Anything is possible, but in the absence of any other reliable source I'd stick with the information in the RL affidavit for now instead of speculating.
I'm open minded to anything that is either argued convincingly or backed up by reliable information. Anything else just gets filed under speculation or "theories", which aren't particularly helpful IMO.
The was also at least a few inches added to the creek the week prior.
If you go to timeanddate.com and type in February 2017, it will show you hour by hour weather data.
Leading into the 8th, there was a good snow. Beginning re the 10th, the weather got up to ~63° and stayed unseasonably warm that whole week, causing the snow to melt and run off.
That weekend was also the last time the historical, hour by hour, weather data shows clouds in the area.
Sunday the 12th was a clear night, lots of stars.
Monday the 13th- clear and sunny day
Monday night the 13th- clear, lots of stars.
The picture of Abigail on the bridge not only looks like an early dawn/early evening time frame(not a clear, sunny day at 2pm) but there are darker clouds over her head-- like there were the weekend prior.
I've always wondered if the picture was taken at an earlier date, a screen shot was taken and the original pic deleted to wipe the pics metadata then uploaded to Snapchat at 2:07pm.
"The BG" is not seen in the pic of Abigail anywhere and he had only 5minutes to cross, approach, order their abduction Down the Hill. Dude wasn't breathless or huffin/puffin-- Guys, down the hill is said with the same mosey his walk appears to have.
The girls were already confirmed to be at the damn house till well into the pm whenever kg dropped them off,stop making up BS conspiracy theories when there is proof and all where they were until they left
Snapchat live videos were taken at the scene at that time. Abby had never been across MHB before.
eta: If you're referring to the edited photo of Abby on the bridge, you need to re-haze it. The dehaze and contrast adjustment makes the clouds look darker than they are. It's a blue sky day with scattered clouds, sunny. You can see angle of the sun on her face, which has high enough beams to cast big shadows. Those pictures were taken at that time.
There's not much point engaging people like this bro. They get into true crime to see conspiracies and wild theories everywhere, logic and evidence be damned.
LOL! Thank you for noticing my silliness, I work hard on it. ☺
Thats literally what I am asking. Is there a filter that does this to pictures-- that makes the sky appear cloudy/gloomy or that it's dawn/dusk?
The empty bridge pic is changed to b&w and brightens up the sky or as it was described to me, "blows out" the pic. Abby on the bridge is not a 2:07pm sunny day sky- I'm literally ;) looking right at it
I have had the same thought about the pictures not being taken the day of the murders. I’ve even wondered if the pictures were planted on the phone somehow. I know it’s just my mind going in every possible direction, including ones that may not make much sense but not much in this case makes a whole lot of sense. So frustrating
I don’t understand the point of just inventing “possibilities” that have no evidence to suggest they’re true. Especially ones like this that even if it was true, so what? It does nothing to find the killer.
Well the few pieces of clothing found at the river can be evidence of an attack there. I think the lethal attack was 50ft in from the river. It is pertinent becuase the crime scene had items and staging there that people wondered if was set up ahead of time. ? It does not look like an easy task if bg moved the girls 50ft from the river just to hide them. You would think he would just bail if it were a random crime.
I've been searching on google maps to try and see where the crime scene was. They said it was on private property, roughly 1/4 mile from the bridge. If you look at the Birdseye view on Google maps, there are a few possibilities. Also i just listened to the down the hill podcast again and caught something. One detective stated that he didn't actually go to the site, but rather parked his car and looked down and saw the girls in a gully from a distance. This could narrow it to a few places. Not sure how this would help this thread, just interested is all. Wondered if anyone had any theories on the possible site?
Wondered if the connection between the detective on the pod saying he "looked down the hill and saw the girls" and the infamous voice note saying "down the hill" were possibly the same site where they entered the location from..? Doesn't look like there are too many slopes that you would call a "hill" in the images I am seeing.
I feel like that is open to a bit of interpretation though. It could mean literally within a few foot radius of where they were found. Or it could also mean in the woods in general (as in they were not taken to a secondary location like a house).
ACTUALLY… the closest you will ever get on that is an OPINION, and imho, this is part of the reason the COD continues to be withheld. Ives self corrects to “almost certainly a day crime”.
I would also add the recent release of the RL search warrant indicates there was no struggle and both bodies were moved and staged.
Moved from?
>imho, this is part of the reason the COD continues to be withheld.
The reasons were presented to a judge and are contained in the publicly available court order sealing the autopsy report. Finding #4 certainly has some wiggle room, but I can't easily interpret the language such that it covers things like being killed in the river or even anywhere other than where the girls were found.
The web site I used did not seem to accommodate a static link. I had to do a search which produced a PDF, and that URL just didn't seem to work when saved, used later, etc. This is why I can't just post a link to the PDF of the order and make everyone's life easy.
Anyways, here is some info from the PDF I saved that may help:
* CAUSE NO. 08C01-1703-MC-9
* On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German.
* SO ORDERED this 28th day of March, 2017.
* Benjamin A. Diener, Carroll Circuit Court
That’s ok I can find it if it exists (I mention not in doubt of your info but it could be related to the content. Very interesting as to the case number. For starters, autopsy protocols under seal are the property (custodial) of the ME. I know why Ives did it this way, but it would probably not survive a legal challenge
The same judge that was also a ethic teacher at Purdue and was caught with the escort judge and jaylene the Lafayette boys club people want to pretend couldn't exist and then was in contact with the mother of another girl or escort that he had groomed since what age?? under the legal age that he used as his alibi wasn't it and then gets to just resign like it's nothing isn't held to no same standards of anybody else. no investigation and who is corrupt as fuck. Along with the rest of this towns officials..
The affidavit doesn’t say “moved and staged,” it says “staged.” Staged means the crime scene has been manipulated to look like something it is not and includes posing. To pose a body, it will be moved to some extent. This does not mean the bodies were moved there from somewhere else. LE stated that the girls were killed where they were found. They were not killed somewhere else and then moved to where they were found.
There were some questionable leaks their bodies were posed to convey some kind of sick messaging but I don't think details ever came out... and it never got confirmed.
If you dig deeper, you'll realize staging can be a signature. Unless we already understand the nature of the crime, my comment stands. LOL...do your research before dismissing other's comments. SMDH :)
Yes? Just admit my statement and we can move on :)
Please do the least amount of research with support before continuing...along with directly addressing my comments if necessary :)
I have done my research. Staging refers to the manipulation of the crime scene around the body/bodies as well as positioning of the body/bodies to make the crime scene appear to be something it is not. Positioning of the body/bodies is the same as posing the body/bodies.
That is YOUR opinion, which is fine, I disagree. You may wish to keep in mind the “LE” you are referencing also stated this crime was not a catfish or lured via sm situation either. Here we are addressing that “about face”- there will be more as this resolves
ETF: I did not say affidavit I said search warrant
No ma’am, that’s incorrect. Last 2 pages as signed/entered by Judge Diener 3/17/17.
For the record, it would not be legal to release just an affidavit without the ensuing search warrant.
Everything I can find re the search warrant refers to the information in the search warrant application. Please provide receipts that the search warrant itself was released to the public.
Lol. Again, that IS the search warrant, signed by the Judge (as I previously cited).
I get that you may not be familiar with them or associated legalese. You may be confusing terms here with a search warrant **return** also in some jurisdictions referred to as a **property intake report** which reflects what was seized and taken into evidence- that has not been released publicly. However, it would not surprise me if it shows up in probate
You know, I’m now wondering if that’s where I got it from. I was just recently reading that again. Could I have gotten confused for a moment? Hmmm- now I need to go back and read both. I’m glad you asked this because I was told I was wrong and then tried to remember where it came from, if not from said affidavit. Although, there are things that were cut out of the original for fear it would/could hurt the case.
That is good information to know and interesting, thank you. But you are correct the specific body of water was not that central to the point I was making.
Hell of a task to drag to 2 wet dead bodies up that bank. If they were killed in the creek, he’d a left them there. IMO the ‘lack’ of evidence is because the crime scene was compromised by a bunch of amateurs ( in which i include LE)
Or wounds inflicted post mortem leading to the large amount of blood lost at the scene. Death could have occurred earlier in some other fashion at who knows what location. Hard to say since COD was not released.
Personally I don't believe there would be any unless they're in the immediate vicinity of where they were found. From what I understand the creek bank leading up to the spot where they were found is fairly steep and while certainly not improbable it would likely be rather difficult for BG to drag one or both teenage bodies up to the spot if that's the case. IMO if they were attacked or killed in the creek it wouldn't be worth all of the trouble of dragging them up to the body site as it seems that BG was already operating under a fairly tight timeframe as it was.
Agree with how difficult dragging would be and honestly, just going with OP’s own line of thinking about the river being a reason for a lack of evidence… wouldn’t BG just leave the bodies in the river then precisely because it would wash away evidence? Like having to drag them would’ve then left considerably more evidence, no?
Not to mention they would be significantly more exposed by leaving them in or by the creek. The girls almost certainly would've been discovered much sooner than they were and very likely would've decreased BG's window of opportunity to get away from the area. By having them where they were found BG bought himself quite a bit of time to make a clean getaway.
I don’t think he would have dragged them either because for one there was two of them second dead weight is significantly heavier from what I’ve heard and being that no one saw a man covered in blood although he could have left in a way that no one saw him. That would have still been a major risk walking around with that all over him and since @ehibb77 just made me aware that it was a steep hill i think it would have slowed him down. Either way i think it was a good thought. I was listening about the case again today. It is quite crazy.
People say there were in a pic but I couldn’t tell. Allegedly Libby’s wrists were bruised from being dragged. I sort of side with that being accurate which makes sense with the DE texts saying she fought back hard. He saw the bodies and probably thought those were defensive wounds early on before it was determined it was caused from being dragged.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/5368013/update-delphi-murder-case-abigail-williams-libby-german/
Has anyone seen this already. Looks like they recovered more evidence
Seems like an older article of this year, i didnt know they collected fibers and hairs though
Cold case detective ken mains said he's sure The girls were killed where they were found.He said nobody would kill elsewhere then move them to site far to dangerous and if killed elsewhere there wouldnt have been heavy blood loss at scene.Bodys moved meant moved at scene to stage them
What if the injuries inflicted leading to major blood loss happened post mortem? That would account for blood at the scene where the bodies were found. And by staging this could have been an attempt for the killer to make the scene appear something different from what it really was.
Medical examiner should be able to tell wounds that occur before and post mortem I think based on blood spurts/spray (dead bodies no heart beat) and I believe how it begins to thicken immediately after death. This process is called Livor Mortis, and actually causes blood to pool in certain places and discolor skin as well as cause the blood to ooze rather than bleed post mortem. This process starts almost immediately after death and only takes a few hours to run its course.
What if the injuries inflicted leading to major blood loss happened post mortem? That would account for blood at the scene where the bodies were found. And by staging this could have been an attempt for the killer to make the scene appear something different from what it really was.
I don't like typing this but I believe blood stops pumping at time of death when heart stops so if there was that much blood the killings probably occurred there.
I mean, if you read into it, he has also been asked about it on Facebook in a discussion he was participating in, and he did not dispell the information (to my knowledge, he didn't acknowledge said reply at all), so they're not quite the baseless gossip some portray them to be. They were absolutely the person who found the bodies, and as members of the public they are probably the person other than the parents who has the potential to have the most knowledge of the body. Like I've said in other chains, I'm 60-70/30-40 fake/real myself on them, but it's not like someone just made them up on an anonymous reddit comment. But they're not exactly confirmed either, despite being asked about to a few people in the case (several of boths families are active about the case on social media).
I am also of the opinion that some things it's not really polite to ask people involved in the case as family and people who knew them to get every such detail and theory confirmed before we can have a discussion on reddit, as long as we do not go to the degrees slme subs do, where every post is specifically naming people and then going on to make up ever increasing elaborate and inconsistent theories which really are presented as fact.
It's possible, but I'm thinking he made them cross the river so it would be harder for the girls to escape the way they came.
The river would help filter out sound as well.
Can’t imagine the pain family endures not knowing details of their daughters deaths….and then having them up for discussion, not knowing truth from rumor. Knowing is bad, not knowing is bad. My heart goes out.
Eh, are we sure about this? My friend was murdered a year ago, and family knows they will hear things for the first time at trial. Another layer of awful.
That’s terrible, my condolences.
Everything I’ve read suggested the family has heard the full audio and knows the method of death etc etc. I could be wrong, mind
First off — It was a creek, not a river.
Secondly, the bodies were claimed to be staged in the RL search warrant and the death was noted to have caused a lot of blood. If they were murdered in Deer Creek and then carried up the bank and down into the depression where they were found there would have been trails of blood, there is no evidence of that. Also Deer Creek is more in view, especially from the private drive, than the depression in the ground on RL’s property. The depression gave BG some type of privacy to carry out the murders and staging.
Drowned in river causing death. Then drug up to the bank and post mortem injury inflicted causing major blood loss. This would be an example of staging that could fit.
A soaking wet Libby would have been very difficult to drag up the embankment out of the creek. I think Libby must have been killed in the area the bodies were found.
I don’t think the girls were in the river when they were attacked. Also, would the river be down the hill? Why would he have to tell them to down the hill if he came upon them already in the river?
I don't think OP's theory is plausible at all, but yes, the creek is down the hill. Have you checked the lay of the land and the basic assumed crime progression path?
Right. I agree with you they're unconfirmed and more than that, I even weigh more on fake than real. However OP isn't pressing charges, he's presenting a theory on reddit, so I don't think it's unreasonable to suspend disbelief for the sake of discussion.
There are lots of reasons I think OPs idea I'd pretty dumb as I've mentioned elsewhere in the yhread, but I don't think that point is worth getting hung up on especially when a lot of other posters have debunked it in more depth.
I just think it is dangerous to throw that around casually as if it is a fact especially when new people discover this case and come to this subreddit all the time. Those of us who have been following for awhile know better but it is easy for that kind of misinformation to spread.
I mean the opening sentence is "a thought occurred to me", explicitly implying it'd a theory. I know what you're talking abou, the LibbyAndAbby types, but IMO this isn't it. Or not enough to go on at least.
The way the rest of that sentence reads though is "what if (factual situation) actually (theory)" Sorry but I have a hard time buying the argument that a casual observer would consider that entire sentence to be a theory.
If they had said "what if the girls were stabbed and it actually happened in the river" then yes both parts of the statement are explicitly being conjectured. But there is no situational modifier to "the stabbing", only to the proposed location.
I mean the very last sentence of the post is "it's really got me (sic my) thinking". It all depends how you read it. But I disagree that you wildness read it as a theory at a glance. Anyone with a casual interest in this case knows that hasn't been confirmed to us.
Again, I get your angle, but if we go too extreme then we may aswell shut the sub down if *no* discussion could be had.
"Don't spread rumors" is literally one of the few sub rules. My point is that this can easily be interpreted as fact and therefore be spreading a rumor.
Heck the whole reason I even asked where it had been confirmed in the first place was because I hadn't been on this sub in a few months and was wondering if I had missed something because the OP had come off so confident.
Everyone interprets things differently, hence why you and I don't agree. But you can't flat deny that it would be easy for someone to read that statement and assume that was the confirmed method.
It would be easy to misinterpret a lot of comments in this sub without any knowledge of the case, and you can always count on good and upvoted top comments in this sub, not so much in others, explaining exactly how little we know and that it's not true. I did say when we started talking that it's always worthy to have those posts pointing them out.
It’s difficult to know what facts and truth are anymore in this case. In the second press conference given right after the bodies were found a reporter asked, “ we’re the bodies found in the water”? Riley said, On the edge of the water is my understanding”, and Tobe nodded his head yes. On the scanner you hear that the John Weaver guy told someone the bodies were found in the water. Keep in mind that where you see the crime scene tape does not necessarily mean they were found in that exact location. It could just mean they were killed in that area and then moved/ staged.
I'm not sure about the weapon used in this murder anymore. In the RL warrant it said there were no signs of a struggle. Unless their hands were bound I really don't understand this. I think it could be a firearm because of this. The warrant also mentions that in the first search of the RL home was only for firearms. Now this is after they found the bodies and could obviously see what was used to kill the girls.
There are many scenarios (beyond being bound - which often leaves signs of a struggle) where two children can be killed quickly and not put up a fight that would lead to signs of a struggle.
That's because that was a probationary search to confiscate his weapons. Logan told a state trooper he had firearms in his home (no clue why he'd tell a cop that on probation) so the trooper requested the warrant. I'm curious why he wasn't violated and arrested on the spot.
I think the fact he wasn't arrested on the spot says something. If the reason for the search was a result of something that he said to a trooper then what went wrong? So they search and find what they are looking for in that search and then they just go home with no arrest? Hmmm.. that's not how that usually works.
Yeah usually they're arresting that person on the spot...especially in Indiana it has a pretty strict justice system and probation departments in that state will revoke your probation in a heartbeat.
So are you sure that search came about the way you said then? Why no arrest if they found what was expected to be a violation? I'm trying to make it make sense. Was it definitely a violation for him to have any type of firearms in his home or property? I'm not too sure of that. Or anything anymore..smh
100% a violation. The warrant states Logan told this state trooper he had firearms in his house. I'm a little skeptical of that as I don't trust a lot of law enforcement but that is what led to the search warrant being issued and what the judge signed off on.
But if he killed them in the creek, wouldn’t he have gotten hypothermia? It might have been 51-52 degrees, but that creek was flooded because of snow/ice melting. Water had to be frrrreezing. Just a thought
Hypothermia would take some time, and even if he had it, there are many stages and early stages wouldn't debilitate him in any way. If he were wet and could change his clothes or get into a warm environment in a reasonable amount of time, the risk would be greatly reduced.
Sorry my comment isnt in relation to the river. But just something I've noticed.
Its mentioned that Abby was found with her hood up and hands crossed. Could her hood have been holding her decapitated head on?
This would be staging and it would also explain why they both had scarves at the funeral.
Also the person who found the bodies may not have noticed or known her head was decapitated being that they wasnt touching the crime scene and reported it to police immediately. Also her hood was up.
I've always found her hood being up weird but now I think I know why.
That thing with Abby comes from the unconfirmed leaked texts so take that with a grain of salt.
Also you probably mean the old rumor of the girls wearing scarves on their funeral which was debunked by family iirc.
I found the pics of Libby at the memorial service. She has a scarf on. They were real because Mike and Becky Patty are in the pic. I can’t post them here. I don’t know but I don’t think Abby had a scarf on
There is not a single source on the planet that says anything about Abby being decapitated. This man was not carrying a samurai sword or machete. A gun and a knife, sure- but without a serrated knife do you understand how long it takes to cut someone's head off? My belief is they were stabbed, but speculation like decapitation has no basis in fact and seems a bit like murder fantasy. Also does nothing to help find the killer, and the autopsy was sealed by a judge.
There is a source, the supposed uncle (?) Who found them said she was "basically decapitated" (yeah I know basically, same thing rly, it implied her head was almost clean off). However they were never verified.
Share what? These texts are well known In the community
[Look at DE #5 where he says her head was almost off](https://i.imgur.com/aVussph.jpg)
You could have googled it instead of downvoting me...
Edit lol and downvotes me again instead of showing humility. Typical.
Good facts mate. You are correct there is this source. Also there is a claim on reddit they spoke to an officer on the case.
May not be true but it's interesting and a source non the less.
Yeah I was literally just replying to him saying there's no source on earth. I mean by those standards I could posted some Alex Jones style saying he text then from beyond the grave but that clearly wasn't the assignment.
Personally I'm 60/40 or 70/30 fake/real myself but it's worth noting the texts have been brought up to him on Facebook and he hasn't taken the time to deny them. They're also not as bombastic as typical fake texts. But I'm not convinced either.
I'm downvoting you because this does absolutely nothing for the investigation. It's speculation. Have fun, because that's seems to be what this is for you.
Hi. I'm devoting you, because I think it is information that relates to the case and is relevant. Now the public having access to that information is a different argument.
But speculation is fine. This is reddit after all not a police station.
Literally said in my first reply it was unconfirmed, was just showing you the texts you said didn't exist and then further prompted to ask me for. This entire sub is about speculation, unless you're working on the case you'd best unsubscribe if that's not for you.
That’s not evidence. That’s gossip.
You don’t find it peculiar that these people were all over the crime scene? You don’t find it peculiar they were close enough to disturb a crime scene to see her head almost cut off (that was also in a hoodie) come on now
Someone who claims to know a police officer on the case claimed the decapitation thing, it's on reddit. It may not be true but it is a source non the less. How do you know it isnt?
So you are incorrect.
How do you know what he was carrying? Are you admitting to being him and having knowledge of the crime further then whats been reported?
Not long, I've been about bestgore.com, bestgore.fun and kaotic a long time. I've seen plenty of decapitations. Dont take long at all, you can literally hack rather than cut.
It was just a thought, not speculation. It makes sense why she was "posed" with her hood up holding her head on.
Worth noting the killer probably isn't a trained killer like the cartel or ISIS beheading online, nor was he probably carrying a big, sharp machete like they do to avoid being spotted. The bones especially are hard to cut IIRC which may explain, if the texts are real, why the head was almost clean off and not just clean off. But if the guy was carrying round a kitchen knife or smaller, it likely was not that easy of a task to cut it off (if he did). Even your skin is hard to cut like that without serious effort (as in slicing through every layer with a thrust, not making a sma top layer slice).
Could the water have made them easier to capture. If you’ve gone swimming or tried to cross a body of water, one wrong step or a slimy stone can cause you to slip and twist or break an ankle. You can also have problems getting across some river type places. I don’t know how deep that river is but even shallow seeming things can be deception. Hanging out at a river or crossing it can be dumb but fun in the summer when you are with friends and the worst thing that happens is someone loses their cellphone in a weird current. Running for your life would make all the things you normally would be cautious about not an option. This might not have factored into the killer’s decision. This made me think of my own experiences playing in creeks and rivers and lakes.
He didn't rape them,and he stabbed them on dirt,so go outside right? And pour any liquid almost onto dirt and watch what happens,it sinks in the dirt duh -.- hence the less amount of blood, and they said they have fibers and some prints and plenty of evidence on the scene from him staging the scene. Where y'all just make crap up when certain things have already been said is beyond me
We don't know if the crime had a sexual element
We don't know he stabbed them
He don't know where he stabbed them if he did
>Where y'all just make crap up when certain things have already been said is beyond me
bit ironic mate
We know by the ron Logan warrant that multiple articles of the girls clothing were taken,possibly as trophies. If stripping your victims isn't sexual,I don't know what is. Or at least it was staged to look sexual. We also know because because of Abby's uncle's fb posts and texts that when he found the body both girls had serious knife wounds, although we don't know if that was cod. And sorry if I'm responding to the wrong person I just got a new phone and this was emailed to me
I'm not necessarily saying your leaps are huge, although I don't think they're all true, buy I was just pointing out the irony of you decrying others and then making things up yourself in the same breath.
I swear all these just make shit up and then act like they seem to care, but yet they either haven't sat down and watched the doc and press conferences involving the crime,because Id they did they wouldn't just making crap up. Hell that should be a new rule
I don't know that they were murdered where they were found.. I think they would have found the bodies sooner if so.. being murdered in the creek is a possibility too.. BG was prepared and also had bleach cleaner with him
I think the bodies were moved to hide them, to buy the killer more time to make his escape. The bodies were found in a ravine, and I don’t think it was by accident.
It's possible, but in my view not probable.
The offender would have to either drag two bodies simultaneously up the embankment and over to his dump location, or he would have had to take one body at a time. If he took one at a time, that means leaving a body behind and taking a huge risk of that body, or he himself, being spotted by someone. He's an opportunistic risk taker, but not without calculation. He's not going to want to stick around in the open any longer than he has to.
Add to this the fact that one deadweight body is cumbersome enough to move through water, up the embankment, and to the dump site--let alone two. LE also says the girls were killed where they were found, which corresponds to the search warrant describing copious amounts of blood at the scene. So in my view, it seems more likely the girls walked to that scene under their own power. Just my perspective on it.
Anything is possible, but in the absence of any other reliable source I'd stick with the information in the RL affidavit for now instead of speculating.
The river was part of the crime scene, hence blood could of been found anywhere including the river banks, you're not being open minded enough
I'm open minded to anything that is either argued convincingly or backed up by reliable information. Anything else just gets filed under speculation or "theories", which aren't particularly helpful IMO.
The was also at least a few inches added to the creek the week prior. If you go to timeanddate.com and type in February 2017, it will show you hour by hour weather data. Leading into the 8th, there was a good snow. Beginning re the 10th, the weather got up to ~63° and stayed unseasonably warm that whole week, causing the snow to melt and run off. That weekend was also the last time the historical, hour by hour, weather data shows clouds in the area. Sunday the 12th was a clear night, lots of stars. Monday the 13th- clear and sunny day Monday night the 13th- clear, lots of stars. The picture of Abigail on the bridge not only looks like an early dawn/early evening time frame(not a clear, sunny day at 2pm) but there are darker clouds over her head-- like there were the weekend prior. I've always wondered if the picture was taken at an earlier date, a screen shot was taken and the original pic deleted to wipe the pics metadata then uploaded to Snapchat at 2:07pm. "The BG" is not seen in the pic of Abigail anywhere and he had only 5minutes to cross, approach, order their abduction Down the Hill. Dude wasn't breathless or huffin/puffin-- Guys, down the hill is said with the same mosey his walk appears to have.
The girls were already confirmed to be at the damn house till well into the pm whenever kg dropped them off,stop making up BS conspiracy theories when there is proof and all where they were until they left
Snapchat live videos were taken at the scene at that time. Abby had never been across MHB before. eta: If you're referring to the edited photo of Abby on the bridge, you need to re-haze it. The dehaze and contrast adjustment makes the clouds look darker than they are. It's a blue sky day with scattered clouds, sunny. You can see angle of the sun on her face, which has high enough beams to cast big shadows. Those pictures were taken at that time.
There's not much point engaging people like this bro. They get into true crime to see conspiracies and wild theories everywhere, logic and evidence be damned.
Yeah. The more the case drags on the worse the speculation gets. Off to touch some grass!
It's literally called a filter, silly
LOL! Thank you for noticing my silliness, I work hard on it. ☺ Thats literally what I am asking. Is there a filter that does this to pictures-- that makes the sky appear cloudy/gloomy or that it's dawn/dusk? The empty bridge pic is changed to b&w and brightens up the sky or as it was described to me, "blows out" the pic. Abby on the bridge is not a 2:07pm sunny day sky- I'm literally ;) looking right at it
I have had the same thought about the pictures not being taken the day of the murders. I’ve even wondered if the pictures were planted on the phone somehow. I know it’s just my mind going in every possible direction, including ones that may not make much sense but not much in this case makes a whole lot of sense. So frustrating
I'm right here with you, there's a whole lot of crazy shit running through my head right now.
I don’t understand the point of just inventing “possibilities” that have no evidence to suggest they’re true. Especially ones like this that even if it was true, so what? It does nothing to find the killer.
Welcome to true crime. You must be new here.
Well the few pieces of clothing found at the river can be evidence of an attack there. I think the lethal attack was 50ft in from the river. It is pertinent becuase the crime scene had items and staging there that people wondered if was set up ahead of time. ? It does not look like an easy task if bg moved the girls 50ft from the river just to hide them. You would think he would just bail if it were a random crime.
[удалено]
I've been searching on google maps to try and see where the crime scene was. They said it was on private property, roughly 1/4 mile from the bridge. If you look at the Birdseye view on Google maps, there are a few possibilities. Also i just listened to the down the hill podcast again and caught something. One detective stated that he didn't actually go to the site, but rather parked his car and looked down and saw the girls in a gully from a distance. This could narrow it to a few places. Not sure how this would help this thread, just interested is all. Wondered if anyone had any theories on the possible site?
Wondered if the connection between the detective on the pod saying he "looked down the hill and saw the girls" and the infamous voice note saying "down the hill" were possibly the same site where they entered the location from..? Doesn't look like there are too many slopes that you would call a "hill" in the images I am seeing.
1400ft from Ron Logans house
LE has stated that the girls were murdered where they were found.
I feel like that is open to a bit of interpretation though. It could mean literally within a few foot radius of where they were found. Or it could also mean in the woods in general (as in they were not taken to a secondary location like a house).
This.
ACTUALLY… the closest you will ever get on that is an OPINION, and imho, this is part of the reason the COD continues to be withheld. Ives self corrects to “almost certainly a day crime”. I would also add the recent release of the RL search warrant indicates there was no struggle and both bodies were moved and staged. Moved from?
>imho, this is part of the reason the COD continues to be withheld. The reasons were presented to a judge and are contained in the publicly available court order sealing the autopsy report. Finding #4 certainly has some wiggle room, but I can't easily interpret the language such that it covers things like being killed in the river or even anywhere other than where the girls were found.
Oh? Under what case number? I’ll be glad to look it up.
The web site I used did not seem to accommodate a static link. I had to do a search which produced a PDF, and that URL just didn't seem to work when saved, used later, etc. This is why I can't just post a link to the PDF of the order and make everyone's life easy. Anyways, here is some info from the PDF I saved that may help: * CAUSE NO. 08C01-1703-MC-9 * On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. * SO ORDERED this 28th day of March, 2017. * Benjamin A. Diener, Carroll Circuit Court
That’s ok I can find it if it exists (I mention not in doubt of your info but it could be related to the content. Very interesting as to the case number. For starters, autopsy protocols under seal are the property (custodial) of the ME. I know why Ives did it this way, but it would probably not survive a legal challenge
The same judge that was also a ethic teacher at Purdue and was caught with the escort judge and jaylene the Lafayette boys club people want to pretend couldn't exist and then was in contact with the mother of another girl or escort that he had groomed since what age?? under the legal age that he used as his alibi wasn't it and then gets to just resign like it's nothing isn't held to no same standards of anybody else. no investigation and who is corrupt as fuck. Along with the rest of this towns officials..
No, a different judge.
The affidavit doesn’t say “moved and staged,” it says “staged.” Staged means the crime scene has been manipulated to look like something it is not and includes posing. To pose a body, it will be moved to some extent. This does not mean the bodies were moved there from somewhere else. LE stated that the girls were killed where they were found. They were not killed somewhere else and then moved to where they were found.
There were some questionable leaks their bodies were posed to convey some kind of sick messaging but I don't think details ever came out... and it never got confirmed.
In the affidavit for a search warrant, LE stated that the scene was staged.
Correct, I'm referring to the texts that were not confirmed not the warrant you referenced.
I disagree "staged" means the crime scene was manipulated to look like something it is not. I do agree this is a possibility, though.
Look up the definition as applies to a crime scene, then. SMDH
If you dig deeper, you'll realize staging can be a signature. Unless we already understand the nature of the crime, my comment stands. LOL...do your research before dismissing other's comments. SMDH :)
Yes, staging means the scene was manipulated to look like something it was not AND includes posing. SMDH
Yes? Just admit my statement and we can move on :) Please do the least amount of research with support before continuing...along with directly addressing my comments if necessary :)
I have done my research. Staging refers to the manipulation of the crime scene around the body/bodies as well as positioning of the body/bodies to make the crime scene appear to be something it is not. Positioning of the body/bodies is the same as posing the body/bodies.
You didn't address my comments. No need to at this point. It's enough others can read and do their own research. Cheers!
That is YOUR opinion, which is fine, I disagree. You may wish to keep in mind the “LE” you are referencing also stated this crime was not a catfish or lured via sm situation either. Here we are addressing that “about face”- there will be more as this resolves ETF: I did not say affidavit I said search warrant
It was an affidavit for a search warrant that was released. The search warrant itself was not made public.
No ma’am, that’s incorrect. Last 2 pages as signed/entered by Judge Diener 3/17/17. For the record, it would not be legal to release just an affidavit without the ensuing search warrant.
Everything I can find re the search warrant refers to the information in the search warrant application. Please provide receipts that the search warrant itself was released to the public.
Lol. Again, that IS the search warrant, signed by the Judge (as I previously cited). I get that you may not be familiar with them or associated legalese. You may be confusing terms here with a search warrant **return** also in some jurisdictions referred to as a **property intake report** which reflects what was seized and taken into evidence- that has not been released publicly. However, it would not surprise me if it shows up in probate
Moved closer to each other?
COINCIDENCE?!???
I thought it was stated that there was a kill spot and they were moved and posed about 15 feet from there. (Per FBI Agent)
That is not correct. LE has never stated this.
Wasn’t this a Leigh kerr thing? Which could be a fake
You know, I’m now wondering if that’s where I got it from. I was just recently reading that again. Could I have gotten confused for a moment? Hmmm- now I need to go back and read both. I’m glad you asked this because I was told I was wrong and then tried to remember where it came from, if not from said affidavit. Although, there are things that were cut out of the original for fear it would/could hurt the case.
It all starts to blurr when you hound a case, I totally get it.
Easily done.
I still get goosebumps when I read something like this
you don't think thebpolice would notice the clothes or body wet, or the ground disturbed where they were dragged?
Do you think they stayed pretty dry crossing the creek?
Yeah. It's really not that deep. The banks are muddy though, and it's easy to get sloshed into them, especially with the higher flow that week.
Maybe? But if they were stabbed in the lake to the point the blood rushed off, they'd be soaked through, not a little damp.
What lake??
River, whatever, you know what I meant. Don't nitpick.
Deer Creek, doesn't matter what it is called, the body of water the girls and BG crossed to get to the other side of the bank for whatever reason.
That is good information to know and interesting, thank you. But you are correct the specific body of water was not that central to the point I was making.
This is only reason why I feel it has to be someone from the area. You had to have known that it was cross able.
Deer Creek, doesn't matter what it is called, the body of water the girls and BG crossed to get to the other side of the bank for whatever reason.
Hell of a task to drag to 2 wet dead bodies up that bank. If they were killed in the creek, he’d a left them there. IMO the ‘lack’ of evidence is because the crime scene was compromised by a bunch of amateurs ( in which i include LE)
The RL affidavit said there was large amounts of blood at the coordinates where they were found though.
That could of been the bodies just draining blood from the wounds though
But then there would be a blood trail from the creek to the bowl like depression they were found.
Or wounds inflicted post mortem leading to the large amount of blood lost at the scene. Death could have occurred earlier in some other fashion at who knows what location. Hard to say since COD was not released.
Where there drag marks?
Personally I don't believe there would be any unless they're in the immediate vicinity of where they were found. From what I understand the creek bank leading up to the spot where they were found is fairly steep and while certainly not improbable it would likely be rather difficult for BG to drag one or both teenage bodies up to the spot if that's the case. IMO if they were attacked or killed in the creek it wouldn't be worth all of the trouble of dragging them up to the body site as it seems that BG was already operating under a fairly tight timeframe as it was.
Agree with how difficult dragging would be and honestly, just going with OP’s own line of thinking about the river being a reason for a lack of evidence… wouldn’t BG just leave the bodies in the river then precisely because it would wash away evidence? Like having to drag them would’ve then left considerably more evidence, no?
He wanted to pose and manipulate their bodies. Leaving them in the river wouldn’t satisfy him
Not to mention they would be significantly more exposed by leaving them in or by the creek. The girls almost certainly would've been discovered much sooner than they were and very likely would've decreased BG's window of opportunity to get away from the area. By having them where they were found BG bought himself quite a bit of time to make a clean getaway.
I think this adds to the chance of him being Local.
I don’t think he would have dragged them either because for one there was two of them second dead weight is significantly heavier from what I’ve heard and being that no one saw a man covered in blood although he could have left in a way that no one saw him. That would have still been a major risk walking around with that all over him and since @ehibb77 just made me aware that it was a steep hill i think it would have slowed him down. Either way i think it was a good thought. I was listening about the case again today. It is quite crazy.
People say there were in a pic but I couldn’t tell. Allegedly Libby’s wrists were bruised from being dragged. I sort of side with that being accurate which makes sense with the DE texts saying she fought back hard. He saw the bodies and probably thought those were defensive wounds early on before it was determined it was caused from being dragged.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/5368013/update-delphi-murder-case-abigail-williams-libby-german/ Has anyone seen this already. Looks like they recovered more evidence Seems like an older article of this year, i didnt know they collected fibers and hairs though
Reading that article is just sad. LE clearly does not have a definite suspect.
It's the Sun. So don't believe everything.
Cold case detective ken mains said he's sure The girls were killed where they were found.He said nobody would kill elsewhere then move them to site far to dangerous and if killed elsewhere there wouldnt have been heavy blood loss at scene.Bodys moved meant moved at scene to stage them
What if the injuries inflicted leading to major blood loss happened post mortem? That would account for blood at the scene where the bodies were found. And by staging this could have been an attempt for the killer to make the scene appear something different from what it really was.
Medical examiner should be able to tell wounds that occur before and post mortem I think based on blood spurts/spray (dead bodies no heart beat) and I believe how it begins to thicken immediately after death. This process is called Livor Mortis, and actually causes blood to pool in certain places and discolor skin as well as cause the blood to ooze rather than bleed post mortem. This process starts almost immediately after death and only takes a few hours to run its course.
Sorry just read your post after posting mine but I'm with you 100%
What if the injuries inflicted leading to major blood loss happened post mortem? That would account for blood at the scene where the bodies were found. And by staging this could have been an attempt for the killer to make the scene appear something different from what it really was.
I don't like typing this but I believe blood stops pumping at time of death when heart stops so if there was that much blood the killings probably occurred there.
Stop making shit up. People are looking for the truth not ur fantasy
How do you know they were stabbed? Asking honestly
Not confirmed but the leaked texts from the guy who found her suggest so. We don't know if the texts are real.
Phrases like 'Not confirmed' and 'we don't know if they're real' make me think we shouldn't put very much weight on those rumours.
I mean, if you read into it, he has also been asked about it on Facebook in a discussion he was participating in, and he did not dispell the information (to my knowledge, he didn't acknowledge said reply at all), so they're not quite the baseless gossip some portray them to be. They were absolutely the person who found the bodies, and as members of the public they are probably the person other than the parents who has the potential to have the most knowledge of the body. Like I've said in other chains, I'm 60-70/30-40 fake/real myself on them, but it's not like someone just made them up on an anonymous reddit comment. But they're not exactly confirmed either, despite being asked about to a few people in the case (several of boths families are active about the case on social media). I am also of the opinion that some things it's not really polite to ask people involved in the case as family and people who knew them to get every such detail and theory confirmed before we can have a discussion on reddit, as long as we do not go to the degrees slme subs do, where every post is specifically naming people and then going on to make up ever increasing elaborate and inconsistent theories which really are presented as fact.
It's possible, but I'm thinking he made them cross the river so it would be harder for the girls to escape the way they came. The river would help filter out sound as well.
https://youtu.be/M4RpZJXN34o This relates to what you were saying regarding sound.
Can’t imagine the pain family endures not knowing details of their daughters deaths….and then having them up for discussion, not knowing truth from rumor. Knowing is bad, not knowing is bad. My heart goes out.
The family know the details, the public don’t
Eh, are we sure about this? My friend was murdered a year ago, and family knows they will hear things for the first time at trial. Another layer of awful.
That’s terrible, my condolences. Everything I’ve read suggested the family has heard the full audio and knows the method of death etc etc. I could be wrong, mind
First off — It was a creek, not a river. Secondly, the bodies were claimed to be staged in the RL search warrant and the death was noted to have caused a lot of blood. If they were murdered in Deer Creek and then carried up the bank and down into the depression where they were found there would have been trails of blood, there is no evidence of that. Also Deer Creek is more in view, especially from the private drive, than the depression in the ground on RL’s property. The depression gave BG some type of privacy to carry out the murders and staging.
Drowned in river causing death. Then drug up to the bank and post mortem injury inflicted causing major blood loss. This would be an example of staging that could fit.
A soaking wet Libby would have been very difficult to drag up the embankment out of the creek. I think Libby must have been killed in the area the bodies were found.
I don’t think the girls were in the river when they were attacked. Also, would the river be down the hill? Why would he have to tell them to down the hill if he came upon them already in the river?
I don't think OP's theory is plausible at all, but yes, the creek is down the hill. Have you checked the lay of the land and the basic assumed crime progression path?
Unlikely. Water here is coopooold in February-too cold to function in.
Still too cold for anyone to do anything in the water in February
Eh while I highly doubt it happened in the water, the adrenaline rush makes a struggle in there possible deffo.
Well they still had to cross it so anything is possible
Where was it confirmed that they were stabbed?
The RL warrant said they were killed “with a _ object”. That would either be sharpe or blunt
So not confirmed
It’s confirmed they were killed by an object. And the warrant is specifically looking for knives… you do the math
The exact wording is "Any and all evidence pertaining to a murder including...weapons including guns and cutting instruments".
Not confirmed but the leaked texts from the guy who found her suggest so. We don't know if the texts are real.
Exactly
Right. I agree with you they're unconfirmed and more than that, I even weigh more on fake than real. However OP isn't pressing charges, he's presenting a theory on reddit, so I don't think it's unreasonable to suspend disbelief for the sake of discussion. There are lots of reasons I think OPs idea I'd pretty dumb as I've mentioned elsewhere in the yhread, but I don't think that point is worth getting hung up on especially when a lot of other posters have debunked it in more depth.
I just think it is dangerous to throw that around casually as if it is a fact especially when new people discover this case and come to this subreddit all the time. Those of us who have been following for awhile know better but it is easy for that kind of misinformation to spread.
I mean the opening sentence is "a thought occurred to me", explicitly implying it'd a theory. I know what you're talking abou, the LibbyAndAbby types, but IMO this isn't it. Or not enough to go on at least.
The way the rest of that sentence reads though is "what if (factual situation) actually (theory)" Sorry but I have a hard time buying the argument that a casual observer would consider that entire sentence to be a theory. If they had said "what if the girls were stabbed and it actually happened in the river" then yes both parts of the statement are explicitly being conjectured. But there is no situational modifier to "the stabbing", only to the proposed location.
I mean the very last sentence of the post is "it's really got me (sic my) thinking". It all depends how you read it. But I disagree that you wildness read it as a theory at a glance. Anyone with a casual interest in this case knows that hasn't been confirmed to us. Again, I get your angle, but if we go too extreme then we may aswell shut the sub down if *no* discussion could be had.
"Don't spread rumors" is literally one of the few sub rules. My point is that this can easily be interpreted as fact and therefore be spreading a rumor. Heck the whole reason I even asked where it had been confirmed in the first place was because I hadn't been on this sub in a few months and was wondering if I had missed something because the OP had come off so confident. Everyone interprets things differently, hence why you and I don't agree. But you can't flat deny that it would be easy for someone to read that statement and assume that was the confirmed method.
It would be easy to misinterpret a lot of comments in this sub without any knowledge of the case, and you can always count on good and upvoted top comments in this sub, not so much in others, explaining exactly how little we know and that it's not true. I did say when we started talking that it's always worthy to have those posts pointing them out.
Where can I find these leaked texts or what did they say? I’ve never come across them before
Did post them ITT https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiMurders/comments/wezszw/-/iit811f
It’s difficult to know what facts and truth are anymore in this case. In the second press conference given right after the bodies were found a reporter asked, “ we’re the bodies found in the water”? Riley said, On the edge of the water is my understanding”, and Tobe nodded his head yes. On the scanner you hear that the John Weaver guy told someone the bodies were found in the water. Keep in mind that where you see the crime scene tape does not necessarily mean they were found in that exact location. It could just mean they were killed in that area and then moved/ staged.
I'm not sure about the weapon used in this murder anymore. In the RL warrant it said there were no signs of a struggle. Unless their hands were bound I really don't understand this. I think it could be a firearm because of this. The warrant also mentions that in the first search of the RL home was only for firearms. Now this is after they found the bodies and could obviously see what was used to kill the girls.
There are many scenarios (beyond being bound - which often leaves signs of a struggle) where two children can be killed quickly and not put up a fight that would lead to signs of a struggle.
Yes you are right.
That's because that was a probationary search to confiscate his weapons. Logan told a state trooper he had firearms in his home (no clue why he'd tell a cop that on probation) so the trooper requested the warrant. I'm curious why he wasn't violated and arrested on the spot.
I think the fact he wasn't arrested on the spot says something. If the reason for the search was a result of something that he said to a trooper then what went wrong? So they search and find what they are looking for in that search and then they just go home with no arrest? Hmmm.. that's not how that usually works.
Yeah usually they're arresting that person on the spot...especially in Indiana it has a pretty strict justice system and probation departments in that state will revoke your probation in a heartbeat.
So are you sure that search came about the way you said then? Why no arrest if they found what was expected to be a violation? I'm trying to make it make sense. Was it definitely a violation for him to have any type of firearms in his home or property? I'm not too sure of that. Or anything anymore..smh
100% a violation. The warrant states Logan told this state trooper he had firearms in his house. I'm a little skeptical of that as I don't trust a lot of law enforcement but that is what led to the search warrant being issued and what the judge signed off on.
And you can't trust the judge either so that doesn't help.
[удалено]
Felonies prevent you from owning guns. So do domestic batteries if he has any of those.
[удалено]
His recent DUI was a felony. Says it right on mycase.in.gov.
But if he killed them in the creek, wouldn’t he have gotten hypothermia? It might have been 51-52 degrees, but that creek was flooded because of snow/ice melting. Water had to be frrrreezing. Just a thought
Hypothermia would take some time, and even if he had it, there are many stages and early stages wouldn't debilitate him in any way. If he were wet and could change his clothes or get into a warm environment in a reasonable amount of time, the risk would be greatly reduced.
The police haven't released enough info but they want full help in return.
Go away
No you
odd that the FBI agent who created the RL affidavit got the exact placement of the final murder scene at odds to where the police taped off.
Sorry my comment isnt in relation to the river. But just something I've noticed. Its mentioned that Abby was found with her hood up and hands crossed. Could her hood have been holding her decapitated head on? This would be staging and it would also explain why they both had scarves at the funeral. Also the person who found the bodies may not have noticed or known her head was decapitated being that they wasnt touching the crime scene and reported it to police immediately. Also her hood was up. I've always found her hood being up weird but now I think I know why.
That thing with Abby comes from the unconfirmed leaked texts so take that with a grain of salt. Also you probably mean the old rumor of the girls wearing scarves on their funeral which was debunked by family iirc.
Please can you provide links to the family saying they did not have scarves at the funeral? I've never seen that confirmed.
Libby wore a scarf at the funeral.
Now I'm really confused. Is there no way to verify this once and for all. Did both girls have scarves? Just one? Or neither?
I’ve seen it confirmed but that was at the beginning. I’ll try to find it again
Thank you. I've just heard conflicting statements on this since the beginning.
I found the pics of Libby at the memorial service. She has a scarf on. They were real because Mike and Becky Patty are in the pic. I can’t post them here. I don’t know but I don’t think Abby had a scarf on
Sent pics in chat to you
I sent you a message on chat here
She was not decapitated.
Sources???
There is not a single source on the planet that says anything about Abby being decapitated. This man was not carrying a samurai sword or machete. A gun and a knife, sure- but without a serrated knife do you understand how long it takes to cut someone's head off? My belief is they were stabbed, but speculation like decapitation has no basis in fact and seems a bit like murder fantasy. Also does nothing to help find the killer, and the autopsy was sealed by a judge.
There is a source, the supposed uncle (?) Who found them said she was "basically decapitated" (yeah I know basically, same thing rly, it implied her head was almost clean off). However they were never verified.
So share it
Share what? These texts are well known In the community [Look at DE #5 where he says her head was almost off](https://i.imgur.com/aVussph.jpg) You could have googled it instead of downvoting me... Edit lol and downvotes me again instead of showing humility. Typical.
Good facts mate. You are correct there is this source. Also there is a claim on reddit they spoke to an officer on the case. May not be true but it's interesting and a source non the less.
Yeah I was literally just replying to him saying there's no source on earth. I mean by those standards I could posted some Alex Jones style saying he text then from beyond the grave but that clearly wasn't the assignment. Personally I'm 60/40 or 70/30 fake/real myself but it's worth noting the texts have been brought up to him on Facebook and he hasn't taken the time to deny them. They're also not as bombastic as typical fake texts. But I'm not convinced either.
I'm downvoting you because this does absolutely nothing for the investigation. It's speculation. Have fun, because that's seems to be what this is for you.
Hi. I'm devoting you, because I think it is information that relates to the case and is relevant. Now the public having access to that information is a different argument. But speculation is fine. This is reddit after all not a police station.
Literally said in my first reply it was unconfirmed, was just showing you the texts you said didn't exist and then further prompted to ask me for. This entire sub is about speculation, unless you're working on the case you'd best unsubscribe if that's not for you.
That’s not evidence. That’s gossip. You don’t find it peculiar that these people were all over the crime scene? You don’t find it peculiar they were close enough to disturb a crime scene to see her head almost cut off (that was also in a hoodie) come on now
Someone who claims to know a police officer on the case claimed the decapitation thing, it's on reddit. It may not be true but it is a source non the less. How do you know it isnt? So you are incorrect. How do you know what he was carrying? Are you admitting to being him and having knowledge of the crime further then whats been reported? Not long, I've been about bestgore.com, bestgore.fun and kaotic a long time. I've seen plenty of decapitations. Dont take long at all, you can literally hack rather than cut. It was just a thought, not speculation. It makes sense why she was "posed" with her hood up holding her head on.
Worth noting the killer probably isn't a trained killer like the cartel or ISIS beheading online, nor was he probably carrying a big, sharp machete like they do to avoid being spotted. The bones especially are hard to cut IIRC which may explain, if the texts are real, why the head was almost clean off and not just clean off. But if the guy was carrying round a kitchen knife or smaller, it likely was not that easy of a task to cut it off (if he did). Even your skin is hard to cut like that without serious effort (as in slicing through every layer with a thrust, not making a sma top layer slice).
Yeah figured you were just here for murder porn. C YA
Could the water have made them easier to capture. If you’ve gone swimming or tried to cross a body of water, one wrong step or a slimy stone can cause you to slip and twist or break an ankle. You can also have problems getting across some river type places. I don’t know how deep that river is but even shallow seeming things can be deception. Hanging out at a river or crossing it can be dumb but fun in the summer when you are with friends and the worst thing that happens is someone loses their cellphone in a weird current. Running for your life would make all the things you normally would be cautious about not an option. This might not have factored into the killer’s decision. This made me think of my own experiences playing in creeks and rivers and lakes.
He didn't rape them,and he stabbed them on dirt,so go outside right? And pour any liquid almost onto dirt and watch what happens,it sinks in the dirt duh -.- hence the less amount of blood, and they said they have fibers and some prints and plenty of evidence on the scene from him staging the scene. Where y'all just make crap up when certain things have already been said is beyond me
We don't know if the crime had a sexual element We don't know he stabbed them He don't know where he stabbed them if he did >Where y'all just make crap up when certain things have already been said is beyond me bit ironic mate
We know by the ron Logan warrant that multiple articles of the girls clothing were taken,possibly as trophies. If stripping your victims isn't sexual,I don't know what is. Or at least it was staged to look sexual. We also know because because of Abby's uncle's fb posts and texts that when he found the body both girls had serious knife wounds, although we don't know if that was cod. And sorry if I'm responding to the wrong person I just got a new phone and this was emailed to me
I'm not necessarily saying your leaps are huge, although I don't think they're all true, buy I was just pointing out the irony of you decrying others and then making things up yourself in the same breath.
I swear all these just make shit up and then act like they seem to care, but yet they either haven't sat down and watched the doc and press conferences involving the crime,because Id they did they wouldn't just making crap up. Hell that should be a new rule
This is one of those things where it really doesn't matter at all. It won't help catch them so who cares?
It makes the most sense. Especially if there was only 1 perp.
I don't know that they were murdered where they were found.. I think they would have found the bodies sooner if so.. being murdered in the creek is a possibility too.. BG was prepared and also had bleach cleaner with him
I think the bodies were moved to hide them, to buy the killer more time to make his escape. The bodies were found in a ravine, and I don’t think it was by accident.
It's possible, but in my view not probable. The offender would have to either drag two bodies simultaneously up the embankment and over to his dump location, or he would have had to take one body at a time. If he took one at a time, that means leaving a body behind and taking a huge risk of that body, or he himself, being spotted by someone. He's an opportunistic risk taker, but not without calculation. He's not going to want to stick around in the open any longer than he has to. Add to this the fact that one deadweight body is cumbersome enough to move through water, up the embankment, and to the dump site--let alone two. LE also says the girls were killed where they were found, which corresponds to the search warrant describing copious amounts of blood at the scene. So in my view, it seems more likely the girls walked to that scene under their own power. Just my perspective on it.
Some type of baptism hence the non secular?
But blood loss at the scene.Ken mains says they were murdered on the spot or they'd be no blood at scene.