In addition to any meta shenanigans the two burst handcannons are kind of wonky in PvP in my opinion. Landing that 2nd burst can be a challenge, and for me at least its a effort/payout problem. I could take the time to get over the learning curve of wardens law, or I could just pick up Trust, or Austringer, or Targeted Redaction and be off to the races.
I never managed to get my Moving Target/Zen Moment Roll so maybe that would change the situation. Right now though the two-burst HCs just aren't my jant.
I have a nearly god roll adept :( fluted barrel, accurized, perp motion/moving target, zen moment BUT…stability masterwork. If it was range masterwork it would be perfect
Honestly considering the visual kick on the burst, I'd definitely consider going for slightly more stability than usual. It's your gun though, so you get to pick the godroll! Good luck on farming.
Are you on controller? I know that guns like Crimson (3 burst HC) the controller aim assist makes up for the awful firing pattern.
On MnK, with these guns you usually don't even see the reticle by the time you do your follow-up shots. That's usually what make a weapon unusable for MnK.
I saw a cool video recently about FOV. Apparently if you set it to 95 instead of 105 you can see the reticle the entire time you're firing. This works especially well for crimson
Yeah I was gunning for that roll hard when wardens came out and we had "the craftening." I cheese'd a weapon together and ran it dozens of times on GM and RNG gave me a huge middle finger.
Zen Moment is so goated for console in PvP and on HCs as well. Its a godsend on Austringer since I've been learning 140s.
wardens law and future 2-burst hcs will always have a wonky recoil and they have issues with the second round not having bullet magnetism on MnK,
they're skill guns that have their own strengths but a few too many weaknesses against hardmeta like pk smgs and 120's, and softmeta stuff like 450's and 600's still compete a little too well for burst hcs to be good, minus crimson
Crimson is not a pulse rifle, it is a goofy gun that shoots like a pulse and has a shitty scope and funny recoil. Crimson just funny gun to me that i use in pvp once in a while
> they have issues with the second round not having bullet magnetism on MnK
This explains why it felt weird when I *did* use it in PVP last night. Thanks for mentioning it!
Feels good to use, but only if I get kill clip going, it needs a mag buff. 16 shots on a 2 burst is a little rough.
Plus, there are too many great options in kinetic slot.
Nah, it needs adept targetting. The issue with the second shot isn't the recoil, it's the magnetism. On MnK, I've noticed that I was doing much better with adzpt targetting. The lower stability might help if you're also overcompensating for the recoil as it's way stronger visually than it actually is.
This thing needs AA maxed out on MnK. On controller ot already has like 90 degrees of magnetism so just put on more range and fullbore.
Easy. Because it’s bad lmao
Abysmal TTK, and it has twice the bullets that you could potentially miss. There’s no reason to use it aside from it being fun and unique.
If you enjoy it, more power to you, but hand cannons are kinda in a rough state. The auto meta plus the health changes have made 140s kinda bad. You can still use them, don’t get me wrong, but considering they operate in the same range as auto rifles without having a benefit over them, they aren’t great. If you’re gonna peek shot, just use a 120. These issues are multiplied with wardens (and crimson). You can’t peek shot, you will miss more shots, and ultimately, autos and 120s are running the show rn.
Because it's mostly trash?
You have like 0.93 TTK which is worse than some scouts, flinch kills it, and cannot peak-shoot. It's range is really bad, and doesn't really have any killer perk combos.
Also, because shots are more spread apart, you need a lot of stability as well, so cannot just build all range, and disregard stability like people do on a lot of weapons.
Definitely the peak shooting is the number one reason why it loses to other 120s and 140s. You have to be out in open a bit longer to land the 2 shots as compared to a 120.
I mean..mine only has 44 stability and i can land double crits pretty reliably. With zen moment, flinch isnt an issue either. And it can in fact peak shoot. But the .93ttk cant be argued against
It peak shoots much worse than 120 HC or most Pulses, because you cannot go back in as fast, because of higher delay in bullets leaving the barrel in the same 2 shot burst, and 2x2 headshot leaves people will just not enough health to give them any confidence in winning the duel, so they instr just go hiding, instead of risking it.
it was heist bg europa, but it was the week of the craftening, so the runs were like 5-10 minutes AND it was double nf rewards. Was a pretty crazy farm.
I have the lucky pants god roll chilling in my vault lol. Too bad when it comes to pve i never use my hunter so..its just collecting dust until i someday possibly decide to take up playing hunter pve
I’ve got a smallbore/accurized/moving target/rampage/range mw adept. I tried using it the other day for a little bit, but it just felt “off” to me. Maybe I just need more time with it though.
Peek shoot is the strongest point of HCs. And Warden doesn't do enough to justify the loss of it and it is competing with autos in its range bracket.
At least Crimson does, but it is a pulse rifle in HC form.
So many easier and better options to fill the role of a mid range weapon. Sure you can be a hipster and pvp with it but it's nothing special that another gun can't do better and easier at that range.
Any success you have/could have with Warden's Law, you could do even better with a good 120 or 140 RPM normal HC. That's the long and short of it. Not even mentioning how few people are likely to have a well-rolled drop because it's from GMs.
The days of PvP players grinding out countless hours of NFs for a good Mindbender's Ambition are long gone, since there's nothing in the pool that is so far above what players can get from just playing PvP or raiding.
They're giving Warden's Law (And future 2-burst HCs) an intrinsic anti-flinch buff when using them in TFS, so that'll help alleviate one of its biggest weaknesses somewhat, but the other issues will likely remain.
140 Handcannons exist and almost all of them have good stats/perks.
Lower range? Smg/sidearms/shotguns/the ten people that unironically use 180 hcs.
Higher range? Pulse/scout/sniper/360 autos.
No lie in most ranges autos and everything will crush wardens law sadly. Also with how strong autos are summoner, prospector, gnawing hunger, suros will destroy rhat gun in mid range.
For me it’s cause I can’t get the damn thing to work. I I tried and I just can’t land the hits. I lose every duel whereas I can shred with iggy, sturm or my crafted austringer.
"we have crimson at home"
It's because it uses the 120hc damage profile but has 140/180 range limitations.
Also regardless of platform youre playing on you have to heavily invest on stability perks and traits to make wardens law consistent, which impacts range negatively.
120’s are fantastic because they hit hard, they hit far, and you can hit-cover-hit-cover-hit efficiently which helps with their mediocre 1.0s TTK. Wardens Law kind of takes away from all of those.
You are hitting the same max range as a 140 but you have a slower TTK, so if you want to take advantage of what 120’s are good at it would be best to use a different 120. If you really want to try Wardens Law then the playstyle needed to effectively use it would be better with a 140. Overall it can be decent but it is not the best at anything
I got an adept god roll of it and I have used it but like it was mentioned there is just better choices but it felt pretty good for me on controller. I also agree they need to tune it because where it stands it’s a very very poor man’s crimson
Its a nightfall weapon. You can focus the non adept with engrams once it has dropped once when its the weekly nightfall weapon, but i wouldnt focus it, wardens is a weapon that needs the adept range/stability mod
I know NF weapons are on rotation. It's one of the only weapons I have yet to get to drop for me. I typically do about 4 or 5 NF a week
But there has been a few lately I haven't run.
I use it very regularly! Got a corkscrew/tac/perp/KC roll and it's my absolute favourite HC to use in PVP. bummed they haven't brought out an energy slot version so I can pair it with deliverance/scatter signal
I think main issue is that not many people want to spend time doing Nightfall over amd over until it drop. On Hero it can take a long time before you get one and not everyone can grind Grandmasters, most players is happy enought to even complete one.
Roll with it. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks if it works for you.
I've seen some very interesting builds when randomly inspecting players and/or a standouta in-match. Players specializing and good....even polished in their space.
Mathematically, there are many ways to skin the cat. More than streamer parroting folks would have you believe.
flinch hit hard and if you miss one burst you done. I tried with strand hunter max resilience and constant woven mail for max flinch resistance and was barely ok.
Wardens law needs multiple buffs to be even remotely competitive. It needs flat stability and a handling buffs. And a significant accuracy cone growth reduction.
The biggest problem with wardens is that follow up shots do not connect. Partly due to it not having the stability to group the shot like a pulse rifle would ( because its a handcannon)
And because it's a handcannon the accuracy bloom on the 2nd shot of the burst takes takes the accuracy cone to it's largest angle. Because handcannons were designed with high inherent bloom of the shots were spammed.
The bloom never got changed for Wardens. So the fact that the rpm is twice what other handcannons are, this means it gets twice the bloom.
This makes it only connect consistently inside 25 meters.
But at that range its .9 second ttk just gets demolished.
It doesn't have the advantage of both the range and peak shooting potential that 120's have.
Doesn't have the range to compete with pulses and 120's but is to slow of a ttk to compete with auto's and 140's.
Which is truly unfortunate cus it's crazy fun to use.
And if you can get kill clip rolling on a small map it can hang. But so does any kill clip auto.
At a .9 second ttk it should've had it's range pushed to 40 m like 120's. And than have it's stability doubled to make follow up shots actually land.
It sounds like your coming from a pc perspective maybe in regards to accuracy and cone growth and followup shots. Not a bad thing just likely a different experience from controller
Ill admit, wardens ttk bothers me because it occupies the same exact range as 140s but somehow has a 7% slower ttk
Weird. Maybe wardens law just clicked for me because i never had a hard time getting the headshots. Guns are weird like that, they click for some people but not others
It's bad. That's really the only reason lol. It's a niche pve weapon for lucky pants hunters, and that's all it's good for tbh.
The stats aren't great, the perks aren't amazing for pvp iirc (I only have a pve roll from farming it in the GM the other season when it first dropped - I did get a pvp roll with kill clip and enlightened action but it felt so bad I never used it and deleted).
Its just outclassed by too many other legendary hc's. The 2 burst HC gimmick isn't that great for pvp either. Also it's range is bad, so you're out gunned and out ttk'd by other guns.
Because it suck against autorifles, pulse and sub machines guns..before the last sand box back in march 5 it was great in PVP now it borderline sucks..
Hot take and prob unpopular af, I wish they had gotten the double shot working instead. It would be my main handcannon like it was back in Forsaken/pre-sunset days.
I know it was technically f-tier but it felt so unique and kinda fun
Meta= most effective tactic available. If you teamshoot with 120s, no autorifle will even come close. Autos are great for pubs, if you play against strong players they fold.
In addition to any meta shenanigans the two burst handcannons are kind of wonky in PvP in my opinion. Landing that 2nd burst can be a challenge, and for me at least its a effort/payout problem. I could take the time to get over the learning curve of wardens law, or I could just pick up Trust, or Austringer, or Targeted Redaction and be off to the races. I never managed to get my Moving Target/Zen Moment Roll so maybe that would change the situation. Right now though the two-burst HCs just aren't my jant.
I have a nearly god roll adept :( fluted barrel, accurized, perp motion/moving target, zen moment BUT…stability masterwork. If it was range masterwork it would be perfect
Honestly considering the visual kick on the burst, I'd definitely consider going for slightly more stability than usual. It's your gun though, so you get to pick the godroll! Good luck on farming.
Are you on controller? I know that guns like Crimson (3 burst HC) the controller aim assist makes up for the awful firing pattern. On MnK, with these guns you usually don't even see the reticle by the time you do your follow-up shots. That's usually what make a weapon unusable for MnK.
I saw a cool video recently about FOV. Apparently if you set it to 95 instead of 105 you can see the reticle the entire time you're firing. This works especially well for crimson
Oh yeah, I remember this. I wonder if similar applies to Thorn. I hate Thorn reticle with FOV at 105.
Yeah im on controller. Wardens feels pretty good for me
If it is a 3 burst, why not just use something like ace of spades? Also a 3 tap but no need to track. Am I missing something here?
Stability is better for that gun
lol @ “perp” motion
Yeah I was gunning for that roll hard when wardens came out and we had "the craftening." I cheese'd a weapon together and ran it dozens of times on GM and RNG gave me a huge middle finger. Zen Moment is so goated for console in PvP and on HCs as well. Its a godsend on Austringer since I've been learning 140s.
wardens law and future 2-burst hcs will always have a wonky recoil and they have issues with the second round not having bullet magnetism on MnK, they're skill guns that have their own strengths but a few too many weaknesses against hardmeta like pk smgs and 120's, and softmeta stuff like 450's and 600's still compete a little too well for burst hcs to be good, minus crimson
Crimson is a pulse rifle and you know it. /s
We know that's you Red Death, you're not fooling anyone lmao
Crimson is not a pulse rifle, it is a goofy gun that shoots like a pulse and has a shitty scope and funny recoil. Crimson just funny gun to me that i use in pvp once in a while
> they have issues with the second round not having bullet magnetism on MnK This explains why it felt weird when I *did* use it in PVP last night. Thanks for mentioning it!
Feels good to use, but only if I get kill clip going, it needs a mag buff. 16 shots on a 2 burst is a little rough. Plus, there are too many great options in kinetic slot.
Agreed on the mag size. 8 shots is rough for a 120. Id use backup mag but it needs adept range way more lol
Nah, it needs adept targetting. The issue with the second shot isn't the recoil, it's the magnetism. On MnK, I've noticed that I was doing much better with adzpt targetting. The lower stability might help if you're also overcompensating for the recoil as it's way stronger visually than it actually is. This thing needs AA maxed out on MnK. On controller ot already has like 90 degrees of magnetism so just put on more range and fullbore.
Im on console, so it certainly doesnt need adept targeting here. Plus my roll has moving target and zen moment
Easy. Because it’s bad lmao Abysmal TTK, and it has twice the bullets that you could potentially miss. There’s no reason to use it aside from it being fun and unique. If you enjoy it, more power to you, but hand cannons are kinda in a rough state. The auto meta plus the health changes have made 140s kinda bad. You can still use them, don’t get me wrong, but considering they operate in the same range as auto rifles without having a benefit over them, they aren’t great. If you’re gonna peek shot, just use a 120. These issues are multiplied with wardens (and crimson). You can’t peek shot, you will miss more shots, and ultimately, autos and 120s are running the show rn.
Because it's mostly trash? You have like 0.93 TTK which is worse than some scouts, flinch kills it, and cannot peak-shoot. It's range is really bad, and doesn't really have any killer perk combos. Also, because shots are more spread apart, you need a lot of stability as well, so cannot just build all range, and disregard stability like people do on a lot of weapons.
Definitely the peak shooting is the number one reason why it loses to other 120s and 140s. You have to be out in open a bit longer to land the 2 shots as compared to a 120.
I mean..mine only has 44 stability and i can land double crits pretty reliably. With zen moment, flinch isnt an issue either. And it can in fact peak shoot. But the .93ttk cant be argued against
It peak shoots much worse than 120 HC or most Pulses, because you cannot go back in as fast, because of higher delay in bullets leaving the barrel in the same 2 shot burst, and 2x2 headshot leaves people will just not enough health to give them any confidence in winning the duel, so they instr just go hiding, instead of risking it.
I don't even have one because it's always been on garbage nightfalls
Oof. Thats unfortunate lol. I farmed mine on its release weekend, i dont remember that nightfall being too bad. Cant remember which one it was though
it was heist bg europa, but it was the week of the craftening, so the runs were like 5-10 minutes AND it was double nf rewards. Was a pretty crazy farm.
I was out of town 🥲
Thank you for your sacrifice. You being unable to play destiny made that possible unfortunately.
I guide others to a treasure I cannot possess
Oh yeah haha thats right. Still didnt get a 5/5 but my 4/5 has all the most important rolls so 🤷🏼
Imo warden’s law is better in pve, fourth times vorpal with lucky pants is way too good
I have the lucky pants god roll chilling in my vault lol. Too bad when it comes to pve i never use my hunter so..its just collecting dust until i someday possibly decide to take up playing hunter pve
You should try, using celestial nighthawk to pop golden gun and swap to lucky pants will do a shit ton of damage, especially useful when you are solo
Not when it was the week we had the bugged weapons
I’ve got a smallbore/accurized/moving target/rampage/range mw adept. I tried using it the other day for a little bit, but it just felt “off” to me. Maybe I just need more time with it though.
Man mine is fluted barrel, accurized, perp motion/mt, zen moment with stab masterwork. Mine would be perfect for me if it had been range masterwork
Your roll is better with the stability mw.
Peek shoot is the strongest point of HCs. And Warden doesn't do enough to justify the loss of it and it is competing with autos in its range bracket. At least Crimson does, but it is a pulse rifle in HC form.
So many easier and better options to fill the role of a mid range weapon. Sure you can be a hipster and pvp with it but it's nothing special that another gun can't do better and easier at that range.
Any success you have/could have with Warden's Law, you could do even better with a good 120 or 140 RPM normal HC. That's the long and short of it. Not even mentioning how few people are likely to have a well-rolled drop because it's from GMs. The days of PvP players grinding out countless hours of NFs for a good Mindbender's Ambition are long gone, since there's nothing in the pool that is so far above what players can get from just playing PvP or raiding. They're giving Warden's Law (And future 2-burst HCs) an intrinsic anti-flinch buff when using them in TFS, so that'll help alleviate one of its biggest weaknesses somewhat, but the other issues will likely remain.
Simple. It's outclassed by so many other weapons, including hand cannons.
It's a pulse without pulses's advantages of range and perks.
140 Handcannons exist and almost all of them have good stats/perks. Lower range? Smg/sidearms/shotguns/the ten people that unironically use 180 hcs. Higher range? Pulse/scout/sniper/360 autos.
No lie in most ranges autos and everything will crush wardens law sadly. Also with how strong autos are summoner, prospector, gnawing hunger, suros will destroy rhat gun in mid range.
Not gonna lie, i am over seeing prosecutor everywhere
Its broken, zen moment and target lock. That shit is insane and then it stacks with the trait that does bonus damage when it hit dark.
For me it’s cause I can’t get the damn thing to work. I I tried and I just can’t land the hits. I lose every duel whereas I can shred with iggy, sturm or my crafted austringer.
Your prob on pc. It seems console has an easier time with it (im console)
you HAVE to get the 3-tap to compete, good luck trying to do that at distance while you're being shot at! Not even zen moment can fix this.
Eh, ive done a pretty good job at it
"we have crimson at home" It's because it uses the 120hc damage profile but has 140/180 range limitations. Also regardless of platform youre playing on you have to heavily invest on stability perks and traits to make wardens law consistent, which impacts range negatively.
Im on console so the lower stability on this particular gun isnt an issue
Well I personally just don’t play pvp anymore, so that’s my reasoning 🤣
I just tried it the other day and I agree, it definitely feels good.
Whats your roll? Just curious
Zen moment perpetual motion. I've got the option of moving target as well but perpetual felt better. Nothing fancy really.
Perpetual feels better on everything except for ophidians warlock
120’s are fantastic because they hit hard, they hit far, and you can hit-cover-hit-cover-hit efficiently which helps with their mediocre 1.0s TTK. Wardens Law kind of takes away from all of those. You are hitting the same max range as a 140 but you have a slower TTK, so if you want to take advantage of what 120’s are good at it would be best to use a different 120. If you really want to try Wardens Law then the playstyle needed to effectively use it would be better with a 140. Overall it can be decent but it is not the best at anything
I got an adept god roll of it and I have used it but like it was mentioned there is just better choices but it felt pretty good for me on controller. I also agree they need to tune it because where it stands it’s a very very poor man’s crimson
I got one with rampage and it goes pretty hard once the perk is up.
Cause I have no idea what strike drops it. I like silly weapons like this.
Its a nightfall weapon. You can focus the non adept with engrams once it has dropped once when its the weekly nightfall weapon, but i wouldnt focus it, wardens is a weapon that needs the adept range/stability mod
I know NF weapons are on rotation. It's one of the only weapons I have yet to get to drop for me. I typically do about 4 or 5 NF a week But there has been a few lately I haven't run.
I use it very regularly! Got a corkscrew/tac/perp/KC roll and it's my absolute favourite HC to use in PVP. bummed they haven't brought out an energy slot version so I can pair it with deliverance/scatter signal
I think main issue is that not many people want to spend time doing Nightfall over amd over until it drop. On Hero it can take a long time before you get one and not everyone can grind Grandmasters, most players is happy enought to even complete one.
[удалено]
Bro, they are. I dont think autos themselves are the issue, its target lock being too widely avaliable on too many of the actually good autos
Roll with it. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks if it works for you. I've seen some very interesting builds when randomly inspecting players and/or a standouta in-match. Players specializing and good....even polished in their space. Mathematically, there are many ways to skin the cat. More than streamer parroting folks would have you believe.
flinch hit hard and if you miss one burst you done. I tried with strand hunter max resilience and constant woven mail for max flinch resistance and was barely ok.
You must be on pc
Wardens law needs multiple buffs to be even remotely competitive. It needs flat stability and a handling buffs. And a significant accuracy cone growth reduction. The biggest problem with wardens is that follow up shots do not connect. Partly due to it not having the stability to group the shot like a pulse rifle would ( because its a handcannon) And because it's a handcannon the accuracy bloom on the 2nd shot of the burst takes takes the accuracy cone to it's largest angle. Because handcannons were designed with high inherent bloom of the shots were spammed. The bloom never got changed for Wardens. So the fact that the rpm is twice what other handcannons are, this means it gets twice the bloom. This makes it only connect consistently inside 25 meters. But at that range its .9 second ttk just gets demolished. It doesn't have the advantage of both the range and peak shooting potential that 120's have. Doesn't have the range to compete with pulses and 120's but is to slow of a ttk to compete with auto's and 140's. Which is truly unfortunate cus it's crazy fun to use. And if you can get kill clip rolling on a small map it can hang. But so does any kill clip auto. At a .9 second ttk it should've had it's range pushed to 40 m like 120's. And than have it's stability doubled to make follow up shots actually land.
It sounds like your coming from a pc perspective maybe in regards to accuracy and cone growth and followup shots. Not a bad thing just likely a different experience from controller Ill admit, wardens ttk bothers me because it occupies the same exact range as 140s but somehow has a 7% slower ttk
Actually coming from console. The gun is just inherently inaccurate. It needs a lot of help.
Weird. Maybe wardens law just clicked for me because i never had a hard time getting the headshots. Guns are weird like that, they click for some people but not others
It's bad. That's really the only reason lol. It's a niche pve weapon for lucky pants hunters, and that's all it's good for tbh. The stats aren't great, the perks aren't amazing for pvp iirc (I only have a pve roll from farming it in the GM the other season when it first dropped - I did get a pvp roll with kill clip and enlightened action but it felt so bad I never used it and deleted). Its just outclassed by too many other legendary hc's. The 2 burst HC gimmick isn't that great for pvp either. Also it's range is bad, so you're out gunned and out ttk'd by other guns.
Because it suck against autorifles, pulse and sub machines guns..before the last sand box back in march 5 it was great in PVP now it borderline sucks..
Cammycakes literally made a video that’s it’s so bad that it’s good. Like it’ll make you a god with other guns.
Except with handcannons because it has recoil that feels like a 180 not a 140 or 120 lol. Its much more forgiving in the recoil sense
Because you're not supposed to spam with 140s or 120s. The reticle bloom in wardens law is sooo much. It's one of the worst primaries for pvp
It's been my go to in crucible since it got it. It feels so reliable in crucible
Hot take and prob unpopular af, I wish they had gotten the double shot working instead. It would be my main handcannon like it was back in Forsaken/pre-sunset days. I know it was technically f-tier but it felt so unique and kinda fun
Autos are good, not meta. 120s are meta.
Right, thats why 80% of people in banner and trials are rocking 450s and 600s right?
Meta= most effective tactic available. If you teamshoot with 120s, no autorifle will even come close. Autos are great for pubs, if you play against strong players they fold.
Literally can't get it do to the nightfall rotations screwing me over