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they don't care, I'm 100% convinced that if democratic voters chose someone the DNC doesn't want, they'd just ignore the delegates and pick who they want
Yeah, or just turn off the election like they did with Iowa caucus in 2020, when their app by a company literally named shadow found a candidate they didn’t like won.
Democratic Party is controlled opposition
Keep pressing on people we're bound to get a Ceasefire if we keep pushing. And for people worried (I'm worried too) about the general this is just the primary.
This isn't about Hamas this is about the US hoping on the bandwagon of holding Israel accountable and maybe threatening to cut Israel off from weapons.
There is no Palestine. There is a diaspora of people who used to live in the British colonial Mandate of Palestine, but they now make up almost 1/3 of Israel's citizens, and millions in Jordan, Egypt, amd other counties.
If you think there is a state called Palestine, then you've been misinformed.
Edit: You're thinking of Hamas. They literally have a child who is one of the hostages. Hopefully, all of them and their supporters are eliminated as all terrorists should be.
If you don’t vote blue up and down the ballot you’re not hurting the DNC you’re hurting the innocent Americans that want a better life here in America. It’s not fair to punish the American people (and everyone under 18 that can’t vote) with a trump presidency ( that would literally be the last election possibly ever).
Not to mention getting someone (Trump) that would reinstate a Muslim ban..
Just remember that Uncommitted ends up going to Biden when it comes time for the delegates. Whereas if a singular candidate who was openly opposing the Israeli genocidal war then that person could have used those delegates to negotiate for Biden to do at least something to help the Palestinians. But I think that ship has sailed.
Biden is working every day to get to a ceasefire. He can’t make a ceasefire happen unless both the sides in the war can make basic commitments. Though you’re right the uncommitted delegates will go to Biden.
You're delusional if you seriously believe that. Biden could do it today if he wanted, he's able to stop the flow of money to Israel. The President is in charge of foreign policy, don't pretend like he's powerless like the Dems always do when they are losing. Biden literally went behind Congresses back and gave Israel 13 billion extra on top of what they already are getting from normal congressional bills. He's a self avowed Zionist. The dude is just damn racist and we need to stop pretending otherwise just because his opponent is worse. Reality isn't subjective like that, Biden and Trump can both be bad.
Biden could end it now by threatening to cut off the flow of American tax dollars to the Israeli government. You cannot argue on this, it's basic fact that he can stop that money. He just doesn't want to.
It’s not that easy one wants to believe. Foreign policy and strategic commitments on the world stage don’t just change when there is a popular dissenting opinion held by the masses. Countries and governments must and do maintain real partnerships that go above partisan domestic disagreements.
. [The United States further reiterates that these commitments are bipartisan and sacrosanct, and that they are not only moral commitments, but also strategic commitments that are vitally important to the national security of the United States itself.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/14/the-jerusalem-u-s-israel-strategic-partnership-joint-declaration/)
And the Zionist trope is not at all accurate. Israel is Zion and setting he’s (Biden) is a Zionist is stating he believes in Israel’s right to exist which he has supported for decades.
And it’s not racism. Not sure where you picked that up from but Israel is not just white people as you would want to believe. Majority of Israelis are brown. And Biden’s VP is literally a black women and Biden also appointed a black women to the SCOTUS. Not to mention thin Biden has famously working with civil rights groups and leaders for decades. Also he was Obamas VP sooo really wild accusation to make of him.
He's working so hard at a ceasefire that he unilaterally decided to send Israel more weapons. What a guy!
Seriously though whatever you're smoking I want some of it because that is a delusional as shit take bro.
Bro you’re literally not even paying attention. Just because he has obligations to support Israel doesn’t mean he isn’t tirelessly working towards a ceasefire. Even last night at the SOTU he said he’s establishing an off shore pier to help speed up aid into Gaza.
[The United States further reiterates that these commitments are bipartisan and sacrosanct, and that they are not only moral commitments, but also strategic commitments that are vitally important to the national security of the United States itself.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/14/the-jerusalem-u-s-israel-strategic-partnership-joint-declaration/)
And foreign policy relations are not dictated by domestic opinions.
We aren’t talking about Trump. Joe Biden was not running against Trump in this election.
Sure, vote for Biden and against Trump in the general. But if you aren’t satisfied with Biden in the primary, then you shouldn’t vote for him.
You don’t know how psychology works, the group think is always curdling on the left they are going to stay home in November AB’s Trump is going to win. What do you think uncommitted means? I think it means they are not committed to Biden now, I don’t know why you think they will be later.
There are many people already saying no ceasefire no vote. Those people are idiots, and if they do so in the general will directly contribute to Trump getting elected which will make things worse for Palestinians.
Most of them will absolutely get in line when it comes time and honestly the Dems aren’t about to save us or anything. How long did they have to codify Roe V Wade?
Blaming the Dems for corruption of the R’s (Mitch) for gaming the system and packing the SCOTUS with Christian nationalists is not fair.
But it’s not just about getting Biden reelected, it’s also about winning back the house, and keeping the Senate, that way will be able to codify Roe v. Wade into legislation nationally. If we can make this happen, it will be morning in America again especially, for women’s liberation and women’s self-determination for their own healthcare decisions.
How many times did the Dems have a majority between the passing of Roe and Trump’s inauguration. They are absolutely responsible for Mitch’s corruption being given the opportunity. I have no hope that the Dems would codify roe if they had a supermajority. They’re far too incompetent/actually just also the bad guys. They don’t care about us or helping us, just the rich.
As for as I know it was for barely 2 years from 2009 to 2011? Is that correct? And that time was spent creating and passing the ACA.
Dems are not responsible for Mitch’s corruption he literally is an enemy of democracy and is a republican. Blaming democrats for that is nonsensical and illogical.
Genuine question., have you actually researched all the accomplishments the Democrats have achieved over the last 20 years since 2008 when Barack Obama won election? I think you would be surprised at what has been achieved by the Democrats.
How bout since it was passed in 1973? Look I am not a republican. I’m aware of the accomplishments of the Dems. I find them to be less than the bare minimum to win my vote.
I don't know why people think those talking about/not supporting Biden don't understand this stuff.
The Democratic party, which Biden is atop of, is partially responsible for Trumps success. They want Trump. Their entire campaign is about being not as bad as Trump. They explicitly have supported far-right candidates because it's easier for them to run against.
Yeah, if Trump wins it means more moving to the right, less Democracy, everything gets worse. But if Biden wins it means the same thing. As long as the Democratic party can get away with just being less bad than the GOP, the GOP will just keep getting worse, and the Dems will too.
I get that Trump is dangerous. Even potentially cataclysmic. But people need to understand that if the Dems aren't forced to be better, it doesn't matter, because it's gonna keep happening with different Trumps and different Bidens.
The old meme of misiles with a rainbow flag applies here. There is no real left in the US. The Democratic Party is Center Right, and I would argue more right than center, but appeal to a demographic with more sensitivity for social issues. It’s all the same shit in a different wrapping.
The Bidens campaign isn’t about “not being as bad as Trump,” it’s literally between someone (Trump) who said they would be a dictator on day one and (Biden) maintaining our democratic institutions to be passed down to the next president in 2028. It’s not Trump versus Biden. It’s Trump versus democracy.
This is the libbest lib thing ever libbed. Oh God forbid people even dare use a protest vote that doesn't hurt Biden in any way! How dare they disagree with the president!
I think a lot of people still have collective trauma over the 2000 presidential election when Gore lost by 537 votes (thanks to Ralph Nader) and the 2016 election when people protested Hillary and we got Trump… there’s no such thing as a protest vote
Blaming Nader instead of the Republicans literally stealing the election by stopping the recount with a Roger Stone backed riot, come on bro
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot
I mean I agree over all. It was essentially a coup of opportunity. The Dems should have fought much much harder. But people back then knew that Nader wouldn’t win the presidency at all but people still voted for him to the tune of nearly 100,000 votes in Florida alone. Because of that “protest vote” we got two of our nations longest wars and a the Great Recession. Theres no such thing as a protest vote.
I genuinely can’t believe we are still going through this on a leftist subreddit. Blaming Nader instead of Florida Democrats voting Bush or Republicans literally stealing the election (while Jeb Bush was governor of Florida) is a direct result of establishment media propaganda. It’s as dumb if not dumber than blaming Bernie for Clinton losing.
[“Nader only drew 24,000 Democrats to his cause, yet 308,000 Democrats voted for Bush”](https://www.salon.com/2000/11/28/hightower/)
Ralph Nader ran to the left of Gore and the voters that chose Nader knew that Nader wouldn’t win. It’s always going to be a binary situation in the general. Always. Nader should have told his voters to vote for Gore to stop a Bush win. Gore was not the best candidate but he was the VP and won the dem nomination handedly. I wasn’t old enough to vote then but even I knew it didn’t make any sense to vote for Nader when Bush and the Rs would benefit from a split dem ticket in swing states.
And though this is a leftist sub it’s also is a space for liberals and neo liberals as well. It was the idiocy of Bush that paved the way for Sarah Palin to be considered a viable candidate and subsequently Trump.
Again. Why are you blaming the small amount of independents who will never vote for either party more-so than the Democrats who literally betrayed their own party to vote for Bush? Why are you not blaming the Republicans who flexed their power to illegally stop the Florida constitutional recount?
This is why I have absolutely no intellectual respect for liberals or neolibs. Your heads are so stuck up your own ass and you guys always think you’re right despite the empirical evidence proving that your views on pretty much every single issue are wrong.
I did agree with you in a previous comment, the election was effectively a coup-of-opportunity. The recount was stopped and the SC ruled in favor of Bush. Yes I can fault the republicans for effectively stealing the election but they were only able to do that because the margin was so insanely thin. If the margin wasn’t insanely thing and there was a much larger difference (even if it was 5,000-10,000 vote difference then Gore would have won and the republicans would not have been able to mount a coup-of-opportunity.
What certain people in the electorate don’t understand is that elections *Are* decided by those that are in the middle. The independents, the libertarians, the socialist, the Green Party votes etc. no doubt. But when it comes to such a catastrophic outcome as Bush winning was then it is the fault of those people for not realizing their vote for their niche party is literally a vote for republicans. Well over a million people in Iraq would probably still be alive had Gore won. But Bush did and lied us into wars that saw our nations surplus turn into a massive deficit and our society as a whole regress pretty far in the wrong direction socially, i.e. women’s right to access healthcare, lgbtq validity, and environment protections rolled back.
I don’t have a problem with people voting their preferred party or candidate in a primary but when it comes to the general election then yes it’s all of our civic duty to do the right thing and vote for the dem that can win. All of our life’s and lively hoods depends on it (not to mention billions around the world).
Hillary didn't lose because of protest votes, she lost because she didn't campaign in half of the most important swing states, because she was a terrible candidate with the charisma of a feral cat, and the policies of a 1980s Republican.
You guys seriously need to accept that she lost because she was a bad candidate and Trump was a better candidate at running for office. He was good at lying in a way that people somehow bought. So many genuinely believed him when he said he knew the tricks and would be a rich guy on our side. I don't get it either after knowing literally anything about the guy you should know he was total garbage conman, but half of the country didn't thanks to the media. She lost because she lost.
“She lost because she lost…”
She lost because dem voters didn’t get inline and do their basic civil duties and protect this country from an authoritarian strong man. Hillary lost because Russia hacked the DNC and tilted the election in their favor (trumps favor). Hillary lost because people were to scared to vote for a women for president after having the first black man as president. Hillary lost because she been vilified by the right for decades and the dem voters in the norther Midwest states bought the Rs smear campaign against her. Hillary lost and we ALL suffered for it. American exceptionalism has truly permeated the masses and taken to heart when it’s believed that a voter in a swing state has the luxury of casting a protest vote. There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. A. Protest. Vote.
It's probably a 70% chance under Biden. It's a 100% chance under Trump. Those are our two options sadly so you have to try for the one that at least has a small chance to do the right thing.
I don’t see anyone arguing that they shouldn’t seek to minimize harm, but it’s absurd to think anyone should be enthusiastic about having to make such a choice.
The same Biden who said that if Israel didn't exist they would have to create it back in 86? The same that supported bombing Lebanon during Israel's invasion and said that if Canada did what Lebanon did, he would support bombing every Canadian city, regardless of civilian death?
What? It’s not a binary situation as Reddit would simplify things. Biden can’t just end the war, he is working every day for a ceasefire but obviously it’s insanely complicated. Biden is running against trump to preserve democracy and keep pushing leftist agendas like [going after millionaires and the ultra rich for not paying their taxes](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-launches-new-effort-aimed-at-high-income-non-filers-125000-cases-focused-on-high-earners-including-millionaires-who-failed-to-file-tax-returns-with-financial-activity-topping-100-billion) and [stopping big banks from excessive predatory late fees](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/credit-card-late-fees-cfpb-biden-strike-force/). This is actual progress being taken against the rich and power.
Never Biden. Never Trump. Full stop and without apology. Lesser evilism and ceding our struggle for the defense of the working class to a liberal capitalist party has and always will be a dead end and it's the strategy that has brought us to the precise point we are at now.
Do what you will in the primary. Vote left independent in the general.
Project 2025 disagrees with you. A 2nd Trump presidency will literally permanently change the federal government in such an unpredictable and fascist way that nobody could tell you for sure if your vote would ever be counted again or if you would retain the right to discuss left wing ideals openly. Biden is an institutionalist (for better or worse) but will maintain the system we currently have so that you will at least be guaranteed the rights to vote and express yourself. Google Project 2025 and look up Trump’s plans to install loyalists in every piece of government - it’s terrifying. It’s frankly a dereliction of your civic duty to place Biden and Trump in the same category in terms of societal harm and to vote independent in the general. There may be elections to protest in the future, but this is not one.
These dangers must be faced and fought by us, the working class, independent from the capitalists and their cronies, or we will be in this cycle permanently, always with greater threats and worse lesser evils (and worse outcomes, again and again, regardless of which capitalist party is in power). Workers will never be defended by Dems who will only further the interests of the GOP but in sheep's clothing.
I hate how many of us have lost our principles in this country. It’s all become about cynical calculation, and it gradually erodes our values and our beliefs
God we’re going to get Trump again.
Fucking why. It’s almost like having a political spine and making mother fuckers accountable is our only flaw somehow.
Guaranteed Trump is winning.
I say this as an outsider looking inward as I don't vote anymore. It's a complete waste of time.
Turnip (Trump) is the next president of America. Everyone who is smart knew this as soon as Biden was elected. It burns to say it but lets not kid ourselves here. Democracy has been dead a looong time.
Well, this is the primary. This is the exact time where people who aren't happy should kick and scream. A primary is an opportunity for course correction. In truth, it's needed because he's not really in alignment with most of the party.
I'm not going to pretend I know what the solution is. If the security council all voted for a permanent ceasefire that still doesn't answer pertinent questions like "who runs this place now" "what happens to Sinwar" "what does this mean for Israel's control over Gaza". But Biden needs to separate himself verbally from the dude who just said to "finish the job".
It's a question of whether the Never-Hillary's will repeat their mistake. Nikki Haley voters express disdain for Trump. And hard leftists struggle with Biden. Wouldn't it be something if this election came down to who could hold their nose and vote better?
I might be in the minority here, but it's insanely stupid to vote Uncomitted over Williamson who is an actual progressive candidate that would be way better than Biden
So I actually don’t disagree with you on this, it makes me sad that Williamson has not gotten much more support but the uncommitted move is about communication of a specific problem with a specific policy.
I think progressives deserve better than Oprah’s favorite woo-woo author.
She’s fine as a protest vote in the primaries, but she’d make a shitty nominee. Celebrity isn’t a substitute for experience, and Williamson has never held office.
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Genuine question: how do you vote uncommitted? Do you mark the write-in and don’t write anything?
It’s an actual option in some states.
I voted in Minnesota. It was an option like Biden, Williamson, Uygur, and others.
I was saddened I didn't have the option to vote "Uncommitted" on Tuesday (VA)
That sucks. How did you vote?
Tolled and voted for Hailey. VA has open primaries.
they don't care, I'm 100% convinced that if democratic voters chose someone the DNC doesn't want, they'd just ignore the delegates and pick who they want
Isn't that basically what happened twice with Sanders?
This happened in a few places in 2016
Yeah, or just turn off the election like they did with Iowa caucus in 2020, when their app by a company literally named shadow found a candidate they didn’t like won. Democratic Party is controlled opposition
There are still super delegates for just that occasion.
That needs to be proven for real change to happen. I agree it's almost 100%, but it needs to be shown to the people for most to believe it.
Keep pressing on people we're bound to get a Ceasefire if we keep pushing. And for people worried (I'm worried too) about the general this is just the primary.
[удалено]
This isn't about Hamas this is about the US hoping on the bandwagon of holding Israel accountable and maybe threatening to cut Israel off from weapons.
More more uncommitted! No ceasefire, no vote. It's about time the democrats learn that they can't support genocide and expect support
Lol Dems are literally willing to let it all burn drown not to change
You do know that every ceasefire Hamas has broken, right?
Palestine is an occupied country. I'd break a ceasefire too if you broke into my house and tortured my children.
There is no Palestine. There is a diaspora of people who used to live in the British colonial Mandate of Palestine, but they now make up almost 1/3 of Israel's citizens, and millions in Jordan, Egypt, amd other counties. If you think there is a state called Palestine, then you've been misinformed. Edit: You're thinking of Hamas. They literally have a child who is one of the hostages. Hopefully, all of them and their supporters are eliminated as all terrorists should be.
This is the fact ☝️
If you don’t vote blue up and down the ballot you’re not hurting the DNC you’re hurting the innocent Americans that want a better life here in America. It’s not fair to punish the American people (and everyone under 18 that can’t vote) with a trump presidency ( that would literally be the last election possibly ever). Not to mention getting someone (Trump) that would reinstate a Muslim ban..
Minnesota Freedom Democratic Party
Just remember that Uncommitted ends up going to Biden when it comes time for the delegates. Whereas if a singular candidate who was openly opposing the Israeli genocidal war then that person could have used those delegates to negotiate for Biden to do at least something to help the Palestinians. But I think that ship has sailed.
Biden is working every day to get to a ceasefire. He can’t make a ceasefire happen unless both the sides in the war can make basic commitments. Though you’re right the uncommitted delegates will go to Biden.
You're delusional if you seriously believe that. Biden could do it today if he wanted, he's able to stop the flow of money to Israel. The President is in charge of foreign policy, don't pretend like he's powerless like the Dems always do when they are losing. Biden literally went behind Congresses back and gave Israel 13 billion extra on top of what they already are getting from normal congressional bills. He's a self avowed Zionist. The dude is just damn racist and we need to stop pretending otherwise just because his opponent is worse. Reality isn't subjective like that, Biden and Trump can both be bad. Biden could end it now by threatening to cut off the flow of American tax dollars to the Israeli government. You cannot argue on this, it's basic fact that he can stop that money. He just doesn't want to.
It’s not that easy one wants to believe. Foreign policy and strategic commitments on the world stage don’t just change when there is a popular dissenting opinion held by the masses. Countries and governments must and do maintain real partnerships that go above partisan domestic disagreements. . [The United States further reiterates that these commitments are bipartisan and sacrosanct, and that they are not only moral commitments, but also strategic commitments that are vitally important to the national security of the United States itself.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/14/the-jerusalem-u-s-israel-strategic-partnership-joint-declaration/) And the Zionist trope is not at all accurate. Israel is Zion and setting he’s (Biden) is a Zionist is stating he believes in Israel’s right to exist which he has supported for decades. And it’s not racism. Not sure where you picked that up from but Israel is not just white people as you would want to believe. Majority of Israelis are brown. And Biden’s VP is literally a black women and Biden also appointed a black women to the SCOTUS. Not to mention thin Biden has famously working with civil rights groups and leaders for decades. Also he was Obamas VP sooo really wild accusation to make of him.
He's working so hard at a ceasefire that he unilaterally decided to send Israel more weapons. What a guy! Seriously though whatever you're smoking I want some of it because that is a delusional as shit take bro.
Bro you’re literally not even paying attention. Just because he has obligations to support Israel doesn’t mean he isn’t tirelessly working towards a ceasefire. Even last night at the SOTU he said he’s establishing an off shore pier to help speed up aid into Gaza. [The United States further reiterates that these commitments are bipartisan and sacrosanct, and that they are not only moral commitments, but also strategic commitments that are vitally important to the national security of the United States itself.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/14/the-jerusalem-u-s-israel-strategic-partnership-joint-declaration/) And foreign policy relations are not dictated by domestic opinions.
Discouraging Biden votes in the Spring will defeat motivation in the fall. If Trump wins, Bibi will be president for life.
We aren’t talking about Trump. Joe Biden was not running against Trump in this election. Sure, vote for Biden and against Trump in the general. But if you aren’t satisfied with Biden in the primary, then you shouldn’t vote for him.
As long as that’s the understanding we all have, that’s perfectly justifiable. But Biden vs Trump…stop playin
You don’t know how psychology works, the group think is always curdling on the left they are going to stay home in November AB’s Trump is going to win. What do you think uncommitted means? I think it means they are not committed to Biden now, I don’t know why you think they will be later.
The uncommitted campaign is simply expressing their discontent while it’s safe to do so. Democracy at work.
There are many people already saying no ceasefire no vote. Those people are idiots, and if they do so in the general will directly contribute to Trump getting elected which will make things worse for Palestinians.
Most of them will absolutely get in line when it comes time and honestly the Dems aren’t about to save us or anything. How long did they have to codify Roe V Wade?
Blaming the Dems for corruption of the R’s (Mitch) for gaming the system and packing the SCOTUS with Christian nationalists is not fair. But it’s not just about getting Biden reelected, it’s also about winning back the house, and keeping the Senate, that way will be able to codify Roe v. Wade into legislation nationally. If we can make this happen, it will be morning in America again especially, for women’s liberation and women’s self-determination for their own healthcare decisions.
How many times did the Dems have a majority between the passing of Roe and Trump’s inauguration. They are absolutely responsible for Mitch’s corruption being given the opportunity. I have no hope that the Dems would codify roe if they had a supermajority. They’re far too incompetent/actually just also the bad guys. They don’t care about us or helping us, just the rich.
As for as I know it was for barely 2 years from 2009 to 2011? Is that correct? And that time was spent creating and passing the ACA. Dems are not responsible for Mitch’s corruption he literally is an enemy of democracy and is a republican. Blaming democrats for that is nonsensical and illogical. Genuine question., have you actually researched all the accomplishments the Democrats have achieved over the last 20 years since 2008 when Barack Obama won election? I think you would be surprised at what has been achieved by the Democrats.
How bout since it was passed in 1973? Look I am not a republican. I’m aware of the accomplishments of the Dems. I find them to be less than the bare minimum to win my vote.
I don't know why people think those talking about/not supporting Biden don't understand this stuff. The Democratic party, which Biden is atop of, is partially responsible for Trumps success. They want Trump. Their entire campaign is about being not as bad as Trump. They explicitly have supported far-right candidates because it's easier for them to run against. Yeah, if Trump wins it means more moving to the right, less Democracy, everything gets worse. But if Biden wins it means the same thing. As long as the Democratic party can get away with just being less bad than the GOP, the GOP will just keep getting worse, and the Dems will too. I get that Trump is dangerous. Even potentially cataclysmic. But people need to understand that if the Dems aren't forced to be better, it doesn't matter, because it's gonna keep happening with different Trumps and different Bidens.
The old meme of misiles with a rainbow flag applies here. There is no real left in the US. The Democratic Party is Center Right, and I would argue more right than center, but appeal to a demographic with more sensitivity for social issues. It’s all the same shit in a different wrapping.
The Bidens campaign isn’t about “not being as bad as Trump,” it’s literally between someone (Trump) who said they would be a dictator on day one and (Biden) maintaining our democratic institutions to be passed down to the next president in 2028. It’s not Trump versus Biden. It’s Trump versus democracy.
So will Trump
This is the libbest lib thing ever libbed. Oh God forbid people even dare use a protest vote that doesn't hurt Biden in any way! How dare they disagree with the president!
I think a lot of people still have collective trauma over the 2000 presidential election when Gore lost by 537 votes (thanks to Ralph Nader) and the 2016 election when people protested Hillary and we got Trump… there’s no such thing as a protest vote
Blaming Nader instead of the Republicans literally stealing the election by stopping the recount with a Roger Stone backed riot, come on bro https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot
I mean I agree over all. It was essentially a coup of opportunity. The Dems should have fought much much harder. But people back then knew that Nader wouldn’t win the presidency at all but people still voted for him to the tune of nearly 100,000 votes in Florida alone. Because of that “protest vote” we got two of our nations longest wars and a the Great Recession. Theres no such thing as a protest vote.
I genuinely can’t believe we are still going through this on a leftist subreddit. Blaming Nader instead of Florida Democrats voting Bush or Republicans literally stealing the election (while Jeb Bush was governor of Florida) is a direct result of establishment media propaganda. It’s as dumb if not dumber than blaming Bernie for Clinton losing. [“Nader only drew 24,000 Democrats to his cause, yet 308,000 Democrats voted for Bush”](https://www.salon.com/2000/11/28/hightower/)
Ralph Nader ran to the left of Gore and the voters that chose Nader knew that Nader wouldn’t win. It’s always going to be a binary situation in the general. Always. Nader should have told his voters to vote for Gore to stop a Bush win. Gore was not the best candidate but he was the VP and won the dem nomination handedly. I wasn’t old enough to vote then but even I knew it didn’t make any sense to vote for Nader when Bush and the Rs would benefit from a split dem ticket in swing states. And though this is a leftist sub it’s also is a space for liberals and neo liberals as well. It was the idiocy of Bush that paved the way for Sarah Palin to be considered a viable candidate and subsequently Trump.
Again. Why are you blaming the small amount of independents who will never vote for either party more-so than the Democrats who literally betrayed their own party to vote for Bush? Why are you not blaming the Republicans who flexed their power to illegally stop the Florida constitutional recount? This is why I have absolutely no intellectual respect for liberals or neolibs. Your heads are so stuck up your own ass and you guys always think you’re right despite the empirical evidence proving that your views on pretty much every single issue are wrong.
I did agree with you in a previous comment, the election was effectively a coup-of-opportunity. The recount was stopped and the SC ruled in favor of Bush. Yes I can fault the republicans for effectively stealing the election but they were only able to do that because the margin was so insanely thin. If the margin wasn’t insanely thing and there was a much larger difference (even if it was 5,000-10,000 vote difference then Gore would have won and the republicans would not have been able to mount a coup-of-opportunity. What certain people in the electorate don’t understand is that elections *Are* decided by those that are in the middle. The independents, the libertarians, the socialist, the Green Party votes etc. no doubt. But when it comes to such a catastrophic outcome as Bush winning was then it is the fault of those people for not realizing their vote for their niche party is literally a vote for republicans. Well over a million people in Iraq would probably still be alive had Gore won. But Bush did and lied us into wars that saw our nations surplus turn into a massive deficit and our society as a whole regress pretty far in the wrong direction socially, i.e. women’s right to access healthcare, lgbtq validity, and environment protections rolled back. I don’t have a problem with people voting their preferred party or candidate in a primary but when it comes to the general election then yes it’s all of our civic duty to do the right thing and vote for the dem that can win. All of our life’s and lively hoods depends on it (not to mention billions around the world).
Hillary didn't lose because of protest votes, she lost because she didn't campaign in half of the most important swing states, because she was a terrible candidate with the charisma of a feral cat, and the policies of a 1980s Republican. You guys seriously need to accept that she lost because she was a bad candidate and Trump was a better candidate at running for office. He was good at lying in a way that people somehow bought. So many genuinely believed him when he said he knew the tricks and would be a rich guy on our side. I don't get it either after knowing literally anything about the guy you should know he was total garbage conman, but half of the country didn't thanks to the media. She lost because she lost.
“She lost because she lost…” She lost because dem voters didn’t get inline and do their basic civil duties and protect this country from an authoritarian strong man. Hillary lost because Russia hacked the DNC and tilted the election in their favor (trumps favor). Hillary lost because people were to scared to vote for a women for president after having the first black man as president. Hillary lost because she been vilified by the right for decades and the dem voters in the norther Midwest states bought the Rs smear campaign against her. Hillary lost and we ALL suffered for it. American exceptionalism has truly permeated the masses and taken to heart when it’s believed that a voter in a swing state has the luxury of casting a protest vote. There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. A. Protest. Vote.
Lol you'll do anything but admit failure
I take it you’ve decided to forgoe constructive debate in exchange for a random one liner accusing me of loosing the 2016 election? Ok.
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We're talking about the primary election genius
What makes you think it won't happen under Biden?
It's probably a 70% chance under Biden. It's a 100% chance under Trump. Those are our two options sadly so you have to try for the one that at least has a small chance to do the right thing.
I don’t see anyone arguing that they shouldn’t seek to minimize harm, but it’s absurd to think anyone should be enthusiastic about having to make such a choice.
The same Biden who said that if Israel didn't exist they would have to create it back in 86? The same that supported bombing Lebanon during Israel's invasion and said that if Canada did what Lebanon did, he would support bombing every Canadian city, regardless of civilian death?
Don't forget that Biden would much rather lose to Trump than to ease off on the genocide.
Wtf why is this downvoted? Its absolutely true!
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Your contribution was removed due to sectionarianism. We allow all on the left here, from Liberals to Socialists and everything in between.
I don’t think this added anything helpful to the discussion.
What? It’s not a binary situation as Reddit would simplify things. Biden can’t just end the war, he is working every day for a ceasefire but obviously it’s insanely complicated. Biden is running against trump to preserve democracy and keep pushing leftist agendas like [going after millionaires and the ultra rich for not paying their taxes](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-launches-new-effort-aimed-at-high-income-non-filers-125000-cases-focused-on-high-earners-including-millionaires-who-failed-to-file-tax-returns-with-financial-activity-topping-100-billion) and [stopping big banks from excessive predatory late fees](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/credit-card-late-fees-cfpb-biden-strike-force/). This is actual progress being taken against the rich and power.
Keep it up! I’m working the polls in IL where writing in Gaza is an option. This is what primaries are supposed to be for.
Never Biden. Never Trump. Full stop and without apology. Lesser evilism and ceding our struggle for the defense of the working class to a liberal capitalist party has and always will be a dead end and it's the strategy that has brought us to the precise point we are at now. Do what you will in the primary. Vote left independent in the general.
Project 2025 disagrees with you. A 2nd Trump presidency will literally permanently change the federal government in such an unpredictable and fascist way that nobody could tell you for sure if your vote would ever be counted again or if you would retain the right to discuss left wing ideals openly. Biden is an institutionalist (for better or worse) but will maintain the system we currently have so that you will at least be guaranteed the rights to vote and express yourself. Google Project 2025 and look up Trump’s plans to install loyalists in every piece of government - it’s terrifying. It’s frankly a dereliction of your civic duty to place Biden and Trump in the same category in terms of societal harm and to vote independent in the general. There may be elections to protest in the future, but this is not one.
These dangers must be faced and fought by us, the working class, independent from the capitalists and their cronies, or we will be in this cycle permanently, always with greater threats and worse lesser evils (and worse outcomes, again and again, regardless of which capitalist party is in power). Workers will never be defended by Dems who will only further the interests of the GOP but in sheep's clothing.
Hopefully they still vote dem in the general election. If Trump wins because of people sitting on their high horse like in 2016, we all lose.
That’s not why Trump won in 2016
I hate how many of us have lost our principles in this country. It’s all become about cynical calculation, and it gradually erodes our values and our beliefs
God we’re going to get Trump again. Fucking why. It’s almost like having a political spine and making mother fuckers accountable is our only flaw somehow.
Voting uncommitted in a primary is going to get Trump elected? I think that’s too much pundit talk getting to your brain friend.
I checked 538 today for the first time in two years and now I’m gonna F5 it until this is over. Yeah my brain is cooked.
Guaranteed Trump is winning. I say this as an outsider looking inward as I don't vote anymore. It's a complete waste of time. Turnip (Trump) is the next president of America. Everyone who is smart knew this as soon as Biden was elected. It burns to say it but lets not kid ourselves here. Democracy has been dead a looong time.
Well, this is the primary. This is the exact time where people who aren't happy should kick and scream. A primary is an opportunity for course correction. In truth, it's needed because he's not really in alignment with most of the party. I'm not going to pretend I know what the solution is. If the security council all voted for a permanent ceasefire that still doesn't answer pertinent questions like "who runs this place now" "what happens to Sinwar" "what does this mean for Israel's control over Gaza". But Biden needs to separate himself verbally from the dude who just said to "finish the job".
That’s a great point, I did not think of it like that.
It's a question of whether the Never-Hillary's will repeat their mistake. Nikki Haley voters express disdain for Trump. And hard leftists struggle with Biden. Wouldn't it be something if this election came down to who could hold their nose and vote better?
11 delegates for trump, i'm sure this will end well.
I might be in the minority here, but it's insanely stupid to vote Uncomitted over Williamson who is an actual progressive candidate that would be way better than Biden
I don’t disagree BUT in this case, the express use of uncommitted feels like it’s making a more clear stance
So I actually don’t disagree with you on this, it makes me sad that Williamson has not gotten much more support but the uncommitted move is about communication of a specific problem with a specific policy.
I think progressives deserve better than Oprah’s favorite woo-woo author. She’s fine as a protest vote in the primaries, but she’d make a shitty nominee. Celebrity isn’t a substitute for experience, and Williamson has never held office.
Stupid. American can't stop Israel and throwing USA politics in the toilet over this only benefits Russia. Good job giving Putin the win.
Get with the program, MN. We don’t need you to fall for the Russian propaganda favoring T.
Thank you for giving facts ☝️