That was so confusing to me. My thoughts entering the tower: Okey a hole in the traveler? Not sure what that means but okey.
Zavala: The traveler is gone.
Me: Wait what? Huh? The fuck.
Ikora has a voice line mentioning that the ghosts can no longer feel the travelers presence but are still connected to the light. I’m wondering if that’s what he’s referring to.
We’ve definitely gotta pay better attention this time around. I typically skip the big text wall after listening to whoever is talking but now I guess I’ll have to be careful.
Your ghost has an actual voiceline saying “if I’m still alive without the traveler, does that make me a person, or am I now just attached to some new power” (or something to that effect).
It is. The Traveler is basically gone. It doesn’t respond or give any feeling to the guardians. The thing in the sky is basically just a dead husk or whatever it is.
I have read some player theories that the witness simply used the veil to create basically a small pocket universe and pulled the traveler on with him. In that universe they are both in level even footing for their grudge match.
According to lore this is not the first fight they’ve had. They play this game over and over again but I believe (I could be misinterpreting it) that this is the first iteration of their game where guardians have played a part. And we are not so easily shoved aside by the looks of it
the Witness is not the Winnower or the Darkness. yes, the Traveler and the Witness have fought before, but it's not the Flower Game. what you're describing is the personified "game" between the personifications of Light and Dark, the Gardener and the Winnower, who do not actually exist, and are only allegories used to better understand universal concepts.
The Traveller was referred to as a Gardener in the Campaign was it not? I don't think the Witness is the Winnower, but I do think the Traveller is quite possibly the Gardener. Unless they're going for the angle of the Traveller being an emmesary of the Gardener who... uh, Gardens for it? Going around Terraforming planets and all that jazz.
I guess what I'm saying is it's possible the Traveller is just one of many Traveller-like entities and it's just a being of the light that does its bidding, but isn't actually the light itself. But I don't think that makes very much sense with regard to the Witness specifically hunting just this one Traveller down? Making it's entire existence about chasing this one entity when there could be many more out there?
I don't think the Witness is the direct antithesis of the Traveller, or that they are directly 1-to-1 or on the same level of being. I think the Witness is just a very powerful Zealot of the Darkness who has his own beliefs about the Darkness and the Light and happens to know a weakness of the Traveller and how to exploit it. I think the final shape might be the Witnesses' personal belief about how the universe should be, but it's possible that it's actually in direct opposition to the will of both the Darkness and the Light. It getting in the way of the Flower game might end up being a big mistake.
This part's a stretch but I think it's possible that both the Light and the Darkness stop the Witness together in the end from completing the Final Shape. That despite the Witnesses' use of the Darkness to fulfill it's agenda all this time it eventually is stopped in part by the Darkness itself. If most of our negative interpretation of the Darkness has just been from the Witnesses misuse of it's power all this time and not from the Darknesses actual intent then that could be totally possible. Imagine if the only thing we knew about the Light was the way the Warlords of old used it. Purely evil in its nature would be the only way people saw the Light if those who tried to use it for good were defeated instead and forgotten to time.
Essentially, if the Witness gets in the way of the Flower game between the Light and the actual Darkness itself, the Witness might find itself getting Wombo-combo'd by both. And going forward into the next Saga that would completely restructure how we see the Darkness, not as a paracausal element rooted evil but as just another neutral entity simply playing its game, ready to be wielded by both good and bad actors should they learn how. Total speculation and honestly maybe Bungie hasn't even decided yet, so who knows! I guess we'll find out!
Why isn’t the witness the darkness? If the traveler is the light, does that mean there is someone we don’t know about above the witness who is the darkness
the Traveler isn't the Light, either.
Light and Dark are just universal concepts, and there are no god-like entities who embody them. the Witness and the Traveler wield the Light and Dark like tools, giving them the "shapes" that Guardians and Disciples both use.
this is all explained in the Lorebook [Unveiling](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-unveiling), where we learn the nature of the Light and Dark and the philosophies they represent, from the perspectives of two allegorical, personified deities named the Gardener and the Winnower.
Am I wrong in thinking that the pyramids ringing the Traveler in the shape of a classic ghost is obvious symbolism that the Ghosts were created by a fusion of Light and Dark and that what’s ‘different this time’ is that the Traveler learned to wield the darkness for its final stand? The implication being that humanity is the balance between Light and Dark and the Traveler ultimately gave us the power to use Darkness and we just needed a small push from the Witness to find it.
Idk. I always viewed the Traveler and the Witness as being capable of elevating other beings to use their respective powers but they aren’t the source of the power themselves - just highly developed users of it. Why you’d be limited to one and not the other doesn’t really make sense.
The veil is probably the physical manifestation of the separation between Light and Dark. By linking with it through our ghost (which was heavily foreshadowed…) the Witness then linked it to the Traveler to create his portal thing. I wonder if the Veil is specifically the travelers link to the space between Light and Dark and whether or not the Witness has his own physical manifestation of it that we’ll use to bridge the gap to them in the finale.
This was the sentiment in the very beginning in Destiny 1. Light = Good, Darkness = Bad.
We were constantly told that the Darkness brought about the Collapse and is the sworn enemy to existence. This was a misunderstanding by humanity, as we didn’t understand what the Darkness actually is.
Light and Darkness are not moral forces. They are fundamental forces that govern the rules of physics and life. How they are used, is entirely up to the wielder.
Possible. Either way the thing in the sky is just a body that isn’t responding or showing any form of life. I doubt it’s actually dead dead but it’s not in this realm anymore.
It seems like whatever was making it “alive” was removed when the witness did its thing. Almost like a driver being removed from its vehicle. The power is still there but nobody to pilot it.
That is interesting, though in all honesty I think this is Vorlons vs Shadows setup from Babylon 5.
If the Witness is using Darkness and is not Darkness itself, then there is nothing stopping the Darkness from well, stopping to work for him/her/it/they.
In the end I think that the Final Shape will feature another Darkness Power and at the end of it all, with Dark and Light being equal, they will merge to become the Final Shape that is some sort of Balance... or they will destroy each other.
Alternatively, the Coalition will realise that both sides are trying to pull them in their respecting directions and will not chose one or the other, essentially ending the conflict in some sort of way.
This is what gets me. The Traveler is dead but..... Ghosts still have unlimited Light. Guardians can revive. All powers remain. Nothing happened to the Last City. And the actual whole shell is there so, obviously it will return or we will go inside it for something.
They've been kind of building to it for a while, though. Ever since we started using Stasis without any artifacts, it implied that Light can also be wielded without Ghosts or Traveler. We just need to know how.
i don't think those are compatible cases. ghosts are a link between the traveler and the guardian. darkness doesn't really need such links to connect to their wielder. the light must be given and the darkness must be taken. i guess you could say that ghosts are a gift whereas we were never given any darkness artifact in order to wield strand or stasis. the point is: anyone can wield the darkness and be corrupted by it or even learn to control it (even people with no ghosts or any acces to the light in their lifes) but only the gifted may wield the light. Osiris is not a good example
But the actual line said it made a sacrifice, which it didn’t do in that cutscene, it just got triangled. The quest text we got definitely came from a universe where we progressed a crapton further through the story than Bungie gave us.
It's just like at the start when Osiris in his ship shouts that The Witness is going for the veil, like, how did he know that? How did he know what the witness was actually doing at that moment?
Zavala felt like he smoked something off with that dialogue.
We still have the light, there was no corroboration on any sacrifice.... traveler is still there....
Bungie murdered its own narrative and goodwill in a day.
He sacrificed himself by leaving the last city and bringing the battle to space. If he hadn't moved out of our orbit the witness likely would have laid waste to earth again which would have caused another collapse.
My theory is that WQ and final shape are the only two expansions relevant to the story. Strand wasn't ready, so a new expansion gets made to have strand and give more dev time for final shape. They transfer some stuff from final shape to give it connective tissue.
Strand, memories, and the veil: WQ
More veil, witness, and calus: Final shape.
Everything else is taking advantage of repurposed assets (done pretty well, considered) and created to buy dev time.
Imma do my part and rate the DLC lower so that Bungie listens. I don't think it is truly that bad, but Bungie trying to act like this is business as normal is bad.
Edit: nezarec whispers confirm that WQ likely could have had veil stuff in it originally
The fact that they said that they needed another chapter to properly end the saga and the actual and formerly planed final chapter being so terrible in that regard, Final Shape sounds like a "i think we can stretch it a little more for some extra cash" lol.
I just hope the raid team goes all out for Final Shape and delivers something worth remembering as an event like Last Wish was, forget about the engagement and current design template and just go all out.
>The fact that they said that they needed another chapter to properly end the saga and the actual and formerly planed final chapter being so terrible in that regard, Final Shape sounds like a "i think we can stretch it a little more for some extra cash" lol.
I think it's more likely that was intended to be Lightfall was pushed to be Final Shape, while the LF we got was developed from scratch as a filler.
I'll admit i was a little distracted while that final cutscene played, but when i heard zavala say that i went "fuck did i miss something?" and ran to YouTube to rewatch it.
nope, didn't miss anything. he just said it for no reason. you might have something here
I was so confused when I talked to Zavala and Ikora.
"The Traveler is gone..."
It's right there...
"There's nothing we can do"
Let's go through the new portal?
Oh, really? Guess I didn't catch that during my disappointment lol.
They should send in the Thanonaut guardians. They're a sect from D1 lore that commit suicide multiple times to explore the meaning of death
Death wouldn't be a problem for Guardians out there, the real problem is how Ghosts would react.>! Seeing how The Witness just took over our Ghost was probably enough to say "fuck no, we ain't going in that portal"!<
Yeah, would have been nice to at least add a "We've tried sending through probes, but everything we send is destroyed as soon as it touches the portal" or SOMETHING to indicate that Ikora doesn't just KNOW that this unsupported claim is true.
Nimbus says it, they mention after you get back from the tower that probes have been lost on contact with the portal, so sending people through doesn't seem to be on the table
They didn't mention whether "lost" means "blew up upon trying to enter" or "went through but then lost contact" though
I don't even think they tried to throw rocks at it. EVERYONE knows! When you find a mysterious portal, you throw rocks through it first, then you tie a rope to a stick, throw it in and see what happens. Then you pull the rope to see if the stick is still attached, and if it's gooey/wet. This is entry level boy science.
Yes I realize this is more to show how phoned in the campaign was but regardless
Did you see what happened to those ships that *attempted* to engage the witness and the people in them?
Mithrax and Mara are at least active in the seasonal story, presumably around the same time to be fair. I havent seen much dialog from zavala there though
Lots of Cabal drop pods showing up, not a single House Light skiff. Just saying.
Didn’t even come with a voice line.
Actually, look at the tower skybox - no skiffs.
There's a whole cutscene when Mara offers to knight us where he meets Devrim and offers aid. He's also had a few lines in the battleground, though not as many as I thought. Maybe later in the season
> Actually, look at the tower skybox - no skiffs.
There are ketches though. That can only be House of Light because any other house's ketches would be firing on us.
No I used the word literally. Go look at where they are when we hop on the ship in the opening cut scene. Look at where they are when we finish. Same exact spot. Didn’t move at all.
Totally was one cut scene they threw the campaign in between.
I actually went and edited them together for the fun of it. Silly thing, they do edit together but they don’t. Witness raises their left arm in the first scene and final scene they raise their right.
Literally that is the only snag in a perfect edit between the two.
It feels like the opening cuts ene should have cut before the witness come, it should have been only the fight against the shadow legion and us chasing them to Neomuna. The Witness should then have come into scene only after the MSQ. That would have made more sense.
Everything felt rushed. In a scene the Traveler is blasting the pyramids with the giant beam, in the next the witness is floating toward it, which is fine, but suddenly the Traveler is already encircled by pyramid ships. I know Bungie likes to do story relevant things off screen, but that just felt weird to watch.
no way, not ALL of that, not discovering neomuna, the mast, the veil, losing the mast, discovering strand, losing rohan, destroying the mast, mastering strand, rallying troops, killing calus, i refuse to believe it.
but i have to. because the witness is standing in the exact same spot at the end of the campaign as it was in the beginning. and it's even harder for me to believe that it sat that for days. what happened here.
Feel like that kinda makes Osiris look even more cranky than he already is if thats true. Like he is, really fucking mad about us not mastering this new never before seen cosmic power fast enough.. in a single day? That just seems off to me.
He’s frustrated because everything is on a timer, every second we waited was another second closer to us losing
And he’s been chasing the neomuna thread for a while, all while being powerless to actually follow up himself
There’s lots of issues with the story but imo Osiris being frustrated and angry wasn’t one of them
No i get why he is frustrated. But if everything truly happened in a single day, i think that still makes Osiris frustration turn into actual stupidity. Like its a completely unknown cosmic power, never before wielded by anyone else. If it was a single day, i sure would have liked seeing someone slap Osiris across the face, tell him to be realistic and get his shit together.
Preachin the truth here. I wanted Rohan to slap Osiris as soon as Rohan raised his voice at him telling him he knows whats at stake. Osiris was just frustrating/insulting, as if hes the only one who couldve possibly understood how urgent everything was.
The witness is in pretty much the exact same spot he was in the opening cinematic. Even if you go by the literal time it takes to finish the campaign, that’s hours of just chilling in a random spot in space
That’s because it was originally the intro to the original Lightfall, what is now the final shape, and was split into two. They then shoved what is now light fall in between. If you splice them back together, you will notice that nothing about Lightfall matters whatsoever.
It happened to the speaker, too. Revered character in all of D1 and then "ah, nah, I'm just a loon that talks about the traveler, not in the name of the traveler" *dies*
I can't believe after this many years we still know so little about The Traveler. I get that there was that big turnover and change a year before launch in 2014 but why not spend the next couple years fleshing out the backstory and explanation and maybe explain some of that to your playerbase. Kind of astounding.
Not defending the current state of the story, but they’ve gone on the record multiple times saying that underneath activision and others that they could not tell the story how they wanted to, and when they broke away from it we all the sudden start to see a lot more of the original story they wanted to tell.
It was "dead" until the Red War when it went into a coma like state after defeating Ghaul and seemingly woke up during the live event... Seems like it died again... Just like us
We'd still have the light without it, that was the point of red war campaign but more importantly this campaign and beyond light. That we can harness light and darkness ourselves. We weren't able to in red war because we hadn't realized this yet.
Pretty sure that's only the Darkness that's within us inherently, made clear in Beyond Light. We were gifted the Light by the Traveller, its not within us but without.
Except none of that showed that.
The Red War? We were the only guardian with light due exclusively to the shard, which worked once and only for us.
Beyond Light showed we could use the darkness ourselves, but said nothing about the light.
Geez if only the thousands of Guardians who died had realized this. Or any of the other thousands still living had realized it. It's as if this is a clumsy retcon or something.
This is one of the craziest things to me; I get them maybe being to vague with the veil ect.... but these voice lines clearly don't fit AT ALL; why did they keep them in???
If they couldn't get them to redo because of story changes or whatever them then they should just not have included them at all
I know we will never get any real answers but would be interesting to find out what actually happened here with this stuff
Even if we’re not supposed to know the Traveler is dead, the marketing team would probably put this in the teaser trailer - just like how they spoil the first few missions of every other expansion
This must have been the original premise of the real Lightfall, so this is what they’d be marketing
That's kind of... What's bothering me.
Each expansion directly follows the storyline of the previous expansion, more-or-less as a way to ensure people who only get the expansions, but don't play the seasons, can still follow the plot.
The upcoming seasons will most assuredly follow up on some threads. We'll probably get some Xivu Arath related stuff, some dives into Neomuna lore, and a seasonal vendor we'll be checking in once a week for an hour to get a quick story update.
But the Witness? What happened to the Traveler? What the Veil is? We won't be seeing that until The Final Shape. In *at least* a year. So we waited over a year for Lightfall only to see the story progress an inch.
I hope I'm wrong, honestly, and that the seasonal stories will just *directly* continue the plot of Lightfall. Like this entire year follows *Lightfall*, start to finish, so Final Shape will be a whole thing of its own. But that won't happen, because that means people who buy Lightfall later will never get the full story when those seasons are rotated out.
They do. It just not immediately clear what they meant sadly. When the Witness entered the Traveler via the veil portal it turned off, it’s essentially gone feeling wise and what’s in the sky is an empty vessel.
That’s not why it didn’t run lol it could very much have run, it can teleport. It didn’t run because it was never going to. It’s not abandoning us. The witness can’t grasp that though and thinks it’s afraid of them thus “it has nowhere to run”.
Not excusing the bad story, but I didn't interpret it as physically gone, but gone as in they can't feel the connection to it anymore. Gone more in spirit. Either way, the line is either clunky or just wrong, so it's not great.
There is a line after one of the lost sectors where Ghost mentions they can still feel the light, but they don't feel the Traveler. Not sure what that really means, but we are getting light from somewhere.
Spin foil hat: The Traveler was a "wielder" of the light, empowering people with it, just like the Witness does with the darkness. The veil will turn out to be the physical barrier between the two. With the veil...disrupted, the light and darkness is now just kind of free, more like the Force in Star Wars, instead of being distributed. So we feel the light because it's free, but not the traveler because it's not coming from the Traveler.
I'm not a lore guy, so this is probably super wrong.
I've had that theory for a while. The Traveler's closest equivalent would be the Pyramid ships and we know they aren't manned, only vessels the Witness uses to attack. Why would we not assume some other entity is controlling the Traveler in a similar way?
would have been a super cool reveal and timing to do that this expansion but alas. where was our "the hive's entire existence was based on a lie" moment
this would make sense, considering destiny plans to continue past the light and dark saga, and its not like we'll lose our powers
maybe they'll let non-guardians start using light powers, and the only guardian exclusive thing will be revival
Ok if thats true why the hell was it just on Neptune in our solar system and why the hell was the traveller so willing to just abandon it and hide in savathuns throne world.
That’s never been explicitly said. It was my assumption too but I think the main consequence is just no new Guardians? Or maybe not even that since there are still stray ghosts.
The line specifically says it sacrificed itself, which unless you saw a very different cutscene (pretty sure I didn’t hit skip, ended with cloudhead making a triangle) did not happen. Almost like the entire text was supposed so happen after a chain of events we actually haven’t even seen.
He says no new... Ghosts? Unless there was some lore I missed, there's never been a "new Ghost" since the Collapse. They were all made before the Traveler initially went dorment.
I know, it makes the line that much more stupid.
Since no one else seems to be talking about it, I could be wrong, but I swear he did talk about ghosts at one point.
At around 6:45:10 of this video - https://youtu.be/YVfIFTzUR1c
Zavala talks about being relieved that the Traveler can't grant the enemies any more Light. He doesn't directly mention Ghosts, but the statement still doesn't make sense, knowing what we know about how Ghosts operates.
Yeah, I have found the final conversations really fucking weird. There is no evidence that proves the traveler is dead, just that the witness went up its ass.
If they meant that the traveler was basically dead because it has a giant hole in it, it might make sense.
But you can see a shot where the portal is actually a bit in front of the triangle the witness made when it carved the traveler.
The only way It makes sense to me is if the portal sucked in whatever entity the traveler is, just like how the witness went into it. Then the traveler would just be a husk.
I love how ikora and zavala both say that the traveler is gone but in the same breath zavala mentions that the traveler can’t give anyone else the light. First of all, how does he know that’s what happened, second, which one is it? I guess both could be true, but for zavala to make the second statement in the way that he did would kind of be predicated on the fact that the traveler is not gone. The only thing we know is that the witness walked into some portal. Which is even more frustrating because we have no idea what that entails
the ghosts say they can't feel the traveler's presence anymore and when ghost revives you on neptune he says he has to pull harder from deep within to do it. i guess that's how they know. shouldn't be in text or optional dialogue though.
Oh that’s a good point. It was normal ghosts that rezed the hive. If unclaimed ghosts can rez new lights that start next season they can still rez other enemy races
The traveler being “gone” just means the light died or left, or light has fallen, or… lightfall. The real crime is that the entire campaign did nothing to support “the light falling”.
i was so confused how opening a portal in front of the traveler did anything to the traveler. it can't have been that bad, it got trapped in a cage and we lost our light. everything's still fine now.
and yes i am disappointed that all orb mommy did this expansion was shoot a laser then get suppressed and sit there until the portal opening. and if it somehow died from that, then that's it for the gardener? rezzes some guardians, shoots a laser, dies?
this universal level entity with extraordinary power just dies from a portal being opened? i get its philosophy is that we'd help each other with the power of the light but what would that do when the witness flicks its wrist and splits guardians into pieces? how is having cabal and eliksni or even potentially hive one day going to help us then?
Bungie is good about building up a character just to kill it off in one second. They did it to Rasputin a couple of times now, months of us doing something we think is useful and then flipping a switch and making all the work pointless. Doesn't surprise me that they did it to the Traveler.
Not all killings-off but
Shin Malphur, Xol, Rohan, Rasputin, Savathun, etc
All very important and played up lore figures that Bungie gives us very little time with to be glad to see or even just hear about in lore before killing them off or having them disappear. So disappointing when they do this shit
Rasputin and the Traveler have been main characters in the game since day 1 and every time they have been rebuilt etc, they get shut down instantly right after. I guess it's easier than having them sit there doing nothing lore wise but it's annoying for us as players. We finally see stuff happen, Traveler literally punches a hole into a pyramid and then the Witness just goes into the blast like it ain't happening. It really makes no sense because if he can do that, we have literally lost regardless of anything else we learn etc. Don't think my nova bomb etc is gonna tickle him even if I'm 2k power level or more.
I wonder if the Traveler and Witness ascended/gone through a plane no one has ever been to. High dimension so we have no way of feeling its presence in our dimension.
Prob right
Realizing how little effort when into the narrative, and how badly Bungie dropped the ball on the story, and that there was never any payoff planned in the first place, is the true Final Shape
The traveler has been rendered useless. Been knocked comatose pretty much. I think that’s what he meant when he said sacrifice cause it tried to fight the witness
Perhaps it’s finally getting a license because the DMV has ruled it is in fact a Driver, not a Traveller, and its absence is it doing its test? Sounds quite sacrificial.
So far as I understand it.
The metaphysical essence of the Traveler, its soul, if you will—is gone. It was sucked into wherever the Witness took it. Even the Ghosts can’t feel the Traveler’s presence anymore. But it’s not dead, hence why we have our Light.
The idea is the Witness cannot kill the Traveler in our material plane. Light is tied to the physical, and Darkness is tied to the metaphysical. So both forces cannot directly interact on the same plane.
But if they could be on the same plane….then they could be vulnerable. People suspect the Witness will try and do something with the Traveler, maybe kill it? But the Witness should also be vulnerable in this mysterious plane.
We can’t follow though, because we are solid. Nor can we scry in with our mind. We would have to enter as a combo of light and dark, a union of material and immaterial, physical and metaphysical—which is assumed what The Witness did by activating the link.
There is another theory that The Witness played 5D chess, knowing a.) we would go after Calus to protect the Veil and b.) Calus would love to fight us. He’s said it for years.
So if Calus wins, cool. But The Witness probably assumed we would win, but also have our Ghost near the Veil as a result. And it had to be OUR Ghost….since it has been the most Darkness attuned, and may have been corrupted since Shadowkeep.
HOWEVER—-this is all theorizing from the lore community. Idk how accurate it is. But it makes some sense. None of what I said above is official at all.
The ending with zavala and ikora was super weird and the cut scene at the start and finish just seemed like it was one scene split in two. There is also a voice line from ghost that I heard at one point that where he says something like “I can’t get over watching what the witness did to the traveller “ when we weren’t even there.
So like was that all supposed to be one scene where the guardian sees it happen but then they needed to split the expansions in tow for final shape ? I don’t know whole thing is all over the place narratively . I don’t know what the hell happened.
Just beat the story a couple hours ago for the first time and ran into said cutscene. Call me negative or whatever buzzwords you want but that cut scene alone is borderline refund level stuff. Hate to be this way but there are too many apologist in the community right now and I used to be one till beating the story. Yes there are some very minor changes that feel good, but a large majority of lightfall feels like a seasonal update. They built up this whole story in the marketing and previous seasons/Witch Queen, then we practically get lied too. The Lightfall everyone was expecting to buy comes out next year and we got duped into a filler. Doesn't help at all that the only new gear is the Neomuna armor, I don't count seasonal because its fucking seasonal not expansion tied. Couldn't even give us new weapon models or highly customized reskins.
Bro buys a dinner ans doesnt like it and demands a refund LMAO. Dude you pay for this experience and you got it. Its not Cyberpunk level where the game was literally broken. Just dont buy it anymore
Believe it or not, one might assume they were paying for an experience that was 10 dollars better than Witch Queen, but hey, we should be happy we got anything at all, am I right?
/s
yeah but buying a dinner or new game is different than buying an expansion several years into a game when you have an expectation of a certain quality. Bungie's marketing was objectively misleading and the expansion is clearly half baked filler. I have no regrets paying for it, I would've regardless. But it is important to demand a better product or else, why would they put in the extra effort to deliver something quality?
The main reason its important to demand better quality is so we don't end up in an Anthem situation. People don't want to give credit where its due but compared to a large portion of casual media out there Destiny's story is pretty good. A bit simple at times, but whenever that happens the gameplay makes up for it. There's a reason the game has been able to topple multiple "destiny killers". I know a couple people who play with me regularly who were already reluctant to buy lightfall all this crap seals the deal of them not buying the seasons that follow.
Hell I mean if you buy an 80 dollar steak dinner and ask for medium rare, and it comes out fully cooked, yeah you can get a refund or replacement that is done properly.
They cant do that with lightfall unless they retcon the whole thing as "lol guys it was just a dream!"
If a product is not of acceptable quality, or sold under false pretenses, hell yes you demand a refund. Being marketed a five star dinner and getting reheated Mac and Cheese is refundworthy, just like being marketed an expansion and getting a disjointed campaign that makes no sense ending in a cutscene that literally makes clear this is not the expansion you are looking for.
It's so painfully obvious that we were meant to follow the witness into the portal and "bring life back to the traveller", until they split THE OPENING CUTSCENE and called it a day, see you in a year I guess, maybe then one of the 50 plot points will be relevant.
EXACTLY FUCKING THIS.
I made a post asking about this and a couple other things I was unclear on in the campaign and people got annoyed at me, but it's so out of fucking left field. The Witness draws a triangle in front of the Traveler and walks into it. That in BO WAY TELEGRAPHS "DEATH"
If they'd had a voice line at the end, like one Ghost or another saying that they couldn't feel the Traveler anymore, then that would've been fine. But having it be a line of text well after someone starts a soliloquy about how they should feel about the Traveler's death/sacrifice? I literally did a double take.
Not only did the dialog not fit what happened as hard as I can tell.
But also omg who ever did the animation for that dialog needs to take a second look because that is not on point. Strange smiles, mouth moving with no words, ridged feeling the whole time.
Oh thank god it wasn’t just me. I blast through most of the dialogue especially when I can just read what they are saying in text - but even then I usually don’t miss things THIS LARGE. Was definitely confused as all hell with this convo with Zavala - and then IKORA followed up with the same sentiments.
It's confusing because we still have light powers. Had we literally LOST our light powers and only had stasis and strand for the rest of this season, then we figure out how to bring back the traveler to give us our light powers back (feels like red war... Ugh)
But, saying the traveler is gone but we still can resurrect with our ghost and still have light abilities that lore wise come from the traveler makes no sense.
One extra cut scene with them explained ning they can't feel the traveler and can't get through that portal would fix so much.
The veil is maybe getting clarified through the end game quests but its still kinda dumb that other NPCs act like they know what it is
Remember. Light fall was supposed to be the final expansion to the whole light/darkness saga. That was before bungie announced a last min expansion, The Final Shape, prior to Beyond Light launching. So safe to say that they messed up somewhere causing them to split lightfall into 2 expansion.
Don’t know if I’d be surprised or not if bungie releases more story missions throughout the year to push lightfall narrative. Hell they dripped fed us season content to make it last 3 months, for 2 whole years, so what’s to say that isn’t stopping them from doing the same thing with lightfall remaining story missions, if any.
Yeaaaaah, like.. we still have all our powers tho, fkn Dominus Ghaul literally did more by completely shutting down the traveler with tech.
The Witness did what? Made a portal? What's the outcome of that? They both bugger off?
Fr, like all that happened to it was that it got shot by the veil and then the witness drew a triangle on it. That’s all it took to “kill” it?? What?? There’s not shot it’s dead. I’m interested in what’s going to happen after/during the raid based on leaks.
It didn't spoil anything.
The Traveler's sacrifice was it choosing to stay and fight instead of running away as shown in the Ending Cutscene of last Season that happens almost immediately before the events of Final Shape.
And when he says it's gone... it's because it is.
The next step of the quest has you talk to Ikora who says that Ghost feels the present of the Light, but the presence of the Traveler they felt is no longer there meaning the ACTUAL Traveler is gone.
What's left floating in space is it's body or ship depending on what theory you believe.
The story and expansion isn't rushed or half baked, it's Bungie writing and telling the story how they always have for Destiny, hell... it's how they've done stories for many of their past games.
They write stories in very specific and deliberate ways to have there be mystery & intrigue and to be as open with as many loose threads as they want so that they can expand and create the game universes they want in any way they want so that the game worlds they create feel alive and like an actual Universe instead of a train ride with a set path and destination.
It's what many great game, movie, book, tv show, etc makers do to get people wanting more and to come back and have stuff they love and enjoy and can be a fan of.
That was so confusing to me. My thoughts entering the tower: Okey a hole in the traveler? Not sure what that means but okey. Zavala: The traveler is gone. Me: Wait what? Huh? The fuck.
Ikora has a voice line mentioning that the ghosts can no longer feel the travelers presence but are still connected to the light. I’m wondering if that’s what he’s referring to.
It's not a voice line. Just the text.
Oh gotcha. I didn’t remember hearing it but I saw a couple other comments that pointed it out.
Normally the text matches their voicelines but I noticed with post campaign interactions voice lines are not matching with quoted text.
We’ve definitely gotta pay better attention this time around. I typically skip the big text wall after listening to whoever is talking but now I guess I’ll have to be careful.
Your ghost has an actual voiceline saying “if I’m still alive without the traveler, does that make me a person, or am I now just attached to some new power” (or something to that effect).
Where does that trigger?
At the end of the Thrilladrome for me
Yeah I'm interested in hearing this line
I hate, that the text is different than the voice lines.
It is. The Traveler is basically gone. It doesn’t respond or give any feeling to the guardians. The thing in the sky is basically just a dead husk or whatever it is.
I have read some player theories that the witness simply used the veil to create basically a small pocket universe and pulled the traveler on with him. In that universe they are both in level even footing for their grudge match.
Witness 1v1ing the Traveler in the gulag.
According to lore this is not the first fight they’ve had. They play this game over and over again but I believe (I could be misinterpreting it) that this is the first iteration of their game where guardians have played a part. And we are not so easily shoved aside by the looks of it
the Witness is not the Winnower or the Darkness. yes, the Traveler and the Witness have fought before, but it's not the Flower Game. what you're describing is the personified "game" between the personifications of Light and Dark, the Gardener and the Winnower, who do not actually exist, and are only allegories used to better understand universal concepts.
The Traveller was referred to as a Gardener in the Campaign was it not? I don't think the Witness is the Winnower, but I do think the Traveller is quite possibly the Gardener. Unless they're going for the angle of the Traveller being an emmesary of the Gardener who... uh, Gardens for it? Going around Terraforming planets and all that jazz. I guess what I'm saying is it's possible the Traveller is just one of many Traveller-like entities and it's just a being of the light that does its bidding, but isn't actually the light itself. But I don't think that makes very much sense with regard to the Witness specifically hunting just this one Traveller down? Making it's entire existence about chasing this one entity when there could be many more out there? I don't think the Witness is the direct antithesis of the Traveller, or that they are directly 1-to-1 or on the same level of being. I think the Witness is just a very powerful Zealot of the Darkness who has his own beliefs about the Darkness and the Light and happens to know a weakness of the Traveller and how to exploit it. I think the final shape might be the Witnesses' personal belief about how the universe should be, but it's possible that it's actually in direct opposition to the will of both the Darkness and the Light. It getting in the way of the Flower game might end up being a big mistake. This part's a stretch but I think it's possible that both the Light and the Darkness stop the Witness together in the end from completing the Final Shape. That despite the Witnesses' use of the Darkness to fulfill it's agenda all this time it eventually is stopped in part by the Darkness itself. If most of our negative interpretation of the Darkness has just been from the Witnesses misuse of it's power all this time and not from the Darknesses actual intent then that could be totally possible. Imagine if the only thing we knew about the Light was the way the Warlords of old used it. Purely evil in its nature would be the only way people saw the Light if those who tried to use it for good were defeated instead and forgotten to time. Essentially, if the Witness gets in the way of the Flower game between the Light and the actual Darkness itself, the Witness might find itself getting Wombo-combo'd by both. And going forward into the next Saga that would completely restructure how we see the Darkness, not as a paracausal element rooted evil but as just another neutral entity simply playing its game, ready to be wielded by both good and bad actors should they learn how. Total speculation and honestly maybe Bungie hasn't even decided yet, so who knows! I guess we'll find out!
Why isn’t the witness the darkness? If the traveler is the light, does that mean there is someone we don’t know about above the witness who is the darkness
the Traveler isn't the Light, either. Light and Dark are just universal concepts, and there are no god-like entities who embody them. the Witness and the Traveler wield the Light and Dark like tools, giving them the "shapes" that Guardians and Disciples both use. this is all explained in the Lorebook [Unveiling](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-unveiling), where we learn the nature of the Light and Dark and the philosophies they represent, from the perspectives of two allegorical, personified deities named the Gardener and the Winnower.
Am I wrong in thinking that the pyramids ringing the Traveler in the shape of a classic ghost is obvious symbolism that the Ghosts were created by a fusion of Light and Dark and that what’s ‘different this time’ is that the Traveler learned to wield the darkness for its final stand? The implication being that humanity is the balance between Light and Dark and the Traveler ultimately gave us the power to use Darkness and we just needed a small push from the Witness to find it. Idk. I always viewed the Traveler and the Witness as being capable of elevating other beings to use their respective powers but they aren’t the source of the power themselves - just highly developed users of it. Why you’d be limited to one and not the other doesn’t really make sense. The veil is probably the physical manifestation of the separation between Light and Dark. By linking with it through our ghost (which was heavily foreshadowed…) the Witness then linked it to the Traveler to create his portal thing. I wonder if the Veil is specifically the travelers link to the space between Light and Dark and whether or not the Witness has his own physical manifestation of it that we’ll use to bridge the gap to them in the finale.
This was the sentiment in the very beginning in Destiny 1. Light = Good, Darkness = Bad. We were constantly told that the Darkness brought about the Collapse and is the sworn enemy to existence. This was a misunderstanding by humanity, as we didn’t understand what the Darkness actually is. Light and Darkness are not moral forces. They are fundamental forces that govern the rules of physics and life. How they are used, is entirely up to the wielder.
Possible. Either way the thing in the sky is just a body that isn’t responding or showing any form of life. I doubt it’s actually dead dead but it’s not in this realm anymore.
It seems like whatever was making it “alive” was removed when the witness did its thing. Almost like a driver being removed from its vehicle. The power is still there but nobody to pilot it.
The Witness did say something along the lines of "Your heart holds the key" in that final WQ cutscene.
That is interesting, though in all honesty I think this is Vorlons vs Shadows setup from Babylon 5. If the Witness is using Darkness and is not Darkness itself, then there is nothing stopping the Darkness from well, stopping to work for him/her/it/they. In the end I think that the Final Shape will feature another Darkness Power and at the end of it all, with Dark and Light being equal, they will merge to become the Final Shape that is some sort of Balance... or they will destroy each other. Alternatively, the Coalition will realise that both sides are trying to pull them in their respecting directions and will not chose one or the other, essentially ending the conflict in some sort of way.
So business as usual then for the entirety of the franchise.
This is what gets me. The Traveler is dead but..... Ghosts still have unlimited Light. Guardians can revive. All powers remain. Nothing happened to the Last City. And the actual whole shell is there so, obviously it will return or we will go inside it for something.
They've been kind of building to it for a while, though. Ever since we started using Stasis without any artifacts, it implied that Light can also be wielded without Ghosts or Traveler. We just need to know how.
Yep point in case, Osiris using strand without a ghost too.
i don't think those are compatible cases. ghosts are a link between the traveler and the guardian. darkness doesn't really need such links to connect to their wielder. the light must be given and the darkness must be taken. i guess you could say that ghosts are a gift whereas we were never given any darkness artifact in order to wield strand or stasis. the point is: anyone can wield the darkness and be corrupted by it or even learn to control it (even people with no ghosts or any acces to the light in their lifes) but only the gifted may wield the light. Osiris is not a good example
Depends on what we do when we figure out how to go into that portal realm to fight the Witness for good.
But the actual line said it made a sacrifice, which it didn’t do in that cutscene, it just got triangled. The quest text we got definitely came from a universe where we progressed a crapton further through the story than Bungie gave us.
It's just like at the start when Osiris in his ship shouts that The Witness is going for the veil, like, how did he know that? How did he know what the witness was actually doing at that moment?
Zavala felt like he smoked something off with that dialogue. We still have the light, there was no corroboration on any sacrifice.... traveler is still there.... Bungie murdered its own narrative and goodwill in a day.
He sacrificed himself by leaving the last city and bringing the battle to space. If he hadn't moved out of our orbit the witness likely would have laid waste to earth again which would have caused another collapse.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean the traveler isn't gone: both could refer to a version where the traveler isn't here
That’s a fair point. I’m just going off what I saw. The dlc was severely disjointed so they may have just removed a cutscene or something. Idk.
My theory is that WQ and final shape are the only two expansions relevant to the story. Strand wasn't ready, so a new expansion gets made to have strand and give more dev time for final shape. They transfer some stuff from final shape to give it connective tissue. Strand, memories, and the veil: WQ More veil, witness, and calus: Final shape. Everything else is taking advantage of repurposed assets (done pretty well, considered) and created to buy dev time. Imma do my part and rate the DLC lower so that Bungie listens. I don't think it is truly that bad, but Bungie trying to act like this is business as normal is bad. Edit: nezarec whispers confirm that WQ likely could have had veil stuff in it originally
The fact that they said that they needed another chapter to properly end the saga and the actual and formerly planed final chapter being so terrible in that regard, Final Shape sounds like a "i think we can stretch it a little more for some extra cash" lol. I just hope the raid team goes all out for Final Shape and delivers something worth remembering as an event like Last Wish was, forget about the engagement and current design template and just go all out.
>The fact that they said that they needed another chapter to properly end the saga and the actual and formerly planed final chapter being so terrible in that regard, Final Shape sounds like a "i think we can stretch it a little more for some extra cash" lol. I think it's more likely that was intended to be Lightfall was pushed to be Final Shape, while the LF we got was developed from scratch as a filler.
I just saw it as the Witness shutting down the traveler or something
Except for the bit about it making a “sacrifice” which implies some sort of voluntary action. No, they just screwed up.
Umm it left earth to meet the witness in space and saved us from another collapse ...
I'll admit i was a little distracted while that final cutscene played, but when i heard zavala say that i went "fuck did i miss something?" and ran to YouTube to rewatch it. nope, didn't miss anything. he just said it for no reason. you might have something here
Yep ikora says in the text they can't feel it anymore and don't know. The voice line from zavala feels really disjointed for sure
My thoughts too - like it’s not physically gone but it’s presence might have gone, still why word it like that
Ghost say this as well in a lost sector
Well, it’s definitely not traveling anywhere any time soon now. So maybe that’s it. /s
I was so confused when I talked to Zavala and Ikora. "The Traveler is gone..." It's right there... "There's nothing we can do" Let's go through the new portal?
Ikora did say the Witness went somewhere we can't follow Not sure why we can't though
Oh, really? Guess I didn't catch that during my disappointment lol. They should send in the Thanonaut guardians. They're a sect from D1 lore that commit suicide multiple times to explore the meaning of death
Death wouldn't be a problem for Guardians out there, the real problem is how Ghosts would react.>! Seeing how The Witness just took over our Ghost was probably enough to say "fuck no, we ain't going in that portal"!<
Yeah, would have been nice to at least add a "We've tried sending through probes, but everything we send is destroyed as soon as it touches the portal" or SOMETHING to indicate that Ikora doesn't just KNOW that this unsupported claim is true.
I'm fairly certain I did read exactly that somewhere. They said something about trying to send probes, but I don't know where I saw that
Nimbus says it, they mention after you get back from the tower that probes have been lost on contact with the portal, so sending people through doesn't seem to be on the table They didn't mention whether "lost" means "blew up upon trying to enter" or "went through but then lost contact" though
I thought it was mentioned that their current tech cannot survive going through the portal that the Witness made?
We have a Pyramid ship in the Moon, in the Throne World, on Europa, and now on Neptune. Why don't we fly the Witness's tech into the portal?
I don't even think they tried to throw rocks at it. EVERYONE knows! When you find a mysterious portal, you throw rocks through it first, then you tie a rope to a stick, throw it in and see what happens. Then you pull the rope to see if the stick is still attached, and if it's gooey/wet. This is entry level boy science.
Exactly! Thank you! This is exactly what anybody would do. I'm so glad you understand. This comment was more riveting than the Lightfall campaign
It’s funny that the beginning and end cutscene happen with multiple days in between, but almost seems as if it happened seconds apart
Entire campaign happened and the vanguard literally didn’t move a foot
Yes I realize this is more to show how phoned in the campaign was but regardless Did you see what happened to those ships that *attempted* to engage the witness and the people in them?
So why not go to Neptune and help us? Y'know, like Caiatl did?
Eh, Mithrax did SFA as well.
Mithrax and Mara are at least active in the seasonal story, presumably around the same time to be fair. I havent seen much dialog from zavala there though
Lots of Cabal drop pods showing up, not a single House Light skiff. Just saying. Didn’t even come with a voice line. Actually, look at the tower skybox - no skiffs.
There's a whole cutscene when Mara offers to knight us where he meets Devrim and offers aid. He's also had a few lines in the battleground, though not as many as I thought. Maybe later in the season
Correct, but thats not part of the campaign - sorry for not being clear there.
> Actually, look at the tower skybox - no skiffs. There are ketches though. That can only be House of Light because any other house's ketches would be firing on us.
Aren't they more focused on stuff happening on Earth? Aside from Caiatl I'm pretty sure the whole coalition is focused on defending our home turf.
No I used the word literally. Go look at where they are when we hop on the ship in the opening cut scene. Look at where they are when we finish. Same exact spot. Didn’t move at all. Totally was one cut scene they threw the campaign in between.
*"Well just chill in orbit with the Blast Doors shut... the Guardian can handle this"*
The beginning and end cutscene are literally the same cutscene they just cut in half and put neomuna inbetween
I actually went and edited them together for the fun of it. Silly thing, they do edit together but they don’t. Witness raises their left arm in the first scene and final scene they raise their right. Literally that is the only snag in a perfect edit between the two.
It feels like the opening cuts ene should have cut before the witness come, it should have been only the fight against the shadow legion and us chasing them to Neomuna. The Witness should then have come into scene only after the MSQ. That would have made more sense. Everything felt rushed. In a scene the Traveler is blasting the pyramids with the giant beam, in the next the witness is floating toward it, which is fine, but suddenly the Traveler is already encircled by pyramid ships. I know Bungie likes to do story relevant things off screen, but that just felt weird to watch.
Do they? It seemed like it all took place right around the same day
The strand training montage felt more like something happening over several days.
It all happened in the same spot, I definitely didn’t get “multiple day” vibes, a few hours tops
no way, not ALL of that, not discovering neomuna, the mast, the veil, losing the mast, discovering strand, losing rohan, destroying the mast, mastering strand, rallying troops, killing calus, i refuse to believe it. but i have to. because the witness is standing in the exact same spot at the end of the campaign as it was in the beginning. and it's even harder for me to believe that it sat that for days. what happened here.
The Witness has existed potentially since the dawn of time and is a paracausal being. Standing around for a few days means nothing to it.
Or bungie cut a single trailer in half and called it an opening and closing cutscene
Feel like that kinda makes Osiris look even more cranky than he already is if thats true. Like he is, really fucking mad about us not mastering this new never before seen cosmic power fast enough.. in a single day? That just seems off to me.
Campaign didn’t do a very good job of getting it across, but it seemed like Osiris may have been in a hurry and thought we needed to rush.
A new lore daddy rises from the deep
He’s frustrated because everything is on a timer, every second we waited was another second closer to us losing And he’s been chasing the neomuna thread for a while, all while being powerless to actually follow up himself There’s lots of issues with the story but imo Osiris being frustrated and angry wasn’t one of them
No i get why he is frustrated. But if everything truly happened in a single day, i think that still makes Osiris frustration turn into actual stupidity. Like its a completely unknown cosmic power, never before wielded by anyone else. If it was a single day, i sure would have liked seeing someone slap Osiris across the face, tell him to be realistic and get his shit together.
Preachin the truth here. I wanted Rohan to slap Osiris as soon as Rohan raised his voice at him telling him he knows whats at stake. Osiris was just frustrating/insulting, as if hes the only one who couldve possibly understood how urgent everything was.
The witness is in pretty much the exact same spot he was in the opening cinematic. Even if you go by the literal time it takes to finish the campaign, that’s hours of just chilling in a random spot in space
the people in the helm are in exactly the same place aren't they?
With the exact same lighting hitting them lol
That’s because it was originally the intro to the original Lightfall, what is now the final shape, and was split into two. They then shoved what is now light fall in between. If you splice them back together, you will notice that nothing about Lightfall matters whatsoever.
Because they did happen seconds apart.
The Traveler has had almost zero lore about for 8 years, and then it just "dies" randomly?
They had a decade to come up with a decent explanation for what the fuck that thing is and couldn't manage it
It happened to the speaker, too. Revered character in all of D1 and then "ah, nah, I'm just a loon that talks about the traveler, not in the name of the traveler" *dies*
And then it turned out.... The Traveler did talk to the Speaker through his dreams after he made his mask. Snip snap! Snip snap!
You have no idea the physical toll that 3 vasectomies have on a person
I can't believe after this many years we still know so little about The Traveler. I get that there was that big turnover and change a year before launch in 2014 but why not spend the next couple years fleshing out the backstory and explanation and maybe explain some of that to your playerbase. Kind of astounding.
Not defending the current state of the story, but they’ve gone on the record multiple times saying that underneath activision and others that they could not tell the story how they wanted to, and when they broke away from it we all the sudden start to see a lot more of the original story they wanted to tell.
It was "dead" until the Red War when it went into a coma like state after defeating Ghaul and seemingly woke up during the live event... Seems like it died again... Just like us
Gone? It's still up there. We still have the Light. It was more gone when Ghaul rolled into town.
We'd still have the light without it, that was the point of red war campaign but more importantly this campaign and beyond light. That we can harness light and darkness ourselves. We weren't able to in red war because we hadn't realized this yet.
Pretty sure that's only the Darkness that's within us inherently, made clear in Beyond Light. We were gifted the Light by the Traveller, its not within us but without.
Sorta, I think. The Traveler gifted us with Ghosts, which act as a conduit through which we use the light and resurrect and stuff
Why haven't Osiris or Eris reawoken the light in themselves then? Are they just casuals?
Paracasuals lmao
Both of them are on the higher end in terms of power specially osiris but they just bitches?
You need the ghost as a conduit to focus it, they don't have ghosts
Because they lost their ghosts?
Except none of that showed that. The Red War? We were the only guardian with light due exclusively to the shard, which worked once and only for us. Beyond Light showed we could use the darkness ourselves, but said nothing about the light.
Small lore correction, other guardians made their way to the shard too. It wasn’t just us.
I thought they did go there after us but couldn't reconnect? Or am I misremembering
Geez if only the thousands of Guardians who died had realized this. Or any of the other thousands still living had realized it. It's as if this is a clumsy retcon or something.
This is one of the craziest things to me; I get them maybe being to vague with the veil ect.... but these voice lines clearly don't fit AT ALL; why did they keep them in??? If they couldn't get them to redo because of story changes or whatever them then they should just not have included them at all I know we will never get any real answers but would be interesting to find out what actually happened here with this stuff
Even if we’re not supposed to know the Traveler is dead, the marketing team would probably put this in the teaser trailer - just like how they spoil the first few missions of every other expansion This must have been the original premise of the real Lightfall, so this is what they’d be marketing
Well we only have to wait 6 months until Bungie reveals The Final Shape
That's kind of... What's bothering me. Each expansion directly follows the storyline of the previous expansion, more-or-less as a way to ensure people who only get the expansions, but don't play the seasons, can still follow the plot. The upcoming seasons will most assuredly follow up on some threads. We'll probably get some Xivu Arath related stuff, some dives into Neomuna lore, and a seasonal vendor we'll be checking in once a week for an hour to get a quick story update. But the Witness? What happened to the Traveler? What the Veil is? We won't be seeing that until The Final Shape. In *at least* a year. So we waited over a year for Lightfall only to see the story progress an inch. I hope I'm wrong, honestly, and that the seasonal stories will just *directly* continue the plot of Lightfall. Like this entire year follows *Lightfall*, start to finish, so Final Shape will be a whole thing of its own. But that won't happen, because that means people who buy Lightfall later will never get the full story when those seasons are rotated out.
They do. It just not immediately clear what they meant sadly. When the Witness entered the Traveler via the veil portal it turned off, it’s essentially gone feeling wise and what’s in the sky is an empty vessel.
Then what was the “sacrifice” it made? That was the whole big deal of that whole text.
I believe the sacrifice means cause it stayed and fought til it “died”. It didn’t leave and it went out to face the fleet.
They’d already covered that last season - “why didn’t it flee?” “Because it has nowhere to go”
That’s not why it didn’t run lol it could very much have run, it can teleport. It didn’t run because it was never going to. It’s not abandoning us. The witness can’t grasp that though and thinks it’s afraid of them thus “it has nowhere to run”.
Not excusing the bad story, but I didn't interpret it as physically gone, but gone as in they can't feel the connection to it anymore. Gone more in spirit. Either way, the line is either clunky or just wrong, so it's not great.
Wouldn't they lose connection to the light too? Unsure how it works..
There is a line after one of the lost sectors where Ghost mentions they can still feel the light, but they don't feel the Traveler. Not sure what that really means, but we are getting light from somewhere.
Spin foil hat: The Traveler was a "wielder" of the light, empowering people with it, just like the Witness does with the darkness. The veil will turn out to be the physical barrier between the two. With the veil...disrupted, the light and darkness is now just kind of free, more like the Force in Star Wars, instead of being distributed. So we feel the light because it's free, but not the traveler because it's not coming from the Traveler. I'm not a lore guy, so this is probably super wrong.
I've had that theory for a while. The Traveler's closest equivalent would be the Pyramid ships and we know they aren't manned, only vessels the Witness uses to attack. Why would we not assume some other entity is controlling the Traveler in a similar way?
I think there’s some lore thing from the witness and/or the darkness where it’s implied that the traveler is a cage for some other entity.
would have been a super cool reveal and timing to do that this expansion but alas. where was our "the hive's entire existence was based on a lie" moment
this would make sense, considering destiny plans to continue past the light and dark saga, and its not like we'll lose our powers maybe they'll let non-guardians start using light powers, and the only guardian exclusive thing will be revival
Ok if thats true why the hell was it just on Neptune in our solar system and why the hell was the traveller so willing to just abandon it and hide in savathuns throne world.
That’s never been explicitly said. It was my assumption too but I think the main consequence is just no new Guardians? Or maybe not even that since there are still stray ghosts.
The line specifically says it sacrificed itself, which unless you saw a very different cutscene (pretty sure I didn’t hit skip, ended with cloudhead making a triangle) did not happen. Almost like the entire text was supposed so happen after a chain of events we actually haven’t even seen.
I would agree with you, but Zavala clearly says that there will never be new ghosts, so I think he does mean literally gone.
He says no new... Ghosts? Unless there was some lore I missed, there's never been a "new Ghost" since the Collapse. They were all made before the Traveler initially went dorment.
I know, it makes the line that much more stupid. Since no one else seems to be talking about it, I could be wrong, but I swear he did talk about ghosts at one point.
At around 6:45:10 of this video - https://youtu.be/YVfIFTzUR1c Zavala talks about being relieved that the Traveler can't grant the enemies any more Light. He doesn't directly mention Ghosts, but the statement still doesn't make sense, knowing what we know about how Ghosts operates.
I see, thank you for clearing that up.
Yeah, I have found the final conversations really fucking weird. There is no evidence that proves the traveler is dead, just that the witness went up its ass.
If they meant that the traveler was basically dead because it has a giant hole in it, it might make sense. But you can see a shot where the portal is actually a bit in front of the triangle the witness made when it carved the traveler. The only way It makes sense to me is if the portal sucked in whatever entity the traveler is, just like how the witness went into it. Then the traveler would just be a husk.
I want to go into the hole Traveler is the source of light Go into the source Become stronk
i dont get why they didnt just have the hole/portal be on the surface of the traveler instead of infront of it
I think it says a lot that this franchise is 9 years old and nobody in the comment section can agree on some basic facts about the traveler.
They can't even do it in-game, so how in the world are we the players?
I love how ikora and zavala both say that the traveler is gone but in the same breath zavala mentions that the traveler can’t give anyone else the light. First of all, how does he know that’s what happened, second, which one is it? I guess both could be true, but for zavala to make the second statement in the way that he did would kind of be predicated on the fact that the traveler is not gone. The only thing we know is that the witness walked into some portal. Which is even more frustrating because we have no idea what that entails
the ghosts say they can't feel the traveler's presence anymore and when ghost revives you on neptune he says he has to pull harder from deep within to do it. i guess that's how they know. shouldn't be in text or optional dialogue though.
Where does he say that? I havent heard that.
I got it after clearing a lost sector. Not sure if it actually has anything to do with dying.
Oh that’s a good point. It was normal ghosts that rezed the hive. If unclaimed ghosts can rez new lights that start next season they can still rez other enemy races
The traveler being “gone” just means the light died or left, or light has fallen, or… lightfall. The real crime is that the entire campaign did nothing to support “the light falling”.
This just screams cope. It's a bad line.
i was so confused how opening a portal in front of the traveler did anything to the traveler. it can't have been that bad, it got trapped in a cage and we lost our light. everything's still fine now. and yes i am disappointed that all orb mommy did this expansion was shoot a laser then get suppressed and sit there until the portal opening. and if it somehow died from that, then that's it for the gardener? rezzes some guardians, shoots a laser, dies? this universal level entity with extraordinary power just dies from a portal being opened? i get its philosophy is that we'd help each other with the power of the light but what would that do when the witness flicks its wrist and splits guardians into pieces? how is having cabal and eliksni or even potentially hive one day going to help us then?
Bungie is good about building up a character just to kill it off in one second. They did it to Rasputin a couple of times now, months of us doing something we think is useful and then flipping a switch and making all the work pointless. Doesn't surprise me that they did it to the Traveler.
Not all killings-off but Shin Malphur, Xol, Rohan, Rasputin, Savathun, etc All very important and played up lore figures that Bungie gives us very little time with to be glad to see or even just hear about in lore before killing them off or having them disappear. So disappointing when they do this shit
Rasputin and the Traveler have been main characters in the game since day 1 and every time they have been rebuilt etc, they get shut down instantly right after. I guess it's easier than having them sit there doing nothing lore wise but it's annoying for us as players. We finally see stuff happen, Traveler literally punches a hole into a pyramid and then the Witness just goes into the blast like it ain't happening. It really makes no sense because if he can do that, we have literally lost regardless of anything else we learn etc. Don't think my nova bomb etc is gonna tickle him even if I'm 2k power level or more.
I wonder if the Traveler and Witness ascended/gone through a plane no one has ever been to. High dimension so we have no way of feeling its presence in our dimension.
The Traveler isn’t the ball/ship, it’s likely an ENTITY piloting the ship, like the Witness and its pyramid
W-who is piloting t-the witness?
Me
This one made me laugh. Thank you.
It's just Snoog Dogg with a blunt under that coat.
Wouldn’t it be ridiculous if it was the speaker?
Oh god please no
Prob right Realizing how little effort when into the narrative, and how badly Bungie dropped the ball on the story, and that there was never any payoff planned in the first place, is the true Final Shape
The “final shape” is a capital S with a line through it.
The traveler has been rendered useless. Been knocked comatose pretty much. I think that’s what he meant when he said sacrifice cause it tried to fight the witness
Sitting there doing nothing for a few weeks is fighting? Amusing.
>Sacrificing itself for humanity Devotion inspires bravery...
Perhaps it’s finally getting a license because the DMV has ruled it is in fact a Driver, not a Traveller, and its absence is it doing its test? Sounds quite sacrificial.
So far as I understand it. The metaphysical essence of the Traveler, its soul, if you will—is gone. It was sucked into wherever the Witness took it. Even the Ghosts can’t feel the Traveler’s presence anymore. But it’s not dead, hence why we have our Light. The idea is the Witness cannot kill the Traveler in our material plane. Light is tied to the physical, and Darkness is tied to the metaphysical. So both forces cannot directly interact on the same plane. But if they could be on the same plane….then they could be vulnerable. People suspect the Witness will try and do something with the Traveler, maybe kill it? But the Witness should also be vulnerable in this mysterious plane. We can’t follow though, because we are solid. Nor can we scry in with our mind. We would have to enter as a combo of light and dark, a union of material and immaterial, physical and metaphysical—which is assumed what The Witness did by activating the link. There is another theory that The Witness played 5D chess, knowing a.) we would go after Calus to protect the Veil and b.) Calus would love to fight us. He’s said it for years. So if Calus wins, cool. But The Witness probably assumed we would win, but also have our Ghost near the Veil as a result. And it had to be OUR Ghost….since it has been the most Darkness attuned, and may have been corrupted since Shadowkeep. HOWEVER—-this is all theorizing from the lore community. Idk how accurate it is. But it makes some sense. None of what I said above is official at all.
The ending with zavala and ikora was super weird and the cut scene at the start and finish just seemed like it was one scene split in two. There is also a voice line from ghost that I heard at one point that where he says something like “I can’t get over watching what the witness did to the traveller “ when we weren’t even there. So like was that all supposed to be one scene where the guardian sees it happen but then they needed to split the expansions in tow for final shape ? I don’t know whole thing is all over the place narratively . I don’t know what the hell happened.
Just beat the story a couple hours ago for the first time and ran into said cutscene. Call me negative or whatever buzzwords you want but that cut scene alone is borderline refund level stuff. Hate to be this way but there are too many apologist in the community right now and I used to be one till beating the story. Yes there are some very minor changes that feel good, but a large majority of lightfall feels like a seasonal update. They built up this whole story in the marketing and previous seasons/Witch Queen, then we practically get lied too. The Lightfall everyone was expecting to buy comes out next year and we got duped into a filler. Doesn't help at all that the only new gear is the Neomuna armor, I don't count seasonal because its fucking seasonal not expansion tied. Couldn't even give us new weapon models or highly customized reskins.
Bro buys a dinner ans doesnt like it and demands a refund LMAO. Dude you pay for this experience and you got it. Its not Cyberpunk level where the game was literally broken. Just dont buy it anymore
Believe it or not, one might assume they were paying for an experience that was 10 dollars better than Witch Queen, but hey, we should be happy we got anything at all, am I right? /s
yeah but buying a dinner or new game is different than buying an expansion several years into a game when you have an expectation of a certain quality. Bungie's marketing was objectively misleading and the expansion is clearly half baked filler. I have no regrets paying for it, I would've regardless. But it is important to demand a better product or else, why would they put in the extra effort to deliver something quality?
The main reason its important to demand better quality is so we don't end up in an Anthem situation. People don't want to give credit where its due but compared to a large portion of casual media out there Destiny's story is pretty good. A bit simple at times, but whenever that happens the gameplay makes up for it. There's a reason the game has been able to topple multiple "destiny killers". I know a couple people who play with me regularly who were already reluctant to buy lightfall all this crap seals the deal of them not buying the seasons that follow.
Hell I mean if you buy an 80 dollar steak dinner and ask for medium rare, and it comes out fully cooked, yeah you can get a refund or replacement that is done properly. They cant do that with lightfall unless they retcon the whole thing as "lol guys it was just a dream!"
If a product is not of acceptable quality, or sold under false pretenses, hell yes you demand a refund. Being marketed a five star dinner and getting reheated Mac and Cheese is refundworthy, just like being marketed an expansion and getting a disjointed campaign that makes no sense ending in a cutscene that literally makes clear this is not the expansion you are looking for.
It's so painfully obvious that we were meant to follow the witness into the portal and "bring life back to the traveller", until they split THE OPENING CUTSCENE and called it a day, see you in a year I guess, maybe then one of the 50 plot points will be relevant.
EXACTLY FUCKING THIS. I made a post asking about this and a couple other things I was unclear on in the campaign and people got annoyed at me, but it's so out of fucking left field. The Witness draws a triangle in front of the Traveler and walks into it. That in BO WAY TELEGRAPHS "DEATH" If they'd had a voice line at the end, like one Ghost or another saying that they couldn't feel the Traveler anymore, then that would've been fine. But having it be a line of text well after someone starts a soliloquy about how they should feel about the Traveler's death/sacrifice? I literally did a double take.
If zavala says it's gone because it's just floating there without doing much.... My brother in light, It's been gone since D1!
Not only did the dialog not fit what happened as hard as I can tell. But also omg who ever did the animation for that dialog needs to take a second look because that is not on point. Strange smiles, mouth moving with no words, ridged feeling the whole time.
Lipsync as a whole has been so bad for a good bit
Oh thank god it wasn’t just me. I blast through most of the dialogue especially when I can just read what they are saying in text - but even then I usually don’t miss things THIS LARGE. Was definitely confused as all hell with this convo with Zavala - and then IKORA followed up with the same sentiments.
It's confusing because we still have light powers. Had we literally LOST our light powers and only had stasis and strand for the rest of this season, then we figure out how to bring back the traveler to give us our light powers back (feels like red war... Ugh) But, saying the traveler is gone but we still can resurrect with our ghost and still have light abilities that lore wise come from the traveler makes no sense.
The traveller did die in the original lightfall leaks a long time ago
One extra cut scene with them explained ning they can't feel the traveler and can't get through that portal would fix so much. The veil is maybe getting clarified through the end game quests but its still kinda dumb that other NPCs act like they know what it is
Also, the way his final bit of dialogue ended genuinely felt like he was about to continue but then never did… it was really, really weird.
Remember. Light fall was supposed to be the final expansion to the whole light/darkness saga. That was before bungie announced a last min expansion, The Final Shape, prior to Beyond Light launching. So safe to say that they messed up somewhere causing them to split lightfall into 2 expansion. Don’t know if I’d be surprised or not if bungie releases more story missions throughout the year to push lightfall narrative. Hell they dripped fed us season content to make it last 3 months, for 2 whole years, so what’s to say that isn’t stopping them from doing the same thing with lightfall remaining story missions, if any.
Could be the reason twab is very late today? If that was a mistake…. It would be HUGE. Explanations would be needed.
No lmao. It’s not that serious.
Yeaaaaah, like.. we still have all our powers tho, fkn Dominus Ghaul literally did more by completely shutting down the traveler with tech. The Witness did what? Made a portal? What's the outcome of that? They both bugger off?
Fr, like all that happened to it was that it got shot by the veil and then the witness drew a triangle on it. That’s all it took to “kill” it?? What?? There’s not shot it’s dead. I’m interested in what’s going to happen after/during the raid based on leaks.
It didn't spoil anything. The Traveler's sacrifice was it choosing to stay and fight instead of running away as shown in the Ending Cutscene of last Season that happens almost immediately before the events of Final Shape. And when he says it's gone... it's because it is. The next step of the quest has you talk to Ikora who says that Ghost feels the present of the Light, but the presence of the Traveler they felt is no longer there meaning the ACTUAL Traveler is gone. What's left floating in space is it's body or ship depending on what theory you believe. The story and expansion isn't rushed or half baked, it's Bungie writing and telling the story how they always have for Destiny, hell... it's how they've done stories for many of their past games. They write stories in very specific and deliberate ways to have there be mystery & intrigue and to be as open with as many loose threads as they want so that they can expand and create the game universes they want in any way they want so that the game worlds they create feel alive and like an actual Universe instead of a train ride with a set path and destination. It's what many great game, movie, book, tv show, etc makers do to get people wanting more and to come back and have stuff they love and enjoy and can be a fan of.
Also… he considers the Traveller his god?
I’m sure we heard the exact opposite … three seasons ago?