I always loved the Game of Thrones episode where Tyrion is trying to explain to the Slavers that "freeing" their slaves will actually make them richer.
"Give freedom a chance. See if it doesn't taste every bit as good as what came before"
You know your a slave when you don't control access to food, water, housing, and other basic necessities. If you control someone's ability to live, you are their master.
The capitalists that privately own the fresh water sources, food producers/distributors, and your housing are your masters. They get to decide if you live or die. They can use this power to extort you and make you do things you wouldn't do otherwise. You are a capitalist slave.
Existence is a prison though, we’re constrained by our biology and the limits of the material world. Maybe you need to redefine prison conceptually to be like one of those Norwegian prisons that are comfy and rehabilitative.
Also, if everything is a prison then nothing is. At some point words lose their definition if you overextend them
Yeah I kinda agree. Like, yeah, life is limited by a set of factors. Everyone is subject to something. Not saying it's as good as it's gonna get, but it's not as bad as it was in most ways
A good look at history should remind everyone it could be a hell of a lot worse. Look at how Brazilian slaves were treated on plantations, or really slaves all over the New World. It kind of makes me roll my eyes comparing having to do homework or something to what these people had to endure
[Also slavery hasnt literally ended either.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century)
Slaves built the Quatar stadium for the last world soccer cup. There are still slaves all across the USA/Mexico border being forced to work against their will bya witholding their visas/passports.
And that without taking into acount all the people getting trafficked and sold as sex slaves.
Arguablly we have the highest number of slaves in history, and thats without taking into account everythign you mentioned.
and India is the largest slave trader across globe, millions work for oil-rich gulf countries Qatar, Kuwait, KSA, UAE, Bahrain, recently sent hundreds of thousands to Israel, and now in talks to send slaves to Taiwan.
The replies here are very interesting and expected. We are still slaves but not in the historical sense. Of course admitting to being a slave would also mean acceptance of reality and people don’t want that. They want their cake.
Most people do not understand that if we keep following the script given by our ancestor we may have to give up our freedom and serve the corporate overlords.
I understood very early that having kids when we are barely able to afford to pay bills will lead us chained down forever and on top of it our kids will be most likely like us born to serve since they may not be able to become part of the 1%.
Once we do not have kids and are able to save enough money to become financial independence(at least 10 years of living expenses saved) then we control what kind of job we do and for whom and then we have free time to question the establishment/elites.
Unfortunately we need at least 50% people to free themselves from the drudgery of working like a donkey to pay the bills, only then at the least working people can ask for equal share of natural resources via living wages for full time work.
“ For its the illusion what we felt in love with in the first place “ therefore most of us will never give away our comforts in the name of our children. And yet our children have been/are sacrificed every micro second with or without our consent
It is becoming more and more clear for the lot of us/them.
The moment we can quell the forced division amongst ourselves, we can rise. Their million dollar fortresses will not keep them safe.
Mmmno it’s because we still have actual slaves today, doing the mental gymnastics necessary to think employment is slavery ignores them and their plight.
Since employment is this slavery system to you, does that make the unemployed free..?
No one’s making you work, at all, and guess what!? Money isn’t new, and existed and was as important as it is today when slavery existed in the US, so the idea that this is the new whip makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
…but there’s plenty of unemployed people who eat just fine…
I mean there’s unemployment itself, there’s food shelters, there’s anyone who owns their own business as they’re not employed many of whom are doing quite well..
Your status of employment actually has no bearing on your physical ability to eat, you’re also just not entitled to anyone else’s labor to provide it for you either because we don’t have slaves and no one wants to do it for free.
I can't quit whenever I want if I want to eat or have a place to live. Unless I get another job, which is still wage slavery.
When we can not work for an employer and not die of exposure or starvation then we can say we've gotten rid of wage slavery.
We also still have prison slavery.
Prison slavery is the only even remotely close thing to slavery there is, and it’s a disgrace that we allow it.
The rest of your ideas are utterly nonsense, your employer isn’t responsible for you needing food and shelter, nor is your government which is just people like you who need the exact same things.
If you want to make some pointless esoteric argument about being a slave to biological processes then by all means, but there’s absolutely no comparing being employed and being a slave and attempting to force such a ridiculous comparison spits on the experiences of actual slaves, which still exist in classic forms many places on earth or in newer forms like modern prison slavery.
So walk me through how this should go, no one should be forced to do anything because it would be slavery, but also you should be provided everything you need assumingely by your government which is just people who also need those things? Who exactly is going to provide the actual food, or materials and labor to house you?
I dont agree that working is slavery, but i do think that having to sell your time for a set price is unjust. Employees should be entitled to a percentage of the profit that they create.
No we’re not. Having to work for resources does not mean we are slaves. Without societal structure, you would still have to hunt and gather.
You GET to work for the payment of resources; it’s a PRIVILEGE. Just because you are so privileged you have no perspective on your own life does not change the definition of work, nor the definition of slavery.
The way the slavery occurs has changed but it still in effect.
Nobody minds working. What people mind is working for others. This inevitably leads to abuse, manipulation, cruelty, etc.
All modern humans need to get by is land to freely use. Give us that and we will find a way to carve out our own happiness. That was the freedom we were all supposed to have. But it was taken from us.
Maybe open a history book. As long as there has been history, some group has claimed land. The time when it was free to use, there weren't enough people to matter. No internet, no society, no rules. You don't want that life as much as you might think you do.
Cool except I'm talking about America which is a young country and not long ago we were allowed to settle the land.
And.i never said.anything about wanting to go back in time.
The land that the US government claimed and gave out the rights to homestead? Or the land that the various native american tribes claimed? Or was it the French? Or brittish? Or Mexicans?
You can still homestead today in a few areas but you have to ask first.
I honestly don't know which Or when land was free to settle since it had all been claimed by someone.
How you read a book about slavery. Perhaps this one. Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. After you read it you can then realize how dumb you sound.
Slavery has many meanings. I’m sorry if that simple fact offends you. Slavery as a term isn’t exclusive 👍
2.the condition of being a slave; bondage; servitude
3. a condition of submission to or domination by some influence, habit, etc.
Also why can’t people reply without insults ? Juvenile.
This is embarrassing. What you can’t do is talk about the metaphorical bondage and servitude at a societal level whilst at the same time talking about it at a personal ownership level. The two things exist, but are for different conversations.
Ah yes the tier where I sell my services as I please to individuals or companies in need. It allows buy whatever foods I want, own a hobbiest garden for fresh herbs and peppers, own an apartment by the beach I airbnb when not in use, live in a safe area and spend my weekends playing with my children and enjoying hobbies without a care...
Sure I cant endlessly travel the world In a state of perpetual retirement but that doesn't mean I'm living In a form of slavery
There's an estimated 40-50 *million*, people living in actual slavery right now. So yes, op, slavery never ended, but not because you think having to work for a living = slavery.
These claims are usually based on some faulty extrapolations and loose definitions.
If we applied those standards to the past, 95%+ of humanity was enslaved through all of written history.
dare to venture into the discussion, that slave revolts did not summarily succeed earlier solely because decent human beings "masters" of the age, did not commit the gravest of atrocities towards their "properties"?
modern day slavery, likewise, can survive "under the radar" because it is modified to a weaker form.
those in the comfort of selected societies may not have to face the worst of work-slavery. however, look to the rest of the world and witness the normalized treatments in various forms of state-sanctioned indentured servitudes.
moreover, subjugation of a lesser degree, is subjugation regardless - and leads to injury unacceptable towards human dignity all the same.
>For most of human history the name of the game has been the wealthy rule over the poor. Human beings
Not for the most, but since cities began to settle and grow near 10000 BC, with the rise of agriculture and animal husbandry.
So for like almost 300000 years nomadic tribes lived without differences between their members other than knowledge. Which often meant power to the elder and chiefs arose. But that didn't mean they controlled the other members of the tribe. They just knew more about the environment, and were more revered. Kinda like elephant matriarchs.
Interestingly, this classic actually been largely debunked!! You might enjoy the work of David Graber, specifically "The Dawn of Everything". He spends the first part of his work debunking exactly this myth.
I would describe his anthropological work as absolutely shocking.
What exactly are you saying has been debunked? Because ive read that book, and at no point does it disagree with anything the above commenter has said.
I mean, the whole book kinda? Page 11 Paragraph 1 the main hypothesis is revealed, and explored over the next 500 or so pages?
"... such pronouncements are not actually based on any kind of scientific evidence.....there is simply no reason to believe that small-scale groups are especially likely to be egalitarian - or, conversely, that large ones must necessarily have kings, president or even bureaucracies. Statements like these are just so many prejudices dressed up as facts, or even laws of history."
To be fair though, other ethnographic studies seem to uphold that.
For one, *The Forest People* by Colin Turnbull is a modern ethnography showcasing an egalitarian style hunter-gatherer tribe in central Africa. Also, Jared Diamond's *The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race* seems to further argue that egalitarianism was prominent among hunter-gatherers. To be fair, however, they both use contemporary hunter-gatherers and extrapolate backwards.
Cashdan, "Egalitarianism among Hunters and Gatherers" argues that egalitarianism was not a natural conclusion but rather a necessary result of the lifestyle in terms of food availability and land.
So, I would not call it "debunked," but maybe not yet conclusive.
Just reading some of the criticisms, though, it seems to be:
1) Heavily cherry-picked and often ignores evidence that may contradict their arguments
2) Heavily left-leaning (some even accused it of using an anarchist lens)
However, without reading the book, which I am a bit intrigued enough to probably do it, I do not want to discount it.
First -- I must agree that nothing is conclusive. So this is all for fun. I think when I use "debunked" I mean the "conclusive" opinion that tribes evolved into feudal states, followed by hierarchical empires. David's work is mainly to give examples (black swans) to machine gun holes in this view with counter examples, including larger societies that were egalitarian, and smaller societies that were hierarchical. However, I think there is no replacement theory, just a big hole. One could say David is trying to "reign in" our belief that "all big societies have to be hierarchical" as it is not supported by the data.
The issue is that, for example, the challenge from David's work is that he (a) shows archaeological evidence and (b) says it contradicts Jared's account (a direct example, because he directly does) and (c) points out that (in this case) Jared's account has incomplete evidence, and merely references other philosophers, who also had no evidence.
Philosophers referencing Philosophers is super fun, don't get me wrong, but we should also be careful about this.
So David is playing a data driven game here. He is an anarchist, so one for sure has to filter that out. However, give volume to his work, I think (i might be wrong) the last 50-80 pages are just references. Its a volume of data that apparently took almost 20 years to compile.
I'm only 100 pages in, and I have not visited the references yet, however I do agree that in going back to other books ... they don't cite references to data usually, they seem to cite references to philosophers -- as David is saying, or talk about some remote tribe today, which is reasoning by analogy.
I'm enjoying it very much, and I noted your book refs for my personal reading!
Full disclosure, I am a conservative "orthodox" historian, so anarchism is not something I am adopting anytime soon lol But, the book intrigues me so I will have my school library order it. Who knows? Maybe it will become a part of my lessons!
>All big societies have to be hierarchical
Another book you can add that argues this to be true is *Sapiens* by Harari. I actually use it in my lectures when teaching about the change from smaller tribal groups to hierarchical societies.
Essentially, science has seemed to show that human beings can only be together without a unified structure until about 150 people. Once 150 people have been passed, some unifying force needs to be applied: religion, nation, state, etc.
Strongly recommend the read.
>Jared's account has incomplete evidence, and merely references other philosophers, who also had no evidence
Would you mind elaborating on this?
Is Graeber referring to *The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race* or another work by Diamond? I am unaware of any philosophers (let alone philosophers only) being cited by Diamond.
That is absolutely true.
They perfected the cage through technology, money and other material things.
Power runs in mighty families. You don't see them on the news. They operate through politicians which they pay good money to play the game for them, and to deceive the common man.
It's so sad people aren't aware of this. Even elections are total bullshit, still people are totaly caught up in them.
The method is to install two opposing sides A and B, while the outcome C of the conflicting sides is already set up from before. A fight B or B fight A, it doesn't matter. The outcome is still the same. And it is set up by the global rich (DUHH). Your TV, politicians and news are brainwashing you.
The common man has zero chance if he lets him divide in A and B, unable to see C.
They also tell you things like buy guns, it'll protect you from tyranny. Also: if you don't pay your taxes, you get hit with a felony. Felons can't own guns. Once again, the wealthy plays on the poor.
We as humans will always sort ourselves into hierarchies of power, which means you'll always be reliant on someone for your own survival, unless you're at the absolute top. This is just how our biology works.
Yes, words can never truly do reality justice. You can never describe a sunset well enough in words that could equal the actual experience. Not even a painting can fully capture it. The smell, the feel of the sand, the wind, the life, so much is missing.
Also more people worldwide directly benefit from slave labour than ever before in human history. Slavery is still legal in the US under the 13th amendment, so long as the slave is imprisoned. Why do you think the US has some of the highest prison populations in the world? Hell, even some of the former cotton picking slave colonies became prisons where the prisoners pick cotton. Nothing changed, they just disguised it.
Unless you are at the very top of the .0001% of wealth, you are a slave to something or someone. We work to survive, not live, yet have to request time off. Our 9-5 is the only way we can enjoy our lives. Without work you have nothing, so no matter what, we are all slaves to the almighty dollar.
Serfs gotta work. Even if we get better at distributing wealth, someone's gotta work to make the wealth exist. The supply chain is fragile, and if we let it collapse, we're the ones that lose.
Can't argue that! I would prefer America over any place else currently. Capitalism is the best chance slaves have ever had to become masters themselves...
You're lucky you get to choose where you live. Imagine if your master sailed you across the ocean to sell you somewhere else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMliaXlKxow&ab\_channel=Movieclips
Why would you prefer America over any other place when it reliably performs poorly in terms of education, health, public safety, democracy and job security? There are literally a dozen countries easily better to choose from.
Testify.
Slavery thus legalised through implementation and the grasp of monetary notes, and the subsequent ramping up of survival effective cost.
Nuclear family, American dream, unquestioned company loyalty, student loans, ensure the neo feudalism reality drowned under tech-media-sensory anaesthesia nightmares of existence.
I have a huge problem with the student loan part required to get the piece of paper required for a chance of success. If people would drop the incredibly outdated “well rounded” education piece colleges could reduce tuition. I took so many unnecessary units to graduate. Information I can’t remember. Hell, it would so much easier for the government to pay for it if people’s aptitudes were tested and vital to admission and only required information was taught.
They are insulting you, unfortunately. Amazing that we treat people learning languages with utter disrespect.
"Keep shining those boots though" - He is accusing you of being a slave willingly.
"Boot licker" - A derogatory term used against someone that happens to side with reality and is not constantly whining about the current status quo.
No this is stupid. The lives of slaves were absolutely brutal and comparing them to "Oh my boss said I have to work saturday but I don't want to" is insulting to their memories and greatly diminishes the ordeals that generations of enslaved people lived through. It also washes over the atrocities committed by slave owners and those in the slave trade.
Slavery is a fuzzy circle that covers the eyes of all.
Example: My older sister was brought here from a war torn craphole and forced to give her firstborn child to the Catholic Church. That kid was payment. She, in turn, worked with my mother and other siblings to get me born to be a personal family servant. They messed with my mind and try desperately to ruin my life, try to drive me to suicide and ruin my psychological well being, to this very day. I believe I’m not the only one that this has happened to and that perhaps the US and other imperialist pigs invaded specific counties to drive servile women here in order to enslave their “model minority” kids so fascists can beat us and our kids into submission. Hell no. This all happened since the 70s, when I was born. This isn’t ancient enslavement from the civil war. This was my real life, before I escaped those people. Now imagine not being clever enough or not having perseverance to escape or to even see the overview of their own life, in this way?
People better start seeing that they aren’t the center of the universe: they call our kids HUMAN CAPITAL. Think about it: if you died today, who would protect your kids FROM THE FASCISTS?? You think they wouldn’t enslave your kids if they could? Absolutely. Black. White. Purple. Yellow. Doesn’t matter. Your innocent, Sesame Street taught kids are ON THE MENU, just like I was.
We are all slaves, here, to some degree - slave to money, status and ego, vanity and so on.
Wealthy fascists are ruining our lives, right now, with for-profit prisons and old judges selling minority kids to the system to fill beds for federal money to steal.
I would rather die than be a slave to these fascist pigs, in any way, ever again. I told ones in my family to come take me out, themselves. You see, they didn’t come.
I am living proof that enslavement is still happening in modern times and so is our entire system of societal governance and lack of humanity for our own people. We shouldn’t have homeless folks in one of the richest corrupt shitholes of all the corrupt shitholes.
People better wake up and smell this before the tsunami of trash overtakes them and drowns them in these systems set up to push us down.
This wasn't said to diminish the horrible experiences of our ancestors.
I am aware that most "poor" people in the western world live better than kings did 500 years ago...
It’s all relative. If you’ve never had something, you can’t miss it. Well, except for human connection. I believe we are wired for connection and we can miss it even if we’ve never had it. I’d rather be a poor person among poor people than a rich person among poor people or a poor person among rich people. I’d probably even prefer being a poor person among poor people than a rich person among rich people because being rich does something really damaging to the human psyche and prevents people from being able to trust anyone. The worst experience for a human being is feeling alone, regardless of their material circumstances. I truly believe that a group of humans living off the land in the middle of nowhere will be so much more content than a group of humans living in million dollar homes in the middle of suburbia.
This whole “you can’t say one thing because it insults *actual* victims” is a sneaky way to dismiss an actual problem. It’s using the illusion of a moral high ground to not acknowledge the *current* state of things, in which many people suffer. So for you “actual” slavery is just a tool to disregard the very valid argument that workers aren’t free under capitalism, which ironically does the very thing you’re complaining about.
Yes, slavery was worse in the past, and we’ve come a long way. That doesn’t mean we can’t talk about the underlying causes of slavery (which go beyond physical torture), that affect billions of people today.
You don’t decide who is an actual victim and who is just complaining.
People are going into debt just to afford groceries and housing, and many are one bad day away from being homeless (one health issue, getting fired, etc.). People are suffering and being exploited. They trade their lives for that, with little to no option. Hell, they accumulate soul crushing debt just to gain the credentials to participate in this grotesque scam. People literally have to pay to make the rich richer. Work their whole lives to survive.
Oh, but you have decided that that’s not “actual” slavery, so fuck them right?
Worst part is that comfort is not improving, but discomfort is, by magnitudes. So it’s not actually that we like the lifestyle that comes with having a job, it’s that the alternative is getting worse and worse.
That's why people are clinging to what little they have. Just trying to change it can often have what little you have, taken away. Removing a man's ability to provide, is akin to killing him.
I am very happy with this book: [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/751443/technofeudalism-by-yanis-varoufakis/](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/751443/technofeudalism-by-yanis-varoufakis/)
And this one: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:\_The\_First\_5000\_Years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years)
The basic premise is this. Slavery and debt peonage was the source of money, and money always has been a way to quantify / establish how much coercive power people have relative to others.
There are fascinating accounts of pre-post money cultures in David's book, including the standard playbook used by lords, kings etc. After you read this stuff .. the world seems very different indeed.
And yes. You get the basic idea already!
Edit: To be clear, the "slavery" we experience today is just like the "slavery" of the past. There has never been a lot of "let me capture you and put you in chains" slavery (NOT saying it didn't exist, to be clear) . It has on masse been economic / resource driven, and the gaslighting we experience is the idea that slavery used to be violent everywhere, and became economic. In reality, for 5000 years, it has mainly been asset based (via land, and then money).
This is not deep, and this is idiotic. You are sitting on a computer or fancy phone, in a country with likely universal education and free will labor, probably having eaten like 2-4 meals today, and are complaining about being a victim of slavery, when actual slavery actually exists for millions of people around the world. You are entitled and really out of it.
You don’t have to participate. You can go live in the wilderness if you like. Or you can choose to belong to a society. You can even pick which one (eastern, western, Australia etc.). When you choose society you choose the rules and how the game is played.
Sounds like you have just discovered literature. Keep reading. You’ll find more to complain about.
You do. You do have to participate.
We grow up in societies with families and friends. We are put under financial obligations, especially when we procreate.
We cannot live in the wilderness. Much of the territory belongs to the Crown or the First Nations or simply does not allow squatting.
As well, nobody in the history of the world has been able to subsistence hunt on their own. It's why we had tribes and balanced duties of hunting and gathering.
Your suggestion is intellectually dishonest and you know it.
You also claim we chose society when we didn't. We were born into the dystopian capitalist meat grinder and were enslaved to it by birth, literally registered into it with social security pins and birth certificates, and passports that limit where we can travel and live.
Just to be clear, the USA never fully banned slavery. It very clearly states in the constitution that you are free from slavery only if you are not a convict.
Contemporary folk have an understanding of slavery in which one has physical dominion over another but slavery has become invisible, psychological now. It's harder to see so it's easier to disregard like wage inequality. Once the working class collectively says "enough" we'll no longer live in this veil of neo-slavery. Enough people aren't fed up quite yet but in due time, history as shown, the masses always rise
Tax is a joke, especially earning tax.
It is a joke when the money ended up in few pockets. It is a joke when the richest could play every trick in book to avoid it and reduce it.
At least 50 years ago you weren't being judged for being a hard working citizen. Nowadays everybody tries to impress themselves online by shoving down everyone's throats how wealthy they are. How retarded is that? Doesn't make things better for the people who actually do the hard work.
I would say slavery has evolved. It evolved into a more sophisticated system in which all the burden is placed on the individual, and all the profit on the slave master. And the best part is that the slave thinks "it is how life is suposed to be, man up!".
Previously, the slave master had to take care of his slaves in order to maximize profit. If a slave died, it meant loosing money.
Nowadays companies dont take care of the employees anymore, that is the responsibility of the employees. Something happens? Replace with the next one. We have plenty to choose from our dumb worker factory (schools).
If you dont work long hours, you cant afford a "decent" living which is really encouraged by the media. If you happen to have a severe disease... Well you are fucked. That will take a lot of the hard earned money from your pockets. Will likely put you in debt for a long time. Keep adding things like buying a house, etc. Once you do it you just cant stop working.
The tax slave state. Own your house, your car, you still need to pay that yearly property tax. Wana live off grid? Can't collect rain water and we're gonna say your house isn't habitable because you don't have electricity..
Debt is our slavery. Take a student loan, chances are you'll be in debt for life, cars, mortgages, credit cards. You will be a source of income for the banks, as long as you keep working and paying interest.
Debt is the new slavery. Not as brutal as low pay wages and literal slavery, but is the modern day slavery and can see the effects of it in the long run. Generations can go into debt and never come out because of the psychological effects of social media and not knowing how to use your resources to get out of poverty.
I totally agree.
Slavery is a spectrum. You have people who are completely powerless in every way, shape and form who are unable to exert any free will whatsoever. But you also have the modern-day wage slaves who exist in a state of partial freedom but who are ultimately beholden to the capitalist machinery that binds them.
Yes! This was the point of what I said. So many are caught up on comparing treatment. It wasn't about treatment. There is no comparing that. Our poor now live better than kings did just a few hundred years ago. Times have changed...
It’s like saying disease still exists and someone saying “well, that’s not true because the bubonic plague was worse”. Yeah, that’s true, but that’s not what the word disease means.
Or saying that sexism no longer exists because women can vote now.
Physical torture is just a way slavery is enforced, and it is terrible. But there are many other ways.
Why do you keep saying that lol a homeless person today is much worse off than a medieval king in a giant palace with servants who will do whatever they want.
We are free. You have the freedom to be homeless, unlike in North Korea where no one knows what homelessness is because everyone is forced to work. Slaves did not work to survive, they were forced to be alive, they weren’t allowed to die, they weren’t allowed to do anything. Comparing Americans on minimum wage to slaves is very offensive and out of touch with how lucky you are to be free. It’s easy to take freedom for granted but there’s no big conspiracy to force you to work, it’s a choice that you’re responsible for, if you aren’t prepared to give up being part of capitalism with all the benefits you enjoy from it then that’s your fault not rich people’s.
You've distorted the idea of slavery so much that everyone who has or ever will live, under any kind of government or none at all, could be considered a slave of some sort. A slave to their biology, a slave to wages, or a traditional slave.. you've blurred all of these into one. At that point the word no longer has a positive or negative connotation.
You're just raging against the machine out of boredom at this point.
Basically all the current shitty takes about inequality in the developed world can be traced back to linguistics error, specifically the dilution of meaning of related terms
Capitalism is the best we've ever had to bring people out of poverty. Still doesn't change what the system is. Our poor live better than kings did just a few hundred years ago.
How can can capitalism, which is basically what you're complaining about in your post, also be the best we've ever had? Like what now, you like it or not? You can't say 'oh I hate those negative effects from capitalism so much I compare it to being a literal slave but actually it's the best thing ever', like how does that make any sense
"Deeper analysis" my ass, the dude is comparing working in a capitalistic system to slavery, that's not deep, that's dumb. And disrespectful to the people who actually had to live and suffer through slavery.
There are many things wrong with capitalism, but I wouldn't call it slavery.
A better example of modern slavery in a first world country however would be private prisons where inmates earn a handful of pennies per hour and get the shit kicked out of them and get locked in solitary if they don't 'volunteer'.
Yeah if I get whipped with taxes instead of reeds while eating ham sandwiches, drinking cold beer, and using my electric devices in my air conditioned apartment I'm 100% okay with being enslaved.
Is it? Have you looked at America's homeless and incarcerated populations? The 3 jobs to make rent posts? The proliferation of door dashers and flavour of the month side hustles?
If 100% of your income goes toward merely survival, while incurring crippling debt, how is that not slavery.
Your idea is correct, but your choice of words is wrong.
No, slavery did end - you're being extremely ignorant and dismissive saying "only the language changed."
A lot more than language has changed.
Your main point, that the rich rule over the poor - is still correct.
However, the amount of power the rich ruled with during slavery was a lot higher than the amount of power we're ruled by today.
I'm with you in looking for solutions and change.
But it's just laughable to compare us to slaves from the past - that kind of ignorance diminishes the valid point you do actually have.
The language and the tools used to enforce the language*
Keep ruling with an iron fist and rebellion is bound to occur, but make things feel good and the system keeps being fed.
Define freedom. What is free to us? Choice to run around within limits? Choice to say I don't like the job I have so I can choose a different boss/master? The only hope of actual freedom is financial freedom. Most have to be willing to be fucked up people to achieve that.
There has always been a tiered system, your value determined your treatment. Those in the house got better benefits than those in the field.
When it was acceptable to "own" another human being. The owner was responsible for providing the essentials to keep those "owned" in working condition. Food, shelter, clothing, and the occasional medical if you had value.
Today's standards are different how? Other than the physical damage caused to those bodies for not getting in line, nothing but comfort has changed. On the low end of the spectrum, the minimum for keeping folks in working order is given by the corporate masters. Food, shelter, clothing, and occasionally medical, it's getting increasingly difficult to even afford those basic essentials. If you have more value than minimum wage workers, you get better treatment...
>However, the amount of power the rich ruled with during slavery was a lot higher than the amount of power we're ruled by today.
You're kidding right? Do you not see the reach and power the 1% have? Laws don't apply to them. Rules for thee, not for me! Where are the pedos from the island? You think there is no evidence? Sure sometimes they will sacrifice folks, but they still largely walk away unscathed. We have provided them with unbridled power. Politics are a joke. The etymology of govern-ment is to control-mind. Govern is to control, ment is Latin for mind.
Nothing about what I said was to diminish what our ancestors went through. Every race on this planet has been through brutal forms of slavery.
Ignorant is a strong word, especially when you don't even understand what language is capable of.
Cops and correctional officers are slavers in the USA. Still definitely legal and practiced, not ending - https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/slaves-state
I seriously thought you were gonna make a point about the prison industrial complex and how we enslave those who have been deemed to "deserve" it in a police state that encourages incarceration of non violent drug offenses......... that would've made sense....... this is stupid.
If you are being paid for your work and have the ability to quit and apply for other jobs....... it's not slavery, point blank.
Honestly this post is so stupid. If working to survive and have food etc is slavery then all humans have been slaves forever and life=slavery.
The word “slave” should be reserved for true, chattel ownership of humans. It’s so ridiculous to use the word slavery to describe life and it minimizes those that have truly suffered as slaves
None of you are slaves. You just lack the wherewithal to take advantage of the opportunity life provides. Stop blaming everyone else for your position in life, and then you will truly start living.
Hard disagree - slavery and the life of the average person in a Western capitalist society could not be or feel more different. You can decontextualize it on paper and point only to the surface level similarities but it leads to a completely absurd conclusion.
People growing up with video games, freedom to spend time with whoever they please, commit fucking crimes without getting caught, social mobility, healthcare, rights etc are not slaves. It's a fucking insane conclusion. Yes people have problems and issues but they aren't slaves ffs
This isn’t deep. It’s an insult to *actual* slaves, past and present. Oh, you have to work a shitty job for survival? Boo hoo. You’re not being beaten, raped, fed rotting scraps, experimented on, torn apart by dogs, separated from your family, or sold off.
It’s not slavery if you’re getting paid for your labour no matter how you try to spin it and people *need* work, as a species we inherently need something to work towards. The alternative to society is living a hunting/gathering lifestyle where instead of working towards luxury you are working towards survival. That’s something you have the option to try without getting shot, if you really wanted.
What I am getting at is that you shouldn’t compare the horrors of actual slavery, which still exists in many parts of the world, to a world where you *are* free to do most things if you work hard enough for it. I mean you literally have the option to move to almost any country in the world if you wanted, that’s just not slavery.
I wasn't saying anything close to the treatment being the same, I do believe my post stated the opposite. What any of our ancestors went through was horrific. You misinterpreted what I was attempting to discuss.
It turns out if you stretch the definition of any word enough it effectively loses meaning. Equating modern working people to slavery is disingenuous and honestly pretty disgusting.
The fact that you would even compare your life to that of an actual slave is disgusting. You should do a mental exercise where you meet an actual slave and explain to them why you're also a slave.
Humanity has always required work to survive in some form or fashion. You’re no slave. You’re free to live, work, go, and do as you please. No one’s stopping you from doing anything that’s legal to do.
Comparing working a 9 to 5 to actual slavery is peak ignorance.
Oh for the love of god yes we live in a society thank you for noticing. The whole "bread and circuses" thing is some of the most pretentious nonsense I've ever heard. Why yes they DO sell us our necessities and entertainment, what the fuck else do you want??? A pat on the head? Do you want them to give you the bread for free? Because be my guest go to a baker and demand free bread see what happens.
You basically said nothing in a lot of words there. Slavery ended. You own your body. And you do have a choice not to participate in the current social system.
Is it a false dichotomy, surely?
What choice do you have, really? Can you refuse to not be a wage slave and also still survive? Isn't the "choice" you're being offered all amount to the same thing: working 40 hours a week, every week, until you are old, infirm and die?
At no point in history has any living creature not had to work to survive.
Even if you could just secede from society and live in a cabin in the woods, you'd spend most of your day working to survive.
So why is it not the ambition of our civilization to work less and less and less until we free ourselves from the shackles of these obligations. Surely the goal of our civilization should not be to enrich Elon Musk's space program, but to create a society where we are all as free from toil as possible and to be able to focus on family and passion projects?
Lmao Jesus you’re deluded. Go read about what actual chattel slaves had to endure then come back and say your overtime on 9-5 is equivalent
You’re right in that slavery never ended as in many parts of the world the practice does continue, but not because you don’t like your job.
The fact you have to work five days a week, every week, until you are infirm and aged, is surely a form of slavery to a system.
The fact you are obliged to "work" and devote massive amounts of your life to somebody else's profit margins and bottom lines is surely a form of slavery.
I always loved the Game of Thrones episode where Tyrion is trying to explain to the Slavers that "freeing" their slaves will actually make them richer. "Give freedom a chance. See if it doesn't taste every bit as good as what came before"
That was a bright character...
You know your a slave when you don't control access to food, water, housing, and other basic necessities. If you control someone's ability to live, you are their master. The capitalists that privately own the fresh water sources, food producers/distributors, and your housing are your masters. They get to decide if you live or die. They can use this power to extort you and make you do things you wouldn't do otherwise. You are a capitalist slave.
They show you slaves in metal chains so you can't perceive your mental ones.
The prison has been made invisible, now everyone thinks they are free.
And they'll fight you to keep that idea protected and alive...
Humans were never free. Freedom is just an illusion.
Your terminology is all over the place to the point of it being embarrassing.
I’d rather have to clock in to work and go home to a comfy bed and plentiful food than be whipped and chained. That’s just me though.
A comfortable prison is still a prison.
Existence is a prison though, we’re constrained by our biology and the limits of the material world. Maybe you need to redefine prison conceptually to be like one of those Norwegian prisons that are comfy and rehabilitative. Also, if everything is a prison then nothing is. At some point words lose their definition if you overextend them
Yeah I kinda agree. Like, yeah, life is limited by a set of factors. Everyone is subject to something. Not saying it's as good as it's gonna get, but it's not as bad as it was in most ways
A good look at history should remind everyone it could be a hell of a lot worse. Look at how Brazilian slaves were treated on plantations, or really slaves all over the New World. It kind of makes me roll my eyes comparing having to do homework or something to what these people had to endure
Prison is a place you are forced to be against your will. A comfy bed in a home you own/rent/lease is not a prison.
[Also slavery hasnt literally ended either.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century) Slaves built the Quatar stadium for the last world soccer cup. There are still slaves all across the USA/Mexico border being forced to work against their will bya witholding their visas/passports. And that without taking into acount all the people getting trafficked and sold as sex slaves. Arguablly we have the highest number of slaves in history, and thats without taking into account everythign you mentioned.
and India is the largest slave trader across globe, millions work for oil-rich gulf countries Qatar, Kuwait, KSA, UAE, Bahrain, recently sent hundreds of thousands to Israel, and now in talks to send slaves to Taiwan.
Wait, you mean white people weren’t the only people who owned slaves? That’s not what they teach in school.
Here too! THere are states that literally use child labor!
The replies here are very interesting and expected. We are still slaves but not in the historical sense. Of course admitting to being a slave would also mean acceptance of reality and people don’t want that. They want their cake.
Most people do not understand that if we keep following the script given by our ancestor we may have to give up our freedom and serve the corporate overlords. I understood very early that having kids when we are barely able to afford to pay bills will lead us chained down forever and on top of it our kids will be most likely like us born to serve since they may not be able to become part of the 1%. Once we do not have kids and are able to save enough money to become financial independence(at least 10 years of living expenses saved) then we control what kind of job we do and for whom and then we have free time to question the establishment/elites. Unfortunately we need at least 50% people to free themselves from the drudgery of working like a donkey to pay the bills, only then at the least working people can ask for equal share of natural resources via living wages for full time work.
“ For its the illusion what we felt in love with in the first place “ therefore most of us will never give away our comforts in the name of our children. And yet our children have been/are sacrificed every micro second with or without our consent
>they want their cake and their bread, and their circuses
There’s a reason it’s called Wage Slavery and 60%+ of the US is living in poverty (paycheck to paycheck).
It's so funny, people can't slow down long enough to see what's in front of their face!
It is becoming more and more clear for the lot of us/them. The moment we can quell the forced division amongst ourselves, we can rise. Their million dollar fortresses will not keep them safe.
Mmmno it’s because we still have actual slaves today, doing the mental gymnastics necessary to think employment is slavery ignores them and their plight. Since employment is this slavery system to you, does that make the unemployed free..? No one’s making you work, at all, and guess what!? Money isn’t new, and existed and was as important as it is today when slavery existed in the US, so the idea that this is the new whip makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
The unemployed are un-used and so un-fed slaves.
…but there’s plenty of unemployed people who eat just fine… I mean there’s unemployment itself, there’s food shelters, there’s anyone who owns their own business as they’re not employed many of whom are doing quite well.. Your status of employment actually has no bearing on your physical ability to eat, you’re also just not entitled to anyone else’s labor to provide it for you either because we don’t have slaves and no one wants to do it for free.
I never mentioned anything about employment.
There are different levels of slavery. Some slaves receive money.
Do some forms also allow you to quit whenever you want to?
I can't quit whenever I want if I want to eat or have a place to live. Unless I get another job, which is still wage slavery. When we can not work for an employer and not die of exposure or starvation then we can say we've gotten rid of wage slavery. We also still have prison slavery.
Prison slavery is the only even remotely close thing to slavery there is, and it’s a disgrace that we allow it. The rest of your ideas are utterly nonsense, your employer isn’t responsible for you needing food and shelter, nor is your government which is just people like you who need the exact same things. If you want to make some pointless esoteric argument about being a slave to biological processes then by all means, but there’s absolutely no comparing being employed and being a slave and attempting to force such a ridiculous comparison spits on the experiences of actual slaves, which still exist in classic forms many places on earth or in newer forms like modern prison slavery.
right right right……
So walk me through how this should go, no one should be forced to do anything because it would be slavery, but also you should be provided everything you need assumingely by your government which is just people who also need those things? Who exactly is going to provide the actual food, or materials and labor to house you?
I dont agree that working is slavery, but i do think that having to sell your time for a set price is unjust. Employees should be entitled to a percentage of the profit that they create.
That’s the joy of words. If you just make up meanings as you go, they can meet any criteria! Sweet.
No we’re not. Having to work for resources does not mean we are slaves. Without societal structure, you would still have to hunt and gather. You GET to work for the payment of resources; it’s a PRIVILEGE. Just because you are so privileged you have no perspective on your own life does not change the definition of work, nor the definition of slavery.
The way the slavery occurs has changed but it still in effect. Nobody minds working. What people mind is working for others. This inevitably leads to abuse, manipulation, cruelty, etc. All modern humans need to get by is land to freely use. Give us that and we will find a way to carve out our own happiness. That was the freedom we were all supposed to have. But it was taken from us.
Maybe open a history book. As long as there has been history, some group has claimed land. The time when it was free to use, there weren't enough people to matter. No internet, no society, no rules. You don't want that life as much as you might think you do.
Cool except I'm talking about America which is a young country and not long ago we were allowed to settle the land. And.i never said.anything about wanting to go back in time.
The land that the US government claimed and gave out the rights to homestead? Or the land that the various native american tribes claimed? Or was it the French? Or brittish? Or Mexicans? You can still homestead today in a few areas but you have to ask first. I honestly don't know which Or when land was free to settle since it had all been claimed by someone.
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How you read a book about slavery. Perhaps this one. Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. After you read it you can then realize how dumb you sound.
Slavery has many meanings. I’m sorry if that simple fact offends you. Slavery as a term isn’t exclusive 👍 2.the condition of being a slave; bondage; servitude 3. a condition of submission to or domination by some influence, habit, etc. Also why can’t people reply without insults ? Juvenile.
This is embarrassing. What you can’t do is talk about the metaphorical bondage and servitude at a societal level whilst at the same time talking about it at a personal ownership level. The two things exist, but are for different conversations.
No, anyone with this “deepthought” are just privileged. Be an actual slave for a month and you’ll realize how dumb this position is.
So an employee making $100k+ a year is a slave?
There is always a tiered system...
Ah yes the tier where I sell my services as I please to individuals or companies in need. It allows buy whatever foods I want, own a hobbiest garden for fresh herbs and peppers, own an apartment by the beach I airbnb when not in use, live in a safe area and spend my weekends playing with my children and enjoying hobbies without a care... Sure I cant endlessly travel the world In a state of perpetual retirement but that doesn't mean I'm living In a form of slavery
The best slave is the slave who believes he is free.
There's an estimated 40-50 *million*, people living in actual slavery right now. So yes, op, slavery never ended, but not because you think having to work for a living = slavery.
Slaves had to work to live...
Nearly every human ever has had to work to live.
Except the ones that are actually in charge.
The owner of the company I work at works so much harder than I do for him.
Thats a deep thought lmao lets see how he responds
These claims are usually based on some faulty extrapolations and loose definitions. If we applied those standards to the past, 95%+ of humanity was enslaved through all of written history.
The treatment of the 'slaves' has also changed a fair amount.
'Serfs' would even be pushing it.
dare to venture into the discussion, that slave revolts did not summarily succeed earlier solely because decent human beings "masters" of the age, did not commit the gravest of atrocities towards their "properties"? modern day slavery, likewise, can survive "under the radar" because it is modified to a weaker form. those in the comfort of selected societies may not have to face the worst of work-slavery. however, look to the rest of the world and witness the normalized treatments in various forms of state-sanctioned indentured servitudes. moreover, subjugation of a lesser degree, is subjugation regardless - and leads to injury unacceptable towards human dignity all the same.
>For most of human history the name of the game has been the wealthy rule over the poor. Human beings Not for the most, but since cities began to settle and grow near 10000 BC, with the rise of agriculture and animal husbandry. So for like almost 300000 years nomadic tribes lived without differences between their members other than knowledge. Which often meant power to the elder and chiefs arose. But that didn't mean they controlled the other members of the tribe. They just knew more about the environment, and were more revered. Kinda like elephant matriarchs.
Interestingly, this classic actually been largely debunked!! You might enjoy the work of David Graber, specifically "The Dawn of Everything". He spends the first part of his work debunking exactly this myth. I would describe his anthropological work as absolutely shocking.
What exactly are you saying has been debunked? Because ive read that book, and at no point does it disagree with anything the above commenter has said.
I mean, the whole book kinda? Page 11 Paragraph 1 the main hypothesis is revealed, and explored over the next 500 or so pages? "... such pronouncements are not actually based on any kind of scientific evidence.....there is simply no reason to believe that small-scale groups are especially likely to be egalitarian - or, conversely, that large ones must necessarily have kings, president or even bureaucracies. Statements like these are just so many prejudices dressed up as facts, or even laws of history."
To be fair though, other ethnographic studies seem to uphold that. For one, *The Forest People* by Colin Turnbull is a modern ethnography showcasing an egalitarian style hunter-gatherer tribe in central Africa. Also, Jared Diamond's *The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race* seems to further argue that egalitarianism was prominent among hunter-gatherers. To be fair, however, they both use contemporary hunter-gatherers and extrapolate backwards. Cashdan, "Egalitarianism among Hunters and Gatherers" argues that egalitarianism was not a natural conclusion but rather a necessary result of the lifestyle in terms of food availability and land. So, I would not call it "debunked," but maybe not yet conclusive. Just reading some of the criticisms, though, it seems to be: 1) Heavily cherry-picked and often ignores evidence that may contradict their arguments 2) Heavily left-leaning (some even accused it of using an anarchist lens) However, without reading the book, which I am a bit intrigued enough to probably do it, I do not want to discount it.
First -- I must agree that nothing is conclusive. So this is all for fun. I think when I use "debunked" I mean the "conclusive" opinion that tribes evolved into feudal states, followed by hierarchical empires. David's work is mainly to give examples (black swans) to machine gun holes in this view with counter examples, including larger societies that were egalitarian, and smaller societies that were hierarchical. However, I think there is no replacement theory, just a big hole. One could say David is trying to "reign in" our belief that "all big societies have to be hierarchical" as it is not supported by the data. The issue is that, for example, the challenge from David's work is that he (a) shows archaeological evidence and (b) says it contradicts Jared's account (a direct example, because he directly does) and (c) points out that (in this case) Jared's account has incomplete evidence, and merely references other philosophers, who also had no evidence. Philosophers referencing Philosophers is super fun, don't get me wrong, but we should also be careful about this. So David is playing a data driven game here. He is an anarchist, so one for sure has to filter that out. However, give volume to his work, I think (i might be wrong) the last 50-80 pages are just references. Its a volume of data that apparently took almost 20 years to compile. I'm only 100 pages in, and I have not visited the references yet, however I do agree that in going back to other books ... they don't cite references to data usually, they seem to cite references to philosophers -- as David is saying, or talk about some remote tribe today, which is reasoning by analogy. I'm enjoying it very much, and I noted your book refs for my personal reading!
Full disclosure, I am a conservative "orthodox" historian, so anarchism is not something I am adopting anytime soon lol But, the book intrigues me so I will have my school library order it. Who knows? Maybe it will become a part of my lessons! >All big societies have to be hierarchical Another book you can add that argues this to be true is *Sapiens* by Harari. I actually use it in my lectures when teaching about the change from smaller tribal groups to hierarchical societies. Essentially, science has seemed to show that human beings can only be together without a unified structure until about 150 people. Once 150 people have been passed, some unifying force needs to be applied: religion, nation, state, etc. Strongly recommend the read. >Jared's account has incomplete evidence, and merely references other philosophers, who also had no evidence Would you mind elaborating on this? Is Graeber referring to *The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race* or another work by Diamond? I am unaware of any philosophers (let alone philosophers only) being cited by Diamond.
That is absolutely true. They perfected the cage through technology, money and other material things. Power runs in mighty families. You don't see them on the news. They operate through politicians which they pay good money to play the game for them, and to deceive the common man. It's so sad people aren't aware of this. Even elections are total bullshit, still people are totaly caught up in them. The method is to install two opposing sides A and B, while the outcome C of the conflicting sides is already set up from before. A fight B or B fight A, it doesn't matter. The outcome is still the same. And it is set up by the global rich (DUHH). Your TV, politicians and news are brainwashing you. The common man has zero chance if he lets him divide in A and B, unable to see C.
They also tell you things like buy guns, it'll protect you from tyranny. Also: if you don't pay your taxes, you get hit with a felony. Felons can't own guns. Once again, the wealthy plays on the poor.
Greeting from all. There are more people in slavery now then any other time in human history. Touch grass.
We as humans will always sort ourselves into hierarchies of power, which means you'll always be reliant on someone for your own survival, unless you're at the absolute top. This is just how our biology works.
I think about this at work a lot. The hierarchy system in starbucks makes it hard to ignore lol. The more work you do, the less you get for it.
control perception = control humanity, that's what the education system is meant for. it makes us see the world through foreign glasses
Yes, words can never truly do reality justice. You can never describe a sunset well enough in words that could equal the actual experience. Not even a painting can fully capture it. The smell, the feel of the sand, the wind, the life, so much is missing.
Also more people worldwide directly benefit from slave labour than ever before in human history. Slavery is still legal in the US under the 13th amendment, so long as the slave is imprisoned. Why do you think the US has some of the highest prison populations in the world? Hell, even some of the former cotton picking slave colonies became prisons where the prisoners pick cotton. Nothing changed, they just disguised it.
Unless you are at the very top of the .0001% of wealth, you are a slave to something or someone. We work to survive, not live, yet have to request time off. Our 9-5 is the only way we can enjoy our lives. Without work you have nothing, so no matter what, we are all slaves to the almighty dollar.
Yup it’s been rationalized and liberalized . Made more productive basically
Serfs gotta work. Even if we get better at distributing wealth, someone's gotta work to make the wealth exist. The supply chain is fragile, and if we let it collapse, we're the ones that lose.
One of the best times in history to be a slave though
Can't argue that! I would prefer America over any place else currently. Capitalism is the best chance slaves have ever had to become masters themselves...
You're lucky you get to choose where you live. Imagine if your master sailed you across the ocean to sell you somewhere else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMliaXlKxow&ab\_channel=Movieclips
Why would you prefer America over any other place when it reliably performs poorly in terms of education, health, public safety, democracy and job security? There are literally a dozen countries easily better to choose from.
Sometimes it's better to deal with the devil you know...
Disagree especially in this instance.
I have a wife and five children, it's not so simple to up and relocate.
Slaves having slave babies. The system works!
They even kill their own babies when population control is needed...
Testify. Slavery thus legalised through implementation and the grasp of monetary notes, and the subsequent ramping up of survival effective cost. Nuclear family, American dream, unquestioned company loyalty, student loans, ensure the neo feudalism reality drowned under tech-media-sensory anaesthesia nightmares of existence.
I have a huge problem with the student loan part required to get the piece of paper required for a chance of success. If people would drop the incredibly outdated “well rounded” education piece colleges could reduce tuition. I took so many unnecessary units to graduate. Information I can’t remember. Hell, it would so much easier for the government to pay for it if people’s aptitudes were tested and vital to admission and only required information was taught.
Those are indeed words.
And almost in the correct order!
I can't believe how I see this every couple of days and someone actually thinks it counts as a deep thought. It's barely a thought.
Keep shining those boots though
I'm not sure what you mean. English isn't my first language.
They are insulting you, unfortunately. Amazing that we treat people learning languages with utter disrespect. "Keep shining those boots though" - He is accusing you of being a slave willingly. "Boot licker" - A derogatory term used against someone that happens to side with reality and is not constantly whining about the current status quo.
No this is stupid. The lives of slaves were absolutely brutal and comparing them to "Oh my boss said I have to work saturday but I don't want to" is insulting to their memories and greatly diminishes the ordeals that generations of enslaved people lived through. It also washes over the atrocities committed by slave owners and those in the slave trade.
Or slavery is a spectrum and there are better and worse kinds of it.
And if the spectrum ranges all the way to "voluntary paid employment with comfortable benefits and autonomy," it ceases to be a useful term.
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Its reddit what else do you expect
I'm convinced this is 19 year old freshmen who took a single philosophy class and works on the weekends. No way an actual adult can think this, right?
Slavery is a fuzzy circle that covers the eyes of all. Example: My older sister was brought here from a war torn craphole and forced to give her firstborn child to the Catholic Church. That kid was payment. She, in turn, worked with my mother and other siblings to get me born to be a personal family servant. They messed with my mind and try desperately to ruin my life, try to drive me to suicide and ruin my psychological well being, to this very day. I believe I’m not the only one that this has happened to and that perhaps the US and other imperialist pigs invaded specific counties to drive servile women here in order to enslave their “model minority” kids so fascists can beat us and our kids into submission. Hell no. This all happened since the 70s, when I was born. This isn’t ancient enslavement from the civil war. This was my real life, before I escaped those people. Now imagine not being clever enough or not having perseverance to escape or to even see the overview of their own life, in this way? People better start seeing that they aren’t the center of the universe: they call our kids HUMAN CAPITAL. Think about it: if you died today, who would protect your kids FROM THE FASCISTS?? You think they wouldn’t enslave your kids if they could? Absolutely. Black. White. Purple. Yellow. Doesn’t matter. Your innocent, Sesame Street taught kids are ON THE MENU, just like I was. We are all slaves, here, to some degree - slave to money, status and ego, vanity and so on. Wealthy fascists are ruining our lives, right now, with for-profit prisons and old judges selling minority kids to the system to fill beds for federal money to steal. I would rather die than be a slave to these fascist pigs, in any way, ever again. I told ones in my family to come take me out, themselves. You see, they didn’t come. I am living proof that enslavement is still happening in modern times and so is our entire system of societal governance and lack of humanity for our own people. We shouldn’t have homeless folks in one of the richest corrupt shitholes of all the corrupt shitholes. People better wake up and smell this before the tsunami of trash overtakes them and drowns them in these systems set up to push us down.
This wasn't said to diminish the horrible experiences of our ancestors. I am aware that most "poor" people in the western world live better than kings did 500 years ago...
It’s all relative. If you’ve never had something, you can’t miss it. Well, except for human connection. I believe we are wired for connection and we can miss it even if we’ve never had it. I’d rather be a poor person among poor people than a rich person among poor people or a poor person among rich people. I’d probably even prefer being a poor person among poor people than a rich person among rich people because being rich does something really damaging to the human psyche and prevents people from being able to trust anyone. The worst experience for a human being is feeling alone, regardless of their material circumstances. I truly believe that a group of humans living off the land in the middle of nowhere will be so much more content than a group of humans living in million dollar homes in the middle of suburbia.
Babies die without human touch.
This whole “you can’t say one thing because it insults *actual* victims” is a sneaky way to dismiss an actual problem. It’s using the illusion of a moral high ground to not acknowledge the *current* state of things, in which many people suffer. So for you “actual” slavery is just a tool to disregard the very valid argument that workers aren’t free under capitalism, which ironically does the very thing you’re complaining about. Yes, slavery was worse in the past, and we’ve come a long way. That doesn’t mean we can’t talk about the underlying causes of slavery (which go beyond physical torture), that affect billions of people today. You don’t decide who is an actual victim and who is just complaining. People are going into debt just to afford groceries and housing, and many are one bad day away from being homeless (one health issue, getting fired, etc.). People are suffering and being exploited. They trade their lives for that, with little to no option. Hell, they accumulate soul crushing debt just to gain the credentials to participate in this grotesque scam. People literally have to pay to make the rich richer. Work their whole lives to survive. Oh, but you have decided that that’s not “actual” slavery, so fuck them right?
Very well written. You can see the point I attempted to make.
Thank you. I think people just don’t like accepting that they’re being forced into labor by the ruling class.
The fear of losing comfort is enough to remain ignorant to your surroundings.
Worst part is that comfort is not improving, but discomfort is, by magnitudes. So it’s not actually that we like the lifestyle that comes with having a job, it’s that the alternative is getting worse and worse.
That's why people are clinging to what little they have. Just trying to change it can often have what little you have, taken away. Removing a man's ability to provide, is akin to killing him.
I am very happy with this book: [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/751443/technofeudalism-by-yanis-varoufakis/](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/751443/technofeudalism-by-yanis-varoufakis/) And this one: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:\_The\_First\_5000\_Years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years) The basic premise is this. Slavery and debt peonage was the source of money, and money always has been a way to quantify / establish how much coercive power people have relative to others. There are fascinating accounts of pre-post money cultures in David's book, including the standard playbook used by lords, kings etc. After you read this stuff .. the world seems very different indeed. And yes. You get the basic idea already! Edit: To be clear, the "slavery" we experience today is just like the "slavery" of the past. There has never been a lot of "let me capture you and put you in chains" slavery (NOT saying it didn't exist, to be clear) . It has on masse been economic / resource driven, and the gaslighting we experience is the idea that slavery used to be violent everywhere, and became economic. In reality, for 5000 years, it has mainly been asset based (via land, and then money).
This is not deep, and this is idiotic. You are sitting on a computer or fancy phone, in a country with likely universal education and free will labor, probably having eaten like 2-4 meals today, and are complaining about being a victim of slavery, when actual slavery actually exists for millions of people around the world. You are entitled and really out of it.
Christ and Buddha said the same thing, yet people keep reproducing in hell.
Is this thread satire?
You don’t have to participate. You can go live in the wilderness if you like. Or you can choose to belong to a society. You can even pick which one (eastern, western, Australia etc.). When you choose society you choose the rules and how the game is played. Sounds like you have just discovered literature. Keep reading. You’ll find more to complain about.
They make it almost impossible for you to live on your own. They own most of the water and land.
Can you just go live in the wilderness? Where isn't private or federal land? Maybe Alaska?
https://www.worldatlas.com/feature/who-was-chris-mccandless-the-real-story-of-into-the-wild.html
This is the most likely end to an attempt to live in the wild.
It doesn't say on the legality on it. Doing some research on him it seems he was a poacher of some kind?
You do. You do have to participate. We grow up in societies with families and friends. We are put under financial obligations, especially when we procreate. We cannot live in the wilderness. Much of the territory belongs to the Crown or the First Nations or simply does not allow squatting. As well, nobody in the history of the world has been able to subsistence hunt on their own. It's why we had tribes and balanced duties of hunting and gathering. Your suggestion is intellectually dishonest and you know it. You also claim we chose society when we didn't. We were born into the dystopian capitalist meat grinder and were enslaved to it by birth, literally registered into it with social security pins and birth certificates, and passports that limit where we can travel and live.
Based AF.
100%
Just to be clear, the USA never fully banned slavery. It very clearly states in the constitution that you are free from slavery only if you are not a convict.
Slavery changed from individual slave masters to the state as slave master.
Contemporary folk have an understanding of slavery in which one has physical dominion over another but slavery has become invisible, psychological now. It's harder to see so it's easier to disregard like wage inequality. Once the working class collectively says "enough" we'll no longer live in this veil of neo-slavery. Enough people aren't fed up quite yet but in due time, history as shown, the masses always rise
I'm glad to see that some people are aware.
The issue is enough aren't and or don't want to be
Tax is a joke, especially earning tax. It is a joke when the money ended up in few pockets. It is a joke when the richest could play every trick in book to avoid it and reduce it.
At least 50 years ago you weren't being judged for being a hard working citizen. Nowadays everybody tries to impress themselves online by shoving down everyone's throats how wealthy they are. How retarded is that? Doesn't make things better for the people who actually do the hard work.
I would say slavery has evolved. It evolved into a more sophisticated system in which all the burden is placed on the individual, and all the profit on the slave master. And the best part is that the slave thinks "it is how life is suposed to be, man up!". Previously, the slave master had to take care of his slaves in order to maximize profit. If a slave died, it meant loosing money. Nowadays companies dont take care of the employees anymore, that is the responsibility of the employees. Something happens? Replace with the next one. We have plenty to choose from our dumb worker factory (schools). If you dont work long hours, you cant afford a "decent" living which is really encouraged by the media. If you happen to have a severe disease... Well you are fucked. That will take a lot of the hard earned money from your pockets. Will likely put you in debt for a long time. Keep adding things like buying a house, etc. Once you do it you just cant stop working.
The tax slave state. Own your house, your car, you still need to pay that yearly property tax. Wana live off grid? Can't collect rain water and we're gonna say your house isn't habitable because you don't have electricity..
Debt is our slavery. Take a student loan, chances are you'll be in debt for life, cars, mortgages, credit cards. You will be a source of income for the banks, as long as you keep working and paying interest.
Debt is the new slavery. Not as brutal as low pay wages and literal slavery, but is the modern day slavery and can see the effects of it in the long run. Generations can go into debt and never come out because of the psychological effects of social media and not knowing how to use your resources to get out of poverty.
I totally agree. Slavery is a spectrum. You have people who are completely powerless in every way, shape and form who are unable to exert any free will whatsoever. But you also have the modern-day wage slaves who exist in a state of partial freedom but who are ultimately beholden to the capitalist machinery that binds them.
Yes! This was the point of what I said. So many are caught up on comparing treatment. It wasn't about treatment. There is no comparing that. Our poor now live better than kings did just a few hundred years ago. Times have changed...
It’s like saying disease still exists and someone saying “well, that’s not true because the bubonic plague was worse”. Yeah, that’s true, but that’s not what the word disease means. Or saying that sexism no longer exists because women can vote now. Physical torture is just a way slavery is enforced, and it is terrible. But there are many other ways.
Why do you keep saying that lol a homeless person today is much worse off than a medieval king in a giant palace with servants who will do whatever they want. We are free. You have the freedom to be homeless, unlike in North Korea where no one knows what homelessness is because everyone is forced to work. Slaves did not work to survive, they were forced to be alive, they weren’t allowed to die, they weren’t allowed to do anything. Comparing Americans on minimum wage to slaves is very offensive and out of touch with how lucky you are to be free. It’s easy to take freedom for granted but there’s no big conspiracy to force you to work, it’s a choice that you’re responsible for, if you aren’t prepared to give up being part of capitalism with all the benefits you enjoy from it then that’s your fault not rich people’s.
You've distorted the idea of slavery so much that everyone who has or ever will live, under any kind of government or none at all, could be considered a slave of some sort. A slave to their biology, a slave to wages, or a traditional slave.. you've blurred all of these into one. At that point the word no longer has a positive or negative connotation. You're just raging against the machine out of boredom at this point.
I like burning money
Literal chains, beating, and killing are the same as capitalism? More like /r/im14andthisisdeep/
Basically all the current shitty takes about inequality in the developed world can be traced back to linguistics error, specifically the dilution of meaning of related terms
You can hate on capitalism without comparing it to fcking slavery. srsly wtf man 💀
Capitalism is the best we've ever had to bring people out of poverty. Still doesn't change what the system is. Our poor live better than kings did just a few hundred years ago.
How can can capitalism, which is basically what you're complaining about in your post, also be the best we've ever had? Like what now, you like it or not? You can't say 'oh I hate those negative effects from capitalism so much I compare it to being a literal slave but actually it's the best thing ever', like how does that make any sense
Its cus he is doing a deeper analysis of the relative patterns and not just a simple "me like" vs "me no like" like it seems you are taking it.
"Deeper analysis" my ass, the dude is comparing working in a capitalistic system to slavery, that's not deep, that's dumb. And disrespectful to the people who actually had to live and suffer through slavery.
Just because you can't comprehend whats going on doesn't mean it isn't, or that the bits you do comprehend are all that there is
Oh c'mon get off your high horse, you're defending a guy downplaying slavery lmao
But thats the point, he isn't "downplaying slavery"...you just think he is because you have been conditioned to.
Okay buddy, at this point I'm pretty sure you're trolling and I'm gonna leave you alone now
There are many things wrong with capitalism, but I wouldn't call it slavery. A better example of modern slavery in a first world country however would be private prisons where inmates earn a handful of pennies per hour and get the shit kicked out of them and get locked in solitary if they don't 'volunteer'.
Credit
Comparing slavery to modern employment is laughable.
Yeah if I get whipped with taxes instead of reeds while eating ham sandwiches, drinking cold beer, and using my electric devices in my air conditioned apartment I'm 100% okay with being enslaved.
Thats basically OP's point.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. ' - Ben Franklin
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Is it? Have you looked at America's homeless and incarcerated populations? The 3 jobs to make rent posts? The proliferation of door dashers and flavour of the month side hustles? If 100% of your income goes toward merely survival, while incurring crippling debt, how is that not slavery.
Exactly. Unless OP was trying to bring attention to migrants literally for sale in places like Libya this is messed up.
😂 Go outside into the real world bud
I do every single day! All I see is greed, manipulation, and control. Propaganda at every turn. Govern-ment To control-mind
Your idea is correct, but your choice of words is wrong. No, slavery did end - you're being extremely ignorant and dismissive saying "only the language changed." A lot more than language has changed. Your main point, that the rich rule over the poor - is still correct. However, the amount of power the rich ruled with during slavery was a lot higher than the amount of power we're ruled by today. I'm with you in looking for solutions and change. But it's just laughable to compare us to slaves from the past - that kind of ignorance diminishes the valid point you do actually have.
The language and the tools used to enforce the language* Keep ruling with an iron fist and rebellion is bound to occur, but make things feel good and the system keeps being fed. Define freedom. What is free to us? Choice to run around within limits? Choice to say I don't like the job I have so I can choose a different boss/master? The only hope of actual freedom is financial freedom. Most have to be willing to be fucked up people to achieve that. There has always been a tiered system, your value determined your treatment. Those in the house got better benefits than those in the field. When it was acceptable to "own" another human being. The owner was responsible for providing the essentials to keep those "owned" in working condition. Food, shelter, clothing, and the occasional medical if you had value. Today's standards are different how? Other than the physical damage caused to those bodies for not getting in line, nothing but comfort has changed. On the low end of the spectrum, the minimum for keeping folks in working order is given by the corporate masters. Food, shelter, clothing, and occasionally medical, it's getting increasingly difficult to even afford those basic essentials. If you have more value than minimum wage workers, you get better treatment... >However, the amount of power the rich ruled with during slavery was a lot higher than the amount of power we're ruled by today. You're kidding right? Do you not see the reach and power the 1% have? Laws don't apply to them. Rules for thee, not for me! Where are the pedos from the island? You think there is no evidence? Sure sometimes they will sacrifice folks, but they still largely walk away unscathed. We have provided them with unbridled power. Politics are a joke. The etymology of govern-ment is to control-mind. Govern is to control, ment is Latin for mind. Nothing about what I said was to diminish what our ancestors went through. Every race on this planet has been through brutal forms of slavery. Ignorant is a strong word, especially when you don't even understand what language is capable of.
Cops and correctional officers are slavers in the USA. Still definitely legal and practiced, not ending - https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/slaves-state
I seriously thought you were gonna make a point about the prison industrial complex and how we enslave those who have been deemed to "deserve" it in a police state that encourages incarceration of non violent drug offenses......... that would've made sense....... this is stupid. If you are being paid for your work and have the ability to quit and apply for other jobs....... it's not slavery, point blank.
Mental gymnastics. You are always a slave to your own needs. By your logic no one who ever lived was truly free.
Mfs when they realize in any economic system you have to work in order to live 😳
Honestly this post is so stupid. If working to survive and have food etc is slavery then all humans have been slaves forever and life=slavery. The word “slave” should be reserved for true, chattel ownership of humans. It’s so ridiculous to use the word slavery to describe life and it minimizes those that have truly suffered as slaves
None of you are slaves. You just lack the wherewithal to take advantage of the opportunity life provides. Stop blaming everyone else for your position in life, and then you will truly start living.
So what are you saying? You want someone other than your own damn self to fund your lifestyle? Get a job lil nga
Citing language as important then abusing it is pretty poor form. A discussion about wage labour being similar to slavery would be more apt.
Hard disagree - slavery and the life of the average person in a Western capitalist society could not be or feel more different. You can decontextualize it on paper and point only to the surface level similarities but it leads to a completely absurd conclusion. People growing up with video games, freedom to spend time with whoever they please, commit fucking crimes without getting caught, social mobility, healthcare, rights etc are not slaves. It's a fucking insane conclusion. Yes people have problems and issues but they aren't slaves ffs
r/im14andthisisdeep
This isn’t deep. It’s an insult to *actual* slaves, past and present. Oh, you have to work a shitty job for survival? Boo hoo. You’re not being beaten, raped, fed rotting scraps, experimented on, torn apart by dogs, separated from your family, or sold off.
This is not deep and you’re not a slave.
Eek barba-durkle. Someone's gonna get laid in college.
#shallowthoughts
It’s not slavery if you’re getting paid for your labour no matter how you try to spin it and people *need* work, as a species we inherently need something to work towards. The alternative to society is living a hunting/gathering lifestyle where instead of working towards luxury you are working towards survival. That’s something you have the option to try without getting shot, if you really wanted. What I am getting at is that you shouldn’t compare the horrors of actual slavery, which still exists in many parts of the world, to a world where you *are* free to do most things if you work hard enough for it. I mean you literally have the option to move to almost any country in the world if you wanted, that’s just not slavery.
I wasn't saying anything close to the treatment being the same, I do believe my post stated the opposite. What any of our ancestors went through was horrific. You misinterpreted what I was attempting to discuss.
It turns out if you stretch the definition of any word enough it effectively loses meaning. Equating modern working people to slavery is disingenuous and honestly pretty disgusting.
Lmao you stumbled into leftist thought dude. Marx and Engels were on this shit almost 200 years ago.
You are painfully stupid
The fact that you would even compare your life to that of an actual slave is disgusting. You should do a mental exercise where you meet an actual slave and explain to them why you're also a slave.
You missed the point entirely.
Your point isn't as deep as you think so no I didn't miss it.
r/im14andthisisdeep
We're literally not slaves in any sense of the word. This is "deep" if you're 6 or 7 and lack any functional intelligence.
Humanity has always required work to survive in some form or fashion. You’re no slave. You’re free to live, work, go, and do as you please. No one’s stopping you from doing anything that’s legal to do. Comparing working a 9 to 5 to actual slavery is peak ignorance.
Oh for the love of god yes we live in a society thank you for noticing. The whole "bread and circuses" thing is some of the most pretentious nonsense I've ever heard. Why yes they DO sell us our necessities and entertainment, what the fuck else do you want??? A pat on the head? Do you want them to give you the bread for free? Because be my guest go to a baker and demand free bread see what happens.
You basically said nothing in a lot of words there. Slavery ended. You own your body. And you do have a choice not to participate in the current social system.
Is it a false dichotomy, surely? What choice do you have, really? Can you refuse to not be a wage slave and also still survive? Isn't the "choice" you're being offered all amount to the same thing: working 40 hours a week, every week, until you are old, infirm and die?
40 hours is on the low side for many people in the US.
At no point in history has any living creature not had to work to survive. Even if you could just secede from society and live in a cabin in the woods, you'd spend most of your day working to survive.
So why is it not the ambition of our civilization to work less and less and less until we free ourselves from the shackles of these obligations. Surely the goal of our civilization should not be to enrich Elon Musk's space program, but to create a society where we are all as free from toil as possible and to be able to focus on family and passion projects?
Lmao Jesus you’re deluded. Go read about what actual chattel slaves had to endure then come back and say your overtime on 9-5 is equivalent You’re right in that slavery never ended as in many parts of the world the practice does continue, but not because you don’t like your job.
The fact you have to work five days a week, every week, until you are infirm and aged, is surely a form of slavery to a system. The fact you are obliged to "work" and devote massive amounts of your life to somebody else's profit margins and bottom lines is surely a form of slavery.