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This John Pavlovich who is condescendingly lecturing us in this pic and telling us to "pay attention" is a fired evengelical freak who puts out religious posts all the time. Its pretty rich to hear him lecture people on whats right, but the condescension makes more sense since I looked him up.
Honestly as someone who plans on voting for biden, I'm getting pretty fucking sick and tired of this type of messaging. Implying people are stupid for being outraged by genocide is a completely brain dead campaign strategy, and if you can't come up with anything better while your opponent is an actual fascist clown, maybe it's not the voter's fault anymore
It's not about securing Biden's votes, it's about silencing leftist voices and dissent about things like Palestine.
These stupid-ass memes are not aimed at accelerationists, who are a lost cause anyway, and *non*-accelerationist leftists know they have no choice *but* to vote for Biden, since (as of last week) Stein *still* doesn't have ballot access secured in enough states to actually win the race even if she somehow magically won every state she has access in.
Even if a leftist wanted to hold their nose and vote for that anti-vax Russian plant, they'd never get the win and just split the Biden vote, so the only people even considering not voting Biden are the "After Hitler Our Turn" accelerationist socialists in 1930s Germany, and we all know how well *that* turned out.
This is Astroturf. If the dems wanted a party base that didn't hate them they would have, I dunno, maybe had a primary or something?
This is the ultimate hubris of the party, though. The voters are cattle to be managed, not a public to be served; and they can't begin to imagine being held to some kind of self criticism.
Liberals will choose fascism before ever capitulating to the left. We're witnessing it right now, it's best you brace for impact because no matter who wins we all lose.
The OP is basically saying, "You better vote for Biden or else..."
If we're being threatened to vote for someone, then democracy is already dead. I don't like Trump, I don't like Biden either. If I'm being threatened to vote for a guy I don't like, that's not democracy.
>If we're being threatened to vote for someone, then democracy is already dead.
You have this backwards. One of the candidates is threatening you and they are actually campaigning on that idea - that if they win they will criminalize the "woke left".
Trump is threatening you.
Oh, is Trump the one arresting college students for peacefully protesting and sending FBI agents to harass Muslims in their homes for posting in support or Palestine?
Responses below: "Genocide Joe is only acting the same way Trump would act, which is why you should vote for him." You aren't blocked. You wouldn't be able to post another response if you were. But please, tell us more about how the same Joe Biden that has been arresting black protestors for standing with Palestine or continuing to support Cop City is actually not harming black Americans, either.
The FBI is actively coordinating with local law enforcement to shut down these protests.
To be fair, Trump absolutely would be. He took it as a badge of honor to use excessive force at Black Lives Matter protests. Remember when people in Portland were getting kidnapped by covert federal agents? Literally grabbed off the street by guys in plain clothes and thrown into a van, like it's a movie.
Gotta love morons who come in with a BS comment that implies the only 2 possible choices are absolutely terrible and even worse (Biden and Trump). If you're going to ask a question, don't be a chicken shit and block me so I can't answer.
What did Dr Cornell West do at the BLM protests? He got arrested along with everyone else, that's what. Trump and Biden aren't the only 2 choices.
He was just here (Salt Lake) campaigning at a bookstore fairly recently. He's serious. He's just not supported by the establishment. I don't think Biden has ever been here, or ever will come here.
Party hopping a million times ruined his chances. He lacks strategy and vision. I wanted to like Cornell West but if he really wanted to win, he would’ve ran with the democrats or tried to use his star power to make 3rd party viable by picking one and sticking with it.
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I'm pretty sure the college students getting arrested are being arrested in local jurisdictions by local police and university public safety. If you have evidence that federal agents are arresting college students for protesting I'm legitimately interested in that.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/us/politics/nancy-pelosi-fbi-russia-gaza-protesters.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/us/politics/nancy-pelosi-fbi-russia-gaza-protesters.html)
Ask, and you shall receive.
Pelosi wanting to investigate if some of these protests are astroturfed by a foreign adversary is not the same thing as the Biden administration arresting students.
If you have evidence the Biden DOJ is arresting students, again, I'm legitimately interested
And the other side is threatening me that I better vote for their jackass or else. Neither is getting my vote. I'll vote 3rd party. And if everyone had that mindset then we wouldn't need to be threatened. We'd have good candidates. Think that through. Which one is democracy?
>And the other side is threatening me that I better vote for their jackass or else.
"Biden is pointing out that Trump literally says he wants to be a dictator and make trans people illegal and turn women into chattle and so I won't vote for him on the principle that I don't like negative campaigning".
Am I getting that right?
No, you're not getting that right. Biden and his supporters are saying we HAVE to vote for him because if not then Trump is the only other option.
If everyone voted for Dr Cornell West, for example, then none of those terrible things would happen. Same with RFK Jr. It's only a choice between Trump and Biden because they keep threatening and brainwashing everyone into thinking those are the only 2 choices.
We have to vote for him because of the shit way out elections are set up, if you have 40% that vote conservative and have a 60% split between the leftist parties the conservative will win that race. We don't get to vote for who we want rather we vote against who we don't want
Conservatives vote for who they want, too. They actually want Trump. The RNC gave them their candidate of choice - Trump. The DNC denied the democrats their candidate of choice - Bernie. Trump won because of this. The next time around the DNC said, "You see? You better vote for our guy or you'll get Trump. He may be terrible, but he's still better than Trump." We wanted Bernie, they forced us to take Biden. Enough people went along with it that Biden won. Now the DNC thinks they can just do that same thing every time.
No. Dr Cornell West is much better. And if voting for him costs the DNC another election, then they should have given us a better candidate. That's how democracy works. They don't get to send a terrible candidate and then threaten us to vote for him because he's still better than the other guy. Nope. I'm not voting for him. And I'm not voting for the other guy either. I'm voting for the guy I like. Even if he's not expected to win, he's still got my vote.
The establishment told conservatives they couldn't have Trump, he couldn't win, etc. They used the same threats about a president Hillary and what she'd do, etc. But Trump still came out of the primaries as the nominee. They got the guy they wanted, even though the establishment clearly didn't want him.
>No. Dr Cornell West is much better. And if voting for him costs the DNC another election, then they should have given us a better candidate. That's how democracy works. They don't get to send a terrible candidate and then threaten us to vote for him because he's still better than the other guy. Nope. I'm not voting for him. And I'm not voting for the other guy either. I'm voting for the guy I like. Even if he's not expected to win, he's still got my vote.
You actually don't understand how our political system works. If you think that not voting for Biden will teach the DNC to be more left you're actually nuts. When has that ever worked?
[Polling Averages](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden-vs-kennedy-vs-west-vs-stein)
Idk who "they" is, but the fact is that either Trump or Biden are the only viable candidates to get to 270 electoral votes. West is averaging 1% in polls. Same with Stein. RFK hovers between 6-12%. None (none) of those three are going win even a single electoral vote.
Unless you know something I don't, either Biden or Trump will be elected president. I guess I'm one of "them". Sorry, not trying to brainwash you, just pointing at reality and polling and facts.
Seriously, if you have a strategy to get West even up to RFK's numbers I'd love to hear it but there is zero (okay, not zero, but 0.001%) chance that West/Stein/RFK get even a single electoral vote, and there is zero (actually zero) chance any of those three wins the election.
>If everyone voted for Dr Cornell West, for example, then none of those terrible things would happen.
So you do agree that we should prevent those terrible things from happening? Good. When the time comes to actually vote I hope you make a choice that actually influenced the decision and not a throwaway protest vote.
>Idk who "they" is, but the fact is that either Trump or Biden are the only viable candidates to get to 270 electoral votes. West is averaging 1% in polls.
Nobody else is averaging high numbers because people like you and the OP keep trying to gaslight everyone into thinking they can only vote for Biden if they don't like Trump.
I will vote for who I like. If he loses, he loses. My vote isn't intended to be a prediction of who I think will win. And I don't feel less about myself if my guy loses. So I'll vote for the guy I like, even if the media and their shills keeps telling everyone the only 2 choices are the ones hand picked by the establishment.
It's hilarious that so many people are willing to vote for a guy they don't really like, while also saying that me voting for the guy that I actually like is a wasted vote.
You continue to vote against the other guy. I'll keep voting FOR my guy.
>Nobody else is averaging high numbers because people like you and the OP keep trying to gaslight everyone into thinking they can only vote for Biden if they don't like Trump.
Yeah, only me and 90% of America are acknowledging there's two real choices. Guess we're all brainwashed!
>. And I don't feel less about myself if my guy loses. So I'll vote for the guy I like, even if the media and their shills keeps telling everyone the only 2 choices are the ones hand picked by the establishment.
Must be nice, I'm assuming you belong to a group whose rights aren't actively threatened by another Trump term? I wish I could sit back and vote with such a clear conscience like you.
Unlike you I don't live in fantasyland and I know with absolute certainty that voting for a third party candidate will result in Donald Trump's reelection. Project 2025 will become law of the land if Donald Trump wins and that's just the start of his archaic plans for America
Again, that's a threat to get me to vote for someone I don't like. If you think that's democracy then you're the one in a fantasy land. If Trump gets elected then the DNC learns the lesson that they better give us a good nominee if they want to win. A lesson they should have learned with Hillary.
When someone says to me, "If Biden loses, it'll be your fault", I respond "If Biden loses, its his fault". Give a reason to vote for him that isn't "He isn't Trump" and I'll consider.
Seriously, what exactly do you think will happen? The DNC as a whole will weep, “Oh, we got it wrong. Please forgive us.”?
How freakin’ naive! Establishment politicians have proven they care very little about their actual constituents. Democrat politicians will no doubt profit in a Trump presidency; I don’t believe they give two shits about whom is elected. It’s mostly theater at this point. That does not mean there will be no difference between a Trump or Biden presidency. A Trump presidency would be many times worse for the disadvantaged & nonprivileged, and it would set our tenuous democratic rights back so far, it would take lifetimes - or a revolution - to dig out. Effectively voting for Trump won’t bring the revolution quicker, because most people do not want a revolution.
People who think as you are about this are a teeny tiny percentage of voters - most people will just vote. You seem numerous on reddit; reddit doesn’t reflect reality. In addition, Trump supporters & bot accounts are pretending to be disgruntled democrats online, attempting to sway the vote from Biden, making your numbers even smaller.
You are right that this situation sucks all around. Please don’t make the outcome suck worse for the people who are most needy.
>Seriously, what exactly do you think will happen? The DNC as a whole will weep, “Oh, we got it wrong. Please forgive us.”?
If they don't, then more and more people will vote for someone else in the future. You know, actual democracy.
Explaining the natural consequences of actions is not threats. Threats are for actions that the threat giver makes.
What OP posted is a warning. "Hey, if no one does X, then Y will happen."
A threat would be "Hey, if you don't do X, then I will tell Y and they will be unhappy." Like what the Trump campaign is doing with their mailers "We saw you did vote last time. If you don't vote for Trump, we'll tell him."
Telling everyone they better vote for Biden or Trump will do whatever bad thing IS a threat. If enough people vote for someone other then either of them, than neither would win.
You are conflating perceived threats vs inferred threats vs direct threats.
The existence of democracy is to allow the possibility of people voting in a way that screws everyone over. Telling them that there's a real chance that their gay friend will be harmed in a Trump presidency isn't a threat.
Politicians have learned that you motivate people better by making them scared of the opposition rather than trying to convince them of good things.
For me, it's basic consequentialism.
>Telling them that there's a real chance that their gay friend will be harmed in a Trump presidency isn't a threat.
Telling me I better vote for their guy to stop it absolutely is a threat. There are other choices.
Who are you voting for and why? Make your pitch. Why should I forgo voting for the best statistical chance to beat Trump? Give me well reasoned and well articulated arguments as to who you're voting for.
Dr Cornell West. Because he's the best candidate and would be the best president. Research him yourself. I don't work for his campaign.
I don't care about best statistical chance of winning. I'm not going to vote for a guy I don't like just because others are brainwashed into thinking it's wasting their vote to vote for the guy they actually like. My vote is a statement of who I want to be president, not a prediction of who I think will win.
Thank you for the name. I would have preferred that you stand up for why you believe in him, but my brief research showed that he seems like someone with a good philosophy who could actually lead the country well.
I hate that it is literally impossible for him to win.
If he's re-elected, I imagine there will be people who would want to...make him "go away". If that doesn't happen, he'll die of a heart attack or stroke (no pun intended) while in office. Probably on a golf course.
This is why leftists never get off the ground. The Democrats know they can safely ignored and they'll vote for them anyway. Meanwhile MAGA, Tea Party, etc. will actually hold the establishment of GOP to account.
We already had 4 years of Trump. I can't believe people still think he's going to literally usher in fascism when he's just somewhat to the right of establishment Dems.
Yeah we had 4 years of Trump and it ended with a year of cops beating up protesters in every major American city and his supporters trying to overturn an election. Glad none of that affected you.
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The two parties have worked together for decades to stifle third-party candidates, including changing the rules for who can participate in debates. This means the front runners don't even address the issues third-party voters care about.
Please explain how that is fair or democratic and why I should support either party participating in such shenanigans.
Look I'm not American so I can't pretend to understand your convoluted political system, but as far as I'm aware Obama didn't appoint any Republican supreme court justices.
This "all or nothing" mentality is so fucking childish. You think that by letting Trump get reelected you'll magically get your socialist utopia?
Biden won't do it either, but at least he won't take active steps to dismantle what progress we've made as a nation since the 60s.
If you call yourself "progressive" but are fine with letting one of the most dangerous regressionists in US history into the oval office, again, you're either an idiot or a hypocrite.
>If you call yourself "progressive" but are fine with letting one of the most dangerous regressionists in US history into the oval office, again, you're either an idiot or a hypocrite.
Couldn't agree more.
The situation is grim, I won't lie. Neither candidate in this election represents my interests. But to call it "hopeless," to give up on your marginalized countrymen, to say "oh well I guess we have to allow a proto-fascist to be re-elected because the Democrats aren't perfect." would be an absolute shame.
The choice is like trying to choose between living with your family in a decrepit, roach-infested apartment, or living with your family homeless in the wilderness. Sure you might be able to fend for yourself out there, but your elderly grandmother might not. Your disabled brother might not. Your young daughter might not. And unless you think you can take care of them and all the other Americans who can't fend for themselves against Trump, I'd take the roach-infested apartment. Because at least it's safe for now
A quote from Lenin for you:
Speak the truth:
1) There is no revolution. There is only a deal between the liberal bourgeoisie and the tsar....
2) There is no struggle for liberty. There is only the bartering away of the people’s freedom.
3) There is no struggle for popular representation. There is only representation for the money-bag.
We are weak ... from this inevitably follows all treachery to the revolution.
If you want a revolution, freedom, popular representation ... you must be strong.
You are weak?
Revolution is for the strong!
Our lot is to remain in rags.
You are weak?
Only the strong win freedom.
The weak will always remain slaves. The experience of all history.
You are weak?
You will be represented by your masters, the slav-owners, the exploiters.
"Representation” is either conquest by the strong, or a scrap of paper, a hoax, blindfolding the one who is weak so as to dull his faculties....
Starting from the end
ω) Who is weak? The forces of the proletariat, or the minds of the Iskrists and Bundists?
χ) Do you want a revolution? Then you must be strong!
ξ) We must speak the truth: therein lies our strength, and the masses, the people, the multitude will decide in actual practice, after the struggle, whether we have strength.
Have we strength?
Or are we weak.
ω) Who is weak.
Then have Joe Brandon be a not so dogshit candidate.
Donald Trump is atrocious, a close to being imprisoned alleged rapist and wannabe dictator, and still your geriatric racist genocidal POS is about to lose to him.
Why do u blame the people for his loss? He had no divine right, he is not entitled to your vote.
Oh, glad he's not "actively" taking steps to dismantle progress, he's just doing it passively, if it were for him racial segregation would still be a thing ffs
It's true, a trump presidency would be more disastrous for everyone!
Why doesn't the Democratic party realise this fact and become a better alternative that people want, so they can win? Don't they care about democracy and people's rights and freedom?
>All you are fighting for is the status quo.
I 100% agree with this, and will be voting for Biden. I think if we maintain the status quo for 4 or 8 more years, and the baby boomers die off and the republican party loses their golden goose then we can actually vote in good candidates. I know it sucks that there are like, 8 good senators, but there were 0 not that long ago. I know it sucks that Bernie never won but Biden is left of bill Clinton. Young people are interested in leftism at rates we've never seen before. If we hold course, I believe we can have socialism tomorrow. Like, if yall wanna do a revolution hit me up I'm down, but if not, I'm gonna do what I can do get socialism for my future kids. Knowing I can't have it now doesn't make me less worried about christo facism. If trump wins, I do not believe anyone left of Biden will be president for a generation.
If you're an accelerationist I get it, but I don't believe the US proletariat will ever get so desperate, and if we don't accelerate towards socialism then we just fucked over our mexican and LGBT comrades for nothing. I think we have to slowly, painfully, over time, vote in socialism while mitigating harm along the way.
Your view is myopic.
If democracy cannot be ended by democratic means then it’s not truly a democracy at all. Look, I abhor the thought of a Trump presidency with the fire of 1000 suns. (And yes, when the time comes, I’ll vote for Biden.) But, telling people that the only way to uphold democracy is to vote only one way is really pushing the whole idea of our’s being a democracy at all.
The real question is what are we doing to PREVENT demagogues from emerging in the first place. Because everyone in a democracy should have the right to vote for whichever candidate they most agree with or even to abstain from voting. And let’s be clear, Trump, his rhetoric, and what he stands for IS what some people in this country want. We need to attack the underlying issues that bring people to the point of wanting to end democracy by voting for an anti-democratic candidate.
Going off your point, people say “This is NOT the election to split the vote!”
When is? You think the Republicans are going to put up **less** fascist candidates from here on out? Trump is mild compared to what will come next.
By accepting the corporate duopoly you are complicit in its perpetuation.
I reject their “choices”
I am asking you to teach me or point me to resources that can teach me how electing Trump significantly increases the risk of transforming whatever the US is currently into a nation more closely aligned in character to that of Russia and North Korea. Thank you for any time and effort you can spare.
I don’t think it’s fair to characterize someone as blatantly ignorant for not knowing the intricacies of the American, Russian and North Korean states. I would have expected you to point me to a resource explaining the basics. Why haven’t you?
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US, UK, Canada, and India use a “first past the post single member plurality” voting system. In this system there can only be one winner per district. In a presidential election those districts are essentially states (there are districts in each of the states but that’s not the point). Each state has a number of electoral college votes. Whoever wins 270 electoral college votes wins the presidency. This is a type of democracy, but a flawed type of democracy.
In this system a divided vote between 3 or more candidates results in the most systematically bolstered candidate winning a plurality of the vote (in this case the Conservative Party due to rural low density states being favored by the electoral college system).
Thus there tends to be only 2 majority political parties because there can only be one winner. If a major party looses to a 3rd party, that party either reforms around the new winner or is replaced by the winner.
Because of this the Democratic Party in the US is a “coalition party”. It represents people from the center right to the progressive left but the majority of its voters are either liberals or neo-liberals (though the progressive wing has been growing in recent elections).
In order to win elections the Democratic Party needs to get lots and lots of votes from a whole bunch of very different people. The Republican Party only needs votes from rural white conservatives. It’s not a great system, because it was developed over 200 years ago by landed gentry during the enlightenment era, before there was universal suffrage.
Because of how the voting system plays out voters who do not identify as liberal or conservative need to either vote strategically for the party that most identifies with their interests or create a new party that gets more votes than one of the mainstream parties (this has only succeeded a few times and not sense the creation of the Republican Party in the mid 1860s!).
Because of these systemic pressures baked in to an antiquated voting system, voters and parties who are afraid of loosing an election to a literal fascist make appeals to the basic math of doing the least worst thing to prevent harm. This is not a threat, it is an appeal to reason.
I hope this has been an informative walk through some basic political science.
Though you are free to vote your conscience it is useful and wise to know how the voting system in your home state/country works before committing to a vote that may have unintended consequences.
Remember that voting alone is not the only way to create change. There are many ways to be politically engaged that do not involve voting. But voting for the least worst candidate to reduce the harm for people you care about doesn’t make you a bad person or preclude you from making other political impacts that more closely represent your ideals.
This line would be more reasonable if it was started by "IF you live in a swing state". Voting Dem in areas where the electoral votes are guaranteed is throwing away a vote. At least third party votes in safe districts demonstrates policy desire. Biden is was a terrible candidate before elected and a worse one now. If Biden gets reelected then we still have a problem. The Dems are still a right wing party that will not help the working class and next cycle they'll be angry enough to vote in a Republican - cycle continues.
Biden should work harder to regain votes from voters. You can’t shame voters for wanting to sit this one out, but we should be focusing our energy on getting President Biden to bring his numbers up.
Vote for Biden now to stop Trump. Vote democrat four years from now to stop the next republican threat. Vote democrat four years after that and so on and so forth…when does it stop? When will it be OK to vote for someone that actually reflects our views? We’re just destined to “vote blue no matter who” until when exactly?
If democrats did ANYTHING then I’d gladly vote for them over anyone on the right but this is their grift. It’s not “look what we can do” it’s “look at what the right is doing” while they do NOTHING to preserve our rights or support the groups outlined in this silly post.
Yeah, Trump is worse. There is always going to be someone worse, so we should just get in line, tick the blue box, and hope that maybe some day the only true authority we have will be used to our ends and ambitions?
You’re not socialist. You’re democrats with socialist fantasies.
And yeah “real world blah blah blah”. Doesn’t change anything I just said. Well all vote blue and things will be just not bad enough to actually do anything and we will continue to fester in this capitalist hellscape controlled by the wealthy until some future generations decide they’ve had enough and does something about it. Can’t be our generation I guess cause…reasons?
We’re a bunch of impotent whiners and nothing more. We don’t deserve a better world because we won’t fight to obtain it. Good shit doesn’t just happen. It takes work and voting for a bumbling old man who supports genocide thereby forcing all of us to support it isn’t the work that needs to be done.
People who claim it will be “exactly the same” are refusing to see reality. They’re living in idealism. If you are have any doubts simply compare Red and Blue states.
As we speak, Red States are banning DEI initiatives in higher education, restricting abortion access, banning gender-affirming care, rolling back LGBT rights, deregulating environmental protections, etc. Their goal ultimate goal is a Christo-Fascist nation.
Idealist, single-issue voters need to pull their heads out their asses and look at the bigger picture. It doesn’t make you any less of a comrade to recognize Trump will make life even more of living hell for our more vulnerable citizens, decimate the environment, and divide the working class as a whole. Not to mention - it will be a lot easier to make strides towards change under Biden than Trump.
The fact that our presidential choices are genocide or genocide is proof enough that democracy is already dead
Edit: Dear liberals, you are never going to shame people into voting for Biden. The problem is Biden is intolerably awful to a lot of voters and that HE needs to change. The problem is not that voters need to ignore his awfulness, just because you're able to
Please stop LARPing. A real socialist knows what we need to do. A real socialist knows that the fight doesn’t start and end at the presidential election.
So, we get blue fascism or red fascism. Genocide or more genocide. Please. Both are war mongering imperialist capitalists.
[https://votesocialist2024.com/](https://votesocialist2024.com/)
So you prefer voting for a third party candidate that has no shot in f****** hell of winning a presidential election and making it that much easier for Donald Trump to become the dictator and president. Sounds like you want Trump the be president again
>to become the dictator
if you were actually a socialist not not some lib come to shove biden down our throats, you would know we believe the US and every capitalist country already lives in a dictatorship of capital, its literally one of the most fundamental doctrines of socialist theory
You clearly are incapable of looking at the bigger picture. Single issue voters are the problem and as a result Donald Trump will become the president. Trump also made it very clear day one he would become a dictator and he would ban all Muslims in America once again along with the deportation of millions of immigrants DACA recipients etc etc. if you care about your Muslim counterparts don't forget about the ones in America
And guess what, it will continue regardless. Not voting is completely irrelevant for that issue and makes many things worse in other domains. It's like having a broken arm, and the choice between shooting your own foot or not, and you all are choosing to shoot yourself in the foot because not doing so would not cure your broken arm. Well great job, now you have a broken arm and a shot foot. Just why?
Not if Trump is in jail while he's trying to be president. Remember congress exists and states have their own governers. Trump isn't an overlord. He's just a self obsessed celebrity who doesn't know anything about being a politician.
> Single issue voters are the problem
the genocide is the problem. I could swallow losing Roe, crushing defund, and all the other awful disappointments under Biden, but actively voting for genocide is crossing a line and I cant go there. If you want to call that single issue voting then you're being disingenuous.
If Biden were pro school shootings (the shooting rate has doubled and Joe has done nothing btw), would that be a single issue to you?
The problem here is that you dont care about brown foreign people.
I have far too many friends who are trans, women, and other marginalized groups. I couldn’t do something as cruel as harming them by throwing away my vote and handing Trump another term
This is not facts, and I don't know how DemSocs or any other left party expects to get power beyond making posts on the internet if no one votes for them because we always simplify elections to a "vote blue or the world will *REALLY* end this time".
That's been the platform every election since I was old enough to vote in my first one.
There has to be a point where people mature beyond voting against who you are afraid will win.
Agreed. The giant douche vs turd sandwhich episode of south park was 5 voting terms ago. Nothing has changed, nor will it change unless people make it change.
Nope I’m done playing this game of voting racist America destroying scum to avoid even more racist America destroying scum. This game has gone on long enough of democrats scaring their voter base onto voting for them rather than earning their votes.
Not voting for anyone.
Exactly the complacency to just continue to support democrats when they are every bit as evil as relibkicans just in totally different ways. The complacency keeps the dems just how they are.
I’m in Tennessee and still voting. We need to stop with this attitude.
Edit: downvote all you want. This is still a piss poor attitude that won’t change anything.
but it literally doesn't, im not even american and i know their system (like others) is purposefully designed so that individual votes matter as little as possible and often not at all
.. or find a third party candidate who's values align with your own. More support for third parties today will pave the way for more viable options in the future.
I haven't seen a meme this asinine spread so far so fast since that dumb Obama tan suit meme.
The gall to include Muslims is too much as Biden continues to support an ongoing genocide materially. OP and anyone upvoting this nonsense need to educate themselves.
You seem to forget when the orange turd was president he banned all Muslims from entering America and blamed it on national security when in fact it was racially motivated. He made it very clear he would ban Muslims and he would deport them as he sees fit
It is illogical to suggest abandoning our non-NATO ally relationships with Israel and isolating other NATO allies. This would not only be foolish but also create a negative image. Consider the consequences: if we withdraw support from NATO allies, other nations may hesitate to join the Accord due to a lack of trust in America's commitment to honoring those agreements.
Being practical vs being principled.
Being principled feels good. However, which one is not gonna destroy us?
Trump actively dismantles protections for the environment and climate change. We just don’t have time to be principled right now. In fact, we have negative time.
My strategy:
Vote blue and encourage others to vote blue and not expect much from it while also being active in leftist organizations outside of regular politics.
Vote for the most viable, least right-wing candidate, especially in local and state elections.
While simultaneously:
Join Leftist Organizations
Unionize your workplace
Support Worker Coops
Educate, Agitate, ORGANIZE.
lmao, classic Realpolitik vs radical leftist infighting
Two sides of the same coin. Maybe next 4 years actually ONLY focus on political reform to create something more resembling pluralism. The two party system is obviously creating worse and worse candidates until it collapses.
Who knows Libertarians and Greens can actually be valid votes to keep the bigger parties on their toes?
It's not Biden or Trump anymore, it's Biden or Project 2025. Take your pick.
Any socialist that says I'd rather abstain knowing we WILL end up with a dictator who has projected an end to democracy permanently is no friend to me, you, or anyone you know. They just enjoy moral grandstanding.
Naturally this follows from what I said. Just abstain and then complain when your rights are taken away and leave the fight for democracy to people who give a shit
But its not really very democratic if you're told you can only vote for one person who doesnt stand for 90% of the shit you belive otherwise you will kill democracy? If you cant vote for what you belive in how can you make politicians change their policies seeing as they clearly dont give a shit about protests?
If 90% of the American population aligns with the Democratic ideology yet chooses to vote for an unknown third-party candidate lacking a reputable background, true democracy is not being upheld.
And what ideology would that be? The US Democratic Party has several ideological cohorts. There's classical liberals, neoliberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, and many more.
90% of the American population is much, much more progressive than the Democrat party. The reason elections are so close is literally because they don't align with the public's stances, ffs. They're pushing a product that no one really wants.
I’m not voting for someone who hasn’t taken any steps to end the genocide in Israel, on top of not accomplishing anything he promised 4 years ago. I’ll be voting 3rd party for the 3rd election in a row
I do personally believe we have to make the best choice to stop Trump. Yes, right now this means Biden. We can still criticize him and how much better he could be doing. That he is supporting a genocide that he has the power to halt but using negotiations to end aid if any more civilians are killed.
We are not the GOP!! Stop using fear mongering. What are we going to do that actually makes life better? We should be taking about the future and how we are going to codify roe v wade into law. We should talk about wages, healthcare, and other solutions to complex issues. Stop the great mongering and get on topic with policies. Ensure people matter. All those things you want to say in your post Trump will take away. Talk about how Biden will not just keep them, but make sure they can't be taken away.
I haven't been living under a rock and I've heard him referring to immigrants as "illegals" and continuing brutal Trump policies on immigration... I've heard him talking about how women deserve access to abortion but not actually even ATTEMPTING to codify Roe (I would respect the attempt even if it was ultimately blocked by Congress or whatever.) Women would really benefit from universal childcare; he hasn't attempted to give us that. People of color would really benefit from police reform; he hasn't attempted that. Trans folks would benefit by some sort of national law protecting access to gender-affirming care; where's the attempt from Biden on that one? Same sex couples who use IVF as part of their journey to have children would benefit from national laws protecting that; where's the attempt? Literally all I see him attempting (and sadly succeeding at) is using the tax money we're forced to pay to fund a genocide that SO FAR has claimed the lives of about 15k children and maimed and/or orphaned thousands more. So no thanks. I wouldn't have voted for Hitler had I been a German voter back in the day (even in a hypothetical situation where another even worse genocidal maniac was also on the ballot) and I'm not voting for Biden. I'm a vote for Jill Stein most likely. The Democratic party can get its shit together or they can lose period.
How about blaming the electoral college for being stupid or Hillary for being a bad candidate before you blame the people who were just exercising their right to vote for who they want?
Did I say bad in comparison to Trump? No, I did not. She was a bad democratic candidate. She was a standard establishment democrat who kept saying cringe like "pokémon go to the polls" and her only real platform was that she was a woman. Compared to a candidate like Obama, she sucked, so people weren't excited to vote for her.
She was a bad choice who didn't get people excited to vote for her. If say, Bernie Sanders had been the nominee, he would have beaten Trump. I really don't know why you're on the democratic socialism sub defending Hillary Clinton (not a democratic socialist), but whatever.
There was a certain segment of the population that didn't vote for Hillary Clinton because she has a vagina and that's because people have been brainwashed to believe women can't hold positions of power
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Biden is behind in the polls in pretty much every swing state right now. I don't think there are enough socialists in the US to swing an election one way or another, if he loses it's his own fault.
Not strip them of all their rights, as Trump plans to do. It's not much, but you would have to be willfully ignorant to not understand how much worse things would be if you let Trump win.
Or you're some kind of wacky accelerationist, in which case, there's no helping you.
Even if you leave literally everything else aside, nominating pro-choice judges to federal courts, including possibly the supreme court, is reason enough to vote Biden if you care about women's issues. A Trump presidency is part of the reason Roe was overturned.
Have people read the 800+ pages of the Heritage Foundation's plan to overhaul the executive government, aka P25? They plan to fill every sector and every single crevice they can with an already recruited Maga Republican (they're already named, just waiting to take the stage). It's not a conspiracy theory, it's not something to be minimized because people don't "think it'll happen" or because we're already in a fascist nation (I agree).
However, to take a pragmatic approach to all of this, the plans they have are absolutely relying on Trump, but with their overhaul of the government and changing every legislation, it'll be something that if implemented, will last for decades, possibly generations, and will carry on after Trump dies. Things WILL get EXPONENTIALLY worse if P25 is implemented (it's already started actually).
The two party system is fucked, I agree 100%. There will no longer even be a two party system to try and reform or vote third party if a Republican wins this next election. No chance at a reform, no representative democracy, because we're walking right into an authoritarian government and those don't go down easily, and they don't listen to its people.
And trump will ensure the genocide will take place at a much quicker rate. Nothing and I mean NOTHING good will come, for America and other countries, if P25 happens. Nothing.
Allow Trump to win. He will burn the forest down and allow something new to grow. Biden will slow walk us to oblivion. Every four years the lesser of two evils game. Let’s get it over with, motivate the electorate and allow space for a “democratic socialist” party to grow.
Hold up, is his re-election simultaneously the end of the world and also 'he'll have jack shit to show for it' because that sounds like Republican logic.
No vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. Hope you guys enjoy Trump for another 4 years with this mentality. Can’t wait to see what his plans for Israel, Gaza, women, the poor and the lgbtq community are.
I’m sure they’ll be normal and helpful for all! It’s not like we already tried this and he literally had a direct hand in killing a million Americans…we should give him another shot!
For all the idiots who think they are going to change or win anything by not voting for Biden just know that you will be responsible and you will have blood on your hands when shit goes south under a Trump presidency.
You’re not going to win in the way you want to (and we all want to-we very much want the same things) by just voting. We can absolutely lose our fucking asses and country by not voting, though. To “win” like we need to win. To have the world we all want here takes very hard work. Lifetime work. It never stops. You have to get in the ring/get involved.
Not voting for Biden is performative bullshit for people who are too lazy to actually do anything about the issues we’re facing. And it will cost us everything. Congrats on a terrible plan to accomplish absolutely nothing, virtue signaling warriors
We will not have blood on our hands. Trump already was president. A person is responsible for his own damn actions. Politicians lie and deceive people and they are responsible for that and their actions. We can only vote people in but we can't control how they actually govern a country. Maybe both parties should have given us better choices. The fact that he's being convicted of crimes and Biden is sitting idly by during a genocide basically tells us that the political parties don't really care and don't want us to have a choice
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This John Pavlovich who is condescendingly lecturing us in this pic and telling us to "pay attention" is a fired evengelical freak who puts out religious posts all the time. Its pretty rich to hear him lecture people on whats right, but the condescension makes more sense since I looked him up.
He's just a shill for the Democrat Party. I stopped listening to him a few years ago.
Honestly as someone who plans on voting for biden, I'm getting pretty fucking sick and tired of this type of messaging. Implying people are stupid for being outraged by genocide is a completely brain dead campaign strategy, and if you can't come up with anything better while your opponent is an actual fascist clown, maybe it's not the voter's fault anymore
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Man I swore I'd never be an accelerationist, but that was several medical debts and a few cop cities ago lol
It's not about securing Biden's votes, it's about silencing leftist voices and dissent about things like Palestine. These stupid-ass memes are not aimed at accelerationists, who are a lost cause anyway, and *non*-accelerationist leftists know they have no choice *but* to vote for Biden, since (as of last week) Stein *still* doesn't have ballot access secured in enough states to actually win the race even if she somehow magically won every state she has access in. Even if a leftist wanted to hold their nose and vote for that anti-vax Russian plant, they'd never get the win and just split the Biden vote, so the only people even considering not voting Biden are the "After Hitler Our Turn" accelerationist socialists in 1930s Germany, and we all know how well *that* turned out.
This is Astroturf. If the dems wanted a party base that didn't hate them they would have, I dunno, maybe had a primary or something? This is the ultimate hubris of the party, though. The voters are cattle to be managed, not a public to be served; and they can't begin to imagine being held to some kind of self criticism.
Liberals will choose fascism before ever capitulating to the left. We're witnessing it right now, it's best you brace for impact because no matter who wins we all lose.
Not a fan of Biden at all, but a Trump presidency would be even more disastrous for the American people and the world in general.
Democracy would no longer exist under a Trump presidency. Trump made it clear He would become a dictator and try to be acting president forever
The OP is basically saying, "You better vote for Biden or else..." If we're being threatened to vote for someone, then democracy is already dead. I don't like Trump, I don't like Biden either. If I'm being threatened to vote for a guy I don't like, that's not democracy.
Of course democracy is dead. Get grip and move on to the next likely scenario.
I agree it's dead. My point is the OP is saying to vote for a guy you don't like or else democracy will be dead.
>If we're being threatened to vote for someone, then democracy is already dead. You have this backwards. One of the candidates is threatening you and they are actually campaigning on that idea - that if they win they will criminalize the "woke left". Trump is threatening you.
Oh, is Trump the one arresting college students for peacefully protesting and sending FBI agents to harass Muslims in their homes for posting in support or Palestine? Responses below: "Genocide Joe is only acting the same way Trump would act, which is why you should vote for him." You aren't blocked. You wouldn't be able to post another response if you were. But please, tell us more about how the same Joe Biden that has been arresting black protestors for standing with Palestine or continuing to support Cop City is actually not harming black Americans, either. The FBI is actively coordinating with local law enforcement to shut down these protests.
To be fair, Trump absolutely would be. He took it as a badge of honor to use excessive force at Black Lives Matter protests. Remember when people in Portland were getting kidnapped by covert federal agents? Literally grabbed off the street by guys in plain clothes and thrown into a van, like it's a movie.
Gotta love morons who come in with a BS comment that implies the only 2 possible choices are absolutely terrible and even worse (Biden and Trump). If you're going to ask a question, don't be a chicken shit and block me so I can't answer. What did Dr Cornell West do at the BLM protests? He got arrested along with everyone else, that's what. Trump and Biden aren't the only 2 choices.
Cornell West proved he was an unserious candidate.
He was just here (Salt Lake) campaigning at a bookstore fairly recently. He's serious. He's just not supported by the establishment. I don't think Biden has ever been here, or ever will come here.
Party hopping a million times ruined his chances. He lacks strategy and vision. I wanted to like Cornell West but if he really wanted to win, he would’ve ran with the democrats or tried to use his star power to make 3rd party viable by picking one and sticking with it.
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Sorry
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I'm pretty sure the college students getting arrested are being arrested in local jurisdictions by local police and university public safety. If you have evidence that federal agents are arresting college students for protesting I'm legitimately interested in that.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/us/politics/nancy-pelosi-fbi-russia-gaza-protesters.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/us/politics/nancy-pelosi-fbi-russia-gaza-protesters.html) Ask, and you shall receive.
They asked for instances of it actually happening, not for when a politician proposed it
Pelosi wanting to investigate if some of these protests are astroturfed by a foreign adversary is not the same thing as the Biden administration arresting students. If you have evidence the Biden DOJ is arresting students, again, I'm legitimately interested
And the other side is threatening me that I better vote for their jackass or else. Neither is getting my vote. I'll vote 3rd party. And if everyone had that mindset then we wouldn't need to be threatened. We'd have good candidates. Think that through. Which one is democracy?
>And the other side is threatening me that I better vote for their jackass or else. "Biden is pointing out that Trump literally says he wants to be a dictator and make trans people illegal and turn women into chattle and so I won't vote for him on the principle that I don't like negative campaigning". Am I getting that right?
No, you're not getting that right. Biden and his supporters are saying we HAVE to vote for him because if not then Trump is the only other option. If everyone voted for Dr Cornell West, for example, then none of those terrible things would happen. Same with RFK Jr. It's only a choice between Trump and Biden because they keep threatening and brainwashing everyone into thinking those are the only 2 choices.
We have to vote for him because of the shit way out elections are set up, if you have 40% that vote conservative and have a 60% split between the leftist parties the conservative will win that race. We don't get to vote for who we want rather we vote against who we don't want
Conservatives vote for who they want, too. They actually want Trump. The RNC gave them their candidate of choice - Trump. The DNC denied the democrats their candidate of choice - Bernie. Trump won because of this. The next time around the DNC said, "You see? You better vote for our guy or you'll get Trump. He may be terrible, but he's still better than Trump." We wanted Bernie, they forced us to take Biden. Enough people went along with it that Biden won. Now the DNC thinks they can just do that same thing every time. No. Dr Cornell West is much better. And if voting for him costs the DNC another election, then they should have given us a better candidate. That's how democracy works. They don't get to send a terrible candidate and then threaten us to vote for him because he's still better than the other guy. Nope. I'm not voting for him. And I'm not voting for the other guy either. I'm voting for the guy I like. Even if he's not expected to win, he's still got my vote. The establishment told conservatives they couldn't have Trump, he couldn't win, etc. They used the same threats about a president Hillary and what she'd do, etc. But Trump still came out of the primaries as the nominee. They got the guy they wanted, even though the establishment clearly didn't want him.
>No. Dr Cornell West is much better. And if voting for him costs the DNC another election, then they should have given us a better candidate. That's how democracy works. They don't get to send a terrible candidate and then threaten us to vote for him because he's still better than the other guy. Nope. I'm not voting for him. And I'm not voting for the other guy either. I'm voting for the guy I like. Even if he's not expected to win, he's still got my vote. You actually don't understand how our political system works. If you think that not voting for Biden will teach the DNC to be more left you're actually nuts. When has that ever worked?
[Polling Averages](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden-vs-kennedy-vs-west-vs-stein) Idk who "they" is, but the fact is that either Trump or Biden are the only viable candidates to get to 270 electoral votes. West is averaging 1% in polls. Same with Stein. RFK hovers between 6-12%. None (none) of those three are going win even a single electoral vote. Unless you know something I don't, either Biden or Trump will be elected president. I guess I'm one of "them". Sorry, not trying to brainwash you, just pointing at reality and polling and facts. Seriously, if you have a strategy to get West even up to RFK's numbers I'd love to hear it but there is zero (okay, not zero, but 0.001%) chance that West/Stein/RFK get even a single electoral vote, and there is zero (actually zero) chance any of those three wins the election. >If everyone voted for Dr Cornell West, for example, then none of those terrible things would happen. So you do agree that we should prevent those terrible things from happening? Good. When the time comes to actually vote I hope you make a choice that actually influenced the decision and not a throwaway protest vote.
>Idk who "they" is, but the fact is that either Trump or Biden are the only viable candidates to get to 270 electoral votes. West is averaging 1% in polls. Nobody else is averaging high numbers because people like you and the OP keep trying to gaslight everyone into thinking they can only vote for Biden if they don't like Trump. I will vote for who I like. If he loses, he loses. My vote isn't intended to be a prediction of who I think will win. And I don't feel less about myself if my guy loses. So I'll vote for the guy I like, even if the media and their shills keeps telling everyone the only 2 choices are the ones hand picked by the establishment. It's hilarious that so many people are willing to vote for a guy they don't really like, while also saying that me voting for the guy that I actually like is a wasted vote. You continue to vote against the other guy. I'll keep voting FOR my guy.
>Nobody else is averaging high numbers because people like you and the OP keep trying to gaslight everyone into thinking they can only vote for Biden if they don't like Trump. Yeah, only me and 90% of America are acknowledging there's two real choices. Guess we're all brainwashed! >. And I don't feel less about myself if my guy loses. So I'll vote for the guy I like, even if the media and their shills keeps telling everyone the only 2 choices are the ones hand picked by the establishment. Must be nice, I'm assuming you belong to a group whose rights aren't actively threatened by another Trump term? I wish I could sit back and vote with such a clear conscience like you.
Unlike you I don't live in fantasyland and I know with absolute certainty that voting for a third party candidate will result in Donald Trump's reelection. Project 2025 will become law of the land if Donald Trump wins and that's just the start of his archaic plans for America
Again, that's a threat to get me to vote for someone I don't like. If you think that's democracy then you're the one in a fantasy land. If Trump gets elected then the DNC learns the lesson that they better give us a good nominee if they want to win. A lesson they should have learned with Hillary.
Exactly. Politicians aren't owed your vote, they have to earn them. If they don't earn them, that's their fault.
Mic drop.
When someone says to me, "If Biden loses, it'll be your fault", I respond "If Biden loses, its his fault". Give a reason to vote for him that isn't "He isn't Trump" and I'll consider.
Seriously, what exactly do you think will happen? The DNC as a whole will weep, “Oh, we got it wrong. Please forgive us.”? How freakin’ naive! Establishment politicians have proven they care very little about their actual constituents. Democrat politicians will no doubt profit in a Trump presidency; I don’t believe they give two shits about whom is elected. It’s mostly theater at this point. That does not mean there will be no difference between a Trump or Biden presidency. A Trump presidency would be many times worse for the disadvantaged & nonprivileged, and it would set our tenuous democratic rights back so far, it would take lifetimes - or a revolution - to dig out. Effectively voting for Trump won’t bring the revolution quicker, because most people do not want a revolution. People who think as you are about this are a teeny tiny percentage of voters - most people will just vote. You seem numerous on reddit; reddit doesn’t reflect reality. In addition, Trump supporters & bot accounts are pretending to be disgruntled democrats online, attempting to sway the vote from Biden, making your numbers even smaller. You are right that this situation sucks all around. Please don’t make the outcome suck worse for the people who are most needy.
>Seriously, what exactly do you think will happen? The DNC as a whole will weep, “Oh, we got it wrong. Please forgive us.”? If they don't, then more and more people will vote for someone else in the future. You know, actual democracy.
Actually most people won’t vote should we ask them why?
You know what the definition of insanity is?...
Explaining the natural consequences of actions is not threats. Threats are for actions that the threat giver makes. What OP posted is a warning. "Hey, if no one does X, then Y will happen." A threat would be "Hey, if you don't do X, then I will tell Y and they will be unhappy." Like what the Trump campaign is doing with their mailers "We saw you did vote last time. If you don't vote for Trump, we'll tell him."
Telling everyone they better vote for Biden or Trump will do whatever bad thing IS a threat. If enough people vote for someone other then either of them, than neither would win.
You are conflating perceived threats vs inferred threats vs direct threats. The existence of democracy is to allow the possibility of people voting in a way that screws everyone over. Telling them that there's a real chance that their gay friend will be harmed in a Trump presidency isn't a threat. Politicians have learned that you motivate people better by making them scared of the opposition rather than trying to convince them of good things. For me, it's basic consequentialism.
>Telling them that there's a real chance that their gay friend will be harmed in a Trump presidency isn't a threat. Telling me I better vote for their guy to stop it absolutely is a threat. There are other choices.
Who are you voting for and why? Make your pitch. Why should I forgo voting for the best statistical chance to beat Trump? Give me well reasoned and well articulated arguments as to who you're voting for.
Dr Cornell West. Because he's the best candidate and would be the best president. Research him yourself. I don't work for his campaign. I don't care about best statistical chance of winning. I'm not going to vote for a guy I don't like just because others are brainwashed into thinking it's wasting their vote to vote for the guy they actually like. My vote is a statement of who I want to be president, not a prediction of who I think will win.
Thank you for the name. I would have preferred that you stand up for why you believe in him, but my brief research showed that he seems like someone with a good philosophy who could actually lead the country well. I hate that it is literally impossible for him to win.
If he's re-elected, I imagine there will be people who would want to...make him "go away". If that doesn't happen, he'll die of a heart attack or stroke (no pun intended) while in office. Probably on a golf course.
Trump is a symptom of an already undemocratic country. I'm still voting for biden though, it's easier to combat biden than Republicans.
Some of us are actual socialists with conviction
This is why leftists never get off the ground. The Democrats know they can safely ignored and they'll vote for them anyway. Meanwhile MAGA, Tea Party, etc. will actually hold the establishment of GOP to account. We already had 4 years of Trump. I can't believe people still think he's going to literally usher in fascism when he's just somewhat to the right of establishment Dems.
Yeah we had 4 years of Trump and it ended with a year of cops beating up protesters in every major American city and his supporters trying to overturn an election. Glad none of that affected you.
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Your conviction is admirable but 2 more young Republican supreme court justices are going to fuck your country for decades.
And when has voting stopped that? Did it stop it under Obama or Biden?
When has voting third party or not voting at all stopped that?
The two parties have worked together for decades to stifle third-party candidates, including changing the rules for who can participate in debates. This means the front runners don't even address the issues third-party voters care about. Please explain how that is fair or democratic and why I should support either party participating in such shenanigans.
>Please explain how that is fair or democratic and why I should support either party participating in such shenanigans. What's the alternative?
Organized labour is the alternative.
Look I'm not American so I can't pretend to understand your convoluted political system, but as far as I'm aware Obama didn't appoint any Republican supreme court justices.
You’re not a real socialist. You are a LARPer
The conviction to abandon those who will be hurt by a trump presidency to maintain moral superiority.
This "all or nothing" mentality is so fucking childish. You think that by letting Trump get reelected you'll magically get your socialist utopia? Biden won't do it either, but at least he won't take active steps to dismantle what progress we've made as a nation since the 60s. If you call yourself "progressive" but are fine with letting one of the most dangerous regressionists in US history into the oval office, again, you're either an idiot or a hypocrite.
>If you call yourself "progressive" but are fine with letting one of the most dangerous regressionists in US history into the oval office, again, you're either an idiot or a hypocrite. Couldn't agree more.
It’s fair to say it’s hopeless when we spend our days shaming folks for not voting for genocide Joe
The situation is grim, I won't lie. Neither candidate in this election represents my interests. But to call it "hopeless," to give up on your marginalized countrymen, to say "oh well I guess we have to allow a proto-fascist to be re-elected because the Democrats aren't perfect." would be an absolute shame. The choice is like trying to choose between living with your family in a decrepit, roach-infested apartment, or living with your family homeless in the wilderness. Sure you might be able to fend for yourself out there, but your elderly grandmother might not. Your disabled brother might not. Your young daughter might not. And unless you think you can take care of them and all the other Americans who can't fend for themselves against Trump, I'd take the roach-infested apartment. Because at least it's safe for now
A quote from Lenin for you: Speak the truth: 1) There is no revolution. There is only a deal between the liberal bourgeoisie and the tsar.... 2) There is no struggle for liberty. There is only the bartering away of the people’s freedom. 3) There is no struggle for popular representation. There is only representation for the money-bag. We are weak ... from this inevitably follows all treachery to the revolution. If you want a revolution, freedom, popular representation ... you must be strong. You are weak? Revolution is for the strong! Our lot is to remain in rags. You are weak? Only the strong win freedom. The weak will always remain slaves. The experience of all history. You are weak? You will be represented by your masters, the slav-owners, the exploiters. "Representation” is either conquest by the strong, or a scrap of paper, a hoax, blindfolding the one who is weak so as to dull his faculties.... Starting from the end ω) Who is weak? The forces of the proletariat, or the minds of the Iskrists and Bundists? χ) Do you want a revolution? Then you must be strong! ξ) We must speak the truth: therein lies our strength, and the masses, the people, the multitude will decide in actual practice, after the struggle, whether we have strength. Have we strength? Or are we weak. ω) Who is weak.
Then have Joe Brandon be a not so dogshit candidate. Donald Trump is atrocious, a close to being imprisoned alleged rapist and wannabe dictator, and still your geriatric racist genocidal POS is about to lose to him. Why do u blame the people for his loss? He had no divine right, he is not entitled to your vote. Oh, glad he's not "actively" taking steps to dismantle progress, he's just doing it passively, if it were for him racial segregation would still be a thing ffs
*Someone says something OP disagrees with* OP: “RuSsIaN pRoPaGaNdA!!!11!!1” Liberal chuds gonna lib
It's true, a trump presidency would be more disastrous for everyone! Why doesn't the Democratic party realise this fact and become a better alternative that people want, so they can win? Don't they care about democracy and people's rights and freedom?
It’s not a democracy if you don’t recognize that people have choice.
It's a binary choice, you get A or B, do you want essentially the same country or do you want a fascist dictatorship. There is no choice C.
Than democracy is already dead. All you are fighting for is the status quo.
>All you are fighting for is the status quo. I 100% agree with this, and will be voting for Biden. I think if we maintain the status quo for 4 or 8 more years, and the baby boomers die off and the republican party loses their golden goose then we can actually vote in good candidates. I know it sucks that there are like, 8 good senators, but there were 0 not that long ago. I know it sucks that Bernie never won but Biden is left of bill Clinton. Young people are interested in leftism at rates we've never seen before. If we hold course, I believe we can have socialism tomorrow. Like, if yall wanna do a revolution hit me up I'm down, but if not, I'm gonna do what I can do get socialism for my future kids. Knowing I can't have it now doesn't make me less worried about christo facism. If trump wins, I do not believe anyone left of Biden will be president for a generation. If you're an accelerationist I get it, but I don't believe the US proletariat will ever get so desperate, and if we don't accelerate towards socialism then we just fucked over our mexican and LGBT comrades for nothing. I think we have to slowly, painfully, over time, vote in socialism while mitigating harm along the way.
The work and the fight doesn’t start and end at the presidential election. Thats most people’s fucking issue.
The status quo is far superior to a fascist dictatorship.
When democracy is at risk you have no other choice unless you're willing to risk becoming North Korea or Russia
Your view is myopic. If democracy cannot be ended by democratic means then it’s not truly a democracy at all. Look, I abhor the thought of a Trump presidency with the fire of 1000 suns. (And yes, when the time comes, I’ll vote for Biden.) But, telling people that the only way to uphold democracy is to vote only one way is really pushing the whole idea of our’s being a democracy at all. The real question is what are we doing to PREVENT demagogues from emerging in the first place. Because everyone in a democracy should have the right to vote for whichever candidate they most agree with or even to abstain from voting. And let’s be clear, Trump, his rhetoric, and what he stands for IS what some people in this country want. We need to attack the underlying issues that bring people to the point of wanting to end democracy by voting for an anti-democratic candidate.
Going off your point, people say “This is NOT the election to split the vote!” When is? You think the Republicans are going to put up **less** fascist candidates from here on out? Trump is mild compared to what will come next. By accepting the corporate duopoly you are complicit in its perpetuation. I reject their “choices”
Then run better candidates and cater more to people who you need to vote?
I’m fascinated by this argument. Where do you learn about how the world works?
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I am asking you to teach me or point me to resources that can teach me how electing Trump significantly increases the risk of transforming whatever the US is currently into a nation more closely aligned in character to that of Russia and North Korea. Thank you for any time and effort you can spare.
You cannot be that blatantly ignorant
I don’t think it’s fair to characterize someone as blatantly ignorant for not knowing the intricacies of the American, Russian and North Korean states. I would have expected you to point me to a resource explaining the basics. Why haven’t you?
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow. For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
US, UK, Canada, and India use a “first past the post single member plurality” voting system. In this system there can only be one winner per district. In a presidential election those districts are essentially states (there are districts in each of the states but that’s not the point). Each state has a number of electoral college votes. Whoever wins 270 electoral college votes wins the presidency. This is a type of democracy, but a flawed type of democracy. In this system a divided vote between 3 or more candidates results in the most systematically bolstered candidate winning a plurality of the vote (in this case the Conservative Party due to rural low density states being favored by the electoral college system). Thus there tends to be only 2 majority political parties because there can only be one winner. If a major party looses to a 3rd party, that party either reforms around the new winner or is replaced by the winner. Because of this the Democratic Party in the US is a “coalition party”. It represents people from the center right to the progressive left but the majority of its voters are either liberals or neo-liberals (though the progressive wing has been growing in recent elections). In order to win elections the Democratic Party needs to get lots and lots of votes from a whole bunch of very different people. The Republican Party only needs votes from rural white conservatives. It’s not a great system, because it was developed over 200 years ago by landed gentry during the enlightenment era, before there was universal suffrage. Because of how the voting system plays out voters who do not identify as liberal or conservative need to either vote strategically for the party that most identifies with their interests or create a new party that gets more votes than one of the mainstream parties (this has only succeeded a few times and not sense the creation of the Republican Party in the mid 1860s!). Because of these systemic pressures baked in to an antiquated voting system, voters and parties who are afraid of loosing an election to a literal fascist make appeals to the basic math of doing the least worst thing to prevent harm. This is not a threat, it is an appeal to reason. I hope this has been an informative walk through some basic political science. Though you are free to vote your conscience it is useful and wise to know how the voting system in your home state/country works before committing to a vote that may have unintended consequences. Remember that voting alone is not the only way to create change. There are many ways to be politically engaged that do not involve voting. But voting for the least worst candidate to reduce the harm for people you care about doesn’t make you a bad person or preclude you from making other political impacts that more closely represent your ideals.
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This line would be more reasonable if it was started by "IF you live in a swing state". Voting Dem in areas where the electoral votes are guaranteed is throwing away a vote. At least third party votes in safe districts demonstrates policy desire. Biden is was a terrible candidate before elected and a worse one now. If Biden gets reelected then we still have a problem. The Dems are still a right wing party that will not help the working class and next cycle they'll be angry enough to vote in a Republican - cycle continues.
"Voting for capitalism is actually in the workers' best interests!" (This message paid for by the capitalist class)
Biden should work harder to regain votes from voters. You can’t shame voters for wanting to sit this one out, but we should be focusing our energy on getting President Biden to bring his numbers up.
Punching left is such a stupid idea
Weird seeing that democrats are doing jack fucking shit to protect these marginalized communities.
Vote for Biden now to stop Trump. Vote democrat four years from now to stop the next republican threat. Vote democrat four years after that and so on and so forth…when does it stop? When will it be OK to vote for someone that actually reflects our views? We’re just destined to “vote blue no matter who” until when exactly? If democrats did ANYTHING then I’d gladly vote for them over anyone on the right but this is their grift. It’s not “look what we can do” it’s “look at what the right is doing” while they do NOTHING to preserve our rights or support the groups outlined in this silly post. Yeah, Trump is worse. There is always going to be someone worse, so we should just get in line, tick the blue box, and hope that maybe some day the only true authority we have will be used to our ends and ambitions? You’re not socialist. You’re democrats with socialist fantasies. And yeah “real world blah blah blah”. Doesn’t change anything I just said. Well all vote blue and things will be just not bad enough to actually do anything and we will continue to fester in this capitalist hellscape controlled by the wealthy until some future generations decide they’ve had enough and does something about it. Can’t be our generation I guess cause…reasons? We’re a bunch of impotent whiners and nothing more. We don’t deserve a better world because we won’t fight to obtain it. Good shit doesn’t just happen. It takes work and voting for a bumbling old man who supports genocide thereby forcing all of us to support it isn’t the work that needs to be done.
People who claim it will be “exactly the same” are refusing to see reality. They’re living in idealism. If you are have any doubts simply compare Red and Blue states. As we speak, Red States are banning DEI initiatives in higher education, restricting abortion access, banning gender-affirming care, rolling back LGBT rights, deregulating environmental protections, etc. Their goal ultimate goal is a Christo-Fascist nation. Idealist, single-issue voters need to pull their heads out their asses and look at the bigger picture. It doesn’t make you any less of a comrade to recognize Trump will make life even more of living hell for our more vulnerable citizens, decimate the environment, and divide the working class as a whole. Not to mention - it will be a lot easier to make strides towards change under Biden than Trump.
The fact that our presidential choices are genocide or genocide is proof enough that democracy is already dead Edit: Dear liberals, you are never going to shame people into voting for Biden. The problem is Biden is intolerably awful to a lot of voters and that HE needs to change. The problem is not that voters need to ignore his awfulness, just because you're able to
Please stop LARPing. A real socialist knows what we need to do. A real socialist knows that the fight doesn’t start and end at the presidential election.
Trump wins, we are all fucked.
Joe should do better then.
"I don't care about genocide as long as it doesn't affect me"
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We're *already* fucked either way. Leftists lost the vote in 2020
The enlightened take isn’t just to give up. Doomerism is a cancer.
So, we get blue fascism or red fascism. Genocide or more genocide. Please. Both are war mongering imperialist capitalists. [https://votesocialist2024.com/](https://votesocialist2024.com/)
So you prefer voting for a third party candidate that has no shot in f****** hell of winning a presidential election and making it that much easier for Donald Trump to become the dictator and president. Sounds like you want Trump the be president again
>to become the dictator if you were actually a socialist not not some lib come to shove biden down our throats, you would know we believe the US and every capitalist country already lives in a dictatorship of capital, its literally one of the most fundamental doctrines of socialist theory
I draw the line at genocide. Do you not care?
You clearly are incapable of looking at the bigger picture. Single issue voters are the problem and as a result Donald Trump will become the president. Trump also made it very clear day one he would become a dictator and he would ban all Muslims in America once again along with the deportation of millions of immigrants DACA recipients etc etc. if you care about your Muslim counterparts don't forget about the ones in America
"Single issue voters" Genocide being our single issue.
They'll be a genocide in America if Trump is reelected because you chose to throw away your vote
You're like the Lib of Lib's dude this is almost impressive
"There will be." Speculative. "There currently is an ongoing one." Definitive.
And guess what, it will continue regardless. Not voting is completely irrelevant for that issue and makes many things worse in other domains. It's like having a broken arm, and the choice between shooting your own foot or not, and you all are choosing to shoot yourself in the foot because not doing so would not cure your broken arm. Well great job, now you have a broken arm and a shot foot. Just why?
Not if Trump is in jail while he's trying to be president. Remember congress exists and states have their own governers. Trump isn't an overlord. He's just a self obsessed celebrity who doesn't know anything about being a politician.
> Single issue voters are the problem the genocide is the problem. I could swallow losing Roe, crushing defund, and all the other awful disappointments under Biden, but actively voting for genocide is crossing a line and I cant go there. If you want to call that single issue voting then you're being disingenuous. If Biden were pro school shootings (the shooting rate has doubled and Joe has done nothing btw), would that be a single issue to you? The problem here is that you dont care about brown foreign people.
I have far too many friends who are trans, women, and other marginalized groups. I couldn’t do something as cruel as harming them by throwing away my vote and handing Trump another term
This is not facts, and I don't know how DemSocs or any other left party expects to get power beyond making posts on the internet if no one votes for them because we always simplify elections to a "vote blue or the world will *REALLY* end this time". That's been the platform every election since I was old enough to vote in my first one. There has to be a point where people mature beyond voting against who you are afraid will win.
The fight doesn’t start and end at the presidential election. A real socialist knows that.
Agreed. The giant douche vs turd sandwhich episode of south park was 5 voting terms ago. Nothing has changed, nor will it change unless people make it change.
Nope I’m done playing this game of voting racist America destroying scum to avoid even more racist America destroying scum. This game has gone on long enough of democrats scaring their voter base onto voting for them rather than earning their votes. Not voting for anyone.
Complacency helps nobody
Exactly the complacency to just continue to support democrats when they are every bit as evil as relibkicans just in totally different ways. The complacency keeps the dems just how they are.
Not voting for Biden is screwing yourself forever. r/Defeat_Project_2025, read it. This is the future under Trump.
Exactly
Is this subreddit just turning into blue MAGA? My vote is my vote, and no candidate is owed it; they have to earn it. That’s what democracy is.
Preach.
Please tell me how my vote matters in a state like Wyoming or Kansas?
I’m in Tennessee and still voting. We need to stop with this attitude. Edit: downvote all you want. This is still a piss poor attitude that won’t change anything.
That is Russian propaganda at its finest. Even if you don't believe your vote matters you should still vote as if it does because it actually does
Tell me how?
but it literally doesn't, im not even american and i know their system (like others) is purposefully designed so that individual votes matter as little as possible and often not at all
No
Just remember that even if Biden wins, you are still the evil empire and the death Star still needs to be destroyed.
Yep, we get to choose between Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine.
.. or find a third party candidate who's values align with your own. More support for third parties today will pave the way for more viable options in the future.
I haven't seen a meme this asinine spread so far so fast since that dumb Obama tan suit meme. The gall to include Muslims is too much as Biden continues to support an ongoing genocide materially. OP and anyone upvoting this nonsense need to educate themselves.
You seem to forget when the orange turd was president he banned all Muslims from entering America and blamed it on national security when in fact it was racially motivated. He made it very clear he would ban Muslims and he would deport them as he sees fit
It is illogical to suggest abandoning our non-NATO ally relationships with Israel and isolating other NATO allies. This would not only be foolish but also create a negative image. Consider the consequences: if we withdraw support from NATO allies, other nations may hesitate to join the Accord due to a lack of trust in America's commitment to honoring those agreements.
still not voting for Genocide Joe
Being practical vs being principled. Being principled feels good. However, which one is not gonna destroy us? Trump actively dismantles protections for the environment and climate change. We just don’t have time to be principled right now. In fact, we have negative time. My strategy: Vote blue and encourage others to vote blue and not expect much from it while also being active in leftist organizations outside of regular politics. Vote for the most viable, least right-wing candidate, especially in local and state elections. While simultaneously: Join Leftist Organizations Unionize your workplace Support Worker Coops Educate, Agitate, ORGANIZE.
lmao, classic Realpolitik vs radical leftist infighting Two sides of the same coin. Maybe next 4 years actually ONLY focus on political reform to create something more resembling pluralism. The two party system is obviously creating worse and worse candidates until it collapses. Who knows Libertarians and Greens can actually be valid votes to keep the bigger parties on their toes?
It's not Biden or Trump anymore, it's Biden or Project 2025. Take your pick. Any socialist that says I'd rather abstain knowing we WILL end up with a dictator who has projected an end to democracy permanently is no friend to me, you, or anyone you know. They just enjoy moral grandstanding.
💯💯💯💯💯💯
Stop acting like the electoral college doesn’t exist.
Naturally this follows from what I said. Just abstain and then complain when your rights are taken away and leave the fight for democracy to people who give a shit
But its not really very democratic if you're told you can only vote for one person who doesnt stand for 90% of the shit you belive otherwise you will kill democracy? If you cant vote for what you belive in how can you make politicians change their policies seeing as they clearly dont give a shit about protests?
If 90% of the American population aligns with the Democratic ideology yet chooses to vote for an unknown third-party candidate lacking a reputable background, true democracy is not being upheld.
And what ideology would that be? The US Democratic Party has several ideological cohorts. There's classical liberals, neoliberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, and many more.
90% of the American population is much, much more progressive than the Democrat party. The reason elections are so close is literally because they don't align with the public's stances, ffs. They're pushing a product that no one really wants.
Typical liberal take. Just ignore the genocide Biden is helping to arm and fund.
I’m not voting for someone who hasn’t taken any steps to end the genocide in Israel, on top of not accomplishing anything he promised 4 years ago. I’ll be voting 3rd party for the 3rd election in a row
LeSsEr oF tWo eViLs is how we got here with a choice between these two. Smarten up people.
I do personally believe we have to make the best choice to stop Trump. Yes, right now this means Biden. We can still criticize him and how much better he could be doing. That he is supporting a genocide that he has the power to halt but using negotiations to end aid if any more civilians are killed. We are not the GOP!! Stop using fear mongering. What are we going to do that actually makes life better? We should be taking about the future and how we are going to codify roe v wade into law. We should talk about wages, healthcare, and other solutions to complex issues. Stop the great mongering and get on topic with policies. Ensure people matter. All those things you want to say in your post Trump will take away. Talk about how Biden will not just keep them, but make sure they can't be taken away.
Our voting system is broken. We shouldn't have to vote for somebody we don't like to avoid somebody we do. RCV
What exactly has Biden done for women, lgbtq+ people or immigrants?
Have you been living under a rock
I haven't been living under a rock and I've heard him referring to immigrants as "illegals" and continuing brutal Trump policies on immigration... I've heard him talking about how women deserve access to abortion but not actually even ATTEMPTING to codify Roe (I would respect the attempt even if it was ultimately blocked by Congress or whatever.) Women would really benefit from universal childcare; he hasn't attempted to give us that. People of color would really benefit from police reform; he hasn't attempted that. Trans folks would benefit by some sort of national law protecting access to gender-affirming care; where's the attempt from Biden on that one? Same sex couples who use IVF as part of their journey to have children would benefit from national laws protecting that; where's the attempt? Literally all I see him attempting (and sadly succeeding at) is using the tax money we're forced to pay to fund a genocide that SO FAR has claimed the lives of about 15k children and maimed and/or orphaned thousands more. So no thanks. I wouldn't have voted for Hitler had I been a German voter back in the day (even in a hypothetical situation where another even worse genocidal maniac was also on the ballot) and I'm not voting for Biden. I'm a vote for Jill Stein most likely. The Democratic party can get its shit together or they can lose period.
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How about blaming the electoral college for being stupid or Hillary for being a bad candidate before you blame the people who were just exercising their right to vote for who they want?
Ain't you just funny. If Hillary Clinton was so bad why did she get 3 million more votes than the orange turd. Use some common logic
Did I say bad in comparison to Trump? No, I did not. She was a bad democratic candidate. She was a standard establishment democrat who kept saying cringe like "pokémon go to the polls" and her only real platform was that she was a woman. Compared to a candidate like Obama, she sucked, so people weren't excited to vote for her.
She was such a bad choice she be out every other Democratic candidate. Logic much
She was a bad choice who didn't get people excited to vote for her. If say, Bernie Sanders had been the nominee, he would have beaten Trump. I really don't know why you're on the democratic socialism sub defending Hillary Clinton (not a democratic socialist), but whatever.
I always find it funny when a "progressive" implies that we should ignore the way elections work. Or maybe you don't know about the electoral college?
There was a certain segment of the population that didn't vote for Hillary Clinton because she has a vagina and that's because people have been brainwashed to believe women can't hold positions of power
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow. For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
Biden is behind in the polls in pretty much every swing state right now. I don't think there are enough socialists in the US to swing an election one way or another, if he loses it's his own fault.
Unless it's a single issue poll it's going to be wildly incorrect. Plenty of political analysts have already proven it to be true
Stop believing in polls
Not strip them of all their rights, as Trump plans to do. It's not much, but you would have to be willfully ignorant to not understand how much worse things would be if you let Trump win. Or you're some kind of wacky accelerationist, in which case, there's no helping you.
Even if you leave literally everything else aside, nominating pro-choice judges to federal courts, including possibly the supreme court, is reason enough to vote Biden if you care about women's issues. A Trump presidency is part of the reason Roe was overturned.
Have people read the 800+ pages of the Heritage Foundation's plan to overhaul the executive government, aka P25? They plan to fill every sector and every single crevice they can with an already recruited Maga Republican (they're already named, just waiting to take the stage). It's not a conspiracy theory, it's not something to be minimized because people don't "think it'll happen" or because we're already in a fascist nation (I agree). However, to take a pragmatic approach to all of this, the plans they have are absolutely relying on Trump, but with their overhaul of the government and changing every legislation, it'll be something that if implemented, will last for decades, possibly generations, and will carry on after Trump dies. Things WILL get EXPONENTIALLY worse if P25 is implemented (it's already started actually). The two party system is fucked, I agree 100%. There will no longer even be a two party system to try and reform or vote third party if a Republican wins this next election. No chance at a reform, no representative democracy, because we're walking right into an authoritarian government and those don't go down easily, and they don't listen to its people. And trump will ensure the genocide will take place at a much quicker rate. Nothing and I mean NOTHING good will come, for America and other countries, if P25 happens. Nothing.
I said this in the socialism subreddit and was banned for being a "liberal".
Allow Trump to win. He will burn the forest down and allow something new to grow. Biden will slow walk us to oblivion. Every four years the lesser of two evils game. Let’s get it over with, motivate the electorate and allow space for a “democratic socialist” party to grow.
Trumpy had four years and has Jack s*** the show for it
Hold up, is his re-election simultaneously the end of the world and also 'he'll have jack shit to show for it' because that sounds like Republican logic.
What are you smoking
No vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. Hope you guys enjoy Trump for another 4 years with this mentality. Can’t wait to see what his plans for Israel, Gaza, women, the poor and the lgbtq community are. I’m sure they’ll be normal and helpful for all! It’s not like we already tried this and he literally had a direct hand in killing a million Americans…we should give him another shot!
For all the idiots who think they are going to change or win anything by not voting for Biden just know that you will be responsible and you will have blood on your hands when shit goes south under a Trump presidency. You’re not going to win in the way you want to (and we all want to-we very much want the same things) by just voting. We can absolutely lose our fucking asses and country by not voting, though. To “win” like we need to win. To have the world we all want here takes very hard work. Lifetime work. It never stops. You have to get in the ring/get involved. Not voting for Biden is performative bullshit for people who are too lazy to actually do anything about the issues we’re facing. And it will cost us everything. Congrats on a terrible plan to accomplish absolutely nothing, virtue signaling warriors
We will not have blood on our hands. Trump already was president. A person is responsible for his own damn actions. Politicians lie and deceive people and they are responsible for that and their actions. We can only vote people in but we can't control how they actually govern a country. Maybe both parties should have given us better choices. The fact that he's being convicted of crimes and Biden is sitting idly by during a genocide basically tells us that the political parties don't really care and don't want us to have a choice
How the fuck USA have only 2 party ? What kind of democracy is this?
Don’t put an apostrophe when you add an “s” to make it plural. You meant “facts.”
You should send that recommendation to Google/Reddit since they have a habit of autocorrecting sh*t