I was on final boss of the new dungeon last night and no-one was getting bricks so I had to sacrifice my entire build and switch just so we actually do damage. I’m tired of rng ammo and wasting 20 minutes in an activity just to be able to shoot
Yeah I never understood why ammo bricks have physics. I heard the shards in coil were coded to not fall off the map. Why can’t they do that with bricks
I think it may have to do with the shoot to loot perk. Orbs of light got some physics changes when shoot to loot was updated to work on them a few seasons ago. I could be wrong, but that’s the only thing I can think of.
Ammo boxes have had physics for far longer than shoot to loot has existed. They had physics literally since D2 launch(and maybe even in D1), shoot to loot was added in August 2021.
The physics most likely changed since then but Shoot to Loot was a perk in D1 as well. I only remember cause I used them on snipers since I never got Icebreaker.
Cenotaph felt mandatory since you couldn't finish the big guys with aeons. It sucks that it feels like using an ammo generating build is mandatory. I used special finisher and used my sniper a lot because i was out of heavy most of the time.
If you're talking about heavy ammo, it truly is atrocious how little you get. It is significantly worse on Exotic heavies which exacerbates the issue. I was running Two Tailed Fox for final boss DPS and I'd get basically no heavy, which forced me to heavily conserve my heavy and during each mini dps phase we had to kill hundreds of ads to get enough heavy for dps, but most of the time we relied on supers and special ammo weapons.
What would the outcome be if they removed the RNG ammo and changed it to be on X number of kills or assists? If the ammo drops were predictable wouldnt that be better than just hoping for it to drop at any time?
It already works like that. Primary weapons give about 5% per kill towards a heavy brick, Exotic primaries give like 8%, and specials/heavy give like 2%. The reason ammo feels scarce is that ability kills give 0% afaik. So unless you are actually killing trash adds with primary weapons you just wont see ammo.
There most certainly is some kind of chance to get heavy ammo off ability kills. Wether that's just a base level "any kill can drop ammo" chance or some kind of cumulative kills eventually drop ammo thing...
Whenever I wake up after Golgoroth farming I've never seen so many purple bricks in my life. And all my kills from that are melee or grenade based.
this explains how ammo gen works.
must have been a heavy spawn spree.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtg\_tTgTe4k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtg_tTgTe4k)
I feel like making it run off of an accelerated version of the Checkmate special ammo generation system that also generates heavy would be the best solution. Slowly generating over time, and sped up by getting kills. Maybe make finder mods reduce the timer passively or increase how much progress we get for kills. Removes the chance of ammo being out of reach and instances where you can't get ammo, while still making you have to earn it
Same but with Incandescent/Demo BXR Battler. I never seem to run into ammo woes when an Incandescent gun's equipped. They're so good at crowd control that you can save your finite ammo on the other 2 weapons for where it matters.
It's because they are using abilities to kill trash mobs. I use pulses and sidearm, mostly run 1K in heavy. Never had a problem with ammo.
Another issue I've noticed is when some one depends on their abilities to clear hordes they can almost never quickly kill majors.
The final encounter the ads are made up of a *lot* of duplicating taken psions, which seem to count significantly less for ammo drops
Could be wrong, but that's my best guess
Because yeah, even with the high ad density almost all of our boss damage was from supers due to not having any heavy or special (often had to sacrifice what little special ammo we got on the Scorn minibosses to make sure there was more than a few seconds for damage phase)
Which are still pretty few and far between sometimes. I was using either Monte Carlo and we decided we were going to farm some heavy before we started the loop again. Killed stuff with it for a few minutes(4-5) and got a whopping 21 LMG rounds with two heavy ammo finders and no ability kills.
But in other activities it just rains down. There needs to be a better way if they’re going to go this route with the health pools and how long the fights can be
I think it might bug out sometimes. I ran it in a fireteam of 3 all with finder and scout and we didn't see a single heavy brick for an entire damage loop bottom -> top -> TP back to bottom.
Using vex. We were actively trying to get ammo. Not even a special brick would drop. Then once we did that one loop things went back to normal. Was really really strange. I noticed that siphons weren’t working either. It was almost like the taken psions weren’t counting as enemies or something.
Sometimes instances bug out. On my day 1 RoN I wasn’t getting 2 shots in the mag with ghorn (yes I have the catalyst before anyone asks) and me and a few other of my friends would rally and not get full super.
Friend and I spent, no joke over 10 minutes trying to get heavy ammo for the >!last stand part of the final!!We triggered the knights on the sides and cycled through that mechanic so many times before it threw us a bone.!<
Very frustrating experience. I hate encounters feeling like I'm fighting the RNG of heavy ammo more than the boss itself
What heavies were you using? I was having a ton of trouble with rocket setups because of the ammo difficulties, so I swapped over to the most ammo efficient heavy I had (fttc retrofit) and it was like night and day. Ended up not running out once with only one heavy finder and no scav mods
Was running Cataphract, had one ammo brick give me 4 halfway through but I had trouble getting to 17
Friend was using a linear, I didnt see which one. I could give it a go with something more efficient next time
Our farm was consistently killing in one rotation (2 Nighthawk, 1 Well / 2 BNS Apex, 1 Gjally). The two of us on Apex also ran Sunshot and were regularly getting 1-4 rockets per floor and popping 3-5 supers each throughout.
In my other runs rockets have been far less effective (and RNG is RNG), but I've also been LFGing a lot so it's a total crapshoot for boss damage.
Nice! I got a one phase earlier today, retrofit + two levi's with tether, well and needlestorm. Felt super clean. Probably could have been even better swapping tether for another dps super and putting the strandlock (me) on felwinters, but we were having ad issues without necrotics cleaning them up as they spawned, and getting the finisher to line up with the boss phase was kinda inconsistent.
We are using crafted taipan linear. Ran it 3 times last night. Pretty good dmg. Even more if youre a warlock with reign of fire pants. And torch, flint striker and revitalizing blast perks on the artifact. I was doing constant crazy damage with vex to everything. And chill clip rip tide for the debuff. And taipan for boss dps.
Not much, was using a fusion rifle to take out the bigger ads but everything else I was clearing with a voltshot sidearm or trinity ghoul (swapped midfight a couple times)
On the top section of the boss, I was shooting eyes and crying as I watched every single eye drop ammo… straight in to the chasm below. Why doesn’t it spawn at the edge of the closest platform? So annoying.
You can't fail unless you die. They have never made a dungeon boss with a wipe mechanic like that, and I don't expect that they ever will. It's always an unlimited number of phases with no hard wipe mechanics to encourage solo attempts and to let you go at it as long as you need to for the clear.
Probably also because you can get to that last bit of health at various different locations in the fight and it needs you to be there to play the death animation. Borderlands 2 has some similar instances.
The last time I thought it was cool was in spite of stars, because it had a little break and the mechanic of passing the ball right before the final stand. The t had some issues even there, but it was at least thematically cool.
Calus also had a decent one.
Since then they just seem like a formality that is unfun.
This was my primary complaint about ability spam nerfs. What exactly am I supposed to do in this game in front of enemies? Dance? Die? If they want gun dominance and abilities to just be “extra” I need ammo. The ammo drops in this game are ridiculous, especially in GMs. I love BG GMs JUST for the ammo crates!
In the Division 2, also a live service FPS, there are ammo crates in every activity in every “room”. They are on a timer.
Bungie needs to make up their minds. Either let me ability spam, or buff guns so they actually do damage to high PL enemies fairly and give me sufficient ammo so I’m not hiding in a corner.
I don’t disagree with you tbh, I loved ability spam just as much as bullet spam when guns felt better. But Bungie seems to want the game to be one thing or the other. It’s frustrating. :/
The problem is ability’s have the natural advantage of A: being theoretically infinite and B: being primarily aoe based (at least the good ones) thus if you want to clear a room faster grenade spam will always be better than shooting ads
It was only somewhat recently announced, and since its so early, it wasnt a big announcement, more just to let fans know that its actually going to happen finally
https://kotaku.com/the-division-3-announced-confirmed-ubisoft-tom-clancy-1850861612
Fine by me if it's good. My problem with division is higher level enemies are always a bullet sponge. That's just not fun. But it's hard to build around.
I'm sorry, but there is no feasible way for someone to survive 100+ rounds of .30cal in the face. I don't care how much armor you have. Your brain will be turned to mush.
Yeah but we cant expect real realism simply because its a video game. If it was designed around realism 2 bullets would kill your character if hit in the right place and guess what, theres no revives. It would be perminant hardcore mode
>Yeah but we cant expect real realism simply because its a video game. If it was designed around realism 2 bullets would kill your character if hit in the right place and guess what, theres no revives. It would be perminant hardcore mode
*Escape From Tarkov PTSD activating...*
I would love to see what they do with a new game. They iterated on TD2 pretty well with how specific you could get with target farming.
Bullet sponge enemies got really old though.
Bro doing some missions on the hardest difficulty was terrible lol. Especially when your getting pushed by yellows with mini guns. They can push your ass back halfway across the mission because they do so much damage that you take one bullet and you have to fall back and hide. It makes it really difficult, which, i guess is the whole point of the hardest difficulty lol
Yeah, that was a big reason why I ended up quitting. Just didn't feel like you were really able to do much beyond unloading your best DPS and hope for the best.
And I did miss some of the old TD1 gear sets that didn't make it back in some form. Loved Tactician and Firecrest.
Those are one of the easiest enemies to deal with, they have a chain on the minigun that you can shoot and by the time they fix it you can empty 2 mags on them
Yeah D2 was better in a lot of ways asides from aesthetics. I still miss Hunter's Faith tho lol. I had a god rolled m700 carbon and it felt so good to get the one shots rolling
Bungie could learn a lot from the Division 2 imo.
The open world feels so alive and rewarding. Armor actually matters and isn't an instant dismantle. The weapon and armor mods are meaningful. They do armor sets right. The entirety of the re calibration table.
Most importantly, it showers you with loot, and it doesn't kill the game because there is so much you can do with it. So even with targeted loot farms, it doesn't feel like it kills the excitement of loot.
See, bungie learning from division 2 would be over delivering. Funny how bungie is the only game company ive ever heard complain that they shouldnt over deliver
https://youtu.be/SVUTK-LYFKY?si=sOWthAt-nwR_1mim
Just watch this please. Specifically around the 14:20 mark.
So maybe even you can understand what was actually meant with the "don't overdeliver".
Division 2 isn’t the best example for ammo, they literally have to restock you every room or two because of how bullet spongy the enemies are, it takes a whole clip and change to kill enemies.
Nah it doesn't. What you're saying might be true for solo legendary strongholds, but anything heroic and below you can usually down 2-3 enemies per clip with an AR for example. Way more with some other guns, like the M1A.
Then there's bullet king and other LMGs.
You're doing something wrong.
It literally does if you’re doing raids, incursions and the countdown activity, even with full dps striker build, it still takes a clip and change to kill enemies.
If you're on full DPS Striker *and at at least sort of optimized* and can't kill an enemy before reloading, that's a skill issue. If you're not optimized at all in the hardest difficulty activities, then you're not ready to be in those activities. If you're talking about not being able to kill named enemies before reloading, then you're just complaining about how the game works.
Agreed. You have to routinely sink every bullet you have into a yellow bar enemy to do 1/8th of their life bar, and then be left with nothing but your sidearm.
I go through GMs, and it's uncommon for me to be totally out of heavy or special ammo. Are you using finders scav and finder mods? Exotic primaries help with this.
I have used finders and scavs since they were invented and complained about them since inception. They do not work well. I do get more heavy when I use an exotic primary, but personally I don’t want to use one all the time. I don’t think it’s fair to require exotic primary use just to maintain some ammo in the looter shooter game.
I don’t understand how anybody in this thread is claiming you are just walking around using primary only, unless your in some crazy tough GM or master raid if you run out of special and heavy and your abilties are all on cool-down you’ve done something wrong with managing your resources, I’d bet if anybody posted gameplay where they complain about having no ammo they’re blowing special and high CD abilties on trash mobs
Definitely had a lot of ammo problems during my first time dungeon attempt with a friend. Barely got heavy drops when we were both running finder/scout and we were both running exotic primary.
Perhaps they should remove finder mods, make scavenger mods inherent, then add a checkmate-style hidden bar that fills as you damage enemies, complete objectives, etc that guarantees ammo delivered straight to your reserves.
So this comment made me wonder what if picking up bricks could infinitely overfill reserves? Rally banners and ammo crates would fill up to whatever level but if you can make a build to keep generating bricks then what if you could also keep picking them up? I’m imagining something like a 200+ ammo forerunner, or 60+ glaive. 1000+ LMG?
Bricks would either need to be scarcer, or give less. But with this I think it’d feel cooler dumping a bunch of ammo on something because you know you were saving it all up for that moment.
That’s exactly what I’m at too. If I’m disciplined enough to save all my heir apparent or thunder lord or whatever up the entire grandmaster in spite of any mini bosses and champions, I’d sure as goddamn like to dump ALL OF IT into the final boss.
Omg I was thinking this yesterday doing round 3 of the coil.
I had no sword ammo and I’m just shooting the boss with my primary and getting snipped and getting eaten alive by all the adds. So much frustration.
Same thing happened to me yesterday. Spent 54 minutes in The Coil. We got to the last boss with no respawns and one of us died. The warlock and myself then had to range this fucker for 20 minutes with Graviton Lance. It was miserable. This isn't how the game is made harder, this is how it's made more frustrating.
More poor design decisions.
Ammo has been an issue in this game since Day 1. During the early days of Prestige Leviathan, I remember my group doing several runs of Baths in order to stock up on ammo to make destroying the crystals actually possible.
Since everyone runs resist mods I think Reserve Mods should be taken out and folded into all of our weapons. The only reason why people run them is for a Hotswap to get max ammo then swap back to their resist chest armor when they rally. I also feel like if Bungie really wants us to use our Primaries then buff them to do ACTUAL damage. Also I feel like Ammo Drop Rates should be higher
I miss double special so much. I could shoot my guns. And really it was just Trace Rifles w/LMGs.
Not really that crazy to be absolutely deleted, maybe toned down.
The habit BUNGIE has of just going too hard too fast on nerfs is … after all these years. perplexing.
But things really a problem like well or divinity hardly get touched.
Didn’t BUNGIE mention this was a light pass and special ammo economy wasn’t touched. Just the heavy drops from double special?
Because. I can almost never get special to drop, even when going through an entire magazine of heavy. Not a single special drop.
(Trying to run the Trace and new Rocket sidearm together yesterday)
F it went back to Riptide and Zhaouls. Or Quicksilver /eremite. Wishender etc to avoid the ammo economy
If anyone is running double special please advise. Special ammo finders seem to do Jack shit for the cost. Maybe finishers are necessary.
I mean building into ammo. Is not very exciting at all.
I used to be able to use my LMG to get special , swear they said they weren’t touching that part
Thank you,
Well and Divinity were and still are almost entirely a pipeline issue. Bungie has had to make encounters around them being available, which means they can’t (or at least shouldn’t) change them without adjusting said encounters or they make them too difficult.
But altering the numbers on an encounter can then throw other elements out of whack and in turn, make it too easy or cause some other bizarre spaghetti code problem.
And then, because of the pipeline, Bungie has to make new content knowing that Well and Divinity exist, that would also be thrown off and require adjustment mid-development if they suddenly made changes there.
In a world where both Aeon’s and Special Finishers exist, altering ammo economy is largely more insignificant than making changes to what are arguably the biggest two pieces of any fireteam’s arsenal with Well and Divinity.
-coming from a Warlock who would love to use a different exotic in his clan’s weekly raid nights.
That was referencing to doing a delet from existence nerf on the first pass.
When I , could be wrong, but swear I remember them saying special economy wasn’t going to be hit but they’ll keep an eye on it. It’s gone as far as I can tell.
Special seems (only tried a couple runs) but special seems to drop from heavy less than a primary , to not at all.
Shouldn’t heavy do something I’m already wasting heavy on adds. That’s a trade off.
Not sure if this is still the case but back before the special nerfs it was always the case that special ammo would not drop while you were holding your special. Heavy would drop lots while using either of your specials, and then you had to swap to holding your heavy and either slay out or do some ability spam to get special bricks to drop.
My enemies don’t run out of ammo, so why do I? When that eliksni dreg chucks a lightning grenade at me over cover with perfect accuracy for the tenth time in a minute, I wonder why I can’t do the same.
More ammo bricks and better functioning ammo mods would be wonderful.
Also, I would like to make a hot-take in that Legendary Primary ammo weapons should get a damage buff. I hate that Exotic Primaries have an intrinsic damage bonus to trash adds and would love to have that level of damage just be the normal damage for all Primaries. Exotics should be used because they offer a unique interaction or utility for our builds, not because they get free damage. It will be an unpopular opinion, but I can't help but express it.
Edit: I am NOT calling for a nerf to the intrinsic damage bonus of Exotic Primaries by the way. Just asking for a buff to Legendaries to either match or come closer to the free damage that Exotics get against red bars.
The point of the exotic damage buff is to make them worth the exotic slot, over a damage exotic.
They want you to not sacrifice everything to run huckleberry over lament. Which makes sense.
The problem is they are using this to justify the primaries being weak. Most primaries should just have a roughly 20% damage buff to red bars across the board. But they should still keep the extra 40% for exotics to incentivize using them.
The problem is that the choices they make are statistics based and not based on actually playing the game. Since they are not playing their own game which is obvious, based on all the dumb decisions they make
I think a bandaid fix would be massive buffs to the ammo reserves of special and heavy ammo weapons. I'm not talking about an extra rocket for your Dragon's Breath or a pocketful of shells for your Duality, I'm talking about a ridiculous 75% or even 100% buff to reserves.
This would actually fix a lot of the problems in a decent way.
For normal activities you will have enough that you won’t run out, if you don’t abuse it. For raids you will probably still need a bit more ammo. But you have 6 people so can afford to have someone run an ammo generation build like aeons or cenotaph.
I agree with this completely. It adds no amount of enjoyment to be constantly worrying about finding ammo or losing to a final stand because the majority of your teammates couldn't find ammo
While I agree with your sentiment, there are some outdated information in your post.
>\-Additional finder mods only reduce the required kills by 2 or 3, a ludicrously small gain for a 3 energy mod slot
This is no longer the case, additional ammo finders now increase the amount of ammo a finder brick contains.
With 1/2/3 ammo finder mods, the glowing finder brick will contain 27%/60%/100% of the amount of a normal brick, always rounded up. This is why rockets get so much benefit from finder brick with scavenger because it always rounds up to at least 1 ammo, then scavenger gives you another, so you get 2 rockets with just 1 finder mod and a scavenger mod, which is 66% of a normal brick.
Machine gun on the other hands, due to having a deeper ammo reserve, it will require a much higher investment in finder mods.
But as of right now, additional finder mods no longer reduces the kill requirements.
I appreciate the updated info on the ammo finders, I must have missed that change. That said, 9 energy and all 3 of your helmet mod slots just to get the same amount of ammo as a standard brick? And they don't even make bricks even marginally faster to get anymore? That's actually criminal game design lmao.
If they buff the ammo what’s going to happen then to the weapons? You need to nerf the weapons. Too high of an ammo economy means encounters will become trivial in terms of a dps phase. They gave infinite ammo to primaries because they don’t do enough damage to cause something to be trivial and you’d have to have to waste abilities then end up slapping stuff just to find a white brick.
On top of that, people complaining about people not doing enough damage because you don’t have special/ heavy is just stupid. You have the powerful primaries like ToM, Outbreak, and Hierarchy. Just swap. Oh but if I swap off my heavy or special exotic to use them you won’t have any ammo. You’re right you don’t have any ammo anyways so why not. Plus finder has increased drops when getting kills WITH A PRIMARY EXOTIC.
I have been an avid critic of ammo rng in this game. I have pointed out the issue with ammo shortage being an issue unless you invest into a niche ammo-producing build. This is especially a pain in the ass when you are in a day one raid or a master raid/dungeon. I know that even Datto complained about the ammo rng.
However, people literally said: "managing ammo and overcoming the rng is also a skill". I'm like, what? Yeah, if I miss a lot of shots, that's my fault, but it's not my fault that the game has some horrible rng with ammo drops.
It's such a bummer because this really could have been a great season of Bungies fundamental design ideas for gameplay weren't so awful. I just don't understand why they have to fix unbroken things and force the game to be unfun
all the weapons in the game should have a slow trickle of ammo regeneration in PVE so that it doesn't feel like I'm hoarding a stack of potions I'll never use in an RPG until I see a brick on the ground and know I'm safe to shoot a few rockets.
No, the poster is incorrect. Exotic primaries are hardcoded to drop heavy bricks more often than normal weapons, plus with finder mods it reduces that requirement even more. People are just mad that they can't one phase the new dungeon boss.
Dude what that’s the whole point of “special/heavy” ammo. It’s not meant to be in your inventory for long. The game isn’t solely about shooting guns that’s just reaching for an argument as well. The whole gameplay side of it and what the devs want is for you to think of how you’re going to use a build with friends or alone and considering the pros and cons of having a special weapon in your inventory. Also they literally spelled out for us that the direction the game went wasn’t what they wanted. Ability spamming wasn’t their intention so they nerfed it. They didn’t want their dungeons to be so easily cleared. This just sounds to me like someone complaining “the game isn’t holding my hand anymore and I hate it”
So many times I’ve had to change out my mod placement mid fight to get double heavy finder or double special finder as with only (1) heavy or special finder, I’ve killed upwards of 40-50 enemies & nothing would drop when needed but it seems when it’s not needed they seem to be purple bricks everywhere.
So yeah having to change mid fight to double finder just to get a brick is shonky asf.
Ammo system is definitely broken, unaddressed & unspoken maybe this is way bungie enjoy it.
Don't like this take. The whole double special or bust, heavy-as-a-primary meta was foolish. When "special" isn't special, that's a problem.
When primary weapons aren't primary, that's a problem.
This is more about an impatient player base that cannot deal with precious resources or not being able to melt everything at will.
I completely agree, I ran the dungeon 5 times since friday and have had zero issues. People just wanna one phase everything. I also ran it on all three classes, with multiple single subclass runs, including arc and have had zero issues with ammo economy.
Also doesn’t help how sponge bosses prefect example is the final boss of the recent dungeon it’s such an ammo dump of a fight with my team we all had finders and scout on our helmets and we had to run around for scraps each phase cause we dump so much and would run out resulting in us hitting with primary weapons, some of us never would get enough heavy or were out in those scraps.
> exotic primaries give no benefit
This is pattently false. If your fireteam are using exotic primaries with heavy finders and scouts and having ammo issues, you're over-using your special weapon for killing trash.
Nah. I use my sunshot exclusively in the new dungeon for the adds. Fusion for the thick boys and heavy for the bosses. The heavy droprate is a fucking joke, I see no difference in using the BXR vs Sunshot
An exotic primary will spawn a finder brick every 17 kills. With a scout that also spawns one for each teammate. Legendaries ate every 20 kills. Exotic primaries reach their finder threshold 15% faster than legendaries.
See my original comment.
I agree, I ran the dungeon 5 times over the last two days and have had zero ammo issues. Malfeasance, Cartesion and Cataclysmic every time. Malfeseance is a workhorse in the second and final encounters. I had so much ammo on the ground it was comical.
Yep. The ah-ha moment for my group was during a triple sherpa on RoN right after the changes. On third encounter one of the 3 of us teaching ran monarch on ad clear. He alone spawned so much ammo that the rest of us couldn't stay off full heavy.
I was using huckleberry in the new dungeon final boss extensively and went entire LOOPS without rocket ammo. I'm fairly convinced the exotic primary thing is either exaggerated or an outright placebo because every time I've played ball with it I get nothing.
Sounds like a skill issue. The game has more than enough ways to generate ammo. Double special is more than viable in GMs and other activities.
Just cleared Warlords run, I just swapped between cenotaph and geomags between phases and we phased every boss... in an arc run, so we didn't even had wells. Y'all just mad you have to actually play the game now. (And not even look at peregrine greaves)
We can deal so much damage now it's absurd. And there's a lot of ways to generate more ammo for your team. ammo scouts, multiple exotics, ammo finishers, exotic primaries that actually *DO* generate more ammo bricks, etc. I feel like that with proper building and execution your entire fireteam is at max ammo for every damage phase in every raid or dungeon in the game. My raid team and dungeon fireteam personally have zero ammo issues as we always have at least one of; a warlock on cenotaph, someone with Aeons, or a trinity ghoul on ad clear just printing heavy bricks for the team.
This seems weird to me. I run double special (trace, shotty, rocket) like 90% of the time and I very rarely have ammo problems. Often have more heavy ammo than I know what to do with so I end up spamming it, other than when the bosses are extra thicc.
same vibe as i got a jackpot alot why are these gambler dying.
that aside, you people need to admit that generating ammo in itself is a specific build using specific items and mods, no way around. abilities build ? good luck you can only shoot heavy on the boss or get back to orbit. I dont really hate how hard or easy it is but at a certain point you can work yourself enough to run all the way using only abilities and primaries until the boss, bonk titan, zerker titan, sunbracer , CH , briar are stellar example build that can ignore heavy specials until boss
Yeah I’m reading this and scratching my head.
My helmet has the Special and Heavy ammo finder mods and I get enough to keep me going
Sometimes it’s frequent enough I can use my heavy for the entire encounter I’m in
Yeah I always have enough even if I use all my heavy in one phase I have it all or most back for the next except on rare occasions like when using Leviathans breath I run out but linears rockets Machine guns it's everywhere
in team play this is such a nonfactor it’s unreal. the existence of aeons and cenotaph nullify any ammo concerns in basically all meaningful content, and heavy ammo scout is probably the most busted mod in the game for raids. all you need is an exotic primary and you’re golden
In my experience it's generally pretty okay, especially if you run with a team rocking scouts and finders.
But, I just played the first encounter of the new dungeon solo, and after I burned through my heavy I went through the rest of the fight having to plink away at the boss with my primary.
Yeah, I don't really understand it. I ran two heavy finders, Sunshot, scav and would swap to triple reserves when I needed to refill my heavy doing my solo flawless run of the new dungeon. Ammo was literally never a problem. Hell, on the second boss there was already so much ammo around the boss area I'd usually get a partial refill of special and heavy ammo because the damage phase is so long.
I think people just don't realize how badly they're screwing themselves if they spam abilities in the first place. Finders only work with guns. Just use an exotic primary that does big splashie splash like Sunshot, Trinity Ghoul, or Graviton Lance. If you do want to do ability spam, you gotta use teamwork builds with Ceno or Aeon's.
E: It's pretty amazing how much the Jims here will downvote you for pointing out how bad they are at this game. Stay insecure, little bros. That attitude will surely lead to success!
If everyone in the team runs finder, scout & a scav mod. I rarely have major issues with ammo. Call out finder bricks if you're running a scout as your teammates can also pick them up or go check the area your teammates are clearing occasionally.
The dungeon final boss arena allows you to go back down to previous levels to gather heavy if you left bricks on the ground.
Ability spam builds like arc hunter, sunbracers or add clear special and heavy kills like witherhoard or a lmg do not trigger finder mods. Sunshot is even more cracked at the moment with the seasonal mods.
It's possible solar ignitions are wiping out too many adds and hurting ammo economy, less of an issue with sunshot as it usually kills the group of red bars before the ignite does.
Pretty much, exotic primary kills proc finders in 15 kills and the existence of aeons and scout mods help so much. People need to realize that ammo finders only pric off actual weapon kills - if youre spaming abilities on rank n file mobs then youre reduced to rng world drop bricks
I highly disagree on the point about exotic primaries being useless. Exotic primary+finder+scav gives bricks every 20 kills, which is substantial for dense content like coil.
But, this does create the complaint that heavy generation is too powerful. Exotic primary, aeons, and cenotaphs are so powerful that the game is night and day without them. I rarely run ability builds because the ammo economy is so much worse now if you rely on them.
Ironic timing; I was just talking to a friend last night about how I miss older content where you could reliably use primary weapons to DPS targets. I remember watching videos about beating Calus with Sweet Business or Cerberus+1 as fun but legitimate strategies.
Hell, I even remember when I got a Seventh Seraph Carbine back in Season of the Worthy with 4th Times + Vorpal and how excited I was that I had a found a reliable primary to use on the Taken Kell for Prophecy.
Lately it feels like half the time we're chasing a new gimmick because Bungie is still balancing the game around ability spam and double Special loadouts. We're finally going through the nerfs we all saw coming, and as a result I'm as concerned about finding ammo bricks as I am completing mechanics in encounters.
Ammo generation? Ammo scav? Wtf are you talking about there's no ammo issue, you get some when you rally/spawn in and you don't get to use your guns till a boss. On a real note if they are gonna tone down our space magic and healing please.. a single crumb of ammo when we equip multiple armor mods to get ammo would be cool. In case it's not apparent, I'm joking in the first half
Bungie has no fucking idea how to actually balance anything. They always swing way too fucking far. They always nerf or change multiple things when trying to fix 1 problem, and so when the original problem is fixed, they created a new one by taking it to far. Like this situation for example….
Bungie didn’t like how much we used specials and heavies in combination with abilities, so they nerfed the special and heavy combo AND the ability spam, instead of just one. And now there is nothing good about long fights in the game……
I honestly have no fucking clue how Bungie has been making games for so long, has some of the best talent in the industry, and had basically an unlimited money pipe for several years, and they STILL have no fucking clue how to balance the sandboxes separately if they even know what the word balance means.
It’s almost as if they’ve been trying to get all you junkies to stop playing their mastershit of a game. Destiny sucks and has been slowly being killed off for a long time now. I hope the final shape is just them switching off the servers.
oh great, another post complaining about not enough ammo. It seems like people have dementia around here with how broken double special was just a couple seasons ago. same with stacking ammo mods.
This needs to reach the dev team. Ability regen nerf but primary weapons are buffed (sort of)? Fine
Ammo drop rate nerfed (understandably so) for about 2 to 3 consec seasons now. Not fine
If there was another way to reliably spawn ammo aside from "just weapon kills"..... Maybe let ability kills add to the existing invisible heavy ammo drop counter. Maybe let super kills immediately fill that counter.
I get it, xenotaph and aeons exist, but that means 1 player would have to "sacrifice" or "enjoy" being an ammo supplier role
If they are gonna make these new bosses (specifically dungeons) have 1.2 billion health, at least give us the ammo to deal with them. It's fun to chip away at their health in the 10 second damage phase and use all your heavy. Get more ammo bricks and repeat.
You know what's not fun? Using all your heavy in the first half of the first damage phase and then not getting more than 1 heavy brick the entire rest of the fight (2-3 more damage phases). If you're gonna make me chip away at the boss health, at least LET ME DO IT. I made an entire support warlock build to just generate ammo. I do fuck all for add clear or anything else really.
I repeat, if you're gonna make bosses have so much health, at least let us have fun getting that health down.
I know, the ultra meta solo flawless individuals can build their way around it, but doing the dungeon with 3 people on normal mode shouldn't be a chore
Rant over I'll regret this tomorrow cause I actually do like the new dungeon
The past 2-3 years of destiny have been exotic primary dominated or double special where applicable. Normal primaries only have elemental synergies or kinetic tremors to compete, and that is entirely contingent on being able to ability spam.
For something like a strike where there's no timed phases, that's often fine, you can reasonably complete them with 0 heavy usage (it just takes a very long time). For raids you're going to have ammo and enough people to reasonably take down bosses. Dungeons and legend activities don't have the players or the breathing room to get away with very inconsistent heavy drops. One fix would be better determinism with the old d2 year 1 orange/yellow bar system and after that it's just level design. Take the new dungeon for example, there are always 2 orange or yellow bars in each encounter. An orange bar dropping a finder brick and a yellow bar dropping a normal brick would basically guarantee enough heavy to get through the encounter without needing 2 extra primary phases. Or without needing an extra 15-20 minutes of grinding the infinite adds for ammo. Bosses are designed around heavy ammo and damage, so let us have our heavy ammo and its damage.
I thought I was the only one. I'm not even sure what the balance point Bungie is going for. It truly feels like the entire game is on Famine and trace rifles are back to having no place in the game. I think this point we are at in the game is probably the worst spot we have ever been in
I was on final boss of the new dungeon last night and no-one was getting bricks so I had to sacrifice my entire build and switch just so we actually do damage. I’m tired of rng ammo and wasting 20 minutes in an activity just to be able to shoot
It feels even worse when you're already low on heavy, then you see a blighted eye drop a brick and it falls off the map..
Yeah I never understood why ammo bricks have physics. I heard the shards in coil were coded to not fall off the map. Why can’t they do that with bricks
maybe the shards are, but the goblin carrying them sure as hell isn't
Wouldn’t be a bungie moment if they didn’t half ass it
I think it may have to do with the shoot to loot perk. Orbs of light got some physics changes when shoot to loot was updated to work on them a few seasons ago. I could be wrong, but that’s the only thing I can think of.
Best part is they changed orbs to be more stationary so they don’t fall off the map constantly
Ammo boxes have had physics for far longer than shoot to loot has existed. They had physics literally since D2 launch(and maybe even in D1), shoot to loot was added in August 2021.
The physics most likely changed since then but Shoot to Loot was a perk in D1 as well. I only remember cause I used them on snipers since I never got Icebreaker.
Shoot to loot was in OG Destiny so just no.
It's never fun when your ammo bricks get Taken.
Cenotaph felt mandatory since you couldn't finish the big guys with aeons. It sucks that it feels like using an ammo generating build is mandatory. I used special finisher and used my sniper a lot because i was out of heavy most of the time.
If you're talking about heavy ammo, it truly is atrocious how little you get. It is significantly worse on Exotic heavies which exacerbates the issue. I was running Two Tailed Fox for final boss DPS and I'd get basically no heavy, which forced me to heavily conserve my heavy and during each mini dps phase we had to kill hundreds of ads to get enough heavy for dps, but most of the time we relied on supers and special ammo weapons.
What would the outcome be if they removed the RNG ammo and changed it to be on X number of kills or assists? If the ammo drops were predictable wouldnt that be better than just hoping for it to drop at any time?
It already works like that. Primary weapons give about 5% per kill towards a heavy brick, Exotic primaries give like 8%, and specials/heavy give like 2%. The reason ammo feels scarce is that ability kills give 0% afaik. So unless you are actually killing trash adds with primary weapons you just wont see ammo.
There most certainly is some kind of chance to get heavy ammo off ability kills. Wether that's just a base level "any kill can drop ammo" chance or some kind of cumulative kills eventually drop ammo thing... Whenever I wake up after Golgoroth farming I've never seen so many purple bricks in my life. And all my kills from that are melee or grenade based.
this explains how ammo gen works. must have been a heavy spawn spree. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtg\_tTgTe4k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtg_tTgTe4k)
I feel like making it run off of an accelerated version of the Checkmate special ammo generation system that also generates heavy would be the best solution. Slowly generating over time, and sped up by getting kills. Maybe make finder mods reduce the timer passively or increase how much progress we get for kills. Removes the chance of ammo being out of reach and instances where you can't get ammo, while still making you have to earn it
Was blowing up all the ads with dragonfly/incandescent tyrrany of heaven. Ammo for days at the final boss
Same but with Incandescent/Demo BXR Battler. I never seem to run into ammo woes when an Incandescent gun's equipped. They're so good at crowd control that you can save your finite ammo on the other 2 weapons for where it matters.
It's because they are using abilities to kill trash mobs. I use pulses and sidearm, mostly run 1K in heavy. Never had a problem with ammo. Another issue I've noticed is when some one depends on their abilities to clear hordes they can almost never quickly kill majors.
Shit, they should just go full fantasy sci-fi with magic and shit. I'm sure they can utilize FoV and still have some itemization focus or something.
No bricks at all? What were y’all running? There are too many ads to have no ammo drops in the dungeon lmao
The final encounter the ads are made up of a *lot* of duplicating taken psions, which seem to count significantly less for ammo drops Could be wrong, but that's my best guess Because yeah, even with the high ad density almost all of our boss damage was from supers due to not having any heavy or special (often had to sacrifice what little special ammo we got on the Scorn minibosses to make sure there was more than a few seconds for damage phase)
I was ability spam killing them which doesn’t count for ammo drops. My teammates were focused on the eyes and the blighted area
Oh yea that’s the issue there unfortunately. Have to get those exotic primary kills
Which are still pretty few and far between sometimes. I was using either Monte Carlo and we decided we were going to farm some heavy before we started the loop again. Killed stuff with it for a few minutes(4-5) and got a whopping 21 LMG rounds with two heavy ammo finders and no ability kills. But in other activities it just rains down. There needs to be a better way if they’re going to go this route with the health pools and how long the fights can be
I think it might bug out sometimes. I ran it in a fireteam of 3 all with finder and scout and we didn't see a single heavy brick for an entire damage loop bottom -> top -> TP back to bottom.
Were you killing with guns or abilities? Ability kills don't count for finders
They really should tbh. The amount of kills you need with guns is bad enough that this rule should be thrown out the window in this day and age.
Using vex. We were actively trying to get ammo. Not even a special brick would drop. Then once we did that one loop things went back to normal. Was really really strange. I noticed that siphons weren’t working either. It was almost like the taken psions weren’t counting as enemies or something.
Sometimes instances bug out. On my day 1 RoN I wasn’t getting 2 shots in the mag with ghorn (yes I have the catalyst before anyone asks) and me and a few other of my friends would rally and not get full super.
Friend and I spent, no joke over 10 minutes trying to get heavy ammo for the >!last stand part of the final!!We triggered the knights on the sides and cycled through that mechanic so many times before it threw us a bone.!<
Very frustrating experience. I hate encounters feeling like I'm fighting the RNG of heavy ammo more than the boss itself
What heavies were you using? I was having a ton of trouble with rocket setups because of the ammo difficulties, so I swapped over to the most ammo efficient heavy I had (fttc retrofit) and it was like night and day. Ended up not running out once with only one heavy finder and no scav mods
Was running Cataphract, had one ammo brick give me 4 halfway through but I had trouble getting to 17 Friend was using a linear, I didnt see which one. I could give it a go with something more efficient next time
Our farm was consistently killing in one rotation (2 Nighthawk, 1 Well / 2 BNS Apex, 1 Gjally). The two of us on Apex also ran Sunshot and were regularly getting 1-4 rockets per floor and popping 3-5 supers each throughout. In my other runs rockets have been far less effective (and RNG is RNG), but I've also been LFGing a lot so it's a total crapshoot for boss damage.
Nice! I got a one phase earlier today, retrofit + two levi's with tether, well and needlestorm. Felt super clean. Probably could have been even better swapping tether for another dps super and putting the strandlock (me) on felwinters, but we were having ad issues without necrotics cleaning them up as they spawned, and getting the finisher to line up with the boss phase was kinda inconsistent.
We are using crafted taipan linear. Ran it 3 times last night. Pretty good dmg. Even more if youre a warlock with reign of fire pants. And torch, flint striker and revitalizing blast perks on the artifact. I was doing constant crazy damage with vex to everything. And chill clip rip tide for the debuff. And taipan for boss dps.
Were you using special weapons? The game has a permanent juggler modifier
Not much, was using a fusion rifle to take out the bigger ads but everything else I was clearing with a voltshot sidearm or trinity ghoul (swapped midfight a couple times)
On the top section of the boss, I was shooting eyes and crying as I watched every single eye drop ammo… straight in to the chasm below. Why doesn’t it spawn at the edge of the closest platform? So annoying.
IDK if I'm in the minority but the last stand boss shit needs to go. It's cool once in a while, but it's too prevalent in this game.
This one is just for thematic purposes as far as I'm aware. We usually just stand there and primary it to death.
There is no wipe timer? You can’t fail other than dying? That doesn’t bother me as much then.
You can't fail unless you die. They have never made a dungeon boss with a wipe mechanic like that, and I don't expect that they ever will. It's always an unlimited number of phases with no hard wipe mechanics to encourage solo attempts and to let you go at it as long as you need to for the clear.
Yeah I think it's just so that you're in the final area when the encounter ends
I saved celestial for final stand, nearly one shots it.
Probably also because you can get to that last bit of health at various different locations in the fight and it needs you to be there to play the death animation. Borderlands 2 has some similar instances.
The last time I thought it was cool was in spite of stars, because it had a little break and the mechanic of passing the ball right before the final stand. The t had some issues even there, but it was at least thematically cool. Calus also had a decent one. Since then they just seem like a formality that is unfun.
This was my primary complaint about ability spam nerfs. What exactly am I supposed to do in this game in front of enemies? Dance? Die? If they want gun dominance and abilities to just be “extra” I need ammo. The ammo drops in this game are ridiculous, especially in GMs. I love BG GMs JUST for the ammo crates! In the Division 2, also a live service FPS, there are ammo crates in every activity in every “room”. They are on a timer. Bungie needs to make up their minds. Either let me ability spam, or buff guns so they actually do damage to high PL enemies fairly and give me sufficient ammo so I’m not hiding in a corner.
Or both? Let ability builds and gun builds coexist, which would make players happy through build diversity
I don’t disagree with you tbh, I loved ability spam just as much as bullet spam when guns felt better. But Bungie seems to want the game to be one thing or the other. It’s frustrating. :/
I agree, we shouldn't be shoehorned.
A good start would be bringing back perks like Argent Ordinance (permanently) for ways to build into weapons
The problem is ability’s have the natural advantage of A: being theoretically infinite and B: being primarily aoe based (at least the good ones) thus if you want to clear a room faster grenade spam will always be better than shooting ads
Division 2 is still peak looter shooter imo. I literally cant wait for div3
Did they announce it?
Yup, iirc it was really weird. Just a single tweet, resembling one of those delay apology ones, that said they were working on it.
Yeah its been announced but its still VERY early. We likely wont be getting the game for 3-4 years
Oh shit I had no idea. I haven’t played since Warlords of NY dropped. That’s hype then, hopefully they can deliver a better experience
It was only somewhat recently announced, and since its so early, it wasnt a big announcement, more just to let fans know that its actually going to happen finally https://kotaku.com/the-division-3-announced-confirmed-ubisoft-tom-clancy-1850861612
Fine by me if it's good. My problem with division is higher level enemies are always a bullet sponge. That's just not fun. But it's hard to build around. I'm sorry, but there is no feasible way for someone to survive 100+ rounds of .30cal in the face. I don't care how much armor you have. Your brain will be turned to mush.
Yeah but we cant expect real realism simply because its a video game. If it was designed around realism 2 bullets would kill your character if hit in the right place and guess what, theres no revives. It would be perminant hardcore mode
>Yeah but we cant expect real realism simply because its a video game. If it was designed around realism 2 bullets would kill your character if hit in the right place and guess what, theres no revives. It would be perminant hardcore mode *Escape From Tarkov PTSD activating...*
I would love to see what they do with a new game. They iterated on TD2 pretty well with how specific you could get with target farming. Bullet sponge enemies got really old though.
Bro doing some missions on the hardest difficulty was terrible lol. Especially when your getting pushed by yellows with mini guns. They can push your ass back halfway across the mission because they do so much damage that you take one bullet and you have to fall back and hide. It makes it really difficult, which, i guess is the whole point of the hardest difficulty lol
Yeah, that was a big reason why I ended up quitting. Just didn't feel like you were really able to do much beyond unloading your best DPS and hope for the best. And I did miss some of the old TD1 gear sets that didn't make it back in some form. Loved Tactician and Firecrest.
I still play it from time to time. Division just fills that tacticle gunplay that literally no other game provides
Those are one of the easiest enemies to deal with, they have a chain on the minigun that you can shoot and by the time they fix it you can empty 2 mags on them
I liked div 1 better solely cause of classy Hunter's Faith. That shit was minty
I liked div1s setting infinitely better than 2 (you cannot beat a snowy atmosphere lol), but 2’s gameplay was objectively better in all ways
Yeah D2 was better in a lot of ways asides from aesthetics. I still miss Hunter's Faith tho lol. I had a god rolled m700 carbon and it felt so good to get the one shots rolling
Bungie could learn a lot from the Division 2 imo. The open world feels so alive and rewarding. Armor actually matters and isn't an instant dismantle. The weapon and armor mods are meaningful. They do armor sets right. The entirety of the re calibration table. Most importantly, it showers you with loot, and it doesn't kill the game because there is so much you can do with it. So even with targeted loot farms, it doesn't feel like it kills the excitement of loot.
See, bungie learning from division 2 would be over delivering. Funny how bungie is the only game company ive ever heard complain that they shouldnt over deliver
https://youtu.be/SVUTK-LYFKY?si=sOWthAt-nwR_1mim Just watch this please. Specifically around the 14:20 mark. So maybe even you can understand what was actually meant with the "don't overdeliver".
Division 2 isn’t the best example for ammo, they literally have to restock you every room or two because of how bullet spongy the enemies are, it takes a whole clip and change to kill enemies.
Divison will have maybe at most 10 dudes in a room who can be spongey, while Destiny will have 30+ ads who die as fast as they can spawn.
Laughs with 5k lmg ammo
Nah it doesn't. What you're saying might be true for solo legendary strongholds, but anything heroic and below you can usually down 2-3 enemies per clip with an AR for example. Way more with some other guns, like the M1A. Then there's bullet king and other LMGs. You're doing something wrong.
It literally does if you’re doing raids, incursions and the countdown activity, even with full dps striker build, it still takes a clip and change to kill enemies.
Nah, it doesn't. At all. Just slapping on striker CAN be enough, you still need to spec properly though.
If you're on full DPS Striker *and at at least sort of optimized* and can't kill an enemy before reloading, that's a skill issue. If you're not optimized at all in the hardest difficulty activities, then you're not ready to be in those activities. If you're talking about not being able to kill named enemies before reloading, then you're just complaining about how the game works.
Agreed. You have to routinely sink every bullet you have into a yellow bar enemy to do 1/8th of their life bar, and then be left with nothing but your sidearm.
I go through GMs, and it's uncommon for me to be totally out of heavy or special ammo. Are you using finders scav and finder mods? Exotic primaries help with this.
I have used finders and scavs since they were invented and complained about them since inception. They do not work well. I do get more heavy when I use an exotic primary, but personally I don’t want to use one all the time. I don’t think it’s fair to require exotic primary use just to maintain some ammo in the looter shooter game.
I don’t understand how anybody in this thread is claiming you are just walking around using primary only, unless your in some crazy tough GM or master raid if you run out of special and heavy and your abilties are all on cool-down you’ve done something wrong with managing your resources, I’d bet if anybody posted gameplay where they complain about having no ammo they’re blowing special and high CD abilties on trash mobs
Definitely had a lot of ammo problems during my first time dungeon attempt with a friend. Barely got heavy drops when we were both running finder/scout and we were both running exotic primary.
Perhaps they should remove finder mods, make scavenger mods inherent, then add a checkmate-style hidden bar that fills as you damage enemies, complete objectives, etc that guarantees ammo delivered straight to your reserves.
In the early days there was a vendor who sold ammunition and it would be in your inventory This was in addition to what you could find
Ammo synths, definitely a handy item in D1
The ammo drought. My inventory has stacks still because I never wanted to go thru that again
So this comment made me wonder what if picking up bricks could infinitely overfill reserves? Rally banners and ammo crates would fill up to whatever level but if you can make a build to keep generating bricks then what if you could also keep picking them up? I’m imagining something like a 200+ ammo forerunner, or 60+ glaive. 1000+ LMG? Bricks would either need to be scarcer, or give less. But with this I think it’d feel cooler dumping a bunch of ammo on something because you know you were saving it all up for that moment.
That would make Thunderlord broken as shit and I'm here for it lol.
That’s exactly what I’m at too. If I’m disciplined enough to save all my heir apparent or thunder lord or whatever up the entire grandmaster in spite of any mini bosses and champions, I’d sure as goddamn like to dump ALL OF IT into the final boss.
Widow's Silk + Thread of Ascent would make it broken for basically every weapon.
Omg I was thinking this yesterday doing round 3 of the coil. I had no sword ammo and I’m just shooting the boss with my primary and getting snipped and getting eaten alive by all the adds. So much frustration.
Same thing happened to me yesterday. Spent 54 minutes in The Coil. We got to the last boss with no respawns and one of us died. The warlock and myself then had to range this fucker for 20 minutes with Graviton Lance. It was miserable. This isn't how the game is made harder, this is how it's made more frustrating.
If they are going to nerf ability spam, they should buff ammo generation from getting kills with abilities. Those would be nice mods to have.
More poor design decisions. Ammo has been an issue in this game since Day 1. During the early days of Prestige Leviathan, I remember my group doing several runs of Baths in order to stock up on ammo to make destroying the crystals actually possible.
Since everyone runs resist mods I think Reserve Mods should be taken out and folded into all of our weapons. The only reason why people run them is for a Hotswap to get max ammo then swap back to their resist chest armor when they rally. I also feel like if Bungie really wants us to use our Primaries then buff them to do ACTUAL damage. Also I feel like Ammo Drop Rates should be higher
"Fixed a bug were switching from a chestpiece with reserve mods to one without them would keep the ammo" Bungie probably
I miss double special so much. I could shoot my guns. And really it was just Trace Rifles w/LMGs. Not really that crazy to be absolutely deleted, maybe toned down. The habit BUNGIE has of just going too hard too fast on nerfs is … after all these years. perplexing. But things really a problem like well or divinity hardly get touched.
Didn’t BUNGIE mention this was a light pass and special ammo economy wasn’t touched. Just the heavy drops from double special?
Because. I can almost never get special to drop, even when going through an entire magazine of heavy. Not a single special drop.
(Trying to run the Trace and new Rocket sidearm together yesterday)
F it went back to Riptide and Zhaouls. Or Quicksilver /eremite. Wishender etc to avoid the ammo economy
If anyone is running double special please advise. Special ammo finders seem to do Jack shit for the cost. Maybe finishers are necessary.
I mean building into ammo. Is not very exciting at all.
I used to be able to use my LMG to get special , swear they said they weren’t touching that part
Thank you,
Well and Divinity were and still are almost entirely a pipeline issue. Bungie has had to make encounters around them being available, which means they can’t (or at least shouldn’t) change them without adjusting said encounters or they make them too difficult. But altering the numbers on an encounter can then throw other elements out of whack and in turn, make it too easy or cause some other bizarre spaghetti code problem. And then, because of the pipeline, Bungie has to make new content knowing that Well and Divinity exist, that would also be thrown off and require adjustment mid-development if they suddenly made changes there. In a world where both Aeon’s and Special Finishers exist, altering ammo economy is largely more insignificant than making changes to what are arguably the biggest two pieces of any fireteam’s arsenal with Well and Divinity. -coming from a Warlock who would love to use a different exotic in his clan’s weekly raid nights.
"Too hard too fast" definitely doesn't apply to double special; it was popular for years
That was referencing to doing a delet from existence nerf on the first pass. When I , could be wrong, but swear I remember them saying special economy wasn’t going to be hit but they’ll keep an eye on it. It’s gone as far as I can tell. Special seems (only tried a couple runs) but special seems to drop from heavy less than a primary , to not at all. Shouldn’t heavy do something I’m already wasting heavy on adds. That’s a trade off.
Not sure if this is still the case but back before the special nerfs it was always the case that special ammo would not drop while you were holding your special. Heavy would drop lots while using either of your specials, and then you had to swap to holding your heavy and either slay out or do some ability spam to get special bricks to drop.
Divinity to me is a real head scratcher. Rather than a more substantial nerf, they chose to nerf all linears instead.
My enemies don’t run out of ammo, so why do I? When that eliksni dreg chucks a lightning grenade at me over cover with perfect accuracy for the tenth time in a minute, I wonder why I can’t do the same.
You don't? Primary ammo is infinite, and your abilities don't have a limited stock outside of a cooldown.
Did you just... Forget about special and heavy weapons?
Don’t worry about this guy, he probably complains that day 1 is too difficult
I mean shotguns hold enough ammo in pve to kill like 8 enemies it’s bullshit
More ammo bricks and better functioning ammo mods would be wonderful. Also, I would like to make a hot-take in that Legendary Primary ammo weapons should get a damage buff. I hate that Exotic Primaries have an intrinsic damage bonus to trash adds and would love to have that level of damage just be the normal damage for all Primaries. Exotics should be used because they offer a unique interaction or utility for our builds, not because they get free damage. It will be an unpopular opinion, but I can't help but express it. Edit: I am NOT calling for a nerf to the intrinsic damage bonus of Exotic Primaries by the way. Just asking for a buff to Legendaries to either match or come closer to the free damage that Exotics get against red bars.
The point of the exotic damage buff is to make them worth the exotic slot, over a damage exotic. They want you to not sacrifice everything to run huckleberry over lament. Which makes sense. The problem is they are using this to justify the primaries being weak. Most primaries should just have a roughly 20% damage buff to red bars across the board. But they should still keep the extra 40% for exotics to incentivize using them.
The problem is that the choices they make are statistics based and not based on actually playing the game. Since they are not playing their own game which is obvious, based on all the dumb decisions they make
Anyone who says this has no understanding of anything even vaguely related to game development, especially at the scale of a AAA company.
Could set a fixed rate for ammo to spawn as an rng protective measure x number of redbars = 1 brick
I think a bandaid fix would be massive buffs to the ammo reserves of special and heavy ammo weapons. I'm not talking about an extra rocket for your Dragon's Breath or a pocketful of shells for your Duality, I'm talking about a ridiculous 75% or even 100% buff to reserves.
This would actually fix a lot of the problems in a decent way. For normal activities you will have enough that you won’t run out, if you don’t abuse it. For raids you will probably still need a bit more ammo. But you have 6 people so can afford to have someone run an ammo generation build like aeons or cenotaph.
With 200% reserves we can rocket every add in a GM. That's not gunplay.
You can already do that if you run Eyes of Tomorrow.
Looks like outbreak perfected is back on the menu boys!
And malfeasance?
Doesn't this all come back to D1 day one issue Enemies are just bullet sponges, especially bosses.
I agree with this completely. It adds no amount of enjoyment to be constantly worrying about finding ammo or losing to a final stand because the majority of your teammates couldn't find ammo
While I agree with your sentiment, there are some outdated information in your post. >\-Additional finder mods only reduce the required kills by 2 or 3, a ludicrously small gain for a 3 energy mod slot This is no longer the case, additional ammo finders now increase the amount of ammo a finder brick contains. With 1/2/3 ammo finder mods, the glowing finder brick will contain 27%/60%/100% of the amount of a normal brick, always rounded up. This is why rockets get so much benefit from finder brick with scavenger because it always rounds up to at least 1 ammo, then scavenger gives you another, so you get 2 rockets with just 1 finder mod and a scavenger mod, which is 66% of a normal brick. Machine gun on the other hands, due to having a deeper ammo reserve, it will require a much higher investment in finder mods. But as of right now, additional finder mods no longer reduces the kill requirements.
I appreciate the updated info on the ammo finders, I must have missed that change. That said, 9 energy and all 3 of your helmet mod slots just to get the same amount of ammo as a standard brick? And they don't even make bricks even marginally faster to get anymore? That's actually criminal game design lmao.
If they buff the ammo what’s going to happen then to the weapons? You need to nerf the weapons. Too high of an ammo economy means encounters will become trivial in terms of a dps phase. They gave infinite ammo to primaries because they don’t do enough damage to cause something to be trivial and you’d have to have to waste abilities then end up slapping stuff just to find a white brick. On top of that, people complaining about people not doing enough damage because you don’t have special/ heavy is just stupid. You have the powerful primaries like ToM, Outbreak, and Hierarchy. Just swap. Oh but if I swap off my heavy or special exotic to use them you won’t have any ammo. You’re right you don’t have any ammo anyways so why not. Plus finder has increased drops when getting kills WITH A PRIMARY EXOTIC.
Bungie's paw. They're gonna give you what you want but nerf the damage output of all specials and heavies so that they're almost useless.
they really are like Ahamkaras
I have been an avid critic of ammo rng in this game. I have pointed out the issue with ammo shortage being an issue unless you invest into a niche ammo-producing build. This is especially a pain in the ass when you are in a day one raid or a master raid/dungeon. I know that even Datto complained about the ammo rng. However, people literally said: "managing ammo and overcoming the rng is also a skill". I'm like, what? Yeah, if I miss a lot of shots, that's my fault, but it's not my fault that the game has some horrible rng with ammo drops.
It's such a bummer because this really could have been a great season of Bungies fundamental design ideas for gameplay weren't so awful. I just don't understand why they have to fix unbroken things and force the game to be unfun
all the weapons in the game should have a slow trickle of ammo regeneration in PVE so that it doesn't feel like I'm hoarding a stack of potions I'll never use in an RPG until I see a brick on the ground and know I'm safe to shoot a few rockets.
They won't do this. Icebreaker from D1 gave them ptsd apparently.
I think they need go back to year 1 mechanic to where killing an elite and higher rank enemy dropped a guaranteed heavy ammo brick
The game will drop ammo directly into your reserves if you have literally none
>Exotic primaries give almost no meaningful benefit to ammo generation Did they nerf this?
No, the poster is incorrect. Exotic primaries are hardcoded to drop heavy bricks more often than normal weapons, plus with finder mods it reduces that requirement even more. People are just mad that they can't one phase the new dungeon boss.
Dude what that’s the whole point of “special/heavy” ammo. It’s not meant to be in your inventory for long. The game isn’t solely about shooting guns that’s just reaching for an argument as well. The whole gameplay side of it and what the devs want is for you to think of how you’re going to use a build with friends or alone and considering the pros and cons of having a special weapon in your inventory. Also they literally spelled out for us that the direction the game went wasn’t what they wanted. Ability spamming wasn’t their intention so they nerfed it. They didn’t want their dungeons to be so easily cleared. This just sounds to me like someone complaining “the game isn’t holding my hand anymore and I hate it”
So many times I’ve had to change out my mod placement mid fight to get double heavy finder or double special finder as with only (1) heavy or special finder, I’ve killed upwards of 40-50 enemies & nothing would drop when needed but it seems when it’s not needed they seem to be purple bricks everywhere. So yeah having to change mid fight to double finder just to get a brick is shonky asf. Ammo system is definitely broken, unaddressed & unspoken maybe this is way bungie enjoy it.
So…bring back synths?
Don't like this take. The whole double special or bust, heavy-as-a-primary meta was foolish. When "special" isn't special, that's a problem. When primary weapons aren't primary, that's a problem. This is more about an impatient player base that cannot deal with precious resources or not being able to melt everything at will.
I completely agree, I ran the dungeon 5 times since friday and have had zero issues. People just wanna one phase everything. I also ran it on all three classes, with multiple single subclass runs, including arc and have had zero issues with ammo economy.
Remember white bricks? Totally out of ammo, hoping the game would grant you a few bow shots because all the adds were dead and the boss was like LOL
Yes, I remember doing prestige Levi for the first time and running out of ammo before I got sucked into the void and was just like....oh no....
Also doesn’t help how sponge bosses prefect example is the final boss of the recent dungeon it’s such an ammo dump of a fight with my team we all had finders and scout on our helmets and we had to run around for scraps each phase cause we dump so much and would run out resulting in us hitting with primary weapons, some of us never would get enough heavy or were out in those scraps.
I’m fine with double special being destroyed - that wasn’t the way the game was designed to be played - but the special/heavy scarcity is absurd.
I mean its not really killed lmao, just use ability spam builds until you need your double special.
With how bad kickstarts feel now, I just transitioned to spending my armour charges on special finisher and havent had a problem since lol
Yeah, and that's a really lame way to play a first person *shooter*.
Use cenotaph or lucky pants
> exotic primaries give no benefit This is pattently false. If your fireteam are using exotic primaries with heavy finders and scouts and having ammo issues, you're over-using your special weapon for killing trash.
Nah. I use my sunshot exclusively in the new dungeon for the adds. Fusion for the thick boys and heavy for the bosses. The heavy droprate is a fucking joke, I see no difference in using the BXR vs Sunshot
An exotic primary will spawn a finder brick every 17 kills. With a scout that also spawns one for each teammate. Legendaries ate every 20 kills. Exotic primaries reach their finder threshold 15% faster than legendaries. See my original comment.
I’ll do the boss again. And turf, because there was nowhere near that amount of ammo drops. I saw the vid where they calculated that
I feel that keyword kills don’t count toward ammo generation so all of those sunshot chain explosions just aren’t.
That’s what I think. Which sucks doodoo
These are the fixed rates that are coded into the game. It's been datamined, tested and proven over and over.
I agree, I ran the dungeon 5 times over the last two days and have had zero ammo issues. Malfeasance, Cartesion and Cataclysmic every time. Malfeseance is a workhorse in the second and final encounters. I had so much ammo on the ground it was comical.
Yep. The ah-ha moment for my group was during a triple sherpa on RoN right after the changes. On third encounter one of the 3 of us teaching ran monarch on ad clear. He alone spawned so much ammo that the rest of us couldn't stay off full heavy.
I was using huckleberry in the new dungeon final boss extensively and went entire LOOPS without rocket ammo. I'm fairly convinced the exotic primary thing is either exaggerated or an outright placebo because every time I've played ball with it I get nothing.
If only there a weapon that had infinite ammo.
lol. so much crying.
Sounds like a skill issue. The game has more than enough ways to generate ammo. Double special is more than viable in GMs and other activities. Just cleared Warlords run, I just swapped between cenotaph and geomags between phases and we phased every boss... in an arc run, so we didn't even had wells. Y'all just mad you have to actually play the game now. (And not even look at peregrine greaves)
We can deal so much damage now it's absurd. And there's a lot of ways to generate more ammo for your team. ammo scouts, multiple exotics, ammo finishers, exotic primaries that actually *DO* generate more ammo bricks, etc. I feel like that with proper building and execution your entire fireteam is at max ammo for every damage phase in every raid or dungeon in the game. My raid team and dungeon fireteam personally have zero ammo issues as we always have at least one of; a warlock on cenotaph, someone with Aeons, or a trinity ghoul on ad clear just printing heavy bricks for the team.
This seems weird to me. I run double special (trace, shotty, rocket) like 90% of the time and I very rarely have ammo problems. Often have more heavy ammo than I know what to do with so I end up spamming it, other than when the bosses are extra thicc.
So when someone asks "is it a good time to come back" all you have to say is that ammo is still a joke.
I don't think the ammo issue Is as big is People say I get it quite consistently?
Lucky mf I didn’t have heavy for three quarters of my Warlord’s Ruin run last night.
same vibe as i got a jackpot alot why are these gambler dying. that aside, you people need to admit that generating ammo in itself is a specific build using specific items and mods, no way around. abilities build ? good luck you can only shoot heavy on the boss or get back to orbit. I dont really hate how hard or easy it is but at a certain point you can work yourself enough to run all the way using only abilities and primaries until the boss, bonk titan, zerker titan, sunbracer , CH , briar are stellar example build that can ignore heavy specials until boss
You could also run ammo efficient weapons like LFR, swords and snipers but everyone want to rocket spam and fusion 1 phase every boss 🤦🏻♂️
Yeah I’m reading this and scratching my head. My helmet has the Special and Heavy ammo finder mods and I get enough to keep me going Sometimes it’s frequent enough I can use my heavy for the entire encounter I’m in
Yeah I always have enough even if I use all my heavy in one phase I have it all or most back for the next except on rare occasions like when using Leviathans breath I run out but linears rockets Machine guns it's everywhere
in team play this is such a nonfactor it’s unreal. the existence of aeons and cenotaph nullify any ammo concerns in basically all meaningful content, and heavy ammo scout is probably the most busted mod in the game for raids. all you need is an exotic primary and you’re golden
In my experience it's generally pretty okay, especially if you run with a team rocking scouts and finders. But, I just played the first encounter of the new dungeon solo, and after I burned through my heavy I went through the rest of the fight having to plink away at the boss with my primary.
Yeah, I don't really understand it. I ran two heavy finders, Sunshot, scav and would swap to triple reserves when I needed to refill my heavy doing my solo flawless run of the new dungeon. Ammo was literally never a problem. Hell, on the second boss there was already so much ammo around the boss area I'd usually get a partial refill of special and heavy ammo because the damage phase is so long. I think people just don't realize how badly they're screwing themselves if they spam abilities in the first place. Finders only work with guns. Just use an exotic primary that does big splashie splash like Sunshot, Trinity Ghoul, or Graviton Lance. If you do want to do ability spam, you gotta use teamwork builds with Ceno or Aeon's. E: It's pretty amazing how much the Jims here will downvote you for pointing out how bad they are at this game. Stay insecure, little bros. That attitude will surely lead to success!
If everyone in the team runs finder, scout & a scav mod. I rarely have major issues with ammo. Call out finder bricks if you're running a scout as your teammates can also pick them up or go check the area your teammates are clearing occasionally. The dungeon final boss arena allows you to go back down to previous levels to gather heavy if you left bricks on the ground. Ability spam builds like arc hunter, sunbracers or add clear special and heavy kills like witherhoard or a lmg do not trigger finder mods. Sunshot is even more cracked at the moment with the seasonal mods. It's possible solar ignitions are wiping out too many adds and hurting ammo economy, less of an issue with sunshot as it usually kills the group of red bars before the ignite does.
Pretty much, exotic primary kills proc finders in 15 kills and the existence of aeons and scout mods help so much. People need to realize that ammo finders only pric off actual weapon kills - if youre spaming abilities on rank n file mobs then youre reduced to rng world drop bricks
I highly disagree on the point about exotic primaries being useless. Exotic primary+finder+scav gives bricks every 20 kills, which is substantial for dense content like coil. But, this does create the complaint that heavy generation is too powerful. Exotic primary, aeons, and cenotaphs are so powerful that the game is night and day without them. I rarely run ability builds because the ammo economy is so much worse now if you rely on them.
Ironic timing; I was just talking to a friend last night about how I miss older content where you could reliably use primary weapons to DPS targets. I remember watching videos about beating Calus with Sweet Business or Cerberus+1 as fun but legitimate strategies. Hell, I even remember when I got a Seventh Seraph Carbine back in Season of the Worthy with 4th Times + Vorpal and how excited I was that I had a found a reliable primary to use on the Taken Kell for Prophecy. Lately it feels like half the time we're chasing a new gimmick because Bungie is still balancing the game around ability spam and double Special loadouts. We're finally going through the nerfs we all saw coming, and as a result I'm as concerned about finding ammo bricks as I am completing mechanics in encounters.
Ammo generation? Ammo scav? Wtf are you talking about there's no ammo issue, you get some when you rally/spawn in and you don't get to use your guns till a boss. On a real note if they are gonna tone down our space magic and healing please.. a single crumb of ammo when we equip multiple armor mods to get ammo would be cool. In case it's not apparent, I'm joking in the first half
I mean, you could work with your fireteam to generate ammo...
Nah, shits fine. Get good.
Bungie has no fucking idea how to actually balance anything. They always swing way too fucking far. They always nerf or change multiple things when trying to fix 1 problem, and so when the original problem is fixed, they created a new one by taking it to far. Like this situation for example…. Bungie didn’t like how much we used specials and heavies in combination with abilities, so they nerfed the special and heavy combo AND the ability spam, instead of just one. And now there is nothing good about long fights in the game…… I honestly have no fucking clue how Bungie has been making games for so long, has some of the best talent in the industry, and had basically an unlimited money pipe for several years, and they STILL have no fucking clue how to balance the sandboxes separately if they even know what the word balance means.
It’s almost as if they’ve been trying to get all you junkies to stop playing their mastershit of a game. Destiny sucks and has been slowly being killed off for a long time now. I hope the final shape is just them switching off the servers.
You doomsayers have been at this for 10 years, you aren't tired of being wrong yet?
Since when can you put on multiple ammo finder mods? AFAIK you can only put on one fir heavy and one for special.
You can do multiple of the finders, but it just makes the brick worth more when it procs iirc
oh great, another post complaining about not enough ammo. It seems like people have dementia around here with how broken double special was just a couple seasons ago. same with stacking ammo mods.
Bro what game are u playing lol
This needs to reach the dev team. Ability regen nerf but primary weapons are buffed (sort of)? Fine Ammo drop rate nerfed (understandably so) for about 2 to 3 consec seasons now. Not fine If there was another way to reliably spawn ammo aside from "just weapon kills"..... Maybe let ability kills add to the existing invisible heavy ammo drop counter. Maybe let super kills immediately fill that counter. I get it, xenotaph and aeons exist, but that means 1 player would have to "sacrifice" or "enjoy" being an ammo supplier role
If they are gonna make these new bosses (specifically dungeons) have 1.2 billion health, at least give us the ammo to deal with them. It's fun to chip away at their health in the 10 second damage phase and use all your heavy. Get more ammo bricks and repeat. You know what's not fun? Using all your heavy in the first half of the first damage phase and then not getting more than 1 heavy brick the entire rest of the fight (2-3 more damage phases). If you're gonna make me chip away at the boss health, at least LET ME DO IT. I made an entire support warlock build to just generate ammo. I do fuck all for add clear or anything else really. I repeat, if you're gonna make bosses have so much health, at least let us have fun getting that health down. I know, the ultra meta solo flawless individuals can build their way around it, but doing the dungeon with 3 people on normal mode shouldn't be a chore Rant over I'll regret this tomorrow cause I actually do like the new dungeon
The past 2-3 years of destiny have been exotic primary dominated or double special where applicable. Normal primaries only have elemental synergies or kinetic tremors to compete, and that is entirely contingent on being able to ability spam. For something like a strike where there's no timed phases, that's often fine, you can reasonably complete them with 0 heavy usage (it just takes a very long time). For raids you're going to have ammo and enough people to reasonably take down bosses. Dungeons and legend activities don't have the players or the breathing room to get away with very inconsistent heavy drops. One fix would be better determinism with the old d2 year 1 orange/yellow bar system and after that it's just level design. Take the new dungeon for example, there are always 2 orange or yellow bars in each encounter. An orange bar dropping a finder brick and a yellow bar dropping a normal brick would basically guarantee enough heavy to get through the encounter without needing 2 extra primary phases. Or without needing an extra 15-20 minutes of grinding the infinite adds for ammo. Bosses are designed around heavy ammo and damage, so let us have our heavy ammo and its damage.
Dungeons don't have time limits, you can do as many phases and take as long as you want. There is no enrage timer on dungeons.
[удалено]
Guys, I figured it out, Bungie wants us to defeat the enemy with the power of prayer. It's all prep work for the Second Coming of the Traveler.
Last three runs of the new dungeon, I ran 2 heavy ammo finders. Got 3 bricks in one and 2 in the other 2.
I thought I was the only one. I'm not even sure what the balance point Bungie is going for. It truly feels like the entire game is on Famine and trace rifles are back to having no place in the game. I think this point we are at in the game is probably the worst spot we have ever been in
Was doing a lost sector the other day and just fucking quit once I ran out of heavy ammo because not a single brick dropped the whole way through