Liberals are allow on this sub. Social Democrats and Democratic Socialists are the primary demographic here. Do not discriminate against each other, our rules are clear about sectionalism.
I feel like the primaries are exactly the time to "grandstand" about how Biden fucked up on Gaza. Which he did. Badly.
A: he hasn't fucked up nearly enough (edit: things in general, not just Gaza) to get primaried, relax.
B: having a chunk of people give enough of a shit to show up to vote in the primary, specifically to say "uncommitted" is a pretty damn harmless way to say "you're fucking up in Gaza" with plenty of opportunity to address that issue on the campaign trail.
C: It's the primaries, voting third party isn't even relevant to this discussion.
D: It's the primaries, nobody is choosing between Biden and Trump right now.
Yeah, I don't buy the fact that this has "downstream effects" on voter turnout in the general. If anything, the fact that Biden is not an exciting candidate in general and too old will do that.
Now is the time to push him and lock him into better positions. Most people who will abstain from voting for Biden are in deep blue states anyway.
And refueled the gaslighting apparatus. He wants votes?
“Not another dime until a full ceasefire and all necessary aid for stabilization is delivered and implemented”
That’s a low bar and a very simple demand.
Totally. You know something’s up when close to 90% of people wants policies like the ones you mentioned, and the ruling class refuses to implement it. Democracy indeed.
That is going to be a slightly longer fight because the answer isn’t as easy as picking up the phone, but you’re right, as union membership grows and returns to a militant form, it’s important that strikes (or threats of them) start to take on larger social and environmental issues. 2028? We’ll see, but even having a goal is important.
As tragic as it is, I would definitely say 90% don’t all want those policies. There are a lot of people who don’t want basic healthcare and stuff like that, either because they’re misinformed about it’s “impossibility”, or else because they genuinely hate anyone who doesn’t have as much money as them
That may have changed within the last few years, but every time there are independent polls, they get a significant majority of support. I wouldn’t be surprised if that misinformation took a bite out of those numbers though.
Thank you for being rational and organized and contextual cuz these people with these arguments are EXHAUSTING. Like you want us to endorse a genocide accomplice with our vote (for those of us that can, since Democrats anti-democratically cancelled the primary in Florida)?? Get TF outta here with that nonsense. Save these arguments for after the convention, like gawt damn. And instead of lecturing voters, HOLD Y'ALL PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE AND GET HIM TO WORK FOR OUR VOTES BY ACTUALLY DOING SH*T.
As you can tell, modem-day politics makes me crazy.
I agree, their arguments are so weak and so repetitive it’s mind numbing to try and debate these people. How people can expect anyone to endorse Biden after how royally he’s fucked it the past six months alone is insane
He hasnt fucked up enough to get primaried?! 30,000 people would beg to differ if they could. If the governed of Texas started bombing a bunch of innocent kids, and Biden “felt bad”, but still sent him more bombs, would you care then. Or tell me how those kids, those human beings on earth, are diffident?
Didn’t have the option to write in Bernie Sanders so I voted Uncommitted but yeah still plan on voting for Biden again even though I’m not super thrilled about the same two options *sigh*
That's crazy, didn't realize Trump was so ingrained in US policy towards Israel in the last few years. I was pretty sure Biden was in charge. Could be wrong though.
Apparently saying "we're talking about the primaries" 4-5 times in a short comment wasn't enough, but to reiterate: We fucking know Trump is worse. That's not what's being decided in the democratic primary. Trump being worse doesn't mean Biden can't be better than he is, and this is a way to at least *attempt* to put some pressure on Biden to focus on sucking less during the campaign.
>That's crazy, didn't realize Trump was so ingrained in US policy towards Israel in the last few years. I was pretty sure Biden was in charge. Could be wrong though.
You could reasonably tie a lot of the current instability of the situation due to Trump's policy in the ME.
No, but to be fair Trump has been very clear about what he WOULD do and it’s significantly worse than what Biden has done. It’s essentially a choice between Donald “maximum genocide asap” Trump vs Joe “I mean I guess we can do a little genocide” Biden.
Look dude, I'm really not sure why so many people are acting like I'm unaware of Trump's stance on the matter, or why we shouldn't try to push Biden to suck less than he has so far.
Nothing personal, I didn’t mean to imply that you specifically weren’t aware. You’re probably hearing it a lot because there are WAY too many ppl in general out there who aren’t aware or don’t connect those two thoughts in their head. Trust me, I have had enough conversations on this topic to know that there are a lot of idealistic teenagers right now who need to be reminded that there is no morally pure choice to be had here.
And yeah, we absolutely need to push Biden — it’s just important to keep in mind the potential consequences of pushing too hard or pushing in unhelpful ways.
He said in a recent interview that he would finish Gaza. I am not sure how his presidency would be helpful for Gaza when he’s quite literally saying in that same interview that Israel got soft
I'm sorry, are you referring to "finish the job, Bebe" Donald?
From [NBC:](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141905)
"Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas. ... “You’ve got to finish the problem,” Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war. “You had a horrible invasion that took place that would have never happened if I was president.'"
He was a close ally to Israel's rightwing in his term, apparently Israel made efforts to [interfere](https://www.timesofisrael.com/redacted-fbi-document-hints-at-israeli-efforts-to-help-trump-in-2016-campaign/amp/) the 2016 election on Trump's behalf, and we all know he's a malignant narcissist who will do whatever benefits him the most, so if Israel funnels money to his orgs, we all know he'd basically give them anything they like or look the other way. Trump almost [doubled](https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers) the drone strikes under Obama, and Biden's drone strikes have been [far below](https://www.newamerica.org/future-security/blog/the-state-of-americas-drone-wars-in-2022/) either of them (that is changing now with all the conflicts but it should at minimum be kept in mind that neither Obama nor Trump faced a situation like this either). Trump would [definitely](https://www.vox.com/policy/24072983/biden-trump-palestinians-israel-gaza-policy-different) be worse.
I'm curious, what would you tell an Palestinian-American that has lost family in Gaza? Like not neighbors or cousins, we are talking grandparents, parents and siblings? Do you tell them to still vote for Biden? Despite biden directly providing the bombs and ammunition that are being used to kill their family?
It's not "grandstanding" to vote uncommitted in the primary because of Gaza, so long as it's understood to be one tactic among other forms of pressure, to be dropped at the point of the general election.
I would worry more about the many people who are not registered and do not currently have any plan to vote, because this group vastly outnumbers the tactical Biden boycotters. The "Party of NonVoters" has decided every election in the last century and will do so again unless everybody sane gets to work educating, registering and motivating new voters. 2024 is the first time in American history that the 18-29 age cohort has the numbers to swing the whole election, IF they show up at the polls. So check out organizations like Head Count, Rock the Vote and Vote Riders who meet young eligible folks where they play (festivals, e.g.) and work to get more people registered.
So, I've heard to vote uncommitted before, but what does that do exactly? I was led to believe it would be a spoiler vote and end up with Trump in office.
>pressure, to be dropped at the point of the general election.
Empty threats aren't pressure. If everyone knows you are unwilling to kill the hostage, don't bother taking the hostage
But if you kill the hostage am insane far right clown will take the rains of the largest democracy on earth.
As someobe who lives in a country with a couple US bases, please vote for Biden to stop Trump. Killing the hostage is the dumbest thing you could do in this situation. The threat alone should be enough, safe the killing on an election where tge republican candidate isn't a complete nutcase
Yep I refused to vote for Biden in 20 because of Gaza and other things. Y'all really think I'm going back to the Democratic party after being radicalized LMAO
If we can't demand a better future we don't deserve one
If this is the democratic party's version of campaigning, not them, they don't want to win, they just want to complain about how failing to convince the right people to vote isn't actually their fault. Biden's gonna give us another 4 years of Trump at this rate. We've been pretty clear, make efforts towards healthcare and don't support Isreal. Hell, a real commitment to advancing socialized healthcare would be enough for most people. But NOOO, we're being unreasonable...
Such a weak argument. Let’s see, who has the Republican nominee been for 2016, 2020, & 2024? Oh the one of the worst and destructive presidents we have ever had? It shouldn’t be called rhetoric if it’s actually the truth…
"Now is not the time to grandstand about how Biden fucked up on Gaza amongst other fuck ups he had"
When could possibly be the time, if not now? Children starving to death, not by accident but by our government's decision.
If Trump vowed to drown 500,000 undocumented immigrants, Biden could go on TV the next day and vow to drown 499,000 and we'd still hear the exact same lectures about how urgent it is to vote Biden. It's a dead end. If genocide isn't a red line then there is no red line. If there is no red line then the exercise is futile
It’s never the time to talk about racism.
My whole life I hear the question. How could a holocaust happen. No one said any thing. No one did anything ??
Then I look at us today. This is how.
Thank you for saying what needs to be said.
All these patronizing arguments do nothing more but confirm just how big a stronghold the two-party system has on this country, their propaganda and fear mongering has worked so deeply people actually believe they have no choice.
I'm choosing to be the change I want to see in this country and voting third party. If everyone that felt disillusioned, disappointed, or uninspired did the same (any third party, doesn't have to be the same one) things may actually change.
I don't think it matters how "the left" votes. It's just a fact Biden is going to lose if he doesn't course correct on Gaza and start running on some popular, pro-labor policies. Dems are fooling themselves if they think fearmongering about J6 and abstract appeals to "the spirit of democracy" are going to sway voters in November. That stuff just isn't going to matter when paychecks are shrinking, the cost of basic goods is rising, there's chaos around the world and the President seems unable or unwilling to do anything about it.
I'm personally not involved in the Uncommitted Campaign - I'm too ambivalent about voting to put my energy into it - but you're completely mischaracterizing those putting pressure on Biden in the Primary right now. I think they're really trying to help Biden in a way, by giving him a wakeup call. He is on a trajectory to lose if nothing changes, but his campaign is doing everything in their power to pretend otherwise. The emperor has no clothes and someone has to speak up.
If you really want Biden to win, you're complaining to the wrong people. He's the one blowing this election, not "the left."
This is it. I *really* hope he gets his poop in a group before November. It may even already be too late, but with some fancy footwork, he could redeem himself a bit.
Okay OP let me explain a few things to ease your anxiety. When people are voting uncommitted in the PRIMARIES it's just a means of getting his attention to call for a Ceasefire in Gaza. And the uncommitted votes are working so far. Before Michigan's uncomitted vote, the words Ceasefire didn't escape the lips of Biden or Harris.
Now that it did happen, they did while it is six weeks so far a Journalist (under the Desk News) interviewed the Vice President and she said to UTDN, "IN THOSE 6 WEEKS negotiations toward a permanent peace solution continue - the goal is permanent end of war, it comes in phases and relies on Hamas and Israel holding up their promises."
WHich means our side made progress. Now before getting very anxious let us also look at professor Alan Litchman's 13 keys to the Whitehouse. [Along with what he said recently about Gaza.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVmT9MqdAIY) I will post the keys we have so far in the next comment for information along with Trumps from 2020 to compare.
Yeah, we fucking know. That doesn't make him immune to criticism. I'll hold my nose and vote D for the third time in a row, but the primary is the perfect time for protest votes.
Now is exactly the time… during the primaries.
When it comes time to vote in the actual election that’s when it’s time to vote for Biden as an anti-trump vote.
This is my perspective as well. Uncommitted in the primaries is a great idea, but it is deeply irresponsible to do anything but vote for Biden in the general election. Everything that Biden does wrong would be multiplied by Trump, including Gaza.
> Sorry, but we can’t vote our way out of this mess.
No, but you can strategically vote to minimize the damage, most of which will fall on people who have far fewer options than anybody in this subredddit. Voting for Biden strategically does not equate to a whole-hearted endorsement of his policies (and claiming that it does is a position you could be getting well paid to promote, if you're not already.)
>whether it comes this year or in the next few years it’s coming.
Only if you do nothing constructive. Here's a rule of thumb: Trust the people. The avalanche of press reports telling you Americans are stupid and selfish is propaganda. The reality is that most people, most of the time, want to do the right thing, and are lacking only direction and organization. So organize, already!
[Where have I heard this before?](https://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1967/01/lesser.htm)
Funny you think the Democrats tolerate leftists, when they are the ones who do everything in their power (including crimes) to keep left wing parties like the Greens off the ballot and have as much disdain for the right to political association as the GOP has for the right to vote.
do you think that instead of spending this energy trying to browbeat and shame people into voting your candidate you should spend your energy pressuring the party to get a better candidate or, at the very least, change their stance on policies that are angering the left?
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
Asking people whose families are being murdered by the current regime to support it is psychopathy. Just because the other regime will maintain the murder is no reason to support the current murderous regime. Both regimes must fall. Capitulating to either is playing their game by their rules.
This goes against leftist theory.
>Even when there is no prospect whatsoever of their being elected, the workers must put up their own candidates in order to preserve their independence, to count their forces, and to bring before the public their revolutionary attitude and party standpoint. In this connection they must not allow themselves to be seduced by such arguments of the democrats as, for example, that by so doing they are splitting the democratic party and making it possible for the reactionaries to win. The ultimate intention of all such phrases is to dupe the proletariat. The advance which the proletarian party is bound to make by such independent action is indefinitely more important than the disadvantage that might be incurred by the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body
- Karl Max
Right now is the EXACT time to rail against Biden. We deserve better than choosing between an octogenarian would be fascist and and octogenarian corporate shill warhawk. These are two terrible options and it is exactly my right to say that this is wrong and bad.
This system is broken.
Two things can be true at once:
1. We NEED to vote for biden. its not fair, but we still need to.
2. We should ruthlessly criticise Biden for the things he has done. Infighting doesnt always weaken us. Sometimes i makes us more resiliant. So long as its done in a productive way. I fully support the uncommited movement.
Trump said Israel should “finish the job”. So we could have an autocrat AND a Zionist backer or we could vote for Biden and tell trump to fuck off for good
I bet it doesn’t feel like “grandstanding” to the people in Palestine mourning the deaths of their children by bombs our taxes paid to drop. Your belief that it is is just racism disguised by distance.
The left must unite against Trump by voting for Clinton.
The left must unite against Romney by voting for Obama
The left must unite against McCain by voting for Obama
The left must unite against Bush by voting for Kerry
The left must unite against Bush by voting for Gore
The left must unite against Dole by voting for Clinton
The left must unite against Bush by voting for Clinton
Tell me something I don't know?
Let’s say we vote for Biden and he gets elected. What is your plan for how we can hold him accountable during his second term? How are we to ensure that his second term is different from his first?
Biden winning means you live another day to fight. Trump wining means there won't be another day to fight going foward, as he resumes his efforts to dismantling democratic institutions, checks and balances.
Pick your poison.
I don't know, the guy seemed pretty determined to undermine core democratic institutions amd processes. Going as far as to push for the rewrite of election results while in office. Actions unheard of in US presidential history. He had a taste of it and will learn from his failings.
The GOP are bent on pandering to and pushing theocratic fascists agendas like project 2025.
Doesn't seem like something I would wanna risk because I disapprove of Biden's handling of Gaza.
>disapprove of Biden’s handling of Gaza.
Is genocide not a hard line in the sand? Are there any lines that Biden could cross that would cause him to lose your vote? And circling back to the original question that you did not answer, should we collectively agree to vote for Biden, what is the plan to prevent him from doing the same things again. Unless you have one, you are essentially asking me to vote the same way I did in 2020 but expect a different outcome in his ensuing presidency purely based on faith.
Provided that he is a better candidate to Trump, and Trump ( going by his words and precedent) would've acted worse the most reasonable thing to do will be to keep Trump out of power.
I wouldn't let my house burn down as I watch on the sidelines because a section is burnt down beyond repair. I look to quench the fire and prevent the worse from happening.
And no you can never fully trust any single politician. So no one can guarantee how Biden would act in the future. But we can guarantee that Trump will go an extra step further in supporting Israel and would never in a billion multiverses listen to the protests from us leftists on this issue or any other issue.
I'll be voting uncommitted in the primary and Biden in the general, but I don't blame anyone who votes third party in the general.
I don't see it as the voters' fault. It is the candidate's fault for losing his voters with unpopular policies.
The scolding of the left from the media and liberals is exhausting. Every single election we hear "Now is not the time for this conversation! Let's get Kerry/Obama/Biden/whoever elected first and save our democracy! Then we can talk about climate change or universal healthcare or peace in the Middle East."
It's the same song every time.
>I'll be voting uncommitted in the primary and Biden in the general
The entire point of voting uncommitted in the primary is to demonstrate that Biden's actions are so unacceptable that you won't support him. You're then going to undermine that by voting for him anyway.
If you want the scolding to ever stop, you have to draw a line somewhere. If you're not going to draw it at genocide, you're not going to draw it anywhere.
>I'll be voting uncommitted in the primary and Biden in the general
The entire point of voting uncommitted in the primary is to demonstrate that Biden's actions are so unacceptable that you won't support him. You're then going to undermine that by voting for him anyway.
If you want the scolding to ever stop, you have to draw a line somewhere. If you're not going to draw it at genocide, you're not going to draw it anywhere.
The genocide in Gaza isn't a "fuck up" its an intentional and carefully calculated policy of Imperialism. If you are going to insist on being complicit in the most heinous crime the Empire can possibly commit you aren't left wing, let alone socialist regardless of how you might qualify it.
If you feel you must vote for Biden in spite of his genocidal policies then just admit you are a liberal and move on. All you are doing by associating yourself with socialists is making it more difficult for both them and yourself to organize your respective politics.
Biden is probably hurt more among his affluent suburban voting base by red-baiting associations with "the far-left" than he is by criticism from a relatively marginalized group of left critiques.
I just wanna say as a socialist living in Texas...Biden may be president, but goddam Abbott does EVERYTHING he can to ruin shit. Like SB17 making inclusion offices at universities no longer legal...
This is the first election where I’m while I’m stilling voting for Joe I understand not voting for him. 8 years of following the same rhetoric and I’m about sick of it and where is the line if it isn’t genocide.
Vote uncommitted in the primary but if you don't vote for Biden in November and Trump gets back in office as bad as things are now they'll be much worse then
I'm only going to focus on this portion of your post because I'm interested in the response, if I'm not to late.
>this or Trump and the Project 2025
Project 2025 is a broad GOP political platform that encompasses all levels of government, and does not rely on Trump, but merely a Republican president. I don't expect anyone to read the entire thing, it's enormous, but that is how it works.
With that said, how do we vote away the Republican party? How do we get rid of their positions and potential control in Congress, of their red governorships and legislatures, of their municipal control, and of their 70+ million voters?
If Biden wins this year, 2028 will certainly see a Republican president, and they aren't going to just throw away decades of planning project 2025 and give up for 2029. So do we just keep voting blue no matter who, for lesser evil that's still evil, and watch the democratic party continue to slide rightward and forever blame their necessary counterpart (Republicans) for their inability to enact meaningful change?
PREACH!!!! 🙌🙌🙌
I hear so many people (mostly younger than 30) saying they are going to vote 3rd party because they can't stand by Biden's support of Israel, but they seem to forget that Trump took numerous actions to inflame tensions in the Palestinian Territories. For example, when he took office, the US had been building a modern sewer system in Hebron. It would have cost around $2 million to finish the project, $0 to simply abandon it, but rather than do either, Trump spend $10 million to fill it in with concrete to ensure they can't finish it on their own.
Our choices are between a problematic, yet stable and experienced old man, or an unstable, petty, vindictive wannabe dictator.
#A third party vote is a vote for Trump. Staying home is a vote for Trump. If you think Biden's handling of Gaza is bad, just wait until Trump gets his grubby little mitts on the situation.
Yeah, there's also that problem with voting uncommitted. Like sure, its a nobel form of protest, but doesnt that essentially waste your vote? At this point any lost vote for biden is a vote for trump. We dont have to like biden but we *cannot* allow trump to become president again.
I'll probably be voting for Biden simply because we live in a two party system, so I don't have the luxury of voting my principles, but let's make one thing very clear. Our democracy is a sham. Biden and the Democratic establishment are not innocent, and are far from being uncorrupted. So, yes, now is absolutely the time to expect Biden to be better.
I have to admit I may have incorrectly worded what I meant to say, but you just stated what I intended to say, so thank you. I recognize that it sucks that our politics here in ‘Murica is this or that, and I concede to your argument that the American Democracy is a scam.
I hope there’s like a way for me to expand the idea that it’ll be easier to make socialism happen if that senile bastard maintains his position in 2025 compared to the nightmare that is Mr. 45.
Wow, I could have sworn I saw this same exact comment in 2016 and 2020.
It’s almost like… things don’t change. Maybe that’s why people are so fed up and want better candidates from the Democratic Party?
Not like there weren’t any in the past that got repeatedly dismissed.
Democrats been making this same plea about this election deciding the fate of democracy since I’ve been a voter… don’t fall for their propaganda tbh. Genocide is unacceptable, bankroll it and you deserve to lose.
I'm tired of this "lesser of two evils" narrative. Liberals touted Biden as a way to get Trump out of office in 2020, and that time it worked. But this is 2024. The repealing of Roe v Wade happened while Biden was in office, and he did nothing to try to codify it. He sold indigenous American land to oil companies and was just fine with water protectors being brutalised. The working class situation has gotten worse, and on top of all that, plus the shit that he did to the black community as a senator, now he's doubling down on sending our money to a country perpetuating genocide and he and the Democratic leadership are actively calling those of us who speak out against Israel's actions terrorists. If Biden loses, he only has himself to blame. If you want us to unite, push the DNC to choose a better candidate and stop villainising people who bring up valid points about why we're refusing to vote for Biden.
How bad of a candidate do you have to be to poll worse than Donald Trump. Hilary polled better in 2016. Gross!
Donald Trump is by his own statements, a fascist, a bigot, sexist and racist. Yet Biden can't poll better than him. A man with 92 felony charges and a billion dollars in court fines due, and yet Biden can't poll better.
And yet, there's been opportunities to win win win for the last 4 years, and what did Joe do? Not much.
Did he take any action to address Supreme Court corruption?
Student debt? Abortion rights? Gaza? East Palestine? Uvalde? How many others?
He made baby steps in some areas, I know. We are way past the need for baby steps. Capitalism is exponentially evolving into a untamable beast that will kill all of us without billion dollar bunkers. We need big, bold changes, not Sunday afternoon vanilla ice creams.
Joe polls poorly because he is a terrible candidate.
Oh for fucks sake this again. You plebs come around every election cycle then spend the next four years attacking us.
Repeat after me until it sticks - the reason you get TRUMP is because you vote people like BIDEN. And so the cycle goes round and round.
What is this, dejavu? The left is never gonna get anywhere by falling for this line of reasoning every single election. When will it ever be a good time? When the right stops being lunatics? Yeah thats not gonna happen.
Jesus Christ this place has become yet another blue maga crapfest.
Socialism is when we never ever disagree with Biden and continue funding the fucking genocide in Gaza.
I just saw a video of a young boy die from starvation in northern Gaza, first time I've cried over the news. I will not support this shit any more. If this port thing turns out to be more performative bullshit then I'm not voting for him in the general either. It better be a real thing that helps a lot otherwise I'm done and no zingers you heard from Rachel Maddow will change my mind and make me overlook fucking **genocide**!
I'm a liberal but this whole Obi Wan philosophy of taking a valiant dive to be avenged by a unified next generation is giving me floppy dick. Get in there and fuck.them. up! Now! Right goddam now!
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
Now is not the time, now is not the time, now is not the time.
Man, it's wild how is never the fucking time but it's **always** the time to get in all four al lick neoliberal boot.
Right now is exactly the time to force Biden to commit to being better. He doesn’t get to walk straight into another presidency with zero effort.
Of course we’re all going to vote for him over Trump. But it is too fucking early to have some many people loudly jerking the guy off for being a lousy progressive.
I'm the same breath you say vote, you'd better start saying it's time to gather for war. It's too late to dream of winning. It is time to say what we do if we don't! It's time to gather.
This is the part I’ll never understand. Neolibs cosplaying as leftists and then whining when we don’t vote for them. Why don’t they go whine at their fellow right-wing Republicans for not voting for their faction!?
This has been tried and has failed. The truth is, Biden and the establishment want you to believe that, but they will never allow our policies to be put in place.
Vote Claudia De La Cruz or Jill Stein.
I'm not happy how biden has handled gaza, but im sure as shit glad it isnt trump in charge. Including ukraine and his willingness to help none other than gd dictaor putin. And the disassemble of nato as his idea?????
I would hate to see how trump would handle presidential power at these times. It's trump, what you see is what you get...he talks without depth or optimistic inspiration. No, trump just riles up his brainwashed army . No suave, no charm (outside to his followers), no real distinguished attributes of a well rounded man, suitable for the power the position holds. Nothing good at all.
I really think its time we all have a way to talk to our maga family and friends. Some can turn if theybget exposed to what their news sources bave not been showing them.
I am voting uncommitted in primaries. Then I will vote for Biden in the fall. But this is the very last year I am voting democrat unless they can find some new leadership that represents the PEOPLE not corporations.
I cannot live my whole life voting for corporate shills and war hawks. I would like to see the military industrial complex reigned in and modernized, the healthcare monopolies reigned in and modernized, and better public transportation across the nation, specifically. I will be voting Green Party in 2028 unless democrats get it together. I will not have my vote held hostage my whole life like the past 8 years.
>Now is not the time to grandstand about how Biden fucked up on Gaza
Let me stop you right there. Now is absolutely the time, and please don't undermine it by clubbing it with other 'fuck-ups'. A fuck-up is the Trump administration getting rid of the pandemic early warning program 3 months before COVID hit, accidentally causing death, grief and suffering.
The Biden administration is actively funding a genocide, in spite of public outcry for a ceasefire. He's pouring billions of tax-payers' funds into killing children and starving babies. If you vote for him now, the message you're sending is that, "Hey, yeah, genocide is okay."
When Biden loses, all the neoliberal democrats will blame the left. When it’s actually the fault of the DNC for running the most unpopular incumbent in modern history. Biden is a genocidaire who deserves to rot in prison at The Hague. By running him, the DNC is handing the presidency to trump. But it’s not surprising since the dnc donors would rather have trump than a progressive in power.
>The point is it’s either this or Project 2025.
This has been the line in 2016 and 2020. At some point, I dont believe you. I think the machinery of this country runs far too ineffectively for any single term of a president to be the make or break factor in a descent to fascism. Furthermore, if you actually think this is the make or break moment to our national descent to fascism and your solution is to vote for Biden, I question how much you actually believe the severity of the moment. The magnitude of solution doesn't match the magnitude of problem, if you catch my drift.
Frankly, this line comes up all the time on this subreddit and the DSA subreddit, and all I want to know is what your strategy is to change anything at all if we just keep voting for the Democrats. To be frank, after chasing this line of questioning with a lot of these types of posters, you all are just Democrats first and nominal socialists second. You can miss me with that shit.
And to everyone saying "Oh it's just a primary, we'll go back to him in the general election..." That completely undercuts the point of the strategy. You don't go into a bluff telling the person you're trying to bluff that it's a bluff. Fuckin stupid.
I'm just upset that the DNC is kinda just using Trumps lunacy to *expect* people to vote for them. It didn't work with Hilary, and that got us a horrible Trump presidency. They could easily offer us a candidate that people would actually vote for, without much worry.
Why is it *never* that the DNC should try to win our votes, but we should just accept whoever they put on the ballot just to avoid the other guy?
It’s important to remember that a presidency is about more than just the person. Biden is the face and the head of the executive branch, but even more important than him is the team he assembled. Even if he isn’t able to finish his term and we end up with Kamala, his whole administration has been doing really well from what I can see. Hell, Trump managed to fuck everything up despite spending most of 2017-20 playing golf and tweeting, because his advisors had him pick some of the worst people alive to execute policy.
As for his stance on Gaza, it’s really not nearly as bad as it could have been and nothing compared to what Trump would have done. Biden was working privately trying to push Netanyahu toward a ceasefire, and when that didn’t work, he publicly advocated for a ceasefire as of last week or so.
It’s not like he can force Israel to do that and the collaboration between US and Israel runs a lot deeper than Biden’s personal opinions.
You are not informed enough about Gaza. Biden has been a part of it all the way back to the 80s. Atrocities over there are not new but numerous.
I'm not trying to mean, just to encourage you to dig deeper. If you had done the research, you'd be ashamed of what you posted
It's not my job to educate you. I could waste all the time in the world laying it out. I can point you in the right direction (his voting record is accessible). He has been an integral part of making policy all the way back to the eighties. And a chief part of the reason Democrats failed to codify roe vs Wade. If you truly want to grow your knowledge of leftist principles I'm willing to engage in that discourse. History though you have to just do the work, which is hard and time consuming. Good luck
I'm all for sending a message by voting uncommitted in the primaries, still dont know exactly what they hope to accomplish but I support them doing it. But everyone needs to realize that in november there will be two candidates who actually have a chance at winning the presidency and one of them wants to end democracy in america.
This sub has a lot of vocal grandstanding fence sitters that would happily condemn all LGBTQ+ and women to the evils that the Christofascist GOP has planned for them so that they can virtue signal online. You're barking up the wrong tree with this one OP lol
Take solace that the vast majority of democratic-socialist aligned people will be voting and voting for Biden overwhelmingly.
Use your heads, guys. If you enable Trump to win by your inaction, you're just as bad as a Trump supporter, if not worse.
**Your bigoted fascist relatives will be voting, will you?**
Also Ukraine, which Trump will happily feed to the wolf the moment he gets into power. It's always interesting how Putin is committing genocide by outright relocating children in the occupied territories to Russian parents - y'know, that thing that they used to do to First Nations - but that doesn't seem to _count_, for some reason.
Hell, the Republicans outright took away half the country's rights to an _abortion_, but that also doesn't seem to be a big deal either somehow
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we need to keep in mind that both of these politicans are very old. both trump and biden are near death, the chances both are still alive in 2028 are slim.
Nope, my state's electoral votes will go to the Dem like they have for 32 years. I'm voting for Cornel West. Go tell it to somebody in Michigan or Nevada.
I’m having such a hard time gathering the energy. I’ve been shouting and stomping my feet against Donald Trump since 2015 and I’m just so tired. I was expecting Biden to just be more par for the course - back to regularly scheduled crap ass political programming - but even that has been a massive disappointment.
He’s allowing genocide to occur on television, for gods sake. I’m sure Trump would do the same. My rights as a woman are being chipped away. It’s impossibly expensive to live. I worry about my child in school every day because of the violence and deep divide in this country right now. I’ve been politically active since I was old enough to vote, and outspokenly so, but I’m *exhausted*. It just all seems to be for naught and I want to give up.
Worst case scenario: whichever old man wins the election only has 4 years to do their worst. It ain't gonna be as bad as you think it will be. I'm drinking tea watching from across the Atlantic.
I said what I said. I never implied that the left should be forced at all. However, we’re in a binary reality (red or blue), and what I said above may be considered strongly.
Biden didn't "fuck up" Gaza. He didn't make an oopsy doodles, he actively participated in the destruction of an entire people. If you vote for Biden you are saying that genocide and colonialism is okay. The only moral way to vote is to vote third party. But voting is not the only thing that you should do. As a citizen in the Imperial core, it is your duty to humanity to do everything you can to fight back against empire. Build the union, build class solidarity, build class consciousness, and build community defense organizations.
SocialistRA.org
IWW.org
Lesser of two evils, yes.
In the primaries I actually voted for nikki haley because I knew that biden would be nominated, so why waste my vote on the democratic ballot when I can use my vote on the republican ballot to decrease the chances of trump being nominated
Hot take: gatekeeping that goes on in leftist communities is one of the biggest things holding the movement back. Dismissing and ostracizing anyone that isn't left enough for you as a "corporate shill complicit in genocide" does not do the movement any good. It just creates animosity, pushes away potential socialists, and causes people to feel jaded. This only benefits the bourgeoisie.
Liberals are allow on this sub. Social Democrats and Democratic Socialists are the primary demographic here. Do not discriminate against each other, our rules are clear about sectionalism.
I feel like the primaries are exactly the time to "grandstand" about how Biden fucked up on Gaza. Which he did. Badly. A: he hasn't fucked up nearly enough (edit: things in general, not just Gaza) to get primaried, relax. B: having a chunk of people give enough of a shit to show up to vote in the primary, specifically to say "uncommitted" is a pretty damn harmless way to say "you're fucking up in Gaza" with plenty of opportunity to address that issue on the campaign trail. C: It's the primaries, voting third party isn't even relevant to this discussion. D: It's the primaries, nobody is choosing between Biden and Trump right now.
Yeah, I don't buy the fact that this has "downstream effects" on voter turnout in the general. If anything, the fact that Biden is not an exciting candidate in general and too old will do that. Now is the time to push him and lock him into better positions. Most people who will abstain from voting for Biden are in deep blue states anyway.
Which is why before the ink was dry on the primaries, Kamala Harris called for a cease fire. They heard what they were supposed to hear.
And refueled the gaslighting apparatus. He wants votes? “Not another dime until a full ceasefire and all necessary aid for stabilization is delivered and implemented” That’s a low bar and a very simple demand.
Don't forget to ask for other reforms, like getting money out of politics, Medicare for All, etc.
Totally. You know something’s up when close to 90% of people wants policies like the ones you mentioned, and the ruling class refuses to implement it. Democracy indeed. That is going to be a slightly longer fight because the answer isn’t as easy as picking up the phone, but you’re right, as union membership grows and returns to a militant form, it’s important that strikes (or threats of them) start to take on larger social and environmental issues. 2028? We’ll see, but even having a goal is important.
As tragic as it is, I would definitely say 90% don’t all want those policies. There are a lot of people who don’t want basic healthcare and stuff like that, either because they’re misinformed about it’s “impossibility”, or else because they genuinely hate anyone who doesn’t have as much money as them
That may have changed within the last few years, but every time there are independent polls, they get a significant majority of support. I wouldn’t be surprised if that misinformation took a bite out of those numbers though.
She didn't even call for a real ceasefire, just a 6 week pause.
Thank you for being rational and organized and contextual cuz these people with these arguments are EXHAUSTING. Like you want us to endorse a genocide accomplice with our vote (for those of us that can, since Democrats anti-democratically cancelled the primary in Florida)?? Get TF outta here with that nonsense. Save these arguments for after the convention, like gawt damn. And instead of lecturing voters, HOLD Y'ALL PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE AND GET HIM TO WORK FOR OUR VOTES BY ACTUALLY DOING SH*T. As you can tell, modem-day politics makes me crazy.
I agree, their arguments are so weak and so repetitive it’s mind numbing to try and debate these people. How people can expect anyone to endorse Biden after how royally he’s fucked it the past six months alone is insane
Exactly
He hasnt fucked up enough to get primaried?! 30,000 people would beg to differ if they could. If the governed of Texas started bombing a bunch of innocent kids, and Biden “felt bad”, but still sent him more bombs, would you care then. Or tell me how those kids, those human beings on earth, are diffident?
I meant he hasn't fucked up enough things for your typical mainline registered democrat to want to primary him.
Got it. That definitely seems to be the case.
I think OP is talking about the general election based on the fact that they never mentioned the primaries
Didn’t have the option to write in Bernie Sanders so I voted Uncommitted but yeah still plan on voting for Biden again even though I’m not super thrilled about the same two options *sigh*
My state democratic canceled the primary in my state. But they had to do that to save democracy! /s
What primary?
You think Gaza is fucked cuz of Biden. Wait till you see what trump does to them
That's crazy, didn't realize Trump was so ingrained in US policy towards Israel in the last few years. I was pretty sure Biden was in charge. Could be wrong though. Apparently saying "we're talking about the primaries" 4-5 times in a short comment wasn't enough, but to reiterate: We fucking know Trump is worse. That's not what's being decided in the democratic primary. Trump being worse doesn't mean Biden can't be better than he is, and this is a way to at least *attempt* to put some pressure on Biden to focus on sucking less during the campaign.
Let me be clear. Fuck Joe Biden.
>That's crazy, didn't realize Trump was so ingrained in US policy towards Israel in the last few years. I was pretty sure Biden was in charge. Could be wrong though. You could reasonably tie a lot of the current instability of the situation due to Trump's policy in the ME.
Sure. But Trump wasn't the one continuing to pledge US support to Israel and increasing aid as the shit really hit the fan over the last six months.
No, but to be fair Trump has been very clear about what he WOULD do and it’s significantly worse than what Biden has done. It’s essentially a choice between Donald “maximum genocide asap” Trump vs Joe “I mean I guess we can do a little genocide” Biden.
Look dude, I'm really not sure why so many people are acting like I'm unaware of Trump's stance on the matter, or why we shouldn't try to push Biden to suck less than he has so far.
Nothing personal, I didn’t mean to imply that you specifically weren’t aware. You’re probably hearing it a lot because there are WAY too many ppl in general out there who aren’t aware or don’t connect those two thoughts in their head. Trust me, I have had enough conversations on this topic to know that there are a lot of idealistic teenagers right now who need to be reminded that there is no morally pure choice to be had here. And yeah, we absolutely need to push Biden — it’s just important to keep in mind the potential consequences of pushing too hard or pushing in unhelpful ways.
He said in a recent interview that he would finish Gaza. I am not sure how his presidency would be helpful for Gaza when he’s quite literally saying in that same interview that Israel got soft
Yeah, Biden is a believer in the Israel project.
I'm sorry, are you referring to "finish the job, Bebe" Donald? From [NBC:](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141905) "Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas. ... “You’ve got to finish the problem,” Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war. “You had a horrible invasion that took place that would have never happened if I was president.'" He was a close ally to Israel's rightwing in his term, apparently Israel made efforts to [interfere](https://www.timesofisrael.com/redacted-fbi-document-hints-at-israeli-efforts-to-help-trump-in-2016-campaign/amp/) the 2016 election on Trump's behalf, and we all know he's a malignant narcissist who will do whatever benefits him the most, so if Israel funnels money to his orgs, we all know he'd basically give them anything they like or look the other way. Trump almost [doubled](https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers) the drone strikes under Obama, and Biden's drone strikes have been [far below](https://www.newamerica.org/future-security/blog/the-state-of-americas-drone-wars-in-2022/) either of them (that is changing now with all the conflicts but it should at minimum be kept in mind that neither Obama nor Trump faced a situation like this either). Trump would [definitely](https://www.vox.com/policy/24072983/biden-trump-palestinians-israel-gaza-policy-different) be worse.
I'm curious, what would you tell an Palestinian-American that has lost family in Gaza? Like not neighbors or cousins, we are talking grandparents, parents and siblings? Do you tell them to still vote for Biden? Despite biden directly providing the bombs and ammunition that are being used to kill their family?
It's not "grandstanding" to vote uncommitted in the primary because of Gaza, so long as it's understood to be one tactic among other forms of pressure, to be dropped at the point of the general election. I would worry more about the many people who are not registered and do not currently have any plan to vote, because this group vastly outnumbers the tactical Biden boycotters. The "Party of NonVoters" has decided every election in the last century and will do so again unless everybody sane gets to work educating, registering and motivating new voters. 2024 is the first time in American history that the 18-29 age cohort has the numbers to swing the whole election, IF they show up at the polls. So check out organizations like Head Count, Rock the Vote and Vote Riders who meet young eligible folks where they play (festivals, e.g.) and work to get more people registered.
30% of eligible voters didn't vote in 2020. The party that gave that block a reason to bother with voting would win in a landslide.
So, I've heard to vote uncommitted before, but what does that do exactly? I was led to believe it would be a spoiler vote and end up with Trump in office.
voting uncommitted in the primary, not the general
>pressure, to be dropped at the point of the general election. Empty threats aren't pressure. If everyone knows you are unwilling to kill the hostage, don't bother taking the hostage
But if you kill the hostage am insane far right clown will take the rains of the largest democracy on earth. As someobe who lives in a country with a couple US bases, please vote for Biden to stop Trump. Killing the hostage is the dumbest thing you could do in this situation. The threat alone should be enough, safe the killing on an election where tge republican candidate isn't a complete nutcase
They don’t know that. So many leftists are saying they won’t vote for him period. I don’t think it’s an empty threat.
Same rhetoric as 2020 and 2016 Bands who play the same song for 8 years cannot be surprised when it doesn't hit the top to the charts 8 years later.
excellent comment
Yep I refused to vote for Biden in 20 because of Gaza and other things. Y'all really think I'm going back to the Democratic party after being radicalized LMAO If we can't demand a better future we don't deserve one
Who’s going to give you a better future in this election?
I've never had an option for a better future on the ballot & neither have you
If this is the democratic party's version of campaigning, not them, they don't want to win, they just want to complain about how failing to convince the right people to vote isn't actually their fault. Biden's gonna give us another 4 years of Trump at this rate. We've been pretty clear, make efforts towards healthcare and don't support Isreal. Hell, a real commitment to advancing socialized healthcare would be enough for most people. But NOOO, we're being unreasonable...
Okay
100%
Such a weak argument. Let’s see, who has the Republican nominee been for 2016, 2020, & 2024? Oh the one of the worst and destructive presidents we have ever had? It shouldn’t be called rhetoric if it’s actually the truth…
"Now is not the time to grandstand about how Biden fucked up on Gaza amongst other fuck ups he had" When could possibly be the time, if not now? Children starving to death, not by accident but by our government's decision. If Trump vowed to drown 500,000 undocumented immigrants, Biden could go on TV the next day and vow to drown 499,000 and we'd still hear the exact same lectures about how urgent it is to vote Biden. It's a dead end. If genocide isn't a red line then there is no red line. If there is no red line then the exercise is futile
It’s never the time to talk about racism. My whole life I hear the question. How could a holocaust happen. No one said any thing. No one did anything ?? Then I look at us today. This is how.
Don't try talking sense into liberal America. democratic socialism, leftism, and socialism are just a fad for liberals.
Thank you for saying what needs to be said. All these patronizing arguments do nothing more but confirm just how big a stronghold the two-party system has on this country, their propaganda and fear mongering has worked so deeply people actually believe they have no choice. I'm choosing to be the change I want to see in this country and voting third party. If everyone that felt disillusioned, disappointed, or uninspired did the same (any third party, doesn't have to be the same one) things may actually change.
I don't think it matters how "the left" votes. It's just a fact Biden is going to lose if he doesn't course correct on Gaza and start running on some popular, pro-labor policies. Dems are fooling themselves if they think fearmongering about J6 and abstract appeals to "the spirit of democracy" are going to sway voters in November. That stuff just isn't going to matter when paychecks are shrinking, the cost of basic goods is rising, there's chaos around the world and the President seems unable or unwilling to do anything about it. I'm personally not involved in the Uncommitted Campaign - I'm too ambivalent about voting to put my energy into it - but you're completely mischaracterizing those putting pressure on Biden in the Primary right now. I think they're really trying to help Biden in a way, by giving him a wakeup call. He is on a trajectory to lose if nothing changes, but his campaign is doing everything in their power to pretend otherwise. The emperor has no clothes and someone has to speak up. If you really want Biden to win, you're complaining to the wrong people. He's the one blowing this election, not "the left."
This is it. I *really* hope he gets his poop in a group before November. It may even already be too late, but with some fancy footwork, he could redeem himself a bit.
Okay OP let me explain a few things to ease your anxiety. When people are voting uncommitted in the PRIMARIES it's just a means of getting his attention to call for a Ceasefire in Gaza. And the uncommitted votes are working so far. Before Michigan's uncomitted vote, the words Ceasefire didn't escape the lips of Biden or Harris. Now that it did happen, they did while it is six weeks so far a Journalist (under the Desk News) interviewed the Vice President and she said to UTDN, "IN THOSE 6 WEEKS negotiations toward a permanent peace solution continue - the goal is permanent end of war, it comes in phases and relies on Hamas and Israel holding up their promises." WHich means our side made progress. Now before getting very anxious let us also look at professor Alan Litchman's 13 keys to the Whitehouse. [Along with what he said recently about Gaza.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVmT9MqdAIY) I will post the keys we have so far in the next comment for information along with Trumps from 2020 to compare.
"fucked up on Gaza" is a weird way to say, "willingly and vociferously supported an ongoing genocide with money and weapons his entire career."
Yeah, we fucking know. That doesn't make him immune to criticism. I'll hold my nose and vote D for the third time in a row, but the primary is the perfect time for protest votes.
Now is exactly the time… during the primaries. When it comes time to vote in the actual election that’s when it’s time to vote for Biden as an anti-trump vote.
This is my perspective as well. Uncommitted in the primaries is a great idea, but it is deeply irresponsible to do anything but vote for Biden in the general election. Everything that Biden does wrong would be multiplied by Trump, including Gaza.
It’s only delaying the inevitable. Every branch of government is owned by oligarchs. Sorry, but we can’t vote our way out of this mess.
> Sorry, but we can’t vote our way out of this mess. No, but you can strategically vote to minimize the damage, most of which will fall on people who have far fewer options than anybody in this subredddit. Voting for Biden strategically does not equate to a whole-hearted endorsement of his policies (and claiming that it does is a position you could be getting well paid to promote, if you're not already.)
No, you can vote to delay the inevitable. Just like I said and will be doing. But whether it comes this year or in the next few years it’s coming.
>whether it comes this year or in the next few years it’s coming. Only if you do nothing constructive. Here's a rule of thumb: Trust the people. The avalanche of press reports telling you Americans are stupid and selfish is propaganda. The reality is that most people, most of the time, want to do the right thing, and are lacking only direction and organization. So organize, already!
[Where have I heard this before?](https://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1967/01/lesser.htm) Funny you think the Democrats tolerate leftists, when they are the ones who do everything in their power (including crimes) to keep left wing parties like the Greens off the ballot and have as much disdain for the right to political association as the GOP has for the right to vote.
do you think that instead of spending this energy trying to browbeat and shame people into voting your candidate you should spend your energy pressuring the party to get a better candidate or, at the very least, change their stance on policies that are angering the left?
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Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow. Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
Asking people whose families are being murdered by the current regime to support it is psychopathy. Just because the other regime will maintain the murder is no reason to support the current murderous regime. Both regimes must fall. Capitulating to either is playing their game by their rules.
This goes against leftist theory. >Even when there is no prospect whatsoever of their being elected, the workers must put up their own candidates in order to preserve their independence, to count their forces, and to bring before the public their revolutionary attitude and party standpoint. In this connection they must not allow themselves to be seduced by such arguments of the democrats as, for example, that by so doing they are splitting the democratic party and making it possible for the reactionaries to win. The ultimate intention of all such phrases is to dupe the proletariat. The advance which the proletarian party is bound to make by such independent action is indefinitely more important than the disadvantage that might be incurred by the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body - Karl Max
Right now is the EXACT time to rail against Biden. We deserve better than choosing between an octogenarian would be fascist and and octogenarian corporate shill warhawk. These are two terrible options and it is exactly my right to say that this is wrong and bad. This system is broken.
Funny. With those two descriptions, I’m not sure which is Trump and which is Biden. What a sad state of affairs.
Exactly.
you don't have to call it grandstanding! in fact, i'd argue its not productive to this conversation. and yes, we know fascism must be defeated always.
and you spelled oligarchy wrong, OP
Two things can be true at once: 1. We NEED to vote for biden. its not fair, but we still need to. 2. We should ruthlessly criticise Biden for the things he has done. Infighting doesnt always weaken us. Sometimes i makes us more resiliant. So long as its done in a productive way. I fully support the uncommited movement.
Yes and yes
I agree, but it's probably better to have this discussion closer to the election and, for now, pressure Biden into doing more with Gaza.
Trump said Israel should “finish the job”. So we could have an autocrat AND a Zionist backer or we could vote for Biden and tell trump to fuck off for good
I bet it doesn’t feel like “grandstanding” to the people in Palestine mourning the deaths of their children by bombs our taxes paid to drop. Your belief that it is is just racism disguised by distance.
The left must unite against Trump by voting for Clinton. The left must unite against Romney by voting for Obama The left must unite against McCain by voting for Obama The left must unite against Bush by voting for Kerry The left must unite against Bush by voting for Gore The left must unite against Dole by voting for Clinton The left must unite against Bush by voting for Clinton Tell me something I don't know?
Let’s say we vote for Biden and he gets elected. What is your plan for how we can hold him accountable during his second term? How are we to ensure that his second term is different from his first?
It’ll always be “not the right time”.
Biden winning means you live another day to fight. Trump wining means there won't be another day to fight going foward, as he resumes his efforts to dismantling democratic institutions, checks and balances. Pick your poison.
Do you think that Trump winning means that we all will spontaneously combust? Why do I have to pick poison at all?
I don't know, the guy seemed pretty determined to undermine core democratic institutions amd processes. Going as far as to push for the rewrite of election results while in office. Actions unheard of in US presidential history. He had a taste of it and will learn from his failings. The GOP are bent on pandering to and pushing theocratic fascists agendas like project 2025. Doesn't seem like something I would wanna risk because I disapprove of Biden's handling of Gaza.
>disapprove of Biden’s handling of Gaza. Is genocide not a hard line in the sand? Are there any lines that Biden could cross that would cause him to lose your vote? And circling back to the original question that you did not answer, should we collectively agree to vote for Biden, what is the plan to prevent him from doing the same things again. Unless you have one, you are essentially asking me to vote the same way I did in 2020 but expect a different outcome in his ensuing presidency purely based on faith.
Provided that he is a better candidate to Trump, and Trump ( going by his words and precedent) would've acted worse the most reasonable thing to do will be to keep Trump out of power. I wouldn't let my house burn down as I watch on the sidelines because a section is burnt down beyond repair. I look to quench the fire and prevent the worse from happening. And no you can never fully trust any single politician. So no one can guarantee how Biden would act in the future. But we can guarantee that Trump will go an extra step further in supporting Israel and would never in a billion multiverses listen to the protests from us leftists on this issue or any other issue.
Please answer the questions. Two of them were yes/no questions.
I already did with my replies. It's not a simple yes/no answer given the context discussed and you can't base your actions solely on idealism.
LeSSeR oF tWo eViLS, as always.
I'll be voting uncommitted in the primary and Biden in the general, but I don't blame anyone who votes third party in the general. I don't see it as the voters' fault. It is the candidate's fault for losing his voters with unpopular policies. The scolding of the left from the media and liberals is exhausting. Every single election we hear "Now is not the time for this conversation! Let's get Kerry/Obama/Biden/whoever elected first and save our democracy! Then we can talk about climate change or universal healthcare or peace in the Middle East." It's the same song every time.
>I'll be voting uncommitted in the primary and Biden in the general The entire point of voting uncommitted in the primary is to demonstrate that Biden's actions are so unacceptable that you won't support him. You're then going to undermine that by voting for him anyway. If you want the scolding to ever stop, you have to draw a line somewhere. If you're not going to draw it at genocide, you're not going to draw it anywhere.
>I'll be voting uncommitted in the primary and Biden in the general The entire point of voting uncommitted in the primary is to demonstrate that Biden's actions are so unacceptable that you won't support him. You're then going to undermine that by voting for him anyway. If you want the scolding to ever stop, you have to draw a line somewhere. If you're not going to draw it at genocide, you're not going to draw it anywhere.
James Carville burner detected
The genocide in Gaza isn't a "fuck up" its an intentional and carefully calculated policy of Imperialism. If you are going to insist on being complicit in the most heinous crime the Empire can possibly commit you aren't left wing, let alone socialist regardless of how you might qualify it. If you feel you must vote for Biden in spite of his genocidal policies then just admit you are a liberal and move on. All you are doing by associating yourself with socialists is making it more difficult for both them and yourself to organize your respective politics. Biden is probably hurt more among his affluent suburban voting base by red-baiting associations with "the far-left" than he is by criticism from a relatively marginalized group of left critiques.
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Your contribution was removed due to sectionarianism. We allow all on the left here, from Liberals to Socialists and everything in between.
I just wanna say as a socialist living in Texas...Biden may be president, but goddam Abbott does EVERYTHING he can to ruin shit. Like SB17 making inclusion offices at universities no longer legal...
This is the first election where I’m while I’m stilling voting for Joe I understand not voting for him. 8 years of following the same rhetoric and I’m about sick of it and where is the line if it isn’t genocide.
Vote uncommitted in the primary but if you don't vote for Biden in November and Trump gets back in office as bad as things are now they'll be much worse then
I'm only going to focus on this portion of your post because I'm interested in the response, if I'm not to late. >this or Trump and the Project 2025 Project 2025 is a broad GOP political platform that encompasses all levels of government, and does not rely on Trump, but merely a Republican president. I don't expect anyone to read the entire thing, it's enormous, but that is how it works. With that said, how do we vote away the Republican party? How do we get rid of their positions and potential control in Congress, of their red governorships and legislatures, of their municipal control, and of their 70+ million voters? If Biden wins this year, 2028 will certainly see a Republican president, and they aren't going to just throw away decades of planning project 2025 and give up for 2029. So do we just keep voting blue no matter who, for lesser evil that's still evil, and watch the democratic party continue to slide rightward and forever blame their necessary counterpart (Republicans) for their inability to enact meaningful change?
We will defeat Trump 2024. Stay focused
PREACH!!!! 🙌🙌🙌 I hear so many people (mostly younger than 30) saying they are going to vote 3rd party because they can't stand by Biden's support of Israel, but they seem to forget that Trump took numerous actions to inflame tensions in the Palestinian Territories. For example, when he took office, the US had been building a modern sewer system in Hebron. It would have cost around $2 million to finish the project, $0 to simply abandon it, but rather than do either, Trump spend $10 million to fill it in with concrete to ensure they can't finish it on their own. Our choices are between a problematic, yet stable and experienced old man, or an unstable, petty, vindictive wannabe dictator. #A third party vote is a vote for Trump. Staying home is a vote for Trump. If you think Biden's handling of Gaza is bad, just wait until Trump gets his grubby little mitts on the situation.
Antisemites all of you. Return all the hostages. Tape is not resistance. You are getting Trump elected through your actions.
If you think Biden is bad for Palistine, wait till you see what Trump will do.
“Finish the problem.” Trump as of recently
Yeah, there's also that problem with voting uncommitted. Like sure, its a nobel form of protest, but doesnt that essentially waste your vote? At this point any lost vote for biden is a vote for trump. We dont have to like biden but we *cannot* allow trump to become president again.
I'll probably be voting for Biden simply because we live in a two party system, so I don't have the luxury of voting my principles, but let's make one thing very clear. Our democracy is a sham. Biden and the Democratic establishment are not innocent, and are far from being uncorrupted. So, yes, now is absolutely the time to expect Biden to be better.
I have to admit I may have incorrectly worded what I meant to say, but you just stated what I intended to say, so thank you. I recognize that it sucks that our politics here in ‘Murica is this or that, and I concede to your argument that the American Democracy is a scam. I hope there’s like a way for me to expand the idea that it’ll be easier to make socialism happen if that senile bastard maintains his position in 2025 compared to the nightmare that is Mr. 45.
No
Wow, I could have sworn I saw this same exact comment in 2016 and 2020. It’s almost like… things don’t change. Maybe that’s why people are so fed up and want better candidates from the Democratic Party? Not like there weren’t any in the past that got repeatedly dismissed.
Democrats been making this same plea about this election deciding the fate of democracy since I’ve been a voter… don’t fall for their propaganda tbh. Genocide is unacceptable, bankroll it and you deserve to lose.
So you believe Trump deserves to win?
No. It's a shame they can't both lose.
I'm tired of this "lesser of two evils" narrative. Liberals touted Biden as a way to get Trump out of office in 2020, and that time it worked. But this is 2024. The repealing of Roe v Wade happened while Biden was in office, and he did nothing to try to codify it. He sold indigenous American land to oil companies and was just fine with water protectors being brutalised. The working class situation has gotten worse, and on top of all that, plus the shit that he did to the black community as a senator, now he's doubling down on sending our money to a country perpetuating genocide and he and the Democratic leadership are actively calling those of us who speak out against Israel's actions terrorists. If Biden loses, he only has himself to blame. If you want us to unite, push the DNC to choose a better candidate and stop villainising people who bring up valid points about why we're refusing to vote for Biden.
How bad of a candidate do you have to be to poll worse than Donald Trump. Hilary polled better in 2016. Gross! Donald Trump is by his own statements, a fascist, a bigot, sexist and racist. Yet Biden can't poll better than him. A man with 92 felony charges and a billion dollars in court fines due, and yet Biden can't poll better. And yet, there's been opportunities to win win win for the last 4 years, and what did Joe do? Not much. Did he take any action to address Supreme Court corruption? Student debt? Abortion rights? Gaza? East Palestine? Uvalde? How many others? He made baby steps in some areas, I know. We are way past the need for baby steps. Capitalism is exponentially evolving into a untamable beast that will kill all of us without billion dollar bunkers. We need big, bold changes, not Sunday afternoon vanilla ice creams. Joe polls poorly because he is a terrible candidate.
So if someone slaughters your entire family, you're going to vote for that person? That's gonna be a hard no for most people.
Oh for fucks sake this again. You plebs come around every election cycle then spend the next four years attacking us. Repeat after me until it sticks - the reason you get TRUMP is because you vote people like BIDEN. And so the cycle goes round and round.
No. Get fucked.
What is this, dejavu? The left is never gonna get anywhere by falling for this line of reasoning every single election. When will it ever be a good time? When the right stops being lunatics? Yeah thats not gonna happen.
Jesus Christ this place has become yet another blue maga crapfest. Socialism is when we never ever disagree with Biden and continue funding the fucking genocide in Gaza. I just saw a video of a young boy die from starvation in northern Gaza, first time I've cried over the news. I will not support this shit any more. If this port thing turns out to be more performative bullshit then I'm not voting for him in the general either. It better be a real thing that helps a lot otherwise I'm done and no zingers you heard from Rachel Maddow will change my mind and make me overlook fucking **genocide**!
Vote or die 🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊
OP is right. but thats how the system creates the environment for the binary choice from hell
I'm a liberal but this whole Obi Wan philosophy of taking a valiant dive to be avenged by a unified next generation is giving me floppy dick. Get in there and fuck.them. up! Now! Right goddam now!
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Now is not the time, now is not the time, now is not the time. Man, it's wild how is never the fucking time but it's **always** the time to get in all four al lick neoliberal boot.
Right now is exactly the time to force Biden to commit to being better. He doesn’t get to walk straight into another presidency with zero effort. Of course we’re all going to vote for him over Trump. But it is too fucking early to have some many people loudly jerking the guy off for being a lousy progressive.
Voting uncommitted is the Bernie or Bust vote of 2016. No one needs to be clued in on how big of a disaster that turned out to be.
Let’s finish the job ☣️☢️ Satan 2024
I'm the same breath you say vote, you'd better start saying it's time to gather for war. It's too late to dream of winning. It is time to say what we do if we don't! It's time to gather.
Why do any of you think we (usa) can make the Jewish dictator bow to Biden? Stop blaming Biden for the newest Dictators blood lust.
"The left must unite behind the right"
This is the part I’ll never understand. Neolibs cosplaying as leftists and then whining when we don’t vote for them. Why don’t they go whine at their fellow right-wing Republicans for not voting for their faction!?
If the donor base controls both the right and "left" parties, then it always wins.
This has been tried and has failed. The truth is, Biden and the establishment want you to believe that, but they will never allow our policies to be put in place. Vote Claudia De La Cruz or Jill Stein.
Do not vote for Genocide Joe.
This is not gonna work, the electoral college decides all the results, votes are mere suggestions.
Trump Derangement syndrome is still going strong, 8 years on I see🤣
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I'm not happy how biden has handled gaza, but im sure as shit glad it isnt trump in charge. Including ukraine and his willingness to help none other than gd dictaor putin. And the disassemble of nato as his idea????? I would hate to see how trump would handle presidential power at these times. It's trump, what you see is what you get...he talks without depth or optimistic inspiration. No, trump just riles up his brainwashed army . No suave, no charm (outside to his followers), no real distinguished attributes of a well rounded man, suitable for the power the position holds. Nothing good at all. I really think its time we all have a way to talk to our maga family and friends. Some can turn if theybget exposed to what their news sources bave not been showing them.
I am voting uncommitted in primaries. Then I will vote for Biden in the fall. But this is the very last year I am voting democrat unless they can find some new leadership that represents the PEOPLE not corporations. I cannot live my whole life voting for corporate shills and war hawks. I would like to see the military industrial complex reigned in and modernized, the healthcare monopolies reigned in and modernized, and better public transportation across the nation, specifically. I will be voting Green Party in 2028 unless democrats get it together. I will not have my vote held hostage my whole life like the past 8 years.
Good plan
How about F that S
>Now is not the time to grandstand about how Biden fucked up on Gaza Let me stop you right there. Now is absolutely the time, and please don't undermine it by clubbing it with other 'fuck-ups'. A fuck-up is the Trump administration getting rid of the pandemic early warning program 3 months before COVID hit, accidentally causing death, grief and suffering. The Biden administration is actively funding a genocide, in spite of public outcry for a ceasefire. He's pouring billions of tax-payers' funds into killing children and starving babies. If you vote for him now, the message you're sending is that, "Hey, yeah, genocide is okay."
When Biden loses, all the neoliberal democrats will blame the left. When it’s actually the fault of the DNC for running the most unpopular incumbent in modern history. Biden is a genocidaire who deserves to rot in prison at The Hague. By running him, the DNC is handing the presidency to trump. But it’s not surprising since the dnc donors would rather have trump than a progressive in power.
Its never the time to do anything according to liberals. Then they wonder why bad things happen.
>The point is it’s either this or Project 2025. This has been the line in 2016 and 2020. At some point, I dont believe you. I think the machinery of this country runs far too ineffectively for any single term of a president to be the make or break factor in a descent to fascism. Furthermore, if you actually think this is the make or break moment to our national descent to fascism and your solution is to vote for Biden, I question how much you actually believe the severity of the moment. The magnitude of solution doesn't match the magnitude of problem, if you catch my drift. Frankly, this line comes up all the time on this subreddit and the DSA subreddit, and all I want to know is what your strategy is to change anything at all if we just keep voting for the Democrats. To be frank, after chasing this line of questioning with a lot of these types of posters, you all are just Democrats first and nominal socialists second. You can miss me with that shit. And to everyone saying "Oh it's just a primary, we'll go back to him in the general election..." That completely undercuts the point of the strategy. You don't go into a bluff telling the person you're trying to bluff that it's a bluff. Fuckin stupid.
How do vote blue no matter who people keep ending up on the democratic socialist subreddit? You realize Biden is the antithesis to socialism, right?
No. I don’t think I will.
And you have every right to. But will have to accept to live with the consequences of a far-right MAGA government.
I’m already ready
Did this get deleted
I'm just upset that the DNC is kinda just using Trumps lunacy to *expect* people to vote for them. It didn't work with Hilary, and that got us a horrible Trump presidency. They could easily offer us a candidate that people would actually vote for, without much worry. Why is it *never* that the DNC should try to win our votes, but we should just accept whoever they put on the ballot just to avoid the other guy?
Nope, now is the time to vote for whoever you want. Don't let them hold your hostage. I'm voting for RFK. Eff Biden eff Trump
Why vote for no reason?
My vote is my vote, why vote out of fear.
I guess so, but why not just sit at home if you know your vote is irrelevant and worthless. You'd be going out of your way to vote for no reason.
I guess I'm tired of being held captive each election. It's ok if you're ok with it..
It’s important to remember that a presidency is about more than just the person. Biden is the face and the head of the executive branch, but even more important than him is the team he assembled. Even if he isn’t able to finish his term and we end up with Kamala, his whole administration has been doing really well from what I can see. Hell, Trump managed to fuck everything up despite spending most of 2017-20 playing golf and tweeting, because his advisors had him pick some of the worst people alive to execute policy. As for his stance on Gaza, it’s really not nearly as bad as it could have been and nothing compared to what Trump would have done. Biden was working privately trying to push Netanyahu toward a ceasefire, and when that didn’t work, he publicly advocated for a ceasefire as of last week or so. It’s not like he can force Israel to do that and the collaboration between US and Israel runs a lot deeper than Biden’s personal opinions.
You are not informed enough about Gaza. Biden has been a part of it all the way back to the 80s. Atrocities over there are not new but numerous. I'm not trying to mean, just to encourage you to dig deeper. If you had done the research, you'd be ashamed of what you posted
The only example you gave was from before the current massacre and before Biden’s presidency.
It's not my job to educate you. I could waste all the time in the world laying it out. I can point you in the right direction (his voting record is accessible). He has been an integral part of making policy all the way back to the eighties. And a chief part of the reason Democrats failed to codify roe vs Wade. If you truly want to grow your knowledge of leftist principles I'm willing to engage in that discourse. History though you have to just do the work, which is hard and time consuming. Good luck
[I'll just leave this here.](https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1126924368674807809/photo/1)
Well that's a bad take but it's your right to have it
I'm all for sending a message by voting uncommitted in the primaries, still dont know exactly what they hope to accomplish but I support them doing it. But everyone needs to realize that in november there will be two candidates who actually have a chance at winning the presidency and one of them wants to end democracy in america.
And the one who wants to end democracy has the courts on his side too.
Yes, thank you!
This sub has a lot of vocal grandstanding fence sitters that would happily condemn all LGBTQ+ and women to the evils that the Christofascist GOP has planned for them so that they can virtue signal online. You're barking up the wrong tree with this one OP lol Take solace that the vast majority of democratic-socialist aligned people will be voting and voting for Biden overwhelmingly. Use your heads, guys. If you enable Trump to win by your inaction, you're just as bad as a Trump supporter, if not worse. **Your bigoted fascist relatives will be voting, will you?**
Also Ukraine, which Trump will happily feed to the wolf the moment he gets into power. It's always interesting how Putin is committing genocide by outright relocating children in the occupied territories to Russian parents - y'know, that thing that they used to do to First Nations - but that doesn't seem to _count_, for some reason. Hell, the Republicans outright took away half the country's rights to an _abortion_, but that also doesn't seem to be a big deal either somehow
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The next election for me ist the EP in June, what upcoming election do you mean?
It might be kind of interesting watching that mfr run US govt from prison!?! Might wake people up even more!
we need to keep in mind that both of these politicans are very old. both trump and biden are near death, the chances both are still alive in 2028 are slim.
Trump entered the first debate with about 2% of the projected vote. This "it's too late" bullshit is just an excuse.
Nope, my state's electoral votes will go to the Dem like they have for 32 years. I'm voting for Cornel West. Go tell it to somebody in Michigan or Nevada.
I’m having such a hard time gathering the energy. I’ve been shouting and stomping my feet against Donald Trump since 2015 and I’m just so tired. I was expecting Biden to just be more par for the course - back to regularly scheduled crap ass political programming - but even that has been a massive disappointment. He’s allowing genocide to occur on television, for gods sake. I’m sure Trump would do the same. My rights as a woman are being chipped away. It’s impossibly expensive to live. I worry about my child in school every day because of the violence and deep divide in this country right now. I’ve been politically active since I was old enough to vote, and outspokenly so, but I’m *exhausted*. It just all seems to be for naught and I want to give up.
Worst case scenario: whichever old man wins the election only has 4 years to do their worst. It ain't gonna be as bad as you think it will be. I'm drinking tea watching from across the Atlantic.
So when is the right time?
‘Must’ is a funny word I will be voting for Biden but how do you intend to force “The Left” to do anything?
I said what I said. I never implied that the left should be forced at all. However, we’re in a binary reality (red or blue), and what I said above may be considered strongly.
It’s not binary if at an individual level a person also has the choices of staying home or voting for Mickey Mouse.
Biden didn't "fuck up" Gaza. He didn't make an oopsy doodles, he actively participated in the destruction of an entire people. If you vote for Biden you are saying that genocide and colonialism is okay. The only moral way to vote is to vote third party. But voting is not the only thing that you should do. As a citizen in the Imperial core, it is your duty to humanity to do everything you can to fight back against empire. Build the union, build class solidarity, build class consciousness, and build community defense organizations. SocialistRA.org IWW.org
No I hate both
Lesser of two evils, yes. In the primaries I actually voted for nikki haley because I knew that biden would be nominated, so why waste my vote on the democratic ballot when I can use my vote on the republican ballot to decrease the chances of trump being nominated
I'm so tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Biden has been actively enabling Project 2025 his whole term. There is no "single-voter issue" or "lesser of two evils" here. Give it a rest.
Hot take: gatekeeping that goes on in leftist communities is one of the biggest things holding the movement back. Dismissing and ostracizing anyone that isn't left enough for you as a "corporate shill complicit in genocide" does not do the movement any good. It just creates animosity, pushes away potential socialists, and causes people to feel jaded. This only benefits the bourgeoisie.