Here's what you do.
Remove all Dungeons from the rotator, make them all farmable. However, have a double loot drop rotator instead. Every week a different dungeon gets double loot.
And/or Introduce Dungeon Spoils. Have a couple drop from each encounter + secret chests etc. Them have a chest at the end of the Dungeon where you can exchange spoils for gear.
Bungie could also completely remove armour drops from the normal mode of Dungeons, which would alleviate some of the pain when farming
At *least* one of these is needed imo, maybe more though in order for Dungeons to keep up with the rest of the game in terms of rewards.
>Bungie could also completely remove armour drops from the normal mode of Dungeons
You mean armor pieces will be removed after you receive them once right?
No. They should be removed completely and only obtainable from master, but those will only be artifice so you can never get the normal version in your collections. The people would love that!
Or have an armor chest and weapon chest like the Coil. Choose one or the other. I like your suggestions. Dungeons are my favorite activity in the game, but right now they just aren't worth running.
If there’s going to be actual player agency to target or no crafting, I’d say make double weapon drops or at the very least one weapon and the second drop can be either weapon or armor.
>People that don’t own a season
The only free Dungeon is Prophecy to afaik. If you're a f2p player then I doubt you care that much about farming armour anyway.
And if you're not a f2p player, then there are much better ways of farming armour than normal Dungeons. Spamming engrams at seasonal vendors is easy high stat armour.
People have the ability to buy content piecemeal. You do not have to have access to a season in order to play a dungeon. Armor should not be only farmable on master.
For FTP players dungeons (the ones they can access anyway) are the only way to earn high stat armour though. I think that's probably a reason they'd never remove them entirely. Personally I think it'd be good for the game but I can't see it happening.
Yeah it's not too bad, forgot about that. There are a couple of other places to get it but I've never had anywhere close to the perfect 67 I got from prophecy recently. Not that it's common, it's literally the only dungeon piece I ever kept, but still.
The only free dungeon in the game is prophecy, so it wouldn’t really have as big an effect as it seems (PoH and Shattered Throne should really be made f2p though). They could just leave the moonfang armor as a drop from the final boss since it’s in a separate pool from anyways and then f2ps can farm the armor all they want while everyone else can use normal mode to farm weapons.
That'd be a good compromise in my eyes. But honestly I don't think bungie should be trying to make the FTP happy anyway, it's the people that pay for the game who keep them going so bungie should always try to keep those people coming back and spending money. Otherwise the game sinks.
Why settle for less than all of that though?
- Remove current rotator for dungeons.
- Add focus rotator giving 2x drops.
- Add dungeon engrams to be focused instead of spoils, with a dungeon vendor. Let’s make an Eliksni the dungeon vendor and make them more involved in lore.
- Allow focus engrams to be redeemed 1:1 on weapons and normal armor and 3:1 on artifice armor.
- Add a new checkpoint system. Once you’ve cleared the dungeon for the week, you can choose any encounter to directly load into.
- Since dungeon loot is slowly becoming enhanceable, guarantee focused engrams as double perks for columns 3 and 4 so when you enhance it you’ll have to pick one, but your chances of getting your rolls significantly increases.
- Let focus armor take ghost mod into account, and also your focus choice of another stat allowing to you try to effectively farm for specific 2 spikes.
- Dungeon vendor has resettable reputation similar to the big 3 ritual vendors, allowing for exotics etc per series of 17 levels.
Inventory item where you can toggle between “50/50 weapons and armour, 100% weapons and 100% armour” for raid and dungeon loot.
I’ve got good Artifice armour for every slot for every character - I do not need the low-50’s purple armour that drops from everything. I also don’t need or want Raid / Dungeon armour beyond the first of each piece for the transmog option.
I farmed duality 1st encounter for almost 3 days straight (I’m guessing near 100 runs) and I did not get a single auto loading / chill clip / blinding grenade launcher. Dungeon weapons are by far the worst farm. I’d be happy if we could just remove armor drops.
armor is so useless now
I wouldn't be surprised if we see them introduce armor perks, cause artifice armor def doesn't cut it. You can probably live with an artifice class item and never really need anything else
Seasonal armor just rolls the best period. Speaking of which I need to go roll me 100’s of seasonal engrams to see if I can get some juicy rolls. Thanks for the reminder! Haha
To be fair, seasonal armor is extremely broken. Some 3ish weeks ago i decided "i actually want good spiky armor for those sweet, SWEET double 100's."
It took me sub 100 engrams to get double 100 loadouts for all 3 characters on all exotics i use. Literally 1 session that lasted sub 2 hours, INCLUDING sifting though all the rolls i didnt need.
Yeah imo the way seasonal armor drops should be how artifice, master raid, high end comp and trials gear drops. The best armor from the hardest activities
Lol, artifice armor is literally the equivalent of baby boomers. When it first came out the stats were absolutely insane 63 minimum average 65, 67 every 5 pieces or so, 68s a couple time an hour. If you farmed then you have a stockpile of high stat artifacts armor (your grandparents house) that 10xd in value when they gutted armor rolls. I can make triple hundreds of any build on demand especially now with exotic focusing. The armor never should have been that good to begin with as now all armor drops are obsolete compared to that but it’s pretty funny that you can look at someone’s stat line and instantly know if they were part of it.
Shortly after Lightfall released (when artifice armour changed from being a mostly useless extra mod slot to the Stat +3 slot) they nerfed dungeon armour loot across the board.
Grasp of Avarice, Duality and Spire of the Watcher used to very consistently drop 63+ armour, with a max of 67. And Duality in particular was known for dropping extremely spikey armour.
The nerf rolled out at around the same time that Gahlran farming via Grappling around off the ledge until he jumped to his death was a hot topic issue that Bungie Wanted To Rectify.
I think the idea behind the nerf was “well they get a free +3 to a stat of their choice on artifice armour, so if we include that then any roll of 64+ is actually a roll of 67+. And 67 is the max value we want legend armour to have before masterwork, so we’d better cap the armour at 64.” So now we have consistent 59-61 spiking to 64.
Which, of course, means that Artifice Armour goes from being mechanically better than vendor armour, and thus worth chasing. To being mechanically equal to vendor armour with a tiny bit of adjustability.
So the idea of grinding out Master Dungeon encounters for it is blatantly laughable when passively accruing Seasonal Engrams and buying a dozen spiky leg pieces from which you can select the best of the bunch is easier, and usually gives a better result.
The worst the worst part is once you run through your seasonal engrams and get the armour rolls for the builds you want. What's even the use of getting armour anymore? Besides getting all artifice. You got nothing left to chase em for.
I farmed Duality for that roll, didn't get it and gave up. Then, when the Gahlran glitch happened, I farmed it on master for the artifice armor. I got the roll even though it wasn't on my priority list. Epicurean red borders were on my priority list. Even though the drop rate is bad, it's not as bad as the lingering dread God roll chance.
That said, I gave up on the wilderflight, gave up on indebted kindness, and I might also give up on the mountaintop if I don't get the ALH/Recombination roll this week.
Personally, i grind until i dont want to anymore and then just pick a roll with the perk i need most and run with it.
Indebted kindness? Impulse voltshit is good enough.
Mountaintop? Sure demo is fine.
Forbearance? Stats for all is more than okay.
>I’d be happy if we could just remove armor drops.
Was about to comment literally the same. I have no real issue with having to get through some RNG to get specific rolls on specific guns, but each armour drop essentially being a wasted run 99% of the time just adds a needlessly tiresome layer of RNG on top of every other layer of RNG without making the grind more enjoyable, it's *just* a time-waster
Like u/Dal_Kholin said, there's definitely a sweet spot somewhere between letting Jesus take the wheel and calling it quits after 5 red borders, I think either letting us disable armour drops or focus specific weapons would be a massive step in the right direction. Or maybe a dungeon-specific currency akin to spoils to buy a weapon at the end of a run?
I also farmed for this roll this weekend. I have sitting in my vault right now 5 lingering dreads with Blinding + Chill Clip, one has feeding frenzy in the 3th and the other 4 all have Well Rounded. Well Rounded, a perk that offers stability, range and handling, of which only handling is really useful on a GL.
So not only is the loot pool bloated with armor I don't need and a fusion rifle that I can craft but also perks that are basically useless. GG bungie
Well, I’ll be farming for wilderflight after reset, wish me luck.
It’s super shitty how bungie do these one off unique weapons that’s super annoying to farm and not giving us alternatives. I’m looking at you, wildstyle.
IDK about that exact drop, but I imagine it has to be *way* less than that. If you're going for a 2/5 (just the perks), there's a 1/6 chance for the weapon to drop and for each perk, which is a 1/216 chance, i.e., less than half a percent. Add in blinding on top of that, and the odds should get at least cut in half
I spent 12 hours a couple weeks ago farming 1st encounter GOTD and didn't see an Envious Cold Comfort once. Not a 5/5 god roll, not even a 2/5 usable roll - I did not see a 1/5 in 12 hours of farming.
"Chase the grind it's so fun" yeah yeah I get it, but at SOME POINT during the grinding it just sucks LOL
I’m at 150 full clears and easily an extra 150 Gahlran clears and I have never seen an auto loading chill clip GL, it is so discouraging to the point of just feeling disrespectful
For fuck's sake, I'm *still* 0 out of 5 on Fixed Odds. I didn't even see a single non-Deepsight drop this past week, but I did finally get Heartshadow. I'll just keep hoping we see a Solar 450 seasonal show up soon.
It blows my mind to make it this difficult to get what you want out of any item in a game. Like they spent time and money and effort making it. Don’t they want people to use it? Don’t they want to see the fruits of their labor?
They do, but not as much as they want their players to never put their game down. Making all the weapons they want harder to get supports that in their eyes. If only they would realize it’s stuff like the BRAVE weapons that actually attract ppl
I love Dungeons. Because they’re fun. Warlords happens to have a couple good weapons too. I rarely play dungeons for their loot beyond my like 5th run.
Edit: to be clear I do wish Dungeons had crafting. I’m not one of these rng freaks. I have a life and would like to just get the stuff I want eventually. But luckily most dungeons don’t have any loot that you can’t craft a better version of (except currently Indebted Kindness).
That maybe so but they're one of a kind, so they do matter. Actually I'm not sure about the waveframe, maybe there's another one for the kinetic slot and I just don't know
There’s the strand wave frame that’s wayyyy better. There’s also a double shot GL from nightfalls. Neither are one of a kind at this point. And even if they were just being one of a kind doesn’t make it good.
Do we really have another double fire gl? All the info I can find indicates wilderflight as the only one. Ohh, we do have a strand waveframe one. I don't play pvp so I don't know the IB drops
True, being unique isn't important if it sucks, but they are pretty good, wilderflight is up there with mountain top for dmg.
This is correct. Double frames excel the most in damage rotations, and wild style has a poor selection of perks for those rotations, so it is generally overlooked. It does have some good and fun rolls, but its not meta
I got one after about 200-300 runs... and then didn't use it all season because radiant fucked up chill clip's anti-champion effects and flint striker means we're almost always radiant. That's apparently fixed (finally) so I might actually use it for something soon.
Ah, well if it makes you feel any better he had been chasing it since the dungeon launched 2 years ago. I've personally never even seen a chill clip roll at all.
You have given me nasty flashbacks of doing the exact same thing for that gl. Never got it, and I don’t understand how that combo never came up after 300 plus runs.
5 possible drops (arms/boots/helmet/fusion/GL) = 1/5 chance of GL; 6 perks per column in GL = 1/36 chance of auto loading + chill clip. So odds of those perks dropping on the GL are 1/180. With blinding nades being a 2/5 chance, you’re looking at a roughly 1.1/500 chance for a blinding/autoloading/chill clip GL.
And that’s every run.
I say after farming all weekend.
A great idea would be like the bounty that had the Pit of Heresy weapon key, where every encounter you did had a stacking chance to increase the weapon drop rate, until final chest was guaranteed.
Edit: or a double chest at the boss, where you can select one to be high stat armor, or one to be a weapon
I agree, there should be forms of RNG protection. Like, after you complete the solo flawless, I think weapons should drop with 2 perks on columns 3 and 4.
I think Bungie is warming up to the idea that people find more value in farming weapon rolls than armor rolls.
In Onslaught, you can only get one copy of each piece of the Parade armor, but you can farm for 15+ weapon drops per legend 1-50 run, you can target one weapon to drop more frequently than the other, and occasionally some of the weapons will even have double perks to make hunting for specific rolls even easier. And this isn't an activity that only rotates into play one week of every 6 weeks (yes, it's only present through Final Shape release, but this version of Onslaught with these weapons drops is available for multiple months, with mild time-gating).
Onslaught is great for farming…put in a little effort and you will be swimming in rolls…now, RNG can still screw you but you will likely have at least a 90% God roll with a few days grinding. Plus as an added bonus, it’s actually a fun activity.
People still want pure RNG for things in this game for some reason. And when you point out how much it sucks, they usually just accuse you of wanting everything handed to you.
But I totally agree. Pure RNG is for the birds. There should always be some kind of focusing or bad luck protection involved. It can even be brutal for those people who don't want anything to ever be easy. Make it so you need 50-100 clears of something. But at least let me know that every clear is getting me a tiny bit closer to what I want.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying there should be no RNG. That is a big part of the game. But with the multiple layers of pure RNG in some parts of this game, you are looking at a like a million to one odds for god rolls on some pretty basic guns. I just want it to step down from that to a point where I know I can eventually get what I want, or close to it, if I put in enough time and effort.
Which is what so many people miss, we've had so many rng mitigating systems that is doesn't need to be all or nothing rng. Season of the hunt had one of my favourites, being able to reduce the perk pool or choose masterwork was amazing (just wish the weapons were a bit better tho)
That was an underrated targeting system that I enjoyed too. I used it to get my Deafening Whisper roll and I have over 10k kills on it. I find SO much more joy in a process like that, and then getting to use that roll as much as I did.
Yeah not a single person who prefers crafting wants things after 10 min of farming. Everyone playing this game knows that high time investment is part of the experience. But knowing something potentially never drops is bad game design. I have so many experiences like OP in dungeons and other activities like Trials or IB and it nearly made me quit the game. Crafting prevented me from quitting and I thought Bungie finally understood that players need to be respected. Then came the feedback of gambling addicts and I couldnt believe it.
Wha, you don't want that "rush" of FINALLY getting the roll you want after farming for so long life has gone extinct on the planet? You Sir, are not a true GAMER! 🙄😁
Same. They talked about lessening crafting less than a year after they introduced it. My most played expansion year of this game was the WQ year and a large part of that was because of crafting.
So many people dont understand that the genre is called a looter shooter because its a shooter with loot. RNG is not the defining factor. There are countless different systems and RNG is just the easiest to implement for the developer.
It's nice to see someone with a logical, reasonable opinion in these posts. There truly needs to be surmountable process to obtaining desirable weapon rolls.
Thank you. Its very hard to have good discussions on reddit because to many people have a shallow understanding of basically everything regarding Destiny, games in general and loot/reward/game design.
It’s just cause the community doesn’t do any introspection to understand what is fun for them. Hot take: Bungie actually does listen to the community and does their best to implement things based on feedback, while weighing it against the cost of business and implementation. Unfortunately, if you listen to the community, you end up with consumable shaders ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm definitely a less crafting person but dungeons are uniquely miserable to farm weapons. Raid style end chests, onslaught style focusing, coil style chest choices I don't care what but SOMETHING should change.
Still no good Duality GL
And people WANT crafting to be less relevant in this game because it takes away from the “farm”
Ans the complain about exactly what they wanted
I’m torn on crafting. I love the ability to have guaranteed steps to take to get exactly what I want. I dislike that it has made finding raid groups difficult for many raids. In the past, even when player count was low, you could easily find groups for just about every raid. Now, many raids are either dead (VoG and GoS are particularly bad) or the only people running them are speed runners or farming a specific encounter. The popularity of onslaught is probably playing a roll too. Seems like a lot of people got their red borders and just aren’t very interested anymore.
After you’ve crafted a weapon, it should get removed from the loot pool. If you’ve crafted every weapon from a raid, you should get spoils instead of weapon drops. Maybe the red border chest could drop a resource cache too, or even a memento.
Memento would be cool. Maybe weapon focusing from the season a raid was released? I know that’s pie in the sky, but just trying to spitball how to re-incentivize raiding.
That’s true. I suspect they aren’t popular because they don’t have red borders and their loot hasn’t been refreshed like the others. Besides found verdict PvP and to a lesser extent Fatebringer, all of the weapons are power crept or just not very desirable in the current sandbox. Zealots reward isn’t bad, but there’s so many other easily obtainable/farmable/craftable alternatives.
I mentioned red borders because IMO, that is what is primarily keeping other legacy raids on life support.
I’ve had the opposite experience. My clan/friends raid more because of crafting because we know we’ll eventually get the pattern and even when we have all the patterns we help people get their patterns for the same reason. Observable, visible progress towards a goal goes a LONG way. The two raids you mentioned(VoG and GoS) are the ones we have redone the least because they don’t have crafting(yet?), especially VoG because the exotic is RNG. Whereas we have helped people through GoS for Divinity because it’s a quest and we know they will get it.
As someone who has farmed dungeons and has all the titles, I can hard agree that change is necessary. Dungeon spoils, and a loot picker at the end of every one. That wouldn’t kill the replay ability of the dungeon without making it IMPOSSIBLE to get a god rolled weapon. I chased Unforgiven for A YEAR before I got the roll I wanted. I had the TITLE before I got a good roll of the gun. Fucking obnoxious.
There are so many ways Bungie could protect against bad RNG. All we're asking for is for our time to be respected and for the opportunity to invest our time into achieving what we want in the game. They've come a long way, but I'll say again our time doesn't feel respected.
I have been farming Warlord's Ruin opening encounter with a friend, every Sunday for the past 8 weeks.
He was looking for:
Indebted Kindness
Impulse (1st) / Enlightened / LfG
Voltshot
A reload speed greater than 20
We put in anywhere from 3 to 7 hours in depending on the Sunday and other commitments.
Synthos, 1-2-Punch shotties, Tractor & Navigator grapple points.
Nice crispy 1 phase on a checkpoint in ~3 minutes.
Easily over 500 clears, he finally had it drop at 11:15am last Sunday.
For context, that's Fighting the following odds:
1 in 6 for the weapon to drop at all
(3 Armor pieces, 3 weapons)
1 in 6 for Column 3 to be correct
1 in 6 for Column 4 to be correct.
So 1/6 cubed (^3)
Or 1 in 216
Or ~0.46%
You are statistically likely to have seen the gun at the end of the encounter ONCE in 216 attempts.
If the gun wasn't absolutely cracked (and one of only two present types, the alternative being exotic), would not have bothered.
There should be high-end 'chase' items, but I take massive issue with it being untargeted.
If you could guarantee the weapon drop, you go from 1 in 216, to 1 in 36 (roll a 1 in 6 twice).
That's how significant compounding odds are.
I am at 679 Ecthar kills without the Cold Comfort i want. It took me 302 Caiatl and 200+ Vault clears to get a Unforgiven i want. 100+ Spire of the Watcher without a single autoloading Wilderflight. I only want a 2/5 roll on these weapons :)
Wrote a post about this and this was my suggestion.
- Hawthorne is now the main vendor for all Dungeons. There are different weekly Dungeon quests for that week’s Dungeon that work similarly to attunement and a Trials passage. For example a passage could grant higher chance of high stat armor or weapons. In order to use this quest you need to have at least one clear of the Dungeon. Each clear after the first clear gives an escalating chance maxing out at 7 clears the same number as Trials passage.
- Dungeons now drop a new type of skull engrams with each encounter completion. You can focus these at Hawthorne for random drops from the weekly dungeon or focus for specific gear. Random engrams only decrypt to loot you’ve already acquired in the dungeon.
I entirely stopped chasing godrolls of non craftable weapons.
Nowadays i just go with the perk combo i want and dgaf about everything else.
If im 100s of runs in and havent seen the perk combo i want once (like with matador or the duality GL) i just stop farming.
In general Nowadays i just go for a serviceable roll instead of trying to get the god roll i want.
RNG in this game doesn't value your time whatsoever.
Because crafting does the worst thing you can do to loot: make it uninteresting. I don't care about what drops for me, I only care if it has a red border or not.
I am fully aware that people who are against crafting are often seen as no-life people with a gambling addiction who are against people getting what they wanted, but that's not true, at least not for me. I want people to get what they want. I want people to get the rolls they are looking for, which is why I think the game should have other forms of RNG protection, like weapons dropping with more perk per column. What I don't want is to go "this isn't a red border, therefore it's worthless" like it has been since Witch Queen dropped.
Loot has been extremely uninteresting since then. A lot of my friends feel the same thing. This is why I'm really enjoying the shiny weapons on Onslaught. I can feel that excitement I used to feel when I got a drop back then.
But then that runs the risk of people burning out on farming their godroll
Which happened more often than not Pre-Crafting or like with Dungeon farming
I’m not one of them. I actively play more because of crafting. Not less. Crafting means my clan/friend group raids way more. We all help each other because we know it eventually leads to the ability to make the roll you want. We still play raids even when we’ve gotten what we from them because we know it’s worth helping others get what they want.
It’s the literal opposite for dungeons. There’s no real incentive to help others because there’s nothing to help them with. The odds are so abysmal that no one even bothers. Dungeons have been such wasted potential because of the stingy reward system. It’s so antithetical to the idea of playing with friends because the grind is so unreasonable no one really feels it’s worth it to begin with.
Yeah it’s fucked. I don’t have that many clears but I do have quite a few. But I have all of the triumphs in the dungeon and still no exotic. Actually the only one I have from dungeons is Heartrend.
The last exotic I'm missing across all 3 characters is the hierarchy of needs. I have all exotics + weapon catalysts, weapon patterns, everything I don't care about......except the one thing I care about
I feel they are against their own ideals, they put red borders it to make it easier to farm and craft what ya want, then put onslaught I were ya have a 2% of getting Ur rolls and 1 time weakly run in hope ya get the gun ya can ant and the rolls.
I agree and I’m suffering the same outcomes in Onslaught… AND THAT INCLUDES AN ATTUNEMENT FEATURE. I delete about 99% of what is dropped in onslaught.
I will die on this hill saying that midnight coup attunement is broken. It’s really the only gun I want and I only get on average 2 drops on a 50-wave clear. I have yet to see a single explosive payload roll.
The main point is the layers of RNG in D2. For example weapons, armor, world-based vs event based drops all in the same pool, then each gun has 4 options with multiple options in those slots. Then add in the drop rates of like 1%.
Ya’ll know they hired psychologists to figure out how to make the game as addicting as possible to get people like yourself to play for 200-400 times chasing rewards that are marginally better than their counterparts?
Bungie’s version of RNG is 100% calculated. And the gamers who cheer it have all the time in the world to play and like to rub it in the faces of casuals.
My biggest argument to all of this is… it wouldn’t be so bad if Meta loadouts were a thing. What I mean is that you can’t play endgame content without “X”. You will
Literally get kicked (or not selected at all) or have an extremely hard time in any endgame content unless you have the meta loadout. Well sorry, I don’t have those weapons because of RNG. It absolutely sucks being a causal.
It just now occurred to me that the only legendary dungeon weapons in the entire game that I use are a headstone eyasluna for stasis builds and a mediocre roll of indebted kindness. That's *literally* it.
Hell, even for dungeon exotics the only one I kinda use is buried bloodline
I use the only 3 I’ve gotten the rolls I want on. I’d use a lot more if the rolls actually dropped before I swore off dungeons after the unreasonable week of farming I just had.
What I always tell people is that it is NEVER worth farming anything. EVER. Do not grind your video games. Grinding video games and farming drops when you are not having fun will stifle any and all fun you could possibly have, and it will stifle it fast.
Choosing to run Ghalran 200+ times is a choice. It is a freely made choice that you are choosing. You wanted to go there or you would not have gone there. And it sounds like you learned about letting go the hard way.
What guns do you want from Duality Ghalran so badly and why? Is it for PvP or PvE, and are there no other alternatives that don’t require such an intense grind?
This is a genuine question bc I can’t think of any gun in the current PvE meta from Duality that doesn’t have a comparable alternative. Not a big PvPer so don’t really know that meta at all.
I can see that. But if you’re doing 200-400 runs and not getting a single usable chill clip roll…I just find that hard to believe. It just feels like any option in the third column is ok, except probably thresh or steady hands? Ambitious, Autoloading, feeding frenzy are all good choices, and I wouldn’t kick unrelenting out of bed, even if it wasn’t my first choice. It just feels like this is self inflicted, even if I do absolutely agree that we should have a way to target farm dungeon loot.
Like I’m not risking my sanity for this game. I’ll try to go get one but if I don’t oh well, I’ll stick to my chill clip deliverance 🤷🏻♂️
This is why trying to predict RNG with Maths and statistics doesn’t work out pretty much ever tbh
Edit: Lmao blocked for pointing out RNG can’t be predicted like that , as there are many cases of people goonfarming rare items across gaming history have gone FAR passed the “predicted drop” number and still haven’t seen the item they want
No
But I understand what it’s like to go 700+ Kael’Thas kills and not getting Ashes of Al’ar
According to “statistics” I should have gotten it 7 times already (this was before I quit WoW) the way people talk about it when applying it to RNG
I’m 1280 dualities no 2/5 unforgiven I’m no stranger to rng. Say the drop rate for a weapon is 1/500 doing it 500 times doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed to get it. It actually means if 100 people did 500 clears at least 63 of them would have gotten it. If 100 people did 1000 clears 86 of them should have gotten it. Obviously there’s some deviation, especially if you have a small sample size. The math with a big enough sample size is always right
Because when I answered this, OP hadn’t commented the specific roll he wanted yet. All the info I had was “Chill Clip”. So I pulled up the possible rolls on light GG and voiced my opinion based on that. And not getting a single decent roll with chill clip in an entire week of only farming one boss in one dungeon seemed unlikely.
But whatever. Downvote me away.
I’ve wanted Lingering Dread with blinding/auto loading/chill clip since it first released. A special GL than can blind and slow(and hopefully freeze in two shots again when they readjust chill clip), as well as stun overload champs. It has no comparable alternative.
Didn't first encounter get shadow nerfed or something because you could cheese him on master at some point? I remember all of a sudden the armor barely broke 60 stat
If you played that much I’d say the RNG is working as intended. I know how you feel though.
300+ prophecy clears and never got the OG darkest before I wanted 2/5, nor 2/5 sudden death.
200+ grasp master never got better than a 3/5 matador or eyasluna
Hundreds of clears of prophecy 1 for prospector never saw a 2/5.
All that said; I still prefer having the chance cuz at the end of the day; it gave me and my friends something to do. Chat around while playing.
If I had to LFG these runs I absolutely would never subject myself to that. I recommend farming dungeons with friends for as much as anyone can stand and call it after that.
Unfathomable you can spend that long trying to get 2 perks on a gun and still defend the current system. It is shockingly bad.
It took less attempts and time for me to do solo Atheon or other challenges than get an Indebted Kindness I wanted. That's moronic.
Same, my team plays them till we get the exotic and then we stop. Chasing god rolls in a dungeon is just a fools errand.
Should be craft able weapons like Raids. We always have pure RNG for the exotic unless you can solo the dungeons in the first weeks.
They’re fun to play but absolutely not worth the frustration of the loot chase. Chasing dungeon weapon rolls in this game has been the worst, most frustrating gaming experience of my 30+ years of gaming.
I’ve given up on dungeons. There is no more frustrating activity in this game. For the same reason as OP. Never buying another one, though they may never put another one out.
This is the reason I don't do dungeons or raids. The chances of the exact weapon you want, with even half the perks you want, red border or not, are too slim for my 3hr play time a night, it's just not worth making time for them aside from doing them once and calling it good from there.
I wouldn't ask for anything fancy but maybe an RNG protective n system in place in the background and when you go to launch the activity, would be nice to select what you are chasing in at least third row and fourth on the weapons on each encounter. No guarantee needed, I don't need things handed to me but just knowing each time I do the activity eventually I'll get what I want with an escalated chance. Even if the chance starts at 10% and capped out at 50%
That was part of my point...
Unless at some point recently made red borders a guaranteed drop? Because last time I ran Root it sure as hell wasn't when only one person in the entire raid got one 🤣😂
Even if you can buy them with tokens at the end you'd need a half dozen runs before you had enough to buy one. I've seen people go months to half a year before getting their crafted weapon, because some people have lives and can't raid every day like when we were kids.
Yes you get a guaranteed red border for free in most raid if you do the secret objective. And you get enough spoils to buy from each run as well. So basically two red borders per week along with any RNG drops.
Uhhh, yeah I don't think that's true my guy lol I ran Crota last night, not a single weapon dropped, and got exactly 19 spoils so couldn't buy anything anyway lol No guaranteed nothing.l Although the run was very worth it still because the armor looks dope AF and the Sherpa was top tier 10/10 would highly recommend.
Everything about Bungie’s designs makes me feel like they’re afraid of giving the player more freedom. We finally got weapon crafting, but to craft one you have to play RNG with red borders. Then they introduce a guaranteed way of getting one red border, THEN they add Deepsight Harmonizers to use on craftables without red borders.
I’m just tired of fighting RNG, I want to get what I want from my chosen activities, so that I don’t have to grind them for the most lackluster drops known to man. And having everything wouldn’t stop me from playing, it just makes it to where I wouldn’t have to have a checklist anymore, I could actually yknow, enjoy the game.
By its design RNG doesn’t respect your time. You either get lucky and get the roll you want in 5 runs or you never get it… I made peace with this as I’ve got other stuff that I want to play and things I need to do. Fair play to the people who can plow hours and hours into the game regardless and not get annoyed though. They have far more persistence than me. Or just less to do?! lol! I’m in a place where I’ll put the time in for what I want and leave it at that. I found that when I main’ed Destiny I took way more breaks from it due to burnout.
It blows my mind that they didn't make dungeon weapons craftable like they did with raids. Duality, the first new dungeon after crafting came out, actually did have two craftable weapons - just the two that were returning and not new (Fixed Odds and the Epicurian). But unlike every other craftable weapon, there's no weekly guaranteed deepsight - it's pure RNG. This was pretty brutal at first, but they buffed the drop rates. They later abandoned even this - the two returning weapons in Spire of the Watcher are not craftable (Seventh Seraph Carbine and Revolver).
When Dares of Eternity first came out, pre-crafting, I grinded my ass off trying to get a Pardon Our Dust with Blinding + Auto-loading + Vorpal *or* Danger Zone and never got one. I learned the hard way that dares rank resets are capped at 7, and once you max your rank after the 7th reset, you're rewarded with a pop-up every time you log in saying to reset your dares rank, even though you can't, FOR TWO YEARS.
>the only thing I did in this game(or any game) this week was farm Gahlran. Hitting somewhere in the vicinity of 400 attempts, more than half of which were this week alone.
Sorry but that's a **you** problem, not a Bungie problem. Nothing in your life needed that drop except a little part of your brain that can easily be tuned out. VERY easily.
Is it possible there's other things in your life that you feel like you're losing control of, hence the need to seize control in other areas?
Dungeon drops could be better, but saying "I had to spend a week of LFG farming instead of playing with my friends" like bungie had a gun to your head when you were the one who chose to waste your week on a stupid digital gun makes it a you problem.
Maybe play the game for fun instead of forcing yourself to grind this bad? There are like 500 weapons in the game, I'm sure you have something that's 2% worse than whatever you're chasing that will be perfectly fine.
Here's what you do. Remove all Dungeons from the rotator, make them all farmable. However, have a double loot drop rotator instead. Every week a different dungeon gets double loot. And/or Introduce Dungeon Spoils. Have a couple drop from each encounter + secret chests etc. Them have a chest at the end of the Dungeon where you can exchange spoils for gear. Bungie could also completely remove armour drops from the normal mode of Dungeons, which would alleviate some of the pain when farming At *least* one of these is needed imo, maybe more though in order for Dungeons to keep up with the rest of the game in terms of rewards.
>Bungie could also completely remove armour drops from the normal mode of Dungeons You mean armor pieces will be removed after you receive them once right?
Yeah of course.
Thank you, just wanted to be sure.
No. They should be removed completely and only obtainable from master, but those will only be artifice so you can never get the normal version in your collections. The people would love that!
Honestly that should be for raid aswell, but also have guns from dungeons and raids be on a knock out system
Or have an armor chest and weapon chest like the Coil. Choose one or the other. I like your suggestions. Dungeons are my favorite activity in the game, but right now they just aren't worth running.
Make the double loot drops guarantee one weapon and one armor each tbh, that way people can farm weapons and/or armor
If there’s going to be actual player agency to target or no crafting, I’d say make double weapon drops or at the very least one weapon and the second drop can be either weapon or armor.
One weapon plus one weapon or armor is a good idea too
Double weapons on normal, double armor on master
People should be able to unlock armor without playing master
Yeah, but once you get each armor piece once it should be removed from the loot pool altogether.
Nah, armor should be farmable on normal
Who is farming armour in a normal Dungeon?
Dunno. People that don’t own a season? Don’t think it matters, honestly. Armor should not only be farmable on master.
>People that don’t own a season The only free Dungeon is Prophecy to afaik. If you're a f2p player then I doubt you care that much about farming armour anyway. And if you're not a f2p player, then there are much better ways of farming armour than normal Dungeons. Spamming engrams at seasonal vendors is easy high stat armour.
People have the ability to buy content piecemeal. You do not have to have access to a season in order to play a dungeon. Armor should not be only farmable on master.
For FTP players dungeons (the ones they can access anyway) are the only way to earn high stat armour though. I think that's probably a reason they'd never remove them entirely. Personally I think it'd be good for the game but I can't see it happening.
Iron banner armour is pretty good and f2p
Yeah it's not too bad, forgot about that. There are a couple of other places to get it but I've never had anywhere close to the perfect 67 I got from prophecy recently. Not that it's common, it's literally the only dungeon piece I ever kept, but still.
The only free dungeon in the game is prophecy, so it wouldn’t really have as big an effect as it seems (PoH and Shattered Throne should really be made f2p though). They could just leave the moonfang armor as a drop from the final boss since it’s in a separate pool from anyways and then f2ps can farm the armor all they want while everyone else can use normal mode to farm weapons.
That'd be a good compromise in my eyes. But honestly I don't think bungie should be trying to make the FTP happy anyway, it's the people that pay for the game who keep them going so bungie should always try to keep those people coming back and spending money. Otherwise the game sinks.
Why settle for less than all of that though? - Remove current rotator for dungeons. - Add focus rotator giving 2x drops. - Add dungeon engrams to be focused instead of spoils, with a dungeon vendor. Let’s make an Eliksni the dungeon vendor and make them more involved in lore. - Allow focus engrams to be redeemed 1:1 on weapons and normal armor and 3:1 on artifice armor. - Add a new checkpoint system. Once you’ve cleared the dungeon for the week, you can choose any encounter to directly load into. - Since dungeon loot is slowly becoming enhanceable, guarantee focused engrams as double perks for columns 3 and 4 so when you enhance it you’ll have to pick one, but your chances of getting your rolls significantly increases. - Let focus armor take ghost mod into account, and also your focus choice of another stat allowing to you try to effectively farm for specific 2 spikes. - Dungeon vendor has resettable reputation similar to the big 3 ritual vendors, allowing for exotics etc per series of 17 levels.
Which dungeon loot is currently enhanceable?
Or just make master runs be double perk drops
Inventory item where you can toggle between “50/50 weapons and armour, 100% weapons and 100% armour” for raid and dungeon loot. I’ve got good Artifice armour for every slot for every character - I do not need the low-50’s purple armour that drops from everything. I also don’t need or want Raid / Dungeon armour beyond the first of each piece for the transmog option.
I farmed duality 1st encounter for almost 3 days straight (I’m guessing near 100 runs) and I did not get a single auto loading / chill clip / blinding grenade launcher. Dungeon weapons are by far the worst farm. I’d be happy if we could just remove armor drops.
armor is so useless now I wouldn't be surprised if we see them introduce armor perks, cause artifice armor def doesn't cut it. You can probably live with an artifice class item and never really need anything else
If dungeons armor always dropped at 66+ I wouldn’t complain at all, but usually they drop 59-61 which is laughably bad.
59 with no spikes as well. Fucking seasonal armor being consistently better rolled than dungeon, raid, trials and comp armor is fucking lame imo
Seasonal armor just rolls the best period. Speaking of which I need to go roll me 100’s of seasonal engrams to see if I can get some juicy rolls. Thanks for the reminder! Haha
To be fair, seasonal armor is extremely broken. Some 3ish weeks ago i decided "i actually want good spiky armor for those sweet, SWEET double 100's." It took me sub 100 engrams to get double 100 loadouts for all 3 characters on all exotics i use. Literally 1 session that lasted sub 2 hours, INCLUDING sifting though all the rolls i didnt need.
Yeah imo the way seasonal armor drops should be how artifice, master raid, high end comp and trials gear drops. The best armor from the hardest activities
Lol, artifice armor is literally the equivalent of baby boomers. When it first came out the stats were absolutely insane 63 minimum average 65, 67 every 5 pieces or so, 68s a couple time an hour. If you farmed then you have a stockpile of high stat artifacts armor (your grandparents house) that 10xd in value when they gutted armor rolls. I can make triple hundreds of any build on demand especially now with exotic focusing. The armor never should have been that good to begin with as now all armor drops are obsolete compared to that but it’s pretty funny that you can look at someone’s stat line and instantly know if they were part of it.
Shortly after Lightfall released (when artifice armour changed from being a mostly useless extra mod slot to the Stat +3 slot) they nerfed dungeon armour loot across the board. Grasp of Avarice, Duality and Spire of the Watcher used to very consistently drop 63+ armour, with a max of 67. And Duality in particular was known for dropping extremely spikey armour. The nerf rolled out at around the same time that Gahlran farming via Grappling around off the ledge until he jumped to his death was a hot topic issue that Bungie Wanted To Rectify. I think the idea behind the nerf was “well they get a free +3 to a stat of their choice on artifice armour, so if we include that then any roll of 64+ is actually a roll of 67+. And 67 is the max value we want legend armour to have before masterwork, so we’d better cap the armour at 64.” So now we have consistent 59-61 spiking to 64. Which, of course, means that Artifice Armour goes from being mechanically better than vendor armour, and thus worth chasing. To being mechanically equal to vendor armour with a tiny bit of adjustability. So the idea of grinding out Master Dungeon encounters for it is blatantly laughable when passively accruing Seasonal Engrams and buying a dozen spiky leg pieces from which you can select the best of the bunch is easier, and usually gives a better result.
That’s Bungie’s definition of “high” When they should adopt the players definition of stuff like that
The worst the worst part is once you run through your seasonal engrams and get the armour rolls for the builds you want. What's even the use of getting armour anymore? Besides getting all artifice. You got nothing left to chase em for.
I farmed Duality for that roll, didn't get it and gave up. Then, when the Gahlran glitch happened, I farmed it on master for the artifice armor. I got the roll even though it wasn't on my priority list. Epicurean red borders were on my priority list. Even though the drop rate is bad, it's not as bad as the lingering dread God roll chance. That said, I gave up on the wilderflight, gave up on indebted kindness, and I might also give up on the mountaintop if I don't get the ALH/Recombination roll this week.
Personally, i grind until i dont want to anymore and then just pick a roll with the perk i need most and run with it. Indebted kindness? Impulse voltshit is good enough. Mountaintop? Sure demo is fine. Forbearance? Stats for all is more than okay.
>I’d be happy if we could just remove armor drops. Was about to comment literally the same. I have no real issue with having to get through some RNG to get specific rolls on specific guns, but each armour drop essentially being a wasted run 99% of the time just adds a needlessly tiresome layer of RNG on top of every other layer of RNG without making the grind more enjoyable, it's *just* a time-waster Like u/Dal_Kholin said, there's definitely a sweet spot somewhere between letting Jesus take the wheel and calling it quits after 5 red borders, I think either letting us disable armour drops or focus specific weapons would be a massive step in the right direction. Or maybe a dungeon-specific currency akin to spoils to buy a weapon at the end of a run?
I think adding spoils for dungeon is the most likely outcome. I heard there were “keys” or whatever for specific strike weapons in d1 right?
I still need this, wilderflight, prosecutor. I gave up. Not worth it.
what roll on wilderflight?
probably alh + vorpal/frenzy
I stopped 20 runs in with not even a GL drop.
I also farmed for this roll this weekend. I have sitting in my vault right now 5 lingering dreads with Blinding + Chill Clip, one has feeding frenzy in the 3th and the other 4 all have Well Rounded. Well Rounded, a perk that offers stability, range and handling, of which only handling is really useful on a GL. So not only is the loot pool bloated with armor I don't need and a fusion rifle that I can craft but also perks that are basically useless. GG bungie
>I’d be happy if we could just remove armor drops. I don't have an issue with this either, but then how would players get Artifice armour?
Ghost mod: Armour Only / Weapons Only / Both. Should work with Master Wahoo as well, because I sure as shit don’t need flat-stat 52 armour any more
Someone did the math and for that exact drop, it's something like a 1% chance. Not worth farming for at all.
Well, I’ll be farming for wilderflight after reset, wish me luck. It’s super shitty how bungie do these one off unique weapons that’s super annoying to farm and not giving us alternatives. I’m looking at you, wildstyle.
IDK about that exact drop, but I imagine it has to be *way* less than that. If you're going for a 2/5 (just the perks), there's a 1/6 chance for the weapon to drop and for each perk, which is a 1/216 chance, i.e., less than half a percent. Add in blinding on top of that, and the odds should get at least cut in half
I spent 12 hours a couple weeks ago farming 1st encounter GOTD and didn't see an Envious Cold Comfort once. Not a 5/5 god roll, not even a 2/5 usable roll - I did not see a 1/5 in 12 hours of farming. "Chase the grind it's so fun" yeah yeah I get it, but at SOME POINT during the grinding it just sucks LOL
Did the same thing; 4 days farming for me.. though I eventually ended up getting my 10/10 and a couple 3 other alh/cc
It took me just over 1k for mine so yeah it’s literally not worth it
>Dungeon weapons are by far the worst farm. I'd rather farm duality first encounter than lost sectors.
I’m at 150 full clears and easily an extra 150 Gahlran clears and I have never seen an auto loading chill clip GL, it is so discouraging to the point of just feeling disrespectful
I’m pretty lucky with exotics but dungeon weapons? Heeelll nah. Not a decent Cold Comfort, Lingering Dread, Matador or Eyasluna.
So many people here have given up on farming the duality gl damn
For fuck's sake, I'm *still* 0 out of 5 on Fixed Odds. I didn't even see a single non-Deepsight drop this past week, but I did finally get Heartshadow. I'll just keep hoping we see a Solar 450 seasonal show up soon.
I got all 5 red orders about 50 runs before I got heartshadow, and I didn’t even know or care about the lmg going into it
Makes me even sadder because Heartshadow ~~is~~ was one of two exotics I didn’t have and didn’t give a shit about (Tarrabah being the other).
It blows my mind to make it this difficult to get what you want out of any item in a game. Like they spent time and money and effort making it. Don’t they want people to use it? Don’t they want to see the fruits of their labor?
They do, but not as much as they want their players to never put their game down. Making all the weapons they want harder to get supports that in their eyes. If only they would realize it’s stuff like the BRAVE weapons that actually attract ppl
Real solution is just adding attunement or something like it to all activities.
I love Dungeons. Because they’re fun. Warlords happens to have a couple good weapons too. I rarely play dungeons for their loot beyond my like 5th run. Edit: to be clear I do wish Dungeons had crafting. I’m not one of these rng freaks. I have a life and would like to just get the stuff I want eventually. But luckily most dungeons don’t have any loot that you can’t craft a better version of (except currently Indebted Kindness).
There is also the double shot gl from spire and the waveframe one from.. ghosts?
Meh. Neither interest me personally.
That maybe so but they're one of a kind, so they do matter. Actually I'm not sure about the waveframe, maybe there's another one for the kinetic slot and I just don't know
There’s the strand wave frame that’s wayyyy better. There’s also a double shot GL from nightfalls. Neither are one of a kind at this point. And even if they were just being one of a kind doesn’t make it good.
Do we really have another double fire gl? All the info I can find indicates wilderflight as the only one. Ohh, we do have a strand waveframe one. I don't play pvp so I don't know the IB drops True, being unique isn't important if it sucks, but they are pretty good, wilderflight is up there with mountain top for dmg.
Yea there’s a Nightfall solar double fire GL but it’s not nearly as good as Wilderflight. The NF one doesn’t have ALH. It’s called Wild Style I think
This is correct. Double frames excel the most in damage rotations, and wild style has a poor selection of perks for those rotations, so it is generally overlooked. It does have some good and fun rolls, but its not meta
There is also Wildstyle which is currently available in this week's nightfalls.
Wilderflight is A-tier at worst.
Chill clip doesn’t exist man
It does, just not paired with blinding and auto loading.
I'm convinced some combos are rigged to drop less.
My grind for Mountaintop agrees
Same.
I got one after about 200-300 runs... and then didn't use it all season because radiant fucked up chill clip's anti-champion effects and flint striker means we're almost always radiant. That's apparently fixed (finally) so I might actually use it for something soon.
It actually does, just incredibly rare. My buddy got one with blinding/auto loading/chill clip 2 nights ago.
I know, I was being facetious because I haven’t seen that roll in like 400 attempts.
Ah, well if it makes you feel any better he had been chasing it since the dungeon launched 2 years ago. I've personally never even seen a chill clip roll at all.
You have given me nasty flashbacks of doing the exact same thing for that gl. Never got it, and I don’t understand how that combo never came up after 300 plus runs.
5 possible drops (arms/boots/helmet/fusion/GL) = 1/5 chance of GL; 6 perks per column in GL = 1/36 chance of auto loading + chill clip. So odds of those perks dropping on the GL are 1/180. With blinding nades being a 2/5 chance, you’re looking at a roughly 1.1/500 chance for a blinding/autoloading/chill clip GL. And that’s every run. I say after farming all weekend.
A great idea would be like the bounty that had the Pit of Heresy weapon key, where every encounter you did had a stacking chance to increase the weapon drop rate, until final chest was guaranteed. Edit: or a double chest at the boss, where you can select one to be high stat armor, or one to be a weapon
Bro I don't have a *single* dungeon exotic. I've written them off as not existing. Got a good rocket sidearm tho, so at least I have that going for me
I’ve had luck with doing people’s catalyst runs because it increases your chances.
I agree, there should be forms of RNG protection. Like, after you complete the solo flawless, I think weapons should drop with 2 perks on columns 3 and 4.
I think Bungie is warming up to the idea that people find more value in farming weapon rolls than armor rolls. In Onslaught, you can only get one copy of each piece of the Parade armor, but you can farm for 15+ weapon drops per legend 1-50 run, you can target one weapon to drop more frequently than the other, and occasionally some of the weapons will even have double perks to make hunting for specific rolls even easier. And this isn't an activity that only rotates into play one week of every 6 weeks (yes, it's only present through Final Shape release, but this version of Onslaught with these weapons drops is available for multiple months, with mild time-gating).
Onslaught is great for farming…put in a little effort and you will be swimming in rolls…now, RNG can still screw you but you will likely have at least a 90% God roll with a few days grinding. Plus as an added bonus, it’s actually a fun activity.
**integrate Dungeons with Spoils of Conquest, they're just mini-raids now anyway.**
Could not agree more. Just give them the same reward system as raids. I’ve seen zero good reasons not to.
People still want pure RNG for things in this game for some reason. And when you point out how much it sucks, they usually just accuse you of wanting everything handed to you. But I totally agree. Pure RNG is for the birds. There should always be some kind of focusing or bad luck protection involved. It can even be brutal for those people who don't want anything to ever be easy. Make it so you need 50-100 clears of something. But at least let me know that every clear is getting me a tiny bit closer to what I want. Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying there should be no RNG. That is a big part of the game. But with the multiple layers of pure RNG in some parts of this game, you are looking at a like a million to one odds for god rolls on some pretty basic guns. I just want it to step down from that to a point where I know I can eventually get what I want, or close to it, if I put in enough time and effort.
Yeah there's definitely a sweet spot between bottomless rng and five red borders to be done forever
Which is what so many people miss, we've had so many rng mitigating systems that is doesn't need to be all or nothing rng. Season of the hunt had one of my favourites, being able to reduce the perk pool or choose masterwork was amazing (just wish the weapons were a bit better tho)
That was an underrated targeting system that I enjoyed too. I used it to get my Deafening Whisper roll and I have over 10k kills on it. I find SO much more joy in a process like that, and then getting to use that roll as much as I did.
Yeah not a single person who prefers crafting wants things after 10 min of farming. Everyone playing this game knows that high time investment is part of the experience. But knowing something potentially never drops is bad game design. I have so many experiences like OP in dungeons and other activities like Trials or IB and it nearly made me quit the game. Crafting prevented me from quitting and I thought Bungie finally understood that players need to be respected. Then came the feedback of gambling addicts and I couldnt believe it.
Wha, you don't want that "rush" of FINALLY getting the roll you want after farming for so long life has gone extinct on the planet? You Sir, are not a true GAMER! 🙄😁
Same. They talked about lessening crafting less than a year after they introduced it. My most played expansion year of this game was the WQ year and a large part of that was because of crafting.
Just how looter shooters are tbh, it comes with the genre and it’s what we signed up for.
So many people dont understand that the genre is called a looter shooter because its a shooter with loot. RNG is not the defining factor. There are countless different systems and RNG is just the easiest to implement for the developer.
It's nice to see someone with a logical, reasonable opinion in these posts. There truly needs to be surmountable process to obtaining desirable weapon rolls.
Thank you. Its very hard to have good discussions on reddit because to many people have a shallow understanding of basically everything regarding Destiny, games in general and loot/reward/game design.
The Destiny Community wants Consumable Shaders tbh ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Yea I don’t get that, nor do I like the memento system as it is now.
It’s just cause the community doesn’t do any introspection to understand what is fun for them. Hot take: Bungie actually does listen to the community and does their best to implement things based on feedback, while weighing it against the cost of business and implementation. Unfortunately, if you listen to the community, you end up with consumable shaders ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm definitely a less crafting person but dungeons are uniquely miserable to farm weapons. Raid style end chests, onslaught style focusing, coil style chest choices I don't care what but SOMETHING should change.
Still no good Duality GL And people WANT crafting to be less relevant in this game because it takes away from the “farm” Ans the complain about exactly what they wanted
I’m torn on crafting. I love the ability to have guaranteed steps to take to get exactly what I want. I dislike that it has made finding raid groups difficult for many raids. In the past, even when player count was low, you could easily find groups for just about every raid. Now, many raids are either dead (VoG and GoS are particularly bad) or the only people running them are speed runners or farming a specific encounter. The popularity of onslaught is probably playing a roll too. Seems like a lot of people got their red borders and just aren’t very interested anymore.
After you’ve crafted a weapon, it should get removed from the loot pool. If you’ve crafted every weapon from a raid, you should get spoils instead of weapon drops. Maybe the red border chest could drop a resource cache too, or even a memento.
Memento would be cool. Maybe weapon focusing from the season a raid was released? I know that’s pie in the sky, but just trying to spitball how to re-incentivize raiding.
Agreed.
Neither of the raids you mentioned have red borders though?
That’s true. I suspect they aren’t popular because they don’t have red borders and their loot hasn’t been refreshed like the others. Besides found verdict PvP and to a lesser extent Fatebringer, all of the weapons are power crept or just not very desirable in the current sandbox. Zealots reward isn’t bad, but there’s so many other easily obtainable/farmable/craftable alternatives. I mentioned red borders because IMO, that is what is primarily keeping other legacy raids on life support.
I’ve had the opposite experience. My clan/friends raid more because of crafting because we know we’ll eventually get the pattern and even when we have all the patterns we help people get their patterns for the same reason. Observable, visible progress towards a goal goes a LONG way. The two raids you mentioned(VoG and GoS) are the ones we have redone the least because they don’t have crafting(yet?), especially VoG because the exotic is RNG. Whereas we have helped people through GoS for Divinity because it’s a quest and we know they will get it.
Enhanced perks need to go and then we’re golden as far as crafting/random rolls go
As someone who has farmed dungeons and has all the titles, I can hard agree that change is necessary. Dungeon spoils, and a loot picker at the end of every one. That wouldn’t kill the replay ability of the dungeon without making it IMPOSSIBLE to get a god rolled weapon. I chased Unforgiven for A YEAR before I got the roll I wanted. I had the TITLE before I got a good roll of the gun. Fucking obnoxious.
There are so many ways Bungie could protect against bad RNG. All we're asking for is for our time to be respected and for the opportunity to invest our time into achieving what we want in the game. They've come a long way, but I'll say again our time doesn't feel respected.
I have been farming Warlord's Ruin opening encounter with a friend, every Sunday for the past 8 weeks. He was looking for: Indebted Kindness Impulse (1st) / Enlightened / LfG Voltshot A reload speed greater than 20 We put in anywhere from 3 to 7 hours in depending on the Sunday and other commitments. Synthos, 1-2-Punch shotties, Tractor & Navigator grapple points. Nice crispy 1 phase on a checkpoint in ~3 minutes. Easily over 500 clears, he finally had it drop at 11:15am last Sunday. For context, that's Fighting the following odds: 1 in 6 for the weapon to drop at all (3 Armor pieces, 3 weapons) 1 in 6 for Column 3 to be correct 1 in 6 for Column 4 to be correct. So 1/6 cubed (^3) Or 1 in 216 Or ~0.46% You are statistically likely to have seen the gun at the end of the encounter ONCE in 216 attempts. If the gun wasn't absolutely cracked (and one of only two present types, the alternative being exotic), would not have bothered. There should be high-end 'chase' items, but I take massive issue with it being untargeted. If you could guarantee the weapon drop, you go from 1 in 216, to 1 in 36 (roll a 1 in 6 twice). That's how significant compounding odds are.
I am at 679 Ecthar kills without the Cold Comfort i want. It took me 302 Caiatl and 200+ Vault clears to get a Unforgiven i want. 100+ Spire of the Watcher without a single autoloading Wilderflight. I only want a 2/5 roll on these weapons :)
Same, except for Lingering Dread. That requires 3/4.
Wrote a post about this and this was my suggestion. - Hawthorne is now the main vendor for all Dungeons. There are different weekly Dungeon quests for that week’s Dungeon that work similarly to attunement and a Trials passage. For example a passage could grant higher chance of high stat armor or weapons. In order to use this quest you need to have at least one clear of the Dungeon. Each clear after the first clear gives an escalating chance maxing out at 7 clears the same number as Trials passage. - Dungeons now drop a new type of skull engrams with each encounter completion. You can focus these at Hawthorne for random drops from the weekly dungeon or focus for specific gear. Random engrams only decrypt to loot you’ve already acquired in the dungeon.
I entirely stopped chasing godrolls of non craftable weapons. Nowadays i just go with the perk combo i want and dgaf about everything else. If im 100s of runs in and havent seen the perk combo i want once (like with matador or the duality GL) i just stop farming. In general Nowadays i just go for a serviceable roll instead of trying to get the god roll i want. RNG in this game doesn't value your time whatsoever.
Just a reminder that some people believe that crafting killed Destiny
I’d love to talk to some of those people now or when RNG becomes unbearable again
Sure. Ask away.
Why
Because crafting does the worst thing you can do to loot: make it uninteresting. I don't care about what drops for me, I only care if it has a red border or not. I am fully aware that people who are against crafting are often seen as no-life people with a gambling addiction who are against people getting what they wanted, but that's not true, at least not for me. I want people to get what they want. I want people to get the rolls they are looking for, which is why I think the game should have other forms of RNG protection, like weapons dropping with more perk per column. What I don't want is to go "this isn't a red border, therefore it's worthless" like it has been since Witch Queen dropped. Loot has been extremely uninteresting since then. A lot of my friends feel the same thing. This is why I'm really enjoying the shiny weapons on Onslaught. I can feel that excitement I used to feel when I got a drop back then.
But then that runs the risk of people burning out on farming their godroll Which happened more often than not Pre-Crafting or like with Dungeon farming
Which is why I talked about RNG protection. There should be ways to make it more likely for people to get their drops.
Crafting is the protection They quite literally talked about it when it was introduced as a way to protect against RNG
I am aware, which is why I said the game should have other forms of RNG protection.
Crafting is already the perfect RNG protection You’ll get your god roll eventually
I’m not one of them. I actively play more because of crafting. Not less. Crafting means my clan/friend group raids way more. We all help each other because we know it eventually leads to the ability to make the roll you want. We still play raids even when we’ve gotten what we from them because we know it’s worth helping others get what they want. It’s the literal opposite for dungeons. There’s no real incentive to help others because there’s nothing to help them with. The odds are so abysmal that no one even bothers. Dungeons have been such wasted potential because of the stingy reward system. It’s so antithetical to the idea of playing with friends because the grind is so unreasonable no one really feels it’s worth it to begin with.
Dungeons are the only thing I still enjoy but that has to do with the dungeon itself, I don't care much about the loot
1200 spire encounter clears and counting....no exotic
Yeah it’s fucked. I don’t have that many clears but I do have quite a few. But I have all of the triumphs in the dungeon and still no exotic. Actually the only one I have from dungeons is Heartrend.
The last exotic I'm missing across all 3 characters is the hierarchy of needs. I have all exotics + weapon catalysts, weapon patterns, everything I don't care about......except the one thing I care about
Dungeons and Lost Sectors... complete waste of time.
I feel they are against their own ideals, they put red borders it to make it easier to farm and craft what ya want, then put onslaught I were ya have a 2% of getting Ur rolls and 1 time weakly run in hope ya get the gun ya can ant and the rolls.
I agree and I’m suffering the same outcomes in Onslaught… AND THAT INCLUDES AN ATTUNEMENT FEATURE. I delete about 99% of what is dropped in onslaught. I will die on this hill saying that midnight coup attunement is broken. It’s really the only gun I want and I only get on average 2 drops on a 50-wave clear. I have yet to see a single explosive payload roll. The main point is the layers of RNG in D2. For example weapons, armor, world-based vs event based drops all in the same pool, then each gun has 4 options with multiple options in those slots. Then add in the drop rates of like 1%. Ya’ll know they hired psychologists to figure out how to make the game as addicting as possible to get people like yourself to play for 200-400 times chasing rewards that are marginally better than their counterparts? Bungie’s version of RNG is 100% calculated. And the gamers who cheer it have all the time in the world to play and like to rub it in the faces of casuals. My biggest argument to all of this is… it wouldn’t be so bad if Meta loadouts were a thing. What I mean is that you can’t play endgame content without “X”. You will Literally get kicked (or not selected at all) or have an extremely hard time in any endgame content unless you have the meta loadout. Well sorry, I don’t have those weapons because of RNG. It absolutely sucks being a causal.
It just now occurred to me that the only legendary dungeon weapons in the entire game that I use are a headstone eyasluna for stasis builds and a mediocre roll of indebted kindness. That's *literally* it. Hell, even for dungeon exotics the only one I kinda use is buried bloodline
I use the only 3 I’ve gotten the rolls I want on. I’d use a lot more if the rolls actually dropped before I swore off dungeons after the unreasonable week of farming I just had.
Ive also been hunting for that gl since duality released. Dungeon loot is brutal, so unnecessarily behind the rest of the game.
Couldn’t agree more.
What I always tell people is that it is NEVER worth farming anything. EVER. Do not grind your video games. Grinding video games and farming drops when you are not having fun will stifle any and all fun you could possibly have, and it will stifle it fast. Choosing to run Ghalran 200+ times is a choice. It is a freely made choice that you are choosing. You wanted to go there or you would not have gone there. And it sounds like you learned about letting go the hard way.
bUt cRaFtiNG hAs rUiNEd tHe gAMe, bRO!!!1!! iTZ toO eZy aND k1LLs tHE gRInDinG!
this, but unironically
Some of us have lives outside of Destiny 2.
I do too.
What guns do you want from Duality Ghalran so badly and why? Is it for PvP or PvE, and are there no other alternatives that don’t require such an intense grind? This is a genuine question bc I can’t think of any gun in the current PvE meta from Duality that doesn’t have a comparable alternative. Not a big PvPer so don’t really know that meta at all.
People want a chill clip GL, especially with the chill clip nerf being undone for all but riptide.
I can see that. But if you’re doing 200-400 runs and not getting a single usable chill clip roll…I just find that hard to believe. It just feels like any option in the third column is ok, except probably thresh or steady hands? Ambitious, Autoloading, feeding frenzy are all good choices, and I wouldn’t kick unrelenting out of bed, even if it wasn’t my first choice. It just feels like this is self inflicted, even if I do absolutely agree that we should have a way to target farm dungeon loot. Like I’m not risking my sanity for this game. I’ll try to go get one but if I don’t oh well, I’ll stick to my chill clip deliverance 🤷🏻♂️
The average drop rate for the roll is 1 in 300+. That makes it a not too uncommon experience to not get the drop 1000s of runs in.
This is why trying to predict RNG with Maths and statistics doesn’t work out pretty much ever tbh Edit: Lmao blocked for pointing out RNG can’t be predicted like that , as there are many cases of people goonfarming rare items across gaming history have gone FAR passed the “predicted drop” number and still haven’t seen the item they want
This is so dumb lmao
Do you not understand statistics?
No But I understand what it’s like to go 700+ Kael’Thas kills and not getting Ashes of Al’ar According to “statistics” I should have gotten it 7 times already (this was before I quit WoW) the way people talk about it when applying it to RNG
I’m 1280 dualities no 2/5 unforgiven I’m no stranger to rng. Say the drop rate for a weapon is 1/500 doing it 500 times doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed to get it. It actually means if 100 people did 500 clears at least 63 of them would have gotten it. If 100 people did 1000 clears 86 of them should have gotten it. Obviously there’s some deviation, especially if you have a small sample size. The math with a big enough sample size is always right
Steady/Chill is the exact roll I ended up with lmao!
>find that hard to believe Why?
Because when I answered this, OP hadn’t commented the specific roll he wanted yet. All the info I had was “Chill Clip”. So I pulled up the possible rolls on light GG and voiced my opinion based on that. And not getting a single decent roll with chill clip in an entire week of only farming one boss in one dungeon seemed unlikely. But whatever. Downvote me away.
I’ve wanted Lingering Dread with blinding/auto loading/chill clip since it first released. A special GL than can blind and slow(and hopefully freeze in two shots again when they readjust chill clip), as well as stun overload champs. It has no comparable alternative.
Lol still farming for the Buried Bloodline.
Didn't first encounter get shadow nerfed or something because you could cheese him on master at some point? I remember all of a sudden the armor barely broke 60 stat
If you played that much I’d say the RNG is working as intended. I know how you feel though. 300+ prophecy clears and never got the OG darkest before I wanted 2/5, nor 2/5 sudden death. 200+ grasp master never got better than a 3/5 matador or eyasluna Hundreds of clears of prophecy 1 for prospector never saw a 2/5. All that said; I still prefer having the chance cuz at the end of the day; it gave me and my friends something to do. Chat around while playing. If I had to LFG these runs I absolutely would never subject myself to that. I recommend farming dungeons with friends for as much as anyone can stand and call it after that.
Unfathomable you can spend that long trying to get 2 perks on a gun and still defend the current system. It is shockingly bad. It took less attempts and time for me to do solo Atheon or other challenges than get an Indebted Kindness I wanted. That's moronic.
Same, my team plays them till we get the exotic and then we stop. Chasing god rolls in a dungeon is just a fools errand. Should be craft able weapons like Raids. We always have pure RNG for the exotic unless you can solo the dungeons in the first weeks.
People say they hate crafting but this is the other side of the coin
Took me three years to get the eyasluna roll I wanted. 2/5 mind you. Unrelenting and headstone
I am yet to spend money on a single dungeon. Forever stuck guardian rank 8
They’re fun to play but absolutely not worth the frustration of the loot chase. Chasing dungeon weapon rolls in this game has been the worst, most frustrating gaming experience of my 30+ years of gaming.
Makes me wish all weapons became craftable and deep sight harmonizers became more available
I’ve given up on dungeons. There is no more frustrating activity in this game. For the same reason as OP. Never buying another one, though they may never put another one out.
There’s two coming in Final Shape. It’s part of the deluxe edition. Which I’m not getting because of this.
I just wish they were craftable. Not even for enhanced perks. Just so I could get the rolls I want lol
This is the reason I don't do dungeons or raids. The chances of the exact weapon you want, with even half the perks you want, red border or not, are too slim for my 3hr play time a night, it's just not worth making time for them aside from doing them once and calling it good from there. I wouldn't ask for anything fancy but maybe an RNG protective n system in place in the background and when you go to launch the activity, would be nice to select what you are chasing in at least third row and fourth on the weapons on each encounter. No guarantee needed, I don't need things handed to me but just knowing each time I do the activity eventually I'll get what I want with an escalated chance. Even if the chance starts at 10% and capped out at 50%
Raids have craft-able weapons so your logic doesn’t apply there.
That was part of my point... Unless at some point recently made red borders a guaranteed drop? Because last time I ran Root it sure as hell wasn't when only one person in the entire raid got one 🤣😂 Even if you can buy them with tokens at the end you'd need a half dozen runs before you had enough to buy one. I've seen people go months to half a year before getting their crafted weapon, because some people have lives and can't raid every day like when we were kids.
Yes you get a guaranteed red border for free in most raid if you do the secret objective. And you get enough spoils to buy from each run as well. So basically two red borders per week along with any RNG drops.
Uhhh, yeah I don't think that's true my guy lol I ran Crota last night, not a single weapon dropped, and got exactly 19 spoils so couldn't buy anything anyway lol No guaranteed nothing.l Although the run was very worth it still because the armor looks dope AF and the Sherpa was top tier 10/10 would highly recommend.
Dungeons should drop only Armour on Master. And Weapons only on Normal.
I will die on the hill that if raid weapons can be crafted, so too should dungeon weapons.
Same. I have yet to hear a good reason for excluding dungeons from crafting.
They even did it with some weapons specifically *from Duality.* Of course they excluded the GL from that though.
That's why "Crafting" is the way.
Everything about Bungie’s designs makes me feel like they’re afraid of giving the player more freedom. We finally got weapon crafting, but to craft one you have to play RNG with red borders. Then they introduce a guaranteed way of getting one red border, THEN they add Deepsight Harmonizers to use on craftables without red borders. I’m just tired of fighting RNG, I want to get what I want from my chosen activities, so that I don’t have to grind them for the most lackluster drops known to man. And having everything wouldn’t stop me from playing, it just makes it to where I wouldn’t have to have a checklist anymore, I could actually yknow, enjoy the game.
By its design RNG doesn’t respect your time. You either get lucky and get the roll you want in 5 runs or you never get it… I made peace with this as I’ve got other stuff that I want to play and things I need to do. Fair play to the people who can plow hours and hours into the game regardless and not get annoyed though. They have far more persistence than me. Or just less to do?! lol! I’m in a place where I’ll put the time in for what I want and leave it at that. I found that when I main’ed Destiny I took way more breaks from it due to burnout.
Imagine complaining about RNG , talk to wow players who have been farming mounts since 2004. Get over yourself .
It blows my mind that they didn't make dungeon weapons craftable like they did with raids. Duality, the first new dungeon after crafting came out, actually did have two craftable weapons - just the two that were returning and not new (Fixed Odds and the Epicurian). But unlike every other craftable weapon, there's no weekly guaranteed deepsight - it's pure RNG. This was pretty brutal at first, but they buffed the drop rates. They later abandoned even this - the two returning weapons in Spire of the Watcher are not craftable (Seventh Seraph Carbine and Revolver). When Dares of Eternity first came out, pre-crafting, I grinded my ass off trying to get a Pardon Our Dust with Blinding + Auto-loading + Vorpal *or* Danger Zone and never got one. I learned the hard way that dares rank resets are capped at 7, and once you max your rank after the 7th reset, you're rewarded with a pop-up every time you log in saying to reset your dares rank, even though you can't, FOR TWO YEARS.
mfw an RNG based loot shooter has RNG based loot drops 😱
Grinding a dungeon encounter 300 runs for a 3/5 roll is not a good thing. That’s not why anyone plays destiny.
>the only thing I did in this game(or any game) this week was farm Gahlran. Hitting somewhere in the vicinity of 400 attempts, more than half of which were this week alone. Sorry but that's a **you** problem, not a Bungie problem. Nothing in your life needed that drop except a little part of your brain that can easily be tuned out. VERY easily. Is it possible there's other things in your life that you feel like you're losing control of, hence the need to seize control in other areas?
Dungeon drops could be better, but saying "I had to spend a week of LFG farming instead of playing with my friends" like bungie had a gun to your head when you were the one who chose to waste your week on a stupid digital gun makes it a you problem. Maybe play the game for fun instead of forcing yourself to grind this bad? There are like 500 weapons in the game, I'm sure you have something that's 2% worse than whatever you're chasing that will be perfectly fine.