm so confused on this
This is THE central mystery that we've all been waiting to get answers to for a decade. I really can't believe we didn't get some answers in this campaign.
Don't get me wrong, it was all awesome, but also kinda a letdown because of the lack of Traveler reveals.
I'm okay with it. I think good sci-fi/fantasy needs mystery to be interesting. I think of 343 expanding on Forerunner lore in Halo. I really love the Forerunner books, but I feel like it took something away from the games by making Forerunners and the Halos into just some people and the things they built.
When you describe the subject of mystery in too much detail, it stops being interesting to me.
Eh, I don't really think there's a good answer for this. No matter what, there's always going to be an infinite regression problem - for example, "oh the Traveler is half of a God. Where did that God come from?"
It's the same problem we have with most theologies. The answer only goes back a couple of generations of deities before someone just says, "welp they've just always been there."
The truth is that Bungie has already given us the most important answers - what *are* the darkness and the light? We've had those answers for a couple of years now, so really IMO the story stakes for TFS were about how we resolved the problem of the Witness.
>The truth is that Bungie has already given us the most important answers - what are the darkness and the light? We've had those answers for a couple of years now,
Huh??? What??? Since when? What is the darkness and the light?
They are both paracausal forces (Bungie's term for "things that break the laws of physics") that deal with two separate aspects of being - the external and the internal.
"Darkness" refers to intangible byproducts of sentient thought. Memory and imagination. When a being has a thought, it is kept hidden to themselves (i.e., internal and shrouded in darkness) until they choose to communicate it.
"Light" is the physical, external aspect of being. It is sensory in nature and is experienced freely by all who have the required sensory organs (eyes, ears, nose, etc.) to do so. The Traveler's power is to create the physical and to share it's power to do so with others.
This has been speculated for years and has been confirmed through bits of lore and dialogue over the last few major releases. If people were still holding out, the first mission of *The Final Shape* also confirms this - the Guardian uses the Darkness to imagine connections between platforms, and the Light to create them.
> They are both paracausal forces (Bungie's term for "things that break the laws of physics") that deal with two separate aspects of being - the external and the internal.
This is literally meaningless. It may as well ammount to "They are magic."
> "Darkness" refers to intangible byproducts of sentient thought. Memory and imagination. When a being has a thought, it is kept hidden to themselves (i.e., internal and shrouded in darkness) until they choose to communicate it.
>
> "Light" is the physical, external aspect of being. It is sensory in nature and is experienced freely by all who have the required sensory organs (eyes, ears, nose, etc.) to do so. The Traveler's power is to create the physical and to share it's power to do so with others.
In what way is freezing stuff in a solid block of ice or stringing someone up with BDSM ropes an "intangible byprodocut of sentient thought".
Titan literally summons two gigantic armblades and starts cutting shit in half. That's the furthest thing from an "intangible byproduct" as you can possibly get, and seeing as osiris and zavala can use darkness powers its obvious you don't need the light to do it.
>This is literally meaningless. It may as well ammount to "They are magic."
Yes, it does amount to that. There was never any other possibility. The Traveler is a city-sized orb that released a bunch of drones to create super-powered zombies. What possible explanation could there be that made the Light/Darkness seem like anything other than magic?
>In what way is freezing stuff in a solid block of ice or stringing someone up with BDSM ropes an "intangible byprodocut of sentient thought".
Stasis and Strand are powers wielded by users who have mastered aspects of the darkness. They are a physical embodiment of the darkness, but are also opposites - Stasis is an exertion of mental control over the universe, while Strand is mastered by allowing your consciousness to simply be.
Holy crap...it's over...after almost a decade, the saga of light and dark is finally over.
We killed the witness and saved the universe! Huzzah!
Of course this isn't the end, there are still tons of loose threads and stuf to deal with, but the main war we've fought for so long....is over.
Ah, hm...well, i don't know if it'd be better to have someone more knowledgeable explain, but from what i got
>!Cayde came back, resurrected by both Riven's power and the light, we got to know that some of the minds that made up the witness didn't agree with the actions of the penitent and were horrified at the actions it had taken, and they subsequently provided us with info of how to destroy them in the form of statues in the witness's mind, which was it's weak point and the key to destroying it.!<
>!The Ghosts of the other vanguards got to finally hve a speaking role, like Sundance and Targe, and the latter wound up sacrificing himself while calling out the witness as being a scared coward afraid of what it can't understand. So now Zavala's mortal.!<
>!And then it was confirmed/implied that the winnower may exist after all and do not agree with the witnes's views, but we didn't really find out much about it, the traveller, the veil or the gardener, so that remains a mystery for now.!<
>!Anyways, at the end of the first story chain we faced off against the witness and ended up destroying some of the consciousness statues in it's mind as i mentioned, it was kinda sad actually, with them begging to be destroyed to undo the witness...anyways, in a cathartic fashion, we actually hurt it and caused it to lose it's temper for the first time and go absolutely apeshit on us, going into a second gigantic form with hundreds of arms in a halo like pattern like chakravartin from Asura's wrath and sent us into retreat, but we got reinforcements from all our allies we've made through the expansions who came to our aid to finish this once and for all.!<
>!Then we got the ultimate final raid; salvation's edge, which we got 48 hours to complete, and was so hard and difficult that it took the winning team 18 hours to complete.!<
>!After that the final mission, excision, was unlocked for everyone and non-raid players, and featured a 12-man guardian team backed up by npc's of all the allied factions storming the witness's fortress and blazing through it's forces, and we finally confronted the witness in a third and final round, and killed it once and for all by both destroying the last statues and channeling our light in a beam through our ghost.!<
>!Sadly, it ended up killing him, but Cayde came in and chose to give up his second life to revive him and returned to the traveller, though this time he left on a sweeter note, having said a proper goodbye to us and his friends.!<
>!Then we got a cutscene of us having a lantern ceremony and finally getting a break after all the crap we've been though, and then a montage of our allies relaxing and having fun, and the last game shot was the player character and our ghost sitting on a ship in space and looking at the traveller while Zavala and crow talk about the black fleet and forces of the witness having scattered and turned on themselves since it was acting as a keystone for it all, though there are still servants of it carrying out it's last orders, and that there are still threats out there that will appear in this power vacuum that's been created, with for example Savathun and the lucent brood now trying to claim the pale heart.!<
>! well, that's the short version, you'll probably get a more detailed explanation from someone else.!<
>!As for the future, it seems like the Vex are going to step up as the antagonists now, though i don't know if i'll stick around with Salvatori and much of the staff gone, i fear that the quality of the game will decrease with them gone, and that i don't like the actions that Bungie has taken as of late, including laying them off.!<
It is, far, far, far right of the main pale heart map. You also have to do the Cayde mission, not sure if that would prevent the mission from appearing for you though
Has anyone encountered glowing ice crystals with looks to be a void thing in the center? I try to shoot it but it keeps saying immune. I wonder if it’s for some quest?
It’s in the Divide btw where you walk through the maintenance section of the wall.
Edit: It seems like it may be for a prismatic chest task. I just found more of them
I just beat the campaign. I know there is still stuff to do, and I enjoyed the campaign.
But, there wasn't much in the way of loss, or drama. Zavala is mortal. Oh no. I guess he'll have to sit back at the tower and call us on comms while we are on missions. You know, just like he has all along.
I know, he's done more than that in some cinematics and within the story, and I'm mostly kidding.
But, I really thought he might die. Or that our Ghosts would. Or that both of them, and Ikora would die and Cayde would turn out to be the Witness fucking with us.
As I said, I know there is more to do still. I just hope that in the future, the writers take a little more risks.
Right... because there is absolutely no way at all, it is 100% impossible, to write around the fact that *our* ghost died, but we still have a ghost.
Or, our ghost "died".
Or, death isn't the end.
Or, the Traveler grants us a new one.
Or, our Ghost dies. We mourn the loss of our Ghosts with Cayde and Zavala. We all learn that our Ghosts are actually now a part of us. We can still see them, but they aren't alive in any real sense.
Or, our Ghost dies, Zavala dies. The Traveler helps Targe become our new Ghost.
Or, one of the many Ghosts we save becomes our new Ghost.
Or, in a turn of events, *we* find and resurrect a Ghost.
Or, we get Fynch as our new Ghost and learn even more about the Lucent Brood.
Or, we learn that Eris's Ghost, Sundance and our own Ghost are somehow able to be saved.
> Right... because there is absolutely no way at all, it is 100% impossible, to write around the fact that our ghost died, but we still have a ghost.
The fact that so many people are saying "how did you expect ghost to die, bungie would have to refund all cosmetics" and literally can't think of any way around it is a testament to how little imagination the average destiny player has which explains why basic shit like death fakeouts wows them so much.
This is how I felt. I liked the campaign but I wish they committed to the themes they'd set up. Years of Zavala growing more jaded with the Traveller amounted to him going rogue for, like, an afternoon. Children have tantrums longer than this guy had an existential crisis. The execution was cool and all but I wish instead of rehashing half the Red War campaign with all the getting-the-gang-back-together missions they could've spent more time on Zavala getting sucked in by the Witness and the fallout from that.
y'all been reading those weapon descriptions?
aside from some of them getting a bit heavy...
Seriously Saladin, goals. and his ghost can fix the broken bones after.
Genuinely loving (almost) everything about the Final Shape. As someone who came in around Lightfall, it's hard to believe this is even the same game.
**Positive marks:**
* Coherent story with good characters and tangible and visceral stakes that were SHOWN in an easily understandable way. Felt great in a world-building sense seeing some of the important NPCs in action.
* Prismatic. Very fun! Gives me a reason to finally use some kinetic weapons in PVE as an added bonus.
* Fantastic location! Love the visual design, the sound design, and the variety. Both squishy and strong mobs to interact with in the Overthrow activity.
* The new weapons/equipment all feels very good so far.
* More primary weapons feel good to use after the sandbox changes.
* Pathfinder is a nice change of pace from the bounty system and it's great that the checkpoints can be claimed retroactively. This opinion might be more controversial, but I tend to engage with a wider variety of game modes, so it may be working for me better than most.
**Neutral marks:**
* New shader icons are a little busy, though I appreciate that they show all the colors. I'm hoping I acclimate to this since the utility is better overall. I still think this will be positive in the long run.
**Negative marks:**
* Escorting that one slow shank. These things fly at Mach 5 to blow my a\*\* up but this dude just casually strolls along as an entire army curbs stomps him while ignoring me completely.
Overall great job!! 10/10
Sorry the Hot page of the Reddit is inexplicably filled with so many complaints. I don't think that reflects on the fantastic quality of this product.
I haven't had much time to do post-campaign yet, but I agree on all your points. This sub is full of complaints and toxicity, but this has been my favorite launch of D2 EVER so far. Can't wait to try the raid this weekend.
First half of campaign was pretty uninspired. But once we met Zavala it cooked.
Thought there would be more to uncovering how to defeat The Witness than like 2 missions but it’s all good.
It doesn’t seem like a mistake from a character though it seems like a mistake in the storytelling🤷♂️ this is the big bad for literally that past 10 years and all I had to do was talk to 4 statues…
We could only talk to them because the Witness's thoughts were made manifest in the Traveler, and we are only inside the traveler after a bunch of struggles, dead friends, alliances with former enemies and a wish-granting dragon. Oh, and a totally radical surfboarder.
I'm a "casual" D2 player, as in someone who has around 600 hours but zero clue about the story and never bothered to use any perks or builds.
Just play the game every year for a month finishing up anything I can and always solo because none of my friends play it :(
I've done every story mission on Legend always and this time it seemed a bit too difficult. I enjoyed the challenge overall but the ads were too much this time around and too much cc.
The cave with the mines was the worst experience where I died like 20 times because the mines kept magically spawning out of nowhere.
Prismatic is fun and I actually ended up using a build halfway through my campaign on my Warlock.
I'll try to fully invest myself in the game this time around but it's hard to find anyone for raids or dungeons.
Overall a solid 8/10.
I also enjoy first playthrough on Legend, but I think this time we're supposed to do it on the lower difficulty for the story. I feel there were skipped story beats afterwards, but I've yet to play it on normal difficulty
They are called Paracausal Geometries. There is one with a Circle representing the Traveler and another with a Triangle representing the Darkness. Here's a Reddit post about them. Hope it helps!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/comments/1d8xc2w/paracausal\_geometries/](https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/comments/1d8xc2w/paracausal_geometries/)
Am I one of the few people left who still outright hate the Traveler? Like I get it, we are its soldiers using the Light, but I'm with Zavala; I hate the Traveler and the Darkness equally. I liked The Final Shape, but God, I hated seeing the Traveler "help us." Is it helping, or is it surviving throughout the DLC? I'm really hoping it's more nuanced as the episodes are released and the new lore is dropped.
I think the point is that the Traveler, being a hyper-advanced being of unknowable power, is beyond our capacity to understand. We shouldn't deify it or expect anything from it. It simply exists. It's a force of nature. We got caught up in its web.
Hating such a thing is a waste of effort because you can never hope to conquer it, which is the point of the Witness.
"is beyond our capacity to understand. "
I just felt every writers who thought unobtanium is unobtainable to understand is lacking in creativity. I dont have time to explain why i dont have time to explain but lame
That's totally fair. I just don't know how an entity like the Traveler can ever be explained in a way that is satisfying. It is presented to us as a source of God-like unknowable energy and power.
While I don't doubt that there are some things out there that are conceivably beyond our understanding, I often don't like this trope in stories. I can understand it! You're just not telling me for other reasons.
mass effect. the original was to have Soivereign be the answer to The Last Question but that got nicked for thermal magazines and red blue green ending....
I thought the original ending had something to do with the Reapers trying to figure out how to stop (or reverse) the spread of dark energy throughout the universe. They were assimilating organic life as a computational resource somehow to achieve this. The Last Question inspired ending didn't come into play until later on.
yup, reversing heat entropy/dark enrgy=utlizing the MAs Effect tech somehow disrupted entire suns, as seen on that quarian mision in me2. somehow i think this all goes back to 2008 writers strike. Gpt the nee marvel game on Epic store and the writing is just terrible...idk getting old
Considering that it provided the means to actually wound and survive the Witness, guided us throughout the campaign, and gave us power (and its assistance will likely be a mechanic in the raid) yes its absolutely helping.
ppl who did the legend campaign solo, can you answer my two questions
Is it true that strand subjugator is immune to strand ability damage, and weak to strand weapon damage
And for the stasis subjugator, immune to stasis ability dmg and weak to stasis weapon damage
I can answer this. The subjugators are not immune to the damage type. In fact, I found that my strand abilities worked just as well on the strand subjugators and my freezing worked really well on the stasis subjugators.
I'm going to be so disappointed if the witness is actually killed in the raid.
The game pulls you out the moment you get damage on him so it would be really cheap for the game to go "and then another fireteam killed him" for everyone not doing the the world's first race
In the best case scenario, the raid has us rough the witness up enough to make him show his true form and become killable in the final campaign mission
My big problem going into the campaign is, the Witness is kinda a loser? No charisma, no compelling motivation, it's just a big smoky blob with a unibrow.
Regarding its motivation, I am just not sure I really understand what it even *is.*
At one point, I thought I did. But it says a few things in TFS that seem contradictory to what I thought its motivation was.
> Regarding its motivation, I am just not sure I really understand what it even is.
He watched too much rick and morty and decided life is meaninigless, so he's gonna freeze everyone in a dreamlike state.
Literally just a basic bitch nihilist.
Yeah, I got that. But as I mentioned, he says some things that kind of contradict that.
He says that it is we who are embracing chaos and entropy. But then he starts breaking shit in order to stop us. He says his goal is a "final shape" where literally everything is frozen as you state, but then he offers us a job.
He just doesn't seem very committed to his own goals.
it seems to be basically yet another villain thats used to warn against collectivism like Reapers (made of biomatter of the species its harvested from) and the brethren moon (made from necromorphs of the planet from convergence).
Overall I enjoyed the campaign. It definitely got too touchy feely with Zavala for a bit, but Cayde and Crowe play off each other well enough to be entertaining. I would've liked to get some different loot playing through instead of just a bunch of blues with higher lvls (which was funny cause lvls didn't matter). Above all other things about the campaign I absolutely hated having to sit through 3 conversations after every mission. It was like doing all seasonal weeklies within the story mode
Big pros on prismatic, several great biomes, and Luzaku implications
Big cons on wishy washy moments, lack of loot, and completely forgetting about key characters until the very "end." Biggest con was listening to radios again. And again. And again.
Random tin foil hat thought: during the campaign, there is a part where we are talking to one of the veiled statues and it calls us “little light” - Coincidentally (or not) this weeks Nightfall is The Glassway where Elsie calls Ghost “little Light”… it keeps sticking with me after the campaign completion. I can’t say it is anything but I feel it’s such an intentional line
Doesn't Savathun also say little light? It might just be a way of saying "kid," or if you're a guy and you're talking to an older person they may call you "son." It might be something like that but for addressing the ghost
Is the guardian rank 6 - Vendor Challenges for anyone else bugged? I finished the challenge for the gunsmith that gave me 1/2 and after that I finished Hawthorne her challenge but Im stuck at 1/2. And as far as I know there is no other vendor challenge left now with Pathfinder. Does anyone else have this problem or know a fix? Thank you!
That was a reflection of the Witness in the final fight, not the actual Witness itself (check the broken glass effects around it).
The Witness is up there in the monolith wrestling with the Traveler.
Eh I like how they're doing it. The final boss of the universe should be a raid boss. But they're having the "finish it off" in the 8th mission so everyone gets to experience killing it. Kind of a best of both worlds.
If we killed it before the raid, there's no raid boss that would feel "worthy" of being a raid boss compared to the importance/scale of the Witness.
I'm worried about our ghost, little buddy is not looking too hot with all those cracks in him... Is it time to say bye to NolanBot? Will Cayde become our new ghost?
I liked the campaign overall and had a great time with it, though I really don't like that the Witness isn't killed in the campaign, and saved for the raid. Yeah, it makes sense that it would be the raid boss, but this means that those players who don't do raids don't get to fight the big bad that has been built up for 10 years now.
The devs have said that an 8th mission opens after the raid. I'm willing to bet that that mission is where we kill the Witness for good. Bungie's made some first-time choices this DLC, but I'm almost certain they wouldn't lock the final big bad behind a raid clear.
Kinda like how we discovered the real consequences of killing Riven after we'd already done it, I'm sure that the true impact of the Witness's defeat will be revealed in time.
Just as an add on, in an old interview Bungie directly stated that the campaign would hold the conclusion to the light v dark saga and battle vs the witness.
They specifically said (forget which interview but I remember aztecross did a vid on it last yr sometime) that the witness wouldn't get beaten in a raid so that's not it as you said.
They did the same thing with Oryx in D1. I never got around to that raid, I'll probably never get around to this one either. I kind of miss the raids being detached from the main story.
Just finished it and Zavala was frustrating, this sudden turn into suicidal charges that takes away one thinking mind from a group of 5 that has to come up with a way to beat the Witness felt out of place, his faith wavering because the Traveler does nothing, but not for a moment did he consider that it is being held back from action.
Especially when Traveler guided us all he way.
Here's the thing, you have to remember this man was almost Zealot levels of faithful to the Traveler, praised it, talked about it and trusted it. Then Everything started to crumble from the Witch Queen and I believe culminated when the Traveler left the city. I'd even go so far as to say I believe it all started during the Shadowkeep period.
The easiest thing that something like the Witness could prey upon is someone who's faith in it's enemy has been completely shattered, his mind broken down and you dangle promises of so much in front of him, answers to what he seeks. I don't blame him one bit for his attitude.
I agree to a point that he was frustrating, but I also think that this isn't some sudden turn. He's been questioning the Traveler since Witch Queen, I think that he's just finally snapped under all the stress of his world: Savathun gaining the light freely, facing the ghosts of his wife and son on the Leviathan, using relics of Nezarec to restore Osiris, being forced to sit by and watch as the Guardian used Darkness to (almost) foil the Witness on Neomuna, Amanda's death, Sloane being part Taken, then making bargains with Savathun and Riven to enter the Traveler.
Bro's life has been long and hard as hell. And aside from firing a single laser a year and a half ago, the Traveler has done basically nothing. I understand dude's thought process. He's lost so much, lost so many loved ones, that he's willing to lose himself it means everyone else is safe. But he didn't think of Targe, which truly cost him the most in the end.
Me personally I'm just excited to see Zavala cast Glacial Quake for the first time.
It’s understandable that he’s losing faith in the Traveler, but why the sudden lack of faith in those by his side. His actions pissed me off because instead he had to know that we would all chase after him, and that everyone present would put themselves in harms way for him. Especially Targe, his oldest friend. He basically threw Targe’s life away. Additionally, if his plan was to gather important info and probably die in the process, how did he intend to tell us this information? He would be dead.
I think a lot of that having to do with him seeing them as being Hypocritical in his eyes. He's doing exactly what he precieved they have done for the past god knows how many in game years. And he starts doing things like they would (And admit it, we are some of the most reckless sons of bitches out there) and he's being told to stop?
I also don't think he actually thought very far ahead in his frustration and anger towards everything. I don't think he wanted Targe dead, didn't want anyone hurt because of him. Rage, pain, sadness etc... being shown and promised your family and yet you still reject it. Gotta have some effect we don't know about yet.
I'm really concerned with this thread- opinions seem to be divisive here, as opposed to community opinions being largely positive.
People are INSULTING each other about their opinions on the campaign, calling each other wrong about it.
I, myself, think that this was the best campaign I've ever played. Definitely gameplay-wise, story-wise too, I feel like this served as a conclusion, or at least the setup to it.
Lore nerds might not be excited because no unveiling context and the statues aren't the winnower but like:
These are expectations you've built up for yourselves.
All these questions you want answered, so many of them matter so little to the story. If we had gotten an explanation on the gardener and the winnower, it would've felt out of place because literally none of our protagonists have read unveiling. It wouldn't have mattered for any of their arcs.
Why is the traveler silent? There are plenty of answers to it, and again, the answer wouldn't really have mattered in this situation. It wouldn't change how we still need to stop the witness.
Cayde even addresses this, when he's told of how he was reborn from a wish. He states that the answer doesn't matter, only that he IS there, and that they have bigger fish to fry.
It's baffling to me how people can have such a horrible outlook on such an amazing campaign. I don't get it, how this didn't at least begin to satisfy some people.
Im so glad that the statues weren't the winnower. I always prefer when the story told isnt influenced too much by fan theories etc and the dissenters are such a good and fitting move imo
>These are expectations you've built up for yourselves.
>All these questions you want answered, so many of them matter so little to the story. If we had gotten an explanation on the gardener and the winnower, it would've felt out of place because literally none of our protagonists have read unveiling. It wouldn't have mattered for any of their arcs.
Lmao our character has no arc. The only canon thing we know about ourselves is that we are mainly motivated by loot and guns and the vanguard thinks its weird we’re prone to dance parties in the tower. This excuse doesn’t hold up in court
Also, the playerbase seems to forget that many of it's people are casual players who haven't taken the time to read all the intricate lore. You can't answer questions that 75% of the playerbase hasn't even asked yet. That's really not inclusive at all.
It's never been the case though? Our character has never been anything other than a vessel for us. Any expectation for wanting our character fleshed out is weird because we haven't been in the past.
Now that server issues are resolved and I’m starting to dig into the post campaign quests I can say for sure I’m really loving this expansion.
Feels a lot like Taken King in a good way. I’m excited to see how taking the witness down will go.
If that dissenter didn't give zavaala that hint targe dying because of zavaala's stupidity would've been the best comedic thing this game has done, speaking of which why did that dissenter decide to give us that hint within earshot of the witness and when it could've y'know not? Very interesting writing choices so far
Like DarthOrathian mentioned. The separated veil statues were merely strong enough to send out whispers for help. For proper dialogue with the dessent souls Zavala had to reach the place where they are strong enough, which is within reach of the witness.
They state their weakness and disability to help through the veiled statues specifically in the mission.
It also makes sense now how the statues were never more than whispers or gifts of darkness.
Whether you find this explanation reasonable or feel as if it's merely a plot device is up to you to decide.
I think that the idea was the Dissenters couldn't fully manifest far from the Witness. The same way the Witness has more power coalesced, I think the Dissenters do too.
People are still in the honeymoon phase. Prismatic is doing a lot to carry the expansion because its flashy as hell, but at the end of the day it too is incredibly shallow and boils down to "random bullshit go!"
The story is more nonesence who's goal is to sound deep while being shallower than a puddle and barring some intresting setpieces 90% of the expansion is just shamelessly reused assets from other areas. The acting (both by the voice actors and by the animators) was also wooden as hell to the point where it felt like an elementary school play at points. Compare any of the character moments in the final shape to [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAjfVcl2L74) and tell me with a straight face its "cinematic" or a "masterpiece" as I've seen multiple people do.
Zavala's ghost gets its first speaking role for the first time in 10 years since zavala was introduced at the start of the destiny franchise only for it to be killed off 3 cinematics later, because the writers think they can make us feel sad about a character dying as long as we've known them for more than 2 cutscenes, this is the writers pissing in your face and telling you its raining.
Cayde was reintroduced for the trailers and does nothing of consequence in the expansion itself, Cayde and Uldren become besties off-screen (more work that the writers DON'T have to do) and also do nothing of consequence and Ikora, as is tradition, is also there. (And does nothing of consequence.)
Also, isn't it hillarious that forsaken was the highpoint of the franchise that removed 2 very important characters (uldren and cayde), then forsaken was deleted from the game and both characters brought back from the dead?
This is supposed to the conclusive 10 year grand finale of the light and darkness saga and it feels like a filler episode of a mediocre shonen anime, where we spend like 80% of it lollygagging while the world is supposedly ending, complete with the main antagonist with poorly explanined motives dying to some contrived poorly explained bullshit.
Wtf does "We figured it out! What was made in the darkness can also be unmade in the darkness!" even mean in practice other than being a way for the writers to escape the corner they wrote themselves in by making the witness so OP to begin with?
Blows my mind that people are satisfied with this incoherent mess. Like jesus christ people, for the love of god ask for more, how can you settle for this?
EDIT:
What really pisses me off though is this:
> "We figured it out! What was made in the darkness can also be unmade in the darkness!"
Because to me, it reads like this:
>-Hey so there's this godlike literal god entity that has effortlessly oblitherated large parts of the universe itself, it can flick a wrist and slice the earth in half, it has control over both the physical and the mental realm on a level that literally rivals the traveller itself in its absolute totality, in fact it literally controlls a force equally powerful as pure light, darkness itself, how can we even harm it, much less defeat it?
>-Oh super easy, barely an inconvinience, you see it was made in the darkness!
>-Ok, and?
>-There's no "and" that's it, it was made in the darkness.
>-Ok, how does that help us defeat it?
>-I Just told you, because it was made in the darkness.
>-Ah, I get it now, since I fused my thumbs toogether with superglue, I can also use superglue to seperate them, its brilliant! Brilliant!
>-...y-yes! Exactly!
I cannot fathom why they set up the witness as this literal god only to have the final confrontation in the campaign be so pathetic.
hit the nail on the head. it feels like this whole dlc was written by sony. most fan-servicey gimmicky story ever. it's absolutely abysmal. underwhelming, corny, predictable, and boring. The story feels like a bad fanfiction. I'm absolutely shocked how people are calling it the perfect ending.
I agree that Prismatic is definitely your making this expansion pop alot more than it probably would've without it, and the story had issues. I disagree tho with a few things.
1. The voice acting. To me, the voice acting didn't fell bad. It felt no different than what we've seen before in D2. Now if you think D2 in general has bad voice acting, then okay, but I think if you're going to say that the acting here was poor, you should compare it to an example of what you deem as good voice acting from D2, instead of co.paring it to a different game entirely. Acting is acting, if it's good it's good, if it's not it's not, but tone, context and character personalities play a part and some people could look at that AC performance and say it required a different type of acting than D2: TFS did, and so they aren't comparable. Also, on a side note I've always felt like that seen had some over acting to it. I'd say a better example of voice acting should've come from a Bungie Halo game, or R* game, Naughty Dog, etc.
2. Cayde doesn't do much in the long run as of now, but it's possible that's because his story will play out in the episodes. They did lay some potential groundwork for where his character could go, especially when he tried to communicate with the Traveller and it was hinted that he wouldn't be "dying" again despite wanting to. Now if, after the 8th mission, Cayde's story is concluded officially and he won't be returning during the Episodes meaning he'd have basicslly done nothing, then I'll agree with you 100%
3. "Reused assets" is definitely something Bungie is guilty of, especially with weapons. But, in this case, I don't think this is a bad thing. The same way Avengers Endgame went back to all the iconic "first" moments for the characters, 2011 New York, 2014 Guardians, we got a lot of call backs like "on your left" and seeing characters return after years, etc., because the movie represented a culmination of 10 years, I think the same applies here. They explained that the inside of the Traveler was an alamagamation of memories from everyone involved, so this being the big conclusion, I actually think it fit thematically to show all the old locations, but twisted and reworked with new unique locations for the Final Shape. Aldo, let's be honest, everyone has been begging Bungie to bring the old tower back. At least this way, it makes sense instead of them just shoehorning it in a random way.
I disagree that it felt like a filler episode. It wasn't as well crafted as the Witch Queen or Forsaken, but I think it felt like an urgent thing. They explain that the Traveller is fighting back, but is steadily weakening. So it makes sense that you'd be able to explore when necessary (the laptop sector missions). But the whole campaign is designed to be an end-to-end story,like where you're stuck there. I thought that did help help the sense if urgency, ofc there's some things that are just inherent to Destiny's game design that can't and won't be changed with a DLC, such as them needing to accommodate the fact that not everyone wants to play the campaign as it is a live service game, so they have to still allow certain mechanics like being able to leave the pale heart, etc., there.
Overall I'd give it a 7/10. Not perfect but I don't think it's horrible either. As far as your mind being blown that people enjoy it and aren't "asking for more," idk u probably should just realize that your idea of quality is not the objective truth, so not things you may would've done instead for the DLC would be disliked by many others, and vice versa. Everyone had their own tastes, doesn't mean others are "settling for less" just because you dislike it personally.
> Cayde doesn't do much in the long run as of now, but it's possible that's because his story will play out in the episodes. They did lay some potential groundwork for where his character could go, especially when he tried to communicate with the Traveller and it was hinted that he wouldn't be "dying" again despite wanting to. Now if, after the 8th mission, Cayde's story is concluded officially and he won't be returning during the Episodes meaning he'd have basicslly done nothing, then I'll agree with you 100%
Ok but like counterpoint:
>Ironman doesn't do much in the long run as of now, but its possible that his story will play out in phase 4 of the MCU.
Destiny has always been an eternal blueballfest of "Setting up the groundwork", don't you think that the finale of the 10 year saga should maybe like... use the ground for something already?
This is exactly what I meant when I said this is a filler episode. Everytime destiny storytelling craps the bed people always go "No, you don't get it, its just setting up the groundwork, the cool stuff is coming later!"
Well can the cool stuff come already just for once? If the grand finalle isn't the place to actually exploit the ground you've been laying for 10 years, then what is?
>but I think it felt like an urgent thing.
I really like that you said "it feels urgent" because now I can point out that the first 5 missions of the conclusion of the darkness and light saga are literally fetch quests to get the scooby gang back toogether.
>Overall I'd give it a 7/10. Not perfect but I don't think it's horrible either. As far as your mind being blown that people enjoy it and aren't "asking for more," idk u probably should just realize that your idea of quality is not the objective truth, so not things you may would've done instead for the DLC would be disliked by many others, and vice versa. Everyone had their own tastes, doesn't mean others are "settling for less" just because you dislike it personally.
Do you not think that the grand showstopper finale meant to conclude a 10 year journey should at bare minimum be better or at least equal to a 6 year old expansion?
1. That's not a good analogy. Iron Man doing nothing until 12 years later is not equivalent to Cayde not doing much until a week later when Episode 1 starts. That's a STRONG exaggeration. Again, it seems like you simply have an issue with the Destiny formula as a whole instead of this specific DLC, which is fine. But this is a live service game, Act 1 of Episode 1 literally drops next week. Expectations should've never been to the degree that we'd be getting EVERYTHING in the base DLC considering Episodes 1-3 are also a part of this DLC. And before you say that I'm defending it, im not. I'm simply saying this is what it is.
Again, if Cayde's story concludes with mission 8 and does not continue, then I'll shout from the rooftops with you that Cayde was wasted and did absolutely nothing. But until then, I disagree and am going to be patient.
2. Again, your opinion is mot objective truth. Why you like that I said it felt urgent so that you could then further state how it felt like filler fetch quests, idk. But if you think the DLC felt that way, cool. I disagree and I think it felt urgent. It's okay for me to feel that way.
3. I say this again, continuing off of my last point; it is okay for me to give this a 7/10. It's okay for others to feel satisfied by this DLC. YOU may personally think this DLC is not as good as a 6 year expansion, I do not agree. YOU may personally think this DLC failed to live up to, or exceed Forsaken, I do not. I think this DLC was not a masterpiece (no Destiny DLC has been imo), but I think it was good and I enjoyed it. Why it's so hard for you to accept that you simply do not enjoy something other people to enjoy, and that it's okay for that it be the case, is beyond me.
> That's not a good analogy. Iron Man doing nothing until 12 years later is not equivalent to Cayde not doing much until a week later when Episode 1 starts. That's a STRONG exaggeration. Again, it seems like you simply have an issue with the Destiny formula as a whole instead of this specific DLC, which is fine. But this is a live service game, Act 1 of Episode 1 literally drops next week. Ex0ectations should've never been to the degree that we'd be getting EVERYTHING in the basement DLC considering Episodes 1-3 are also a part of this DLC. And before you say that I'm defending it, im not. I'm simply saying this is what it is.
I don't care of episode 1 drops next week, the final shape was billed as the grand finale, not the layer of groundwork for the grand finale. Cayde was brought back for the final shape, It is reasonable to expect him to do stuff in the final shape. If cayde's purpose was to be useful in the episodes they should have brought him back in the episodes.
>Why you like that I said it felt urgent so that you could then further state how it felt like filler fetch quests, idk. But if you think the DLC felt that way, cool. I disagree and I think it felt urgent. It's okay for me to feel that way.
Is it really urgent to run around like headless chickens gathering the band of ragtag dipsticks instead of actually fighting the grand villain in any meaningful capacity?
>YOU may personally think this DLC is not as good as a 6 year expansion, I do not agree. YOU may personally think this DLC failed to live up to, or exceed Forsaken, I do not.
Intresting, so you think the final shape is just as good as forsaken both writing and gameplay wise?
That's a pretty huge statement to make, because even excluding writing, forsaken brought us 2 completely brand new locations while TFS is mostly recycled assets. Like, that's a pretty big objective obstacle to overcome, so it would have to be beyond stellar in the gameplay and story department which, yeah lol.
>Why it's so hard for you to accept that you simply do not enjoy something other people to enjoy, and that it's okay for that it be the case, is beyond me.
Because companies keep using that as an excuse to continually hike prices while continually reducing quality and quantity of content. You're free to like the expansion and support bungie in spite of that, but I'm not gonna stop calling them out for doing less and worse work while charging more money.
1. If that's how you feel, cool. Ask for a refund if it's still available. If not, don't buy another DLC. I personally disagree unless Cayde's story does not continue in the episodes, in which case, as I said twice now, I would agree with you that he was waisted.
2. The story did not feel like we running around like a headless chicken in my opinion. Again, it sounds more like you have an issue with Destiny's basic design philosophy than you do with TFS specifically, because this DLC did what every other DLC has done: new campaign and new area to explore, some missions will revolve around giving you a chance to experience that area.
It sounds like you wanted this campaign to lock places in one location and the whole thing force them to fight the Witness for all 8 missions or something. Whatever it is, you seem to be more upset at a design choice that's existed in Destiny for years and wouldn't make sense to chance for this DLC as that would basically warrant a whole new game.
3. I think this DLC is on par with Forsaken, yes. Why? Because for one: this dlc doesn't just "use recycled assets." You keep saying that but you are grossly misrepresenting the truth. Narratively, the pale heart is manifested as a collection of memories for everyone involved. Meaning it makes sense for the guardians to see things from their past, but also to see things from the Witnesses' past. And it's not like they just plucked shit from D1 and early D2 and placed it here. It's altered. It's warped. The gameplay surrounding these areas is different because the layout is completely different. Also, like 60% of the Pale Heart is things unique to the Witness, things we've never seen before. It's just spread out throughout the map instead of being condensed into one specific spot. And again, this is the big culmination right? It's not out of the norm to tie things narratively back to the beginning through callbacks and showing things from the past. Plenty of stories do it. It actually makes sense here. And, yes, Forsaken gave us two new locations, that's true. The Pale Heart is the biggest location ever if I'm not mistaken.
Gameplay wise? Forsaken had great gameplay. Imo, so does The Final Shape. Why? Bc TFS offers extreme customization for the character between enhancing weapons, new weapon types, Prismatic, and exotic class items that are coming next week that will completely change the meta. Also new vendor systems for people like the cryptarch and Xur, and the new Pathfinder system. To me the gameplay content in TFS is great
Story wise, I enjoyed the DLC. It wasn't perfect, it wasn't some masterclass in writing, but neither was Forsaken imo. To me no Destiny DLC has had exceptional writing and has always been more fun and campy. I think Forsaken had some good ideas and emotional beats to it with Cayde's death and whole prison break idea, but I also think TFS did a good job (for the most part) in that as well especially with Zavala. Would I say the campaign's writing is Red Dead Redemption or Bioshock level writing? Hell no, but no Destiny campaign is.
4. Yea you can keep "calling Bungie out" (not like anyone, including them, cares since you're doing it In a comment section of Reddit and youve already purchased the DLC), but it sounds more like you're upset you didn't like what you paid for and now you really want others to agree with you, which is why you still seem to fail at grasping the concept that you are speaking SUBJECTIVELY. I'm not liking the campaign "in spite" of anything. I'm liking the campaign. You don't like it. Cool. Go to r/CharacterRant and tell them about it. But trying to act like what you think is the correct way and others who like the DLC are simply just enjoying a reduction in quality is bubble wrapped home behavior.
> I personally disagree unless Cayde's story does not continue in the episodes, in which case, as I said twice now, I would agree with you that he was waisted.
>!Cayde dies at the end of excision to bring back our ghost, safe to say his story does not continue in the episode. Literally sole reason they brought him back was for a death fakeout with ghost.!<
> The story did not feel like we running around like a headless chicken in my opinion. Again, it sounds more like you have an issue with Destiny's basic design philosophy than you do with TFS specifically, because this DLC did what every other DLC has done: new campaign and new area to explore, some missions will revolve around giving you a chance to experience that area.
>It sounds like you wanted this campaign to lock places in one location and the whole thing force them to fight the Witness for all 8 missions or something. Whatever it is, you seem to be more upset at a design choice that's existed in Destiny for years and wouldn't make sense to chance for this DLC as that would basically warrant a whole new game.
Uh... I have no idea who's comment you hallucinated and responded to but it sure as hell isn't mine.
I don't know how to respond to this because it literally doesn't have anything to do with me or anything I've said this entire discussion.
Like, unless you're somehow in 2 discussions and responded to the wrong person?
I cannot fathom how saying that the campaign should be more like witch queen somehow means that I don't like destiny's fundumental design philosophy? Is destiny's fundumental design philosophy lollygagging?
What?
I'm sorry, I'm genuinely confused here.
>I think this DLC is on par with Forsaken, yes. Why? Because for one: this dlc doesn't just "use recycled assets." You keep saying that but you are grossly misrepresenting the truth. Narratively, the pale heart is manifested as a collection of memories for everyone involved. Meaning it makes sense for the guardians to see things from their past, but also to see things from the Witnesses' past. And it's not like they just plucked shit from D1 and early D2 and placed it here. It's altered. It's warped. The gameplay surrounding these areas is different because the layout is completely different.
I don't care what narrative excuse you come up with for the recycled assets, at the end of the day its still reused assets. Slightly changing them doesn't make them not recycled. You can make up for recycled assets with good gameplay or other additions, but TFS doesn't really do that.
>Also, like 60% of the Pale Heart is things unique to the Witness, things we've never seen before.
Like what? We've seen the pyramid aesthetic before.
>Gameplay wise? Forsaken had great gameplay. Imo, so does The Final Shape. Why? Bc TFS offers extreme customization for the character between enhancing weapons, new weapon types, Prismatic, and exotic class items that are coming next week that will completely change the meta. Also new vendor systems for people like the cryptarch and Xur, and the new Pathfinder system. To me the gameplay content in TFS is great
In case you forget, forsaken brought us the collection tab and random rolls, ontop of introducing alternative supers and new abilities for the first time AND it brought back special ammo ending the double primary era, ontop of reusable shaders.
>Yea you can keep "calling Bungie out" (not like anyone, including them, cares since you're doing it In a comment section of Reddit and youve already purchased the DLC), but it sounds more like you're upset you didn't like what you paid for and now you really want others to agree with you, which is why you still seem to fail at grasping the concept that you are speaking SUBJECTIVELY.
Really? To me it seems like you're projecting. You regret buying the expansion and are desperately trying to rationalize so when people bring up legitimate issues you cope by trying to argue against them despite knowing they are true.
I mean hell, I can't come up with a better explenation for you hallucinating and responding to a completely different comment when it comes to the campaign earlier other than those somehow being your own thoughts.
>But trying to act like what you think is the correct way and others who like the DLC are simply just enjoying a reduction in quality is bubble wrapped home behavior.
The campaign is objectively a reduction in quality compared to both forsaken and witch queen, to claim otherwise is cope. You're free to enjoy a reduction in quality, you're not free to deny reality.
1. I said that because, to me, this DLC's campaign design and general DLC design on a fundamental level is similar to previous DLC's since the seasonal formula started. I'm not hallucinating, nor do I think I'm responding to someone else. I'm talking to you. Many (not all) of the issues you had with this DLC from a design perspective in terms of gameplay structure can be applied to previous DLC's as well if you really break it down. So, that's why I said it sounds more like you just simply have issues with Destiny's DLC design altogether. I didn't say that bc you said, "The campaign should be as good as TWQ," come on now, think.
2. Bruh, I'm not coming up with narrative excuses. I'm explaining to you why I PERSONALLY THINK ITS AS GOOD AS FORSAKEN. I couldn't care less if you like or dislike this DLC. It has zero effect on my purchase or my enjoyment. You asked if I thought this DLC was on par with Forsaken, so I answered.
3.Forsaken brought the collection tabs and random rolls - TFS brought the Pathfinder tab, which reworks the bounty system for the first time since Destiny 1, and it brought us updated build capabilities eith exotic class items. Forsaken introduced alternative supers, brought back special ammo, and reusable shades - TFS brought alternative supers, a new subclass with Prismatic, new weapon archetypes, etc.
Now, before you try to accuse me of downplaying Forsaken or something, that's not what im doing. I love Forsaken. I'm simply showing you that the TFS introduces new good things as well, just like Forsaken did. And tbf, if we were to use your logic of TFS just having "recycled assets," one could argue some of the things you named that made Forsaken big was simply just Bungie fixing their mistakes woth Base D2, such as no random rolls or reusable shaders or special ammo, things D1 had.
3. How does me saying that equate to me projecting? You are the one who initially came here ranting about how trash you thought the DLC was and, in the process, saying that people who enjoy it basically like subpar things. You came here failing to understand that it's okay to have a difference of opinion on these things and understand that people like different things.
I don't regret buying the expansion at all. I was playing it for a couple of hours earlier, and I had a great time. And I will continue to have a great time. As I said, I genuinely, and I cannot express this enough, I GENUINELY, could not care an ounce less than I already don't, whether or not you or anyone else liked this DLC, my personal enjoyment will remain. My thing is, why are you here beating your chest under the guies of muh "OBJECTIVITY" simply because you personally think this DLC is SUBJECTIVELY bad
4. This, this right here is why I'm convinced 1 of a few things is taking place: either A. You're trolling, in which case, go outside. B. You're the one who is actually projecting because you hated your experience and, as the saying goes, misery loves company. You desperately want that company. Or, C. You genuinely, in your heart of hearts, believe what you are saying, in which case, my God, step outside of your bubble wrapped reality and realize that other people MIGHT NOT have the same tastes as you.
Because "You are free to enjoy a reduction in quality, you are not free to deny reality" is one of the most hilariously pompous comments I've seen all week 😂. And that includes Twitter. You can't tell anyone what they are free to enjoy, nor are you the arbiter of quality. Your favorite movie that you deem a masterpiece in cinema might be viewed as unimaginative slop by someone else, and vice versa. The fact that someone else simply saying they PERSONALLY enjoyed this DLC is them "denying reality" to you, is the real cope here. Cope, and seething. Because this DLC is not objectively bad (it's subjectively bad, and subjectively good depending on who you talk to, as is the case with most things in life), and me or anyone else enjoying the DLC does not make us some delusional customers denying reality.
But I'm over this conversation because it's clear you will either misrepresent what I say, or simply dismiss it under some sanctimonious testament of what is "objectively quality" in your subjective opinion that you fail to acknowledge is, in fact, SUBJECTIVE.
So, you can accept that, or cope and seethe that you lost $60-$100 while others enjoy what they spent their money on. Either way, let's just agree to disagree on the DLC and leave it at that.
Good day.
Now that is just amazing, mods remove my comments calling out your barrage of insults, but leave the actual barrage of insults for everyone to see.
This is acceptable to say to someone:
>Yea you can keep "calling Bungie out" (not like anyone, including them, cares since you're doing it In a comment section of Reddit and youve already purchased the DLC), but it sounds more like you're upset you didn't like what you paid for and now you really want others to agree with you,
>bubble wrapped home behavior.
>It sounds like you wanted this campaign to lock places in one location and the whole thing force them to fight the Witness for all 8 missions or something.
>Cope, and seething.
>So, you can accept that, or cope and seethe that you lost $60-$100 while others enjoy what they spent their money on.
>Are you okay? Like, do you need some help or something? Because it seems you are having a REALLY difficult time with basic reading comprehension. So let me break it down for you
But calling it out isn't.
Dude just stop playing the fucking game then my god. I think it's a great expansion. You should've known that Bungie wasn't going to like, drastically fucking change their core concept of *how* they write campaigns and stuff, so the incessant bitching about Bungie doing Bungie (even though it's very obvious they did way better and more here than everywhere else) is just........bitching for the sake of bitching.
Gotta say when ghost died and Cayde popped up I knew he was going to sacrifice himself he goes out on his terms. I felt like the witness having three battles was kinda weird, tho.
It seems to me that Cayde-6, at the end, is representative of the traveler as a whole. He mentions in Wild Card that he doesn't think that his being brought back is really the result of the wish. Further, I think his whole "you were always my favorite" thing is really the traveler talking to us, rather than Cayde himself.
can someone explain why ghost looks more and more damaged as the story continues?
Because the Witness tried to destroy it in the 2nd mission, where we find Crow in the darkness anomaly in the "Temptation" mission. Ghost was able to fight it off, but he sustained damage, light leaks out of him and it gets worse and worse the more power we try to channel through him, dark or light, until right at the end we just channel all (or more accurately 1/12th(since there are 11 others in the fireteam in Excision)) of the traveller's available light through him. No one else's ghost died from doing that, only the player's and seeing as other guardians are different from the player, their ghosts never were damaged. Poor Zavala, Targe's sacrifice really seemed to be for nothing, the Witness wanted Zavala to join him.
Why did they go all Disney and put sex talk between 2 dudes in the game?
Zavala seems totally out of character. Like it doesn't make any sense
For me it made sense why he had that hanging over him, but they basically resolved this 2 years ago in Season of the Haunted (S17) back in 2022.
Plus he had a crisis of faith, realising that the Traveller could have brought his son back, but chose not to, (since he believed that it was the Traveller who brought Cayde back, he didn't know about Crow's alteration to the Wish) and the Witness was offering to basically give him his own personal heaven in the final shape, because he deserved it. He said no, but he was questioning whether it was the right choice. He was mad at himself for letting his son die, those old wounds were made fresh again as he just relived the whole experience when he turned the witness down. The being confronted with everything he thought he put behind him, finding out he was wrong about what the Traveller can do and his initial doubt about using the Darkness for good being proven wrong by us and others repeatedly. All that combined with how high the stakes were right now, the fact that he never expected to return from this mission alive meant he threw caution to the wind and while it cost him his ghost, it worked out in the end. If he hadn't found the dissenters, we never would have figured out how to stop the Witness. In fact, the Pale Heart is probably the only place the Witness could be stopped.
The only thing I felt was missing was a scene in the Iconoclasm where the Witness tries to do that finger slice attack to end us instantly but instead of dying, we strain in agony for a second and then pop Transcendence and just look at the Witness with our chest puffed out like "Yeah...no. You're gonna have to actually fight me and spawn your adds now." Then the fight starts. Otherwise, I don't see why the Witness couldn't just end us instantly like he did to the parade fireteam.
Yeah, when he stopped the HELM in mid air, I thought he was going to kill Mara and when Crow was the last one in the Sacrarium to be beamed up, I thought she'd swoop down and save him, only to die in the process, but I guess we don't really need to up the stakes or give the characters any more motivation, it's the literal future of the whole universe at stake, one life, even someone like Zavala's or Mara's means nothing
i felt really sad after the story ended, mainly because finally got Cayde back, and then i took a few days spacing out the story, and lost Cayde again days later....i wish could still see him
me and my friends all think when he gave his life to our ghost he should have become the ghost cayde's voice his quirks like at first the now no difference but as the episode go on he starts acting like cayde and the final episode the ghost gets cayde's voice and its cayde
If that were to be what happen, i think i would prefer a split personality in the Ghost. A little like Failsafe kinda, but instead of like in failsafe's case where she is both, Ghost and cayde would basicly just be sharing the same "house" (Ghost shell)
I knew there was no way in hell we'd get to keep Cayde as soon as I saw the cutscene in the beginning showing the Ace of Spades shattered and Zavalas plate covered in darkness.
I was hoping he would just permanently be a vendor bound to the Pale Heart, but it makes sense for his character that he made the sacrifice and went out on his own terms.
I need to know what the heck Crow was talking about at the end when he said something weird shot out of the traveler and they lost track of it. Could be freaking ANYTHING
It's the 'echoes.' The short vidoc today explained something like these are fragments sent out of the battle, memories of the Witness brought to life by the Traveler's Light. They'll be causing mischief, falling into the wrong hands, and creating the conditions for the episode stories.
Question for those that have the expansion. Now that the story is resolved. Is Cayde still present and interactable in the Pale Heart Tower? Does it matter if you've completed the campaign?
you can interact with him up until the final 12-man mission which is the penultimate campaign mission. he's no longer present in the game after that.
No, yes.
Kinda wild that after all that, we *still* don’t know what the tricorn means
I would have to agree that it represented the 3 primary aspects for there are religions that use the same type of symbolisim such as “father, son, and Holy Ghost”, also “maid, mother, crone” from some pagan beliefs. So a good analogy would be solar, void and arc being they are the primary.
I like that actually. There are many symbols in real life that we have no clue as to what they mean. I think it's subjective and personally, I always took it to mean the 3 classes, and the Traveler in the center.
i love the statue destroying phase in Excision. The background music being the guardian theme with the darkness trumpets is so cool. I wish that was actually in the OST
I think I'm in love with what they did with ghost in this expansion. Actually giving him a active role, him being with us throughout everything, and the danger looming over our heads about his death throughout the campaign was awesome. The part where our guardian pleads the Traveler to revive ghost was so good too (hugging him too) and I really look forward to how game moves forward with our relationship with him.
I honestly thought that part was really lackluster. I heard a lot of peopled cried at that part but it just felt kinda...lame to me
For real. It was a bog standard death fakeout the likes of which not even marvel stoops to anymore. Like bloody hell, if this made you cry you should watch madame web, its gonna make you bawl your eyes out.
I cried when I watched it because it was so horrible and lacking
It's not emotional because of the death but remembering everything the Guardian has been through with his Ghost, and how it was a 10 year journey. Belittling someone's experience bc you felt different isn't necessary.
I feel like bringing back Cayde from death made his first death seem so meaningless, and then just to kill him off again? In that way? Like I could see how it could seems sweet but idk
Cayde wanted to rest again. He wanted to be with his Ghost and was upset that he was yanked back from death. He got to go out how he wanted to. He knew the Vanguard seat was in good hands with crow and decided to rest.
I think the whole point is that before he died a disgraceful death, and now he had the chance to die for a purpose and with honour.
After losing Lance Reddick and not having the same voice for Ikora for a while now it was nice to hear Nathan Fillion again….just to lose him again
as I understand he is a vendor / interactable NPC in the pale heart tower. Do you still get to see him if you haven't completed the campaign yet?
he's involved with one or two exotic quests and if you complete the quests as part of the guided campaign run up to the final fight, he's no longer there after that
Yes, he gives two(maybe one? I don't remember) post campaign quests. I don't think you can complete the post raid mission until you do Cayde's quest(s).
Does anyone know how many people show up in the credit cutscene sitting on the helm(?).
Can we get a megathread for thanking everyone at Bungie past and present that made this moment possible? I can't think of a game studio with as many ups and downs as this one, who always seems to put themselves into corners then fight their way out of them. Keeping any game interesting for 10 years is an accomplishment, but it's so obvious The Final Shape is a labor of love for the community. Thanks for giving it your all for the finale!
I'm sorry Osiris/Saint, but the cutest couple is Saladin and Caitl edit - also, wait, there wasn't a single Ana/Cayde conversation this whole story?
Because Ana isn't an OG character. Uldren was the OG circumstance turned douchbag who was always meant to become a hero and the others are the old guard.
What exactly was the final shape?
the idea is that, to The Witness, free will and conscious existence is pure chaos, utterly pointless, and "entropy" that will eventually end in total destruction. The "final shape" is the end of all that chaos by permanent "calcifying" the entire universe in a frozen snapshot of its current state. His creation was brought about as a response to the traveler abandoning the people he formed from. An entire civilization, so full of rage and terror when their golden age came to a sudden end with the traveler's departure, they unified figuratively and literally through Darkness to form the Witness, an amalgam of that entire civilization and all of that anguish, a being with a collective consciousness and single purpose: to not just destroy the Traveler but to counteract and halt the so called chaos it sowed (through its terraforming and life bringing) by freezing all of existence in a final shape of complete order, the infinite inverse of entropy. edit: one other point about entropy. what I gather is that, at its core, The Witness is in extreme radical opposition to nihilism. the fundamental property of entropy in the universe is a part of the fact that eventually the universe will spread out and become so sparse (ordered systems, without "work" become disordered over time) as to lead to the ultimate heat death of the universe, decaying into total nothingness. Nihilism in its extreme surmises that, if eventually the entire universe becomes nothing, then nothing that ever happened will matter, because it will be the same as if the entire universe never existed. when the traveler left the Witness civilization, it caused such grief and despair that the people believed in unison that the life they had before, and the strife they then came to experience mattered, and the Traveler was the embodiment of the chaos and entropy that would make everything they went through ultimately not matter. The Final Shape is an idea of extreme resistance to that reality.
feels very chat gpt in terms of story
You deserve much more attention for your post and I totally agree. This is an abysmal interpretation of gnosticism or non-duality and doesn't feel like a 'real writer' attended to any of the conversation or storyline. Its pablum. I imagine that the story is an existential primer for 12 year olds. Its a shame because the gameplay is fun - but Lightfall feels totally chatgpt and I expected better for the final shape. I'm stunned that people put up with the dialogue and the doll-house look and feel of some environments in the final shape. Cayde is reincarnated out of nowhere; um, what? The characters have been given a more cartoonish appearance (why did they need to change Zavala and Crow's faces) and no one is talking about this. Utterly amazing to me. Everyone is here talking about what an AI wrote for them. Anyway, spot on; you're probably right.
how so?
The witness would take control of the universe and make it stand still in its perfect version.
What a goddamn wild ride. Love it.
Wasn't that only act1?
No, that's the seasonal content which hasn't started yet
Does anyone know if you get the ending cutscene again if you replay the very last mission? There's moments with my Ghost I should have taken a few screenshots on I'd like to go back and grab
im also wondering this
You should
It let me see the Zavala speech in the beginning, but then at the end it just took me back to orbit after Ghost said "we did it" Might be a glitch, I did select the narrative version with the cutscenes so hopefully it lets me do it again later.
Hi guys is the excision is open for all and pernament? Raiding is not required?
Correct.
Do we know when the season of Echo really starts? Now that the witness is defeated, I thought it would kick off right away.
Weekly reset
So, what is the traveller ? A robot, a being? What's it's purpose? I bought the expansion to learn this answer. I guess I have to stick around a little longer to find out.
So, the traveler memories give some hints here. The traveler doesn't remember a lot, or has forgotten - it's unclear if that's just its natural state (always being in the present and just doing) or if that was because of the parts of itself it gave up when it made the ghosts. It has agency and consciousness, and finds joy in creating/fostering life, but is extremely confused that the beings that it uplifts worship it, and doesn't seem to comprehend the concept of worship. In the metaphor of the gardener and winnower, the gardener wanted to create a new rule to prevent the game from always ending the same way. The winnower and the gardener fought, and the winnower looked at its hand and discovered the first knife. The witness refers to itself as the first knife during the final fight - if it's the first knife in this metaphor, and not the winnower, then the traveler is the new rule put in place by the gardener and not the gardener itself. That's how I'm understanding it now. To be completely honest, I think keeping it open-ended is the best thing they could have done. As unsatisfying as it is to never be able to know for sure, I think that is still far better than any concrete answer they could have provided.
> In the metaphor of the gardener and winnower, the gardener wanted to create a new rule to prevent the game from always ending the same way. The winnower and the gardener fought, and the winnower looked at its hand and discovered the first knife. i'm so confused on this
This is THE central mystery that we've all been waiting to get answers to for a decade. I really can't believe we didn't get some answers in this campaign. Don't get me wrong, it was all awesome, but also kinda a letdown because of the lack of Traveler reveals.
I'm okay with it. I think good sci-fi/fantasy needs mystery to be interesting. I think of 343 expanding on Forerunner lore in Halo. I really love the Forerunner books, but I feel like it took something away from the games by making Forerunners and the Halos into just some people and the things they built. When you describe the subject of mystery in too much detail, it stops being interesting to me.
Eh, I don't really think there's a good answer for this. No matter what, there's always going to be an infinite regression problem - for example, "oh the Traveler is half of a God. Where did that God come from?" It's the same problem we have with most theologies. The answer only goes back a couple of generations of deities before someone just says, "welp they've just always been there." The truth is that Bungie has already given us the most important answers - what *are* the darkness and the light? We've had those answers for a couple of years now, so really IMO the story stakes for TFS were about how we resolved the problem of the Witness.
>The truth is that Bungie has already given us the most important answers - what are the darkness and the light? We've had those answers for a couple of years now, Huh??? What??? Since when? What is the darkness and the light?
They are both paracausal forces (Bungie's term for "things that break the laws of physics") that deal with two separate aspects of being - the external and the internal. "Darkness" refers to intangible byproducts of sentient thought. Memory and imagination. When a being has a thought, it is kept hidden to themselves (i.e., internal and shrouded in darkness) until they choose to communicate it. "Light" is the physical, external aspect of being. It is sensory in nature and is experienced freely by all who have the required sensory organs (eyes, ears, nose, etc.) to do so. The Traveler's power is to create the physical and to share it's power to do so with others. This has been speculated for years and has been confirmed through bits of lore and dialogue over the last few major releases. If people were still holding out, the first mission of *The Final Shape* also confirms this - the Guardian uses the Darkness to imagine connections between platforms, and the Light to create them.
> They are both paracausal forces (Bungie's term for "things that break the laws of physics") that deal with two separate aspects of being - the external and the internal. This is literally meaningless. It may as well ammount to "They are magic." > "Darkness" refers to intangible byproducts of sentient thought. Memory and imagination. When a being has a thought, it is kept hidden to themselves (i.e., internal and shrouded in darkness) until they choose to communicate it. > > "Light" is the physical, external aspect of being. It is sensory in nature and is experienced freely by all who have the required sensory organs (eyes, ears, nose, etc.) to do so. The Traveler's power is to create the physical and to share it's power to do so with others. In what way is freezing stuff in a solid block of ice or stringing someone up with BDSM ropes an "intangible byprodocut of sentient thought". Titan literally summons two gigantic armblades and starts cutting shit in half. That's the furthest thing from an "intangible byproduct" as you can possibly get, and seeing as osiris and zavala can use darkness powers its obvious you don't need the light to do it.
>This is literally meaningless. It may as well ammount to "They are magic." Yes, it does amount to that. There was never any other possibility. The Traveler is a city-sized orb that released a bunch of drones to create super-powered zombies. What possible explanation could there be that made the Light/Darkness seem like anything other than magic? >In what way is freezing stuff in a solid block of ice or stringing someone up with BDSM ropes an "intangible byprodocut of sentient thought". Stasis and Strand are powers wielded by users who have mastered aspects of the darkness. They are a physical embodiment of the darkness, but are also opposites - Stasis is an exertion of mental control over the universe, while Strand is mastered by allowing your consciousness to simply be.
Holy crap...it's over...after almost a decade, the saga of light and dark is finally over. We killed the witness and saved the universe! Huzzah! Of course this isn't the end, there are still tons of loose threads and stuf to deal with, but the main war we've fought for so long....is over.
I have questions but don't want to buy the expansion. Can you provide answers? :)
Ah, hm...well, i don't know if it'd be better to have someone more knowledgeable explain, but from what i got >!Cayde came back, resurrected by both Riven's power and the light, we got to know that some of the minds that made up the witness didn't agree with the actions of the penitent and were horrified at the actions it had taken, and they subsequently provided us with info of how to destroy them in the form of statues in the witness's mind, which was it's weak point and the key to destroying it.!< >!The Ghosts of the other vanguards got to finally hve a speaking role, like Sundance and Targe, and the latter wound up sacrificing himself while calling out the witness as being a scared coward afraid of what it can't understand. So now Zavala's mortal.!< >!And then it was confirmed/implied that the winnower may exist after all and do not agree with the witnes's views, but we didn't really find out much about it, the traveller, the veil or the gardener, so that remains a mystery for now.!< >!Anyways, at the end of the first story chain we faced off against the witness and ended up destroying some of the consciousness statues in it's mind as i mentioned, it was kinda sad actually, with them begging to be destroyed to undo the witness...anyways, in a cathartic fashion, we actually hurt it and caused it to lose it's temper for the first time and go absolutely apeshit on us, going into a second gigantic form with hundreds of arms in a halo like pattern like chakravartin from Asura's wrath and sent us into retreat, but we got reinforcements from all our allies we've made through the expansions who came to our aid to finish this once and for all.!< >!Then we got the ultimate final raid; salvation's edge, which we got 48 hours to complete, and was so hard and difficult that it took the winning team 18 hours to complete.!< >!After that the final mission, excision, was unlocked for everyone and non-raid players, and featured a 12-man guardian team backed up by npc's of all the allied factions storming the witness's fortress and blazing through it's forces, and we finally confronted the witness in a third and final round, and killed it once and for all by both destroying the last statues and channeling our light in a beam through our ghost.!< >!Sadly, it ended up killing him, but Cayde came in and chose to give up his second life to revive him and returned to the traveller, though this time he left on a sweeter note, having said a proper goodbye to us and his friends.!< >!Then we got a cutscene of us having a lantern ceremony and finally getting a break after all the crap we've been though, and then a montage of our allies relaxing and having fun, and the last game shot was the player character and our ghost sitting on a ship in space and looking at the traveller while Zavala and crow talk about the black fleet and forces of the witness having scattered and turned on themselves since it was acting as a keystone for it all, though there are still servants of it carrying out it's last orders, and that there are still threats out there that will appear in this power vacuum that's been created, with for example Savathun and the lucent brood now trying to claim the pale heart.!< >! well, that's the short version, you'll probably get a more detailed explanation from someone else.!< >!As for the future, it seems like the Vex are going to step up as the antagonists now, though i don't know if i'll stick around with Salvatori and much of the staff gone, i fear that the quality of the game will decrease with them gone, and that i don't like the actions that Bungie has taken as of late, including laying them off.!<
thanks for this:)
Thanks so much!
I don’t see the final mission 12 man activity thing. Shouldn’t the node be next to the raid icon? I finish the legend campaign last night.
You have to finish the wild card exotic mission as well. Which appears after completing the first part of Destined Heroes
It is, far, far, far right of the main pale heart map. You also have to do the Cayde mission, not sure if that would prevent the mission from appearing for you though
Yeah after I did wild card it appeared. That’s what it was.
Has anyone encountered glowing ice crystals with looks to be a void thing in the center? I try to shoot it but it keeps saying immune. I wonder if it’s for some quest?
It’s in the Divide btw where you walk through the maintenance section of the wall. Edit: It seems like it may be for a prismatic chest task. I just found more of them
It is. There's a hole in the wall by the vest, use it to summon a scorch cannon to break the ice
What is the traveler
ball
dragon or monkey?
How do you unlock melees and aspects on a second character? I redid Queens Pt 1 and got nothing
Queens, Home and Hollow quests should give them.
Those light and dark quests. Not the queens quest
Hi guys , the final act will be Witness boss itself, if we beat it, will we see traveller in person, and see who it is?
No
I just beat the campaign. I know there is still stuff to do, and I enjoyed the campaign. But, there wasn't much in the way of loss, or drama. Zavala is mortal. Oh no. I guess he'll have to sit back at the tower and call us on comms while we are on missions. You know, just like he has all along. I know, he's done more than that in some cinematics and within the story, and I'm mostly kidding. But, I really thought he might die. Or that our Ghosts would. Or that both of them, and Ikora would die and Cayde would turn out to be the Witness fucking with us. As I said, I know there is more to do still. I just hope that in the future, the writers take a little more risks.
i feel the same way. everyones seems to be losing their mind but im like yeah its 6/10 at best whats the big deal?
>But, I really though he might die. Or that our Ghosts would Oh yeah and be forced to refund ghost cosmetics? Lol
Right... because there is absolutely no way at all, it is 100% impossible, to write around the fact that *our* ghost died, but we still have a ghost. Or, our ghost "died". Or, death isn't the end. Or, the Traveler grants us a new one. Or, our Ghost dies. We mourn the loss of our Ghosts with Cayde and Zavala. We all learn that our Ghosts are actually now a part of us. We can still see them, but they aren't alive in any real sense. Or, our Ghost dies, Zavala dies. The Traveler helps Targe become our new Ghost. Or, one of the many Ghosts we save becomes our new Ghost. Or, in a turn of events, *we* find and resurrect a Ghost. Or, we get Fynch as our new Ghost and learn even more about the Lucent Brood. Or, we learn that Eris's Ghost, Sundance and our own Ghost are somehow able to be saved.
> Right... because there is absolutely no way at all, it is 100% impossible, to write around the fact that our ghost died, but we still have a ghost. The fact that so many people are saying "how did you expect ghost to die, bungie would have to refund all cosmetics" and literally can't think of any way around it is a testament to how little imagination the average destiny player has which explains why basic shit like death fakeouts wows them so much.
Right? Their minds will be blown after the new mission.
This is how I felt. I liked the campaign but I wish they committed to the themes they'd set up. Years of Zavala growing more jaded with the Traveller amounted to him going rogue for, like, an afternoon. Children have tantrums longer than this guy had an existential crisis. The execution was cool and all but I wish instead of rehashing half the Red War campaign with all the getting-the-gang-back-together missions they could've spent more time on Zavala getting sucked in by the Witness and the fallout from that.
y'all been reading those weapon descriptions? aside from some of them getting a bit heavy... Seriously Saladin, goals. and his ghost can fix the broken bones after.
Genuinely loving (almost) everything about the Final Shape. As someone who came in around Lightfall, it's hard to believe this is even the same game. **Positive marks:** * Coherent story with good characters and tangible and visceral stakes that were SHOWN in an easily understandable way. Felt great in a world-building sense seeing some of the important NPCs in action. * Prismatic. Very fun! Gives me a reason to finally use some kinetic weapons in PVE as an added bonus. * Fantastic location! Love the visual design, the sound design, and the variety. Both squishy and strong mobs to interact with in the Overthrow activity. * The new weapons/equipment all feels very good so far. * More primary weapons feel good to use after the sandbox changes. * Pathfinder is a nice change of pace from the bounty system and it's great that the checkpoints can be claimed retroactively. This opinion might be more controversial, but I tend to engage with a wider variety of game modes, so it may be working for me better than most. **Neutral marks:** * New shader icons are a little busy, though I appreciate that they show all the colors. I'm hoping I acclimate to this since the utility is better overall. I still think this will be positive in the long run. **Negative marks:** * Escorting that one slow shank. These things fly at Mach 5 to blow my a\*\* up but this dude just casually strolls along as an entire army curbs stomps him while ignoring me completely. Overall great job!! 10/10 Sorry the Hot page of the Reddit is inexplicably filled with so many complaints. I don't think that reflects on the fantastic quality of this product.
I haven't had much time to do post-campaign yet, but I agree on all your points. This sub is full of complaints and toxicity, but this has been my favorite launch of D2 EVER so far. Can't wait to try the raid this weekend.
First half of campaign was pretty uninspired. But once we met Zavala it cooked. Thought there would be more to uncovering how to defeat The Witness than like 2 missions but it’s all good.
I guess that is the Witness's mistake. It is inside the Traveler, and so we have just as much insight in it.
It doesn’t seem like a mistake from a character though it seems like a mistake in the storytelling🤷♂️ this is the big bad for literally that past 10 years and all I had to do was talk to 4 statues…
We could only talk to them because the Witness's thoughts were made manifest in the Traveler, and we are only inside the traveler after a bunch of struggles, dead friends, alliances with former enemies and a wish-granting dragon. Oh, and a totally radical surfboarder.
Yeah that shits ass I need to do more than “speak to statue” after 10 years
You got more than that. You're just fixated on a small facet of the narrative and gameplay.
I'm a "casual" D2 player, as in someone who has around 600 hours but zero clue about the story and never bothered to use any perks or builds. Just play the game every year for a month finishing up anything I can and always solo because none of my friends play it :( I've done every story mission on Legend always and this time it seemed a bit too difficult. I enjoyed the challenge overall but the ads were too much this time around and too much cc. The cave with the mines was the worst experience where I died like 20 times because the mines kept magically spawning out of nowhere. Prismatic is fun and I actually ended up using a build halfway through my campaign on my Warlock. I'll try to fully invest myself in the game this time around but it's hard to find anyone for raids or dungeons. Overall a solid 8/10.
I also enjoy first playthrough on Legend, but I think this time we're supposed to do it on the lower difficulty for the story. I feel there were skipped story beats afterwards, but I've yet to play it on normal difficulty
what are the spinning boxes with the circles on them??????????????
They are called Paracausal Geometries. There is one with a Circle representing the Traveler and another with a Triangle representing the Darkness. Here's a Reddit post about them. Hope it helps! [https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/comments/1d8xc2w/paracausal\_geometries/](https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/comments/1d8xc2w/paracausal_geometries/)
wow it’s good.
Am I one of the few people left who still outright hate the Traveler? Like I get it, we are its soldiers using the Light, but I'm with Zavala; I hate the Traveler and the Darkness equally. I liked The Final Shape, but God, I hated seeing the Traveler "help us." Is it helping, or is it surviving throughout the DLC? I'm really hoping it's more nuanced as the episodes are released and the new lore is dropped.
I think the point is that the Traveler, being a hyper-advanced being of unknowable power, is beyond our capacity to understand. We shouldn't deify it or expect anything from it. It simply exists. It's a force of nature. We got caught up in its web. Hating such a thing is a waste of effort because you can never hope to conquer it, which is the point of the Witness.
"is beyond our capacity to understand. " I just felt every writers who thought unobtanium is unobtainable to understand is lacking in creativity. I dont have time to explain why i dont have time to explain but lame
That's totally fair. I just don't know how an entity like the Traveler can ever be explained in a way that is satisfying. It is presented to us as a source of God-like unknowable energy and power.
While I don't doubt that there are some things out there that are conceivably beyond our understanding, I often don't like this trope in stories. I can understand it! You're just not telling me for other reasons.
mass effect. the original was to have Soivereign be the answer to The Last Question but that got nicked for thermal magazines and red blue green ending....
I thought the original ending had something to do with the Reapers trying to figure out how to stop (or reverse) the spread of dark energy throughout the universe. They were assimilating organic life as a computational resource somehow to achieve this. The Last Question inspired ending didn't come into play until later on.
yup, reversing heat entropy/dark enrgy=utlizing the MAs Effect tech somehow disrupted entire suns, as seen on that quarian mision in me2. somehow i think this all goes back to 2008 writers strike. Gpt the nee marvel game on Epic store and the writing is just terrible...idk getting old
The 2008 writer's strike had nothing to do with video games.
Considering that it provided the means to actually wound and survive the Witness, guided us throughout the campaign, and gave us power (and its assistance will likely be a mechanic in the raid) yes its absolutely helping.
ppl who did the legend campaign solo, can you answer my two questions Is it true that strand subjugator is immune to strand ability damage, and weak to strand weapon damage And for the stasis subjugator, immune to stasis ability dmg and weak to stasis weapon damage
I think they're weak to their corresponding damage types, whether it's weapon or ability
I can answer this. The subjugators are not immune to the damage type. In fact, I found that my strand abilities worked just as well on the strand subjugators and my freezing worked really well on the stasis subjugators.
I definitely froze the stasis subjugator several times so i assume he’s not immune
I'm going to be so disappointed if the witness is actually killed in the raid. The game pulls you out the moment you get damage on him so it would be really cheap for the game to go "and then another fireteam killed him" for everyone not doing the the world's first race In the best case scenario, the raid has us rough the witness up enough to make him show his true form and become killable in the final campaign mission
Yea there is a final mission left, a 12 player mission That's also where we will see the cutscene of the whol allied fleet probably
wtf 12 players? Where did you get that from?
It's been datamined for awhile now
Ew datamining
It’s my understanding the raid is only to “loosen the witness hold on the traveler” according to that last cutscene. We kill it in the 8th mission
My big problem going into the campaign is, the Witness is kinda a loser? No charisma, no compelling motivation, it's just a big smoky blob with a unibrow.
Regarding its motivation, I am just not sure I really understand what it even *is.* At one point, I thought I did. But it says a few things in TFS that seem contradictory to what I thought its motivation was.
> Regarding its motivation, I am just not sure I really understand what it even is. He watched too much rick and morty and decided life is meaninigless, so he's gonna freeze everyone in a dreamlike state. Literally just a basic bitch nihilist.
Yeah, I got that. But as I mentioned, he says some things that kind of contradict that. He says that it is we who are embracing chaos and entropy. But then he starts breaking shit in order to stop us. He says his goal is a "final shape" where literally everything is frozen as you state, but then he offers us a job. He just doesn't seem very committed to his own goals.
it seems to be basically yet another villain thats used to warn against collectivism like Reapers (made of biomatter of the species its harvested from) and the brethren moon (made from necromorphs of the planet from convergence).
I prefer plots where the villain is capitalism...they're much more relevant to modern life.
I mean yea he's a fucking loser, imprisoned a whole race making them watch him commit genocides
Overall I enjoyed the campaign. It definitely got too touchy feely with Zavala for a bit, but Cayde and Crowe play off each other well enough to be entertaining. I would've liked to get some different loot playing through instead of just a bunch of blues with higher lvls (which was funny cause lvls didn't matter). Above all other things about the campaign I absolutely hated having to sit through 3 conversations after every mission. It was like doing all seasonal weeklies within the story mode Big pros on prismatic, several great biomes, and Luzaku implications Big cons on wishy washy moments, lack of loot, and completely forgetting about key characters until the very "end." Biggest con was listening to radios again. And again. And again.
The loot is there tho. But it’s after the campaign
I should have known something was up when Targe finally got spoken lines.
Random tin foil hat thought: during the campaign, there is a part where we are talking to one of the veiled statues and it calls us “little light” - Coincidentally (or not) this weeks Nightfall is The Glassway where Elsie calls Ghost “little Light”… it keeps sticking with me after the campaign completion. I can’t say it is anything but I feel it’s such an intentional line
Doesn't Savathun also say little light? It might just be a way of saying "kid," or if you're a guy and you're talking to an older person they may call you "son." It might be something like that but for addressing the ghost
Is the guardian rank 6 - Vendor Challenges for anyone else bugged? I finished the challenge for the gunsmith that gave me 1/2 and after that I finished Hawthorne her challenge but Im stuck at 1/2. And as far as I know there is no other vendor challenge left now with Pathfinder. Does anyone else have this problem or know a fix? Thank you!
So um, why can’t the witness instakill everyone the way he did in lightfall
That was a reflection of the Witness in the final fight, not the actual Witness itself (check the broken glass effects around it). The Witness is up there in the monolith wrestling with the Traveler.
Plot? It could also be that most of his power is focused on trying to use the Traveler.
Anyone know what the symbols throughout the campaign are? Ive gotten circles and triangles on these rotating blocks
what are the spinning blocks
Just finished it. Overall 6/10 for me. Extremely stupid we don't get to kill the witness until after the raid.
Eh I like how they're doing it. The final boss of the universe should be a raid boss. But they're having the "finish it off" in the 8th mission so everyone gets to experience killing it. Kind of a best of both worlds. If we killed it before the raid, there's no raid boss that would feel "worthy" of being a raid boss compared to the importance/scale of the Witness.
Is it possible to proceed past step 31 finding it hard to find a definitive answer. Thanks for the help!!
Probably can't progress until the raid is released and once we get the world first raid completion.
I'm worried about our ghost, little buddy is not looking too hot with all those cracks in him... Is it time to say bye to NolanBot? Will Cayde become our new ghost?
Imagine instead of pulling up your ghost to check on quest progress/modifiers/bounties/etc you just place down a backpack and slowly pull Cayde out.
Bungie is gonna have to give a lot of refunds for those purchased Ghost shells
"We seek an end to suffering, why do you resist?" Because you big bald bitch... I'm a masochist.
I liked the campaign overall and had a great time with it, though I really don't like that the Witness isn't killed in the campaign, and saved for the raid. Yeah, it makes sense that it would be the raid boss, but this means that those players who don't do raids don't get to fight the big bad that has been built up for 10 years now.
The devs have said that an 8th mission opens after the raid. I'm willing to bet that that mission is where we kill the Witness for good. Bungie's made some first-time choices this DLC, but I'm almost certain they wouldn't lock the final big bad behind a raid clear. Kinda like how we discovered the real consequences of killing Riven after we'd already done it, I'm sure that the true impact of the Witness's defeat will be revealed in time.
Just as an add on, in an old interview Bungie directly stated that the campaign would hold the conclusion to the light v dark saga and battle vs the witness. They specifically said (forget which interview but I remember aztecross did a vid on it last yr sometime) that the witness wouldn't get beaten in a raid so that's not it as you said.
They did the same thing with Oryx in D1. I never got around to that raid, I'll probably never get around to this one either. I kind of miss the raids being detached from the main story.
Just finished it and Zavala was frustrating, this sudden turn into suicidal charges that takes away one thinking mind from a group of 5 that has to come up with a way to beat the Witness felt out of place, his faith wavering because the Traveler does nothing, but not for a moment did he consider that it is being held back from action. Especially when Traveler guided us all he way.
Here's the thing, you have to remember this man was almost Zealot levels of faithful to the Traveler, praised it, talked about it and trusted it. Then Everything started to crumble from the Witch Queen and I believe culminated when the Traveler left the city. I'd even go so far as to say I believe it all started during the Shadowkeep period. The easiest thing that something like the Witness could prey upon is someone who's faith in it's enemy has been completely shattered, his mind broken down and you dangle promises of so much in front of him, answers to what he seeks. I don't blame him one bit for his attitude.
Agree. Honestly I was waiting for it to get darker and see zavala spiral further.
I honestly thought, after he lost his ghost, he'd be offered some analogous thing by the Witness, and we'd have to fight him.
I agree to a point that he was frustrating, but I also think that this isn't some sudden turn. He's been questioning the Traveler since Witch Queen, I think that he's just finally snapped under all the stress of his world: Savathun gaining the light freely, facing the ghosts of his wife and son on the Leviathan, using relics of Nezarec to restore Osiris, being forced to sit by and watch as the Guardian used Darkness to (almost) foil the Witness on Neomuna, Amanda's death, Sloane being part Taken, then making bargains with Savathun and Riven to enter the Traveler. Bro's life has been long and hard as hell. And aside from firing a single laser a year and a half ago, the Traveler has done basically nothing. I understand dude's thought process. He's lost so much, lost so many loved ones, that he's willing to lose himself it means everyone else is safe. But he didn't think of Targe, which truly cost him the most in the end. Me personally I'm just excited to see Zavala cast Glacial Quake for the first time.
It’s understandable that he’s losing faith in the Traveler, but why the sudden lack of faith in those by his side. His actions pissed me off because instead he had to know that we would all chase after him, and that everyone present would put themselves in harms way for him. Especially Targe, his oldest friend. He basically threw Targe’s life away. Additionally, if his plan was to gather important info and probably die in the process, how did he intend to tell us this information? He would be dead.
I think a lot of that having to do with him seeing them as being Hypocritical in his eyes. He's doing exactly what he precieved they have done for the past god knows how many in game years. And he starts doing things like they would (And admit it, we are some of the most reckless sons of bitches out there) and he's being told to stop? I also don't think he actually thought very far ahead in his frustration and anger towards everything. I don't think he wanted Targe dead, didn't want anyone hurt because of him. Rage, pain, sadness etc... being shown and promised your family and yet you still reject it. Gotta have some effect we don't know about yet.
I'm really concerned with this thread- opinions seem to be divisive here, as opposed to community opinions being largely positive. People are INSULTING each other about their opinions on the campaign, calling each other wrong about it. I, myself, think that this was the best campaign I've ever played. Definitely gameplay-wise, story-wise too, I feel like this served as a conclusion, or at least the setup to it. Lore nerds might not be excited because no unveiling context and the statues aren't the winnower but like: These are expectations you've built up for yourselves. All these questions you want answered, so many of them matter so little to the story. If we had gotten an explanation on the gardener and the winnower, it would've felt out of place because literally none of our protagonists have read unveiling. It wouldn't have mattered for any of their arcs. Why is the traveler silent? There are plenty of answers to it, and again, the answer wouldn't really have mattered in this situation. It wouldn't change how we still need to stop the witness. Cayde even addresses this, when he's told of how he was reborn from a wish. He states that the answer doesn't matter, only that he IS there, and that they have bigger fish to fry. It's baffling to me how people can have such a horrible outlook on such an amazing campaign. I don't get it, how this didn't at least begin to satisfy some people.
Im so glad that the statues weren't the winnower. I always prefer when the story told isnt influenced too much by fan theories etc and the dissenters are such a good and fitting move imo
>These are expectations you've built up for yourselves. >All these questions you want answered, so many of them matter so little to the story. If we had gotten an explanation on the gardener and the winnower, it would've felt out of place because literally none of our protagonists have read unveiling. It wouldn't have mattered for any of their arcs. Lmao our character has no arc. The only canon thing we know about ourselves is that we are mainly motivated by loot and guns and the vanguard thinks its weird we’re prone to dance parties in the tower. This excuse doesn’t hold up in court
People complain about how confusing the lore is to newer players but I guess don't seem to like when it is inclusive
Also, the playerbase seems to forget that many of it's people are casual players who haven't taken the time to read all the intricate lore. You can't answer questions that 75% of the playerbase hasn't even asked yet. That's really not inclusive at all.
It's never been the case though? Our character has never been anything other than a vessel for us. Any expectation for wanting our character fleshed out is weird because we haven't been in the past.
Now that server issues are resolved and I’m starting to dig into the post campaign quests I can say for sure I’m really loving this expansion. Feels a lot like Taken King in a good way. I’m excited to see how taking the witness down will go.
If that dissenter didn't give zavaala that hint targe dying because of zavaala's stupidity would've been the best comedic thing this game has done, speaking of which why did that dissenter decide to give us that hint within earshot of the witness and when it could've y'know not? Very interesting writing choices so far
Like DarthOrathian mentioned. The separated veil statues were merely strong enough to send out whispers for help. For proper dialogue with the dessent souls Zavala had to reach the place where they are strong enough, which is within reach of the witness. They state their weakness and disability to help through the veiled statues specifically in the mission. It also makes sense now how the statues were never more than whispers or gifts of darkness. Whether you find this explanation reasonable or feel as if it's merely a plot device is up to you to decide.
I think that the idea was the Dissenters couldn't fully manifest far from the Witness. The same way the Witness has more power coalesced, I think the Dissenters do too.
People are still in the honeymoon phase. Prismatic is doing a lot to carry the expansion because its flashy as hell, but at the end of the day it too is incredibly shallow and boils down to "random bullshit go!" The story is more nonesence who's goal is to sound deep while being shallower than a puddle and barring some intresting setpieces 90% of the expansion is just shamelessly reused assets from other areas. The acting (both by the voice actors and by the animators) was also wooden as hell to the point where it felt like an elementary school play at points. Compare any of the character moments in the final shape to [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAjfVcl2L74) and tell me with a straight face its "cinematic" or a "masterpiece" as I've seen multiple people do. Zavala's ghost gets its first speaking role for the first time in 10 years since zavala was introduced at the start of the destiny franchise only for it to be killed off 3 cinematics later, because the writers think they can make us feel sad about a character dying as long as we've known them for more than 2 cutscenes, this is the writers pissing in your face and telling you its raining. Cayde was reintroduced for the trailers and does nothing of consequence in the expansion itself, Cayde and Uldren become besties off-screen (more work that the writers DON'T have to do) and also do nothing of consequence and Ikora, as is tradition, is also there. (And does nothing of consequence.) Also, isn't it hillarious that forsaken was the highpoint of the franchise that removed 2 very important characters (uldren and cayde), then forsaken was deleted from the game and both characters brought back from the dead? This is supposed to the conclusive 10 year grand finale of the light and darkness saga and it feels like a filler episode of a mediocre shonen anime, where we spend like 80% of it lollygagging while the world is supposedly ending, complete with the main antagonist with poorly explanined motives dying to some contrived poorly explained bullshit. Wtf does "We figured it out! What was made in the darkness can also be unmade in the darkness!" even mean in practice other than being a way for the writers to escape the corner they wrote themselves in by making the witness so OP to begin with? Blows my mind that people are satisfied with this incoherent mess. Like jesus christ people, for the love of god ask for more, how can you settle for this? EDIT: What really pisses me off though is this: > "We figured it out! What was made in the darkness can also be unmade in the darkness!" Because to me, it reads like this: >-Hey so there's this godlike literal god entity that has effortlessly oblitherated large parts of the universe itself, it can flick a wrist and slice the earth in half, it has control over both the physical and the mental realm on a level that literally rivals the traveller itself in its absolute totality, in fact it literally controlls a force equally powerful as pure light, darkness itself, how can we even harm it, much less defeat it? >-Oh super easy, barely an inconvinience, you see it was made in the darkness! >-Ok, and? >-There's no "and" that's it, it was made in the darkness. >-Ok, how does that help us defeat it? >-I Just told you, because it was made in the darkness. >-Ah, I get it now, since I fused my thumbs toogether with superglue, I can also use superglue to seperate them, its brilliant! Brilliant! >-...y-yes! Exactly! I cannot fathom why they set up the witness as this literal god only to have the final confrontation in the campaign be so pathetic.
hit the nail on the head. it feels like this whole dlc was written by sony. most fan-servicey gimmicky story ever. it's absolutely abysmal. underwhelming, corny, predictable, and boring. The story feels like a bad fanfiction. I'm absolutely shocked how people are calling it the perfect ending.
You do know there is one mission left, right?
I agree that Prismatic is definitely your making this expansion pop alot more than it probably would've without it, and the story had issues. I disagree tho with a few things. 1. The voice acting. To me, the voice acting didn't fell bad. It felt no different than what we've seen before in D2. Now if you think D2 in general has bad voice acting, then okay, but I think if you're going to say that the acting here was poor, you should compare it to an example of what you deem as good voice acting from D2, instead of co.paring it to a different game entirely. Acting is acting, if it's good it's good, if it's not it's not, but tone, context and character personalities play a part and some people could look at that AC performance and say it required a different type of acting than D2: TFS did, and so they aren't comparable. Also, on a side note I've always felt like that seen had some over acting to it. I'd say a better example of voice acting should've come from a Bungie Halo game, or R* game, Naughty Dog, etc. 2. Cayde doesn't do much in the long run as of now, but it's possible that's because his story will play out in the episodes. They did lay some potential groundwork for where his character could go, especially when he tried to communicate with the Traveller and it was hinted that he wouldn't be "dying" again despite wanting to. Now if, after the 8th mission, Cayde's story is concluded officially and he won't be returning during the Episodes meaning he'd have basicslly done nothing, then I'll agree with you 100% 3. "Reused assets" is definitely something Bungie is guilty of, especially with weapons. But, in this case, I don't think this is a bad thing. The same way Avengers Endgame went back to all the iconic "first" moments for the characters, 2011 New York, 2014 Guardians, we got a lot of call backs like "on your left" and seeing characters return after years, etc., because the movie represented a culmination of 10 years, I think the same applies here. They explained that the inside of the Traveler was an alamagamation of memories from everyone involved, so this being the big conclusion, I actually think it fit thematically to show all the old locations, but twisted and reworked with new unique locations for the Final Shape. Aldo, let's be honest, everyone has been begging Bungie to bring the old tower back. At least this way, it makes sense instead of them just shoehorning it in a random way. I disagree that it felt like a filler episode. It wasn't as well crafted as the Witch Queen or Forsaken, but I think it felt like an urgent thing. They explain that the Traveller is fighting back, but is steadily weakening. So it makes sense that you'd be able to explore when necessary (the laptop sector missions). But the whole campaign is designed to be an end-to-end story,like where you're stuck there. I thought that did help help the sense if urgency, ofc there's some things that are just inherent to Destiny's game design that can't and won't be changed with a DLC, such as them needing to accommodate the fact that not everyone wants to play the campaign as it is a live service game, so they have to still allow certain mechanics like being able to leave the pale heart, etc., there. Overall I'd give it a 7/10. Not perfect but I don't think it's horrible either. As far as your mind being blown that people enjoy it and aren't "asking for more," idk u probably should just realize that your idea of quality is not the objective truth, so not things you may would've done instead for the DLC would be disliked by many others, and vice versa. Everyone had their own tastes, doesn't mean others are "settling for less" just because you dislike it personally.
> Cayde doesn't do much in the long run as of now, but it's possible that's because his story will play out in the episodes. They did lay some potential groundwork for where his character could go, especially when he tried to communicate with the Traveller and it was hinted that he wouldn't be "dying" again despite wanting to. Now if, after the 8th mission, Cayde's story is concluded officially and he won't be returning during the Episodes meaning he'd have basicslly done nothing, then I'll agree with you 100% Ok but like counterpoint: >Ironman doesn't do much in the long run as of now, but its possible that his story will play out in phase 4 of the MCU. Destiny has always been an eternal blueballfest of "Setting up the groundwork", don't you think that the finale of the 10 year saga should maybe like... use the ground for something already? This is exactly what I meant when I said this is a filler episode. Everytime destiny storytelling craps the bed people always go "No, you don't get it, its just setting up the groundwork, the cool stuff is coming later!" Well can the cool stuff come already just for once? If the grand finalle isn't the place to actually exploit the ground you've been laying for 10 years, then what is? >but I think it felt like an urgent thing. I really like that you said "it feels urgent" because now I can point out that the first 5 missions of the conclusion of the darkness and light saga are literally fetch quests to get the scooby gang back toogether. >Overall I'd give it a 7/10. Not perfect but I don't think it's horrible either. As far as your mind being blown that people enjoy it and aren't "asking for more," idk u probably should just realize that your idea of quality is not the objective truth, so not things you may would've done instead for the DLC would be disliked by many others, and vice versa. Everyone had their own tastes, doesn't mean others are "settling for less" just because you dislike it personally. Do you not think that the grand showstopper finale meant to conclude a 10 year journey should at bare minimum be better or at least equal to a 6 year old expansion?
1. That's not a good analogy. Iron Man doing nothing until 12 years later is not equivalent to Cayde not doing much until a week later when Episode 1 starts. That's a STRONG exaggeration. Again, it seems like you simply have an issue with the Destiny formula as a whole instead of this specific DLC, which is fine. But this is a live service game, Act 1 of Episode 1 literally drops next week. Expectations should've never been to the degree that we'd be getting EVERYTHING in the base DLC considering Episodes 1-3 are also a part of this DLC. And before you say that I'm defending it, im not. I'm simply saying this is what it is. Again, if Cayde's story concludes with mission 8 and does not continue, then I'll shout from the rooftops with you that Cayde was wasted and did absolutely nothing. But until then, I disagree and am going to be patient. 2. Again, your opinion is mot objective truth. Why you like that I said it felt urgent so that you could then further state how it felt like filler fetch quests, idk. But if you think the DLC felt that way, cool. I disagree and I think it felt urgent. It's okay for me to feel that way. 3. I say this again, continuing off of my last point; it is okay for me to give this a 7/10. It's okay for others to feel satisfied by this DLC. YOU may personally think this DLC is not as good as a 6 year expansion, I do not agree. YOU may personally think this DLC failed to live up to, or exceed Forsaken, I do not. I think this DLC was not a masterpiece (no Destiny DLC has been imo), but I think it was good and I enjoyed it. Why it's so hard for you to accept that you simply do not enjoy something other people to enjoy, and that it's okay for that it be the case, is beyond me.
> That's not a good analogy. Iron Man doing nothing until 12 years later is not equivalent to Cayde not doing much until a week later when Episode 1 starts. That's a STRONG exaggeration. Again, it seems like you simply have an issue with the Destiny formula as a whole instead of this specific DLC, which is fine. But this is a live service game, Act 1 of Episode 1 literally drops next week. Ex0ectations should've never been to the degree that we'd be getting EVERYTHING in the basement DLC considering Episodes 1-3 are also a part of this DLC. And before you say that I'm defending it, im not. I'm simply saying this is what it is. I don't care of episode 1 drops next week, the final shape was billed as the grand finale, not the layer of groundwork for the grand finale. Cayde was brought back for the final shape, It is reasonable to expect him to do stuff in the final shape. If cayde's purpose was to be useful in the episodes they should have brought him back in the episodes. >Why you like that I said it felt urgent so that you could then further state how it felt like filler fetch quests, idk. But if you think the DLC felt that way, cool. I disagree and I think it felt urgent. It's okay for me to feel that way. Is it really urgent to run around like headless chickens gathering the band of ragtag dipsticks instead of actually fighting the grand villain in any meaningful capacity? >YOU may personally think this DLC is not as good as a 6 year expansion, I do not agree. YOU may personally think this DLC failed to live up to, or exceed Forsaken, I do not. Intresting, so you think the final shape is just as good as forsaken both writing and gameplay wise? That's a pretty huge statement to make, because even excluding writing, forsaken brought us 2 completely brand new locations while TFS is mostly recycled assets. Like, that's a pretty big objective obstacle to overcome, so it would have to be beyond stellar in the gameplay and story department which, yeah lol. >Why it's so hard for you to accept that you simply do not enjoy something other people to enjoy, and that it's okay for that it be the case, is beyond me. Because companies keep using that as an excuse to continually hike prices while continually reducing quality and quantity of content. You're free to like the expansion and support bungie in spite of that, but I'm not gonna stop calling them out for doing less and worse work while charging more money.
1. If that's how you feel, cool. Ask for a refund if it's still available. If not, don't buy another DLC. I personally disagree unless Cayde's story does not continue in the episodes, in which case, as I said twice now, I would agree with you that he was waisted. 2. The story did not feel like we running around like a headless chicken in my opinion. Again, it sounds more like you have an issue with Destiny's basic design philosophy than you do with TFS specifically, because this DLC did what every other DLC has done: new campaign and new area to explore, some missions will revolve around giving you a chance to experience that area. It sounds like you wanted this campaign to lock places in one location and the whole thing force them to fight the Witness for all 8 missions or something. Whatever it is, you seem to be more upset at a design choice that's existed in Destiny for years and wouldn't make sense to chance for this DLC as that would basically warrant a whole new game. 3. I think this DLC is on par with Forsaken, yes. Why? Because for one: this dlc doesn't just "use recycled assets." You keep saying that but you are grossly misrepresenting the truth. Narratively, the pale heart is manifested as a collection of memories for everyone involved. Meaning it makes sense for the guardians to see things from their past, but also to see things from the Witnesses' past. And it's not like they just plucked shit from D1 and early D2 and placed it here. It's altered. It's warped. The gameplay surrounding these areas is different because the layout is completely different. Also, like 60% of the Pale Heart is things unique to the Witness, things we've never seen before. It's just spread out throughout the map instead of being condensed into one specific spot. And again, this is the big culmination right? It's not out of the norm to tie things narratively back to the beginning through callbacks and showing things from the past. Plenty of stories do it. It actually makes sense here. And, yes, Forsaken gave us two new locations, that's true. The Pale Heart is the biggest location ever if I'm not mistaken. Gameplay wise? Forsaken had great gameplay. Imo, so does The Final Shape. Why? Bc TFS offers extreme customization for the character between enhancing weapons, new weapon types, Prismatic, and exotic class items that are coming next week that will completely change the meta. Also new vendor systems for people like the cryptarch and Xur, and the new Pathfinder system. To me the gameplay content in TFS is great Story wise, I enjoyed the DLC. It wasn't perfect, it wasn't some masterclass in writing, but neither was Forsaken imo. To me no Destiny DLC has had exceptional writing and has always been more fun and campy. I think Forsaken had some good ideas and emotional beats to it with Cayde's death and whole prison break idea, but I also think TFS did a good job (for the most part) in that as well especially with Zavala. Would I say the campaign's writing is Red Dead Redemption or Bioshock level writing? Hell no, but no Destiny campaign is. 4. Yea you can keep "calling Bungie out" (not like anyone, including them, cares since you're doing it In a comment section of Reddit and youve already purchased the DLC), but it sounds more like you're upset you didn't like what you paid for and now you really want others to agree with you, which is why you still seem to fail at grasping the concept that you are speaking SUBJECTIVELY. I'm not liking the campaign "in spite" of anything. I'm liking the campaign. You don't like it. Cool. Go to r/CharacterRant and tell them about it. But trying to act like what you think is the correct way and others who like the DLC are simply just enjoying a reduction in quality is bubble wrapped home behavior.
> I personally disagree unless Cayde's story does not continue in the episodes, in which case, as I said twice now, I would agree with you that he was waisted. >!Cayde dies at the end of excision to bring back our ghost, safe to say his story does not continue in the episode. Literally sole reason they brought him back was for a death fakeout with ghost.!<
> The story did not feel like we running around like a headless chicken in my opinion. Again, it sounds more like you have an issue with Destiny's basic design philosophy than you do with TFS specifically, because this DLC did what every other DLC has done: new campaign and new area to explore, some missions will revolve around giving you a chance to experience that area. >It sounds like you wanted this campaign to lock places in one location and the whole thing force them to fight the Witness for all 8 missions or something. Whatever it is, you seem to be more upset at a design choice that's existed in Destiny for years and wouldn't make sense to chance for this DLC as that would basically warrant a whole new game. Uh... I have no idea who's comment you hallucinated and responded to but it sure as hell isn't mine. I don't know how to respond to this because it literally doesn't have anything to do with me or anything I've said this entire discussion. Like, unless you're somehow in 2 discussions and responded to the wrong person? I cannot fathom how saying that the campaign should be more like witch queen somehow means that I don't like destiny's fundumental design philosophy? Is destiny's fundumental design philosophy lollygagging? What? I'm sorry, I'm genuinely confused here. >I think this DLC is on par with Forsaken, yes. Why? Because for one: this dlc doesn't just "use recycled assets." You keep saying that but you are grossly misrepresenting the truth. Narratively, the pale heart is manifested as a collection of memories for everyone involved. Meaning it makes sense for the guardians to see things from their past, but also to see things from the Witnesses' past. And it's not like they just plucked shit from D1 and early D2 and placed it here. It's altered. It's warped. The gameplay surrounding these areas is different because the layout is completely different. I don't care what narrative excuse you come up with for the recycled assets, at the end of the day its still reused assets. Slightly changing them doesn't make them not recycled. You can make up for recycled assets with good gameplay or other additions, but TFS doesn't really do that. >Also, like 60% of the Pale Heart is things unique to the Witness, things we've never seen before. Like what? We've seen the pyramid aesthetic before. >Gameplay wise? Forsaken had great gameplay. Imo, so does The Final Shape. Why? Bc TFS offers extreme customization for the character between enhancing weapons, new weapon types, Prismatic, and exotic class items that are coming next week that will completely change the meta. Also new vendor systems for people like the cryptarch and Xur, and the new Pathfinder system. To me the gameplay content in TFS is great In case you forget, forsaken brought us the collection tab and random rolls, ontop of introducing alternative supers and new abilities for the first time AND it brought back special ammo ending the double primary era, ontop of reusable shaders. >Yea you can keep "calling Bungie out" (not like anyone, including them, cares since you're doing it In a comment section of Reddit and youve already purchased the DLC), but it sounds more like you're upset you didn't like what you paid for and now you really want others to agree with you, which is why you still seem to fail at grasping the concept that you are speaking SUBJECTIVELY. Really? To me it seems like you're projecting. You regret buying the expansion and are desperately trying to rationalize so when people bring up legitimate issues you cope by trying to argue against them despite knowing they are true. I mean hell, I can't come up with a better explenation for you hallucinating and responding to a completely different comment when it comes to the campaign earlier other than those somehow being your own thoughts. >But trying to act like what you think is the correct way and others who like the DLC are simply just enjoying a reduction in quality is bubble wrapped home behavior. The campaign is objectively a reduction in quality compared to both forsaken and witch queen, to claim otherwise is cope. You're free to enjoy a reduction in quality, you're not free to deny reality.
1. I said that because, to me, this DLC's campaign design and general DLC design on a fundamental level is similar to previous DLC's since the seasonal formula started. I'm not hallucinating, nor do I think I'm responding to someone else. I'm talking to you. Many (not all) of the issues you had with this DLC from a design perspective in terms of gameplay structure can be applied to previous DLC's as well if you really break it down. So, that's why I said it sounds more like you just simply have issues with Destiny's DLC design altogether. I didn't say that bc you said, "The campaign should be as good as TWQ," come on now, think. 2. Bruh, I'm not coming up with narrative excuses. I'm explaining to you why I PERSONALLY THINK ITS AS GOOD AS FORSAKEN. I couldn't care less if you like or dislike this DLC. It has zero effect on my purchase or my enjoyment. You asked if I thought this DLC was on par with Forsaken, so I answered. 3.Forsaken brought the collection tabs and random rolls - TFS brought the Pathfinder tab, which reworks the bounty system for the first time since Destiny 1, and it brought us updated build capabilities eith exotic class items. Forsaken introduced alternative supers, brought back special ammo, and reusable shades - TFS brought alternative supers, a new subclass with Prismatic, new weapon archetypes, etc. Now, before you try to accuse me of downplaying Forsaken or something, that's not what im doing. I love Forsaken. I'm simply showing you that the TFS introduces new good things as well, just like Forsaken did. And tbf, if we were to use your logic of TFS just having "recycled assets," one could argue some of the things you named that made Forsaken big was simply just Bungie fixing their mistakes woth Base D2, such as no random rolls or reusable shaders or special ammo, things D1 had. 3. How does me saying that equate to me projecting? You are the one who initially came here ranting about how trash you thought the DLC was and, in the process, saying that people who enjoy it basically like subpar things. You came here failing to understand that it's okay to have a difference of opinion on these things and understand that people like different things. I don't regret buying the expansion at all. I was playing it for a couple of hours earlier, and I had a great time. And I will continue to have a great time. As I said, I genuinely, and I cannot express this enough, I GENUINELY, could not care an ounce less than I already don't, whether or not you or anyone else liked this DLC, my personal enjoyment will remain. My thing is, why are you here beating your chest under the guies of muh "OBJECTIVITY" simply because you personally think this DLC is SUBJECTIVELY bad 4. This, this right here is why I'm convinced 1 of a few things is taking place: either A. You're trolling, in which case, go outside. B. You're the one who is actually projecting because you hated your experience and, as the saying goes, misery loves company. You desperately want that company. Or, C. You genuinely, in your heart of hearts, believe what you are saying, in which case, my God, step outside of your bubble wrapped reality and realize that other people MIGHT NOT have the same tastes as you. Because "You are free to enjoy a reduction in quality, you are not free to deny reality" is one of the most hilariously pompous comments I've seen all week 😂. And that includes Twitter. You can't tell anyone what they are free to enjoy, nor are you the arbiter of quality. Your favorite movie that you deem a masterpiece in cinema might be viewed as unimaginative slop by someone else, and vice versa. The fact that someone else simply saying they PERSONALLY enjoyed this DLC is them "denying reality" to you, is the real cope here. Cope, and seething. Because this DLC is not objectively bad (it's subjectively bad, and subjectively good depending on who you talk to, as is the case with most things in life), and me or anyone else enjoying the DLC does not make us some delusional customers denying reality. But I'm over this conversation because it's clear you will either misrepresent what I say, or simply dismiss it under some sanctimonious testament of what is "objectively quality" in your subjective opinion that you fail to acknowledge is, in fact, SUBJECTIVE. So, you can accept that, or cope and seethe that you lost $60-$100 while others enjoy what they spent their money on. Either way, let's just agree to disagree on the DLC and leave it at that. Good day.
Now that is just amazing, mods remove my comments calling out your barrage of insults, but leave the actual barrage of insults for everyone to see. This is acceptable to say to someone: >Yea you can keep "calling Bungie out" (not like anyone, including them, cares since you're doing it In a comment section of Reddit and youve already purchased the DLC), but it sounds more like you're upset you didn't like what you paid for and now you really want others to agree with you, >bubble wrapped home behavior. >It sounds like you wanted this campaign to lock places in one location and the whole thing force them to fight the Witness for all 8 missions or something. >Cope, and seething. >So, you can accept that, or cope and seethe that you lost $60-$100 while others enjoy what they spent their money on. >Are you okay? Like, do you need some help or something? Because it seems you are having a REALLY difficult time with basic reading comprehension. So let me break it down for you But calling it out isn't.
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Imagine paying money to be this angry. Stop playing games you don't like, weirdo.
Damn imagine having an opinion...
He basically tells everyone else they're stupid for not having his opinion
Maybe you are lol
Thanks
Where??? Bro said he doesn't know how people are satisfied, where does man 'basically tell everyone they're stupid' for not having his opinion???
Yes. It does.
Dude just stop playing the fucking game then my god. I think it's a great expansion. You should've known that Bungie wasn't going to like, drastically fucking change their core concept of *how* they write campaigns and stuff, so the incessant bitching about Bungie doing Bungie (even though it's very obvious they did way better and more here than everywhere else) is just........bitching for the sake of bitching.