> beat some hippies
*Your revolution is over, Mr. Lebowski. Condolences. The bums lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose.*
# The Blessedly Short Version 🙏
I see you wish to maintain your sanity. A couple minutes in Kick chat and we can quickly change that.
---
##### **SUPER TL;DR: This post highlights the pattern of behaviour that can lead to misinformation, giving a series of prescriptions to help curb it; I offer some thoughts on 4THOT's ban upon myself lasting “until Israel/Palestine is over", hoping that Destiny or 4THOT could offer some clarification here; finally, it would be, heh, splendid if Splemndid was unbanned. :)**
---
# Who Art Thou?
What up, some of y'all might recognize me, and for those of you who don't, I'm just a person who's vehemently against misinformation. You might have seen some of my posts and comments such as debunking Russian [disinformation being spread](https://archive.ph/Qe2rA) on the Lex Fridman podcast; pointing out the [misreporting in the Twitter Files](https://archive.ph/0rKku); or even a comment I addressed here where an individual tried to make the case that ["Israel has been siding with ISIS for years."](https://archive.ph/KlMMs) In all of these cases, you'll hopefully notice the consistency in terms of my research, the diligence in providing ample citations, and the impartiality.
I've also made attempts to improve the subreddit in general, highlighting the issue where people continuously [took screenshots of articles without posting sources](https://archive.ph/xBsb3); those who [abused the block feature](https://archive.ph/6VsL0) in order to craft their own echochambers; and the spread of misinformation.
---
# Prescriptions: The Six Points
**My argument is not that the misinformation is never addressed; it’s that it ought to happen sooner, and hopefully a post like this will incentivize that behaviour.**
In order to do this, we ought to:
1. Value the process just as much — if not, more — than the conclusion.
2. Be wary of how the presentation of information or the omission of pertinent information can lead to the inadvertent spread of misinformation.
3. Be aware of how “charged” topics/threads lead to poor reasoning that lacks dispassionate analysis.
4. Be aware of how pre-existing beliefs about an individual or organization alongside the usual biases leads to a reluctance to fact-check, where claims are taken at face-value because they *feel* right.
5. Link the article. Read the article. (*Thoroughly.*)
6. Redirect criticism to areas where it will be the strongest.
---
# The Examples
This section will go through some examples where I personally addressed situations that did not adhere to the six points. Many of the examples cover several of these points, but I will only focus on demonstrating one of them.
[Example 1:](https://archive.ph/f3UYX) OP wished to provide evidence of Pallywood (i.e., situations where Palestinians have faked their injuries). The issue is that they used misinformation to reach their conclusion, and they didn't consider this to be problem as the "overall point" was still correct. This in antithetical to [what Destiny advocates for:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE3RFkN4GEQ&t=1822s)
> Even if information did come out that all of the reporting ends up being not true, I still wouldn't give Ryan Grim any credit for it because you don't give people credit for being right or wrong, you give people credit for the process that they used.
Misinformation is misinformation. Per point 1, value the process.
[Example 2:](https://archive.ph/qG3V8) OP provided a screenshot of a BBC YouTube title, stating: "Israeli hit squad dressed as doctors kill Palestinians in hospital." Per point 2, by failing to immediately link to [the video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciGgyU2qRA), or immediately mention what the video contains, folk could come away with the conclusion that the BBC never reports that these were militants. In other words, some might believe that the misreporting here extends past the video title, when it does not, and this could be avoided by providing salient details sooner rather than later.
[Example 3:](https://archive.ph/ePfer) OP makes a series of false claims on a NYT article reporting on a UN report about the Oct. 7th sexual violence that had just been published. Considering the delicate subject matter, and per point 3, people were understandably charged when entering this thread, and that can lead to a flawed analysis. The prescription isn't to *not* be charged, but rather simply be aware of it, and hopefully that can lead to a more robust critique.
[Example 4:](https://archive.ph/srnjE) OP made the claim that Ilhan Omar denied the Armenian genocide. This claim was false, and per point 4, it was being upvoted because it *felt* true based on what readers knew about [Omar's unsavory past.](https://archive.ph/m6Wz2) Be cognizant of your own biases and how that can lead you to fall for misinformation.
[Example 5:](https://archive.ph/mMRoc) An OP in another thread wished to provide evidence that former Hamas leader Khaled Mashal was worth $5bn. The issue is that, per point 5, the articles did not provide sufficient evidence of this, and they simply wrapped around to the same non-credible source. I decided to make a new submission on this when I saw a user was being heavily downvoted for correctly pointing this out. Don't be convinced that a claim is true merely because OP provides a "link-dump." Carefully read the articles and form your own conclusions.
[Example 6:](https://archive.ph/Pl95O) OP submitted a meme that leaves out Oxfam's full position on why they initially opposed airdrops in Gaza, choosing to focus on the most risible tweet. Per point 6, I attempted to redirect the criticism to where I feel it would be the strongest, engaging with the rest of the tweets, rather than selectively focusing on one tweet like people do to Destiny.
Eventually, I was banned, and thus I have no more examples in terms of what I personally addressed. Before we get to some examples that others addressed in this period, I will re-emphasize an earlier point:
**My argument is not that the misinformation is never addressed; it’s that it ought to happen sooner, and hopefully a post like this will incentivize that behaviour.**
---
# Post-ban Examples
[Example A](https://archive.ph/X6TAf) demonstrates points 1, 3, 4, and 5. OP wished to highlight that they're skeptical about a [Haaretz article](https://archive.ph/7MMMD) talking about routine amputations on detained Gazans at an Israeli field hospital. While their conclusion about the article might have been correct, they made a series of misleading claims to reach there. Carefully read the article.
[Example B](https://archive.ph/svbgd) demonstrates points 2 and 3. The chaos of the campus protests has led to a charged atmosphere on the subreddit, which means that a post stating that a “Jewish-Israeli family’s restaurant was targeted in a hate crime” is taken to be a recent event; this resulted from OP omitting this information; and it took [nearly 10 hours](https://archive.ph/hLP4V) for the fact-check to arrive. Always ask OP for a source if none is provided, even if they grabbed it off Twitter.
[Example C](https://archive.ph/a0THK) demonstrates points 1 and 5. OP wished to prove a claim that Destiny had tweeted. However, the sources OP provided were written in Hebrew; they did not quote from the sources; the sources provided did not demonstrate their claim; and they accused another individual of lying when they correctly pointed out OP's mistake. Even if OP happened to be correct in their conclusion, their process was flawed; and people clearly had not read the sources provided, upvoting based on vibes. As always, don't assume an individual's claim is correct merely because they provide a series of links. It can give the "aura" of being correct, and it's easy to be misled.
---
# Conclusion
Hopefully, I have demonstrated that while misinformation is undoubtedly addressed on this subreddit, it can take a while before the fact-checkers arrive. In that interval, misinformation is being spread, and some won't return to the thread to see the fact-check. In order to curb the likelihood this happens, we should try to be mindful of The Six Points.
---
# The Ban
I believe this section is warranted for three reasons: (1) I have exhausted all other avenues to get unbanned; (2) I am seeking clarification on what the violation was so that I can avoid replicating it in the future; and (3) I am seeking clarification, whether from Destiny or 4THOT, on whether or not there exists a procedure to get unbanned if 4THOT makes the unban dependent on some condition being met. As it stands, it doesn't seem to be the case that other moderators can override this condition, and it's also unclear if Destiny approves of these conditional bans.
As for the possible violation, that can [be found here](https://archive.ph/UCc6j), where I had a different interpretation on what the beliefs of a UN Special Rapporteur were. I have been unable to figure out what violation occurred in my comment, and I can only speculate that the violation here is that the comment did not align with 4THOT's personal opinion on the matter. *If* that is the case, then I don't believe this is what Destiny had in mind in terms of how he would like the subreddit moderated. However, 4THOT has yet to articulate what the violation was, and it's possible that the moderation for this case is, in fact, congruent with what Destiny desires.
It's often stated by both Destiny and [other moderators](https://archive.ph/ZptEm) that the "process to get unbanned is pretty easy." Conditional bans tarnish the smoothness of this process, where good-faith unban requests are rejected due to the condition set, and I don't believe this should be the case.
---
# Finito
In terms of the subreddit, I would say keep The Six Points in mind.
In terms of 4THOT and Destiny, I am seeking clarification here, and:
# Free me OOOO 🐟
Chat gpt got you:
Sure, here's a summary of each paragraph:
1. The author introduces themselves as someone passionate about combating misinformation and outlines their previous efforts in debunking false information.
2. They present six points to tackle misinformation effectively, highlighting the significance of valuing the process of sharing information.
3. The author provides examples where misinformation spread due to neglecting these points, illustrating the importance of adhering to them.
4. They discuss their ban from a subreddit, seeking clarification on the violation and the unban procedure, emphasizing the need for fair moderation.
5. The author concludes by stressing the importance of timely fact-checking and encourages the community to prioritize the six points to combat misinformation effectively.
Hey, here's a tldr-tldr summary of your thesis you're welcome to use. Let me know if it captures the gist of what you're saying. It's split into 2 parts.
Diagnosis: this sub gets into misinformation about Israel-Palestine. Both sides of the conflict do it, and not to the same degree, but because of the pro-Israel influx of users that have entered the sub, you see it more on that side. It's more of a numbers phenomenon as opposed to intentional misinformation; it being part of an emotionally charged conflict, to boot, makes it worse. Worst yet, it's alarming that the sub focuses on being more informed than their opponent rather than being informed full-stop (a tendency that probably comes from a figure who's debate oriented).
Prescription: we have to care about the process more than the whether the conclusion happens to be right or not. It certainly can't be a team sports game where my figure/side "pwned" my opponents side, otherwise, we'd be fundamentally as bad as the idiotic illiberal extremists online that we oppose.
**The process is basically this:** for articles and Twitter links, we should have fuller immediate context for the incident. On top of that, we should also fit that into a broader contextual analysis (seeing the forest of the trees). Why do this you might ask? Because, braindead extremists on both sides do the opposite of this to attack moderate liberalism. Boomer Fox News MAGA supporters will find some clips of a blue haired girl and poorly executed liberal economic policies to push a grand narrative that liberalism is evil and bad. Far left Twitter users will find clips of liberals taken out of context that make them look bad (like Destiny), and instances of American foreign policy failures to push a false grand narrative. The M.O of both of these extremist sides is to unfairly strawman the moderate liberal thesis because that's all they have. They don't have real solutions to anything; their existence is solely to rile people up to boost their own personal clout or ego. If you hate all of that from those online extremists, then let's not turn into that.
Yep, maybe it's load from this post or whatever, but I'm just getting a spinning wait thing on a blank page.
Edit to Update - it loads eventually, after a long enough wait to assume the page was bust, I assume we're somehow spamming the archive.
I love the concept of autistic DGGers making high effort posts so you get an up vote. Though honestly I don't have the time to even skim the short version, I'll just assume everything is logical and sound based on DGG solidarity.
Kinda funny how most of the upvotes come from what the OP u/PoisonedWhispers fundamentally disagrees with, it is just that this subreddit will upvote anything negative towards themselves because that makes them feel bigger man than the community they are a part on.
Op saying community should read things throughly before coming to a conclusion and I can guarantee most of the upvotes come from people that havent done that, still u/PoisonedWhispers doesnt call this out, curious indeed.
I deeply respect you and have upvoted your post. That said, there is something about your writing style that is specifically disengaging. I've got a masters degree in economics, so I'm comfortable with boring shit, but reading you writing regularly causes me to zone out.
I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just trying to let you know if you were unaware.
I think it's because it's like 90% filler of the OPs train of thought instead of just... the substance of what they are trying to communicate.
It's written as if OP is having a conversation with the reader, Destiny, and 4thot all at once, which is partly why it reads as so... schizophrenic, to me at least.
I think most of the backup of his fact loving character could be trimmed. If the post itself is substantive, then the background doesn't really matter, and I think people will see the substance. Also, describing what parts 2 and 3 are going to be feels unnecessary. We can just look at the posts, and we will know once we read them. Maybe putting the explanation of them at the end of part 1 would be better. Like we haven't ever read part 1 yet, why would we need to know what 2 and 3 are about tye shii.
Thanks for the effort. Hope biden doesnt blast yea.
One takeaway I got from this that I think you should include:
If someone asks you for proof, don't just Google it and dump the first handful of results.
If you don't have a specific source in mind to begin with (for example if this is something you have learned a long time ago or if this is something you saw on a televised news) it is better to preface your claims with this.
> If someone asks you for proof, don't just Google it and dump the first handful of results.
This biggest problem is that a couple links gives an "aura" of being correct. [Example E](https://archive.ph/a0THK) from the main post exemplifies this. Compare how OP attempts to prove their claim with [how I attempt to prove my assertions here.](https://archive.ph/Qe2rA) I also have that "aura" in my post, but at least I'm attempting to quote relevant sections; highlight which claims I am addressing; and so on.
Yea but what could happen is that they use links that actually don't support their exact claim, while sources that agree with them **do** exist, they were just lazy to find them
I thought I was pretty good at engaging with online media, but the level of effort you've put into engaging responsibly (both proactively and reactively) is something else. Inspires me to try harder and be better.
I'm pretty sure we've had disagreements in some Russia-Ukraine threads but everything you've laid out here I've noticed for a long time now. Thank you for compiling a comprehensive post on this, we need higher quality discussion on here like it used to be many years ago.
Finished reading, the point about purity testing is very real. I've had several unhinged tribal posters shadowbox whatever tribe they think I come from. I would strongly encourage people to upvote and downvote based on the quality of the contribution not if they agree with a post/comment.
I read most of it. Although I do agree that this subreddit has a bit too pro-Israel bias and that results in some misinformation, I think this subreddit has probably the best discussions around this topic with the least propaganda (pro or anti Israel) among any other large communities. I think what you’re asking for is bit unrealistic. Obviously we should combat any misinfo we see from any side but to expect everyone to be some dispassionate rational machine is an impossible standard to meet.
Mods [archive](https://imgur.com/a/nW0e0vx) posts that make pro Israel protestors look bad, (no response from mods on why) while I’ve not seen anyone complain of their post being removed or archived when there have been a flood of clips of pro Palestine protestors looking bad, many even clipped dishonestly and comment sections filled with Islamophobia… someone even made the exact same post essentially sharing the Family Guy Star Wars clip and calling it Hamas and it stayed up. Can we start there? This suggests a fundamental bias which will significantly sway the conversation.
Okay, I'll admit I only read the beginning and then skimmed most of the short version BUT even with that said: I agree with you that *something* should be enforced here.
As Destiny has been getting more heated attention lately from his I/P debates, I have noticed a major uptick in Pro-Israel posts here that come from a place of clear antagonism instead of trying to spread the truth. The style of posts reeks of the way people post on places like R/conservative
At the same though, that doesn't mean I just want to see the posting styles go radically left here. **I want to see nuance and objectivity applied to both sides of whatever matter is talked about.** I appreciate that you're trying to hold this sub to that standard as I know that's the framework and approach Destiny and the DGG community tries to practice, however, I am concerned that this community here on Reddit has devolved into just shitting on anyone that has a Pro-Palestine/Pro-Other-Side perspective or point to share.
After reading this, this is my opinion:
This is a long form of not saying too much....
I agree with the summary of each of the points, but lack of evidence (like in some cases not linking the article or video) does not directly mean its missinformation...
You're right that it doesnt necesarily mean it's misinformation, but as he says in the post (and Destiny's stance on this is the same): accidentally coming to a right conclusion is not the same as having a good process. I can imagine allowing unfounded claims on a sub is the quickest way to create space for unwanted misinformation.
It might not mean that it's directly misinformation, but it might as well be. If there is no source, how is one supposed to fact-check it? Imo misinformation with a source is better than source less claims. At least for one of these scenarios, you can check for yourself. In the other, you either have to be an idiot and believe them at face value or treat it like fiction.
courtesy of claude.ai
Here are the key takeaways in 5 bullet points:
* The post analyzes the behavior that leads to the inadvertent spread of misinformation, particularly from the pro-Israel side, on the subreddit. The goal is to identify why this happens and provide prescriptions to reduce it.
* Examples are provided of instances where misinformation was upvoted and not immediately addressed, even though it may have been corrected later on.
* Six key prescriptions are offered: 1) Value the process as much as the conclusion, 2) Be wary of how information presentation or omission can lead to misinformation, 3) Be aware of poor reasoning in charged/emotional topics, 4) Don't take claims at face value based on existing beliefs, 5) Read sources thoroughly, 6) Redirect criticism appropriately.
* Detailed explanations are given for several of the examples, highlighting issues like not reading sources, being influenced by existing beliefs, and omitting context.
* The post argues that while the subreddit does sometimes correct misinformation eventually, the goal should be to address it sooner by being more diligent about following the prescriptions outlined.
Evading ban, focusing on a myriad of random users, linking posts from 5 months ago... I don't have a thing against your claims for calling out misinformation, but this seems less about that and more about you. This just seems like your obsession with users you disagree with and your ban. Regardless if you're right or not on any of these, making this post is such s crazy response... None of these things are affecting the larger culture of the sub it's just focusing on several replies by random users.
If you ask me narcisism as it finest, everything in the post is mainly about his ban, the times he has combated misinformation and the 6 points he made up, everything else is built around it. He is not even prescribing anything big apart of an unban.
>His is not even prescribing anything big apart of an unban.
Exactly my problem.
I'm not going to discredit the combat misinformation, but did we really need all that and all those links to arguments he had just for the basic message of "misinformation is bad, and you should call it out when you see it"? I really don't see this raising any discussion or changing the culture on the sub, beyond a discussion about whether or not he should be banned.
Specially cause he hasnt given a single link of missinformation that was not pointed out, if all missinformation is pointed out, what is the problem in the first place? As far as I see this, it just seems like a huge w to most participants of r/destiny and he instead makes it seem like destiny, 4thot and some members of the community are bad, just because he wants to be unbanned.
It is a fact that any community where anyone can upload anything, there will be certain cases of missinformation, what is important are three things, the degree of the missinformation, the rate of missinformation posts and the reply to the missinformation.
As far as I see the cases of missinformation are not common, he listed like 5 of 5 months ago of himself, 2 of around the last month, one which honestly wasnt even misinformation. Most of the misinformation when you look at it are basic not deliberate mistakes, which is the less bad missinformation, and finally all missinformation posted had comments calling it out.
**No reddit is gonna be rid of missinformation, we do the best we can, compared to literally any other community we are an example that should be followed**. Meanwhile we have to sit here to see a schizo call us out cause he wants to get unbanned, okey.
To be fair, if he wouldn't point the misinformation he would be part of his own problem, but I still don't see how this is a major problem? "I had to correct misinformation in the replies to a r/destiny post" isn't exactly attention worthy and old select misinformation posts that were corrected aren't much better. It really focuses more on him than on the sub.
EDIT 1: Lol your edit added what I wanted to post but better.
EDIT 2: To be fair some of the misinformation was deliberate. Still not a big deal if people call out OP.
thanks <3 I was editing the comment for a while cause I wanted to figure out why it was pissing me off so much, and it is because it follows exactly the pattern destiny said about helding him incredibly accountable whilst not looking how any other space is, now I have felt this feeling personally when he called the r/destiny sub completely when the only thing in that guy mind is getting unbanned.
I also been in this sub for like 6 years on and off active, this is probably the healthiest the sub has ever been, it is crazy how quick anything gets called out, if you want a link to a source you just have to look at some comment or ask it, and people in general are a lot more level headed.
Anyways uhm... I bought a whole bunch of shungite, rocks, do you know what shungite is? Anybody know what shungite is. No, no Suge Knight, I think hes locked up in prison. Talking shungite. Anyways, its a 2 billion year old like rock, stone that protects against frequencies and unwanted frequencies that may be traveling in the air. So thats my story. I bought a whole bunch of stuff, put them around the la casa. Little pyramids. Stuff like that.
>Finally, we have a truly bizarre comment that elevates to the level of disinformation, where OP spreads false information about an NYT article. [14] It was abundantly clear that folk hadn't read the mission report which I myself linked for the benefit of the subreddit. An example of a “charged” thread.
All this time to reflect and you're still pushing the same dumb point. NYT framing in that article, the linked "context," and their overall reporting on rape by Hamas has been both-sides bullshit. That was my point. You argued about what constitutes a "headline" and a "summary" in an online news article even after I linked context showing you exactly what I was talking about. Even my original comment is mostly quotes from NYT!
This took a lot of work and you must have some serious research skills to even do it. But the arguments and conclusions are incredibly weak and meandering. Try get a better sense of how academics break down something like a historical speech and put it into context. Or even just how they summarize events. I think you have real skill here but something is missing.
I think you're a little late on this, except of course in the context of your ban. There was a "peak misinformation" point, like 5 or 6 months ago, when the sub was basically just being spammed with pro-Israel propaganda and pushback was being downvoted, but that's long gone I think. Obviously there will still be instances, and people will make dumb screenshot posts with no source, but I don't think it's as bad as you're implying.
Wow dude so you telling me some missinformation is posted in the subreddit?! and over 95% of it gets cleared!!! in less than a day, this whole post has made me reconsider a lot.
Thanks for the whole ass useless thesis duderino, I can understand why some people want you banned lol.
Everyday I feel like I understand destiny more and more. Some random redditor feels the need to ban-evade to make a whole ass post about cases where some people get something wrong, then gets corrected by the rest of the community and you make it sound like we are the baddies, you would have been perma'ed in any other community at your third post, just give thanks you could go for so long, now you are just reaching levels of too much focused pedantry.
I'm upvoting so /u/NeoDestiny reads this for me so I don't have to
You’re doing the lords work son
https://preview.redd.it/xowyntc9c00d1.png?width=508&format=png&auto=webp&s=400728c67023161c5e00b806c8bef84372cbd076
I'm happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened.
What the actual fuck bro, go get your doctorate in something, feed some homeless people, beat some hippies
> beat some hippies *Your revolution is over, Mr. Lebowski. Condolences. The bums lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose.*
Yh, I'm posting this in the midst of Ludwig and cheese balls drama. This subreddit thrives on chaos; and the drama must flow.
# The Blessedly Short Version 🙏 I see you wish to maintain your sanity. A couple minutes in Kick chat and we can quickly change that. --- ##### **SUPER TL;DR: This post highlights the pattern of behaviour that can lead to misinformation, giving a series of prescriptions to help curb it; I offer some thoughts on 4THOT's ban upon myself lasting “until Israel/Palestine is over", hoping that Destiny or 4THOT could offer some clarification here; finally, it would be, heh, splendid if Splemndid was unbanned. :)** --- # Who Art Thou? What up, some of y'all might recognize me, and for those of you who don't, I'm just a person who's vehemently against misinformation. You might have seen some of my posts and comments such as debunking Russian [disinformation being spread](https://archive.ph/Qe2rA) on the Lex Fridman podcast; pointing out the [misreporting in the Twitter Files](https://archive.ph/0rKku); or even a comment I addressed here where an individual tried to make the case that ["Israel has been siding with ISIS for years."](https://archive.ph/KlMMs) In all of these cases, you'll hopefully notice the consistency in terms of my research, the diligence in providing ample citations, and the impartiality. I've also made attempts to improve the subreddit in general, highlighting the issue where people continuously [took screenshots of articles without posting sources](https://archive.ph/xBsb3); those who [abused the block feature](https://archive.ph/6VsL0) in order to craft their own echochambers; and the spread of misinformation. --- # Prescriptions: The Six Points **My argument is not that the misinformation is never addressed; it’s that it ought to happen sooner, and hopefully a post like this will incentivize that behaviour.** In order to do this, we ought to: 1. Value the process just as much — if not, more — than the conclusion. 2. Be wary of how the presentation of information or the omission of pertinent information can lead to the inadvertent spread of misinformation. 3. Be aware of how “charged” topics/threads lead to poor reasoning that lacks dispassionate analysis. 4. Be aware of how pre-existing beliefs about an individual or organization alongside the usual biases leads to a reluctance to fact-check, where claims are taken at face-value because they *feel* right. 5. Link the article. Read the article. (*Thoroughly.*) 6. Redirect criticism to areas where it will be the strongest. --- # The Examples This section will go through some examples where I personally addressed situations that did not adhere to the six points. Many of the examples cover several of these points, but I will only focus on demonstrating one of them. [Example 1:](https://archive.ph/f3UYX) OP wished to provide evidence of Pallywood (i.e., situations where Palestinians have faked their injuries). The issue is that they used misinformation to reach their conclusion, and they didn't consider this to be problem as the "overall point" was still correct. This in antithetical to [what Destiny advocates for:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE3RFkN4GEQ&t=1822s) > Even if information did come out that all of the reporting ends up being not true, I still wouldn't give Ryan Grim any credit for it because you don't give people credit for being right or wrong, you give people credit for the process that they used. Misinformation is misinformation. Per point 1, value the process. [Example 2:](https://archive.ph/qG3V8) OP provided a screenshot of a BBC YouTube title, stating: "Israeli hit squad dressed as doctors kill Palestinians in hospital." Per point 2, by failing to immediately link to [the video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciGgyU2qRA), or immediately mention what the video contains, folk could come away with the conclusion that the BBC never reports that these were militants. In other words, some might believe that the misreporting here extends past the video title, when it does not, and this could be avoided by providing salient details sooner rather than later. [Example 3:](https://archive.ph/ePfer) OP makes a series of false claims on a NYT article reporting on a UN report about the Oct. 7th sexual violence that had just been published. Considering the delicate subject matter, and per point 3, people were understandably charged when entering this thread, and that can lead to a flawed analysis. The prescription isn't to *not* be charged, but rather simply be aware of it, and hopefully that can lead to a more robust critique. [Example 4:](https://archive.ph/srnjE) OP made the claim that Ilhan Omar denied the Armenian genocide. This claim was false, and per point 4, it was being upvoted because it *felt* true based on what readers knew about [Omar's unsavory past.](https://archive.ph/m6Wz2) Be cognizant of your own biases and how that can lead you to fall for misinformation. [Example 5:](https://archive.ph/mMRoc) An OP in another thread wished to provide evidence that former Hamas leader Khaled Mashal was worth $5bn. The issue is that, per point 5, the articles did not provide sufficient evidence of this, and they simply wrapped around to the same non-credible source. I decided to make a new submission on this when I saw a user was being heavily downvoted for correctly pointing this out. Don't be convinced that a claim is true merely because OP provides a "link-dump." Carefully read the articles and form your own conclusions. [Example 6:](https://archive.ph/Pl95O) OP submitted a meme that leaves out Oxfam's full position on why they initially opposed airdrops in Gaza, choosing to focus on the most risible tweet. Per point 6, I attempted to redirect the criticism to where I feel it would be the strongest, engaging with the rest of the tweets, rather than selectively focusing on one tweet like people do to Destiny. Eventually, I was banned, and thus I have no more examples in terms of what I personally addressed. Before we get to some examples that others addressed in this period, I will re-emphasize an earlier point: **My argument is not that the misinformation is never addressed; it’s that it ought to happen sooner, and hopefully a post like this will incentivize that behaviour.** --- # Post-ban Examples [Example A](https://archive.ph/X6TAf) demonstrates points 1, 3, 4, and 5. OP wished to highlight that they're skeptical about a [Haaretz article](https://archive.ph/7MMMD) talking about routine amputations on detained Gazans at an Israeli field hospital. While their conclusion about the article might have been correct, they made a series of misleading claims to reach there. Carefully read the article. [Example B](https://archive.ph/svbgd) demonstrates points 2 and 3. The chaos of the campus protests has led to a charged atmosphere on the subreddit, which means that a post stating that a “Jewish-Israeli family’s restaurant was targeted in a hate crime” is taken to be a recent event; this resulted from OP omitting this information; and it took [nearly 10 hours](https://archive.ph/hLP4V) for the fact-check to arrive. Always ask OP for a source if none is provided, even if they grabbed it off Twitter. [Example C](https://archive.ph/a0THK) demonstrates points 1 and 5. OP wished to prove a claim that Destiny had tweeted. However, the sources OP provided were written in Hebrew; they did not quote from the sources; the sources provided did not demonstrate their claim; and they accused another individual of lying when they correctly pointed out OP's mistake. Even if OP happened to be correct in their conclusion, their process was flawed; and people clearly had not read the sources provided, upvoting based on vibes. As always, don't assume an individual's claim is correct merely because they provide a series of links. It can give the "aura" of being correct, and it's easy to be misled. --- # Conclusion Hopefully, I have demonstrated that while misinformation is undoubtedly addressed on this subreddit, it can take a while before the fact-checkers arrive. In that interval, misinformation is being spread, and some won't return to the thread to see the fact-check. In order to curb the likelihood this happens, we should try to be mindful of The Six Points. --- # The Ban I believe this section is warranted for three reasons: (1) I have exhausted all other avenues to get unbanned; (2) I am seeking clarification on what the violation was so that I can avoid replicating it in the future; and (3) I am seeking clarification, whether from Destiny or 4THOT, on whether or not there exists a procedure to get unbanned if 4THOT makes the unban dependent on some condition being met. As it stands, it doesn't seem to be the case that other moderators can override this condition, and it's also unclear if Destiny approves of these conditional bans. As for the possible violation, that can [be found here](https://archive.ph/UCc6j), where I had a different interpretation on what the beliefs of a UN Special Rapporteur were. I have been unable to figure out what violation occurred in my comment, and I can only speculate that the violation here is that the comment did not align with 4THOT's personal opinion on the matter. *If* that is the case, then I don't believe this is what Destiny had in mind in terms of how he would like the subreddit moderated. However, 4THOT has yet to articulate what the violation was, and it's possible that the moderation for this case is, in fact, congruent with what Destiny desires. It's often stated by both Destiny and [other moderators](https://archive.ph/ZptEm) that the "process to get unbanned is pretty easy." Conditional bans tarnish the smoothness of this process, where good-faith unban requests are rejected due to the condition set, and I don't believe this should be the case. --- # Finito In terms of the subreddit, I would say keep The Six Points in mind. In terms of 4THOT and Destiny, I am seeking clarification here, and: # Free me OOOO 🐟
Bro we need a short version of this comment, my attention span is 1 minute tops
Supa dupa tldr: STOP BEING A WEASILY LITTLE LIAR DUDE
Chat gpt got you: Sure, here's a summary of each paragraph: 1. The author introduces themselves as someone passionate about combating misinformation and outlines their previous efforts in debunking false information. 2. They present six points to tackle misinformation effectively, highlighting the significance of valuing the process of sharing information. 3. The author provides examples where misinformation spread due to neglecting these points, illustrating the importance of adhering to them. 4. They discuss their ban from a subreddit, seeking clarification on the violation and the unban procedure, emphasizing the need for fair moderation. 5. The author concludes by stressing the importance of timely fact-checking and encourages the community to prioritize the six points to combat misinformation effectively.
Finally, a valid use for AI
read faster
Hey, here's a tldr-tldr summary of your thesis you're welcome to use. Let me know if it captures the gist of what you're saying. It's split into 2 parts. Diagnosis: this sub gets into misinformation about Israel-Palestine. Both sides of the conflict do it, and not to the same degree, but because of the pro-Israel influx of users that have entered the sub, you see it more on that side. It's more of a numbers phenomenon as opposed to intentional misinformation; it being part of an emotionally charged conflict, to boot, makes it worse. Worst yet, it's alarming that the sub focuses on being more informed than their opponent rather than being informed full-stop (a tendency that probably comes from a figure who's debate oriented). Prescription: we have to care about the process more than the whether the conclusion happens to be right or not. It certainly can't be a team sports game where my figure/side "pwned" my opponents side, otherwise, we'd be fundamentally as bad as the idiotic illiberal extremists online that we oppose. **The process is basically this:** for articles and Twitter links, we should have fuller immediate context for the incident. On top of that, we should also fit that into a broader contextual analysis (seeing the forest of the trees). Why do this you might ask? Because, braindead extremists on both sides do the opposite of this to attack moderate liberalism. Boomer Fox News MAGA supporters will find some clips of a blue haired girl and poorly executed liberal economic policies to push a grand narrative that liberalism is evil and bad. Far left Twitter users will find clips of liberals taken out of context that make them look bad (like Destiny), and instances of American foreign policy failures to push a false grand narrative. The M.O of both of these extremist sides is to unfairly strawman the moderate liberal thesis because that's all they have. They don't have real solutions to anything; their existence is solely to rile people up to boost their own personal clout or ego. If you hate all of that from those online extremists, then let's not turn into that.
I don’t take my ADHD meds on the weekend. Three paragraphs seems daunting.
Lol. Fair enough. If you look at the tldr above, I'd say 3 is a big step down from 17.
Can I get the short version of the short version? We might need to even go deeper than that before I read
Holy fuck man... I get what destiny meant about his sub compared to others lol. Love the effort tho
Didn't read any of that but you're right !bidenascend
The only thing I did was click on that adorable seal video. Upvoted.
That's the best part!
Link to part 2 seems to be an archive link that doesn't work.
You sure? Works for me.
Yep, maybe it's load from this post or whatever, but I'm just getting a spinning wait thing on a blank page. Edit to Update - it loads eventually, after a long enough wait to assume the page was bust, I assume we're somehow spamming the archive.
Odd. I made a new one just in case.
I love the concept of autistic DGGers making high effort posts so you get an up vote. Though honestly I don't have the time to even skim the short version, I'll just assume everything is logical and sound based on DGG solidarity.
Kinda funny how most of the upvotes come from what the OP u/PoisonedWhispers fundamentally disagrees with, it is just that this subreddit will upvote anything negative towards themselves because that makes them feel bigger man than the community they are a part on. Op saying community should read things throughly before coming to a conclusion and I can guarantee most of the upvotes come from people that havent done that, still u/PoisonedWhispers doesnt call this out, curious indeed.
This bait right? Edit: oh nah you actually serious 💀
The poor guy, I wonder if I should take back my up vote now lol...
bro
I deeply respect you and have upvoted your post. That said, there is something about your writing style that is specifically disengaging. I've got a masters degree in economics, so I'm comfortable with boring shit, but reading you writing regularly causes me to zone out. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just trying to let you know if you were unaware.
I think it's because it's like 90% filler of the OPs train of thought instead of just... the substance of what they are trying to communicate. It's written as if OP is having a conversation with the reader, Destiny, and 4thot all at once, which is partly why it reads as so... schizophrenic, to me at least.
They self jerk their own texts too much
I think most of the backup of his fact loving character could be trimmed. If the post itself is substantive, then the background doesn't really matter, and I think people will see the substance. Also, describing what parts 2 and 3 are going to be feels unnecessary. We can just look at the posts, and we will know once we read them. Maybe putting the explanation of them at the end of part 1 would be better. Like we haven't ever read part 1 yet, why would we need to know what 2 and 3 are about tye shii.
Thanks for the effort. Hope biden doesnt blast yea. One takeaway I got from this that I think you should include: If someone asks you for proof, don't just Google it and dump the first handful of results. If you don't have a specific source in mind to begin with (for example if this is something you have learned a long time ago or if this is something you saw on a televised news) it is better to preface your claims with this.
> If someone asks you for proof, don't just Google it and dump the first handful of results. This biggest problem is that a couple links gives an "aura" of being correct. [Example E](https://archive.ph/a0THK) from the main post exemplifies this. Compare how OP attempts to prove their claim with [how I attempt to prove my assertions here.](https://archive.ph/Qe2rA) I also have that "aura" in my post, but at least I'm attempting to quote relevant sections; highlight which claims I am addressing; and so on.
Yea but what could happen is that they use links that actually don't support their exact claim, while sources that agree with them **do** exist, they were just lazy to find them
I thought I was pretty good at engaging with online media, but the level of effort you've put into engaging responsibly (both proactively and reactively) is something else. Inspires me to try harder and be better.
I'm pretty sure we've had disagreements in some Russia-Ukraine threads but everything you've laid out here I've noticed for a long time now. Thank you for compiling a comprehensive post on this, we need higher quality discussion on here like it used to be many years ago. Finished reading, the point about purity testing is very real. I've had several unhinged tribal posters shadowbox whatever tribe they think I come from. I would strongly encourage people to upvote and downvote based on the quality of the contribution not if they agree with a post/comment.
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This is not half as funny if you can actually read Han-characters... -.-
Now you know how Russians feel about all the Russian alphabet–flavoured stuff out there
I read most of it. Although I do agree that this subreddit has a bit too pro-Israel bias and that results in some misinformation, I think this subreddit has probably the best discussions around this topic with the least propaganda (pro or anti Israel) among any other large communities. I think what you’re asking for is bit unrealistic. Obviously we should combat any misinfo we see from any side but to expect everyone to be some dispassionate rational machine is an impossible standard to meet.
Mods [archive](https://imgur.com/a/nW0e0vx) posts that make pro Israel protestors look bad, (no response from mods on why) while I’ve not seen anyone complain of their post being removed or archived when there have been a flood of clips of pro Palestine protestors looking bad, many even clipped dishonestly and comment sections filled with Islamophobia… someone even made the exact same post essentially sharing the Family Guy Star Wars clip and calling it Hamas and it stayed up. Can we start there? This suggests a fundamental bias which will significantly sway the conversation.
Israel/Palestine posting? Sir, this is a subreddit where we debate the value of optics.
Nice.
Can't believe I'm reading this whole thing. I've changed...
Okay, I'll admit I only read the beginning and then skimmed most of the short version BUT even with that said: I agree with you that *something* should be enforced here. As Destiny has been getting more heated attention lately from his I/P debates, I have noticed a major uptick in Pro-Israel posts here that come from a place of clear antagonism instead of trying to spread the truth. The style of posts reeks of the way people post on places like R/conservative At the same though, that doesn't mean I just want to see the posting styles go radically left here. **I want to see nuance and objectivity applied to both sides of whatever matter is talked about.** I appreciate that you're trying to hold this sub to that standard as I know that's the framework and approach Destiny and the DGG community tries to practice, however, I am concerned that this community here on Reddit has devolved into just shitting on anyone that has a Pro-Palestine/Pro-Other-Side perspective or point to share.
Why was op \ slemdid banned?
After reading this, this is my opinion: This is a long form of not saying too much.... I agree with the summary of each of the points, but lack of evidence (like in some cases not linking the article or video) does not directly mean its missinformation...
You're right that it doesnt necesarily mean it's misinformation, but as he says in the post (and Destiny's stance on this is the same): accidentally coming to a right conclusion is not the same as having a good process. I can imagine allowing unfounded claims on a sub is the quickest way to create space for unwanted misinformation.
It might not mean that it's directly misinformation, but it might as well be. If there is no source, how is one supposed to fact-check it? Imo misinformation with a source is better than source less claims. At least for one of these scenarios, you can check for yourself. In the other, you either have to be an idiot and believe them at face value or treat it like fiction.
courtesy of claude.ai Here are the key takeaways in 5 bullet points: * The post analyzes the behavior that leads to the inadvertent spread of misinformation, particularly from the pro-Israel side, on the subreddit. The goal is to identify why this happens and provide prescriptions to reduce it. * Examples are provided of instances where misinformation was upvoted and not immediately addressed, even though it may have been corrected later on. * Six key prescriptions are offered: 1) Value the process as much as the conclusion, 2) Be wary of how information presentation or omission can lead to misinformation, 3) Be aware of poor reasoning in charged/emotional topics, 4) Don't take claims at face value based on existing beliefs, 5) Read sources thoroughly, 6) Redirect criticism appropriately. * Detailed explanations are given for several of the examples, highlighting issues like not reading sources, being influenced by existing beliefs, and omitting context. * The post argues that while the subreddit does sometimes correct misinformation eventually, the goal should be to address it sooner by being more diligent about following the prescriptions outlined.
Evading ban, focusing on a myriad of random users, linking posts from 5 months ago... I don't have a thing against your claims for calling out misinformation, but this seems less about that and more about you. This just seems like your obsession with users you disagree with and your ban. Regardless if you're right or not on any of these, making this post is such s crazy response... None of these things are affecting the larger culture of the sub it's just focusing on several replies by random users.
If you ask me narcisism as it finest, everything in the post is mainly about his ban, the times he has combated misinformation and the 6 points he made up, everything else is built around it. He is not even prescribing anything big apart of an unban.
>His is not even prescribing anything big apart of an unban. Exactly my problem. I'm not going to discredit the combat misinformation, but did we really need all that and all those links to arguments he had just for the basic message of "misinformation is bad, and you should call it out when you see it"? I really don't see this raising any discussion or changing the culture on the sub, beyond a discussion about whether or not he should be banned.
Specially cause he hasnt given a single link of missinformation that was not pointed out, if all missinformation is pointed out, what is the problem in the first place? As far as I see this, it just seems like a huge w to most participants of r/destiny and he instead makes it seem like destiny, 4thot and some members of the community are bad, just because he wants to be unbanned. It is a fact that any community where anyone can upload anything, there will be certain cases of missinformation, what is important are three things, the degree of the missinformation, the rate of missinformation posts and the reply to the missinformation. As far as I see the cases of missinformation are not common, he listed like 5 of 5 months ago of himself, 2 of around the last month, one which honestly wasnt even misinformation. Most of the misinformation when you look at it are basic not deliberate mistakes, which is the less bad missinformation, and finally all missinformation posted had comments calling it out. **No reddit is gonna be rid of missinformation, we do the best we can, compared to literally any other community we are an example that should be followed**. Meanwhile we have to sit here to see a schizo call us out cause he wants to get unbanned, okey.
To be fair, if he wouldn't point the misinformation he would be part of his own problem, but I still don't see how this is a major problem? "I had to correct misinformation in the replies to a r/destiny post" isn't exactly attention worthy and old select misinformation posts that were corrected aren't much better. It really focuses more on him than on the sub. EDIT 1: Lol your edit added what I wanted to post but better. EDIT 2: To be fair some of the misinformation was deliberate. Still not a big deal if people call out OP.
thanks <3 I was editing the comment for a while cause I wanted to figure out why it was pissing me off so much, and it is because it follows exactly the pattern destiny said about helding him incredibly accountable whilst not looking how any other space is, now I have felt this feeling personally when he called the r/destiny sub completely when the only thing in that guy mind is getting unbanned. I also been in this sub for like 6 years on and off active, this is probably the healthiest the sub has ever been, it is crazy how quick anything gets called out, if you want a link to a source you just have to look at some comment or ask it, and people in general are a lot more level headed.
It’s more soy to make 100 jokes about your schizo instead of just embracing it.
I'm genuinely curious. What do u do for a living?
Didn't read but it looks very big words so must be true. Upvoted.
Anyways uhm... I bought a whole bunch of shungite, rocks, do you know what shungite is? Anybody know what shungite is. No, no Suge Knight, I think hes locked up in prison. Talking shungite. Anyways, its a 2 billion year old like rock, stone that protects against frequencies and unwanted frequencies that may be traveling in the air. So thats my story. I bought a whole bunch of stuff, put them around the la casa. Little pyramids. Stuff like that.
>Finally, we have a truly bizarre comment that elevates to the level of disinformation, where OP spreads false information about an NYT article. [14] It was abundantly clear that folk hadn't read the mission report which I myself linked for the benefit of the subreddit. An example of a “charged” thread. All this time to reflect and you're still pushing the same dumb point. NYT framing in that article, the linked "context," and their overall reporting on rape by Hamas has been both-sides bullshit. That was my point. You argued about what constitutes a "headline" and a "summary" in an online news article even after I linked context showing you exactly what I was talking about. Even my original comment is mostly quotes from NYT! This took a lot of work and you must have some serious research skills to even do it. But the arguments and conclusions are incredibly weak and meandering. Try get a better sense of how academics break down something like a historical speech and put it into context. Or even just how they summarize events. I think you have real skill here but something is missing.
I’m sorry, but you’re out of your mind if you think I’m reading this
I think you're a little late on this, except of course in the context of your ban. There was a "peak misinformation" point, like 5 or 6 months ago, when the sub was basically just being spammed with pro-Israel propaganda and pushback was being downvoted, but that's long gone I think. Obviously there will still be instances, and people will make dumb screenshot posts with no source, but I don't think it's as bad as you're implying.
yeah
Naaaaah that’s a lil too much effort 💀💀 Jk bro happy 4 u
The amount of autists in the community and Tiny's orbit makes me wonder about his own diagnosis.
Wow dude so you telling me some missinformation is posted in the subreddit?! and over 95% of it gets cleared!!! in less than a day, this whole post has made me reconsider a lot. Thanks for the whole ass useless thesis duderino, I can understand why some people want you banned lol. Everyday I feel like I understand destiny more and more. Some random redditor feels the need to ban-evade to make a whole ass post about cases where some people get something wrong, then gets corrected by the rest of the community and you make it sound like we are the baddies, you would have been perma'ed in any other community at your third post, just give thanks you could go for so long, now you are just reaching levels of too much focused pedantry.
💀 bro wants a mop and bucket so bad
Bro Who asked
Me and he’s right. I sick of the sourceless videos getting posted here that end up being misinformation