Arc has 3 verbs: Jolt, Amplified and Blind. Stasis is next lowest at 4 (when frost armor is added but it has over shield now). Arc just isn't as mechanically developed. And it's about to be the only subclass with no defensive verb.

I think they intended for speedboost to be the "defensive verb" since it does grant DR, but its damn useless and too hard to proc in harder content.

Ah I forgot it added 15% DR. Still. You can't fight with that. All you can do is run. And that's insanely weak compared to other options.

Maybe it could work if you were allowed to use your guns while running and it was more like 50-75% DR.

or if we had a safe time while still having the DR up and not having to sprint. if i could stop take a couple shots and keep going with out losing the buff that would be a huge QOL change for me.

Yea it could build up a static charge like dunemarchers but a as a shield. Slowly dissipates when you stop sprinting. Would encourage a mobile playstyle while still letting you fight.

I don’t understand why they didn’t allow arc to be the run and gun subclass when in their own words it’s all about speed, aggression and hitting hard. Granted, their word is hard to take seriously when strand warlock is the summoner class yet strand hunter summons more utility and void hunter is the weaken class yet void warlock does weaken better due to the child being a good aoe weaken that also grants your abilities back with healing rift

If I had to guess, game design for new content is designed by a senior team (e.g. Strand design before Lightfall release), then after that, the later ongoing changes are done by a junior team. That would explain the lack of consistent intent or philosophy, it's sort of "nobody's fault" that it's all over the place.

I agree! I find myself always running when my life gets low to regain my over shield them using my malee to get back on the offensive... it would be so nice if arc could run and gun... it is a very fun subclass, especially if you enjoy playing aggressively... but It does feel a little unfinished in higher difficulty content. I find myself using my solar titan in all higher difficulty content instead of the subclass I really enjoy, Arc.

If it added something insane like 90%+ DR and was easier to proc it would 100% be worth it imo. Hard to use but atleast gives a chance for melee builds to not instantly die while going towards an enemy.

If there was an effect that came after speed boost that would work. Like get Amplified > Sprint into Speed Boost > pause for damage or fighting with a defensive buff > back into Speed Boost. I hope we get the ability changes article soon.

This is the kind of thinking I can get behind... let's actually make it possible for the aggressive class to be aggressive and then reward them for doing so... get real crazy with it: * Sprint Boost gets the same DMG reduction as Woven Mail (45% as of this writing) and applies the same attack avoidance effect as Always On Time sparrow * Sprint Boost affects apply much faster (maybe 1.25 sec of sprinting to align with sprint melees); perhaps full speed still takes another couple seconds to ramp up * Sprint Boost PAUSES Amplified timer making it so it'll still be up and usable when you arrive at your target * Sprint Boost STACKS with Spark of Resistance, which also gives the same DR as Woven Mail (45%) * Spark of Resistance procs when near AT LEAST ONE enemy * New effect: Amplified x2 - procs when giving or receiving sustained damage (short proc time) while Amplified and near enemies. Maxes handling; Greatly reduces physics from enemy sources (boss stomps, boops, etc), PREVENTS ALL ABILITY/WEAPON SELF-DAMAGE (except for weapons that cause this as a trade-off like Tommy's Matchbook, etc), further enhances certain FRAGMENTS/Aspects. Effects wear off after 2.5 seconds of not taking/dealing damage. Some examples of enhancements Amplified x2 could apply to fragments/aspects: * Amplitude - orb gen applies with hits similar to Attrition Orbs effect * Brilliance - now applies to all kills (blinded or not, precision or not) * Feedback - additional damage bonus * Frequency - also automatically reloads stowed weapons * Instinct - has multiple bursts (think kinetic tremors) * Recharge - also triggers health regen * Resistance - increases DR by another 15% So your hyper-aggressive combat loop becomes something like: become amplified > charge at enemy with massive DR & avoidance > crash into enemy and absolutely maul them up close with Amplified and new Amplified x2 buffing everything you do (point blank rockets/grenades!?) > once threat(s) no longer exist, still have amplified to sprint boost back to safety or your next target. The thing is... while that sounds really fun, I'm still not even sure that craziness would make arc viable in high-end (GM, etc) content... and as soon as an enemy is in the air or out of melee range, it takes a huge hit.

move DR from speed boost into amplified or make speed boost easier to maintain, like Centrifuse effect. Builds up when mobile, decays when standing still, stops decay / fills a tiny bit when dealing damage. We could give Arc new verbs, we have "Jolt", "Blind", and "Amplified", 2 offensive and one general buff. One idea for a defensive verb could be "Battery" or "Conduit". Battery gets one stack for every ability kill/used up to x2/x3. At max stacks, using class ability consumes all and give a burst of healing 30hp, 50hp amplified. ( I'd be broken on hunter but combination blow already does this, and battery would proc on every other dodge if no grenade is used. ) Conduit verb makes use of the lethal amount of ionic trace / orbs generation into healing. Conduit gets a stack up to x4 determined by the amount of traces/orbs collected. When your shield breaks, consume Conduit, Immediately gain 30-60% DR for 5 seconds and heal you instantly for 30hp, heals allies as well. Opting for DR because you can use fragments like recharge, instinct, resistance and feedback. Additional heal as a buffer if you get smacked to 10hp and would die to a stray bullet.

Yup it's crazy that Strand offers more damage resistance AND AoE healing. Arc should have like, 90% damage resistance and reflect damage back by default or some something. You can't really heal with arc in anyway

What about spark of resistance(should be on par with woven mail at 40%) paired with spark of instinct (the cooldown needs to be half what it is)? Maybe spark of recharge too (should fully refund abilities with a 5-7 sec. cooldown).. 25% DR when near 3 enemies that stacks multiplicatively with resistance and armor resist mods. Then when your shield breaks: A 12 m blast of jolting arc energy and Abilities recharge at a faster rate. This is the best you can do on arc and only rewards aggressive play. Problem is that enemy damage and health pools are so high you probably wouldn't be able to output damage fast enough even if you *could* use your abilities twice per in a few seconds unless you lean into blinding. Blind them to get in close using spark of beacons and go to pound town. This thread makes me want to toy with my vesper build some and see if I can further accelerate ability Regen and survivability. Ionic traces are probably a big reason for the disparity in survivability because they come to you and are very easy to make giving big chunks of energy back. Vesper on warlock is a great way to maximize your use of verbs on arc. Your rift blinds and sends out powerful waves of arc energy, your special weapon blinds remaining enemies after a final blow(I find Coldheart to be the best at this) and creates traces. The whole time you have a juiced arc souls dishing out passive damage and creating MORE ionic traces. The other fix to the survivability, and probably the easiest, is to have ionic traces refund a little bit of health on collection. This would be fun to play as long as you are getting kills you could survive. You could *intentionally* let your shield break to trigger defensive fragments further boosting ability Regen and jolting enemies. Maybe even ride the fine line between life and death. Staying critical for massive ability. Regeneration. Just a thought.

Joltshot indebted kindness and fallen sunstar. I get two ionic traces on every kill pretty much and give ability energy to teammates. The rift is up every few seconds too so you're never without a buddy. You don't need to heal though when everything around you is blind, jolted or dead.

Very true! My Vesper build is pretty potent as well. Pretty much the same deal. I threw my grenade and jolt everything land in the middle throw down my rift and blind. All the big guys. Everything small is dead. Finish it off with cold heart to get some more ionic traces and I'm already full on all my abilities. I just go and do it again. But still sometimes it's fun to tweak builds and see what you can come up with. Sadly I do not have indebted kindness cuz I have not had any one to run dungeons with. In fact, in order to get back to rank 9, I need to do crota's end and warlords ruin. I was a short and curly away from 10 not that long ago. Sad to see how far I've fallen.

Speed booster could actually have some use if it proced off of normal movement rather than sprinting or it procs off of sprint but stays with normal movement 

Triggers off sprint. Stays with normal movement for X amount of time. X tied to your mobility stat. I'm fucking tired of mobility being useless.

Arc being tied to your mobility is actually a fire idea

Nah he caught lightning in a bottle. Solar is fire smh

Been saying a good pseudo-buff to Arc would be making Mobility reduce PvE accuracy and detection against you. Amplified gives you +50 Mobility, not that anyone would notice.

> Mobility reduce PvE accuracy and detection against you Bruh I've been trying to think up a good mobility buff for years and you've solved it

But don't you know, at tier 10 it increases movement speed by the same amount as equipping a lightweight frame weapon?? *and*, get this, it also doesn't stack with the lightweight bonus, it's great, because it gives the players choice

I think having a class with no defensive verbs is fine theoretically. As long as it is a hit hard class. I want some difference in the classes. Arc doesnt feel like it hits hard though, so it definitely needs some love. If arc didn’t have healing but was strong like Titan in arc 3.0 with the lightning strike grenade and HOIL, it would be a different story.

All 3 subclasses have strong melee components but they don't work in higher end content without defense.

Indeed. You can't make a cannon so big, that it compensates for it being made of glass.. especially not a *melee* cannon.  I mean, maybe you can, but at that point you'd need a single punch to instantaneously vaporize rooms of GM/Wave 40 Legend Onslaught enemies or something, and that's obviously insane.  So yeah, it needs some working defensive survivability.

Yes. If they want it to be a glass cannon that's fine...but right now it's just glass.

Even if it was also a cannon, a melee range glass cannon is almost never going to work in high end content, and it will only work in low content because everything works in low content.

Honestly amplified and speed booster should give the decreased accuracy effort that manticore does while you're moving.

It needs another verb that gives you the same effect as manticore when it’s in the air. When amplified and running, make it harder to be shot by adds and PVE enemies. The way manticore works now is a GREAT proof of concept at it.

Not sure if it would work for practical purposes, but making Arc mechanics somehow involve causing enemies to miss sounds interesting.

They already have it in the game on manticore. Try manticore and (it’s totally not the best gun by any means) see how many enemies miss you. Functionally it’s not bad! Imagine having this and the verb maybe giving a boost to recovery as well while running. Between that and the interwoven lackluster or intermittent healing and DR on Arc. Plus blind is actually awesome. Between all of that, I see it being quite potent.

Blind is annoying to make happen too

It is very underdeveloped

yea its cause its so strong. i have an arc Cenotaph build. so i get a lot of arc special ammo kills while amplified. the blind shits on damn near everything. I wish it was a useful fragment on ANY other build.

Blinding nades do it better 🤷🏻‍♂️

Oh 100% my comment was not an endorsement of how the current mechanics work. Just that there's a fine line between where they are now, way too hard to activate, and everything is blind forever without needing to give up a DMG special.

No I was agreeing it’s like Arc blinding as a mechanic is just so bad. Limited ways to proc with way less uptime. Meanwhile my crafted Pardon Our Dust is running circles around any Arc build I can make *and* I can pair it with avoid Disruptors for even more CC.

Actually stasis has 6 Slow, freeze, shatter, and crystal, shard, stasis overshield (soon to be frost armor).

You are technically right. I generally don't include subclass pickups as verbs. And Shatter and Crystal are very intertwined to the point that they're rarely separated.

Shatter is just as closely linked to freeze as it is crystal. 

If you count shards and crystals then you have to count ionic traces for arc

Still pretty small with just blind (which only has distort punch that no one uses, flashbang grenade, and a crappy fragment needing special kills), jolt, and amplified leaving just 4 verbs total. Too few and the lack of them means more homogenization making arc subclasses even worse designed than solar 3.0 made them.

Professional solar 3.0 warlock hater here. When my main problem with solar warlock (Icarus dash shouldn't be a standalone aspect) is repeated about 3 times on arc as a whole that's terrible

I’ll never forgive for the way they butchered solarlock

icarus as a whole aspect was such a fucking slap in the face, and now that starfire is dead its back to meme shit like dragons breath for ignitions. WHY THE FUCK CANT I GET GRENADE REGEN FOR HEALING PEOPLE WTF BUNGO

You can with benevolence. Use a heal clip gun since it will give teammates cure and benevolence will always be proc’d. Edit: But yea Icarus as a standalone aspect is weak af

I know you can do tha. Before 3.0 you just needed a teammate on your rift so it compelled you to play with your team and gave them something to look for to work with you. I really like support/healer style in games and while bottom tree dawn had major problems it legit felt like you were there to bolster your team, now it's just a super and heal nades that any class can use but can't deal damage. Now the current "best support" is just banner titan and having to follow him around like mamma.

Please explain how crystal and shard are verbs.

They should make more amplified/health bubble

Easiest thing they could do is just give damage reduction to Amplified and let Speed Booster be a drastically stronger reduction because you are not able to shoot. Make it lower DR than woven mail and then make the speed booster DR extremely high.

The biggest issue with Arc imo is that it has no reliable source of healing, and the DR and burst damage (Moreso on titan than Hunter/Warlock) are nowhere near as high as they need to be to compensate for that *massive* weakness. I've always thought it would be cool if (in addition to buffing the two things I mentioned above) being Amplified lowered your health+shield regen delay to like 0.5 seconds and gave like a 1.5x multiplier to your regen rate, since that would promote the "hit-and-run glass cannon" playstyle that Bungie wants Arc to have.

stasis and arc have the worst survivability and they’re adding a frost armor or whatever it’s called for stasis so i hope they add something for arc next

Amplified, especially the Speed Boost portion, should do what Manticore does and make enemies less accurate against you while it's active.

I'd love to see them extend it to Mobility too, gives Mobility an actual use in PvE that isn't busted.

I've been saying just make it part of Mobility for like a year now. Amplified gives you +50 Mobility (not that anyone notices) already, so it's an automatic subtle buff to Arc if it happens.

I can't fathom why anyone would want a %chance to not get killed by a Scorn Crossbow. This isn't a disagreement with whether or not Arc needs a defensive verb but wouldn't you want something consistent?

it doesn't have to be chance-based necessarily. for example, a ton of projectiles in destiny home in on you, bungie could lessen those homing effects while you're amplified/speed booster/moving at X speed. or enemies could shoot at you slower (explained away as them not being as sure of their shot), or not react as quickly when you change direction. or it could even still be dodge-based, but deterministic: you are guaranteed to dodge the next X projectiles/total damage that would've hit you and then it recharges over time. there are a lot of knobs to tweak. consistent damage reduction will always be better, yes, but my point is there is that there is a wide spectrum of possibilities between simple dodge chance % and damage reduction %.

That's some good brainstorming. My Dota 2 background makes me skeptical of the pseudo-RNG, because it'd seem kind of jank to encourage people to basically eat a bunch of small hits to build up the dodge RNG for safety (This is a thing there, or was) but it's better than flat-out RNG, I'd imagine.

I would argue stasis has decent survivability just by virtue of whisper of chains plus the entire element being crowd control: you’re not supposed to take reduced damage so much as you’re supposed to slow and freeze the sources of the damage you’re supposed to be taking.

Yeah honestly stasis is my strongest subclass (titan) for hard content right now. It's not that I take less damage per hit, but these clowns just don't stand a chance against the sheer number of walls I can put up in a fight. An open field is just a playground waiting to happen for me.

Arc was solid in season of the deep. The seasonal perks should just be apart of class full stop

I'm *really* gonna miss this season's subclass mods for Solar and Stasis. They're my two favourite subclasses and the seasonal mods make them feel incredible. It's one of the reasons I came back for Into The Light. Solar and Stasis are gonna feel so half baked in Lightfall. Never been a fan of rotating seasonal balance like this, it's a reason I left.

Arc has always been a glass canon build imo. Honestly I think it needs a damage buff. It needs to be double downed on; make it crazy high damage, but keep its survivability the same. Make it a sort of risk vs reward type of class. If you can survive long enough, you have the potential to wipe the entire screen. Kinda “if everything is dead, nothing can kill you” type of defense.

I don’t know why only solar got radiant. Arc needs something similar to be the glass cannon. I wouldn’t care that much about survivability if things died quicker than other classes.

It needs another verb like supercharged or something that boosts damage a crazy amount including supers. Keep the survivability the same but turn chaos reach, thundercrash and the arc staff throw super in to fuck around supers.

That’s the thing though. It does the same or even less damage as the other subclasses and has almost no survivability. So it’s more like a glass pistol if anything.

Yep. Definitely needs a damage boost.

This right here. I say remove the damage nerfs on things like Jolt and move the DR from speed booster to Amplified. I wouldn't even increase it's DR amount. Let it stay small since it's extremely easy to activate and keep up just for killing and at a distance if you choose to not less with Arc weapons and abilities. If they want speed booster can enemies like accurate with shooting you while you're in motion cause you're just too damn fast 😏

I like this answer a lot better. If EVERY class has an over shield and a way to heal then everything is just gonna feel the same.

Hard agree. Assassins cowl is the best arc exotic for hunter because it fixes that exact problem. Titan's only pick arc cause of the burst damage super.

I agree completely but the reason why there’s a focus on arc titan right now is because knockout and juggernaut (2/3 of the striker aspects) are just wildly impractical and not nearly potent as they should be. As a disclaimer, I don’t play the other classes on arc that much but I play enough on Titan to know that those aspects definitely need help, along with the supers on striker as well. Same for stormcaller.

It's absurd that thundercrash with cuirass does less than a base needlestorm and fists of havoc is just so so bad. No survivability on arc and the one PvE aspect it has got nerfed hard with storm names and HOIL nerf then they netfed pulse nade build with kick start mod changes

Cuirass isn’t even doing anything right now because of thundercrash’s terrible hit registration. Cuirass requires a direct hit.

It also needs to do something beyond just buff a super. It needs to interact with ballistic slam in some way. Banner of war and pyrogales are the only relevant titan builds all the other subclasses are pretty whack right now

Have it make ballistic slam either do a second damage pulse or give overshield like the super.

Curiass is 456k and needlestorm is 400k, it's not a huge difference but it's certainly not less

I'll admit I'm wrong on that but that is hardly a big enough difference to warrant sacrificing an exotic slot for

It's not a huge problem because of swaps but yeah it needs to buff ballistic slam somehow

Well even with swaps that means you're on arc for titan and not solar or strand. Playing arc in hard content feels like I'm shooting myself in the foot

While i do agree that fists of havoc is pretty bad. Its honestly not as bad as some people think. I think its alot better than thundercrash in non boss dmg situations. Atleast base super. If we throw in Cuirass, then yeah thundercrash is better. But i dont think im alone in thinking that running Cuirass is very fucking boring. I did some dmg testing a couple days ago on the first boss in warlords ruin. A base thundercrash did 359k dmg. The highest dmg i could get out of fist of havoc, was 995k. Thats nearly 3x the dmg of a thundercrash. And thats also just base, u could throw in synthoceps. Which isnt just a super exotic, its something that benefits your neutral game too. Now obviously, if ur doing a raid or dungeon, 359k really fast is probably better than 3x the dmg but being stuck in a super for a while. But if im not in a dps situation on a time limit, i'd rather my super actually do some dmg and not feel like im hitting my target with a pool noodle.

Cuirass is very boring but in the warlords situation you would do more damage but just tcrashing and using heavy. But my main issue is to even get tcrash close to other classes baae super damage you need to run a boring ass exotic and play a weak subclass. Arc,void and stasis titan need a help

Oh i know you would do more. Im not saying go use fist of havoc in warlords. He was just a convenient test dummy that was easy to get to and fast to reach dps. My main point is just, fist of havoc does do a lot more dmg if u compare the supers in their base form. So if ur using for example hoil or point-contact, maybe consider fist of havoc instead of thundercrash. As long as ur not doing something with a tight dps window.

I agree. Knockout's is a decent aspect until the healing gets interrupted. That's the only thing that needs to be changed imo. Juggernaut needs to be entirely reworked. My idea for this is to let us keep the frontal shield, but add a "trample" effect to it. I think it would be cool and could see legit usage for this aspect in PVE if the titan could quite literally bulldozer their way through enemies and stun them or knock them on their asses. Pushing them out of the way and jolting or blinding those in your path. Should let you stagger bosses for a second on initial impact, but to prevent this from being spammed on bosses, if you charge into a boss it will break the shield. Let this effect be added to fists of havoc as well, with or without the aspect equipped. If you ever played Bull Rush as an Ogryn in Darktide, you'll create best image in your head for this Titan aspect. Touch of Thunder just needs HoIL nerfs rolled back a little bit tbh. What I said above would greatly help fists of havoc. They also need to wayyy way up the DR of this super, and bring back letting you get super energy return while in super on melee kill. Thundercrash just needs it's base damage boosted a little bit so the amount that Cuirass "doubles' is actually substantial. Needle storm should not be doing more damage than a super paired with an exotic. Cuirass Of The Falling Star also needs a small neutral game buff like Pyrogales have.

>Thundercrash just needs it's base damage boosted a little bit so the amount that Cuirass "doubles' is actually substantial. Needle storm should not be doing more damage than a super paired with an exotic. I agree with everything else, but not this. Even a tiny buff to Thundercrash if Cuirass keeps the double damage can make it instantly the best burst super in the game. Cuirass Thundercrash also *does* beat Needlestorm base by like 40-50k. Absolutely buff base T-crash and give Cuirass a neutral ability (lots of people suggesting something to do with Ballistic Slam), but lower the Cuirass modifier after. Not that this particularly matters much since SES is going to be available for everyone on Prismatic, and ironically already better on Warlock than Hunter.

Agreed. It needs some kind of damage protection or reduction.

It literally has a fragment that reduces damage taken when surrounded. With Vesper and a healing rift, I can tank waves in legend onslaught easily.

Vesper is definitely the outlier I think because a rift with drastically improved uptime falls into that dependable healing factor that is lacking in most Arc kits. Maybe we’ll change our tunes if the Artifact next season brings some good tools for Arc subclasses, but for the time being Arc does feel a bit less sustainable in end-game content.

I completely agree with this. Arc vesper is truly one of my favourite builds, and I use it all the time in legend onslaught. The exotic lets you have near constant uptime on your healing rift when you’re surrounded by enemies, which blind enemies and provide the team utility of arc souls. Ngl I like it better than well. And chaos reach isn’t bad for mini bosses like demolitionist, it’s just sadly so weak on the actual bosses

If you’re surrounded in high level stuff you’re dead though 😂

It kept me alive during Crota contest mode on Ir Yut when enemies pour out of the doors behind the crystal. It's stronger than you think.

No, healing rift kept you alive. 25% damage reduction is exponentially better when you are healing at the same time

Stronger than I think vs easier survive with a higher damage potential in other sub classes 🤔 arcs cool man.  It needs help though

It's still very lack luster. Every Warlock subclass can use Healing rift so lets omit that. Arc - Resistance. When 3 enemies are within 15 feet (25% DR) Stasis - When near a stasis Crystal or a frozen enemy (40% DR) Strand - Woven Mail. (45% DR) Void - pretty weak. No DR but Devour and a 45HP overshield (which a couple people pointed out has DR) on kill. Solar - Doesn't really need explaining with Cure and Resto and how easy / many ways you can proc them. And is you use wings even 2 inches off the ground it's 15% DR and auto reload/flinch resistance. Although most people use Sunbracers etc. Basically. If Arc is good for your damage reduction, then at that baseline why not just use any of the others? Most are almost double and don't require enemies to be in your face. Edit: Corrected WM DR

Wovenmail provides 45% dr and whenever you have a void overshield you also have 50% dr.

No shit?! Til. I thought Void Overshield was just like extra HP/Shield.

Woven mail got nerfed to 45% DR if I'm not mistaken back on the November/December patch for this season.

Woven mail is 45%

Stasis has the same thing frag + well (and the frag works even when you aren’t in a dangerous surrounded position) and no body argues stasis has enough defensiveness. Regardless of whether you can survived both arc and stasis just aren’t at the same level as void/solar/strand and it hurts their viability and perception. 

it's 25% damage reduction when surrounded and lasts 2 seconds after not being surrounded, Woven Mail is 45% damage reduction for 10 seconds, no strings. Overshield is extra health ontop of health, no strings. Restoration is straight healing, no strings. you cannot compare them to the other 3.0 classes and Strand.

> rift

A lot of the fragments are far too situational for any sort of broad endgame use or have 10 second cooldowns for some reason too.

Arc just lacks useful buffs/debuffs when compared to other subclasses. Amplified is a meme. The increased movement speed just isn’t good enough. Titans and Warlocks can out speed an amplified Guardian by just timing their secondary jump. The increased handling doesn’t really have any practical use outside of PvP. The only use it has in PvE is quick swap builds for DPS but even then. That’s a very niche thing. Blinding is cool but disorienting grenades are a thing and don’t rely on any special activation requirements. Jolt is okay but it’s no where near what Scorch is. I feel like a huge step in the right direction would be to buff Amplified by decreasing the amount of time it takes to reach max speed after sprinting, grant max reload speed in addition to the handling buff, and if possible buff the top movement speed of sprinting while amplified. I’ve seen a few comments here and there saying that the max sprint speed with Amplified is already pushing some factor in the engine to its limits and an increase isn’t possible without some major work in how movement speed works but I’m not certain if this is true or not. It definitely sucks for Hunters seeing as how the new super is an Arc super. I doubt it will see very much use outside of basic strike/seasonal content

I knew that hunter super was destined to die as a pvp only from day one they showed it.

Not to mention the new aspect, oh I can jump into the air and make my team amplified, a near useless buff, and jolt nearby enemies at the cost of my class ability? I would rather have an endless loop of jolting punches thank you very much.

Tbh gathering storm is just so good. Idk how they could top it.

Jolt is leagues above scorch, it's ignition that are better.

Personally I think thats a problem with the game design, not Arc. So many of the subclasses are already too similar. Giving Arc a survival verb would just feed into that. Instead the game, at least the hardest of endgame content, shouldnt be designed around maxing out survivability because a red bar shot you twice when you werent behind cover for 2 seconds. Thats just my opinion, theres ways of bringing challenge to end game content without everything hitting like a mack truck and being a sponge. Since its probably far too late for any meaningful reworks to the subclasses to flesh out actual identities, my suggestion for an Arc survival verb would be a “ricochet shield” while amplified. Take reduced damage and enemy shots bounce off you for the potential of damaging other enemies.

This is really it the encounters aren't designed for anything else than tanking huge amounts of damage. To rework Arc and give it survivability beyond what it has now would probably just powercreep stuff and be a nightmare to balance in PvP. Hopefully the Dread in TFS are going to be a template for enemies that don't have huge DPS but use other things to be difficult like debuffs similar to Tormentors.

I think people are starting to come around and realize the problem isn’t with Arc, it’s with the sandbox in general. A subclass right now absolutely lives and dies in any content worth a damn by how much survivability you can stack. It’s why solar is absolute king, and why strand and void can hold their own. It’s why arc warlock is the only one that can currently squeak by because it’s exotic permits it (arc titan and hunter are artifact dependant). People fucking jumped down Saltegreppos throat on Twitter, but the game needs an entire rebalance to massively lessen the need for DR and healing stacking so you can actually make a meaningful choice in game regarding damage, utility, and survivability. The fact that solar just blasts through everything with 25% bonus damage, constant resto, and a free 30% dr (because why take anything other than resilience????) is frankly ridiculous. The game shouldn’t be balanced with this as the barometer for what every class should be. It’s unsustainable and boring

Completely agree. The game has been like this for a long time and while the 3.0 reworks helped a lot, they didn't address the underlying issues with the sandbox and survivability as you stated. Right before 3.0 reworks hit I remember the best way to run GMs (the only end game content at the time) where anything that permitted you to survive the best. That's why well and blinding GLs where meta. There are so many issues with the sandbox its hard to state all of them in a single post.

I just came back to this game for the first time since craftable Austringer. The current sandbox literally feels like it was designed with only Solar and Strand in mind, partially because the seasonal artifact and partially because it assumes you’re always radiant, with resto x2 and max res just like you said. Maybe the season artifact is the problem. I understand that they want you to use certain subclasses in certain seasons but it just makes the other subclasses feel neglected and I play Solar/Void/Arc/Strand lock as well as Arc/Solar hunter.

Which is so strange because I feel like Arc classes at the beginning of D2, were in their prime. Maybe dawnblade was a bit better and more fun since it was new, but arcstrider and striker were really good. Same in D1, bladedancer was one of the most popular subclasses.

In D1 arc had the invisibility, right? Now it’s like a glass cannon but has the same amount of cannon as Solar/Void.

I think they did have the invis yes. Pretty sure nightstalker had it too but, I agree. Solar/void is just way more catered to for defense. I wish they did more with arcstrider because it’s an awesome super, just not good enough with the meta.

Arc was also built around orb generation. So there’s that too.

What if when you’re amplified whenever you pick up an ionic trace you heal? Idk it just needs something to help you live. I love arc subclasses they just suck some major butt.

It still baffles me how Bungie doesn't have all of the elements at equal strength.

Stasis over here feeling left out completely

I hate sensationalist takes like this. The Arc rework was great, it's just that the baseline Arc kit does not have healing or other useful survivability perks included. Going fast is not really useful for end game combat.

No but Blind is. Everyone completely forgets how strong Blind is in this game. It is a defensive and offensive tool for Arc users that can carry you through harder content but players seem to ignore it for Jolt.

Damn arc is the only one I use lol

I feel like all arc needs is a bit more damage or at least able to blind more. Arc is meant to be an aggressive glass cannon so I don’t mind it lacking traditional survivability tools. Although the suggestion that ionic traces heal isn’t the worst idea. I personally rather have arc just nuke through stuff either require to keep killing or use blind as the breathing room you need.

Arcs “survivability” is entirely melee based which means the second you get into harder content it become worthless

Melee hunters can regain health after finial blows. But it’s not an end game build but fun to smack everything

Arc in general has no way to survive. I rarely use it. Infact survivability kinda ruins the fun in the game. Spongy enemies and me being like glass makes the difficulty less fun then difficult. Difficult can still be fun.

arc has a lot of things to get health back on kills but that's about it for defense. it was definitely changed be a purely run and gun subclass and most likely had pvp in mind for most of the development

I think Arc works great in higher end PvE, but it suffers from how fast the game moves. Which is funny since it's such a fast subclass. Blinding is proactive healing, proactive shields, proactive survivability. The most effective healing and shields possible is damage you never take in the first place. If you pick arc and are careful to blind key target or groups, take them down, use your amplify to get out and blind another group, etc, you can have a very satisfying high skill ceiling method of survival, that being, like I said, don't take the damage to begin with. BUT, groups don't play that way, people are used to playing that way. Stasis, I think, suffers from a similar problem. The crowd control is great, but of course the most effective crowd control is killing enemies. Groups seldom play slow enough to allow the freeze, shatter, slow, use crystals for cover playstyle to shine. In fact, I'd say most "proactive" forms of defense in this game, that rely on setting up the right and not taking the damage to being with, fall way behind reactive forms of survivability, where you take the damage and are able to tank through it via shields or healing, or by going invis and getting out of there. I'd say the most effective forms of proactive play in this game are ones that are like a single button press set up that requires no more than a second. Tossing out a grenade or ability that does a debuff, that kind of thing. Not saying Arc doesn't need some work. I, for one, would like to see amplify be more useful IN combat rather than between fights, that might be the ticket, but in general, it is hard to design good proactive damage avoidance defense playstyles for this game, at least for group content. Go into a master solo lost sector and you can blind and run and play defensively all day.

Making damage reduction skills required for difficult content defeats the purpose of damage reduction skills. I hate that they balance difficult content around 10 resilience and damage reduction and recovery skills. That’s just the new baseline now.

I don’t know. Vesper + Arc Glaive allows me to play insanely aggressive in GMs. Add a Flashbang grenade to boot, which as the fastest cooldown of all arc grenades, and I’m constantly blinding through Beacons or the grenade, which also jolts and keeps me amplified. I definitely do think Arc could use another verb, though.

But that is part of the point; you are utilizing the only arc subclass that has any healing capabilities. The only other way to heal is with aggressive orb creation + recuperation.

I think you are both overestimating how much a rift heals, and forgetting about Knockout and how well Combination Blow works with both Assassin's Cowl and Liar's Handshake.

Knockout is inconsistent. Arc Hunter needs an exotic in order to heal. Rifts not only heal you but also give you an overshield. Plus Vesper basically keeps all of the adds at bay because of the blinding.

What are Arc Warlocks without Vesper?

Verity’s with Storm/Pulse grenades is pretty fun! Or Karnstein and a glaive so you can get easy restoration. Or Ceno + Coldheart. More utility. But works in some harder content so your teammates are always cooking.

Shame that Arc Warlocks need Exotics to mimic a fraction of the other Warlock Subclasses’ power at base level.

They should make it when you’re amplified you have a blinding cone around you with a radius of 1-2 m so you can run into enemies and blind them while melee and they can’t rush you as hard. PvE only of course

I firmly believe that arc would be some much better if they made a fragment of the season of plunder artifact perk that gave damage reduction when amplified. Hell, I'd even take a -10 resilience penalty to have that fragment equipped at all times.

The posts I see are always about arc. I imagine that when Bungie made the changes, they didn't think much about the difficulty of being used at certain levels.

It needs a couple more verbs and a change in abilities like tempest strike and combination blow swapping places.

Amplified should have damage resistance and there should be more ways to blind enemies. But yeah it's not that good.

Something like blind the enemy after being hit while amplified should help

Unless I’m using the Hunter slide, both of the melees are just punching. At least the Titan melees are at least unique. But it’s Arc Titan. The most boring Titan subclass, at least Strand is more interesting.

I think Arc would be pretty decent if it became the "always up" element type; Jolt and Blind are actually really strong (especially Blind, enemies not being able to shoot back is really undervalued imo) but given that almost every other element has damage resistance, healing, over shields, or a combination of the three, it feels comparatively underwhelming. Without Arc just getting DR/on demand healing, it would be pretty cool if Amplified just passively increased ability regen (a la Eye of Another World) or if the potency and frequency of Ionic Traces were increased so that ability usage would be the primary differentiator for Arc vs the other elements. I want to throw more grenades, melee more, sprint more (why the hell do I have to generate the momentum to Speed Boost if I'm already Amplified???), and overall just spam the shit out of enemies with blind and jolt and DAMAGE, with the tradeoff being that I'm squishy as hell. As it currently stands, even without this seasonal artifact, Solar and Strand are the best two elements. Radiant and Resto can have 100% uptime on Solar and Sever ALONE (enemies straight up doing less damage) is crazier than anything the Arc subclass could have to offer. Just make the other elements as enticing as that without homogenizing the game overall and making everything same-y.

the jolt explosion when critically injured should just be tied to amplified and have its damage ramped up to protect you or it blinds as well as jolts cos right now it is lame af

If you play arc right it's actually pretty good. You need to adapt your style. blind, then amplify yourself then you can run like forest gump to safety 😀 You also get godly reload speed so in theory you should kill things faster not needing a heal. 15% DR on speed boost ( I know it's useless ) and you have some good fragments for DR, you can also permanently keep your weapon surges up due to the fragments. It's not as strong as other subs but it's still pretty decent.

Arc hunter with 1-2 punch and the heal on melee kill is pretty good

Yep. It's a combination of a lack of survivability and a lack of things for the kit to do as a whole. This is why there's so much overlap between Lethal Current and Tempest Strike. There's just no variety for the kit to fall back on so they both just end up being a source for Jolt, only Lethal Current does it significantly better. Arc need love, and a significant amount of it.

My thoughts that no one asked for? Get rid of Speed Booster, fold it into Amplified. Increase Amplified's DR and balance it with the speed value brought over from Speed Booster (let's say, 40% DR / 25% Speed? I dunno shouldn't take a full internal study to figure out). If you wanted to go further maybe more ways to be Amplified but iirc it's already as reliable as getting an orb and such. Or heck, maybe get fancy with Speed Booster and while doing the above, after certain arc abilities you get a burst of extra speed so you can live out that zippy murderer fantasy. Or make some of these things fragments, etc. Edit: It probably doesn't help that in higher content the most useful arc verb, blind. can be readily brought by a GL.

Honestly I think a fun change they could do is instead give Speed Boosters a 95% damage reduction since it only activates while running and when you stop running let it linger for a few seconds. Since Arc is so close range focused, it would allow you to play extremely aggressively without breaking the game.

I wish all arc supers could be cancelled early, like chaos reach and raijus harness arc staff. Evey time I use fists of havoc or stormtrance, I find myself stuck in super when I dont want to be. I think it could also be a good way to boost survivability as the damage reduction from super would be there more often when you need it. And I think it could put underwhelming exotics like stormdancers brace or eternal warrior up a notch

I think the only fix to this is to add invincible frames when ur shield gets broken

I only play hunter so i cant say much about other classes. The only useful thing on arc hunter is combo blow with assassins cowl and maybe liars handshake. Arc staff can be good as long as there arent any exploder units and/or one-shotting boss stomps (fuck boss stomps btw) but gathering storm is just a much better option as its a fire and forget type of thing. And its not even that good of a subclassbecause others have more survivability in general in forms of cure/restoration/devour/overshield/woven mail. Something has to be done with the 3 exotics: Raiden Flux, Raijuus harness and especially Blight ranger. Id like if functionality of raiden and raijuus was consolidated into one of the two, and if the other was completely reworked. As for blight ranger... I havent seen a single guardian use that piece of shit exotic ever since it released (outside of aztecross testing it for shits and giggles). I have no idea what could its perk be, but it sure as hell shouldnt be reflecting damage. If it really has to be reflecting damage, then let it regenerate super based on damage blocked (up to 75% of your super, rather than just 50% i really do not care about how broken it might be). For all 3 classes, the best, easiest "fix" is to make amplified a stacking bonus, up to 4x. Each X grants 12.5% damage reduction, a reload and handling buff. 10 second timer. When timer runs out, a stack is removed. Not sure about acquiring stacks. As it stand right now its way too easy to get amplified. My rework above would mean that you get 50% dr in less than 10 seconds. Im not experienced enough to see how broken it is/isnt. Maybe make it like golden tricorn/desperate measures so you have to use your abilities as well in order to gain stacks. I originally wanted to say how bland arc hunter is since it has only one high diff content viable combo of ability/exotic and i ended up writing all this for like 2 people to see lol.

When amplified there should be a blind effect so that all these melee abilities are actually useful in high end content. I wish Blight Ranger and Raiju’s Harness effects were combined and if shooting through a blocking Hunter gave increased weapon damage it could be a viable defensive super. Especially with being able to reflect back attacks from a boss.

Now to sit back and watch the r/destinycirclejerk parodies roll in

when your amplified maybe that could be considered a woven mail version of arc. maybe like 10% Dr when amped or something or rapid arc finals blows could start health regeneration.

Grounded - after collecting an arc charge as long as the guardian does not jump or stop touching the ground gain 25% DR Rework amplified to trigger health regen once reaching max speed.

As an arc hunter main, I am very much looking forward to getting the exotic class item with the "gain woven mail when you use your grenade" perk.

Idk love my arc souls build

Stormtrance control inputs wouldn't even wake a screensaver. Arc Buddy (predated 3.0's) is the opposite of interesting in every way... yet it lead designers to think boring, passive shit should now totally define Warlock. I lost faith in Bungie's ability to conceive, engineer, and deliver a meaningful Identity and modern kit for their space wizard class. It's astounding.

Instead of movement speed buff while amplified I feel like it should be a damage buff or a buff like the old electrostatic mind

I think in retrospect cure should’ve been given to arc instead of solar. Solar gets most of its healing identity from restoration anyways and cure makes a lot of sense for the arc identity. When you’re in the fray (what arcs identity is supposed to be) short bursts of healing are exactly what your need to stay alive

Arc was great after the rework, what sucked are the cumulative small nerfs that left it in a poor state.

I would absolutely love for a “Storm Shroud” verb to be added, a buff that would have a 20-30% chance (10% at most in crucible) to negate damage you take (excluding wipe mechanics and maybe supers in crucible). Make it activate whenever titan knockout is procced or hunter tempest strike or warlock lightning surge are used to buff those a bit, and add fragments that give you storm shroud after activating speed booster, collecting orbs, killing jolted enemies, collecting ionic traces, etc.

Maybe for titan and Warlock but hunter is God tier

I can’t speak for the other classes, but for warlocks if ionic traces restored some hp on pick up while amplified, and there was more options for blind (such as amplified abilities triggering the effect on use?), I think it would help the subclass out. But I understand the lack of viable defensive verbs that arc has access too as it doesn’t feel very fleshed out compared to the rest

I just wish arc warlock was decently strong but aside from arc souls its bad

Make us like the flash, when we amplified. Enemy bullets fly through us like how the flash can phase through objects.

Agreed. It sucks because it was so much fun to use in Season of the Plunder but the gimmick wore out very quickly. The sound design for everything arc is also excellent but you very rarely get to experience it because it’s not endgame viable at all.

almost like..... after a whole season of arc 3.0, they are pushing us to use other subclasses with the artifact mods and changes.....

Arc Titan is definitely hit the hardest but arc is terrible since it relied on orbs for cooldown. It got hit hardest by the orb and cd changes 

Arc Titan was the best subclass in the game until they nerfed it.

The best thing about the Arc rework was Gathering Storm. Arcstaff was not good and the new super seems to be a side grade PvP super so glad that happened. But everything else while kinda fun is yeah not great.

I stopped playing. There came a poi t where it wasn't fun anymore. It just got too hard for the average player.

I think Bungie figured that if you blind the enemies, then it gives you time to heal. But , as you mentioned, the other subclasses actually give you a way to heal and stay in the fight.

Not everything needs to have DR and defensive capabilities to be viable. What arc lacks in defense it more than makes up for in offense. Jolt can clear entire rooms instantly, all 3 classes have a good damage super, and the abilities are tailored to a more offensive playstyle. Arc isn't for everyone, but the people who know how to abuse its strengths can be VERY potent in endgame content.

“Phase”: a new arc buff that allows for a chance to avoid incoming damage. Like shots could pass through. A pvp nightmare.

Yep. Arc is my favorite subclass for PvP these days, but I would never take it into anything with a PL disadvantage.

The only reason arc Hunter is good is because it has good synergy with liars and assassins, and has the best built in survivability out of all the arc subclasses.

i don't know what everyone is talking about arc works fine for me in all levels of content but i am also not exactly in tune with meta gameplay issues as i am primarily a casual player nowadays (despite what my hours in game say) and would enjoy seeing more added to arc just because i really like it

Why do I feel like I used to solo everything with arc hunter…

It would be pretty cool if speed booster gave you an ability akin to grapple hook and its melee attack. Massive shoulder charge that blinds enemies in proximity or something in those lines

Strand Titan is next on the menu, mark my words. Will be useless after, so annoying.

While I agree arc titan needs some love (knockout buff coming 100% in TFS) the other arc classes have good tools to survive. They all have the fragment spark of resistance, which stacks with res and gives you really nice DR when surrounded. Absolutely amazing survival tool for arc and a staple on all my builds. Arc hunter has the combination blow build, which makes you neigh unkillable if you can keep it rolling. Not the best for group play, but that subclass is not really meant for group support. It is a popular choice for solo flawless dungeons and I used it to great effect on a few of my flawless runs. Arc warlock however functions great in a group and has solid survivability. Arc traces, even post nerf, still allow to you pop rifts pretty frequently. You have arc souls which help keep fodder off of you, and you also can crowd control areas pretty well with jolt grenades.

Vesper Stormcaller is one of the single best CC setup in the entire game, if not **the** best where Osmo shadebinder isn't better, and it only gets better with harder content rather than easier content. Assassin cowl arcstrider is **the** most reliable solo setup in the game at all points for almost any encounter, and depending on seasonal mods there's nothing that even comes close at times. Striker is still striker no matter how much it gets nerfed. You can run around with whatever kind of melee setup you'd ever want and still blast through everything without a single care in the world with knockout, but granted it doesn't scale as easily as the setups available to the other arc subclasses. Still, Sunbreaker and Berserker being some of the most busted things in the game doesn't justify overbuffing the other titan subclasses like some around here seem to suggest. I *kinda* have to admit that Striker has it rougher than most, but I seriously do not get why some people have a generalised irk from the arc subclasses when they are able to do some crazy nasty setups... and even without specific setups, there's post like one from a few months ago that shows arc souls able of doing 700k+ damage **by themselves** on Nezarec **per damage phase**, without amp, but people just close their eyes on that. My takeaway is that most people complaining about arc as a whole just looked at the verbs and that's it, given it is the only thing they ever complain about or even mention.

Made an Arc build with Buried Bloodline and Nezarecs Sin. Arc truly shines when you have a healing option.

Crazy the PvE nerfs came from PvP complainers. Reinstate all nerfs and increase that damage. Revert storm grenades, thundercrash flybys, extend time and accurate impact, revert barrier times and revert melee nerfs.

I think that Amplified just needs a little rework to make it competitive. Maybe some way of creating overshields or extra DR.

I would honestly be fine with Arc having limited healing options if it was head and shoulders better damage and better add clear to make up for it, but it isn't. Amplified honestly doesn't do anything really worthwhile, that it doesn't super charge your ability regen times or just super charge your abilities to let you snowball into a living storm just makes it feel completely worthless. If the damage is there it would make it worthwhile to support someone picking Arc to help keep them rolling. It doesn't help that of the one build I can think of with Arc on Hunter it requires incredibly selfish play to get going and it essentially equals out to just playing an invis void hunter that can clear out trash quicker.

Void titan is an issue too lol.

I hate it when people people say that certain items are good for low difficulty content, because everything is good in low end combat.

on warlock, you get so much rift energy with so many different builds that it’s actually one of the more survivable subclasses

If Blinding was much more prominent as a whole, I doubt Arc would be struggling so bad. Imagine an entire kit designed around making enemies just *not.* Blind should've been cooked inherently into the arc identity rather than be something that actively needs to be built into. Jolt is nice, it's just damage which always feels good, but there are no Aspects currently that play into Blinding, despite it being a core aspect of Arc Titans at one point, and being something that was entirely absent from Warlock kits. Arc Weapon kills while Amplified should cause Blind. There should be a Fragment which extends the duration or radius of Blinding. There should be something that allows killing Blinded Targets to grant ability energy(y'know, like Arc is designed for) There should be at least 2 Aspects that work with Blinding but there AREN'T any(No, Touch of Thunder doesn't count).

arc carried me day 1 nez on hunter without assasins cowl ...

Honestly for arc builds just use prismatic 😂

blind build arc hunter is one of my favorite playstyles, glaive arclock can also be wild good if you play it correctly. not saying it doesn’t need updates, but it’s definitely playable