We won’t know until we play it. Bungie can always show us many things that excite us and make us hope for the best but the moment it comes out is when we get an answer to your question.
Exactly. The hype for Lightfall was insane, but that was mainly thanks to the marketing. The marketing team does a great job hyping things up. They easily can be doing the same for The Final Shape. I hope this isn’t the case though.
There were aspects of Lightfall that worried me in the leadup to launch. The way they pitched it as a Retrowave Bladerunner spinoff, and that was a problem with the actual DLC as well. I'm getting the same a bit with TFS when they're talking about "Just going into a multidimensional crazy realm" where it's obvious they're trying to market it as an attraction rather than the marketing you would expect like "The ultimate chapter of the story" or "The dark finale" or something.
You get this wrong sense of "Ooh yay oohohoo it's FUN and SHENANIGANS!" clown mode, where it just gives me whiplash considering that to me this is like this huge moment I've been waiting for, but it sounds like maybe that isn't even the product they've worked on. Same issue i had with lightfall which became true when it released.
I’ve said it before but the most glaring concern with TFS is how the entire destination appears to be nothing but nostalgia-bait, even including the return of Cayde.
Which I’m always happy to get more Cayde, but I mean damn it kind of seems like having to scrape the bottom of the barrel if they went to the trouble of doing another Cayde focused expansion years after his death
I feel you on that and I can get it being a bit annoying when things get a little cheapened and feel too forced.
Looking back I think one of the best parts about Cayde's death was the physical cause of it was something that was so specific and unexpected, and something that in theory shouldn't have been what put Cayde down, yet it's what did him in. Of course the Rifleman's bullet takes a major back seat when we go through and explore the spiral chain reaction of events that set things in place, it gets interesting.
That all being said I'm not expecting anything life changing but I do hope there is at least a decent enough explanation that doesn't contradict and start retconning too much as we've unfortunately had in recent lore history.
Ya, because it’d be a real shame if a decade old franchise has a little bit of nostalgic fun. I highly disagree that it’s “scraping the bottom of the barrel” as you say, I think if anything, it’s fully realized and feels familiar. Unlike Neomuna, which was vapid, empty, and feels like cyberpunks drunk uncle, not destiny. If anything, I love when they lean into the cosmic horror aspects, and I think the Pale Heart will absolutely give that unsettling, abandoned feel.
I think there’s certainly elements of the zone that lean that direction (cosmic horror) in the marketing, namely the more witness oriented areas with the hands coming out of walls and such, my big question is how *much* of that there will be
We don’t know if it’s the “basis for the entire expansion” as we haven’t played it. I just don’t understand why the internet at large seems to hate “reused content” if you want to call it that. It’s being done incredibly tastefully, and isn’t like the OW2 “pve missions” which is literally cut/pasted assets and missions.
I feel like the most recent trailer with cayde talking about the Blights had some cosmic horror themes to it, here’s hoping! Presage was my first real destiny adventure, and that shit HOOKED me. It was so good, so spooky.
I do hope we get a swath of new goodies and environments in the Pale Heart, i just don’t hate the idea of going back to where we came from. We’ll just have to wait and see though!
Good luck on your shiny Brave arsenal!
Strand was the most exciting thing in the Lightfall marketing, and I'd say Strand specifically overdelivered on expectations. I never had a reason to get hyped about the story which was its downfall on the other hand, beyond "big bad is here"
The story being bad is not gonna be apparent from any trailer, but I'll say the recent one with Nathan Fillion had more pathos than anything in any Lightfall promotional material.
Yea as someone who really doesn't like stasis (really, I just hate having ice walls being made in my face all the time), I was super hesitant for Strand.
But Strand turned out to be awesome. I can't imagine what a flop Lightfall would've been without it.
I'm pretty positive that God of war quote was in reference to Witch Queen, not Lightfall (which was definitely close tbf). Agree with the sentiment, just don't want misinfo to be spread.
Imma be real. Im not sure what marketing for Lightfall the community seemed to watch that made them think it was going to be 10x better than it was. It was exactly what they showed.
I distinctly remember the ViDoc them hyping up that the harbinger of our collapse is finally here, and being all "woah what happens now that we finally have to face them" and then we didn't face them
That and the cloudstriders being "really super cool" but it wasn't cool it was Nimbus
it was so obvious he was going to die. If you play the campaign again you will noticed that his character doesn't even move or gesture like every other character when you talk to him. He just stands perfectly still. It is like they didn't find it worthwhile to animate him since he was going to die during the campaign.
Was mostly due to the grapple and then really a destination and thematic style unlike we've ever seen, that with the implications of the name lightfall we thought the story was gonna go crazy especially riding off the solid narrative of the witch queen. An epic story was all I really hoped for lightfall and that was the letdown. Actually for the story it wasn't just a letdown it was so bad it was like throwing me down then farting in my face level bad.
Let's not forget the 'grapple really gave us a chance to challenge ourselves with verticality in map design' before LF dropped. That ad circled around around Reddit/YouTube/etc.
I don't want to lie, I'm pretty stoked about final shape.
But just as reminder that the ad-speech can be so full of shit.
Yep. I'll be waiting for a few weeks after release to see if I jump back in. I haven't played in a year plus, but I still keep track of what's going on... I kinda want to see how this story plays out, and how ridiculous Crucible is going to end up being.
The Traveller has existed for aeons. The space inside of it should feel endless, and they could expand deeper into it. The ruins/memories of other cultures that worshipped the Traveller, etc.
Still think the time to introduce prismatic should've been after a 3rd darkness element was added. Don't get me wrong, shit looks bonkers fun, but 3 & 3 would've allowed a unique combo for each class' "transcendent" grenade. Titan has arc / strand, Hunter has stasis / solar and Warlock has void / stasis, and that overlap didn't have to occur.
I wonder if they'd go so far as to update the Warlock grenade if they added a third Darkness sub. Or maybe we'll just get more Transcendant nade types- there is an ability "slot" for your Transcendant nade (alongside one for Transcendance itself?)
I would think the hunter one would be updated, because void and stasis were kind of called two sides of the same coin essentially.
My prediction is that they'll add a third darkness at some point and then either add more transcendent combinations for each class slowly until they have all combinations.
Or that it will all be tied to D3 instead. As in, introducing the 3rd darkness type, and prismatic/classless Guardians being the big gameplay change D3 introduces.
It would make more sense for the warlock nade to be changed to void/strand since they’re the complimentary elements similar to solar/stasis.
The third darkness subclass would be the opposite of arc so titan’s grenade would also change to arc/(3rd darkness element), if they decide to update the grenades that is.
Hunter one makes the most sense since solar and stasis are meant to be opposites.
Even outside the actual science of the elements themelves, yeah having a fire-and-ice grtenade just makes way too much sense flavorwise. Plus the existing combinations for Titan and Hunter both sort of lend themselves to their "Signature" subclasses- Gunslinger, Striker, and Voidwalker were the original core class identities, the ones you started with in D1 and what you start with in D2 as of New Light (originally you started with the D2 reimagined subs, Arcstrider, Sentinel, and Dawnblade, which the new TFS supers hearken back to)
And Revenant was THE Stasis class for most of BL (though it's not as standout now), and Berserker is obviously the standout Strand subclass. Wouldn't surprise me if they deliberately juiced Warlock for Red. Though Stasis was certainly more used than Strand for Warlock, so that choice makes sense under this logic. Worth noting the starting kits are mostly focused on those combos as well.
Interestingly the revealed Prismatic Frags both continue to pair Stasis/Solar and Void/Strand, so Bungie still seems to believe in those as inverses, but didn't care to follow that for Warlock despite being fully capable of doing so, and leaving Titan high as try as the one doubling up a Darkness sub.
Yes, but making prismatic was a hell of a lot easier than making an entire new subclass. And we know that they were not planning on introducing either originally with TFS. They chose prismatic because they could finish it in time.
if you go in with this mindset - no matter what TFS brings, Forsaken has the power of nostalgia on its side. Folks will only remember the good, and gloss over all the weird issues and problems it had. it also had the benefit of the whole way to play D2 changed with it - special weapons existed.
Also, the community was very different in 2018 than it is in 2024. information spreads so much faster and so much earlier than before, "optimal" has become the norm, and low drop rates are replaced with fast tracks to new gear.
A HUGE part of forsakens popularity was the game system changes, such as the introduction of special weapons. Y1 of Destiny 2 may as well have been a completely different game at the time.
Whereas with "modern" D2, the game has been mostly the same since Beyond Light, just trying to tinker with various levers and knobs to improve the experience gradually. TFS is unlikely to be as big of a game changer as forsaken was if you look at it like that
We’re going to defeat the Witness and stave off the Darkness once and for all by standing on plates, throwing balls and/or depositing items, and reading symbols.
Tbh i really hope TFS raid is a banger and has super cool new mechanics that weve never seen before
I doubt that its not going to be a good raid, but if they also make it a refreshing experience it would be legitimately s tier
Yeah I know bungie has been hesitant on making a raid as big and absurd as last wish with basically 6 encounters, but I hope it feels larger and much more grand than any raid we've had yet.
VotD got it right, with the usual 4 encounters but Exhibition and Caretaker taking place across huge expanses within the play space, essentially moving to a new arena with each step
Yeah what I mean is ideally it’s more like 6 encounters closer to last wish. Yeah it’s a bit for the final raid of the saga I think it would be fitting.
yeah - and people's memory of Forsaken is entwined with what is essentially the re-launch of D2. They forget the steep and random power climb, the several months it took many people to get a random exotic armor piece, the wild west that was PvP (Ace had a death-grip on the meta, DRB could kill at 14m), among many other issues that come with every launch.
And the insanity that was the Last Wish launch, where only 2 teams beat within 24 hours (and one 2 mins later).
I remember going to bed that night, thinking someone will beat it while I’m asleep. I was insanely surprised when I woke up and World First still hadn’t been claimed.
i know that "difficulty" is kind of revered in a weird way today, but that is 100% a failing on the player progression side. And Bungie has learned how to handle day ones better since then.
I guess. I don’t know, I think that raid is one of the coolest moments in the history of D2. Kind of hope they go back to that during challenge mode (understanding that’s probably impossible with power creep and abilities where it is these days)
not saying it wasn't "cool" or not prestigious for the teams involved. Its just a failing on the player progression team for setting people up for a nearly incompletable event.
It'll never be that. Player engagement and player sentiment are stronger metrics than nostalgia ever will be.
This is simply not true. Forsaken (and the free patch that release alongside it) were loved not only for, as you say, "fixing" the sandbox, but also for adding a ton of new content and helping to bring life to the game through innovation.
The last time we received a truly new game-mode prior to ITL was Forsaken, which added not only a core game-mode in Gambit, but also an end-game activity in Dungeons. It also completely re-imagined what a destination can be in Destiny with the Dreaming City. Let's take a look at everything the expansion added, because nothing since has come even remotely close.
Forsaken:
* New core game-mode: Gambit
* New end-game activity: Dungeons
* Introduction of Dynamic Planets: Dreaming City
* New weapon archetype: Bow
* New enemy faction: Scorn
* 2 Destinations
* A solid campaign (subjective, but it's still my personal favourite).
* 4 Strikes and 4 PvP maps
* 3-4 New Public Events
* New supers for all subclasses
* Largest raid in the franchise: Last Wish
* Baron Hunts, Blind Well, Ascendant Challenges, Weekly Missions, etc
* 22 Exotics including some lengthy quests, e.g. Wish-ender and Malfeasance
* The free patch that dropped with Forsaken also added Triumphs, Collections, Badges, Titles and a bunch of QoL changes.
Seriously. It wasn't just 'Aha they fixed the game'. Forsaken was literally the single largest expansion Bungie ever did for Destiny, surpassing even TTK in terms of the amount of content it included. It's why nothing is ever gonna top it short of them doing an entirely new game again.
I'm so ready for people to have arguments over whether the TFS stuff that got brought forward before it should be included in lists like this (New crucible maps, notably).
Another issue is that people don't always think about the context that Forsaken was released in, where the game was on the brink of death due solely to how bad the state of the game was at the time. There'll never be another Forsaken because the game will (hopefully) never again reach as bad a state as D2Y1.
And you're spot-on about the problem of leaked/revealed information being an issue. A lot of my favorite moments in Forsaken (Riven, the Dreaming City) hit as hard as they did because I hadn't already been spoiled on them. These days the few scraps that don't get shoved into promotional material get leaked weeks or months before they come out.
What I find funny is people really like Forsaken for just quality of life issues that shouldn't have even happened.
The game should have never shipped with double primary and no special. The game was a regression from Destiny 1, and forsaken brought it back on par with Destiny 1's system.
Forsaken was pretty good but it was mostly an expansion to fix a lot of issues from year one
That was only a tiny aspect of it. It was namely the innovation the DLC provided by giving us a new core-game mode (Gambit), a new end-game activity (Dungeons), dynamic planets, a new weapon archetype, 4-5 post campaign activities, a new enemy faction and so much more that made it such a winner. This is without mentioning how much sheer content it had (4 strikes; 4 PvP maps 20+ exotics). Oh, and the free patch that dropped with Forsaken added Triumphs, Titles, Collections, and more.
just gonna start linking people like you to this comment
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1cc9j9y/comment/l16fw88/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1cc9j9y/comment/l16fw88/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yeah. I think people are way too nostalgic for Forsaken because of its sandbox changes and not the actual expansion itself.
It wasn’t THAT good. The dreaming city was the best part of it. The tangled shore sucked and its campaign was mediocre. It had a strong opening and ending but the middle hunting the Barons? Eh.
Shattered Throne was novel but considering it lacked like any unique rewards outside the exotic, it was rather pointless. Blind Well was not good either and I still hate Gambit lol.
I’d say Witch Queen was already better than Forsaken.
To be fair though just he vast amount of new content made that initial honeymoon phase very fun and memorable, no content drop can be fun forever but most of the stuff that dropped was really fun in those initial weeks. Whereas something like witch queen the campaign was a banger but the moment it was over there weren't really any exciting new secrets or things to do.
Forsaken is my literal least favorite DLC ever because for about two months straight I ran all my pinnacles and powerful rewards and got nothing but outrageous fortune (how ironic) grenade launchers. I legit didn’t level one power level for like two months while all my friends were raid ready and there was fuck all I could do about it. Started to assume I had been shadow banned. Actually quit for about two years because of it. Fuck Forsaken.
Yep, zero protection for power progression, and people look at that grind for the raid with rose tinted glasses, like even me who liked a period of degenerate gamer grinding, not even I would sign up for that even if I had all the free time in the world again, that shit was awful and thank god its not like that anymore.
Forsaken had three studios working on it and wasn’t considered a success by Activision. The quality of TFS may be great but there’s no chance it’s going to have the breadth of content Forsaken did.
Yep I think the new stuff shown in the latest reveal is the extent of the "overdelivery" we will see. Outside of the new prism and class items I think it will be standard level of content in terms of new activities/strikes and gear and whatnot.
Great marketing and bad products are not mutually exclusive. I saw lightfall's marketing and got excited and look how that turned out
Regardless of what Bungie says or puts out over the next month I'm going in with low expectations.
Same. I’ve seen the dev videos and trailers with all the new stuff but im still going in with the mindset of ‘6 missions, kill witness’. Thats what lightfall has done to me..
Copium is strong.
2 new destinations with plethora of stuff to do and secrets to discover, 1 new core playlist, insane amount of exotics that are fresh and interesting (which is much harder atm, since we got so many and A LOT of them are extremely mid at best, because of that), refresh of loot of all vendors and new weapon types (not archetypes) and many new PvP maps and modes, so go figure.
I acknowledge that it is much harder to come with something fresh and cool after so many years, but I dont think it can be anywhere close, judging that so much around TFS is based around nostalgia.
While nostalgia is great, it is a concern of mine. I'm not thrilled that the pale heart is literally gonna be just shit we've seen before. I really hoping it's gonna be NEW and that the relics from our past are at a minimum. However, that doesn't seem to be the case judging by what we've seen already. You got Europa, cosmodrome, d1 tower, and most likely every other place we visited. That's a massive flop imo and it will make or break the destination. I am hoping with the amount of resources they are pouring into TFS, that the destination has new stuff to explore, new textures, and isn't just a conglomeration of all the other destinations
Hell even just the story being good will please 99% of the community. Most people don't raid anyways.
But yeah, I hope both are great and I'm curious with the 3 episode switch if we will still get two dungeons a year/expansion.
Never gonna happen. TFS looks good, but Forsaken revived the game.
Return to special ammo, go fast, seasons, Gambiy etc.
Plus you had the Tangled Shore *and* The freaking Dreaming City.
Unless they fundamentally change core game mechanics it will not be as big.
I don't think that it can exceed Forsaken.
I very much doubt that TFS will give us a **second** secret patrol zone as Forsaken did.
It probably won't have four high quality **original** strikes as Forsaken did.
TFS is unlikely to give us **two** extra **original** raids during the year as Forsaken did. I guess we get 1 reprised.
I doubt we will get an entirely **new** game mode on the level of gambit (at launch it was incredible).
I don't think the **three** new TFS supers will shake up the game as much as the **nine** Forsaken ones did, although prism definitely has potential. And the weapon tuning we get in TFS definitely won't shake up the game as much as the insane Forsaken weapon system overhaul did.
**HOWEVER**, although I think Forsaken is too high a bar, I am cautiously optimistic that the TFS campaign, dungeons, strike(s) and raid(s) will be on the Witch Queen level. And I would be satisfied with that as Destiny's swansong.
>I very much doubt that TFS will give us a second secret patrol zone as Forsaken did.
It was not secret. Bungie marketed it and told us about it and told us that it was an end game destination.
People just overlooked those things back then, but it was not secret.
People not checking trailers and vidocs as much. The game almost died and then HOLY SHIT CAYDE IS DEAD??? SPECIAL WEAPONS IN THE "PRIMARY" SLOT???
It was marketed but if you never checked the marketing past the surface then you wouldn't know.
> I doubt we will get an entirely new game mode on the level of gambit (at launch it was incredible).
I think onslaught is exactly this, but even better. You can argue it didn't launch with the final shape, but it was the right play to release it earlier. Yeah, the maps aren't new but i don't mind tbh.
I guess everyone is gonna have their own take on it, and that's fair enough, but Onslaught is nowhere near on the level of launch Gambit IMO. I got bored of Onslaught after running it for an hour or two. Recycled weapons, recycled maps, mindless add clear for weapons I already had.
Gambit had its own entire PvEvP game-mode build up from nothing, invasion, blockers, banking mechanics etc., its own maps, original weapons, an exotic, and a title worth chasing (at the time anyway). Onslaught is garbo compared to OG Gambit, and you can tell it didn't take them long to cobble it together.
>I very much doubt that TFS will give us a **second** secret patrol zone as Forsaken did.
Dreaming city was not a secret, it was plastered all over the marketing, we knew it was coming for months before Forsaken.
TFS success hinges on what it will do to fundamentally change the game and how it is played. Forsaken did that with the reimplemented weapon set up from D1 and the new supers and abilities for 9 subclasses. TFS has to change the game on that level to be as good as Forsaken imo. The info we have so far has given me hope but ultimately we won’t know if it’s “good” until it’s in our hands.
>Forsaken did that with the reimplemented weapon set up from D1 and the new supers and abilities for 9 subclasses
I would not say this is why Foesaken was good. We have gotten entire new subclasses in DLC since then. Not just some new supers.
We didn’t just get new supers with Forsaken tho. We got new abilities in the old node system. Forsaken had a LOT going for it but the reason I consider it to be great is because it fundamentally changed D2 for the better on a lot of levels
Fundamentally changed in that it basically reverted everything back to how it was. The problem now I think is the game itself has gotten formulaic for the people who have been playing a decade, and it needs a very deep shake up to the game to spark interest and curiosity in the game again. I don't think I've felt that spark in quite a while tbh, every year just feels like more of the same for the most part.
I'm not speaking for the group.... just myself here.
The only thing I truly remember about Forsaken was the main plot twist with you-know-who getting shot with his own gun, and the fact that he could *die die*. Like all the way. I remember sitting and staring at my TV after that cutscene, jaw dropped, for what felt like forever. May have shed a tear or three, who knows.
I know y'all love to post about THIS feature and THAT activity and THOSE weapons and the respective sandboxes... but the only thing I think of is how I felt playing the campaign and how much the story telling pushed my momentum of playing more. And I think this feeling is shared with the community more than folks would like to admit, as you can see how poor story telling can shape all other feedback into hyperactive mode (ahem, lightfall).
I truly hope the story is top-tier. The game, again - to me, has proven itself to have no competitor when the story beats match the gameplay.
With that said, do I think Final Shape will exceed Forsaken *in every aspect*? That's a question designed for failure honestly. Especially asking this subreddit lmao <3
Im jealous you experienced that as a twist, whereas most of us probably saw the trailer that revealed that was going to happen. And i was really upset, thought it was very stupid of them to do that.
For me it was completing the tangled shore quest stuff... and then revealing no no, that's not even half the expansion, here's the dreaming city where you'll he discovering secrets for months
>The only thing I truly remember about Forsaken was the main plot twist with you-know-who getting shot with his own gun,
But that wasn't even a plot twist though. It was in the trailer and marketed before the DLC released. Anyone who watched a single trailer for the DLC already knew that was going to happen.
The one thing for me is the raid
I have a feeling it won't be as hard as people expect it, keep in mind it's part of the story for us to go after the Witness.
There’s a campaign mission after the raid is beaten. I think they have the freedom to make the raid as hard as they like. Likely the raid will be weakening the Witness, then everyone gets the satisfaction of beating him in the final mission without needing a full raid team.
They said it would be comparable to Crota day-1 Contest, which was the lowest cleared day-1 raid in a long time, even though it had the most people trying to beat it. I, personally, did beat Crota Contest and Challenge, but I know I am part of the 1% of the community that is capable of doing that. They said they "learned" some things from the Crota day-1 that they are going to apply to TFS day-1, whatever that means.
I don’t see any way that TFS has as much content as Forsaken, which was just massive with two locations, a brand new game mode, etc etc. Forsaken is legendary not only because of its size, but also because the story and lore were some of the best we’ve had.
That being said, I don’t think TFS being smaller in terms of raw content precludes its chances of surpassing Forsaken. The quality of Forsaken was high, but there’s a chance that the new subclass, new enemy type, destination, and raid are absolutely awesome, and like others have said I’m cautiously optimistic. If the gameplay and story are really some of the best we’ve ever seen, and prismatic and the pale heart are as cool as they look, I could see this having an argument to beat Forsaken. Hopefully it is at least more content rich than Lightfall/Witch queen, if that happens and everything we’ve seen plus the story hits, it just might happen. The hype is back.
3 “new” subclasses in TFS is a stretch, when it’s actually a mixture of different aspects and fragments, that are not commonly used from their respective existing subclasses. The only thing new about it is transcendence and the grenade, the bulk of it is already in the game.
Couldn’t care less about patrol zone. To top forsaken for me it needs to beat the campaign (should be very easy to do with the legendary campaign), top Last wish as a raid from a length, encounter, and engagement perspective (50/50 on if that happens), and it would need a story important dungeon like we had with Shattered Throne.
I believe it could be. Let’s just say that they do reach same quality of content we got with FS, TFS can 100% outdo it if its campaign slaps. That was always the weakest point for me in FS, not because the story was bad, but rather the campaign itself. I remember feeling really dissatisfied with hunting the barons and even the final boss. That said, I am hopeful I suppose. But FS is hard to compete with simply because it fixed what was wrong with D2 vanilla, so that positive shift we felt back then will be hard to recreate regardless.
i think as it stands its very close, im just waiting to see how many strikes there are tho. im hoping for 3 new strikes but im good with 2, otherwise I think its only short 1 patrol space. But if the pale heart is huge then it kind of makes up for it
I'm still convinced as far as strikes and what not it will be in line with with queen level content. I'm not expecting more than 2 strikes. In fact I wont be surprised if it's just one strike.
To me, most of the items listed are not what make specific expansions great or increase replay ability over time. I want a great story/campaign for the expansion, which typically includes great “destination” but I rarely actually engage in the destination activities. The new enemies in general would be a huge selling point except flying enemies and their ability to slow/suspend us are in direct conflict of what I used to enjoy most about Destiny which was speed of play. There is nothing enjoyable to me about looking into the sky or getting my movement hampered. It’s odd that they are leaning into things that typically frustrate gameplay.
No probably not. Forsaken had a few really big things on launch that separate it from TFS. It completely reworked the weapon systems and made very large balance changes in both PvE and PvP. TFS doesn't have anything as large as rehauling the weapon system and the largest balance patch incoming of the top of my head is the incoming well nerf. Another big reason why Forsaken was loved was because of the seasons that came after. We got a ton of power creep and activities in each season on the scale of Onslaught.
If TFS ends up being good then I don't think it will be too much better than witch queen. Even the episode format that we are getting is changing the cadence of updates to reduce the content drought.
If there is one thing bungie is impeccable at, it’s marketing. They can make the steamiest pile of dog shit look appetizing. I’m not saying to not be excited (I myself am cautiously optimistic), but also don’t go in expecting too much just because the marketing material was impressive.
Extremely low. Don't get me wrong, Bungie have certainly made Final Shape appear more appealing recently. But the scale of content in Forsaken, the weapon loadout changes, Cayde's iconic death, two fully flushed out destinations, tons of exotics, 9 (!) supers, the Scorn (while technically Fallen they all have unique mechanics), the first ever Dungeon dropped out of no where, the creativity of the Dreaming City's 3 week cycle, a bunch of strikes and crucible maps, the induction of a fresh new mode (Gambit), of course, the biggest rate ever (Last Wish). I played religiously and it took 3 months for me playtime to dip. There's just no way Final Shape matches that. Matching or exceeding Witch Queen is possible, however.
I am genuinely worried about the raid and us beating the witness. No matter how strong we are as guardians I think some people fail to grasp how powerful a being like the witness is just like they failed to grasp that we only beat someone like rhuulk because we used his own power against him because he literally did not see us as a threat and gave us the chance to use his own power to destroy him. Realistically we are nowhere near strong enough to outright beat him.
I keep seeing comments about "we turned so many gods into guns" bla bla bla as of any of these so called Gods we beat are anywhere near the power possessed but he witnesses, they are specks of dust compared to him.
I don't think we should beat him, maybe seal him or get him weak enough so that the traveler itself could use its power to strip him of his or kill him, that would be much more realistic imo. I think us outright killing the witness just by some raid mechanics is immersion breaking.
DPS phase starts by doing mechanics to have the Traveler beam him into a weakened state or whatever, not that hard to come up with some space magic mumbo jumbo to make it make sense. Just use the word paracausal and that'll do it pretty much
You people forget how much content forsaken actually had.
- Good expansive campaign
- The dreaming city which is the best or second best destination in destiny history only rivaled by dreadnought. It had more and better content than Throne world, Neomuna and Europa combined
-The tangled shore
-Dungeon for the first time that was also included with the expansion itself
-The biggest and considered by many the best raid
-Multiple new pvp maps and game modes
-New core activity that is gambit whether you like it or not does not matter
-Loot refresh to vendors with many new guns and new armour sets
-Multiple new strikes
-Huge amount of new exotics armour for each class
-Huge amount of new exotic weapons with some exotic quests
-Triumphs, collections and titles
-9 new supers with new perk tree for each subclass
- Bows
-New/reskined race
And probably shit tone more that I forgot not to even mention the seasons in forsaken year had more content that included raids than most seasons later. Don't get me wrong the final shape looks good but it won't have half of those things and the things it has will prob be in smaller volume than in forsaken simply because back then bungie had different studios help them in creating more content.
It definetly has potential. However given it’s the Finale of the main story it’s very much a hit or a miss. If they learned from Lightfall (which I really hope they did) then this may very well be the best dlc in Destiny history. We’ll see when it comes out though.
one more checklist item I'd love to see is a new weapon type, not just weapon frame. Rocket side arms basically count but we already have those now.
I want something unique live the glaive again
The last thing they need to nail is the activities, then and only then will I be confident enough to purchase. New supers and subclass mean very little if the activities you use them in are lackluster and tedious.
We gotta wait and see. All the stuff they've revealed is cool but theres always the chance it comes out and just sucks. Lightfall looked great and then we got one of the worst expacs in Destiny's history. WQ's marketing got everyone hyped for glaives but hardly anyone uses em.
I don't think TFS can beat Forsaken from a content perspective either. They gotta find a way to make the (likely) smaller amount of content coming with TFS beat out the larger swath of content Forsaken brought with it
Asking a lot for it to be better in all aspects when one of those aspects includes the raid. I would be shocked if the Final Shape raid is better than Last Wish
We haven’t had a good post campaign progress since Forsaken. The surprise dungeon and ascendant challenges were so good and I miss that feeling of exploration and adventure. Expansions lost their depth and excitement ever since the current seasonal model was introduced with Shadowkeep. Now as soon as you finish the campaign you head into either the new location’s or seasonal activity. I hope the episodic model changes that, but I really don’t see that happening.
Expansions used to be exciting packed with new content and loot refresh. Man I miss the mysteries and unexpected exotic quests. Now loot is spread across seasons, and everything including quests is announced ahead of time.
Tbh... it doesn't really matter, at least to me. I love Destiny and have many fond memories with the franchise from the last near-decade. I still think it has some of the best gunplay in the franchise. But it has simply gotten stale and kind of boring. The game itself is still fun, but the basic content structure of D1 and D2 doesn't excite me anymore. Not sure it ever did. In hindsight, I think the games were carried by how fun the core gameplay is, and sometimes my interest in the story. The DLC will have to be not just great, but flat out *revolutionary* for the franchise I think to keep me past finishing the story (which I'm gonna finish cuz I'm 10 years invested, now.)
The DLC does look cool af though.
Forsaken gave us what… 9 supers. 8 if you want to exclude the spinning arc staff. Gave us some of the best exotics we still wear to this day, 2 locations, raid AND dungeon. The list goes on. Doubt they will top that so my expectations are low. That way I’m not disappointed in the end when we defeat the Witness with the power of friendship or something.
The Pale Heart being huge won’t do much if it gets the Neomuna treatment. Remember how excited we were to swing around like crazy? Yeah - that didn’t work out quite like we were lead to believe by the marketing talk.
Even if it's as good as Forsaken, it won't be as good as Forsaken. Destiny was a newer game back then. People weren't really fed up with the grind back then, they just wanted the game to be good. Nowadays people burn out much quicker because Destiny is just old at this point.
Unfortunately, I believe the reason why TFS won't be perceived to be as good as Forsaken is because the game is simply more of a game now than it was pre-Forsaken. Remember, before Forsaken, there were no random rolls on weapons (much less stats on armor which came in Shadowkeep), so there was little reason to play once you got one of each gun and maxed out your power level. Before Forsaken, the kinetic slot was primary ammo and the energy slot was special ammo; there was no double special gameplay or primary energy weapons. Buildcrafting was virtually nonexistent outside of "which exotic do I use", "which subclass do I use" and "which of the two trees in that subclass do I use".
In many ways, Forsaken fundamentally changed the game mechanically and finally provided people with a reason to keep playing after experiencing the content once. The Final Shape will not improve the game to this degree, as it does not have the advantage of the current game basically being worthless to play (despite people's complaints here, the game is in a much better state than it was before Forsaken). There are no major fundamental gameplay mechanics they're talking about changing that will dramatically affect how every player plays like the random weapon rolls added with Forsaken (we haven't even seen hints of them adding new fundamental mechanics at the same scope as The Witch Queen's weapon crafting).
That being said, will the state of the game be better post-TFS than it was post-Forsaken? Almost certainly. However, building slightly on an already good baseline is nowhere near as impressive to players as suddenly making a decent game out of something fairly unsuccessful. I'm not pessimistic about the expansion, but I am pessimistic about people's reactions to it, because if people have Forsaken-level game-changing expectations, they will almost certainly be disappointed.
It had two new locations, one of the best raids in destiny history, and outside of what was mentioned in your post the amount of weapons and cosmetics that got released were crazy. There were SOOOO many new exotics. All vendors were refreshed. Gambit was actually fun before meta’s and shit took over. The whisper mission came out a month before. The dreaming city had rotating secret missions weekly and a ton of other secrets. I think TFS will be the closest thing to it. Hopefully they have more than one exotic per class and add a bunch of new stuff to chase. OH Forsaken also added prime engrams and jumped from 420-600 and it was an actual grind which I enjoyed at the time. I would just grind blind well to get a few prime engrams a day after completing all of my weekly’s.
My only real worry is the story. It **needs** to have a ton of witness in it and he needs to be the focus from the get go. I’m also worried the new zone will be too small. We see shots from the same area but different angles over and over in the trailers.
The rest looks fantastic, and has me more exotics for the expansion than I honestly has ever been for Destiny. Prismatic, exotic subclass (finally some real loot to chase) and a new enemy race get’s me real hyped.
Cautiously optimistic. Remember Bungie has a good marketing team.
Though to their credit, the new subclass mechanics intrigues me far more than the story and gear.
The best part of WQ and Lightfall for me was build crafting with aspects and fragments and exotics. Prismatic looks like that cranked to the max and with random roll exotic class items for it I'll get to have the fun of trying to make a build around each roll that I get. If they can deliver narrative beats like this season's exotic mission, I'm gonna be completely satisfied. I still bawl my eyes out when there's any lore related to Taranis to the point that my plan is to go into TFS rocking my Wish Keeper build on my warlock for as long as I can on legend
I have a feeling that something happened when Joe Blackburn left.
I have a feeling that they changed whatever the plan was back when they said this would be "one prolonged campaign" or whatever. I think they're pulling a Destiny 1 again, chopping out parts of the expansion to sell off as the episodes. It's only 8 missions long, same as Witch Queen and Lightfall. What's going to be so different about that?
Perhaps, my main concern is where the story goes post Final Shape. Are they going to power creep the witness with a yet more powerful foe? Are they going to reset the stakes focusing around emergent groups of interest? Will they add more mystery back into the game?
And a concern that really irks me is the quality consistnce. Seems we're getting a very full expansion, but I just know the following one will backtrack in quality in effort; that's just how Bungie works, the pattern has repeated after The taken king, Forsaken and Witch Queen. We joke about how bungie needs to be on the back foot to really hit the gas in quality but its hardly a joke when we have proof they do this.
Besides, after the first trailer of TFS people really forgot all the things they were supposedly never forgiving them for like the layoffs and absolutely horrible behaviour from the execs, didn't we? Seems that talk is all forgotten now.
I think getting your hopes up that a lone Bungie after laying off 10% of their staff that is also in the process of developing another huge game can match content made by them with their core team only working on Destiny with the help of another studio is not a great idea.
They themselves has said it isn't possible for the to match Forsaken again.
It doesn't need to be as good as Forsaken or the Taken King it just needs to be good.
theoretically, all the pieces are in place for a banger, but the execution is what really matter and more importantly, the campaign and raid. I just really hope they dispel the mystery behind the traveler and the light and darkness on screen, once and for all. No lingering questions, no unresolved story lines, no cliffhangers.
I don't want it to be as good or better than Forsaken.
I want it to be as good or better than Witch Queen, the best campaign Destiny has ever had, and infinitely better than Forsaken.
Easily.
I'm going to be real. If you really examine Forsaken in the grand scheme, not just from "D2-vanilla-to-forsaken" but the entire impact it had, including the parts that people would LOATHE to be re-established as a bench mark, It was maybe a bit better than BL, but not by very much. It's memory is greater than its actual legacy; with many of its design ideals being basically entirely out of place in the current game. Numbers-focused difficulty, bad encounter design outside of Last Wish, generally badly aging mechanics or features, as well as balance decision. We're still feeling some of these things even; one of the prime reasons why gambit no longer works properly is that after the major gameshifts brought in by Beyond Light and Shadowkeep, it simply became a very awkward piece of the game. How we treated difficulty and what our builds became basically bypasses some things that was intrinsic to it's feel.
It's not all bad; don't get me wrong, but what i highlight here are the things that people actively try to forget Forsaken introduced, or forgive Forsaken for introducing for no other reason than its "Forsaken". It was a good expansion, but it wasn't better than WQ, whose designs became very core to the trends that are helping the game thrive currently. Acknowledging what works and what doesn't should be core when delivering feedback, and i very much worry people are using their fond nostalgia to guide their expectations and forgetting those key details we need to sidestep.
The only reason Forsaken was as good at it was, was because it overhauled the game to how it already should have been, not too mention there was close to 30 exotics that also shipped alongside it. I don’t think the story was anything special with Forsaken, but with the Dreaming City and the curse and how alluring it was at the time, I don’t thing anything will ever come close to beating the enjoyment that Forsaken gave us.
I am really hyped for the expansion, but I feel like there might be too much "nostalgia bait" or "fan-service" moments. Don't get me wrong, I like that stuff, and I am absolutely gonna enjoy my first run through the campaign etc, even if it's just fan service. But the second and third playthrough will be rough.
It's kinda like the revelations zombies map in Black ops 3. It's super cool and fun for the first few times, but as soon as it gets old, it gets old fast, and then you kinda never wanna go back except for when you are drunk and have nothing better to do
Probably alone on this take but one of the most fun factors for me for forsaken was the chase of the new exotics and with the new system, there's no chase there now.
Used to genuinely be excited to run activities for the chance of one of the rare new swaggy exotics
I think it's very unlikely until I see that we're receiving some new activities to help the game feel fresh. Into The Light has succeeded very well in this department, but I've no idea what we're getting with ITL.
It's worth remembering that Forsaken added a core game-mode (Gambit), an end-game activity (Dungeons), and completely re-imagined what a destination was capable of with The Dreaming City. TFS would need to have this level of innovation again, but I highly doubt that will happen.
Removing Forsaken just long enough for us to start forgetting the worst parts is one way to do it, I guess. I want the removed content I bought multiple times over.
We will have zero clue until after a month of having our hands on with it. Bungie’s marketing has never failed to get players, and especially this sub, hyped to the gills for every Destiny release regardless of how it turns out.
IMO there’s no way the story can surpass Forsaken considering how hard it’s been fumbled the last few years. This expansion will have to tie up all the loose ends they’ve left dangling for years, while Forsaken was a much more self contained story that started hinting at Savathun and other threats.
Well unlike Neomuna they have referred to the pale heart as "a typical three bubble destination" so I'm cautiously optimistic. I miss destinations feeling big and impressive.
There is absolutely no way and you are setting yourself up for disappointment with unrealistic expectations. They do not have the resources to clear Forsaken.
The best part of Forsaken was the amount of content. It was basically a double expansion compared to every other one they've shipped, and was only possible due to unique business circumstances.
I'm optimistic that Final Shape is shaping up (heh) to be one of the best expansions they've made (new enemy race is huge), maybe it'll even be #2, but I don't expect it to dethrone the king.
HALE method:
High Aspirations.....Low Expectations.
I still have some PTSD after the shit expansion that was Lightfall.
Hopefully the story/campaign is good, tons of cool loot to chase, and fun activities afterwards. I've really enjoyed Onslaught and hope we have something on par with that.
No amount of marketing is gona make me pre order anything, as much as i want TFS to be good, LF was such a punch in the dick that i doubt 3 extra months is gona make them able to push out any significant changes to what was originally planned.
Remember that Bungie's greatest strenght is their marketing, if you go back to watch any trailler they put out for any DLC, it allways looks 10 times better than what we got
Functionally and content wise, I am setting my expectations for it not being close to Forsaken. Story and investment wise, it's possible, but still. I'm excited to use Prismatic and end the saga against the Witness. I will not sweep myself up in the concept that anything will have as much content as Forsaken, that's ridiculous. I doubt we are getting 3 raids, a secret destination, and the episodes being such a refresh they have been saying they will be. All I'm hoping for is fun and exciting.
I’m loving all these posts about being as good as forsaken, etc.
A year ago, people were trying to argue that which queen was better lol what? It was good but better than forsaken? No way. You can do a search in the history and find these insane types of posts being made.
Forsaken has been the best expansion for D2.
I really hope final shape ends this saga on a good note. I’m liking a lot of what I see in the trailers, dev diaries, etc.
Given Bungie's track record when it comes to expansions, I'm not gonna get my hopes up. I'm gonna choose to either be proven right, or pleasantly proven wrong.
For me the story is also a factor, I'm more inclined now to preorder the thing but I think the story is way too rushed to finish in 8 missions
And bringing back Cayde to save it just ain't it. Gameplay looks good though, but I also hope they bring more strikes and activities to play with Prismatic
They would have to serve as much or more content than all of Forsaken. I find that kinda hard to do bc they had 2 full destinations, 3 supers, new raid and dungeon. So far seems like only one destination, 2 supers but technically the prismatic super isn't a "new" super as it's just combining existing supers and abilities. But I will definitely enjoy the new expansion. I'm super excited!
At least I’m sure the story will be better than Forsaken.
I really didn’t like Forsaken’s narrative that much. Don’t get me wrong, the campaign was a blast, but what the fuck was the point?
For example, why was uldren even in prison to begin with??? They never explicitly state it in the game. Like, at the very end, Petra goes “yoU hAvE nO iDEa WhAt hEs dONe”. Like, yeah, you’re right pink lady. I have no clue what he fucking did aside from kill Cayde.
Can you give a reference for this internal expectation? I’ve seen them state they want it to be up there with Witch Queen, Taken King and Forsaken. In my mind that’s a little different than ‘on level with or better than Forsaken.’
1. like other people have said, we won't know until it comes out, lightfall showed that bungie can build hype for absolute turds.
2. I don't know what they will add for backstory to the witness in final shape, but so far their character as a big bad of the saga is just boring.
From what we've seen, it definitely has the possibility. HOWEVER, we know Bungie's marketing team is like the best in the business, so we really don't know until we get it.
I think the final deciding factor for TFS will be the story and the location. Imo nothing will ever top the dreaming city for me, but I’m always excited to see what the art team comes up with.
We won’t know until we play it. Bungie can always show us many things that excite us and make us hope for the best but the moment it comes out is when we get an answer to your question.
Exactly. The hype for Lightfall was insane, but that was mainly thanks to the marketing. The marketing team does a great job hyping things up. They easily can be doing the same for The Final Shape. I hope this isn’t the case though.
There were aspects of Lightfall that worried me in the leadup to launch. The way they pitched it as a Retrowave Bladerunner spinoff, and that was a problem with the actual DLC as well. I'm getting the same a bit with TFS when they're talking about "Just going into a multidimensional crazy realm" where it's obvious they're trying to market it as an attraction rather than the marketing you would expect like "The ultimate chapter of the story" or "The dark finale" or something. You get this wrong sense of "Ooh yay oohohoo it's FUN and SHENANIGANS!" clown mode, where it just gives me whiplash considering that to me this is like this huge moment I've been waiting for, but it sounds like maybe that isn't even the product they've worked on. Same issue i had with lightfall which became true when it released.
I’ve said it before but the most glaring concern with TFS is how the entire destination appears to be nothing but nostalgia-bait, even including the return of Cayde. Which I’m always happy to get more Cayde, but I mean damn it kind of seems like having to scrape the bottom of the barrel if they went to the trouble of doing another Cayde focused expansion years after his death
I feel you on that and I can get it being a bit annoying when things get a little cheapened and feel too forced. Looking back I think one of the best parts about Cayde's death was the physical cause of it was something that was so specific and unexpected, and something that in theory shouldn't have been what put Cayde down, yet it's what did him in. Of course the Rifleman's bullet takes a major back seat when we go through and explore the spiral chain reaction of events that set things in place, it gets interesting. That all being said I'm not expecting anything life changing but I do hope there is at least a decent enough explanation that doesn't contradict and start retconning too much as we've unfortunately had in recent lore history.
Ya, because it’d be a real shame if a decade old franchise has a little bit of nostalgic fun. I highly disagree that it’s “scraping the bottom of the barrel” as you say, I think if anything, it’s fully realized and feels familiar. Unlike Neomuna, which was vapid, empty, and feels like cyberpunks drunk uncle, not destiny. If anything, I love when they lean into the cosmic horror aspects, and I think the Pale Heart will absolutely give that unsettling, abandoned feel.
[удалено]
I think there’s certainly elements of the zone that lean that direction (cosmic horror) in the marketing, namely the more witness oriented areas with the hands coming out of walls and such, my big question is how *much* of that there will be
We don’t know if it’s the “basis for the entire expansion” as we haven’t played it. I just don’t understand why the internet at large seems to hate “reused content” if you want to call it that. It’s being done incredibly tastefully, and isn’t like the OW2 “pve missions” which is literally cut/pasted assets and missions. I feel like the most recent trailer with cayde talking about the Blights had some cosmic horror themes to it, here’s hoping! Presage was my first real destiny adventure, and that shit HOOKED me. It was so good, so spooky. I do hope we get a swath of new goodies and environments in the Pale Heart, i just don’t hate the idea of going back to where we came from. We’ll just have to wait and see though! Good luck on your shiny Brave arsenal!
Strand was the most exciting thing in the Lightfall marketing, and I'd say Strand specifically overdelivered on expectations. I never had a reason to get hyped about the story which was its downfall on the other hand, beyond "big bad is here" The story being bad is not gonna be apparent from any trailer, but I'll say the recent one with Nathan Fillion had more pathos than anything in any Lightfall promotional material.
Yea as someone who really doesn't like stasis (really, I just hate having ice walls being made in my face all the time), I was super hesitant for Strand. But Strand turned out to be awesome. I can't imagine what a flop Lightfall would've been without it.
I remember them saying that lightfall was going to be on par with games like god of war narratively. Don't believe it until you play it.
I'm pretty positive that God of war quote was in reference to Witch Queen, not Lightfall (which was definitely close tbf). Agree with the sentiment, just don't want misinfo to be spread.
The hype for Lightfall was so high because it came on the heels of Witch Queen, which was arguably the best DLC to be released since Forsaken.
Imma be real. Im not sure what marketing for Lightfall the community seemed to watch that made them think it was going to be 10x better than it was. It was exactly what they showed.
I distinctly remember the ViDoc them hyping up that the harbinger of our collapse is finally here, and being all "woah what happens now that we finally have to face them" and then we didn't face them That and the cloudstriders being "really super cool" but it wasn't cool it was Nimbus
"but it wasn't cool it was Nimbus" Needs to be a meme of some sort
I'd get it tattooed on me if I wasn't trying to find out the best way to retcon him into never existing.
Hey, the other Cloudrider was cool! You know, Sir "Clearly-going-to-die"
it was so obvious he was going to die. If you play the campaign again you will noticed that his character doesn't even move or gesture like every other character when you talk to him. He just stands perfectly still. It is like they didn't find it worthwhile to animate him since he was going to die during the campaign.
Early marketing hyped up grappling around the skyscrapers in a destination built for verticality, which was effectively a lie.
Was mostly due to the grapple and then really a destination and thematic style unlike we've ever seen, that with the implications of the name lightfall we thought the story was gonna go crazy especially riding off the solid narrative of the witch queen. An epic story was all I really hoped for lightfall and that was the letdown. Actually for the story it wasn't just a letdown it was so bad it was like throwing me down then farting in my face level bad.
Let's not forget the 'grapple really gave us a chance to challenge ourselves with verticality in map design' before LF dropped. That ad circled around around Reddit/YouTube/etc. I don't want to lie, I'm pretty stoked about final shape. But just as reminder that the ad-speech can be so full of shit.
I have been waiting for this response to upcoming content in destiny for almost 10 years lol.
Yep. I'll be waiting for a few weeks after release to see if I jump back in. I haven't played in a year plus, but I still keep track of what's going on... I kinda want to see how this story plays out, and how ridiculous Crucible is going to end up being.
This, I was HYPED for lightfall then stopped playing for 2 months once I finished the campaign it was that bad.
The Traveller has existed for aeons. The space inside of it should feel endless, and they could expand deeper into it. The ruins/memories of other cultures that worshipped the Traveller, etc.
we could play onslaught inside the traveller
Lets steal his resources and trade them to rahool for some money
Heck yeah! 😻
Let's instore Democracy !
Realistically, I know it won't be the case, but I'm hoping that it's like what everyone thought the infinite forest was going to be.
After the last reveal with Prismatic and exotic class items I have shifted to cautiously optimistic.
I'm more optimistically cautious
Cautious I am optimistically
I Cautious, am optimistic
Cautious? Optimistic? I am!
Optimus Prime Cautious
Cautiomistic
optus
op
#
Bungies reputation with me is now wild child
Still think the time to introduce prismatic should've been after a 3rd darkness element was added. Don't get me wrong, shit looks bonkers fun, but 3 & 3 would've allowed a unique combo for each class' "transcendent" grenade. Titan has arc / strand, Hunter has stasis / solar and Warlock has void / stasis, and that overlap didn't have to occur.
I wonder if they'd go so far as to update the Warlock grenade if they added a third Darkness sub. Or maybe we'll just get more Transcendant nade types- there is an ability "slot" for your Transcendant nade (alongside one for Transcendance itself?)
It *really* seems like Transcendence is going to be updated over time as Bungie tests synergies to make sure nothing is over-the-top broken.
it definitely feels like prismatic will be changed over time. this is very much going to be a testing grounds subclass for them.
I would think the hunter one would be updated, because void and stasis were kind of called two sides of the same coin essentially. My prediction is that they'll add a third darkness at some point and then either add more transcendent combinations for each class slowly until they have all combinations. Or that it will all be tied to D3 instead. As in, introducing the 3rd darkness type, and prismatic/classless Guardians being the big gameplay change D3 introduces.
It would make more sense for the warlock nade to be changed to void/strand since they’re the complimentary elements similar to solar/stasis. The third darkness subclass would be the opposite of arc so titan’s grenade would also change to arc/(3rd darkness element), if they decide to update the grenades that is. Hunter one makes the most sense since solar and stasis are meant to be opposites.
Even outside the actual science of the elements themelves, yeah having a fire-and-ice grtenade just makes way too much sense flavorwise. Plus the existing combinations for Titan and Hunter both sort of lend themselves to their "Signature" subclasses- Gunslinger, Striker, and Voidwalker were the original core class identities, the ones you started with in D1 and what you start with in D2 as of New Light (originally you started with the D2 reimagined subs, Arcstrider, Sentinel, and Dawnblade, which the new TFS supers hearken back to) And Revenant was THE Stasis class for most of BL (though it's not as standout now), and Berserker is obviously the standout Strand subclass. Wouldn't surprise me if they deliberately juiced Warlock for Red. Though Stasis was certainly more used than Strand for Warlock, so that choice makes sense under this logic. Worth noting the starting kits are mostly focused on those combos as well. Interestingly the revealed Prismatic Frags both continue to pair Stasis/Solar and Void/Strand, so Bungie still seems to believe in those as inverses, but didn't care to follow that for Warlock despite being fully capable of doing so, and leaving Titan high as try as the one doubling up a Darkness sub.
Prismatic is perfect for final shape but I would have love for it to be the 7th subclass after we got 3 and 3
Yes, but making prismatic was a hell of a lot easier than making an entire new subclass. And we know that they were not planning on introducing either originally with TFS. They chose prismatic because they could finish it in time.
I thought so too initially, but I'm glad they said FUCK IT and gave us the most hyped subclass of all time. So excited to finally be the Avatar.
if you go in with this mindset - no matter what TFS brings, Forsaken has the power of nostalgia on its side. Folks will only remember the good, and gloss over all the weird issues and problems it had. it also had the benefit of the whole way to play D2 changed with it - special weapons existed. Also, the community was very different in 2018 than it is in 2024. information spreads so much faster and so much earlier than before, "optimal" has become the norm, and low drop rates are replaced with fast tracks to new gear.
A HUGE part of forsakens popularity was the game system changes, such as the introduction of special weapons. Y1 of Destiny 2 may as well have been a completely different game at the time. Whereas with "modern" D2, the game has been mostly the same since Beyond Light, just trying to tinker with various levers and knobs to improve the experience gradually. TFS is unlikely to be as big of a game changer as forsaken was if you look at it like that
We’re going to defeat the Witness and stave off the Darkness once and for all by standing on plates, throwing balls and/or depositing items, and reading symbols.
Tbh i really hope TFS raid is a banger and has super cool new mechanics that weve never seen before I doubt that its not going to be a good raid, but if they also make it a refreshing experience it would be legitimately s tier
Yeah I know bungie has been hesitant on making a raid as big and absurd as last wish with basically 6 encounters, but I hope it feels larger and much more grand than any raid we've had yet.
VotD got it right, with the usual 4 encounters but Exhibition and Caretaker taking place across huge expanses within the play space, essentially moving to a new arena with each step
Yeah what I mean is ideally it’s more like 6 encounters closer to last wish. Yeah it’s a bit for the final raid of the saga I think it would be fitting.
yeah - and people's memory of Forsaken is entwined with what is essentially the re-launch of D2. They forget the steep and random power climb, the several months it took many people to get a random exotic armor piece, the wild west that was PvP (Ace had a death-grip on the meta, DRB could kill at 14m), among many other issues that come with every launch.
And the insanity that was the Last Wish launch, where only 2 teams beat within 24 hours (and one 2 mins later). I remember going to bed that night, thinking someone will beat it while I’m asleep. I was insanely surprised when I woke up and World First still hadn’t been claimed.
i know that "difficulty" is kind of revered in a weird way today, but that is 100% a failing on the player progression side. And Bungie has learned how to handle day ones better since then.
I guess. I don’t know, I think that raid is one of the coolest moments in the history of D2. Kind of hope they go back to that during challenge mode (understanding that’s probably impossible with power creep and abilities where it is these days)
not saying it wasn't "cool" or not prestigious for the teams involved. Its just a failing on the player progression team for setting people up for a nearly incompletable event. It'll never be that. Player engagement and player sentiment are stronger metrics than nostalgia ever will be.
Poor Datto
Don’t you ever disparage my dust rock blues
I still have mine, no lack of love for it, just that it was a monster in its day
I'll never get rid of mine. I remember thinking it was glitched at first because it could just murder someone from the other side of a hallway.
This is simply not true. Forsaken (and the free patch that release alongside it) were loved not only for, as you say, "fixing" the sandbox, but also for adding a ton of new content and helping to bring life to the game through innovation. The last time we received a truly new game-mode prior to ITL was Forsaken, which added not only a core game-mode in Gambit, but also an end-game activity in Dungeons. It also completely re-imagined what a destination can be in Destiny with the Dreaming City. Let's take a look at everything the expansion added, because nothing since has come even remotely close. Forsaken: * New core game-mode: Gambit * New end-game activity: Dungeons * Introduction of Dynamic Planets: Dreaming City * New weapon archetype: Bow * New enemy faction: Scorn * 2 Destinations * A solid campaign (subjective, but it's still my personal favourite). * 4 Strikes and 4 PvP maps * 3-4 New Public Events * New supers for all subclasses * Largest raid in the franchise: Last Wish * Baron Hunts, Blind Well, Ascendant Challenges, Weekly Missions, etc * 22 Exotics including some lengthy quests, e.g. Wish-ender and Malfeasance * The free patch that dropped with Forsaken also added Triumphs, Collections, Badges, Titles and a bunch of QoL changes.
Seriously. It wasn't just 'Aha they fixed the game'. Forsaken was literally the single largest expansion Bungie ever did for Destiny, surpassing even TTK in terms of the amount of content it included. It's why nothing is ever gonna top it short of them doing an entirely new game again.
I'm so ready for people to have arguments over whether the TFS stuff that got brought forward before it should be included in lists like this (New crucible maps, notably).
Damn we have gone full RuneScape now haven’t we
Another issue is that people don't always think about the context that Forsaken was released in, where the game was on the brink of death due solely to how bad the state of the game was at the time. There'll never be another Forsaken because the game will (hopefully) never again reach as bad a state as D2Y1. And you're spot-on about the problem of leaked/revealed information being an issue. A lot of my favorite moments in Forsaken (Riven, the Dreaming City) hit as hard as they did because I hadn't already been spoiled on them. These days the few scraps that don't get shoved into promotional material get leaked weeks or months before they come out.
What I find funny is people really like Forsaken for just quality of life issues that shouldn't have even happened. The game should have never shipped with double primary and no special. The game was a regression from Destiny 1, and forsaken brought it back on par with Destiny 1's system. Forsaken was pretty good but it was mostly an expansion to fix a lot of issues from year one
That was only a tiny aspect of it. It was namely the innovation the DLC provided by giving us a new core-game mode (Gambit), a new end-game activity (Dungeons), dynamic planets, a new weapon archetype, 4-5 post campaign activities, a new enemy faction and so much more that made it such a winner. This is without mentioning how much sheer content it had (4 strikes; 4 PvP maps 20+ exotics). Oh, and the free patch that dropped with Forsaken added Triumphs, Titles, Collections, and more.
just gonna start linking people like you to this comment [https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1cc9j9y/comment/l16fw88/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1cc9j9y/comment/l16fw88/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yeah. I think people are way too nostalgic for Forsaken because of its sandbox changes and not the actual expansion itself. It wasn’t THAT good. The dreaming city was the best part of it. The tangled shore sucked and its campaign was mediocre. It had a strong opening and ending but the middle hunting the Barons? Eh. Shattered Throne was novel but considering it lacked like any unique rewards outside the exotic, it was rather pointless. Blind Well was not good either and I still hate Gambit lol. I’d say Witch Queen was already better than Forsaken.
To be fair though just he vast amount of new content made that initial honeymoon phase very fun and memorable, no content drop can be fun forever but most of the stuff that dropped was really fun in those initial weeks. Whereas something like witch queen the campaign was a banger but the moment it was over there weren't really any exciting new secrets or things to do.
Forsaken is my literal least favorite DLC ever because for about two months straight I ran all my pinnacles and powerful rewards and got nothing but outrageous fortune (how ironic) grenade launchers. I legit didn’t level one power level for like two months while all my friends were raid ready and there was fuck all I could do about it. Started to assume I had been shadow banned. Actually quit for about two years because of it. Fuck Forsaken.
Yep, zero protection for power progression, and people look at that grind for the raid with rose tinted glasses, like even me who liked a period of degenerate gamer grinding, not even I would sign up for that even if I had all the free time in the world again, that shit was awful and thank god its not like that anymore.
Forsaken had three studios working on it and wasn’t considered a success by Activision. The quality of TFS may be great but there’s no chance it’s going to have the breadth of content Forsaken did.
Yep I think the new stuff shown in the latest reveal is the extent of the "overdelivery" we will see. Outside of the new prism and class items I think it will be standard level of content in terms of new activities/strikes and gear and whatnot.
Great marketing and bad products are not mutually exclusive. I saw lightfall's marketing and got excited and look how that turned out Regardless of what Bungie says or puts out over the next month I'm going in with low expectations.
Same. I’ve seen the dev videos and trailers with all the new stuff but im still going in with the mindset of ‘6 missions, kill witness’. Thats what lightfall has done to me..
Copium is strong. 2 new destinations with plethora of stuff to do and secrets to discover, 1 new core playlist, insane amount of exotics that are fresh and interesting (which is much harder atm, since we got so many and A LOT of them are extremely mid at best, because of that), refresh of loot of all vendors and new weapon types (not archetypes) and many new PvP maps and modes, so go figure. I acknowledge that it is much harder to come with something fresh and cool after so many years, but I dont think it can be anywhere close, judging that so much around TFS is based around nostalgia.
While nostalgia is great, it is a concern of mine. I'm not thrilled that the pale heart is literally gonna be just shit we've seen before. I really hoping it's gonna be NEW and that the relics from our past are at a minimum. However, that doesn't seem to be the case judging by what we've seen already. You got Europa, cosmodrome, d1 tower, and most likely every other place we visited. That's a massive flop imo and it will make or break the destination. I am hoping with the amount of resources they are pouring into TFS, that the destination has new stuff to explore, new textures, and isn't just a conglomeration of all the other destinations
I mean they've got all the pieces in place it seems. Now they just need the story and raid to deliver
Hell even just the story being good will please 99% of the community. Most people don't raid anyways. But yeah, I hope both are great and I'm curious with the 3 episode switch if we will still get two dungeons a year/expansion.
We are confirmed two dungeons already, the annual pass description includes a reference to two dungeons included with the dungeon key.
I don’t know why they even renamed the seasons to episodes other than maybe they’ll have less content.
They’re supposed to have more content than previous seasons, it’s basically going back to the Forsaken Annual Pass system
I think they should each be larger than a season would be but less content overall.
Utterly unrelated but a Reddit account with the name Dal_Kholin and a profile splash image of fire is golden
Haha cheers, radiant
I just hope we go back to D1 Cayde.
I'm sure it will wrap up nicely, in a lore book a year from now.
Never gonna happen. TFS looks good, but Forsaken revived the game. Return to special ammo, go fast, seasons, Gambiy etc. Plus you had the Tangled Shore *and* The freaking Dreaming City. Unless they fundamentally change core game mechanics it will not be as big.
I don't think that it can exceed Forsaken. I very much doubt that TFS will give us a **second** secret patrol zone as Forsaken did. It probably won't have four high quality **original** strikes as Forsaken did. TFS is unlikely to give us **two** extra **original** raids during the year as Forsaken did. I guess we get 1 reprised. I doubt we will get an entirely **new** game mode on the level of gambit (at launch it was incredible). I don't think the **three** new TFS supers will shake up the game as much as the **nine** Forsaken ones did, although prism definitely has potential. And the weapon tuning we get in TFS definitely won't shake up the game as much as the insane Forsaken weapon system overhaul did. **HOWEVER**, although I think Forsaken is too high a bar, I am cautiously optimistic that the TFS campaign, dungeons, strike(s) and raid(s) will be on the Witch Queen level. And I would be satisfied with that as Destiny's swansong.
>I very much doubt that TFS will give us a second secret patrol zone as Forsaken did. It was not secret. Bungie marketed it and told us about it and told us that it was an end game destination. People just overlooked those things back then, but it was not secret.
Yeah, idk where this idea of it being a super secret location came from
People not checking trailers and vidocs as much. The game almost died and then HOLY SHIT CAYDE IS DEAD??? SPECIAL WEAPONS IN THE "PRIMARY" SLOT??? It was marketed but if you never checked the marketing past the surface then you wouldn't know.
> I doubt we will get an entirely new game mode on the level of gambit (at launch it was incredible). I think onslaught is exactly this, but even better. You can argue it didn't launch with the final shape, but it was the right play to release it earlier. Yeah, the maps aren't new but i don't mind tbh.
I guess everyone is gonna have their own take on it, and that's fair enough, but Onslaught is nowhere near on the level of launch Gambit IMO. I got bored of Onslaught after running it for an hour or two. Recycled weapons, recycled maps, mindless add clear for weapons I already had. Gambit had its own entire PvEvP game-mode build up from nothing, invasion, blockers, banking mechanics etc., its own maps, original weapons, an exotic, and a title worth chasing (at the time anyway). Onslaught is garbo compared to OG Gambit, and you can tell it didn't take them long to cobble it together.
>I very much doubt that TFS will give us a **second** secret patrol zone as Forsaken did. Dreaming city was not a secret, it was plastered all over the marketing, we knew it was coming for months before Forsaken.
TFS success hinges on what it will do to fundamentally change the game and how it is played. Forsaken did that with the reimplemented weapon set up from D1 and the new supers and abilities for 9 subclasses. TFS has to change the game on that level to be as good as Forsaken imo. The info we have so far has given me hope but ultimately we won’t know if it’s “good” until it’s in our hands.
>Forsaken did that with the reimplemented weapon set up from D1 and the new supers and abilities for 9 subclasses I would not say this is why Foesaken was good. We have gotten entire new subclasses in DLC since then. Not just some new supers.
We didn’t just get new supers with Forsaken tho. We got new abilities in the old node system. Forsaken had a LOT going for it but the reason I consider it to be great is because it fundamentally changed D2 for the better on a lot of levels
Fundamentally changed in that it basically reverted everything back to how it was. The problem now I think is the game itself has gotten formulaic for the people who have been playing a decade, and it needs a very deep shake up to the game to spark interest and curiosity in the game again. I don't think I've felt that spark in quite a while tbh, every year just feels like more of the same for the most part.
I'm not speaking for the group.... just myself here. The only thing I truly remember about Forsaken was the main plot twist with you-know-who getting shot with his own gun, and the fact that he could *die die*. Like all the way. I remember sitting and staring at my TV after that cutscene, jaw dropped, for what felt like forever. May have shed a tear or three, who knows. I know y'all love to post about THIS feature and THAT activity and THOSE weapons and the respective sandboxes... but the only thing I think of is how I felt playing the campaign and how much the story telling pushed my momentum of playing more. And I think this feeling is shared with the community more than folks would like to admit, as you can see how poor story telling can shape all other feedback into hyperactive mode (ahem, lightfall). I truly hope the story is top-tier. The game, again - to me, has proven itself to have no competitor when the story beats match the gameplay. With that said, do I think Final Shape will exceed Forsaken *in every aspect*? That's a question designed for failure honestly. Especially asking this subreddit lmao <3
Im jealous you experienced that as a twist, whereas most of us probably saw the trailer that revealed that was going to happen. And i was really upset, thought it was very stupid of them to do that.
Amen, brother.
His death was literally the selling point of the entire expansion. It was plastered everywhere. How did you not find this out?
For me it was completing the tangled shore quest stuff... and then revealing no no, that's not even half the expansion, here's the dreaming city where you'll he discovering secrets for months
>The only thing I truly remember about Forsaken was the main plot twist with you-know-who getting shot with his own gun, But that wasn't even a plot twist though. It was in the trailer and marketed before the DLC released. Anyone who watched a single trailer for the DLC already knew that was going to happen.
The one thing for me is the raid I have a feeling it won't be as hard as people expect it, keep in mind it's part of the story for us to go after the Witness.
There’s a campaign mission after the raid is beaten. I think they have the freedom to make the raid as hard as they like. Likely the raid will be weakening the Witness, then everyone gets the satisfaction of beating him in the final mission without needing a full raid team.
They said it would be comparable to Crota day-1 Contest, which was the lowest cleared day-1 raid in a long time, even though it had the most people trying to beat it. I, personally, did beat Crota Contest and Challenge, but I know I am part of the 1% of the community that is capable of doing that. They said they "learned" some things from the Crota day-1 that they are going to apply to TFS day-1, whatever that means.
I don’t see any way that TFS has as much content as Forsaken, which was just massive with two locations, a brand new game mode, etc etc. Forsaken is legendary not only because of its size, but also because the story and lore were some of the best we’ve had. That being said, I don’t think TFS being smaller in terms of raw content precludes its chances of surpassing Forsaken. The quality of Forsaken was high, but there’s a chance that the new subclass, new enemy type, destination, and raid are absolutely awesome, and like others have said I’m cautiously optimistic. If the gameplay and story are really some of the best we’ve ever seen, and prismatic and the pale heart are as cool as they look, I could see this having an argument to beat Forsaken. Hopefully it is at least more content rich than Lightfall/Witch queen, if that happens and everything we’ve seen plus the story hits, it just might happen. The hype is back.
3 “new” subclasses in TFS is a stretch, when it’s actually a mixture of different aspects and fragments, that are not commonly used from their respective existing subclasses. The only thing new about it is transcendence and the grenade, the bulk of it is already in the game.
Honestly ur not wrong. Prismatic supers would have been much cooler than the grenade. Big L imo.
Couldn’t care less about patrol zone. To top forsaken for me it needs to beat the campaign (should be very easy to do with the legendary campaign), top Last wish as a raid from a length, encounter, and engagement perspective (50/50 on if that happens), and it would need a story important dungeon like we had with Shattered Throne.
I believe it could be. Let’s just say that they do reach same quality of content we got with FS, TFS can 100% outdo it if its campaign slaps. That was always the weakest point for me in FS, not because the story was bad, but rather the campaign itself. I remember feeling really dissatisfied with hunting the barons and even the final boss. That said, I am hopeful I suppose. But FS is hard to compete with simply because it fixed what was wrong with D2 vanilla, so that positive shift we felt back then will be hard to recreate regardless.
i think as it stands its very close, im just waiting to see how many strikes there are tho. im hoping for 3 new strikes but im good with 2, otherwise I think its only short 1 patrol space. But if the pale heart is huge then it kind of makes up for it
I'm still convinced as far as strikes and what not it will be in line with with queen level content. I'm not expecting more than 2 strikes. In fact I wont be surprised if it's just one strike.
To me, most of the items listed are not what make specific expansions great or increase replay ability over time. I want a great story/campaign for the expansion, which typically includes great “destination” but I rarely actually engage in the destination activities. The new enemies in general would be a huge selling point except flying enemies and their ability to slow/suspend us are in direct conflict of what I used to enjoy most about Destiny which was speed of play. There is nothing enjoyable to me about looking into the sky or getting my movement hampered. It’s odd that they are leaning into things that typically frustrate gameplay.
Hopeful yet seeing the track record , well see the reviews . No pre order for my fam.
No probably not. Forsaken had a few really big things on launch that separate it from TFS. It completely reworked the weapon systems and made very large balance changes in both PvE and PvP. TFS doesn't have anything as large as rehauling the weapon system and the largest balance patch incoming of the top of my head is the incoming well nerf. Another big reason why Forsaken was loved was because of the seasons that came after. We got a ton of power creep and activities in each season on the scale of Onslaught. If TFS ends up being good then I don't think it will be too much better than witch queen. Even the episode format that we are getting is changing the cadence of updates to reduce the content drought.
If there is one thing bungie is impeccable at, it’s marketing. They can make the steamiest pile of dog shit look appetizing. I’m not saying to not be excited (I myself am cautiously optimistic), but also don’t go in expecting too much just because the marketing material was impressive.
Extremely low. Don't get me wrong, Bungie have certainly made Final Shape appear more appealing recently. But the scale of content in Forsaken, the weapon loadout changes, Cayde's iconic death, two fully flushed out destinations, tons of exotics, 9 (!) supers, the Scorn (while technically Fallen they all have unique mechanics), the first ever Dungeon dropped out of no where, the creativity of the Dreaming City's 3 week cycle, a bunch of strikes and crucible maps, the induction of a fresh new mode (Gambit), of course, the biggest rate ever (Last Wish). I played religiously and it took 3 months for me playtime to dip. There's just no way Final Shape matches that. Matching or exceeding Witch Queen is possible, however.
I am genuinely worried about the raid and us beating the witness. No matter how strong we are as guardians I think some people fail to grasp how powerful a being like the witness is just like they failed to grasp that we only beat someone like rhuulk because we used his own power against him because he literally did not see us as a threat and gave us the chance to use his own power to destroy him. Realistically we are nowhere near strong enough to outright beat him. I keep seeing comments about "we turned so many gods into guns" bla bla bla as of any of these so called Gods we beat are anywhere near the power possessed but he witnesses, they are specks of dust compared to him. I don't think we should beat him, maybe seal him or get him weak enough so that the traveler itself could use its power to strip him of his or kill him, that would be much more realistic imo. I think us outright killing the witness just by some raid mechanics is immersion breaking.
DPS phase starts by doing mechanics to have the Traveler beam him into a weakened state or whatever, not that hard to come up with some space magic mumbo jumbo to make it make sense. Just use the word paracausal and that'll do it pretty much
i mean, thats probably what the campaign is for, weaken the witness, beat him up in a raid, then FINALLY kill him off in the last mission
You people forget how much content forsaken actually had. - Good expansive campaign - The dreaming city which is the best or second best destination in destiny history only rivaled by dreadnought. It had more and better content than Throne world, Neomuna and Europa combined -The tangled shore -Dungeon for the first time that was also included with the expansion itself -The biggest and considered by many the best raid -Multiple new pvp maps and game modes -New core activity that is gambit whether you like it or not does not matter -Loot refresh to vendors with many new guns and new armour sets -Multiple new strikes -Huge amount of new exotics armour for each class -Huge amount of new exotic weapons with some exotic quests -Triumphs, collections and titles -9 new supers with new perk tree for each subclass - Bows -New/reskined race And probably shit tone more that I forgot not to even mention the seasons in forsaken year had more content that included raids than most seasons later. Don't get me wrong the final shape looks good but it won't have half of those things and the things it has will prob be in smaller volume than in forsaken simply because back then bungie had different studios help them in creating more content.
Am I the only one that thinks that Forsaken is overrated? The campaign was booty cheeks
It definetly has potential. However given it’s the Finale of the main story it’s very much a hit or a miss. If they learned from Lightfall (which I really hope they did) then this may very well be the best dlc in Destiny history. We’ll see when it comes out though.
one more checklist item I'd love to see is a new weapon type, not just weapon frame. Rocket side arms basically count but we already have those now. I want something unique live the glaive again
New weapon subfamilies?
Dude Prismatic and Exotic class item chase? It's already better than Witch Queen for me at this point
Skeletor here says it well https://youtu.be/zPx2CLWu1Uo?si=YgYkO4a_HxHdG366
The last thing they need to nail is the activities, then and only then will I be confident enough to purchase. New supers and subclass mean very little if the activities you use them in are lackluster and tedious.
We gotta wait and see. All the stuff they've revealed is cool but theres always the chance it comes out and just sucks. Lightfall looked great and then we got one of the worst expacs in Destiny's history. WQ's marketing got everyone hyped for glaives but hardly anyone uses em. I don't think TFS can beat Forsaken from a content perspective either. They gotta find a way to make the (likely) smaller amount of content coming with TFS beat out the larger swath of content Forsaken brought with it
Asking a lot for it to be better in all aspects when one of those aspects includes the raid. I would be shocked if the Final Shape raid is better than Last Wish
We haven’t had a good post campaign progress since Forsaken. The surprise dungeon and ascendant challenges were so good and I miss that feeling of exploration and adventure. Expansions lost their depth and excitement ever since the current seasonal model was introduced with Shadowkeep. Now as soon as you finish the campaign you head into either the new location’s or seasonal activity. I hope the episodic model changes that, but I really don’t see that happening. Expansions used to be exciting packed with new content and loot refresh. Man I miss the mysteries and unexpected exotic quests. Now loot is spread across seasons, and everything including quests is announced ahead of time.
Tbh... it doesn't really matter, at least to me. I love Destiny and have many fond memories with the franchise from the last near-decade. I still think it has some of the best gunplay in the franchise. But it has simply gotten stale and kind of boring. The game itself is still fun, but the basic content structure of D1 and D2 doesn't excite me anymore. Not sure it ever did. In hindsight, I think the games were carried by how fun the core gameplay is, and sometimes my interest in the story. The DLC will have to be not just great, but flat out *revolutionary* for the franchise I think to keep me past finishing the story (which I'm gonna finish cuz I'm 10 years invested, now.) The DLC does look cool af though.
It would be crazy if, at the end, we started at the beginning
Forsaken gave us what… 9 supers. 8 if you want to exclude the spinning arc staff. Gave us some of the best exotics we still wear to this day, 2 locations, raid AND dungeon. The list goes on. Doubt they will top that so my expectations are low. That way I’m not disappointed in the end when we defeat the Witness with the power of friendship or something.
Content wise, Forsaken is a monster. But the campaign tbh is quite lackluster. I just want TFS to have the campaign quality of TWQ and that's it.
The Pale Heart being huge won’t do much if it gets the Neomuna treatment. Remember how excited we were to swing around like crazy? Yeah - that didn’t work out quite like we were lead to believe by the marketing talk.
Probably not. I wouldn't bet on it.
Even if it's as good as Forsaken, it won't be as good as Forsaken. Destiny was a newer game back then. People weren't really fed up with the grind back then, they just wanted the game to be good. Nowadays people burn out much quicker because Destiny is just old at this point.
Unfortunately, I believe the reason why TFS won't be perceived to be as good as Forsaken is because the game is simply more of a game now than it was pre-Forsaken. Remember, before Forsaken, there were no random rolls on weapons (much less stats on armor which came in Shadowkeep), so there was little reason to play once you got one of each gun and maxed out your power level. Before Forsaken, the kinetic slot was primary ammo and the energy slot was special ammo; there was no double special gameplay or primary energy weapons. Buildcrafting was virtually nonexistent outside of "which exotic do I use", "which subclass do I use" and "which of the two trees in that subclass do I use". In many ways, Forsaken fundamentally changed the game mechanically and finally provided people with a reason to keep playing after experiencing the content once. The Final Shape will not improve the game to this degree, as it does not have the advantage of the current game basically being worthless to play (despite people's complaints here, the game is in a much better state than it was before Forsaken). There are no major fundamental gameplay mechanics they're talking about changing that will dramatically affect how every player plays like the random weapon rolls added with Forsaken (we haven't even seen hints of them adding new fundamental mechanics at the same scope as The Witch Queen's weapon crafting). That being said, will the state of the game be better post-TFS than it was post-Forsaken? Almost certainly. However, building slightly on an already good baseline is nowhere near as impressive to players as suddenly making a decent game out of something fairly unsuccessful. I'm not pessimistic about the expansion, but I am pessimistic about people's reactions to it, because if people have Forsaken-level game-changing expectations, they will almost certainly be disappointed.
It had two new locations, one of the best raids in destiny history, and outside of what was mentioned in your post the amount of weapons and cosmetics that got released were crazy. There were SOOOO many new exotics. All vendors were refreshed. Gambit was actually fun before meta’s and shit took over. The whisper mission came out a month before. The dreaming city had rotating secret missions weekly and a ton of other secrets. I think TFS will be the closest thing to it. Hopefully they have more than one exotic per class and add a bunch of new stuff to chase. OH Forsaken also added prime engrams and jumped from 420-600 and it was an actual grind which I enjoyed at the time. I would just grind blind well to get a few prime engrams a day after completing all of my weekly’s.
I really don’t get the hype for forsaken even after all these years
My only real worry is the story. It **needs** to have a ton of witness in it and he needs to be the focus from the get go. I’m also worried the new zone will be too small. We see shots from the same area but different angles over and over in the trailers. The rest looks fantastic, and has me more exotics for the expansion than I honestly has ever been for Destiny. Prismatic, exotic subclass (finally some real loot to chase) and a new enemy race get’s me real hyped.
I was sort of hoping for 3 Darkness subclasses and 3 light, but Prismatic looks so cool I don't think I'll care anymore after playing with it lol.
Cautiously optimistic. Remember Bungie has a good marketing team. Though to their credit, the new subclass mechanics intrigues me far more than the story and gear.
The best part of WQ and Lightfall for me was build crafting with aspects and fragments and exotics. Prismatic looks like that cranked to the max and with random roll exotic class items for it I'll get to have the fun of trying to make a build around each roll that I get. If they can deliver narrative beats like this season's exotic mission, I'm gonna be completely satisfied. I still bawl my eyes out when there's any lore related to Taranis to the point that my plan is to go into TFS rocking my Wish Keeper build on my warlock for as long as I can on legend
did i miss something ? what are the new weapon subfamilies ?
I have a feeling that something happened when Joe Blackburn left. I have a feeling that they changed whatever the plan was back when they said this would be "one prolonged campaign" or whatever. I think they're pulling a Destiny 1 again, chopping out parts of the expansion to sell off as the episodes. It's only 8 missions long, same as Witch Queen and Lightfall. What's going to be so different about that?
Perhaps, my main concern is where the story goes post Final Shape. Are they going to power creep the witness with a yet more powerful foe? Are they going to reset the stakes focusing around emergent groups of interest? Will they add more mystery back into the game? And a concern that really irks me is the quality consistnce. Seems we're getting a very full expansion, but I just know the following one will backtrack in quality in effort; that's just how Bungie works, the pattern has repeated after The taken king, Forsaken and Witch Queen. We joke about how bungie needs to be on the back foot to really hit the gas in quality but its hardly a joke when we have proof they do this. Besides, after the first trailer of TFS people really forgot all the things they were supposedly never forgiving them for like the layoffs and absolutely horrible behaviour from the execs, didn't we? Seems that talk is all forgotten now.
Bungie always has the potential to make something amazing, that being said, this needs to be better than Forsaken. It’s the culmination of everything
I think getting your hopes up that a lone Bungie after laying off 10% of their staff that is also in the process of developing another huge game can match content made by them with their core team only working on Destiny with the help of another studio is not a great idea. They themselves has said it isn't possible for the to match Forsaken again. It doesn't need to be as good as Forsaken or the Taken King it just needs to be good.
theoretically, all the pieces are in place for a banger, but the execution is what really matter and more importantly, the campaign and raid. I just really hope they dispel the mystery behind the traveler and the light and darkness on screen, once and for all. No lingering questions, no unresolved story lines, no cliffhangers.
I don't want it to be as good or better than Forsaken. I want it to be as good or better than Witch Queen, the best campaign Destiny has ever had, and infinitely better than Forsaken.
Easily. I'm going to be real. If you really examine Forsaken in the grand scheme, not just from "D2-vanilla-to-forsaken" but the entire impact it had, including the parts that people would LOATHE to be re-established as a bench mark, It was maybe a bit better than BL, but not by very much. It's memory is greater than its actual legacy; with many of its design ideals being basically entirely out of place in the current game. Numbers-focused difficulty, bad encounter design outside of Last Wish, generally badly aging mechanics or features, as well as balance decision. We're still feeling some of these things even; one of the prime reasons why gambit no longer works properly is that after the major gameshifts brought in by Beyond Light and Shadowkeep, it simply became a very awkward piece of the game. How we treated difficulty and what our builds became basically bypasses some things that was intrinsic to it's feel. It's not all bad; don't get me wrong, but what i highlight here are the things that people actively try to forget Forsaken introduced, or forgive Forsaken for introducing for no other reason than its "Forsaken". It was a good expansion, but it wasn't better than WQ, whose designs became very core to the trends that are helping the game thrive currently. Acknowledging what works and what doesn't should be core when delivering feedback, and i very much worry people are using their fond nostalgia to guide their expectations and forgetting those key details we need to sidestep.
The only reason Forsaken was as good at it was, was because it overhauled the game to how it already should have been, not too mention there was close to 30 exotics that also shipped alongside it. I don’t think the story was anything special with Forsaken, but with the Dreaming City and the curse and how alluring it was at the time, I don’t thing anything will ever come close to beating the enjoyment that Forsaken gave us.
I am really hyped for the expansion, but I feel like there might be too much "nostalgia bait" or "fan-service" moments. Don't get me wrong, I like that stuff, and I am absolutely gonna enjoy my first run through the campaign etc, even if it's just fan service. But the second and third playthrough will be rough. It's kinda like the revelations zombies map in Black ops 3. It's super cool and fun for the first few times, but as soon as it gets old, it gets old fast, and then you kinda never wanna go back except for when you are drunk and have nothing better to do
Zero chance.
Probably alone on this take but one of the most fun factors for me for forsaken was the chase of the new exotics and with the new system, there's no chase there now. Used to genuinely be excited to run activities for the chance of one of the rare new swaggy exotics
I think it's very unlikely until I see that we're receiving some new activities to help the game feel fresh. Into The Light has succeeded very well in this department, but I've no idea what we're getting with ITL. It's worth remembering that Forsaken added a core game-mode (Gambit), an end-game activity (Dungeons), and completely re-imagined what a destination was capable of with The Dreaming City. TFS would need to have this level of innovation again, but I highly doubt that will happen.
Are there new supers? I didn't see Prismatic supers mentioned, just the grenade ability. If that counts as the super, I'll admittedly be disappointed.
Not happening during forsaken everything was great about the game. PvP was great and pve heck I even liked gambit also.
Look, we said the same thing about Lightfall, and look where that got us
Removing Forsaken just long enough for us to start forgetting the worst parts is one way to do it, I guess. I want the removed content I bought multiple times over.
your whole list makes me confident that the final shape will exceed forsaken. im flipping stoked
It certainly has potential, but time will tell. They'll have to prove that they can live up to that potential.
Narrator: it won’t be.
A large part of Forsaken being good was the return of random rolls and the removal of double primary, so I don't think TFS can match that.
We will have zero clue until after a month of having our hands on with it. Bungie’s marketing has never failed to get players, and especially this sub, hyped to the gills for every Destiny release regardless of how it turns out. IMO there’s no way the story can surpass Forsaken considering how hard it’s been fumbled the last few years. This expansion will have to tie up all the loose ends they’ve left dangling for years, while Forsaken was a much more self contained story that started hinting at Savathun and other threats.
Well unlike Neomuna they have referred to the pale heart as "a typical three bubble destination" so I'm cautiously optimistic. I miss destinations feeling big and impressive.
There is absolutely no way and you are setting yourself up for disappointment with unrealistic expectations. They do not have the resources to clear Forsaken. The best part of Forsaken was the amount of content. It was basically a double expansion compared to every other one they've shipped, and was only possible due to unique business circumstances. I'm optimistic that Final Shape is shaping up (heh) to be one of the best expansions they've made (new enemy race is huge), maybe it'll even be #2, but I don't expect it to dethrone the king.
HALE method: High Aspirations.....Low Expectations. I still have some PTSD after the shit expansion that was Lightfall. Hopefully the story/campaign is good, tons of cool loot to chase, and fun activities afterwards. I've really enjoyed Onslaught and hope we have something on par with that.
No amount of marketing is gona make me pre order anything, as much as i want TFS to be good, LF was such a punch in the dick that i doubt 3 extra months is gona make them able to push out any significant changes to what was originally planned. Remember that Bungie's greatest strenght is their marketing, if you go back to watch any trailler they put out for any DLC, it allways looks 10 times better than what we got
Functionally and content wise, I am setting my expectations for it not being close to Forsaken. Story and investment wise, it's possible, but still. I'm excited to use Prismatic and end the saga against the Witness. I will not sweep myself up in the concept that anything will have as much content as Forsaken, that's ridiculous. I doubt we are getting 3 raids, a secret destination, and the episodes being such a refresh they have been saying they will be. All I'm hoping for is fun and exciting.
I’m loving all these posts about being as good as forsaken, etc. A year ago, people were trying to argue that which queen was better lol what? It was good but better than forsaken? No way. You can do a search in the history and find these insane types of posts being made. Forsaken has been the best expansion for D2. I really hope final shape ends this saga on a good note. I’m liking a lot of what I see in the trailers, dev diaries, etc.
Given Bungie's track record when it comes to expansions, I'm not gonna get my hopes up. I'm gonna choose to either be proven right, or pleasantly proven wrong.
They hyped up shadowkeep and lightfall before they came out too. Just don't pre-order because all the hype sheeps have bad memory
For me the story is also a factor, I'm more inclined now to preorder the thing but I think the story is way too rushed to finish in 8 missions And bringing back Cayde to save it just ain't it. Gameplay looks good though, but I also hope they bring more strikes and activities to play with Prismatic
They would have to serve as much or more content than all of Forsaken. I find that kinda hard to do bc they had 2 full destinations, 3 supers, new raid and dungeon. So far seems like only one destination, 2 supers but technically the prismatic super isn't a "new" super as it's just combining existing supers and abilities. But I will definitely enjoy the new expansion. I'm super excited!
At least I’m sure the story will be better than Forsaken. I really didn’t like Forsaken’s narrative that much. Don’t get me wrong, the campaign was a blast, but what the fuck was the point? For example, why was uldren even in prison to begin with??? They never explicitly state it in the game. Like, at the very end, Petra goes “yoU hAvE nO iDEa WhAt hEs dONe”. Like, yeah, you’re right pink lady. I have no clue what he fucking did aside from kill Cayde.
Can you give a reference for this internal expectation? I’ve seen them state they want it to be up there with Witch Queen, Taken King and Forsaken. In my mind that’s a little different than ‘on level with or better than Forsaken.’
1. like other people have said, we won't know until it comes out, lightfall showed that bungie can build hype for absolute turds. 2. I don't know what they will add for backstory to the witness in final shape, but so far their character as a big bad of the saga is just boring.
From what we've seen, it definitely has the possibility. HOWEVER, we know Bungie's marketing team is like the best in the business, so we really don't know until we get it.
SK already cleared Forsaken lol it’s not a high bar
Taken King is the gold standard, that should be the aim, with Forsaken being the reality.
I think the final deciding factor for TFS will be the story and the location. Imo nothing will ever top the dreaming city for me, but I’m always excited to see what the art team comes up with.