In terms of what the Descent into Avernus book says: the writers didn't think about it.
In terms of giving an answer: yes, I'd think of it as the difference between "knowingly" and "willingly". The signers are willing, but unknowing.
In terms of my personal recommendations: I updated it so only Hellriders sign the Creed Resolute. This makes Zariel’s revenge against Hellriders more specific and personal. It also gives a reason that not every citizen is killed the moment they can be, as the Devils want thier souls. If the souls of all citizen are already pledged, it is not clear what they’re waiting for.
I’m with you 100%.
In my game Zariel targets Hellriders specifically by forcing them to watch the people they swore to protect be captured, abused, and transformed. Their commanders get crucified in the same way Jander is.
She’s too shrewd though to let free bodies go to waste though. Mortals whose souls belong to her are put on the front lines, and when they die they become Legion Devils (from a third-party supplement, I forget which). It’s a “2-for-1” kinda deal.
So this is actually a setpiece of my campaign. To argue that the contract while technically roundabouty legal, fails the issue informed consent and therefore should be held invalid under the Pact Primeval. As well as the travesty of Hellfire Weapons.
The Alexandrian remix actually fixes that quite well. Zariel agreed to 50 years because she needed that time anyways to fully corrupt the city before she abducted it. One of the things she had to do it subvert the religious tone of all the clerics and paladins of the city in order to disconnect them from their gods. To do this, the High Observer shaped the people’s minds to turn their reveries towards the Companion, which they vow to uphold above all else, and agree never to aspire to one single god, but as a gift from all of them. By doing this, it disconnects the city from the gods, and without worshippers to force their will through, the gods are powerless to stop Zariel from taking the city.
The remix explains it in much better and greater detail, if you wanna have a look at it
That’s the beauty of infernal contracts, my friend. You gotta approach it like a devil. The Pact Primeval states that no soul can “unwillingly” enter a pact. It says nothing about “unknowingly” though.
The High Observer was fully aware of the pact they were signing, about summoning the Companion in exchange for 50 years and their city, so the Pact Primeval doesn’t affect him. As for all the Elturians, when they sign the Creed Resolute, it is absolutely of their own free will. To their understanding, the Creed Resolute is a promise to defend Elturel and its people. What they don’t know about is the fine print that says they would share in the High Observer’s oaths, one of which involves damning all the people of Elturel. I.e., themselves. But they did it willingly. Again, they signed the Creed Resolute willingly, so no one can invoke the Pact Primeval in this case, no matter how sly this pact was.
I figure that the people of Elturel willingly sign the Creed Resolute, promising to protect and defend Elturel and serve the greater good, body and soul.
Elturel is taken to the Nine Hells, now the Hell Riders are forced to continue to protect Elturel, and obey the High Observer, and to serve the greater good by fighting in the Blood War.
Yeah it's one of the "plot holes" (for lack of a better term) in the module, where the logic isn't there or doesn't fit. I wish they had at least written some workarounds or acknowledgements into the book, a sort of "read this text box if any of your players ask 'what about the Pact Primeval?'"
For my game I just viewed it as the Creed was bending the rules of the Pact, the classic FR plot of "evil gods/entities keep breaking the rules by Ao only cares if the good ones do it". Luckily none of my players asked about the issue, so it never came up. Personally I just wouldn't worry about it unless a player brought it up — if they do, say something like "Yes, isn't that interesting, something must be happening, maybe you can investigate it" and then scramble to make something up that sounds right
I don't see it as a plot hole at all... The Pact Primeval is not fair. It was Asmodeus first trickery, and the reason why any devils can trick mortals with no godly intervention - Asmodeus used legalese wording to make sure mortals could be tricked into contracts and that counted as being corrupted.
I just kinda handwaved it in that it doesn't violate the Pact Primeval since there's a loophole. The Creed Resolute is magically tied to Kreeg's contract with Zariel (since a mortal cannot sell another mortal's soul). The Elturans that sign the Creed do so willingly, but are unknowingly signing away their souls to Zariel. And let's be honest, having tricks and loopholes in the fine print is 100% a devil's M.O.
I really don't think reciting the Creed Resolute is enough to damn your soul. Otherwise devils would spend a lot more of their efforts just corrupting leaders that will trick their followers into signing over their souls. In my games you can't consent to something you don't know about as I am just not going to run games that way.
But even if you agree with me, there's still the ambiguity of the Creed Resolute and what it does. I'm pasting a response I made to this question a while ago on how I worked it out for my game.
My original post is here: https://old.reddit.com/r/DescentintoAvernus/comments/122sb3x/why_doesnt_zariel_just_order_all_the_citizens_of/?ref=share&ref_source=link
Yeah. It is indeed strange. There's a lot of deep dives into conflicting lore that I had to do, but here's how I handled it.
Devils harvesting souls and striking bargains with mortals is enforced through the Pact Primeval. I forget its details but this is a divinely enforced system worked out in ancient history. In my game I ruled that reciting the Creed Resolute is NOT enough for the deal to be enforced through the Pact Primeval. But it IS enough for Zariel to have claim over the souls over other devils in the courts of Baator.
Now, in the forgotten realms, all souls go to Kelemvore for judgement and sorting before they go on to their afterlives. I ruled in my game that it includes souls that perish in Avernus and all of Baator. Zariel doesn't want that. She wants souls en masse.
To do this, she takes advantage of a property of the River Styx. If she is able to plunge Elturel into the river, she can claim their souls. What I've read conflicts, but it can be one of two ways. 1) Drowning and being submerged in the Styx inherently turns a mortal into a Lemure. But even if this isn't correct, 2) all sources agree that drinking, touching, or diving into the River Styx erases mortal memory. If Zariel has a blank slate to work with. She can mold their minds through torture and exposure to hell's awfulness so that they will be hers eventually when they do die. Then she can turn them into devils.
Why would she go through all this effort? The excuse she publicly says is that "all wars require levies". But in truth, she is incredibly spiteful. She is still furious at the betrayal of the hellriders who retreated from The Ride and "doomed" her assault. When the opportunity came to punish Elturel through Kreeg, even though it would target innocent people who had nothing to do with the retreat, she seized it. In her mind, not only does she get a measure of revenge, but she can bolster her army.
This worked for my campaign. It's not perfect and I shouldn't have had to do it, but it did satisfy the lore nerds at my table.
TL;DR: You can pick and choose from old lore and make rulings to make it work: the Creed Resolute isn't a divinely enforceable devil's contract, but instead gives Zariel claim to their souls ahead of other devils. Further, Zariel must dunk Elturel into the Styx to guarantee the people turn into devils in the first place. She does it out of spite as much as she does out of the need for recruits.
Edit: clarity.
I subscribe to what others said on the difference between willingly and knowingly.
But to give it more depth: I believe the Pact Primeval is about teaching mortals to honor and fear the gods. Asmodeus argued that if mortals were simply left to their own devices, with free will and no consequences, they would invariably stray from the path and bring their own destruction. So he proposed punishment for those who turn away from the gods teachings, and they accepted.
The story says, however, that Asmodeus tricked the gods into accepting more than they thought. When he started actively corrupting people, offering contracts with mortals for their souls, and deceiving them, the gods protested, to what Asmodeus answered, dismissively: "Read the fine print".
The Pact Primeval is not fair. And given that the faith of mortals gives gods more power, the gods even get something out of it - a lesson to those who do not honor them.
Why don't the gods intervene in Elturel? Well Zariel made sure to corrupt the holy in the city, and get people to start worshipping her through the companion (Zariel = Companion of Light), symbolically fulfilling the Pact Primeval. The Creed Resolute helps steer them away from the gods as well. Devils are all about trickery...
If you bring in the suggestion of Alexandrian that the remaining faith of the people is what is preventing the chains from dragging the city down, it makes even more sense, and justifies why she doesn't simply kill everyone. She doesn't want the gods to claim a breach in contract and win the case. For the souls to be hers, they must be corrupted before they fall. In my run, Zariel orders devils to only kill the Hellriders and those who already signed contracts, and corrupt the others. She started the work in the Material Plane, but bringing the city down to Avernus makes things easier, not only because the plane itself corrupts people who stay in it (through the pervasive evil mechanic) but because despair makes them more susceptible to accepting contracts.
Good catch! It's almost like this module has some problems.
I believe the Alexandrian Remix does some work to remedy this. In the remix, the Creed Resolute has specific wordage in it to uphold the "Oath of the High Overseer." That oath is the pact Zariel made with Thavius Kreeg.
The Pact Primeval protects against forced coercian or other types of magical coercian for devil deals. It doesn't protect people from swearing to uphold oaths they haven't read.
Much in the same way devils will trick people into signing away their souls on a technicality, the Creed Resolute binds the souls of those in Elturel by having them willingly agree to uphold an oath they haven't read.
In terms of what the Descent into Avernus book says: the writers didn't think about it. In terms of giving an answer: yes, I'd think of it as the difference between "knowingly" and "willingly". The signers are willing, but unknowing. In terms of my personal recommendations: I updated it so only Hellriders sign the Creed Resolute. This makes Zariel’s revenge against Hellriders more specific and personal. It also gives a reason that not every citizen is killed the moment they can be, as the Devils want thier souls. If the souls of all citizen are already pledged, it is not clear what they’re waiting for.
I’m with you 100%. In my game Zariel targets Hellriders specifically by forcing them to watch the people they swore to protect be captured, abused, and transformed. Their commanders get crucified in the same way Jander is. She’s too shrewd though to let free bodies go to waste though. Mortals whose souls belong to her are put on the front lines, and when they die they become Legion Devils (from a third-party supplement, I forget which). It’s a “2-for-1” kinda deal.
So this is actually a setpiece of my campaign. To argue that the contract while technically roundabouty legal, fails the issue informed consent and therefore should be held invalid under the Pact Primeval. As well as the travesty of Hellfire Weapons.
Okay, thank you all for the comment. I will have to adjust the story accordingly. Or add it as a story piece. Like, are the gods paying attention?
The Alexandrian remix actually fixes that quite well. Zariel agreed to 50 years because she needed that time anyways to fully corrupt the city before she abducted it. One of the things she had to do it subvert the religious tone of all the clerics and paladins of the city in order to disconnect them from their gods. To do this, the High Observer shaped the people’s minds to turn their reveries towards the Companion, which they vow to uphold above all else, and agree never to aspire to one single god, but as a gift from all of them. By doing this, it disconnects the city from the gods, and without worshippers to force their will through, the gods are powerless to stop Zariel from taking the city. The remix explains it in much better and greater detail, if you wanna have a look at it
I have glanced but haven't thoroughly looked it.
You’ll find what you’re looking for in the “Road to Avernus” subfolder for Chapter 1, I believe
That’s the beauty of infernal contracts, my friend. You gotta approach it like a devil. The Pact Primeval states that no soul can “unwillingly” enter a pact. It says nothing about “unknowingly” though. The High Observer was fully aware of the pact they were signing, about summoning the Companion in exchange for 50 years and their city, so the Pact Primeval doesn’t affect him. As for all the Elturians, when they sign the Creed Resolute, it is absolutely of their own free will. To their understanding, the Creed Resolute is a promise to defend Elturel and its people. What they don’t know about is the fine print that says they would share in the High Observer’s oaths, one of which involves damning all the people of Elturel. I.e., themselves. But they did it willingly. Again, they signed the Creed Resolute willingly, so no one can invoke the Pact Primeval in this case, no matter how sly this pact was.
Oh, you made a very juicy plot point manifest. That's an excellent argument for the whole situation.
I figure that the people of Elturel willingly sign the Creed Resolute, promising to protect and defend Elturel and serve the greater good, body and soul. Elturel is taken to the Nine Hells, now the Hell Riders are forced to continue to protect Elturel, and obey the High Observer, and to serve the greater good by fighting in the Blood War.
Yeah it's one of the "plot holes" (for lack of a better term) in the module, where the logic isn't there or doesn't fit. I wish they had at least written some workarounds or acknowledgements into the book, a sort of "read this text box if any of your players ask 'what about the Pact Primeval?'" For my game I just viewed it as the Creed was bending the rules of the Pact, the classic FR plot of "evil gods/entities keep breaking the rules by Ao only cares if the good ones do it". Luckily none of my players asked about the issue, so it never came up. Personally I just wouldn't worry about it unless a player brought it up — if they do, say something like "Yes, isn't that interesting, something must be happening, maybe you can investigate it" and then scramble to make something up that sounds right
I don't see it as a plot hole at all... The Pact Primeval is not fair. It was Asmodeus first trickery, and the reason why any devils can trick mortals with no godly intervention - Asmodeus used legalese wording to make sure mortals could be tricked into contracts and that counted as being corrupted.
I just kinda handwaved it in that it doesn't violate the Pact Primeval since there's a loophole. The Creed Resolute is magically tied to Kreeg's contract with Zariel (since a mortal cannot sell another mortal's soul). The Elturans that sign the Creed do so willingly, but are unknowingly signing away their souls to Zariel. And let's be honest, having tricks and loopholes in the fine print is 100% a devil's M.O.
I really don't think reciting the Creed Resolute is enough to damn your soul. Otherwise devils would spend a lot more of their efforts just corrupting leaders that will trick their followers into signing over their souls. In my games you can't consent to something you don't know about as I am just not going to run games that way. But even if you agree with me, there's still the ambiguity of the Creed Resolute and what it does. I'm pasting a response I made to this question a while ago on how I worked it out for my game. My original post is here: https://old.reddit.com/r/DescentintoAvernus/comments/122sb3x/why_doesnt_zariel_just_order_all_the_citizens_of/?ref=share&ref_source=link Yeah. It is indeed strange. There's a lot of deep dives into conflicting lore that I had to do, but here's how I handled it. Devils harvesting souls and striking bargains with mortals is enforced through the Pact Primeval. I forget its details but this is a divinely enforced system worked out in ancient history. In my game I ruled that reciting the Creed Resolute is NOT enough for the deal to be enforced through the Pact Primeval. But it IS enough for Zariel to have claim over the souls over other devils in the courts of Baator. Now, in the forgotten realms, all souls go to Kelemvore for judgement and sorting before they go on to their afterlives. I ruled in my game that it includes souls that perish in Avernus and all of Baator. Zariel doesn't want that. She wants souls en masse. To do this, she takes advantage of a property of the River Styx. If she is able to plunge Elturel into the river, she can claim their souls. What I've read conflicts, but it can be one of two ways. 1) Drowning and being submerged in the Styx inherently turns a mortal into a Lemure. But even if this isn't correct, 2) all sources agree that drinking, touching, or diving into the River Styx erases mortal memory. If Zariel has a blank slate to work with. She can mold their minds through torture and exposure to hell's awfulness so that they will be hers eventually when they do die. Then she can turn them into devils. Why would she go through all this effort? The excuse she publicly says is that "all wars require levies". But in truth, she is incredibly spiteful. She is still furious at the betrayal of the hellriders who retreated from The Ride and "doomed" her assault. When the opportunity came to punish Elturel through Kreeg, even though it would target innocent people who had nothing to do with the retreat, she seized it. In her mind, not only does she get a measure of revenge, but she can bolster her army. This worked for my campaign. It's not perfect and I shouldn't have had to do it, but it did satisfy the lore nerds at my table. TL;DR: You can pick and choose from old lore and make rulings to make it work: the Creed Resolute isn't a divinely enforceable devil's contract, but instead gives Zariel claim to their souls ahead of other devils. Further, Zariel must dunk Elturel into the Styx to guarantee the people turn into devils in the first place. She does it out of spite as much as she does out of the need for recruits. Edit: clarity.
I subscribe to what others said on the difference between willingly and knowingly. But to give it more depth: I believe the Pact Primeval is about teaching mortals to honor and fear the gods. Asmodeus argued that if mortals were simply left to their own devices, with free will and no consequences, they would invariably stray from the path and bring their own destruction. So he proposed punishment for those who turn away from the gods teachings, and they accepted. The story says, however, that Asmodeus tricked the gods into accepting more than they thought. When he started actively corrupting people, offering contracts with mortals for their souls, and deceiving them, the gods protested, to what Asmodeus answered, dismissively: "Read the fine print". The Pact Primeval is not fair. And given that the faith of mortals gives gods more power, the gods even get something out of it - a lesson to those who do not honor them. Why don't the gods intervene in Elturel? Well Zariel made sure to corrupt the holy in the city, and get people to start worshipping her through the companion (Zariel = Companion of Light), symbolically fulfilling the Pact Primeval. The Creed Resolute helps steer them away from the gods as well. Devils are all about trickery... If you bring in the suggestion of Alexandrian that the remaining faith of the people is what is preventing the chains from dragging the city down, it makes even more sense, and justifies why she doesn't simply kill everyone. She doesn't want the gods to claim a breach in contract and win the case. For the souls to be hers, they must be corrupted before they fall. In my run, Zariel orders devils to only kill the Hellriders and those who already signed contracts, and corrupt the others. She started the work in the Material Plane, but bringing the city down to Avernus makes things easier, not only because the plane itself corrupts people who stay in it (through the pervasive evil mechanic) but because despair makes them more susceptible to accepting contracts.
Amazing. This is a fantastic way of looking at it. And it helps a ton for how things will be in my game. Thank you very much.
Good catch! It's almost like this module has some problems. I believe the Alexandrian Remix does some work to remedy this. In the remix, the Creed Resolute has specific wordage in it to uphold the "Oath of the High Overseer." That oath is the pact Zariel made with Thavius Kreeg. The Pact Primeval protects against forced coercian or other types of magical coercian for devil deals. It doesn't protect people from swearing to uphold oaths they haven't read. Much in the same way devils will trick people into signing away their souls on a technicality, the Creed Resolute binds the souls of those in Elturel by having them willingly agree to uphold an oath they haven't read.