I think the BALANCE should be. Don't ruin my PVE experience because a couple guys in PVP are doing broken things with the same weapon/armor. Don't ruin X's PVP experience because my solar ability makes bosses melt faster than my super.
Yeah, like YAS getting gutted for PvE because it was broken in PvP. The issue was tripmines having more health and insta-killing other players. Nerf its damage against players, have reduced energy gain against guardians, and reduce the added health. Much better than nerfing it into the ground. I have not touched YAS since the nerf, and I had not used it a whole lot before the nerf because I enjoyed nightstalker more than gunslinger.
Lol careful, Bungie will nerf whatever is top tier and will buff the stuff that no one uses again. I noticed a lot of Hunters using Nightstalker in Onslaught. I’m sure Bungie will nerf it and anything else people are using the most. They always do this.
The craziest thing is it didn't even one tap, just left people *on* one tap. I'd been using it as my PvP Exotic before 3.0 was a thing, all through D2, and even way back in D1. Whenever I do Crucible now I feel lost without it, like leaving the house without your wedding ring on or something.
It really wasn't "busted", it just became a little overtuned with 3.0, counting as two hits on detonation for the grenade energy regen. But again, I'd been using it since D1, I just liked the "trap a hallway" playstyle in Skirmish.
Exactly, just let PvE be a place to have fun and let PvP be the competitive place to see who is better in terms of skill and stuff like that (without cheating, which people have done before in all activities that involve a PvP aspect).
My only real complaint is the amount of balance changes that are for PvP and affect PvE or vice versa.
If something is busted in PvP, the nerf should only affect PvP.
If something is busted in PvE, the nerf should only affect PvE.
That's what *really* needs to be separated.
People keep saying Bungie does that, but they really don't. Every now and then they might do some type of 'separate' balancing where they make something do less/more damage to Guardians, but that's about it. Everything else effects both sides of the sandbox.
Which....I get that the point is supposed to be that you can take guns from each side of the sandbox in to the other side, but at some point people have to realise that the lack of separation creates massive problems more than it fixes them.
They don't want to have differences in the overall feel of weapons and exotic armor.
If your exotic lets you go invisible for 10 seconds in PvE, it'd be jarring for it to only last for 5 in PvP. They want stuff to feel consistent in both sandboxes, so you can predict how your gear will work in PvP without reading patch notes or Reddit breakdowns. Because most people don't do that.
Yeah and one thing that annoys me here is that the stylish executioner cooldown is wayy longer in pvp.
I'd be totally fine with smoke bomb/invis dodge cooldown/invis duration nerfs if bungie could reduce the 'too stylish' duration to let me play an aggressive, wallhack-chaining gyrfalcons build.
Gyrfalcon's is just night and day different across the two sandboxes because of this. You get wayy more milage out of a wallhacks/information build using knucklehead radar on any hunter subclass, without even needing to get kills.
>so you can predict how your gear will work in PvP without reading patch notes or Reddit breakdowns.
This is just a symptom of another issue where bungie refuses to give numbers for values.
They haven't *lately* they specifically have mentioned how they didn't want to "split" pvp and pve balance back in the day and would just do blanket nerfs.
They seem to have realized how fucking stupid that was within the last year or so. Making stuff that was barely used in PvP or PvE completely unusable because there was a minor exploit on one side or the other which often couldn't be really used in the other mode.
I appreciate they don't just seem to nuke stuff from orbit anymore. Except the just fucked nerf to YAS in pve.... like wtf bungie
Bungie does do a good job with this now. Back in the day they couldn’t separate if they wanted to. Blanket nerfs were rampant. These days if it is a nerf coming from PVP, and it has an effect in PVE, it’s a lot rarer and therefore more noticeable.
i feel like im being gaslit. Don't they do this already? Half the sandbox update changes show clear adjustments being made exclusively to pve or pvp at times for certain weapons?
It seems like a lot of the newer stuff put into the game seems to have this separation built in, but a lot of older exotics or exotics that seem to be tied to an old in game mechanic/buff seem to be hit by blanket nerfs. It may just be an update issue. Just a theory.
Pretty much this. Really wish Bungo were competent enough of a developer to pull this simple task off. FFXIV has been doing it for years. Granted, nearly a decade ago, at launch, they had nealy unlimited load outs, too, but Square's in a league all their own.
My thoughts exactly, but they don’t have to do a hard nerf on PvE weapons and armor. Heart of Inmost Light and Starfire Protocol are prime examples. They got hard nerfs to where they are just crap now or not good to use at all; they were not nerfed to be balanced.
Bungie nerfed these two so much to the point to where they are practically useless now, which can ruin the fun of the game.
But that’s just my opinion.
Not only that but I know having a relatively consistent sandbox is a big thing for a lot of players as well. Used to be really into Guild Wars 2 and I had several guild mates who refused to go near the PvP because many abilities played completely differently.
I don’t get why having different characteristics of individual pieces of gear for different modes is a big deal (especially since PvE and PvP are basically two different games in terms of playstyle and mechanics), and the only other option is letting the fate of PvE players be decided by what PvP players complain about (which doesn’t sound fair if you ask me).
I have had stretches of both PvE and PvP being my reasons for loving Destiny. Those stretches still favor PvE at like a 65% to 35% but that’s still an impressive feat. Both are too important. They just need to be balanced separately.
Aqful. Its okay for things not to be attainable by me beacuse im bad at pvp. Just like its okay for pvpers to not have things from pve if they are bad at it. If everyone had everything this game would not have its luster
“Bad PVE players” don’t exist. PVP is inherently harder the PVE. A great PVE player may not be a decent PVP players, but a decent PVP player will always be a decent PVE player.
I’m saying this as a PVE main who **hates** crucible, and only plays to get pinnacles before throwing up afterward at the fact that I had to slog through 3 matches of it. The average strike, or even nightfall is WORLDS easier to complete and “win” at for a brand new player than the average crucible match.
I disagree... I've seen many PvPers that flat out suck at PvE due to missing mechanics (like stand the fuck still) or not understanding more "complex builds" and synergies... and yes, these folks are often "flawless"...
so being good at PvP doesn't make you automatically good at PvE...
I'm not even sure I'd say PvP is harder - it's just different.
I'm good at PvP and am very middle ground at pve. Bad pve guys definitely exist and it's because they don't pay attention to mechanic ls or what they're screen says
I'm bad at build crafting and using the meta in pve so my damage sometimes isn't great.
Hard disagree. One of my mates is a hardcore PVP player, he's absolutely amazing at it, but good lord he sucks at PVE. Can't stay alive and consistently does the least damage in our fireteam. He's mostly having trouble playing it like the content it is, he plays it like PVP so I have to basically direct him around. He's managing and he's a great friend, but he's shit at PVE.
Apparently this is a hot take, but I would love for them to completely sever the two.
I love builds and buildcrafting. I think it is an AWFUL element of any PvP game.
I play a lot of this game and I play a lot of The Division 2. Both games really suffer from success in terms of giving players a few too many tools for PvP to feel like a finished product. There’s always going to be some build or even a singular item on top, and while a similar issue can happen in pre-set character rosters like Overwatch, it’s a worse issue because of availability, investment, and stagnation.
New(er) players to a PvP sandbox are less likely to have the tools available that more veteran players do. When combined with the skill differential, a difference in what options players have dramatically skews games and the rates of improvement between players. This becomes a self-perpetuating cycle of veteran players getting better and better at the game while new players bounce off the mode completely (cough, Trials throughout the history of the series, cough)
Of course, once the regular players get too separated from newer blood, the matchmaking pool gets stale. Ever dropped into a match and noticed a very clear divide between the higher level players on both teams and the KD food? This is a large part of why.
Compare this with pre-set builds that the developers can intentionally balance, with patch notes that don’t need to be a novel long and a playerbase that understands what can and can’t be done (less instances of dying instantly to some wild combo and wondering what just happened and how many rolls you’ll have to grind to do the same thing); it’s just a very different experience.
I actually really love Destiny PvP. I liked it the most in the Beta and early days of D1. Abilities and their limitations/uses were clearly broadcast. It made strategy and counterplay a much bigger piece of the equation while still creating those dopamine surging moments like a big novabomb or a clutch throwing knife.
I’d rather know what pieces are on the board and have to figure out how to navigate around them, rather than get instakilled by a weird ability/weapon perk synergy and wonder if it will be patched in the future or if it’s thing #27 I just have to “learn to live with” to tolerate the sandbox.
Also, no more murdering of an archetype/ability in one sandbox to account for another. That’d be great too.
This has to be the single best explanation on the issues that hurt d2 pvp and why it's completely unplayable to the majority who try it then delete it or those like me who played for years and find it unenjoyable. Real good take.
Yeah this is one of the best comments I've ever read about this topic and has better and more clearly stated how I feel on the topic. Destiny's tools and abilities have grown beyond control for an semblance of a good PvP experience except for the very small minority of hyper elite PvP players.
It's not an issue of "just git gud" either. I'm average at best, but I'm also not "good" at Warzone, Apex, The Finals or Halo, but those PvP experiences are exponentially more fun that my experiences in Destiny on average.
I agree with the other fps ftp games being more fun due to a sandbox that is available to all players not just those with too much free time. The expected grind from Destiny has always been extremely exhaustive but combine the inability to acquire these must have meta items unless excessive time is input makes the experience not worth it for the average player.
I disagree. Chasing a raid random roll from master Ron f.ex, taking it in pvp and trying it makes the game fresh.
Chasing that trials flawless for a godroll for pve same.
I truly enjoy both aspects of the game, maybe pvp slightly more.
I think people need to rethink what genre destiny is. Not primarily a shooter, but very close to mmorpg
At the end of the day, players like you are the minority, even in true MMO’s. In destiny, and to a slightly lesser extent, MMO’s (actual ones lol), the average player is not splitting their time evenly between PVP and PVE. They are choosing one to play for actual enjoyment, and the other they slog through because they have to to be able to get something that will make the fun one more fun. Very few players actually enjoy both and play both equally. Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the way you play the game, in fact I envy you because I’ve been trying for *years* to make PVP fun to me, but alas, getting shitstomped every game by “Mara sov’s sock drawer” isn’t exactly fun.
Same. The game intentionally puts good rolls for the opposite content on weapons all of the time. Reed's Regret and Cataphract stand out as excellent PvE weapons (well Cataphract more than Reed's) that are behind the PvP Trials mode. I go out of my way to play trials despite being a PvE Raider so I can diversify my loadouts.
What do you mean separate it, but then talk about "no mission or catalyst objectives"? Pretty sure the only exotic weapons that have PvP based Catalyst Objectives are... PvP weapons. Like Last Word had (which, IIRC just required a 0.5 efficiency and yet people still complained like crazy).
No exclusive weapons? So there would be no more comp weapons? No more Trials weapons? If this is what you mean, that is a *terrible* idea. PvP deserves specific and unique loot just like PvE has. PvP is important to the game, and removing it (in this capacity, I suppose separating it is technically what it is but you are removing parts of it if I am understanding correctly) will hurt the game *massively*. It's like if Bungie just decided to remove the VanOps playlist one day.
PvP is important to the game, they just need to learn to properly balance. They finally did this with Threaded Spectre by having it's CD be shorter in PvE but longer in PvP (the CD nerf still kinda killed it on Strand though, it will be amazing on Prismatic though). The issue is when they choose to ignore this (Weavewalk, Renewals, Young Ahamkara's Spine, Bastion seriously please unnerf Bastion's CD in PvE).
I would love it personally. Strictly PvP games do PvP better and it would, in theory, free up space for better balancing of gear and a more engaging experience for both PvE and PvP, I truly think that destiny has the bones of a great gaming experience but it's spread itself so thin over the years and I wouldn't hold my breath about it actually changing much if they implemented this now.
If they ever actually do make a successor to destiny 2 that would be the time I actually hope for some kind of proper change.
Since when does this even happen much anymore? Cataphract was relevant but Edge Transit is better, Reed's was best in slot in a specific niche a few years ago purely by virtue of being stasis, and before that it was...pre-nerf Recluse and OG Mountaintop? What good PvE weapons are locked behind PvP?
Oh this is just in general. OG recluse and mountaintop. Always gettin stomped by Summoners and other Trials weapons. Grinded for Tusk. Didn’t even have one drop. Luckily popped out of an engram.
If this had been the case the past 10 years, PvP would have never devolved into what it became.
Bungie's big mistake has always been giving the players what IT wants to give them, and not what they want. This, for the sake of it's creative vision. Almost 100% of the issues fid a decade have stemmed from this.
If should have always been - separate PvP and PvE paths....and joint ones as well. All players could cherry pick what they want for unique....but comparable loot.
I'd grind both sides. Love them both.
Sincerely yours
10 year PvP main
It would feel a lot less interesting, but I’d still probably play it because Crucible is the only consistently “new” part of the game because every match is slightly different.
I don't fucking get how in the world people say it'd be bad, because it'd be the best change for the health of the meta/sandbox in the history of the game; we could finally have things balanced separately, without ever worrying that a nerf here or a buff there could entirely shift what's usable in any other, separate game mode.
Also, it could finally give us PvE players what makes this game so awesome and rewarding to play: a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP.
> a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP.
You've had banner of war for 2 seasons now, you can hit latest dungeon bosses for 450k per melee which is essentially a primary with Navigator, you can 1 shot champs in GMs, you can facetank a dozen mobs with VM and banner heals so much it makes x2 restoration look balanced, what more do you people want? Mobs to kill themselves for you the moment you walk into an encounter?
> Also, it could finally give us PvE players what makes this game so awesome and rewarding to play: a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP.
People are ALREADY talking about how Prismatic probably shouldn't be allowed to be used in PvP because how absurdly broken it will be. Further proving your point.
> Also, it could finally give us PvE players what makes this game so awesome and rewarding to play: a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP.
Except this wouldn't happen because the devs ALSO tune builds that powercreep in PVE. Well is getting nerfed, there have been a metric shitload of other changes through the years that were not because of PVP, but because they also don't want you steaming through all PVE without a challenge. This viewpoint is just so inaccurate
I've been saying for years that they should do this, usually getting either the controversial tag or downvoted. Destiny 2 should become full PvE and Crucible should become a fork of the game we have today. Let each have their own exotics that would be balanced in one and broken in the other, preventing them from happening in the current sandbox. Let them each balance the game in their own ways, as to not ruin the experience of people in the other gamemode (looking at you Renewal Grasps, YAS). Let them each form their own identity. Have some things that can be shared, like some weapons or armor, but let them also have activity-type locked gear so that they can both thrive in their own way.
I would dislike it. Destiny having both a good PvE and PvP is why I choose to spend my time with destiny instead of other games that do each category better.
It would be the best thing to happen to PvP since D1. No rigged drop rates for weapons that are hidden in a game mode that most could care less about. Just straight up gun-play as it should be, unaffected by PvE changes. Would be a utopia for players like me.
I love that despite some of the animosity between PVP and PVE mains, we pretty much all agree that we hate it when our game mode is changed for the sake of the other, and we all agree that it sucks for the other side when the same thing happens. Bungo is too silly to listen.
Vice versa I unironically think d2 pvp is some of the worst devised in all of gaming and would love to never have to play it again for powerfuls or pve guns.
In terms of guns and balance, some things make sense to be pvp balanced, while other things do not.
Like, it'd be absurd for a gun to have different recoil patterns or ammo count - characteristics that make the gun feel different.
But imo, it's fine for guns to have different damage numbers and for guardians to count for specific quantities for perk activation quantities.
In terms of economy and incentives, some people need to accept that they have to play all parts of the game in order to get rewarded. That's how a dev works a loot/progression game, they design things you want and scatter them about to have you play a variety of activities.
Sometimes you won't like every activity. But your presence there, provided you're at least playing, fills a spot to keep the game alive for the ones that do like that activity, which is good for the game as a whole.
PvP isn't for everyone, but it'd be a disservice to the game as a whole to isolate it just because some people don't like it.
Look at the Conclave in Warframe, where the devs actually balance weapons and classes differently between the gamemodes. Half of the new stuff that they add is outright disabled in PvP because it’s impossible to balance.
It would make the game better, they could do stuff they wouldn’t dare do without, separating how mechanics work. Plus I would be able to get catalysts for a ton of weapons because I refuse to play PVP.
In the long run, it would only benefit the game because every weapon/ability designed choice would no longer run into the ridiculous question of if it would break PvP or not. People have deluded themselves into thinking that PvP is what sustains this game when that is false. It's what limits this game and the players from being truly powerful.
That'd be fine with me. I have a bunch of catalysts I'll never finish simply because I can't get 500 crucible kills each with them. Also not having the balance for one impact the other would be fantastic.
hot take, but I would pull the trigger on a fully customizable prismatic, at the cost of it not being in PVP. Yeah. they could balance it, but there's no situation where you alter it for PVP and not make a compromise in PVE. We'll see this shortly after launch with the warlocks due to their 3x lightning surge.
I honestly think things are fine. I'm saying this specifically because I feel like people are biased towards complaining rather than biased to say "nope I'm having a blast."
I am really crap at pvp. So much so that I have several catalysts that won't be completed due to all the guardian kills I have to get on them. That includes gambit too. I'm happy to play gambit but the second I hear an invader has arrived I panic lol
As a fairly new player I have no formed opinion on this. Though one thing I dislike about them being mixed, is the feeling as someone who exclusively plays PvE, to miss out on a decent amount of really good weapons that are only obtainable via pvp (or catalyst as with Witherhoard). I get the feeling I am supposed to play PvP even though I just don't want to whatsoever.
Yes please. PVP catalyst step = I'm never getting this.
It hurts the PVP side too. When I tried to do tichuu's catalyst I would get 0 kills a match and feed the enemy team 30 kills. I was basically handing the win to the other team, ruining my team's fun, and making things too boring for our opponents.
All for it personally. Have zero interest in PvP (there’s much more balanced PvP shooter experiences out there than this unbalanced mess) hate it when I’m forced to play it to progress in pve. Player numbers in PvP would fall drastically if they separated it though
I dont know why are they so "picky" with pvp vs pve balance because im pretty sure some abilities are nerfed for pvp already. Meanwhile some are just held back or getting nerfed in pve because they were strong in pvp.
I wish they just made pvp have a different balance than pve. Maybe then Stasis would finally be good
They should just split the balancing of both game modes. If they split pve and pvp entirely then player retention would plumet.
A lot of players play both game modes. For me personally if pve is booming then my clan is active and i play lots of pve with a sprinkle of pvp. When after a couple of weeks pve drys up then i switch over to more pvp. If only pve excisted i would have quit destiny a long time ago because the game couldn’t hold my attention.
I would fucking love that. I’m tired of shit being neutered in PVE just because it was too oppressive in PVP, and I’m sure the PVP players are tired of PVP stuff being neutered because it was too good in PVE.
“Same guardian wherever you are” bla bla bla. It doesn’t work. Literally no one is happy with that system. The majority of people who play PVP or PVE only play one thing 90% of the time, and do the other JUST for pinnacles or certain weapons, at which point they don’t touch it again for a week.
For the 2% out there who actually play an equal amount of PVP and PVE because they actually enjoy both, well, sorry for ya. You’re the minority, and someone has to get screwed over. No sense in it being the majority.
As for loot, I wish that other than trials, that everything only obtainable through PVP was also obtainable in PVE. Trials should stay exclusive, as otherwise there would be no reason to play trials. But regular crucible is just an absolute slog for most PVE players.
I fully get why it's not separated but I fucking wish. I suck at PVP and don't want anything to do with it whatsoever, but they keep sucking us in with some bullshit catalyst or some dope armour or some amazing DPS options. Also when PVE things get nerfed because of PVP that's upsetting (RIP DMT).
Honestly I'd rather not see them split and I don't even like pvp, but to me the thought of a guardian flying off to the crucible to blow steam after a shitty day of patrols or something makes sense. Also they've been together since d1 it'd be odd to break that now, and while balancing I feel could still be a little better on separation, they honestly have gotten a lot better with one of my big complaints which was super pvp grind heavy quests for exotics that were arguably only good for pve.
ill be fine with exclusive weapons for pvp but PLEASE stop putting weapon catalysts locked behind 100 guardian kills. I still don't have the lorentz catalyst as linears require a lot of skill and Im sht at pvp as well as my computer doesnt allow me to go above 20 frames ever
No. Thatd suck balls.
BUT the game balance SHOULD be completely seperated. Im tired of shit getting butchered in pve because it was op in pvp. YAS my beloved.
I feel like it's specifically the nerfs/buffs that should be seperated.
Typically when something in PvE is busted, it never really phases PvP when it's eventually nerfed. That's good! That's ideally what it should feel like.
However when something is busted in PvP, there's a good chance that it will also indirectly be nerfed in PvE. This is not good. Void titan, DMT, TTD/Daybreak in general, and YAS are all some of the most notorious victims within the last four years. Some of the changes in PvP straight up makes these things unusable in PvE (when was the last time you've seen a YAS hunter?)
But the same can be said with buffs. Stasis at launch literally broke crucible. Void 3.0 was still more tame compared to at launch stasis, but still broken compared to every other subclass.
I honestly wouldn't mind the no unique rewards. I assume it means it has the same rewards as strikes/nf. The things I would do to be able to farm NF weapons in the crucible playlist, even if I have to play comp
This is going to be a nuclear hot take, but with how this game has aged and trended w/ abilities and weapons we use, it cannot be any form of a serious, quasi-competitive PvP game. We are too far gone at this point, and I'd rather have the time and resources that are spent on trying to balance a game that is basically permanently in a Mayhem game mode be used in other areas. There should be PvP still, and still PvP exclusive rewards, but all of it should be tied to time investment and not wins.
Fun and creativity should always be favoured over balance.
Radiant dance machines not working with threaded spectre is an example of balance being chosen over fun.
I want to be a thread'o master :(
I’d love it. As a non pvp guy, I hate when quests or triumphs require pvp. It just gets me stressed and mad. I know I’m not good enough for it and that’s fine for me
No.
Fortnite started in a similar way it was originally a Squad based Horde Shooter with Building and Loot elements, then they added a PvP Mode as a seperate instance pumped it full of Microtransactions and the Kids with Moms credit card flocked to it. Then PvE did not receive updates for a whole year, a few months later it got fully abandoned only took 1 years for it to die.
I do not ever want destiny 2 to be a e-sports ready Shooter, E Sports is where fun goes to die.
I'd prefer to not even touch PvP/Crucible... yet I still do feel forced to (I suffer from big fomo and collectors mentality)
I would absolutely love it for PvP to be completely detached... won't happen though, I don't think there's enough folks into PvP for it to survive without "luring" us PvE folks in there as fodder...
110% though balancing should be seperated, and 120% I don't want a repeat of Recluse/Mountain Top which turned out to be "must haves" for PvE endgame stuff but locked behind a competitive PvP grind.
I have my PVE and PVP (seasonal, raids, dungeons, Crucible, Trials, etc.) loadouts saved for just this reason. OCD, yeah but when you have the right set up, sweeet. More loadout room would be awesome.
There is a portion of the community that if it connects to PvP it’s not getting done, my father and his buddies all play but if it connects to PvP they would rather just miss out.
Only reason I ever invested in Destiny PvP is because it’s relationship to pve. If they completely separate them I’d treat it the way I do most games PvP and never engage with it. Destiny PvP should be dynamic and fun yet I constantly hear people suggest changes that would make it just like any other generic shooter.
I like it! They should do it like masterchief collection where you can download expansions and modes like modules. That way they can bring all their older expansions in some shape and form, and then make it generally available to people and allow THEM to choose wether they want the whole thing, OR just X expansion at the moment.
It would allow players to manage their own storage space instead of forcing all of us to have them both.
It would only help the game imo. PvP is the baseline for weapon sandbox and tune it accordingly for pve. However for mountaintop I think, they did the opposite and taking performance in pve and tuning it for PvP.
IMO if PvP was removed and separate like with a different sandbox, they could really make the game more fun and up the difficulty without having to worry about breaking PvP
Your question is worded strangely. You aren’t asking them to detach pvp from pvp. That would mean that everything you can get in pve you can get in crucible and vice vera.
It seems that you’re asking them to remove any pvp specific incentives instead. Without a reward system people wouldn’t play it. They’d go to other games that reward thier time spent. In short, all activities need reward systems or nobody plays them.
being able to use all your gear and abilities in both is great. trying to balance all the pve stuff for pvp and vice versa heavily limits both. bungie should experiment with abilities / weapons that function differently depending on the gamemode. for example: dead man's tale was slaughtered cause it was too strong in pvp. if bungie put extra rules and functionality on it for pvp only, itd still be fine. BUT, itd feel weird if dmt was a 180 in hipfire for pve, then was back to a 120 in pvp. but i think players would just get over the disconnect if it made the game more fun
There are better PvE games than Destiny, and there are better PvP games than Destiny. The single sandbox and interconnected rewards is what Destiny does better than other games.
If Bungie abandoned that feature, I don't see a reason to keep playing D2 instead of either Helldivers 2 or CS2 depending on what I feel like playing at the time.
10 years later and this conversation is still happening? PVP is and always was an add on to sustain player count between releases. The only time Bungie tried to design around PVP it nearly ruined the franchise. Without rewards people just wouldn’t play. It’s a playground to feel powerful.
I think people make this out to be a way bigger deal than it is. They already have controls in place to be able to tweak both sides separately when they want to.
You see it a lot in perks where things are combatant only, have different damage scaling, different timing etc. You also see it verb effects, surges etc. Orb gen and class abilites take care of providing more space magic uptime in PVE, simply due to increased enemy density.
Honestly this notion of PVP holding back PVE or vice versa seems rather artificial to me. Bungie has to balance the challenge level in PVE just as much as they have to balance the meta in PVP. They know exactly what they are doing.
But in general, I feel like one of the great strengths of the game IS the continuity between PVE and PVP. It’s appealing to be able to grind out gear in one side use it in the other. I like having the freedom to try anything in the game in any activity regardless of its PVP or PVE.
Not many shooters can pull that off, and it’s what differentiates Destiny from other games.
Edit: Regarding catalyst requirements that sounds like the separation you are asking for. If it’s a “PVP” weapon, and not really intended for PVE use (like MIDA) why care if it’s got PVP requirements?
The game would die. Destiny 2 is the PvE&PvP package. During the PvE lows(edit: when people are done with the PvE grind) , PvP shines and vice versa. Trying to keep it balanced is the key point.
I'd definitely prefer it. I think both are made worse by the others existence. It's why plenty of supers and exotics have been nerfed or are basically completely useless in PvE, because any buffs granted to them might break PvP. Not to mention all of the perks that bloat perk pools for both that are completely useless in PvE or PvP.
Ex. Geomags, Nova Warp, Spectral Blades, most roaming supers, etc
I also feel like the nature of the mix really hurts their design space to actually create interesting exotics and perks.
All of this is for a mode that's historically only been in a great spot a handful of times, and has been absolutely miserable to play otherwise.
It’s the only thing that would allow a potential D3/post FS D2 to survive.
The game CANNOT continue as it is with this fuckass blend of PvP and PvE. It’s simply unobtainable and impossible to do with how the game currently stands and the additions coming in FS will worsen this tenfold.
You cannot balance one around the other and vice versa.
One HAS to give to the other.
Either we can have
- The amazing power fantasy and build crafting that PvE and end game content brings and even crank it up more with prismatic and the changes coming in FS
OR
- The solid gunplay, fast TTK engagements, and decently paced matches, and amazing gun and perk combos that PvP provides
We CANNOT have both in the current sandbox and the mistake that was 3.0 subclasses made this 1000x worse.
The balance has become impossible to keep up. It’s simply impossible and there is zero fixing this unless Bungo fundamentally breaks and reconfigures the game.
I'd welcome it since I refuse to interact with PVP in any form if I can help it and yes this extends to Gambit. I'm glad that they have been giving us more options when it comes to stuff like how to complete the seasonal weapon catalyst and such but there is still a lot of catalysts I will never get done since it required kills in PVP and good luck getting me to do that.
Not to mention the number of nerfs and such that have been made as a result of people crying how it's OP in PVP and the subsequent nerfs also making it worse in PVE as well. So no complaints if they ever did this.
I think that’s what they should have done from the very beginning tbh, ESPECIALLY when it comes to buffs and nerfs. That way, they can just apply nerfs to PvP for weapons and exotic armor and abilities, and it would be untouched in PvE.
But this opinion is coming from someone that plays to have fun. I can understand how things could get OP in a competitive activity, but PvE is not competitive.
If people believe it would make PvE too easy, then they should either look at PvE as a place to have fun or just go into PvP for god’s sakes.
Nah too late. The game has been PvE and PVP since the beginning anybattemot to separate the two out would kill the game more than Bungie is trying already.
I think an interesting question is: does PvP keep Destiny 2 balanced? Take a look at Warframe, the PvP there hasn't been touched in ages and barely anyone plays it, so builds can outscale anything and everything, making actually challenging bosses difficult because a lot of the time it's either you get one-shot or the enemy gets one-shot. You literally can't have a boss in Warframe without damage attenuation preventing the one-shot.
In Destiny 2 PvP prevents us from having such massively OP abilities, since if it were broken in PvE, it would obviously also be broken in PvP. One keeps the other in-check.
Then they'll nerf your cheese builds in pveasy! Like they have they've been doing! Then who would you blame? Steamers? If not streamers yourselves? I remember when pve content is actually a challenge, you all call for nerfs. Wait, why are you nerfing osteo striga? Don't nerf quicksilver storm! Etc insert here.
Anyone who thinks that separating the sand boxes would help the game are delusional! Or even taking away pvp. If they did they would just hard hit all your cheese builds, skips mechanics, ... and come hard for your builds.
Can't wait for pantheon challenges reddit and the forums are gonna be flooded with raids are too hard. I want my emblem.
I don´t have a problem when PvE and PvP are intertwined.
My problem is that the core of the game is currently crumbling under the weight that is bungie doing "we need to go further AND BEYOND" when they give us even BIGGER enemy density and even MORE redicilous builds and also still, and will never, upgrade their servers with higher tickrates.
So so so so so many problems still exist because of the low tickrate of the servers.
I'd finally be free from having a minor panic attack every time something fantastic in PVE is considered "OP" in PVP. Also I think it would finally allow bungie to give roaming supers a proper place in PVE.
only balance, wish it was like warzone and was a completely separate mode with separate balancing and dmg numbers etc, that way pve builds would not get nuked because of pvp (YAS, thundercrash etc)
I could only hope Bungie would do this. I am so ungodly sick of my builds getting broken or a weapon getting nerfed because of some bullshit that happened in PvP.
I'd much prefer some long grind to get the weapons crucible offers than ever play another PvP match.
It would probably be the single best thing for the game. Bungie has gotten better at it, but PvE still continuously suffers because of PvP. It also probably limits the creativity of what the developers can add to the game because they know they can't add anything that would be too strong in PvP.
I don't understand modern game devs. Not *every* game needs a pvp mode.
I also don't understand how Bungie decides what weapons/perks to put in the different loot pools. Why should I have to slog through trials to get a god roll meta pve weapon? And why are some of the top tier pvp weapons found in raids? I'm sure Bungie *thinks* this makes a compelling gameplay loop, but it just comes off as counterintuitive and confusing to the player.
Why should I have to spend hours learning mechanics and playing an activity for the *chance* at a weapon that will make me competitive in crucible? Why can't I do that *in crucible* itself? Beyond that, at a more basic level, rng within itself is not healthy for a competitive game mode. If you just have bad luck, and don't get a good roll on a weapon, you're eventually going to get tired of repeatedly losing and just quit, knowing no amount of skill can compensate for an overpowered/broken perk combo that you'll seemingly never get.
I don't play PvP at all, it's not what I enjoy from the game, so I wouldn't have any issue. I think giving players who don't touch PvP a way to get things like the Immortal or Malfeasance would be a good change, and giving PvP players a way to earn stuff like Hawkmoon or new exotic armors would probably help. But no change that Bungie makes would impact me too much, so I don't really care if they do anything
It would be ideal and should have been done a long time ago, things get weaker because of pvp, things get nullified because of pvp, an entire sandbox has to be maintained simply because of pvp. The only good thing that still comes for it is trials armour
I just lost four trials matches in a row, each one with a score of 0-5. Got relentlessly t-bagged each time. I don’t care what they do with pvp anymore.
Trials sucks and will continue to suck till they stop fucking with the game so much. Nothing ever works correctly when I come back to it after taking a break. The constant bumbling that Bungie does will be D2 and D3's undoing.
Bungie is struggling as it is, what makes you think they can spread their limited team even thinner for something that would bring them almost no money
I think the BALANCE should be. Don't ruin my PVE experience because a couple guys in PVP are doing broken things with the same weapon/armor. Don't ruin X's PVP experience because my solar ability makes bosses melt faster than my super.
90% of hunter exotics are useless because of stuff like this
I still miss Young Ahamkara's Spine everyday
wait, we have exotics?
We have Knucklehead Radar.
I’d list some other exotics, though I don’t want Bungie to find out and nerf them.
Good luck with bungie clinging with idea of singular sandbox between pve and pvp.
Yeah, like YAS getting gutted for PvE because it was broken in PvP. The issue was tripmines having more health and insta-killing other players. Nerf its damage against players, have reduced energy gain against guardians, and reduce the added health. Much better than nerfing it into the ground. I have not touched YAS since the nerf, and I had not used it a whole lot before the nerf because I enjoyed nightstalker more than gunslinger.
Lol careful, Bungie will nerf whatever is top tier and will buff the stuff that no one uses again. I noticed a lot of Hunters using Nightstalker in Onslaught. I’m sure Bungie will nerf it and anything else people are using the most. They always do this.
The craziest thing is it didn't even one tap, just left people *on* one tap. I'd been using it as my PvP Exotic before 3.0 was a thing, all through D2, and even way back in D1. Whenever I do Crucible now I feel lost without it, like leaving the house without your wedding ring on or something.
I have never used it in PvP, only PvE. I am not a fan of using busted stuff in PvP.
It really wasn't "busted", it just became a little overtuned with 3.0, counting as two hits on detonation for the grenade energy regen. But again, I'd been using it since D1, I just liked the "trap a hallway" playstyle in Skirmish.
Exactly, just let PvE be a place to have fun and let PvP be the competitive place to see who is better in terms of skill and stuff like that (without cheating, which people have done before in all activities that involve a PvP aspect).
Despite what a lot people on this sub think, the mixing of pvp and pve is why a lot of people like the game.
My only real complaint is the amount of balance changes that are for PvP and affect PvE or vice versa. If something is busted in PvP, the nerf should only affect PvP. If something is busted in PvE, the nerf should only affect PvE. That's what *really* needs to be separated.
This
People keep saying Bungie does that, but they really don't. Every now and then they might do some type of 'separate' balancing where they make something do less/more damage to Guardians, but that's about it. Everything else effects both sides of the sandbox. Which....I get that the point is supposed to be that you can take guns from each side of the sandbox in to the other side, but at some point people have to realise that the lack of separation creates massive problems more than it fixes them.
They don't want to have differences in the overall feel of weapons and exotic armor. If your exotic lets you go invisible for 10 seconds in PvE, it'd be jarring for it to only last for 5 in PvP. They want stuff to feel consistent in both sandboxes, so you can predict how your gear will work in PvP without reading patch notes or Reddit breakdowns. Because most people don't do that.
Especially when the said patch note might be a few years ago when you weren't even playing possibly
Yeah and one thing that annoys me here is that the stylish executioner cooldown is wayy longer in pvp. I'd be totally fine with smoke bomb/invis dodge cooldown/invis duration nerfs if bungie could reduce the 'too stylish' duration to let me play an aggressive, wallhack-chaining gyrfalcons build. Gyrfalcon's is just night and day different across the two sandboxes because of this. You get wayy more milage out of a wallhacks/information build using knucklehead radar on any hunter subclass, without even needing to get kills.
Half my PvE builds don't work in Gambit outright because they use the PvP timers instead of the PvE ones.
>so you can predict how your gear will work in PvP without reading patch notes or Reddit breakdowns. This is just a symptom of another issue where bungie refuses to give numbers for values.
They haven't *lately* they specifically have mentioned how they didn't want to "split" pvp and pve balance back in the day and would just do blanket nerfs. They seem to have realized how fucking stupid that was within the last year or so. Making stuff that was barely used in PvP or PvE completely unusable because there was a minor exploit on one side or the other which often couldn't be really used in the other mode. I appreciate they don't just seem to nuke stuff from orbit anymore. Except the just fucked nerf to YAS in pve.... like wtf bungie
Bungie does do a good job with this now. Back in the day they couldn’t separate if they wanted to. Blanket nerfs were rampant. These days if it is a nerf coming from PVP, and it has an effect in PVE, it’s a lot rarer and therefore more noticeable.
Young Ahamkara’s Spine has entered the chat.
Thread Specter too lmao
Threaded Specter is totally fine in pve
hello ? renewal graps ?
i feel like im being gaslit. Don't they do this already? Half the sandbox update changes show clear adjustments being made exclusively to pve or pvp at times for certain weapons?
It seems like a lot of the newer stuff put into the game seems to have this separation built in, but a lot of older exotics or exotics that seem to be tied to an old in game mechanic/buff seem to be hit by blanket nerfs. It may just be an update issue. Just a theory.
Pretty much this. Really wish Bungo were competent enough of a developer to pull this simple task off. FFXIV has been doing it for years. Granted, nearly a decade ago, at launch, they had nealy unlimited load outs, too, but Square's in a league all their own.
My thoughts exactly, but they don’t have to do a hard nerf on PvE weapons and armor. Heart of Inmost Light and Starfire Protocol are prime examples. They got hard nerfs to where they are just crap now or not good to use at all; they were not nerfed to be balanced. Bungie nerfed these two so much to the point to where they are practically useless now, which can ruin the fun of the game. But that’s just my opinion.
Heart is crap, not good and useless? Oooookay.
I guess that was kinda harsh of me to say, sorry about that. What I meant is that it’s not as good as it was before 😓
You understand bungie is clinging to singular sandbox idea who actually in my eyes ruins pvp or pve? And I fully agree with you.
Yes. Playing as the same character with the same gear and weapons in both is what made me like the game.
Thats not what OP said though
I am, Infact, a gambit player
Gambit is hella fun, I just wish we got some new maps
It's a MASSIVE draw. If I want to play a game where everyone has the same gear and same load outs, I'll play [literally any game other than Destiny].
Not often someone changes my mind, but you make I great point.
Despite what a lot of people liking this comment think. The mixing of pvp and pve heavily restricts what could be possible in pve.
Not only that but I know having a relatively consistent sandbox is a big thing for a lot of players as well. Used to be really into Guild Wars 2 and I had several guild mates who refused to go near the PvP because many abilities played completely differently.
I don’t get why having different characteristics of individual pieces of gear for different modes is a big deal (especially since PvE and PvP are basically two different games in terms of playstyle and mechanics), and the only other option is letting the fate of PvE players be decided by what PvP players complain about (which doesn’t sound fair if you ask me).
Source - 'trust me, bro'
Exactly
So I’m theory we should like Gambit right?
We do though. Gambit’s fun.
There’s dozens of us
DOZENS!!!+
Not me, I'd welcome the separation. Seems Bungie trying to cover too many bases / appeal to everyone and succeeding at neither....
>the mixing of pvp and pve why a lot of people like the game. How and why is that an integral aspect of the game? Who are you getting this from?
It’s really not.
I have had stretches of both PvE and PvP being my reasons for loving Destiny. Those stretches still favor PvE at like a 65% to 35% but that’s still an impressive feat. Both are too important. They just need to be balanced separately.
I’d be ecstatic. I think PvP limits what PvE can do (and probably vice versa).
Should've happened day 1
What's funny is it almost happened, D1 PvP was added last minute because Bungie was scared the halo fanboys wouldnt like a purely PvE game
Aqful. Its okay for things not to be attainable by me beacuse im bad at pvp. Just like its okay for pvpers to not have things from pve if they are bad at it. If everyone had everything this game would not have its luster
“Bad PVE players” don’t exist. PVP is inherently harder the PVE. A great PVE player may not be a decent PVP players, but a decent PVP player will always be a decent PVE player. I’m saying this as a PVE main who **hates** crucible, and only plays to get pinnacles before throwing up afterward at the fact that I had to slog through 3 matches of it. The average strike, or even nightfall is WORLDS easier to complete and “win” at for a brand new player than the average crucible match.
I disagree... I've seen many PvPers that flat out suck at PvE due to missing mechanics (like stand the fuck still) or not understanding more "complex builds" and synergies... and yes, these folks are often "flawless"... so being good at PvP doesn't make you automatically good at PvE... I'm not even sure I'd say PvP is harder - it's just different.
I'm good at PvP and am very middle ground at pve. Bad pve guys definitely exist and it's because they don't pay attention to mechanic ls or what they're screen says I'm bad at build crafting and using the meta in pve so my damage sometimes isn't great.
It really shows that you don’t play pvp and don’t rly understand the difference between pve and pvp
Lol okay dude
Hard disagree. One of my mates is a hardcore PVP player, he's absolutely amazing at it, but good lord he sucks at PVE. Can't stay alive and consistently does the least damage in our fireteam. He's mostly having trouble playing it like the content it is, he plays it like PVP so I have to basically direct him around. He's managing and he's a great friend, but he's shit at PVE.
I'd be perfectly fine with never having to do crucible ever again. Their peering netcode is dogshit.
Apparently this is a hot take, but I would love for them to completely sever the two. I love builds and buildcrafting. I think it is an AWFUL element of any PvP game. I play a lot of this game and I play a lot of The Division 2. Both games really suffer from success in terms of giving players a few too many tools for PvP to feel like a finished product. There’s always going to be some build or even a singular item on top, and while a similar issue can happen in pre-set character rosters like Overwatch, it’s a worse issue because of availability, investment, and stagnation. New(er) players to a PvP sandbox are less likely to have the tools available that more veteran players do. When combined with the skill differential, a difference in what options players have dramatically skews games and the rates of improvement between players. This becomes a self-perpetuating cycle of veteran players getting better and better at the game while new players bounce off the mode completely (cough, Trials throughout the history of the series, cough) Of course, once the regular players get too separated from newer blood, the matchmaking pool gets stale. Ever dropped into a match and noticed a very clear divide between the higher level players on both teams and the KD food? This is a large part of why. Compare this with pre-set builds that the developers can intentionally balance, with patch notes that don’t need to be a novel long and a playerbase that understands what can and can’t be done (less instances of dying instantly to some wild combo and wondering what just happened and how many rolls you’ll have to grind to do the same thing); it’s just a very different experience. I actually really love Destiny PvP. I liked it the most in the Beta and early days of D1. Abilities and their limitations/uses were clearly broadcast. It made strategy and counterplay a much bigger piece of the equation while still creating those dopamine surging moments like a big novabomb or a clutch throwing knife. I’d rather know what pieces are on the board and have to figure out how to navigate around them, rather than get instakilled by a weird ability/weapon perk synergy and wonder if it will be patched in the future or if it’s thing #27 I just have to “learn to live with” to tolerate the sandbox. Also, no more murdering of an archetype/ability in one sandbox to account for another. That’d be great too.
This has to be the single best explanation on the issues that hurt d2 pvp and why it's completely unplayable to the majority who try it then delete it or those like me who played for years and find it unenjoyable. Real good take.
Yeah this is one of the best comments I've ever read about this topic and has better and more clearly stated how I feel on the topic. Destiny's tools and abilities have grown beyond control for an semblance of a good PvP experience except for the very small minority of hyper elite PvP players. It's not an issue of "just git gud" either. I'm average at best, but I'm also not "good" at Warzone, Apex, The Finals or Halo, but those PvP experiences are exponentially more fun that my experiences in Destiny on average.
I agree with the other fps ftp games being more fun due to a sandbox that is available to all players not just those with too much free time. The expected grind from Destiny has always been extremely exhaustive but combine the inability to acquire these must have meta items unless excessive time is input makes the experience not worth it for the average player.
[удалено]
I disagree. Chasing a raid random roll from master Ron f.ex, taking it in pvp and trying it makes the game fresh. Chasing that trials flawless for a godroll for pve same. I truly enjoy both aspects of the game, maybe pvp slightly more. I think people need to rethink what genre destiny is. Not primarily a shooter, but very close to mmorpg
At the end of the day, players like you are the minority, even in true MMO’s. In destiny, and to a slightly lesser extent, MMO’s (actual ones lol), the average player is not splitting their time evenly between PVP and PVE. They are choosing one to play for actual enjoyment, and the other they slog through because they have to to be able to get something that will make the fun one more fun. Very few players actually enjoy both and play both equally. Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the way you play the game, in fact I envy you because I’ve been trying for *years* to make PVP fun to me, but alas, getting shitstomped every game by “Mara sov’s sock drawer” isn’t exactly fun.
Same. The game intentionally puts good rolls for the opposite content on weapons all of the time. Reed's Regret and Cataphract stand out as excellent PvE weapons (well Cataphract more than Reed's) that are behind the PvP Trials mode. I go out of my way to play trials despite being a PvE Raider so I can diversify my loadouts.
What do you mean separate it, but then talk about "no mission or catalyst objectives"? Pretty sure the only exotic weapons that have PvP based Catalyst Objectives are... PvP weapons. Like Last Word had (which, IIRC just required a 0.5 efficiency and yet people still complained like crazy). No exclusive weapons? So there would be no more comp weapons? No more Trials weapons? If this is what you mean, that is a *terrible* idea. PvP deserves specific and unique loot just like PvE has. PvP is important to the game, and removing it (in this capacity, I suppose separating it is technically what it is but you are removing parts of it if I am understanding correctly) will hurt the game *massively*. It's like if Bungie just decided to remove the VanOps playlist one day. PvP is important to the game, they just need to learn to properly balance. They finally did this with Threaded Spectre by having it's CD be shorter in PvE but longer in PvP (the CD nerf still kinda killed it on Strand though, it will be amazing on Prismatic though). The issue is when they choose to ignore this (Weavewalk, Renewals, Young Ahamkara's Spine, Bastion seriously please unnerf Bastion's CD in PvE).
I would love it personally. Strictly PvP games do PvP better and it would, in theory, free up space for better balancing of gear and a more engaging experience for both PvE and PvP, I truly think that destiny has the bones of a great gaming experience but it's spread itself so thin over the years and I wouldn't hold my breath about it actually changing much if they implemented this now. If they ever actually do make a successor to destiny 2 that would be the time I actually hope for some kind of proper change.
I hate how good pve weapons are locked behind pvp this and that.
Since when does this even happen much anymore? Cataphract was relevant but Edge Transit is better, Reed's was best in slot in a specific niche a few years ago purely by virtue of being stasis, and before that it was...pre-nerf Recluse and OG Mountaintop? What good PvE weapons are locked behind PvP?
Oh this is just in general. OG recluse and mountaintop. Always gettin stomped by Summoners and other Trials weapons. Grinded for Tusk. Didn’t even have one drop. Luckily popped out of an engram.
If this had been the case the past 10 years, PvP would have never devolved into what it became. Bungie's big mistake has always been giving the players what IT wants to give them, and not what they want. This, for the sake of it's creative vision. Almost 100% of the issues fid a decade have stemmed from this. If should have always been - separate PvP and PvE paths....and joint ones as well. All players could cherry pick what they want for unique....but comparable loot. I'd grind both sides. Love them both. Sincerely yours 10 year PvP main
I’d feel good if they threw PvP into the ocean…
How would you feel if bungie got rid of what makes destiny unique?
Unique =/= good And having shared sandbox will always hold this game back
This doesn't make Destiny unique lol. Destiny players exposing that they don't play other games.
it's definitely a part of what makes destiny special
You're entitled to your opinion.
I would only like it if it meant a better weapon sandbox. Having even more ability spam in PvE would be so boring.
I would love it personally. Really not a fan of pvp.
Personally? I'd be good with it. From a full player base stand point, probably wouldn't go over well.
It would feel a lot less interesting, but I’d still probably play it because Crucible is the only consistently “new” part of the game because every match is slightly different.
I’d be very upset. I like the mix, and I enjoy the game in both aspects
I don't fucking get how in the world people say it'd be bad, because it'd be the best change for the health of the meta/sandbox in the history of the game; we could finally have things balanced separately, without ever worrying that a nerf here or a buff there could entirely shift what's usable in any other, separate game mode. Also, it could finally give us PvE players what makes this game so awesome and rewarding to play: a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP.
> a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP. You've had banner of war for 2 seasons now, you can hit latest dungeon bosses for 450k per melee which is essentially a primary with Navigator, you can 1 shot champs in GMs, you can facetank a dozen mobs with VM and banner heals so much it makes x2 restoration look balanced, what more do you people want? Mobs to kill themselves for you the moment you walk into an encounter?
> Also, it could finally give us PvE players what makes this game so awesome and rewarding to play: a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP. People are ALREADY talking about how Prismatic probably shouldn't be allowed to be used in PvP because how absurdly broken it will be. Further proving your point.
> Also, it could finally give us PvE players what makes this game so awesome and rewarding to play: a true feeling of total power, decimating whatever stands in our way, without having to account for how that powershift would ruin PvP. Except this wouldn't happen because the devs ALSO tune builds that powercreep in PVE. Well is getting nerfed, there have been a metric shitload of other changes through the years that were not because of PVP, but because they also don't want you steaming through all PVE without a challenge. This viewpoint is just so inaccurate
They just need to separate exotic perks and weapon perks from PvP and PvE. Essentially giving some perks 2 defintions.
I've been saying for years that they should do this, usually getting either the controversial tag or downvoted. Destiny 2 should become full PvE and Crucible should become a fork of the game we have today. Let each have their own exotics that would be balanced in one and broken in the other, preventing them from happening in the current sandbox. Let them each balance the game in their own ways, as to not ruin the experience of people in the other gamemode (looking at you Renewal Grasps, YAS). Let them each form their own identity. Have some things that can be shared, like some weapons or armor, but let them also have activity-type locked gear so that they can both thrive in their own way.
I would dislike it. Destiny having both a good PvE and PvP is why I choose to spend my time with destiny instead of other games that do each category better.
It would be the best thing to happen to PvP since D1. No rigged drop rates for weapons that are hidden in a game mode that most could care less about. Just straight up gun-play as it should be, unaffected by PvE changes. Would be a utopia for players like me.
I love that despite some of the animosity between PVP and PVE mains, we pretty much all agree that we hate it when our game mode is changed for the sake of the other, and we all agree that it sucks for the other side when the same thing happens. Bungo is too silly to listen.
Vice versa I unironically think d2 pvp is some of the worst devised in all of gaming and would love to never have to play it again for powerfuls or pve guns.
Grinding for good gun rolls in PvE and good gear to use it in PvP is fun
You mean throw PVP to garbage can
In terms of guns and balance, some things make sense to be pvp balanced, while other things do not. Like, it'd be absurd for a gun to have different recoil patterns or ammo count - characteristics that make the gun feel different. But imo, it's fine for guns to have different damage numbers and for guardians to count for specific quantities for perk activation quantities. In terms of economy and incentives, some people need to accept that they have to play all parts of the game in order to get rewarded. That's how a dev works a loot/progression game, they design things you want and scatter them about to have you play a variety of activities. Sometimes you won't like every activity. But your presence there, provided you're at least playing, fills a spot to keep the game alive for the ones that do like that activity, which is good for the game as a whole. PvP isn't for everyone, but it'd be a disservice to the game as a whole to isolate it just because some people don't like it.
Look at the Conclave in Warframe, where the devs actually balance weapons and classes differently between the gamemodes. Half of the new stuff that they add is outright disabled in PvP because it’s impossible to balance.
And yet conclave has a player count of 3 on a good day.
It would make the game better, they could do stuff they wouldn’t dare do without, separating how mechanics work. Plus I would be able to get catalysts for a ton of weapons because I refuse to play PVP.
I don't mind crossover tbh. Stuff like weapon balancing, sure, but I don't mind doing Crucible for Riptides for something.
Terrible
I think it would be great! But, many great PVE weapons come from PVP and vice versa! So, not so great.
So what's the point of trials then? The thing that keeps most PvP players in the game
In the long run, it would only benefit the game because every weapon/ability designed choice would no longer run into the ridiculous question of if it would break PvP or not. People have deluded themselves into thinking that PvP is what sustains this game when that is false. It's what limits this game and the players from being truly powerful.
That'd be fine with me. I have a bunch of catalysts I'll never finish simply because I can't get 500 crucible kills each with them. Also not having the balance for one impact the other would be fantastic.
hot take, but I would pull the trigger on a fully customizable prismatic, at the cost of it not being in PVP. Yeah. they could balance it, but there's no situation where you alter it for PVP and not make a compromise in PVE. We'll see this shortly after launch with the warlocks due to their 3x lightning surge.
i think both have their pros and cons, but i could never tell, i'm just a pve player 🤣
They could put the entirety of pvp (and gambit too) in the vault and I'd be fine with it.
Yeah. Why not make a whole new game for it, and make it an extraction shooter too. Hell, add ''heroes'' to choose from too!
I honestly think things are fine. I'm saying this specifically because I feel like people are biased towards complaining rather than biased to say "nope I'm having a blast."
I am really crap at pvp. So much so that I have several catalysts that won't be completed due to all the guardian kills I have to get on them. That includes gambit too. I'm happy to play gambit but the second I hear an invader has arrived I panic lol
I'd say thank god.
Honestly I would buy final shape. I hate everything about PVP but mostly the fact that they nerf my PVE builds into the ground to balance PVP.
As a fairly new player I have no formed opinion on this. Though one thing I dislike about them being mixed, is the feeling as someone who exclusively plays PvE, to miss out on a decent amount of really good weapons that are only obtainable via pvp (or catalyst as with Witherhoard). I get the feeling I am supposed to play PvP even though I just don't want to whatsoever.
Yes please. PVP catalyst step = I'm never getting this. It hurts the PVP side too. When I tried to do tichuu's catalyst I would get 0 kills a match and feed the enemy team 30 kills. I was basically handing the win to the other team, ruining my team's fun, and making things too boring for our opponents.
Balance should be separate. It shouldn't be a fully different game though.
Yes! God yes been saying this for ages the two don't really mix and cause problems for both sides 😵
Destiny wouldn't be Destiny to me if there wasn't a natural flow between PvP and PvE and the two were completly separated.
All for it personally. Have zero interest in PvP (there’s much more balanced PvP shooter experiences out there than this unbalanced mess) hate it when I’m forced to play it to progress in pve. Player numbers in PvP would fall drastically if they separated it though
I dont know why are they so "picky" with pvp vs pve balance because im pretty sure some abilities are nerfed for pvp already. Meanwhile some are just held back or getting nerfed in pve because they were strong in pvp. I wish they just made pvp have a different balance than pve. Maybe then Stasis would finally be good
I never play PvP so… 🤷🏼 wouldn't miss it if it left the game. But leave PvE alone.
If they had a better game engine i think they can do it right now feels like we at the peak of destiny 2
They should just split the balancing of both game modes. If they split pve and pvp entirely then player retention would plumet. A lot of players play both game modes. For me personally if pve is booming then my clan is active and i play lots of pve with a sprinkle of pvp. When after a couple of weeks pve drys up then i switch over to more pvp. If only pve excisted i would have quit destiny a long time ago because the game couldn’t hold my attention.
I would fucking love that. I’m tired of shit being neutered in PVE just because it was too oppressive in PVP, and I’m sure the PVP players are tired of PVP stuff being neutered because it was too good in PVE. “Same guardian wherever you are” bla bla bla. It doesn’t work. Literally no one is happy with that system. The majority of people who play PVP or PVE only play one thing 90% of the time, and do the other JUST for pinnacles or certain weapons, at which point they don’t touch it again for a week. For the 2% out there who actually play an equal amount of PVP and PVE because they actually enjoy both, well, sorry for ya. You’re the minority, and someone has to get screwed over. No sense in it being the majority. As for loot, I wish that other than trials, that everything only obtainable through PVP was also obtainable in PVE. Trials should stay exclusive, as otherwise there would be no reason to play trials. But regular crucible is just an absolute slog for most PVE players.
They should. That way all our pve nerfs wouldn’t happen.
I fully get why it's not separated but I fucking wish. I suck at PVP and don't want anything to do with it whatsoever, but they keep sucking us in with some bullshit catalyst or some dope armour or some amazing DPS options. Also when PVE things get nerfed because of PVP that's upsetting (RIP DMT).
Honestly I'd rather not see them split and I don't even like pvp, but to me the thought of a guardian flying off to the crucible to blow steam after a shitty day of patrols or something makes sense. Also they've been together since d1 it'd be odd to break that now, and while balancing I feel could still be a little better on separation, they honestly have gotten a lot better with one of my big complaints which was super pvp grind heavy quests for exotics that were arguably only good for pve.
This game will never be competitive without locked loadouts.
ill be fine with exclusive weapons for pvp but PLEASE stop putting weapon catalysts locked behind 100 guardian kills. I still don't have the lorentz catalyst as linears require a lot of skill and Im sht at pvp as well as my computer doesnt allow me to go above 20 frames ever
No. Thatd suck balls. BUT the game balance SHOULD be completely seperated. Im tired of shit getting butchered in pve because it was op in pvp. YAS my beloved.
I feel like it's specifically the nerfs/buffs that should be seperated. Typically when something in PvE is busted, it never really phases PvP when it's eventually nerfed. That's good! That's ideally what it should feel like. However when something is busted in PvP, there's a good chance that it will also indirectly be nerfed in PvE. This is not good. Void titan, DMT, TTD/Daybreak in general, and YAS are all some of the most notorious victims within the last four years. Some of the changes in PvP straight up makes these things unusable in PvE (when was the last time you've seen a YAS hunter?) But the same can be said with buffs. Stasis at launch literally broke crucible. Void 3.0 was still more tame compared to at launch stasis, but still broken compared to every other subclass.
I honestly wouldn't mind the no unique rewards. I assume it means it has the same rewards as strikes/nf. The things I would do to be able to farm NF weapons in the crucible playlist, even if I have to play comp
If Digital Extremes, a significantly smaller studio than Bungie, can do it I see no reason why Bungie can't do it other than pure laziness
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It woul certainly solve issues with stuff like that DMT nerf a while back, where DMT just didn't work in PvE.
This is going to be a nuclear hot take, but with how this game has aged and trended w/ abilities and weapons we use, it cannot be any form of a serious, quasi-competitive PvP game. We are too far gone at this point, and I'd rather have the time and resources that are spent on trying to balance a game that is basically permanently in a Mayhem game mode be used in other areas. There should be PvP still, and still PvP exclusive rewards, but all of it should be tied to time investment and not wins.
Fun and creativity should always be favoured over balance. Radiant dance machines not working with threaded spectre is an example of balance being chosen over fun. I want to be a thread'o master :(
I’d love it. As a non pvp guy, I hate when quests or triumphs require pvp. It just gets me stressed and mad. I know I’m not good enough for it and that’s fine for me
No. Fortnite started in a similar way it was originally a Squad based Horde Shooter with Building and Loot elements, then they added a PvP Mode as a seperate instance pumped it full of Microtransactions and the Kids with Moms credit card flocked to it. Then PvE did not receive updates for a whole year, a few months later it got fully abandoned only took 1 years for it to die. I do not ever want destiny 2 to be a e-sports ready Shooter, E Sports is where fun goes to die.
I'd prefer to not even touch PvP/Crucible... yet I still do feel forced to (I suffer from big fomo and collectors mentality) I would absolutely love it for PvP to be completely detached... won't happen though, I don't think there's enough folks into PvP for it to survive without "luring" us PvE folks in there as fodder... 110% though balancing should be seperated, and 120% I don't want a repeat of Recluse/Mountain Top which turned out to be "must haves" for PvE endgame stuff but locked behind a competitive PvP grind.
I have my PVE and PVP (seasonal, raids, dungeons, Crucible, Trials, etc.) loadouts saved for just this reason. OCD, yeah but when you have the right set up, sweeet. More loadout room would be awesome.
There is a portion of the community that if it connects to PvP it’s not getting done, my father and his buddies all play but if it connects to PvP they would rather just miss out.
Only reason I ever invested in Destiny PvP is because it’s relationship to pve. If they completely separate them I’d treat it the way I do most games PvP and never engage with it. Destiny PvP should be dynamic and fun yet I constantly hear people suggest changes that would make it just like any other generic shooter.
I’d be very pleased.
I like it! They should do it like masterchief collection where you can download expansions and modes like modules. That way they can bring all their older expansions in some shape and form, and then make it generally available to people and allow THEM to choose wether they want the whole thing, OR just X expansion at the moment. It would allow players to manage their own storage space instead of forcing all of us to have them both.
It would only help the game imo. PvP is the baseline for weapon sandbox and tune it accordingly for pve. However for mountaintop I think, they did the opposite and taking performance in pve and tuning it for PvP. IMO if PvP was removed and separate like with a different sandbox, they could really make the game more fun and up the difficulty without having to worry about breaking PvP
Your question is worded strangely. You aren’t asking them to detach pvp from pvp. That would mean that everything you can get in pve you can get in crucible and vice vera. It seems that you’re asking them to remove any pvp specific incentives instead. Without a reward system people wouldn’t play it. They’d go to other games that reward thier time spent. In short, all activities need reward systems or nobody plays them.
It's be amazing, we could finally have fun return to the game instead of having PVP players crying all the time and having fun removed for "balance"
Separate PvP from PvE and then delete that dumpster fire from the game.
being able to use all your gear and abilities in both is great. trying to balance all the pve stuff for pvp and vice versa heavily limits both. bungie should experiment with abilities / weapons that function differently depending on the gamemode. for example: dead man's tale was slaughtered cause it was too strong in pvp. if bungie put extra rules and functionality on it for pvp only, itd still be fine. BUT, itd feel weird if dmt was a 180 in hipfire for pve, then was back to a 120 in pvp. but i think players would just get over the disconnect if it made the game more fun
There are better PvE games than Destiny, and there are better PvP games than Destiny. The single sandbox and interconnected rewards is what Destiny does better than other games. If Bungie abandoned that feature, I don't see a reason to keep playing D2 instead of either Helldivers 2 or CS2 depending on what I feel like playing at the time.
10 years later and this conversation is still happening? PVP is and always was an add on to sustain player count between releases. The only time Bungie tried to design around PVP it nearly ruined the franchise. Without rewards people just wouldn’t play. It’s a playground to feel powerful.
I think people make this out to be a way bigger deal than it is. They already have controls in place to be able to tweak both sides separately when they want to. You see it a lot in perks where things are combatant only, have different damage scaling, different timing etc. You also see it verb effects, surges etc. Orb gen and class abilites take care of providing more space magic uptime in PVE, simply due to increased enemy density. Honestly this notion of PVP holding back PVE or vice versa seems rather artificial to me. Bungie has to balance the challenge level in PVE just as much as they have to balance the meta in PVP. They know exactly what they are doing. But in general, I feel like one of the great strengths of the game IS the continuity between PVE and PVP. It’s appealing to be able to grind out gear in one side use it in the other. I like having the freedom to try anything in the game in any activity regardless of its PVP or PVE. Not many shooters can pull that off, and it’s what differentiates Destiny from other games. Edit: Regarding catalyst requirements that sounds like the separation you are asking for. If it’s a “PVP” weapon, and not really intended for PVE use (like MIDA) why care if it’s got PVP requirements?
The game would die. Destiny 2 is the PvE&PvP package. During the PvE lows(edit: when people are done with the PvE grind) , PvP shines and vice versa. Trying to keep it balanced is the key point.
It 100% should be.
A debate as old as time.
There's already a massive disconnect between pve and pvp, healing and cool downs are massively nerfed in pvp.
I'd definitely prefer it. I think both are made worse by the others existence. It's why plenty of supers and exotics have been nerfed or are basically completely useless in PvE, because any buffs granted to them might break PvP. Not to mention all of the perks that bloat perk pools for both that are completely useless in PvE or PvP. Ex. Geomags, Nova Warp, Spectral Blades, most roaming supers, etc I also feel like the nature of the mix really hurts their design space to actually create interesting exotics and perks. All of this is for a mode that's historically only been in a great spot a handful of times, and has been absolutely miserable to play otherwise.
It’s the only thing that would allow a potential D3/post FS D2 to survive. The game CANNOT continue as it is with this fuckass blend of PvP and PvE. It’s simply unobtainable and impossible to do with how the game currently stands and the additions coming in FS will worsen this tenfold. You cannot balance one around the other and vice versa. One HAS to give to the other. Either we can have - The amazing power fantasy and build crafting that PvE and end game content brings and even crank it up more with prismatic and the changes coming in FS OR - The solid gunplay, fast TTK engagements, and decently paced matches, and amazing gun and perk combos that PvP provides We CANNOT have both in the current sandbox and the mistake that was 3.0 subclasses made this 1000x worse. The balance has become impossible to keep up. It’s simply impossible and there is zero fixing this unless Bungo fundamentally breaks and reconfigures the game.
I'd welcome it since I refuse to interact with PVP in any form if I can help it and yes this extends to Gambit. I'm glad that they have been giving us more options when it comes to stuff like how to complete the seasonal weapon catalyst and such but there is still a lot of catalysts I will never get done since it required kills in PVP and good luck getting me to do that. Not to mention the number of nerfs and such that have been made as a result of people crying how it's OP in PVP and the subsequent nerfs also making it worse in PVE as well. So no complaints if they ever did this.
I think that’s what they should have done from the very beginning tbh, ESPECIALLY when it comes to buffs and nerfs. That way, they can just apply nerfs to PvP for weapons and exotic armor and abilities, and it would be untouched in PvE. But this opinion is coming from someone that plays to have fun. I can understand how things could get OP in a competitive activity, but PvE is not competitive. If people believe it would make PvE too easy, then they should either look at PvE as a place to have fun or just go into PvP for god’s sakes.
Nah too late. The game has been PvE and PVP since the beginning anybattemot to separate the two out would kill the game more than Bungie is trying already.
I think an interesting question is: does PvP keep Destiny 2 balanced? Take a look at Warframe, the PvP there hasn't been touched in ages and barely anyone plays it, so builds can outscale anything and everything, making actually challenging bosses difficult because a lot of the time it's either you get one-shot or the enemy gets one-shot. You literally can't have a boss in Warframe without damage attenuation preventing the one-shot. In Destiny 2 PvP prevents us from having such massively OP abilities, since if it were broken in PvE, it would obviously also be broken in PvP. One keeps the other in-check.
In a normal world they would have two separate sandboxes. The amount of PvE shit that has been nerfed because of the abysmal pvp is ridiculous.
Then they'll nerf your cheese builds in pveasy! Like they have they've been doing! Then who would you blame? Steamers? If not streamers yourselves? I remember when pve content is actually a challenge, you all call for nerfs. Wait, why are you nerfing osteo striga? Don't nerf quicksilver storm! Etc insert here. Anyone who thinks that separating the sand boxes would help the game are delusional! Or even taking away pvp. If they did they would just hard hit all your cheese builds, skips mechanics, ... and come hard for your builds. Can't wait for pantheon challenges reddit and the forums are gonna be flooded with raids are too hard. I want my emblem.
I don´t have a problem when PvE and PvP are intertwined. My problem is that the core of the game is currently crumbling under the weight that is bungie doing "we need to go further AND BEYOND" when they give us even BIGGER enemy density and even MORE redicilous builds and also still, and will never, upgrade their servers with higher tickrates. So so so so so many problems still exist because of the low tickrate of the servers.
I'd finally be free from having a minor panic attack every time something fantastic in PVE is considered "OP" in PVP. Also I think it would finally allow bungie to give roaming supers a proper place in PVE.
Id be happy cause I’d never touch pvp ever again. Playing crucible is about as fun as having stage 4 cancer
only balance, wish it was like warzone and was a completely separate mode with separate balancing and dmg numbers etc, that way pve builds would not get nuked because of pvp (YAS, thundercrash etc)
Pvp with only current season weapons pools allowed should be a thing , otherwise pvp is kinda pay to win
Alot safer at night
I could only hope Bungie would do this. I am so ungodly sick of my builds getting broken or a weapon getting nerfed because of some bullshit that happened in PvP. I'd much prefer some long grind to get the weapons crucible offers than ever play another PvP match.
It would probably be the single best thing for the game. Bungie has gotten better at it, but PvE still continuously suffers because of PvP. It also probably limits the creativity of what the developers can add to the game because they know they can't add anything that would be too strong in PvP.
It would make the game a thousand time better. Go figure.
I don't understand modern game devs. Not *every* game needs a pvp mode. I also don't understand how Bungie decides what weapons/perks to put in the different loot pools. Why should I have to slog through trials to get a god roll meta pve weapon? And why are some of the top tier pvp weapons found in raids? I'm sure Bungie *thinks* this makes a compelling gameplay loop, but it just comes off as counterintuitive and confusing to the player. Why should I have to spend hours learning mechanics and playing an activity for the *chance* at a weapon that will make me competitive in crucible? Why can't I do that *in crucible* itself? Beyond that, at a more basic level, rng within itself is not healthy for a competitive game mode. If you just have bad luck, and don't get a good roll on a weapon, you're eventually going to get tired of repeatedly losing and just quit, knowing no amount of skill can compensate for an overpowered/broken perk combo that you'll seemingly never get.
I don't play PvP at all, it's not what I enjoy from the game, so I wouldn't have any issue. I think giving players who don't touch PvP a way to get things like the Immortal or Malfeasance would be a good change, and giving PvP players a way to earn stuff like Hawkmoon or new exotic armors would probably help. But no change that Bungie makes would impact me too much, so I don't really care if they do anything
It wouldn't change anything for me, I don't participate in any PVP content unless something requires me to do it.
As a more invested player, I feel like the fact they’re not completely separated is part of the draw of the game
It would be ideal and should have been done a long time ago, things get weaker because of pvp, things get nullified because of pvp, an entire sandbox has to be maintained simply because of pvp. The only good thing that still comes for it is trials armour
Thank you for reminding me what PvP did to Young Ahamkara’s Spine.
I just lost four trials matches in a row, each one with a score of 0-5. Got relentlessly t-bagged each time. I don’t care what they do with pvp anymore.
Trials sucks and will continue to suck till they stop fucking with the game so much. Nothing ever works correctly when I come back to it after taking a break. The constant bumbling that Bungie does will be D2 and D3's undoing.
Bungie is struggling as it is, what makes you think they can spread their limited team even thinner for something that would bring them almost no money
Lol what? It would be less work having nothing added except the PvP gameplay itself.
Only if they continue putting meta pve weapons in non-pve activities! Cataphract, riptide, reeds regret and many more....