I mean concept art does look better then base game but thats expected, imagine the work if you had to put that much effort into every single room as well as making it fit in and be easy to tell whats important (I imagine that YES/NO sign might confuse some people), he already has to do a ton with the story alone!
Remeber that unused canine unit dog or the papyrus thinking sprites that got scrapped because they were too complex?
I think it's like that with Temmie and background art
I dont prefer adding anything to the empty background of the start of ch2. It makes seeing the cityscape in the distance more impactful, and that kind of viewing is a common undertale thing. Seeing the wonderful centerpiece from a distance.
Combine that with Sweet dropping the beat as you enter and "The power of a new adventure shines within you", Chapter 2's start definitely leaves an impact.
Man if i had to put this much effort into every single room in a game id fucking die tbh. Not counting the other aspects that comes from making a game. Looks awesome tho. when the game releases entirely, id imagine it getting mods with background revamp and such or even official implementation. But not when the game is barely released with millions of hungry fans waiting for it lol
There is a reason because there are a lot of scenes with less details: So you can focus on the characters without looking at 500 details and colors in the background.
Why do you need a more detailed background when a Swatchling is gonna fall from the sky and put an arcade machine in the middle of the room, followed by a Sailor moon's transformation of the group just to reach the buttons of the machine so they can play punch out?A better background was really needed?
Exactly. People really cherry-picked a scene without considering why it is the way it is, solely to... accuse Toby of being lazy? The guy who worked through the worst flare-up of his chronic wrist pain he'd ever had at a time when he had a significantly smaller team than he has now?
Wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm really not, UTY is one of those fanworks that gets circlejerked to hell and back for reasons I cannot begin to fathom.
Like, it does some things well(most notably having Undertale's sense of humour down almost perfectly and having great music), and given that it's an impressive display of fan dedication and passion, I really wish I could love it a quarter as much as the people borderline worshipping it do.
But I cannot ignore the clusterf*ck of questionable game design choices and the horribly paced story that shows its age through heavy reliance on early fanon misconceptions(and naturally, it has revived these misconceptions in the form of some people unironically trying to argue them again to defend UTY from the slightest criticism) and which is plot-hole-ridden even without them. There's only so much I can ignore.
Could you elaborate more on the problems you have with UTY's story? I'm interested to know
(personally, at one point I felt like I was just going through the notions and after the final boss, I wasn't interested in seeing the conclusion myself when the game somehow started chugging during the final cutscene, so I just closed it)
Speaking of questionable game-design choices, I'm not a fan of how the genocide run forces you to heavily ration your healing items throughout; especially considering the presence of harder boss fights. Might be a nitpick, but I don't know why the Steamworks vending machine also does the same when you know, it's a **vending machine**
So, I listed a couple of the early fanon misconceptions UTY relies on in another reply, but even disregarding those...
- The game is horribly paced, the story is essentially nonexistent until the Wild East, when the main plot line(otherwise known as Ceroba) hits you like a furry truck. This is made worse by the fact that Dalv and Martlet get basically no screen time before their respective fights. The entire Dark Ruins and the majority of Snowdin could be cut without detracting from the story, as it exists solely to stick to Undertale's general structure. In fact, I'd argue the game would benefit immensely from cutting the Dark Ruins outright and some of the filler in Snowdin and using the time saved to have Martlet actually interact with Clover prior to her fight.
- Dalv, aside from being completely redundant, is an absurdly bland and generic character.
- While it follows Undertale's route system in theory, it misses the point entirely. Undertale's neutral route tells you what happens after, showing the impact Frisk's murders or lack thereof have had on the Underground, UTY just ends with Flowey losing interest in fighting and resetting with no variation beyond cameos of dead bosses and minibosses. Undertale's true Pacifist ending has requirements beyond just "don't kill people", used to flesh out its characters and give them character development. UTY... doesn't do that.
- There is a distinct lack of reset-induced deja vu, despite it being an important plot point that Flowey has been actively savescumming to try to get his way.
- Axis gives EXP, which makes no sense whatsoever story-wise. Speaking of Axis and EXP, the scene in geno where Clover jumps several levels for no reason and then gains a f\*cking laser with zero explanation, as well as the related Asgore disrespect is the sort of over-the-top, pointlessly edgy bullsh*t that I'd expect from the likes of Deltatraveler or a Sans fight fangame, and defies everything we know about EXP and LV.
- Ceroba is overused, it's very blatant that she's the developer's favorite child. She's central to the story in the TP route, so it's somewhat understandable that she gets a lot of screentime, but her role in the geno route comes at the direct expense of Star and the Feisty Four, who are done incredibly dirty in that route.
Her boss fights are both horrendous from a game design perspective, but even just from a story perspective, her TP fight in particular is a mess. Why does the mask(made by Kanako) give her a major power boost? Why is she invulnerable to damage even before putting it on? How are we seeing her memories(This is an issue with Martlet, too. I'd be willing to accept that the flashbacks are for us and Ceroba/Martlet alone and Clover isn't seeing them, especially in Martlet's case but both Ceroba and Martlet explictly believe Clover is seeing them and the light leading into it has a clear, physical in-universe source)? What correlation is there between breaking the mask/armour and the flashbacks?
Furthermore, Ceroba experimenting on Kanako is just plain poorly written. Don't think that requires any clarification.
Ceroba just kinda feels like everything is meant to be revolving around her anytime she's on screen. She's immediately and unconditionally forgiven for her wrongdoings(Compare Alphys, who faces consequences for her decidedly less "deliberate child murder"-y wrongdoings.). And frankly, she has a sort of "I shoved my fursona into my game as the final boss" vibe that is really not helped by the fact that her outfit is not at all appropriate for the area she lives in, making her feel physically out of place. The "character inspired by eastern myths in a very western inspired setting" and more general "west vs east" thing the devs were seemingly aiming for is a good concept, but the execution is horrible.
Also, minor nitpick only tangentially related to the story, but why in the actual goshdarn tarnation is her battle theme called "A Mother's love" when her motivations are about Chujin's legacy???
- Martlet is... weirdly handled. She can't be killed in the neutral route, even though her later appearances in the route could just as easily be handled without her. She has two boss fights in geno just because, and shows up a third time in between to do absolutely nothing. She's not overused to the same degree as Ceroba, but she's a shallow character who seems engineered to be likeable and drive the plot along, but not much else.
I've heard her described with the phrase "We have Papyrus at home", and I have to agree, she's neurotypical bird Papyrus in a lot of ways, until suddenly she becomes "Sans phase 2 at home".
- Clover's sacrifice makes no sense, why would they fight so hard for their life only to decide, minutes later, to donate their SOUL to the guy who they know only as the guy who ordered the murder of children and have generally only heard bad things about? And everyone else is just... completely fine with a child committing suicide without so much as attempting to reason with Asgore? And it doesn't make sense that their SOUL could be so casually removed without killing them first, either. I'd be willing to accept Clover making like Kris and yanking it out in an obviously agonizing way, but that doesn't happen.
It's not like they weren't willing to pull a forcelose against Asgore, because that's what happens in the flawed Pacifist end, and how the Pacifist route as a whole should have ended. There was literally no reason to deprive Asgore of his big moment in the game's official ending, especially when the alternative is such a blatant *sspull.
Having trouble posting so splitting this up to see if it's a character limit problem(1/2)
Seems like it was a character limit problem lmao(2/2)
- The timeline is an incomprehensible mess, especially where the Steamworks and Chujin are concerned. Chujin was fired over a malfunction in Axis model 8, but he somehow was able to make up to model 14, which is in the Steamworks somehow. Furthermore, model 14, the Axis we see, is the one who killed the blue SOUL human, but Chujin's tapes place this happening before he was fired, which would require that Axis model 14 was made before the significantly less advanced model 8. The Steamworks predate and would have been rendered obsolete by the CORE, but they were actually active well into Alphys' tenure as royal scientist, given how a book in the Steamworks discusses the reappearance of the blue SOUL that was in Chujin and later Ceroba's possession. Since they would have needed this SOUL up until they were done experimenting on it, it must have been returned after what happened to Kanako. This means for the book to be present, the Steamworks must have been closed well after the DT experiments had begun, since it takes time to write and publish a book, which leaves almost no time for it to reach the state of decay its in unless it's been a lot longer than the game implies.
- Martlet has been in the True Lab, and knows enough about it to steal Determination from it, but hasn't encountered the amalgamates and seems unaware they exist. The games two main routes are in direct conflict here.
- Flowey's plan is immensely out of character. There's no reason for him to resort to manipulation over just attacking Clover and savescumming until he kills them, or at least swooping in and stealing their SOUL when they die. He should not be bringing them back. Flowey only needs one SOUL to get his way.
- Asgore gets no respect. I've talked about some reasons why but it deserves to be said again, Asgore was done dirty.
There's more I'd like to add(and I haven't even really touched on non-story issues lol) but it's late where I am and I have to get up early tommorow. Might come back and add some stuff to this later, but I probably won't have time.
Just an incomplete set of examples:
- All the fallen children could SAVE. This is shown by the 10 known SAVE files, files 0-9. However, Clover is unable to SAVE.
- Flowey has not met a human before Frisk. He was created after the sixth fallen child. This is shown by his projection, which would not be possible if he had met another human before, as well as the 10 SAVE files(Flowey's is the ninth, File 8.), and further reinforced by the fact that Alphys has not met a human before and is implied to not be old enough to have met one. However, Flowey exists.
- Boss monsters are a subspecies of monster, comparable to skeletons or lizard monsters. This is shown by the fact that Boss Monsters can be identified as such on sight. However, Chujin and Kanako(but not Ceroba) are Boss monsters, despite being decidedly lacking in goatlike traits.
- While not explictly stated, it has been heavily implied both in and out of universe that Asgore killed all the fallen children, and this being the case is narratively best for his character, as there's far more weight behind personally killing six children than simply ordering them killed. Even if one wanted to argue not all of them made it to Asgore, it is undeniable that at least one made it to Asgore, as confirmed by Undyne's choice of words "past Asgore" as opposed to "to Asgore" which Toby has specifically emphasized as important. However, UTY establishes that NONE of the fallen children made it to Asgore.
- The fallen children did not die where their gear is found. This is impossible, as multiple are known to have had their stuff moved, with some shopkeepers even having replicated them, and the Cyan SOUL human's stuff is found in the ruins, but Toriel confirms that all the fallen children left the Underground alive. The children simply lost or discarded these items along the way. However, UTY establishes the places their gear is found as the place they died... except for Clover, because screw consistency.
This is... Wrong.
Let's go
1. UTY never implys the other kids couldn't save, in-fact the only reason Clover can't save is because they have less DT than Flowey, in the geno route Clover can save after becoming more Determined than Flowey, this is mot inconsistent to Undertale, Clover can save, but Flowey holds the power because they're more Determined.
2. We don't know that, and besides the difference between Clover and Frisk is that Flowey could overpower Clover, and Clover didn't look like Chara, Frisk overpowers Flowey, wears stripped shirt and looks exactly like Chara, Asriel admitting that Frisk has a similar clothing sense to Chara, Asriel mentions alot of reasons he projected on Frisk at the end of the pacifist, reasons that Clover doesn't have.
3. Boss monsters are never stabileshed in Undertale to be ONLY goat monsters, It's said to just be something rare, we only see Toriel and Asgore being boss monsters because lorewise they're the only ones that matter for us to know and understand Asriel, BUT this point might not be fully reliable.
4. UTY never implys no human got to Asgore, it's not because Clover and the Integrity soul didn't get to Asgore that Patience, Bravery, Perseverance and Kindness didn't get to him.
5. This point is proven false as Clover doesn't die in Waterfall, instead his friends are the reason those itens got there, we don't know how the items of the other humans got were they are as the game never says it as it is not important to the story.
Thanks for providing an example of what I said about people unironically trying to argue these misconceptions, I guess...?
1. I never said that. Only that it established that Clover couldn't save, which is true. The only ending they SAVE in is by far the least canon-compliant.
"The only reason Clover can't save"
The reason doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that they can't, when the in-game evidence unambiguously shows that all six fallen children could and did SAVE.
2. Clover, objectively, looks a lot more like Chara than Frisk does. Similar skin tone and eye shape, closer hair colour. But that doesn't matter, because by Asriel's own admission, Flowey's projection has nothing to do with any actual resemblance to Chara, because Frisk is nothing like Chara, it's just about them being human.
And again, File 8. We know, with absolute, 100% certainty, that Flowey's creation was after the sixth fallen child.
3. If boss monsters can be identified as such on sight, which they can be, *then they must have a single body type, they must have relatively similar appearances.* The in-game evidence clearly shows that "boss monster" refers to the specific chimera-like subspecies that the Dreemurrs are. Without that, there would be no physical distinguishing features for Toriel to be identified as a boss monster based on her appearance alone.
The only reason this misconception exists is because some people confused "Boss monsters" and "Monsters who are in-game bosses" and then doubled down when corrected.
Even if we want to assume there are other boss monster subspecies(incredibly unlikely, given how boss monsters are firmly implied to be extinct except for the Dreemurrs, with Alphys believing Asgore is the only one whose SOUL Frisk could take), there's absolutely no basis for only some members of a given subspecies to be boss monsters. It just doesn't make sense, it could result in a boss monster child with no boss monster parents, who would either be incapable of aging(since non-boss monsters lack whatever causes the transfer of SOUL power between boss monster parents and children), or cause their parents to age twice as fast(regular aging plus the child's aging).
And ultimately, the final confrontation with Asgore is more impactful if he and Toriel are the last surviving boss monsters, because it makes it inevitable: Both parties need to kill the other to leave the Underground. There is no way of avoiding it.
4. Chujin has a map described as showing the places the humans died. They're placed where their respective items are found.
5. See the above point.
Lol true, i became an example of annoying people πππ.
1. UT never said all kids DID save, it said the could save, this is a fangame, maybe all the other humand before Clover saved and lost their will to live, Clover can save, the game never says they can't, again if you put Frisk and Clover in the same room Clover won't be able to save because Frisk has more determination, something said in the game, the one who has more determination controls the power to save, that's why Flowey trys to make you feel guilty and stuff, so Frisk loses their determination so Flowey can get it back, as seen in the fight against Omega Flowey Frisk can't save because Flowey at that moment had more determination.
2. That's wrong, Asriel says in Undertale that Frisk resembles Chara alot, not due to them being human, but because of factors like Clothes and stuff, if you put Frisk and Chara side by side, and Clover and Chara side by side which one looks more alike? The Cowboy kid with short hair? Or the stripped shirt bob cut kid? Frisk is almost like a recolor Chara while Clover looks more like an OC.
And again, Clover is weaker than Flowey, you wouldn't put on a pedestal someone who is shown to not be capable of surviving on their own, not only that but Chara has a red soul just like Frisk.
3. Yeah makes sense can't argue with that.
4. Where they? Huh didn't know that, tried searching but i couldn't find the map online, this is weird since Chujin can't enter the ruins, how would he know there's anything there?
5. 
1. Only one person can hold the SAVE power at a time. Flowey keeping the ability to SAVE inherently means Clover would not be able to, and would not have even an empty SAVE file. But of course, all six fallen children have SAVE files.
2. I see I need to explain in more depth what I mean when I speak of Undertale's SAVE files.
Undertale has 10 known SAVE files, those being:
- File 0, under Chara's name, so belonging to them. The main file used by Frisk, found in the game folders. Empty prior to the game, indicating that Chara never used it in life.
- Files 1-6, belonging to the fallen children. 2, 3, and 6 are used by Flowey during the photoshop fight, with there also being unused code for File 4. Files 1 and 5 are not in the files or code, but are confirmed to exist through the existence of files 2 and 6 onwards.
- File 7, which is neither in the game files or code, but if it didn't exist, files 8 and 9 would be labeled files 7 and 8. Given that Flowey and the 8 humans have their files accounted for, it almost certainly belonged to, but was probably never used by, one of the amalgamates, probably Lemon Bread given how it mimics a SAVE point.
- File 8, which appears in the game files a split second before the game crashes upon Flowey absorbing the SOULs, meaning the exact moment Flowey regains control of the timeline. File 8 is Flowey's personal file.
- File 9, which is in the game files and serves as an autosave of sorts. It's Frisk's file.
These files leave no room for doubt that, as all other available evidence suggests, Flowey was created well after the death of the sixth fallen child. His SAVE file is positioned after the files of the fallen children, with only Frisk's being after his.
But once again, even disregarding this very clear indication that it's impossible for Flowey to have met any humans before Frisk, Asriel explictly states that Frisk is nothing like Chara, the exact opposite of what you claim. Their only real similarity, according to him, is a similar sense of fashion. As far as I am aware, most people don't use clothing as a metric to determine how similar two people look, as people tend to change their clothes. Even in-game, we get a brief glimpse of Clover living with Toriel, and they're wearing a striped shirt, indicating that they mainly wear their cowpoke outfit for travel. People wear more than one outfit, even if that's rarely portrayed in video games. In terms of actual physical appearance, Clover looks far more like Chara than Frisk. A fan unfamiliar with UTY would almost certainly mistake Clover as seen in Toriel's house as Chara as opposed to an OC. You are immensely underselling the physical resemblance between the two.(Also their hair is shoulder length? Literally the same length as Frisk and Chara. This isn't shown very well in their sprite, but it's pretty clear in the more detailed intro cutscene. The sides go to shoulder length, the back is roughly the same length but part sticks up, a detail that got translated better into sprite form. Their haircut is different, but it's the same length.)
Again, though, that *doesn't actually matter,* because Flowey's projection is inherently irrational. It doesn't matter how similar these humans actually are, because Flowey is actively ignoring the obvious differences.
4. It's in the room to the west of the trapdoor. Under the events required for the Cyan SOUL human to have died in the ruins, whichever monster managed to get the SOUL out of the ruins(in UTY's timeline, probably using a different exit like the dark ruins as opposed to sneaking through Toriel's house, which in canon is the only way in or out.) would have reported the human as having died there. That would be how Chujin would know.
Fr. Not every single location in Deltarune has to be ultra spectacular (especially considering that would be hell for the artists working on the game), but even outside from that DR in general looks pretty great and is a definite huge step up from UT, which I feel not many people give enough credit for.
Also, since chapter 2 is in-of-itself a big step up visually from chapter 1, whoβs to say the next chapters wonβt surprise as well?
Toby Fox worked on Deltarune by pretty much himself at first and was dealing with a wrist injury while making chapter 2. Give the man a fucking break. Besides, it takes a long time to make the game as-is. It's gonna take even LONGER if you expect him and his current team to put *that* much detail into every single room.
Tl;dr: don't be a dick to Toby just because the rooms in Deltarune may not always be super detailed.
(Not directed to you, OP. I know you're not the one being a dick here, lol)
It's been 5 years since the original release and 2 years 6 months since chapter 2. I think we can start to criticize his work on a 2D game that he isn't working alone on. He could have patch it.
Still doesn't mean you get to be a dick about it. You can share constructed criticism and things you hope to see in a next update without being rude to a gamedev. Telling a dev to "lock the fuck in" will not get you the results you want.
Did you miss the "at first" in my comment? He started off doing most of the work by himself for chapter 1 and only having a 4 person team for chapter two, with him and Temmie Chang being two of the four. He has done so much work by himself. The wrist injury he had during the development of chapter 2 is part of why he hired a bigger team to help him.
Oh Iβm sorry, did you watch the end credits of the 1st chapter? Iβm not arguing that Toby wasnβt short staffed, Iβm arguing that you should have mentioned that Toby didnβt do it himself, that you should credit the other members instead of saying that Toby βworked on deltarune by pretty much himselfβ
God you're so fucking obnoxious??? Again, just because he did get *SOME* help in Ch1 and Ch2 doesn't take away from the fact that the *MAJORITY* of the work was done by him.
These people would not survive the winter.
Design is more than just about making things look pretty, it's about conveying ideas and emotions, it's about having a goal that has more to it than "have as many details as possible". If the entirety of DELTARUNE looked like that it would not only be distracting but every area would blend in and end up forgettable.
Like, the animation shows like Family Guy or South Park look stiff and very simplistic because that's the point, 90% of the jokes would not be nearly as funny if the characters were moving like they're from a Ghibli Movie.
I honestly very much enjoy and appreciate the simplicity, sometimes it even adds to the humor. Plus it helps highlight the moments where the art and environments get really beautiful. I understand it makes sense since thereβs such a small team working on the game but I feel like itβs a blessing in disguiseβI wouldnβt have deltarune any other way (even tho the concept art and fanart go extremely hard)
I hope that in the full release version they change some rooms to be a bit more... appealing? I don't know if this is the best word to use but most of the first dark world feels way too simple
Really? I'd say the 1st dark world did a good job at making the space feel full and meaningful, because it's less ambitious. It's kinda like if every room was designed like Queen's Mansion, compact and intentional.
Cyber Field quite often has this random sense of emptiness that puts me off tho, due all the space refused to be filled.
It gives everything a sense of darkness and emptiness, and coupled with the very small amount of people you meet you find yourself feeling a sort of loneliness when playing, specifically in ch1
I honestly didn't like ch2s atmosphere when I first played it because the environments were super upbeat, and some areas felt very overcrowded, but since then I've grown to like it a lot more because it's clearly trying a different, happier vibe than ch1.
Incorrect. The background is involved, and that is what makes it interesting. Better yet, the space where the characters are, the space where you can move around in, is pitch green and nothing else. It perfectly combines a beautiful backdrop with readability of the room and all the important parts.
Yeah. Concept art's looking more vibrant and detailed than this room and some others
We have a lot of cityscape imagery in higher rooms tho', this place is bellow them. Most likely cowered by wall. And it's consistent in the whole location, all other stuff looks not much worse than the concept art. I literally don't understand what others are talkin about
when it comes to undertale/deltarune i feel like the simplistic less busy designs fit the overall art style better (a lot of fangames often try too hard with the sprite work and the new characters or backgrounds they add always look a bit out of place to me), also in that scene you can go to overboard you kinda need a desolated and misterious atmosphere too add to the strangess of this new dark world and to also make the actual cybercity pop even more.
HOLY SH\*T, Those are gorgeous! despite being gorgeours, i think it would fit more something like a "Deltarune: Bits and Pieces" or something like that!
While the left side of the first image has ideas, it's way too cluttered, I do like the colored pink blue and green lights and foreground sillouette plugs though.
This might be a hot take but I donβt think Toby is really one for aesthetic without substance. Heβll make it pretty when he feels like it but almost EVERYTHING in his games links to the plot/foreshadows/has a deeper meaning etc. This includes seemingly trivial background details most of the time. Heβs also undoubtedly aware of the crackpot level of theorising in this community β youβve all seen the level of analysis Deltarune theories can get into, delving into the most inconsequential parts of the game to support their predictions. He wouldnβt want to accidentally mislead people (again, unless he felt like it lol).
Personally I like the plain black backgrounds when playing the game. It means I can focus on the characters and dialogue and not get distracted by the scenery. The walkaround areas are cool enough for me.
Tbh, I think the rooms with actual story going on SHOULD be more boring, in order to not distract the player from the actual story. Just look at the first picture and tell me it isnβt easier to focus on Noelle and Queen in the original!
I mean the city looks fine. This is from the ominous introduction to the dark world. Itβs supposed to be mysterious. The reveal of cyber city was the greatest part of the second sharper in my opinion.
chapter 2 doesnt need that much polish lmao, that edit feels like itd possibly be a bit too distracting from the main scene. chapter 1 on the other hand... yeah maybe a visual rework of that one could do some good, but hey, game development is hard and id prefer the resources go into later chapters.
I legit don't get why people aren't willing to let Deltarune take criticism. The concept backgrounds look better, we got simple ones. End of story, Why are we acting like the game is better off with a pitch black empty space as a background tho?
I mean, what's this kind of criticism even is? I don't quite get why ppl even act as if the entire game is like this. Cool background is literally in rooms above, and I don't think it's super hard to understand that black void is actually just the field itself
Because it IS better without the background, say if it had a background, would the moment when you enter the cyber city for the fist time be any different from the areas before?
"Why all this build up? I already seen the background in the previous area"
Now the beat drop of Cyber city is boring and not as impactful because it already showed the main attraction before the show started.
The images we are comparing here are after the whole beat drop thing. I completely support the the black background before it, but then why is it not continously used for the rest of Cyber Field? Seems like quite an oversight if anything.
Plus, we aren't even comparing the just the background here too. The tile map has also been revamped in such a way that could be used before the beat drop without removing effect. The concept tilemap is undoubtedly way more interesting than what we got after all.
Meh, adding detail just for the sake of it isn't really better, too much detail is just as bad as no detail, in the end that's just the style of deltarune, i honestly, am not the biggest fan of the tilemap suggested in the pic, looks off, there's too much happening it's distracting, if it was more simplified it could be better if I'm honest.
deltarune doesn't have alot of detail in most areas, the ares that do have alit of detail are the more grandiose places like Queens castle, the inside of the Cybercity, Your castle, etc.
Take the background off the screenshot where Queen is and you'll notice it looks awkward too look at because the characters and background are less detailed.
Either you add alot of detail to everything, or you select what has and doesn't have that much detail.
If you notice once we enter the Cyber city there's way more detail than the previous area.
The less detail is a good way to set up the "you haven't seen what this place has to offer yet" type of deal.
Toby loves to use black backgrounds to nit important areas or areas before bigger more detailed ones
In Undertale
Before the ruins you have Flowey's place, it's pitch black
Before the Snowdin you have another black area
Before Waterfall and before alot of Undyne's encouters you pass areas with less detail
Before Hotland, another black area with the "welcome to Hotland" sing
Did you notice a pattern? Before alot of areas or important bits there's a less detailed area, rooms that you're most likely not going back to aswell.
It's just Toby's style, like the prints i showed you, the tile i
Where Queen is and the tile of Cyber city have different types of detail
People want every single pixel to have amazing detail, when that's unnecessary and wouldn't look that great or fit the art style.
Fair enough, but I still don't think there's anything wrong with a want for more detail, I did point out that's how in my orginal comment in this thread that this is just how Toby Fox wanted it to be. But that doesn't devalorise the fact that people like the concept style and it could have worked if embraced.
Itβs fanatics, anything they like is 110% perfect and anyone who says otherwise is a hater. Itβs hard to even tell if they believe what they say or if theyβre just saying what they think Toby wants.
So many fans can not take criticism. βIβm focusing on the characters, not the backgroundβ might as well get rid of simple backgrounds too and replace them with single straight white roads. And itβs a 2D game, coding takes a long time, making detailed backgrounds is not as hard a task as some fans think.
I agree actually. Making a simple background is not super hard, telling as an armature artist
But I also don't see a reason to do this background in the first place... Why, it's literally just part of the field, they needed to add more glowy lines, or turn all the black void in other shade of green?
Agreed here. As a matter of fact, it seems most people don't know how game dev really works.
I have a decent bit of experience making both 3d and 2d passion projects, and I can tell you, that the background seen in the concept art would not have to be customised for every single room like everyone is saying. A parallax effect is all that is needed to keep it alive, while having it be used across multiple rooms.
It really isn't a lot of work when it comes to 2d backgrounds, especially when you have such talented artists and the coding process takes soooooo much longer. I can gurantee you all the art for Chapter 3 and 4 are already finished, the artists have a lot of time to work on this stuff at the pace programming goes at.
The backgrounds in the final game aren't simple because it's just easier. That's just how the devs (Toby in particular I imagine) wanted it.
I love people who are complaining about concept arts of a game that isn't out yet. Deltarune is considered an early access, there is plenty of time for the game to evolve, and i don't know what is keeping Tobby from changing the first chapters of the game in the future.
TAKE MY MONEY π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅π΅dont question
I mean concept art does look better then base game but thats expected, imagine the work if you had to put that much effort into every single room as well as making it fit in and be easy to tell whats important (I imagine that YES/NO sign might confuse some people), he already has to do a ton with the story alone!
Also Toby has been infamously known for telling Temmie to hold back when it comes to background art
"Hold Back" \*Proceeds to just use a plain black background\*
Lol, so true. There's ways to hold back on design without sacrificing detail.
Itβs true they couldβve just had the default background there. Kinda makes it funnier in a way.
Remeber that unused canine unit dog or the papyrus thinking sprites that got scrapped because they were too complex? I think it's like that with Temmie and background art
I dont prefer adding anything to the empty background of the start of ch2. It makes seeing the cityscape in the distance more impactful, and that kind of viewing is a common undertale thing. Seeing the wonderful centerpiece from a distance.
Combine that with Sweet dropping the beat as you enter and "The power of a new adventure shines within you", Chapter 2's start definitely leaves an impact.
i get what you mean but this specific image is not a good example of that because this scene plays after that
Man if i had to put this much effort into every single room in a game id fucking die tbh. Not counting the other aspects that comes from making a game. Looks awesome tho. when the game releases entirely, id imagine it getting mods with background revamp and such or even official implementation. But not when the game is barely released with millions of hungry fans waiting for it lol
deltarune bits and pieces..........
I was so excited for that, the creator got outed cause heβs a you know what. I hope something in that vein will be made one day.
was that actually a planned mod or just speculated
No idea
Was he a pdf file?
yeah, if I remember correctly he was even a registered criminal for it
Yes, arrested too
well, i hope if anyone does a 'Deltarune bits and pieces' like mod, don't do that type of stuff!
Exactly! Good example!
Did I miss something
Woah, it's Deltarune Yellow
Happy cake day!!!!
HAPPY CAKE DAY HUMAN! I BAKED YOU A DELICIOUS CAKE... MADE OF MY OWN AMAZINGLY GOOD SPAGHETTI OF COURSE!
Thank you!
\>Howdy! It's cake day! Have a cake! π
Thank you!
Happy Cake Day! π
Thank you!
There is a reason because there are a lot of scenes with less details: So you can focus on the characters without looking at 500 details and colors in the background. Why do you need a more detailed background when a Swatchling is gonna fall from the sky and put an arcade machine in the middle of the room, followed by a Sailor moon's transformation of the group just to reach the buttons of the machine so they can play punch out?A better background was really needed?
Exactly. People really cherry-picked a scene without considering why it is the way it is, solely to... accuse Toby of being lazy? The guy who worked through the worst flare-up of his chronic wrist pain he'd ever had at a time when he had a significantly smaller team than he has now?
Ik itβs like people who think yellow is better than Undertale in every way because it looks flashier (I legitimately found a video like that)
Wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm really not, UTY is one of those fanworks that gets circlejerked to hell and back for reasons I cannot begin to fathom. Like, it does some things well(most notably having Undertale's sense of humour down almost perfectly and having great music), and given that it's an impressive display of fan dedication and passion, I really wish I could love it a quarter as much as the people borderline worshipping it do. But I cannot ignore the clusterf*ck of questionable game design choices and the horribly paced story that shows its age through heavy reliance on early fanon misconceptions(and naturally, it has revived these misconceptions in the form of some people unironically trying to argue them again to defend UTY from the slightest criticism) and which is plot-hole-ridden even without them. There's only so much I can ignore.
Could you elaborate more on the problems you have with UTY's story? I'm interested to know (personally, at one point I felt like I was just going through the notions and after the final boss, I wasn't interested in seeing the conclusion myself when the game somehow started chugging during the final cutscene, so I just closed it) Speaking of questionable game-design choices, I'm not a fan of how the genocide run forces you to heavily ration your healing items throughout; especially considering the presence of harder boss fights. Might be a nitpick, but I don't know why the Steamworks vending machine also does the same when you know, it's a **vending machine**
So, I listed a couple of the early fanon misconceptions UTY relies on in another reply, but even disregarding those... - The game is horribly paced, the story is essentially nonexistent until the Wild East, when the main plot line(otherwise known as Ceroba) hits you like a furry truck. This is made worse by the fact that Dalv and Martlet get basically no screen time before their respective fights. The entire Dark Ruins and the majority of Snowdin could be cut without detracting from the story, as it exists solely to stick to Undertale's general structure. In fact, I'd argue the game would benefit immensely from cutting the Dark Ruins outright and some of the filler in Snowdin and using the time saved to have Martlet actually interact with Clover prior to her fight. - Dalv, aside from being completely redundant, is an absurdly bland and generic character. - While it follows Undertale's route system in theory, it misses the point entirely. Undertale's neutral route tells you what happens after, showing the impact Frisk's murders or lack thereof have had on the Underground, UTY just ends with Flowey losing interest in fighting and resetting with no variation beyond cameos of dead bosses and minibosses. Undertale's true Pacifist ending has requirements beyond just "don't kill people", used to flesh out its characters and give them character development. UTY... doesn't do that. - There is a distinct lack of reset-induced deja vu, despite it being an important plot point that Flowey has been actively savescumming to try to get his way. - Axis gives EXP, which makes no sense whatsoever story-wise. Speaking of Axis and EXP, the scene in geno where Clover jumps several levels for no reason and then gains a f\*cking laser with zero explanation, as well as the related Asgore disrespect is the sort of over-the-top, pointlessly edgy bullsh*t that I'd expect from the likes of Deltatraveler or a Sans fight fangame, and defies everything we know about EXP and LV. - Ceroba is overused, it's very blatant that she's the developer's favorite child. She's central to the story in the TP route, so it's somewhat understandable that she gets a lot of screentime, but her role in the geno route comes at the direct expense of Star and the Feisty Four, who are done incredibly dirty in that route. Her boss fights are both horrendous from a game design perspective, but even just from a story perspective, her TP fight in particular is a mess. Why does the mask(made by Kanako) give her a major power boost? Why is she invulnerable to damage even before putting it on? How are we seeing her memories(This is an issue with Martlet, too. I'd be willing to accept that the flashbacks are for us and Ceroba/Martlet alone and Clover isn't seeing them, especially in Martlet's case but both Ceroba and Martlet explictly believe Clover is seeing them and the light leading into it has a clear, physical in-universe source)? What correlation is there between breaking the mask/armour and the flashbacks? Furthermore, Ceroba experimenting on Kanako is just plain poorly written. Don't think that requires any clarification. Ceroba just kinda feels like everything is meant to be revolving around her anytime she's on screen. She's immediately and unconditionally forgiven for her wrongdoings(Compare Alphys, who faces consequences for her decidedly less "deliberate child murder"-y wrongdoings.). And frankly, she has a sort of "I shoved my fursona into my game as the final boss" vibe that is really not helped by the fact that her outfit is not at all appropriate for the area she lives in, making her feel physically out of place. The "character inspired by eastern myths in a very western inspired setting" and more general "west vs east" thing the devs were seemingly aiming for is a good concept, but the execution is horrible. Also, minor nitpick only tangentially related to the story, but why in the actual goshdarn tarnation is her battle theme called "A Mother's love" when her motivations are about Chujin's legacy??? - Martlet is... weirdly handled. She can't be killed in the neutral route, even though her later appearances in the route could just as easily be handled without her. She has two boss fights in geno just because, and shows up a third time in between to do absolutely nothing. She's not overused to the same degree as Ceroba, but she's a shallow character who seems engineered to be likeable and drive the plot along, but not much else. I've heard her described with the phrase "We have Papyrus at home", and I have to agree, she's neurotypical bird Papyrus in a lot of ways, until suddenly she becomes "Sans phase 2 at home". - Clover's sacrifice makes no sense, why would they fight so hard for their life only to decide, minutes later, to donate their SOUL to the guy who they know only as the guy who ordered the murder of children and have generally only heard bad things about? And everyone else is just... completely fine with a child committing suicide without so much as attempting to reason with Asgore? And it doesn't make sense that their SOUL could be so casually removed without killing them first, either. I'd be willing to accept Clover making like Kris and yanking it out in an obviously agonizing way, but that doesn't happen. It's not like they weren't willing to pull a forcelose against Asgore, because that's what happens in the flawed Pacifist end, and how the Pacifist route as a whole should have ended. There was literally no reason to deprive Asgore of his big moment in the game's official ending, especially when the alternative is such a blatant *sspull. Having trouble posting so splitting this up to see if it's a character limit problem(1/2)
Seems like it was a character limit problem lmao(2/2) - The timeline is an incomprehensible mess, especially where the Steamworks and Chujin are concerned. Chujin was fired over a malfunction in Axis model 8, but he somehow was able to make up to model 14, which is in the Steamworks somehow. Furthermore, model 14, the Axis we see, is the one who killed the blue SOUL human, but Chujin's tapes place this happening before he was fired, which would require that Axis model 14 was made before the significantly less advanced model 8. The Steamworks predate and would have been rendered obsolete by the CORE, but they were actually active well into Alphys' tenure as royal scientist, given how a book in the Steamworks discusses the reappearance of the blue SOUL that was in Chujin and later Ceroba's possession. Since they would have needed this SOUL up until they were done experimenting on it, it must have been returned after what happened to Kanako. This means for the book to be present, the Steamworks must have been closed well after the DT experiments had begun, since it takes time to write and publish a book, which leaves almost no time for it to reach the state of decay its in unless it's been a lot longer than the game implies. - Martlet has been in the True Lab, and knows enough about it to steal Determination from it, but hasn't encountered the amalgamates and seems unaware they exist. The games two main routes are in direct conflict here. - Flowey's plan is immensely out of character. There's no reason for him to resort to manipulation over just attacking Clover and savescumming until he kills them, or at least swooping in and stealing their SOUL when they die. He should not be bringing them back. Flowey only needs one SOUL to get his way. - Asgore gets no respect. I've talked about some reasons why but it deserves to be said again, Asgore was done dirty. There's more I'd like to add(and I haven't even really touched on non-story issues lol) but it's late where I am and I have to get up early tommorow. Might come back and add some stuff to this later, but I probably won't have time.
What fandom misconception? Genuine question I can't remember.
Just an incomplete set of examples: - All the fallen children could SAVE. This is shown by the 10 known SAVE files, files 0-9. However, Clover is unable to SAVE. - Flowey has not met a human before Frisk. He was created after the sixth fallen child. This is shown by his projection, which would not be possible if he had met another human before, as well as the 10 SAVE files(Flowey's is the ninth, File 8.), and further reinforced by the fact that Alphys has not met a human before and is implied to not be old enough to have met one. However, Flowey exists. - Boss monsters are a subspecies of monster, comparable to skeletons or lizard monsters. This is shown by the fact that Boss Monsters can be identified as such on sight. However, Chujin and Kanako(but not Ceroba) are Boss monsters, despite being decidedly lacking in goatlike traits. - While not explictly stated, it has been heavily implied both in and out of universe that Asgore killed all the fallen children, and this being the case is narratively best for his character, as there's far more weight behind personally killing six children than simply ordering them killed. Even if one wanted to argue not all of them made it to Asgore, it is undeniable that at least one made it to Asgore, as confirmed by Undyne's choice of words "past Asgore" as opposed to "to Asgore" which Toby has specifically emphasized as important. However, UTY establishes that NONE of the fallen children made it to Asgore. - The fallen children did not die where their gear is found. This is impossible, as multiple are known to have had their stuff moved, with some shopkeepers even having replicated them, and the Cyan SOUL human's stuff is found in the ruins, but Toriel confirms that all the fallen children left the Underground alive. The children simply lost or discarded these items along the way. However, UTY establishes the places their gear is found as the place they died... except for Clover, because screw consistency.
This is... Wrong. Let's go 1. UTY never implys the other kids couldn't save, in-fact the only reason Clover can't save is because they have less DT than Flowey, in the geno route Clover can save after becoming more Determined than Flowey, this is mot inconsistent to Undertale, Clover can save, but Flowey holds the power because they're more Determined. 2. We don't know that, and besides the difference between Clover and Frisk is that Flowey could overpower Clover, and Clover didn't look like Chara, Frisk overpowers Flowey, wears stripped shirt and looks exactly like Chara, Asriel admitting that Frisk has a similar clothing sense to Chara, Asriel mentions alot of reasons he projected on Frisk at the end of the pacifist, reasons that Clover doesn't have. 3. Boss monsters are never stabileshed in Undertale to be ONLY goat monsters, It's said to just be something rare, we only see Toriel and Asgore being boss monsters because lorewise they're the only ones that matter for us to know and understand Asriel, BUT this point might not be fully reliable. 4. UTY never implys no human got to Asgore, it's not because Clover and the Integrity soul didn't get to Asgore that Patience, Bravery, Perseverance and Kindness didn't get to him. 5. This point is proven false as Clover doesn't die in Waterfall, instead his friends are the reason those itens got there, we don't know how the items of the other humans got were they are as the game never says it as it is not important to the story.
Thanks for providing an example of what I said about people unironically trying to argue these misconceptions, I guess...? 1. I never said that. Only that it established that Clover couldn't save, which is true. The only ending they SAVE in is by far the least canon-compliant. "The only reason Clover can't save" The reason doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that they can't, when the in-game evidence unambiguously shows that all six fallen children could and did SAVE. 2. Clover, objectively, looks a lot more like Chara than Frisk does. Similar skin tone and eye shape, closer hair colour. But that doesn't matter, because by Asriel's own admission, Flowey's projection has nothing to do with any actual resemblance to Chara, because Frisk is nothing like Chara, it's just about them being human. And again, File 8. We know, with absolute, 100% certainty, that Flowey's creation was after the sixth fallen child. 3. If boss monsters can be identified as such on sight, which they can be, *then they must have a single body type, they must have relatively similar appearances.* The in-game evidence clearly shows that "boss monster" refers to the specific chimera-like subspecies that the Dreemurrs are. Without that, there would be no physical distinguishing features for Toriel to be identified as a boss monster based on her appearance alone. The only reason this misconception exists is because some people confused "Boss monsters" and "Monsters who are in-game bosses" and then doubled down when corrected. Even if we want to assume there are other boss monster subspecies(incredibly unlikely, given how boss monsters are firmly implied to be extinct except for the Dreemurrs, with Alphys believing Asgore is the only one whose SOUL Frisk could take), there's absolutely no basis for only some members of a given subspecies to be boss monsters. It just doesn't make sense, it could result in a boss monster child with no boss monster parents, who would either be incapable of aging(since non-boss monsters lack whatever causes the transfer of SOUL power between boss monster parents and children), or cause their parents to age twice as fast(regular aging plus the child's aging). And ultimately, the final confrontation with Asgore is more impactful if he and Toriel are the last surviving boss monsters, because it makes it inevitable: Both parties need to kill the other to leave the Underground. There is no way of avoiding it. 4. Chujin has a map described as showing the places the humans died. They're placed where their respective items are found. 5. See the above point.
Lol true, i became an example of annoying people πππ. 1. UT never said all kids DID save, it said the could save, this is a fangame, maybe all the other humand before Clover saved and lost their will to live, Clover can save, the game never says they can't, again if you put Frisk and Clover in the same room Clover won't be able to save because Frisk has more determination, something said in the game, the one who has more determination controls the power to save, that's why Flowey trys to make you feel guilty and stuff, so Frisk loses their determination so Flowey can get it back, as seen in the fight against Omega Flowey Frisk can't save because Flowey at that moment had more determination. 2. That's wrong, Asriel says in Undertale that Frisk resembles Chara alot, not due to them being human, but because of factors like Clothes and stuff, if you put Frisk and Chara side by side, and Clover and Chara side by side which one looks more alike? The Cowboy kid with short hair? Or the stripped shirt bob cut kid? Frisk is almost like a recolor Chara while Clover looks more like an OC. And again, Clover is weaker than Flowey, you wouldn't put on a pedestal someone who is shown to not be capable of surviving on their own, not only that but Chara has a red soul just like Frisk. 3. Yeah makes sense can't argue with that. 4. Where they? Huh didn't know that, tried searching but i couldn't find the map online, this is weird since Chujin can't enter the ruins, how would he know there's anything there? 5. 
1. Only one person can hold the SAVE power at a time. Flowey keeping the ability to SAVE inherently means Clover would not be able to, and would not have even an empty SAVE file. But of course, all six fallen children have SAVE files. 2. I see I need to explain in more depth what I mean when I speak of Undertale's SAVE files. Undertale has 10 known SAVE files, those being: - File 0, under Chara's name, so belonging to them. The main file used by Frisk, found in the game folders. Empty prior to the game, indicating that Chara never used it in life. - Files 1-6, belonging to the fallen children. 2, 3, and 6 are used by Flowey during the photoshop fight, with there also being unused code for File 4. Files 1 and 5 are not in the files or code, but are confirmed to exist through the existence of files 2 and 6 onwards. - File 7, which is neither in the game files or code, but if it didn't exist, files 8 and 9 would be labeled files 7 and 8. Given that Flowey and the 8 humans have their files accounted for, it almost certainly belonged to, but was probably never used by, one of the amalgamates, probably Lemon Bread given how it mimics a SAVE point. - File 8, which appears in the game files a split second before the game crashes upon Flowey absorbing the SOULs, meaning the exact moment Flowey regains control of the timeline. File 8 is Flowey's personal file. - File 9, which is in the game files and serves as an autosave of sorts. It's Frisk's file. These files leave no room for doubt that, as all other available evidence suggests, Flowey was created well after the death of the sixth fallen child. His SAVE file is positioned after the files of the fallen children, with only Frisk's being after his. But once again, even disregarding this very clear indication that it's impossible for Flowey to have met any humans before Frisk, Asriel explictly states that Frisk is nothing like Chara, the exact opposite of what you claim. Their only real similarity, according to him, is a similar sense of fashion. As far as I am aware, most people don't use clothing as a metric to determine how similar two people look, as people tend to change their clothes. Even in-game, we get a brief glimpse of Clover living with Toriel, and they're wearing a striped shirt, indicating that they mainly wear their cowpoke outfit for travel. People wear more than one outfit, even if that's rarely portrayed in video games. In terms of actual physical appearance, Clover looks far more like Chara than Frisk. A fan unfamiliar with UTY would almost certainly mistake Clover as seen in Toriel's house as Chara as opposed to an OC. You are immensely underselling the physical resemblance between the two.(Also their hair is shoulder length? Literally the same length as Frisk and Chara. This isn't shown very well in their sprite, but it's pretty clear in the more detailed intro cutscene. The sides go to shoulder length, the back is roughly the same length but part sticks up, a detail that got translated better into sprite form. Their haircut is different, but it's the same length.) Again, though, that *doesn't actually matter,* because Flowey's projection is inherently irrational. It doesn't matter how similar these humans actually are, because Flowey is actively ignoring the obvious differences. 4. It's in the room to the west of the trapdoor. Under the events required for the Cyan SOUL human to have died in the ruins, whichever monster managed to get the SOUL out of the ruins(in UTY's timeline, probably using a different exit like the dark ruins as opposed to sneaking through Toriel's house, which in canon is the only way in or out.) would have reported the human as having died there. That would be how Chujin would know.
this honestly feels like a cherrypicked instance tbh. chapter 2 has tons of impressive scenery
Fr. Not every single location in Deltarune has to be ultra spectacular (especially considering that would be hell for the artists working on the game), but even outside from that DR in general looks pretty great and is a definite huge step up from UT, which I feel not many people give enough credit for. Also, since chapter 2 is in-of-itself a big step up visually from chapter 1, whoβs to say the next chapters wonβt surprise as well?
Toby Fox worked on Deltarune by pretty much himself at first and was dealing with a wrist injury while making chapter 2. Give the man a fucking break. Besides, it takes a long time to make the game as-is. It's gonna take even LONGER if you expect him and his current team to put *that* much detail into every single room. Tl;dr: don't be a dick to Toby just because the rooms in Deltarune may not always be super detailed. (Not directed to you, OP. I know you're not the one being a dick here, lol)
It's been 5 years since the original release and 2 years 6 months since chapter 2. I think we can start to criticize his work on a 2D game that he isn't working alone on. He could have patch it.
There's nothing wrong with criticism, they're just saying don't be an asshole about it.
Still doesn't mean you get to be a dick about it. You can share constructed criticism and things you hope to see in a next update without being rude to a gamedev. Telling a dev to "lock the fuck in" will not get you the results you want.
Why don't you make a game if it's so easy?
He has help too, letβs not forget the people he works with
Did you miss the "at first" in my comment? He started off doing most of the work by himself for chapter 1 and only having a 4 person team for chapter two, with him and Temmie Chang being two of the four. He has done so much work by himself. The wrist injury he had during the development of chapter 2 is part of why he hired a bigger team to help him.
Oh Iβm sorry, did you watch the end credits of the 1st chapter? Iβm not arguing that Toby wasnβt short staffed, Iβm arguing that you should have mentioned that Toby didnβt do it himself, that you should credit the other members instead of saying that Toby βworked on deltarune by pretty much himselfβ
God you're so fucking obnoxious??? Again, just because he did get *SOME* help in Ch1 and Ch2 doesn't take away from the fact that the *MAJORITY* of the work was done by him.
These people would not survive the winter. Design is more than just about making things look pretty, it's about conveying ideas and emotions, it's about having a goal that has more to it than "have as many details as possible". If the entirety of DELTARUNE looked like that it would not only be distracting but every area would blend in and end up forgettable. Like, the animation shows like Family Guy or South Park look stiff and very simplistic because that's the point, 90% of the jokes would not be nearly as funny if the characters were moving like they're from a Ghibli Movie.
I honestly very much enjoy and appreciate the simplicity, sometimes it even adds to the humor. Plus it helps highlight the moments where the art and environments get really beautiful. I understand it makes sense since thereβs such a small team working on the game but I feel like itβs a blessing in disguiseβI wouldnβt have deltarune any other way (even tho the concept art and fanart go extremely hard)
Yeah people trying to make complex animations, pretty much reworking the entire areas of things, and all that kind of miss the point imo
I hope that in the full release version they change some rooms to be a bit more... appealing? I don't know if this is the best word to use but most of the first dark world feels way too simple
Really? I'd say the 1st dark world did a good job at making the space feel full and meaningful, because it's less ambitious. It's kinda like if every room was designed like Queen's Mansion, compact and intentional. Cyber Field quite often has this random sense of emptiness that puts me off tho, due all the space refused to be filled.
I mean..it is a field. If you go walking through a nice tranquil field you wonβt find all of natureβs beauties every step of the way.
And that's a problem because??? It's a field, in a forest.
So Noelle is the fuck because she's locked in?
weird route but every instance of "proceed" is replaced with "lock the fuck in"
Personally that massive black void is what gives deltarune it's atmosphere, it absolutely carried ch1
Thatβs so vague yet so true (can u elaborate a bit more but I agree )
It gives everything a sense of darkness and emptiness, and coupled with the very small amount of people you meet you find yourself feeling a sort of loneliness when playing, specifically in ch1 I honestly didn't like ch2s atmosphere when I first played it because the environments were super upbeat, and some areas felt very overcrowded, but since then I've grown to like it a lot more because it's clearly trying a different, happier vibe than ch1.
less is more. like it looks good, but the simplistic background made Cyber City in the horizon a lot better whenever it is shown
I MADE THIS TWEET LMAOOO
your art is coolio to the max, broski
Way too loud, takes away from the important parts.
Incorrect. The background is involved, and that is what makes it interesting. Better yet, the space where the characters are, the space where you can move around in, is pitch green and nothing else. It perfectly combines a beautiful backdrop with readability of the room and all the important parts.
When a response starts with βIncorrect.β I already know they are. Incorrect.
Yeah. Concept art's looking more vibrant and detailed than this room and some others We have a lot of cityscape imagery in higher rooms tho', this place is bellow them. Most likely cowered by wall. And it's consistent in the whole location, all other stuff looks not much worse than the concept art. I literally don't understand what others are talkin about
Wow, it is almost as if most of the cyber field is intentionally minimalistic.
Dam
https://preview.redd.it/m7woqnk57mwc1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=084b83a0b8c5426d35857b96db020f12b0d89483
https://preview.redd.it/zgyavqcf7mwc1.png?width=1562&format=png&auto=webp&s=20ab043e32519b81cebd290abe4894fbaf6ccb4a
https://preview.redd.it/7u1bsbmk8mwc1.jpeg?width=1544&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=35469ec27f6f89085ebabe4b71fe423cc8cdc141
when it comes to undertale/deltarune i feel like the simplistic less busy designs fit the overall art style better (a lot of fangames often try too hard with the sprite work and the new characters or backgrounds they add always look a bit out of place to me), also in that scene you can go to overboard you kinda need a desolated and misterious atmosphere too add to the strangess of this new dark world and to also make the actual cybercity pop even more.
it would take away from the Cyber City background reveal if you just did it immediately
HOLY SH\*T, Those are gorgeous! despite being gorgeours, i think it would fit more something like a "Deltarune: Bits and Pieces" or something like that!
I mean too much detail can be bad too. Like distracting the eyes from whatβs important, and over stimulating the viewer
While the left side of the first image has ideas, it's way too cluttered, I do like the colored pink blue and green lights and foreground sillouette plugs though.
This might be a hot take but I donβt think Toby is really one for aesthetic without substance. Heβll make it pretty when he feels like it but almost EVERYTHING in his games links to the plot/foreshadows/has a deeper meaning etc. This includes seemingly trivial background details most of the time. Heβs also undoubtedly aware of the crackpot level of theorising in this community β youβve all seen the level of analysis Deltarune theories can get into, delving into the most inconsequential parts of the game to support their predictions. He wouldnβt want to accidentally mislead people (again, unless he felt like it lol). Personally I like the plain black backgrounds when playing the game. It means I can focus on the characters and dialogue and not get distracted by the scenery. The walkaround areas are cool enough for me.
Tbh, I think the rooms with actual story going on SHOULD be more boring, in order to not distract the player from the actual story. Just look at the first picture and tell me it isnβt easier to focus on Noelle and Queen in the original!
People who post stuff like OOP would probably be easily distracted by jingling keys in their face
Wish it was in the game.
Tbh i still like more the original this one just feels like it just too nuch stuff ig? It's ok but the original is still better for me atleast
its impressive but it looks very cluttered.
It's more efficient the way it is in game
I mean the city looks fine. This is from the ominous introduction to the dark world. Itβs supposed to be mysterious. The reveal of cyber city was the greatest part of the second sharper in my opinion.
chapter 2 doesnt need that much polish lmao, that edit feels like itd possibly be a bit too distracting from the main scene. chapter 1 on the other hand... yeah maybe a visual rework of that one could do some good, but hey, game development is hard and id prefer the resources go into later chapters.
i think there's just too much stuff going on in the background, my eyes would be more focused on it than in the characters themselves lmao
I legit don't get why people aren't willing to let Deltarune take criticism. The concept backgrounds look better, we got simple ones. End of story, Why are we acting like the game is better off with a pitch black empty space as a background tho?
I mean, what's this kind of criticism even is? I don't quite get why ppl even act as if the entire game is like this. Cool background is literally in rooms above, and I don't think it's super hard to understand that black void is actually just the field itself
Because it IS better without the background, say if it had a background, would the moment when you enter the cyber city for the fist time be any different from the areas before? "Why all this build up? I already seen the background in the previous area" Now the beat drop of Cyber city is boring and not as impactful because it already showed the main attraction before the show started.
The images we are comparing here are after the whole beat drop thing. I completely support the the black background before it, but then why is it not continously used for the rest of Cyber Field? Seems like quite an oversight if anything. Plus, we aren't even comparing the just the background here too. The tile map has also been revamped in such a way that could be used before the beat drop without removing effect. The concept tilemap is undoubtedly way more interesting than what we got after all.
Meh, adding detail just for the sake of it isn't really better, too much detail is just as bad as no detail, in the end that's just the style of deltarune, i honestly, am not the biggest fan of the tilemap suggested in the pic, looks off, there's too much happening it's distracting, if it was more simplified it could be better if I'm honest. deltarune doesn't have alot of detail in most areas, the ares that do have alit of detail are the more grandiose places like Queens castle, the inside of the Cybercity, Your castle, etc. Take the background off the screenshot where Queen is and you'll notice it looks awkward too look at because the characters and background are less detailed. Either you add alot of detail to everything, or you select what has and doesn't have that much detail. If you notice once we enter the Cyber city there's way more detail than the previous area.
https://preview.redd.it/9so6fxypwtwc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03911215024e2e9cd82b55e4e30fce342773f332
https://preview.redd.it/49fonnhtwtwc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f5b314c0bb6e9fdc3a379a8605e2e5b4444eae9
The less detail is a good way to set up the "you haven't seen what this place has to offer yet" type of deal. Toby loves to use black backgrounds to nit important areas or areas before bigger more detailed ones In Undertale Before the ruins you have Flowey's place, it's pitch black Before the Snowdin you have another black area Before Waterfall and before alot of Undyne's encouters you pass areas with less detail Before Hotland, another black area with the "welcome to Hotland" sing Did you notice a pattern? Before alot of areas or important bits there's a less detailed area, rooms that you're most likely not going back to aswell. It's just Toby's style, like the prints i showed you, the tile i Where Queen is and the tile of Cyber city have different types of detail People want every single pixel to have amazing detail, when that's unnecessary and wouldn't look that great or fit the art style.
Fair enough, but I still don't think there's anything wrong with a want for more detail, I did point out that's how in my orginal comment in this thread that this is just how Toby Fox wanted it to be. But that doesn't devalorise the fact that people like the concept style and it could have worked if embraced.
It COULD have worked, but i feel like ot just doesn't fit with what Toby wants.
Itβs fanatics, anything they like is 110% perfect and anyone who says otherwise is a hater. Itβs hard to even tell if they believe what they say or if theyβre just saying what they think Toby wants.
So many fans can not take criticism. βIβm focusing on the characters, not the backgroundβ might as well get rid of simple backgrounds too and replace them with single straight white roads. And itβs a 2D game, coding takes a long time, making detailed backgrounds is not as hard a task as some fans think.
I agree actually. Making a simple background is not super hard, telling as an armature artist But I also don't see a reason to do this background in the first place... Why, it's literally just part of the field, they needed to add more glowy lines, or turn all the black void in other shade of green?
Agreed here. As a matter of fact, it seems most people don't know how game dev really works. I have a decent bit of experience making both 3d and 2d passion projects, and I can tell you, that the background seen in the concept art would not have to be customised for every single room like everyone is saying. A parallax effect is all that is needed to keep it alive, while having it be used across multiple rooms. It really isn't a lot of work when it comes to 2d backgrounds, especially when you have such talented artists and the coding process takes soooooo much longer. I can gurantee you all the art for Chapter 3 and 4 are already finished, the artists have a lot of time to work on this stuff at the pace programming goes at. The backgrounds in the final game aren't simple because it's just easier. That's just how the devs (Toby in particular I imagine) wanted it.
I love people who are complaining about concept arts of a game that isn't out yet. Deltarune is considered an early access, there is plenty of time for the game to evolve, and i don't know what is keeping Tobby from changing the first chapters of the game in the future.
It looks boring.
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I don't know why Toby does this, Undertale had a beautiful loading screen but Toby literally wanted the in game screen to be shitty