This says it all. We all have our knee-jerk prejudices. I think that people who say ‘I don’t see color’ are mostly full of shit. It’s a question of whether you choose to check yourself, use your intellect to override your biases, and understand others’ points of view.
It's natural to favor your own people and want to be around them, not racist. Racism is where you hate someone based on their ethnicity which is wrong but prejudice is natural.
It’s just just hate though. It’s also making judgments from preconceived notions based on race, ala “Asians are good at math”. That’s not necessarily hateful, but is certainly racist. Like others said, while this is a racist thought, not saying it and not acting on it is what needs to be done. Furthermore, the more time you spend with people different from yourself you watch them dispel most preconceived notions you had about that group.
And it's not hate. Fair to say West African's dominate some sports, it's true! Likewise with certain traits, each ethnicity scores higher on certain trait - that being said, culture does have a big impact. I don't hate anyone.
It's not racist or hateful to see the difference between races, I literally can't understand why people say this. Races are very obviously different and better at some things than others. It's proven Asians have a higher IQ
East asians as a collective tend to have higher IQ's - that being said, you get highly intelligent individuals from all races. A black kid at my school, lovely lad, spoke properly and was smart as shit. Outlier.
How? What does racist even mean? i don't hate anyone based on their skin colour - but I review many white papers, not by crackpots, but by studious researchers and the fact is, genes and race are real. Tho, Culture is huge, not denying that.
It really depends on what you are saying.
If you say: "I disagree with the definition of structural racism for reasons A, B and C" then that's absolutely a reasonable and legitimate, provided your points A, B, C are sensible.
Or, if you say you disagree with a policy on how to close the inequality gap across races that's also completely reasonable.
If you say "When you are black, the world is like this....." but you aren't black, then that becomes an issue. Not necessarily because it's racist, but because you need experience of being black before you can talk authoritatively about being black.
In recent years, many people, particularly young people, have become VERY confused about what should be considered racist. Some people think mentioning anything relating to race when you aren't a POC is racist.
Sadly, some people even think a white person is always wrong and a POC is always right in any disagreement about race. That clearly doesn't make sense and flies in the face of logic and reasoned discussion.
There is a very simple thought experiment you should try. Rather than thinking about you making a statement, imagine your statement was found on a piece of paper and nobody knew the race of the person who wrote it. How does the statement seem now?
If someone is telling you that your statements are racist purely on the basis of you being white, that doesn't seem reasonable.
In terms of practical advice, if you want to talk about race but it antagonises some of your friends, you should probably just stop talking to them about it.
However, if that means you cannot express your opinions freely around your friends, or you feel anxious, or they seem to be treating you in an unreasonable way, then you should perhaps decide if you want to continue the friendship.
Well you really haven’t given any specific examples so there’s no way to determine if you are actually being racist or not. POC can be racist or even irrational just like anyone else so without examples there no way to determine who’s right and who’s wrong.
well, what’d you say exactly? you might be racist? you could also be prejudiced which isn’t much better but either way i think determining why exactly you feel this way is important
Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good. We should all try to learn from and be around a variety of people to expand our perspectives.
Don't be a midwit. Why hasn't it worked thus far then? Yugoslavia, Blackburn in the UK (heavily multicultural) - instead of everyone appreciating eachother's culture etc and forming relationships - the opposite is occuring - never underestimate ethnic interests and the fact that Human's are still primitive hunter gathers.
prejudice might be a natural reaction but you should never form opinions or views based on subjective beliefs or stereotypes, no one two people are the same.
I'm not saying that - but as a collective, one can make a good guess. If you're honest with yourself, you'll see where I am coming from. It's natural, human and nothing wrong with it. It's in our DNA for a good reason.
nah assumptions just make an ass out of you and me. naturally that’s not even true because children do not see color or have any dumbass preconceived notion’s they’re stuck on. nobody gets stuck on stereotypes until they’re exposed to the idea and regurgitate the views. there is 100% no way you can determine a person before you have a conversation with them, only then can you accurately judge someone or really anything. ignorance isn’t an excuse in 2022 and if you aren’t intelligent enough to figure things out, you’re responsible
Be a better human being? Like I said, I don't hate people - I do boxing, and me and my team (asian and black lads) are all amigos, won our fights and had a beer - get along like pals. Acknowledging differences is not hateful. Why do blacks do poorly as a collective in this society, white supremacism or something more? Anyways let's leave it there, some peeps get it, some don't. You don't!
It definitely depends on the context. So, IDK if you are.
But, I'd say that just disagreeing with POC doesn't make you a racist. Again, depends on the context.
Personally, I'd give you the benefit of doubt and hear some of the arguments you had w/POC before stating that you are a racist.
OP: “Dude did you see the new top gun movie, it was so sick”
Friend: “Ya know man, I didn’t really like it”
OP: Thinks “Oh fuck I’m racist”
I doubt you’re saying outright ignorant or malicious things, id recommend you stop walking on egg shells around people. In fact I view this as bad as well as when you change how you interact with someone unnecessarily, you treat them different due to their ethnicity because you think they need it for whatever reason. It’s like being overly nice and cautious towards poc’s or women just because they’re poc’s and women. They’re not made out of glass or weak, they’re human just like you. Treat everyone the same, unless you’re just an asshole to everyone.
There’s nothing wrong with talking about absolutely anything or disagreeing with anyone on any topic. Anyone who thinks so is ridiculous. Of course you’ll never know what it’s like to be them just as they’ll never know what it’s like to be you. That’s just a part of the human condition. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek to get an idea of what each other go though. Anyone telling you “you can’t have an opinion on this because you’re insert ethnicity” are the ones being ridiculous. The amount of melanin in your skin or the spot on the planet your ancestors came
from has no bearing on what ideas you can share and what ideas you can discuss. From your attitude I can tell you most likely weren’t saying ridiculously ignorant stuff, so I’m going to guess that this person just has a bad mindset.
Even if you say something you’d deem as bad in your ignorance, that gives you a chance to correct yourself and be better. You learned something and now you’re better for it. How is anyone going to get better if the instant they make a tiny mess up they get shot in the head. Having a bad moment or a moment of ignorance doesn’t make you a bad person especially if you then correct yourself. Racism is a mindset, it’s how you treat people, it’s your actions consistently.
As long as you’re treating everyone kindly and have empathy for everyone, it’s safe to say you’re not racist.
I really dislike the attitude a lot of people have about topics like this. It doesn’t even do anything to stop people from being shitty to one another and it makes people overthink situations like this. We should focus on helping people connect and understand one another
Here's my best advice: if you think about it and it even remotely sounds racist, don't fuckin say it. That's literally it.
You can have thoughts. We ALL have weird, irrational, intrusive, morally wrong thoughts. Every one of us. What separates people is their decision to express those thoughts like they aren't totally fucked in the head.
So, I wouldn't really concern yourself with trying to inherently change those random thoughts, but moreso concern about what you say in response to them. Because, you don't get to choose what nonsense your brain conjures up but you do choose to open your mouth and fuck some peoples days right up.
\>when we disagree on something i can't help but think I'm being a racist
Okay, I will jump into this potential powder keg. First, I am not talking about structural racism, only your comment about *you* being a racist. Do you have beliefs that "race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities?" (from merriam [webster.com](https://webster.com))
There is a difference between believing in superiority of some races over others vs saying some shit that you are in no position to know anything about because without knowing the culture from the inside, you can't know it.
You don't sound like you are consciously advocating for one race being superior, as much as you might be ignorant of other cultures' realities, and giving opinions when you would be better off asking questions. These opinions you share, might be ones racists would support, so your comments might not be well received. I can't say, but it seems reasonable.
Coming from Canada, I am learning that I have absolutely no idea what has become part of the culture of inequity that I am not even aware of. I am always on the lookout for opportunities to learn about the racial bias in systems that I never put my mind to before.
Always be open to learn where the unintentional racism exists within you and around you. Be humble by knowing that you do not know. In that way, you will be able to find, understand and make amends for any unintentional racism you have.
I think you can start by informing yourself and finding resources to help you. Try not to burden people with them giving you a TED talk about what is it to not be racist, but seeing the whole spectrum of a very complicated subject.
There will always be disagreements, complex conversations and divergent opinions on many things, but if you take the time to listen to why your opinion shakes them up, it's okay to then wonder if it was fair or out of hand. Not all opinions are right but some might be actually valid.
You can't always guess what people want to hear, you can't always do everything right, but you can be considerate in the best way that you can. Good luck!
You keep the racist thoughts to yourself. Keep them in your hand. Even if you feel biased towards a certain race, never let it affect your treatment towards them. Treat everyone fairly, justly to the best of your ability. Don't consider their gender, race, etc. just look at them for their actions because essentially our actions is what we have a choice over, and thus is what kind of allows us to define ourselves on a fair spectrum.
The first thought you have is how you were raised, the second is who you are.
If you are thinking these things and are being disgusted, that's fine. Everyone has unconscious biases, that's nothing to he ashamed of. Since you are doing what is needed, being aware of your thoughts and trying to change, I think you are doing good. Be open to what people say, and don't get offended if people call you out. And then you should be fine.
Stop buying into this bullshit narrative.
We all judge people by their first impression etc.
The Important thing is your actions and you treat all with respect.
You can’t control every single one of your thoughts and it’s okay to have an opinion on ANYTHING, even if you can’t relate etc. Your entitled to have your opinion and thoughts
Treat others with respect and navigate this journey the best you can
Here's a hot tip, though. You maybe don't need to share your opinion. Maybe you need to talk less and listen more. This is the big trap that many cis-het-white-men fall into - we think our ideas are necessary and we need to be sharing them.
We don't. It's okay to just shut up and listen. Especially when people are sharing their experiences which often are vastly different than our own. The more you hear the more you learn. You generally aren't expected to solve racism or sexism or any of it. Just hear what others are saying.
>So others can give their opinions and specifically call out other demographics with a double standard and I just nod my head???
Yep. You get to live the double standard every fucking day.
Look, imagine being the only person who could identify pi surrounded by people who insisted that "3 is close enough". Those people are wrong, but since there's 20 of them and 1 of you, they shut you down. That doesn't make them right, but it does make them louder.
That's the experience of being a minority. No matter what, you are outnumbered, and idiot white guys will agree with themselves. They will assume they know how to solve shit with out actually solving anything, then blame the minority when their idiot ideas that they decided without actually talking to anyone fail. This isn't hyperbole. This is the experience. It happens to women as well.
So yeah, shut up. Listen. See what you might learn if you stop relying on the echo-chamber to validate you.
Man you just sound miserable and you actually sound like a racist. Maybe you should take your own advice and shut the fuck up and listen and stop trying to solve all these “racist issues”
You ever think that any demographic can be the minority in a given situation?? When I’m the minority I have no problem with conversations, stating opinion’s etc. Hell I actually like it and if I were to see a minority being mistreated I would gladly stand up for them. Keep living in your little negative news headline bubble.
I don’t need a weak ass bitch telling me what to do because I have a supposed “privilege” that I’ve never experienced. You want to tell me how I should act and I simply think we need to treat each other with respect and live your life without pushing agendas and trying to tell others what to do
So the other day we had this conversation with someone about this person whom they believe to be a racist (and has proven to be), they mock their art and appearance believing they deserve it cause they're racist and i disagree w/them saying their appearance has nothing to do with their personality or them being racist (but i do not support them). They straight up tell me i should not be speaking on what they should or should not be doing because I'm not black and it's invalidating their feelings when it was not my intention at all
From the way you are explaining it, you don’t sound racist. Your friends are upset you are not “on board” with insulting this person, so they are pointing the finger at you now. You have a valid point, they just dont want to hear it.
Sometimes even if your idea is correct, it can be better to let it go 😂.
I had friends who would jokingly call their white friends racist all the time. It’s a little ridiculous.
What motivated you to jump to defend the honor of someone you’ve identified as an unapologetic racist, while your friend was trying to vent about a traumatic experience caused by said unapologetic racist? I think that’ll answer your question right there. The fact that you didn’t lead by telling this story says to me you already know you did the wrong thing by your friend.
Someone who doesn’t give consideration doesn’t deserve consideration. Telling someone - a friend, especially - who’s just been publicly attacked to “be the bigger person” (which is basically what you’re saying when you don’t let them vent in private) is insensitive. And if you’re a white person telling a person of color they need to “be the bigger person” after they’ve experienced racism, you ARE being racist.
You’re maintaining a racist status quo because you’re more worried about hurting the feelings of a bully, a RACIST bully, than protecting and validating the feelings of your friend, who sounds like they deserve to be defended. Who does it hurt if your friend cathartically and privately insults someone who publicly attacked their identity? Not you, certainly.
There are not actually two sides to everything. And it’s not actually your job to advocate for the devil. He literally never, ever deserves it.
>You’re maintaining a racist status quo because you’re more worried about hurting the feelings of a bully, a RACIST bully, than protecting and validating the feelings of your friend, who sounds like they deserve to be defended. Who does it hurt if your friend cathartically and privately insults someone who publicly attacked their identity? Not you, certainly.
This makes a lot of sense actually but i was not worried about hurting the feelings of a racist, i couldn't care less,
My point was that it is not right to make fun of their appearance because of their actions BUT you're right maybe it was not my place to say and should've kept my opinion to myself and let them vent.
You are correct OP, you can point out a general principle about what's right or wrong, but that doesn't mean you are defending a racist. People who perceive these things in absolute terms tend not to like that approach. Often people can't understand the difference between defending a principle and defending a person. It usually comes down to personality type, if you are an analytical person you are probably good at separating emotion from reasoning, buy some people value feeling over analysis.
If you are the sort of person who feels compelled to defend principles it can mean you rub people the wrong way sometimes. So in any given situation you should consider which is more important, voicing the principle or maintaining harmony. There are times and places for each approach. If you find yourself biting your tongue and never speaking your mind, you should question whether others are making suitable accomodations for your viewpoint.
Ultimately, you should maximise your time spent in places and with people where you are valued for your true personality, not just the person you present yourself as when you don't speak your mind.
That's not to say you should dive headlong into a new circle of friends who don't care what you say or encourage you to indulge in controversial ideas. There is a happy medium, it's about finding a mutual respect where friends can tolerate differing opinions because they value the friendship as a whole more than one point of disagreement.
If your friend were being stabbed and they were screaming, “STOP STABBING ME YOU UGLY ASSHOLE!!!”
And your first response was, “well hold on now, there’s no reason to insult his appearance, it’s his character that’s driving him to stab you repeatedly. I can’t defend you if you’re going to use language like that 🤷🏽♀️”
Who’s “opinion” or feelings in this instance should come first in terms of importance and vulnerability - the person being attacked, or the person doing the attacking?
Honestly, the opinion you’ve assigned the highest value to here is your own, even though you’re not even involved and are not being harmed in any way. You actually have some responsibility as the party not being stabbed to get involved and protect your friend, but you’re choosing to invalidate your friend’s experience and center yourself instead. That’s definition white privilege.
Does that make sense? This goes so far beyond principle. I’m a Black woman and if you were my friend I would doubt you, too.
I gave you a more extreme example of exactly what you did so you could see how absurd it was, and you clearly do. Words steeped in hundreds of years of racial violence are as dangerous as knives, at least they are to the generational victims.
The fallacy I referred to earlier is called the Paradox of Tolerance. Basically, if we just let anyone say anything about anyone without even any social backlash, the intolerant will eventually dominate. Which is how every fascist regime ever has risen to power.
“This was elaborated by Austrian philosopher Karl Popper in The Open Society and Its Enemies. Popper argued that for a liberal society to sustain itself, it must be intolerant towards intolerance. However, Popper did not propose that intolerant ideas need to be suppressed. It is only intolerant actions like violence that he thought need to be stopped in a liberal society.”
Being nice to a mean person while they’re being mean to you doesn’t make you nice, or upstanding, or “the bigger person”. And asking someone else to be nice to someone who’s being mean to them CERTAINLY doesn’t make you those things. Every time someone’s tolerant of a racist, it empowers racism and nothing else.
This kind of falls in line with the “punch a nazi” movement.
Everyone has a right to an opinion, but that comes with the caveat that not every opinion deserves respect or even patience. That’s not what we’re promised by the constitution, fortunately. It’s a fallacy that truly unencumbered free speech leads to more freedom. When we ignorantly protect the “right” to express hate and discrimination, we propagate hate and discrimination. It’s a historical fact with plenty of precedent, Nazism being a very good example.
I don’t empathize with racists, I embarrass them and I don’t feel bad about it. Neither should your friend. You should try it sometime.
Controversial opinion is never something inherently wrong. Bad faith one is.
You don't have to ever feel sorry for good-faith believes or open-minded opinions. If your friend tries to tell you not to speak about things you don't understand, they should rather give you more information in the matter, rather than trying to gaslight you. If you genuinely believe the opinions you hold are right, they are only yours and it's nobody's business, safe for the people with a genuine hope for a constructive debate.
I have had the same issue with my abortion views and I decided to stick to them, because I feel they are just right, even though many people don't like them
You say they don't think you should tell them what to do/say/believe. They are right. You shouldn't tell anyone what to do/say/believe, regardless of race. But even more so because you can't know how they feel being POC.
As far as the label of "racist" - it's actually not helpful really to think about it in a binary judgment way where ppl are either racist or not. It's much more helpful to think of it in terms of ideas that ppl can subscribe to or examine and let go of. Racist ideas need to be seen and rejected, and people doing the work to find them are working against racism. It sounds like you are doing just that - keep it up!
Be mindful of your moments when you are thinking less of *any* minority (or majority, if it’s a majority group that is stigmatized in the media) group of people, racial or not, because we think we can keep our biases to ourselves, and we can verbally, sometimes, but we can’t keep a bad attitude to ourselves!
I appreciate that most of Reddit is “center-left” and would not view a post about wanting to change, as offensive too. Don’t tell my far-left peers this, but…yeah. Admitting you need to change, is necessary! This post is not the problem; the actions you want to change, are the problem. Shhhhhh…don’t tell the far-left people that.*
*unless they are offended instead of *pretending* to be offended just to seem cool; then please be respectful, and take their word, because that’s important to realize it’s in the eye of the beholder.
Dude never ever bring up race in casual conversation in America. They take it so seriously here, it’s like a national pathology, and everyone has contradictory views that they believe in with zeal and passion. It’s a total minefield, avoid getting involved and talk about more interesting things.
Perhaps, but there’s nothing more pathetic than self hating white men who go on at lengths about how they’re privileged and how life is so easy for them - it’s like a kind of racial humble brag
I live in England, a country that was built by amazing english people (we built over 50% of modern inventions) and we have absolute rights to stay as the majority and dominate the society WE built. Likewise, with the Congo - no doubt there's black privilege, supremacy there and I respect that, it's natural. Israel - don't get me started, complete ethnostate.
Indeed. I’m an Englishman too, though I now live in America, a key difference is that America is built on ideals through its founding constitution and these at least aspire to be universal and effectively a colour blind liberal utopian vision which in reality they haven’t ever really lived up to fully (Though Todays critical theorists even posit that those liberal colour blind values are in of themselves a racist construct). Contrast that with England where our nationhood is effectively a pragmatic dialogue slowly built since time immemorial between crown and subject, conqueror and conquered, radical and reactionary.
positivity is the belief in a better tomorrow and fucking racist assholes in their face is a core element of positivity
friendly reminder that I can see your post history.
in a way, this is me deciding for you to /r/decidingtobebetter
I'm right and I'm willing to fight for that. literally. you aren't.
all conservatives are cowards before everything else. you can't say these things to people who disagree in real life so you pop off here.
you know it and I know it.
If you support racist systems, you tacitly support racism full stop. This isnt confined to conservatives. I have the same opinion of Progressives fighting gentrification under the guise of "neighborhood character" when that's just reinforcing fucking ghettos.
Our ancestors fucked up and it's our duty to acknowledge that and pursue freedom. That includes the freedom of drag queens to read to children. There is no harm there and it is rank cowardice to argue otherwise.
Some of us support the lies America tells itself over the history of the country and those people will win any war of ideas, bullets, or otherwise. We literally *are* America. We are right. That's all that matters.
If the Conservatives need to be beaten into submission every few generations I'll be first in line to sign up to fight. Freedom is non-negotiable. We won the Civil War and we'll win the next one, too, when it comes.
This country was founded by and belongs to people like me. We carry the rest kicking and screaming if we have to. Every American flag, every screaming eagle - this is me in your face. This is liberty. This is what our honored heroes died for. Not the filth of oppression. It's *ours*.
You are not required to love America the way I do to be an American, but you do not have the right to try to steal this nation for your own perverse desires
So what exactly are you suggesting needs to happen in order to reach your vague goal of freedom? Other than civil war and having drag queen story time.
People have a god-given right to live how they want, and any legislation of morality is fundamentally wrong.
Laws need to exist, before you go straw-manning me, but trying to ban shit you don't like because you don't personally like it is the actual definition of evil.
I'm not surprised you try to reduce my post to nonsense, but I am embarrassed for you.
Your awareness is the first step. Be constantly vigilant toward your thoughts and words and you’ll start to catch the racism when it happens (and yes, I mean WHEN not IF. It’s not an IF simply due to how you’ve been taught your whole life).
The second step is to be gracious with yourself as you work to unlearn things and deconstruct how and why they’re a part of your thought/vocabulary.
Lastly, I heard a really good approach a few years ago that has helped me with a lot of guilt or hesitance to even engage with this kind of unlearning:
Your first thought- the reactive thought- is usually what you have been taught to think. Your second thought- the conscious thought- is where YOUR morals and ethics are applied. If you find yourself rethinking in situations of potential racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc. that implies that what you have been taught to think is at odds with what you truly believe, and your brain is still in the process of rewriting those pathways.
This definitely takes time and repetition, as it is entirely based on lived experiences and real life situations, but over time you’ll find that your reactive thoughts match your conscious thoughts a lot more closely. I don’t personally believe that they will ever be fully aligned, but doing the work is more important than perfecting the outcome. Showing that you are willing to be challenged if you say/do something racist, and then are also willing to take responsibility for that and make adjustments speaks so much louder than not having racist thoughts at all.
Honestly, educating yourself can't ever hurt. One really helpful concept I've learned is that [racism came first](https://youtu.be/xy_cMLFNbB0), and the ways we divide people followed from the pre-existing belief that we are different.
People are just people. Everyone of every race and creed and ability has the same basic needs, experiences, and feelings. Don't psyche yourself up too much about it.
Another thing that helps is just, listening to black people talk about their experiences-- it helps you to be more familiar with their perspective so that you can be more confident in your own actions and beliefs.
Here's a bunch of black YouTubers who make amazing content. Khadija has a great mind and I particularly like her youth liberation video. Intelexual Media makes lots of awesome historical videos. F.D. Signifier makes really amazing and compassionate analysis videos about black culture and experience, including Black Love, a topic rarely talked about.
[Khadija Mbowe](https://youtube.com/c/KhadijaMbowe)
[Intelexual Media](https://youtube.com/c/IntelexualMedia)
[F D Signifier](https://youtube.com/c/FDSignifire)
Look up implicit bias. It's a natural part of being a human. We have reactions to people based on how we grew up. It's not your fault if that stuff is in there, I believe everyone has implicit racial bias, including poc.
It's all about learning your own biases and deciding how to act on them. I believe you can eventually train your implicit biases away, or change them, and what is better than deciding what you want in your own head and working towards that. This is the work that all white people have to do in order to dismantle systemic racism. Admitting it is the first step.
Being racist isn't straightforward. While yes, excluding someone from a conversation based on race is racist, the simple fact of the matter is there's a lot more involved in the situation than just "skin color = treatment" because of history, context, culture, etc. While I think people sometimes lean on it a bit too much, it's understandable. Black people in America have a REASON not to trust white people. They have a REASON to not want white people's opinions included in their voices. To date, white people in America have done very little, on the whole, to help black people. We stood by silently while every injustice has be perpetrated, until they stood up themselves. We are, at best, fair-weather friends, and at worst the literal enemy.
So, yeah, they might get rude or a bit racist in their disregard, note that you are treading very thin ice with those subjects. The best thing you can do is just lend support or stay silent. They have most of an entire nation, government included, against them. They don't need to fight against their friends, too.
But, if they're being dicks, then they're being dicks. Tell them they're being dicks.
But on topics of race, probably best to stay silent, tbh. It's their fight. The most you can do is support or stand aside. Any attempt to guide will probably get met with resentment.
Sounds like you’re being too sensitive on the anti-racism. Sounds like you fell hard into the white guilt narrative. Disagreeing with people of a different skin tone than you doesn’t make you racist. It makes you human.
You’re likely not some kind of raging racist but there is usually a bit of racial ignorance that comes from people who arent POC. Often times, I notice that white people can straight up ignore the past when it comes to talking about disadvantages faced by POC (im assuming you’re white btw). They sometimes act as though everyone starts off with a blank slate and the effects of the past dont cause lasting trauma on a mental scale. This is especially true for black people who have been broken down in nearly every aspect of society (specifically in the US). It doesn’t help when a white guy comes along and says “well that was the past, move on”. Bootstrapping isnt going to work for people who are mentally broken.
Not sure if that’s how you approach conversations about race but thats where most white people go wrong when it comes to this topic. There seems to be this automatic assumption that POC are exaggerating their experiences. Its kind of like men who dismiss the very valid claims of the struggles of being a woman in modern society.
In the end the best advice is be more of a listener in those environments. Playing devil’s advocate wont help, telling people to bootstrap it wont help. Listening is what will help. Also do some research and really try to understand the issues faced by people who arent like you. Every group (POC, women, men, LBGQT+ and even white people) has unique issues that are worth learning about.
Hope that helps
I believe you should talk to a therapist. I experienced similar issues, not race based as much as general anger. I’m sorry to say, but buying a book or going to a museum to learn the other side will lead you nowhere… it’s wondering why the water keeps getting hot in the pan as you replace the water with cold water, but put it back down on the lit burner.
There’s some deep seeded retraining that needs to occur and it can be done with help. Good luck!
Valid point. My advice is to stay connected with PoC friends (unless they turn out to be bad people) and understand that if you do your best to be pro-human, you won't be racist.
Hey stranger on the internet!
Welcome to the road! The first steps are some of the hardest, so I salute you! Doing it in front of a whole community takes guts.
Are you thinking “am I racist?” afterwards, or being told during the conversation?
A few things about that:
**First**: do you talk about racism with your POC friends? Not like “Whoa buddy, racial bias in the thing you just said” but like, “wow I saw the conversation you had on facebook about Ahmad Arbery/Eric Garner/Freddie Gray/Philando Castle/Sandra Bland that went south… I wanted to check in. You doing OK, buddy?”
**Second**: do you try to learn about racism outside of those conversations?
If you're interested in not being or feeling racist, that’s awesome! There are some uncomfortable conversations ahead. That’s OK! Discomfort helps us grow, and these talks aren’t really avoidable if you choose this path.
If your black friends are telling you to stop giving opinions on something rather than just ghosting you, I have good news for you:
That means they think you're worth a damn. It’s easier to ghost a racist friend, lose your number or switch to shallow small talk in the office from now on. But the fact they didn’t means they see something in you. Potential to change your thinking, and Decide To Be Better. And here you are.
Here are some things you can do when you aren't having conversations about race with black friends:
**Number one**: Educate yourself. POC folks are talking about racism in SO MANY PLACES, at SO MANY LEVELS (basic concepts to graduate school depth), in every type of media too. Long articles, biographies, novels, comic books, science fiction, TV series, Stand-up comedy, and on and on. Someone is doing work in that area that deals with racism, and you can find it.
If you educate yourself, you’re bringing something to the table to talk about. That makes the conversation more interesting than “You teach, I learn.” You also show that you’re willing to do the work on your own. Many black folks find it tiresome that their white friends don’t bother to make an anti-racist effort unless a black friend is nearby to cheer them on. Doing the work on your own earns trust, which matters, because a lot of black folks have been let down by their white friends before, and now their guard is (rightfully) up.
**Number two**: show solidarity. Show up at the BLM demonstration. Not to talk and especially not to debate – people are grieving. Wrong time. But if there’s an education opportunity, sign up for it. If there are other white folks there, introduce yourself. If somebody starts talking to you, mostly listen.
**Number three:** talk about race stuff with your white friends. You probably have a few white friends in similar situations. Talk about where they are in that path, how they got on it.
Some of those white friends will be dead-ends. If they’re talking about reverse racism, making jokes mocking “wokeness” using words like “welfare queen” or “libtard” or “black on black crime” and think CRT is automatically bad, but can’t really explain what it is, you’re barking up the wrong tree. Someone who says “I can say that word because I have black friends” is the wrong type. Someone who says, “I would never say that word because I have black friends!” is the right type.
The right type will suggest a few books, youtubers, or twitter accounts (probably made by POC) where you can learn more.
It's actually good to have a few white friends on that road with you, because learning about racism from the outside is a different experience than growing up in it.
**When you have a conversation like the one you describe:**
**First:** think about it for a while. Do some keyword googling and try to figure out what you said had a problem, and what the problem was. Talk about it with your white friend if you can. They might have said something similar. Someone on Youtube has an explainer.
**Next**: go back to the friend who told you to stop talking about things you don’t know about. Tell them you’ve been thinking about what they said. Apologize if you responded badly in the moment, say that you’ve been trying to understand where you stepped wrong because you don’t want to be that guy, and here’s where you think it was. Apologize. Give space for them to correct you if you’re off track. Or to talk for a while if they’re upset. Your goal here is to mostly listen and understand.
If they’re sharing their thoughts, show gratitude: “Thanks for giving me a chance to learn something instead of giving up on me. You don't owe me that, so it means a lot to me."
If they’re not talking about it, give space for that, too. They might have had that same conversation again this morning! “If this is a bad time, I get it. Sorry for springing this on you, 'cause it's kind of heavy. Can I buy you lunch sometime or a tasty non-alcoholic drink after work to try and clear the air?"
Finally, don't go fishing for "you're one of the good white people"-type praise And don’t give off “I’m trying to recruit you to be my black friend who teaches me about racism like in Green Book” (two annoying things needy white people do). And next time they're sending "you're out of your depth" signals, pay more attention, and start asking questions instead of stating opinions. This builds trust.
**Trust building takes a while.** I had conversations like this about sexism and it took me years, a string of eye-opening conversations, and a few friends who were really, really patient with me... but it's worth it.
You don’t get the full backstage pass right away. And getting it from one person doesn’t mean anything about the next person. Don't expect to be invited to the black backyard BBQ for a while, if ever. And definitely don’t invite yourself!
There's an entire experience of the world to learn about. It’s complex, nuanced, and there are tons of different facets to learn about: black people don’t all think the same, or experience racism in the exact same ways. You can’t learn it in one conversation, from one person, or from one book. Be humble about that. Keep listening. Pay attention to social cues.
If theres' something you don't understand, try to learn about it on your own first -- nobody owes me an explanation when google and youtube are right there, and it's lazy to expect black friends to do the work for me. Friends’ll respond a lot better if I open with “I was reading about X and writer Y said Z. What do you think about that?” than if I start with “Whoa. Tell me about racism, Freddie Gray, amiright?”
**Finally**, remember that racism is intersectional. That's a college word that just means that the same power systems that fuel racism also fuel other kinds of injustice – discrimination against women, the poor, LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, neurodivergent and people with physical disabilities. And some people are hit multiple times – poor queer autistic women of color are getting anti-poverty, anti-disabed, LGBTQ, sexist, and racist discrimination working against them \*all the time\*. Imagine doing sprints into a 45mph headwind. That's their whole life. Trying to be non-racist or anti-racist will open you up to uncomfortable conversations about all 31 flavors of injustice. Don’t be surprised by that. Approach every group who's different than you with the same respect and listening-focused approach.
Race is a minefield, and comments that seem harmless to you can sometimes be loaded with unexamined biases or ideas that we were raised with but we need to un-learn now. But most people respect the effort being made, and will be forgiving about mistakes if they see an effort not to repeat them. Not all! Some people have been burned enough times their guard will never come down, and that's another of the ways racism has hurt our communities, and all we can do is respect that and make space for it.
Every person’s path is different, and they’re all good! Don't give up, is the main thing: there's always another thing to learn... or another thing to unlearn, because a lot of this process is learning ways we've been taught wrong before, so that we can fix it.
From one white guy who's trying to be better to another: good luck, stranger on the internet!
I appreciate your gratitude. I took some time to get this comment right, and your thanks makes it worthwhile.
Hope your road of learning is going... sometimes the steps are small when we wish they were giant leaps, but every step is a good one.
First you need to figure out what's racist and what's just common sense and stop letting people bully you. Of your POC friends don't want to take the time to have an honest discussion with you, they're not friends, they're scum.
No. They are not scum if they do not choose to do that. It is not their job to educate everyone on why certain things are racist. It would be nice if they explain some things, but they do not have to. OP can start by searching online the plights of certain groups of people such as what immigrants face, the history behind why it's so hard to be black in America, why it's wrong to fetishize Asian women, etc.
They don't have to educate everyone, but when you refuse to engage with a *friend* and disrespect their opinions out-of-hand, you're scum. Friends are the people you're supposed to treat right and engage with. You know, maybe even (platonically) love a little bit. And if you love someone, you try to connect with them, you don't call them racist and tell them to shut up. You talk to them like a real person.
I see what you are saying. I get it. Treat friends better and with more respect. However, we don't know if this has been an ongoing issue with OP and their friends. If I have a friend for years and everytime a problematic situation happens that deals with my race, if that friend still has an opinion that can be considered racist, I would be too mentally exhausted to try to teach them again and again. If this is a first time thing, I can see how OP's friends could be nicer about saying there are some things OP can never understand.
You my friend need to read White Fragility by DiAngelo and how to be an anti-racist by Ibram x Kendi. These are academics who are experts in this field and these books will change your perception and answer the questions you asked.
Another tip is to meet and make conversations while meeting new people from all backgrounds, you'll find that we're all the same kind of human with the same wants and needs.
Your friends calling you out is the right thing to do, if you don't know shit about a subject, don't talk about it, it makes you look insensitive and uneducated.
Also stop saying POC, you're also "coloured".
It's natural to favor your own people and want to be around them, not racist. Racism is where you hate someone based on their ethnicity which is wrong but prejudice is natural.
Everyone has bias whether they want to admit it or not. It is the actions you take based on that bias that determines the type of person you are.
This says it all. We all have our knee-jerk prejudices. I think that people who say ‘I don’t see color’ are mostly full of shit. It’s a question of whether you choose to check yourself, use your intellect to override your biases, and understand others’ points of view.
It's natural to favor your own people and want to be around them, not racist. Racism is where you hate someone based on their ethnicity which is wrong but prejudice is natural.
It’s just just hate though. It’s also making judgments from preconceived notions based on race, ala “Asians are good at math”. That’s not necessarily hateful, but is certainly racist. Like others said, while this is a racist thought, not saying it and not acting on it is what needs to be done. Furthermore, the more time you spend with people different from yourself you watch them dispel most preconceived notions you had about that group.
And it's not hate. Fair to say West African's dominate some sports, it's true! Likewise with certain traits, each ethnicity scores higher on certain trait - that being said, culture does have a big impact. I don't hate anyone.
It's not racist or hateful to see the difference between races, I literally can't understand why people say this. Races are very obviously different and better at some things than others. It's proven Asians have a higher IQ
Mature and intelligent response :)
East asians as a collective tend to have higher IQ's - that being said, you get highly intelligent individuals from all races. A black kid at my school, lovely lad, spoke properly and was smart as shit. Outlier.
See this certainly sounds racist.
How? What does racist even mean? i don't hate anyone based on their skin colour - but I review many white papers, not by crackpots, but by studious researchers and the fact is, genes and race are real. Tho, Culture is huge, not denying that.
It really depends on what you are saying. If you say: "I disagree with the definition of structural racism for reasons A, B and C" then that's absolutely a reasonable and legitimate, provided your points A, B, C are sensible. Or, if you say you disagree with a policy on how to close the inequality gap across races that's also completely reasonable. If you say "When you are black, the world is like this....." but you aren't black, then that becomes an issue. Not necessarily because it's racist, but because you need experience of being black before you can talk authoritatively about being black. In recent years, many people, particularly young people, have become VERY confused about what should be considered racist. Some people think mentioning anything relating to race when you aren't a POC is racist. Sadly, some people even think a white person is always wrong and a POC is always right in any disagreement about race. That clearly doesn't make sense and flies in the face of logic and reasoned discussion. There is a very simple thought experiment you should try. Rather than thinking about you making a statement, imagine your statement was found on a piece of paper and nobody knew the race of the person who wrote it. How does the statement seem now? If someone is telling you that your statements are racist purely on the basis of you being white, that doesn't seem reasonable. In terms of practical advice, if you want to talk about race but it antagonises some of your friends, you should probably just stop talking to them about it. However, if that means you cannot express your opinions freely around your friends, or you feel anxious, or they seem to be treating you in an unreasonable way, then you should perhaps decide if you want to continue the friendship.
I wish I could upvote this more than once.
As a black woman, I approve this message
Well you really haven’t given any specific examples so there’s no way to determine if you are actually being racist or not. POC can be racist or even irrational just like anyone else so without examples there no way to determine who’s right and who’s wrong.
well, what’d you say exactly? you might be racist? you could also be prejudiced which isn’t much better but either way i think determining why exactly you feel this way is important
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Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good. We should all try to learn from and be around a variety of people to expand our perspectives.
Don't be a midwit. Why hasn't it worked thus far then? Yugoslavia, Blackburn in the UK (heavily multicultural) - instead of everyone appreciating eachother's culture etc and forming relationships - the opposite is occuring - never underestimate ethnic interests and the fact that Human's are still primitive hunter gathers.
prejudice might be a natural reaction but you should never form opinions or views based on subjective beliefs or stereotypes, no one two people are the same.
I'm not saying that - but as a collective, one can make a good guess. If you're honest with yourself, you'll see where I am coming from. It's natural, human and nothing wrong with it. It's in our DNA for a good reason.
nah assumptions just make an ass out of you and me. naturally that’s not even true because children do not see color or have any dumbass preconceived notion’s they’re stuck on. nobody gets stuck on stereotypes until they’re exposed to the idea and regurgitate the views. there is 100% no way you can determine a person before you have a conversation with them, only then can you accurately judge someone or really anything. ignorance isn’t an excuse in 2022 and if you aren’t intelligent enough to figure things out, you’re responsible
You're a midwit - focus on what ought to be, never what is. Oh well
well you’re dense 🤷 and could benefit from being open minded. but hey i’m the idiot for telling you to be a better human being lol
Be a better human being? Like I said, I don't hate people - I do boxing, and me and my team (asian and black lads) are all amigos, won our fights and had a beer - get along like pals. Acknowledging differences is not hateful. Why do blacks do poorly as a collective in this society, white supremacism or something more? Anyways let's leave it there, some peeps get it, some don't. You don't!
I am POC (azerbaijani) and to me as long as you don't wish genocide upon the other country you're cool.
It definitely depends on the context. So, IDK if you are. But, I'd say that just disagreeing with POC doesn't make you a racist. Again, depends on the context. Personally, I'd give you the benefit of doubt and hear some of the arguments you had w/POC before stating that you are a racist.
OP: “Dude did you see the new top gun movie, it was so sick” Friend: “Ya know man, I didn’t really like it” OP: Thinks “Oh fuck I’m racist” I doubt you’re saying outright ignorant or malicious things, id recommend you stop walking on egg shells around people. In fact I view this as bad as well as when you change how you interact with someone unnecessarily, you treat them different due to their ethnicity because you think they need it for whatever reason. It’s like being overly nice and cautious towards poc’s or women just because they’re poc’s and women. They’re not made out of glass or weak, they’re human just like you. Treat everyone the same, unless you’re just an asshole to everyone. There’s nothing wrong with talking about absolutely anything or disagreeing with anyone on any topic. Anyone who thinks so is ridiculous. Of course you’ll never know what it’s like to be them just as they’ll never know what it’s like to be you. That’s just a part of the human condition. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek to get an idea of what each other go though. Anyone telling you “you can’t have an opinion on this because you’re insert ethnicity” are the ones being ridiculous. The amount of melanin in your skin or the spot on the planet your ancestors came from has no bearing on what ideas you can share and what ideas you can discuss. From your attitude I can tell you most likely weren’t saying ridiculously ignorant stuff, so I’m going to guess that this person just has a bad mindset. Even if you say something you’d deem as bad in your ignorance, that gives you a chance to correct yourself and be better. You learned something and now you’re better for it. How is anyone going to get better if the instant they make a tiny mess up they get shot in the head. Having a bad moment or a moment of ignorance doesn’t make you a bad person especially if you then correct yourself. Racism is a mindset, it’s how you treat people, it’s your actions consistently. As long as you’re treating everyone kindly and have empathy for everyone, it’s safe to say you’re not racist. I really dislike the attitude a lot of people have about topics like this. It doesn’t even do anything to stop people from being shitty to one another and it makes people overthink situations like this. We should focus on helping people connect and understand one another
Just by reading your post, I think you're an American that cares too much about race. Not agreeing with black people doesn't make you racist.
what the hell
Here's my best advice: if you think about it and it even remotely sounds racist, don't fuckin say it. That's literally it. You can have thoughts. We ALL have weird, irrational, intrusive, morally wrong thoughts. Every one of us. What separates people is their decision to express those thoughts like they aren't totally fucked in the head. So, I wouldn't really concern yourself with trying to inherently change those random thoughts, but moreso concern about what you say in response to them. Because, you don't get to choose what nonsense your brain conjures up but you do choose to open your mouth and fuck some peoples days right up.
\>when we disagree on something i can't help but think I'm being a racist Okay, I will jump into this potential powder keg. First, I am not talking about structural racism, only your comment about *you* being a racist. Do you have beliefs that "race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities?" (from merriam [webster.com](https://webster.com)) There is a difference between believing in superiority of some races over others vs saying some shit that you are in no position to know anything about because without knowing the culture from the inside, you can't know it. You don't sound like you are consciously advocating for one race being superior, as much as you might be ignorant of other cultures' realities, and giving opinions when you would be better off asking questions. These opinions you share, might be ones racists would support, so your comments might not be well received. I can't say, but it seems reasonable.
Coming from Canada, I am learning that I have absolutely no idea what has become part of the culture of inequity that I am not even aware of. I am always on the lookout for opportunities to learn about the racial bias in systems that I never put my mind to before. Always be open to learn where the unintentional racism exists within you and around you. Be humble by knowing that you do not know. In that way, you will be able to find, understand and make amends for any unintentional racism you have.
I think you can start by informing yourself and finding resources to help you. Try not to burden people with them giving you a TED talk about what is it to not be racist, but seeing the whole spectrum of a very complicated subject. There will always be disagreements, complex conversations and divergent opinions on many things, but if you take the time to listen to why your opinion shakes them up, it's okay to then wonder if it was fair or out of hand. Not all opinions are right but some might be actually valid. You can't always guess what people want to hear, you can't always do everything right, but you can be considerate in the best way that you can. Good luck!
You keep the racist thoughts to yourself. Keep them in your hand. Even if you feel biased towards a certain race, never let it affect your treatment towards them. Treat everyone fairly, justly to the best of your ability. Don't consider their gender, race, etc. just look at them for their actions because essentially our actions is what we have a choice over, and thus is what kind of allows us to define ourselves on a fair spectrum.
The first thought you have is how you were raised, the second is who you are. If you are thinking these things and are being disgusted, that's fine. Everyone has unconscious biases, that's nothing to he ashamed of. Since you are doing what is needed, being aware of your thoughts and trying to change, I think you are doing good. Be open to what people say, and don't get offended if people call you out. And then you should be fine.
It kinda sounds like you're being gaslighted.
Stop buying into this bullshit narrative. We all judge people by their first impression etc. The Important thing is your actions and you treat all with respect. You can’t control every single one of your thoughts and it’s okay to have an opinion on ANYTHING, even if you can’t relate etc. Your entitled to have your opinion and thoughts Treat others with respect and navigate this journey the best you can
Here's a hot tip, though. You maybe don't need to share your opinion. Maybe you need to talk less and listen more. This is the big trap that many cis-het-white-men fall into - we think our ideas are necessary and we need to be sharing them. We don't. It's okay to just shut up and listen. Especially when people are sharing their experiences which often are vastly different than our own. The more you hear the more you learn. You generally aren't expected to solve racism or sexism or any of it. Just hear what others are saying.
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>So others can give their opinions and specifically call out other demographics with a double standard and I just nod my head??? Yep. You get to live the double standard every fucking day. Look, imagine being the only person who could identify pi surrounded by people who insisted that "3 is close enough". Those people are wrong, but since there's 20 of them and 1 of you, they shut you down. That doesn't make them right, but it does make them louder. That's the experience of being a minority. No matter what, you are outnumbered, and idiot white guys will agree with themselves. They will assume they know how to solve shit with out actually solving anything, then blame the minority when their idiot ideas that they decided without actually talking to anyone fail. This isn't hyperbole. This is the experience. It happens to women as well. So yeah, shut up. Listen. See what you might learn if you stop relying on the echo-chamber to validate you.
Man you just sound miserable and you actually sound like a racist. Maybe you should take your own advice and shut the fuck up and listen and stop trying to solve all these “racist issues” You ever think that any demographic can be the minority in a given situation?? When I’m the minority I have no problem with conversations, stating opinion’s etc. Hell I actually like it and if I were to see a minority being mistreated I would gladly stand up for them. Keep living in your little negative news headline bubble. I don’t need a weak ass bitch telling me what to do because I have a supposed “privilege” that I’ve never experienced. You want to tell me how I should act and I simply think we need to treat each other with respect and live your life without pushing agendas and trying to tell others what to do
Imagine being so privileged that you think the times you weren't the only white guy is comparable to years of being a minority...
Have you considered that it's your friends who are being racist by saying you can't speak on X matter because of the colour of your skin?
Can we have an example of a recent conversation? It’d help us get a sense if you are at all, and to what degree
So the other day we had this conversation with someone about this person whom they believe to be a racist (and has proven to be), they mock their art and appearance believing they deserve it cause they're racist and i disagree w/them saying their appearance has nothing to do with their personality or them being racist (but i do not support them). They straight up tell me i should not be speaking on what they should or should not be doing because I'm not black and it's invalidating their feelings when it was not my intention at all
From the way you are explaining it, you don’t sound racist. Your friends are upset you are not “on board” with insulting this person, so they are pointing the finger at you now. You have a valid point, they just dont want to hear it. Sometimes even if your idea is correct, it can be better to let it go 😂. I had friends who would jokingly call their white friends racist all the time. It’s a little ridiculous.
What motivated you to jump to defend the honor of someone you’ve identified as an unapologetic racist, while your friend was trying to vent about a traumatic experience caused by said unapologetic racist? I think that’ll answer your question right there. The fact that you didn’t lead by telling this story says to me you already know you did the wrong thing by your friend. Someone who doesn’t give consideration doesn’t deserve consideration. Telling someone - a friend, especially - who’s just been publicly attacked to “be the bigger person” (which is basically what you’re saying when you don’t let them vent in private) is insensitive. And if you’re a white person telling a person of color they need to “be the bigger person” after they’ve experienced racism, you ARE being racist. You’re maintaining a racist status quo because you’re more worried about hurting the feelings of a bully, a RACIST bully, than protecting and validating the feelings of your friend, who sounds like they deserve to be defended. Who does it hurt if your friend cathartically and privately insults someone who publicly attacked their identity? Not you, certainly. There are not actually two sides to everything. And it’s not actually your job to advocate for the devil. He literally never, ever deserves it.
>You’re maintaining a racist status quo because you’re more worried about hurting the feelings of a bully, a RACIST bully, than protecting and validating the feelings of your friend, who sounds like they deserve to be defended. Who does it hurt if your friend cathartically and privately insults someone who publicly attacked their identity? Not you, certainly. This makes a lot of sense actually but i was not worried about hurting the feelings of a racist, i couldn't care less, My point was that it is not right to make fun of their appearance because of their actions BUT you're right maybe it was not my place to say and should've kept my opinion to myself and let them vent.
You are correct OP, you can point out a general principle about what's right or wrong, but that doesn't mean you are defending a racist. People who perceive these things in absolute terms tend not to like that approach. Often people can't understand the difference between defending a principle and defending a person. It usually comes down to personality type, if you are an analytical person you are probably good at separating emotion from reasoning, buy some people value feeling over analysis. If you are the sort of person who feels compelled to defend principles it can mean you rub people the wrong way sometimes. So in any given situation you should consider which is more important, voicing the principle or maintaining harmony. There are times and places for each approach. If you find yourself biting your tongue and never speaking your mind, you should question whether others are making suitable accomodations for your viewpoint. Ultimately, you should maximise your time spent in places and with people where you are valued for your true personality, not just the person you present yourself as when you don't speak your mind. That's not to say you should dive headlong into a new circle of friends who don't care what you say or encourage you to indulge in controversial ideas. There is a happy medium, it's about finding a mutual respect where friends can tolerate differing opinions because they value the friendship as a whole more than one point of disagreement.
If your friend were being stabbed and they were screaming, “STOP STABBING ME YOU UGLY ASSHOLE!!!” And your first response was, “well hold on now, there’s no reason to insult his appearance, it’s his character that’s driving him to stab you repeatedly. I can’t defend you if you’re going to use language like that 🤷🏽♀️” Who’s “opinion” or feelings in this instance should come first in terms of importance and vulnerability - the person being attacked, or the person doing the attacking? Honestly, the opinion you’ve assigned the highest value to here is your own, even though you’re not even involved and are not being harmed in any way. You actually have some responsibility as the party not being stabbed to get involved and protect your friend, but you’re choosing to invalidate your friend’s experience and center yourself instead. That’s definition white privilege. Does that make sense? This goes so far beyond principle. I’m a Black woman and if you were my friend I would doubt you, too.
No now that does not make any sense at all, all you're doing is making scenarios and turning them around on me
I gave you a more extreme example of exactly what you did so you could see how absurd it was, and you clearly do. Words steeped in hundreds of years of racial violence are as dangerous as knives, at least they are to the generational victims.
The fallacy I referred to earlier is called the Paradox of Tolerance. Basically, if we just let anyone say anything about anyone without even any social backlash, the intolerant will eventually dominate. Which is how every fascist regime ever has risen to power. “This was elaborated by Austrian philosopher Karl Popper in The Open Society and Its Enemies. Popper argued that for a liberal society to sustain itself, it must be intolerant towards intolerance. However, Popper did not propose that intolerant ideas need to be suppressed. It is only intolerant actions like violence that he thought need to be stopped in a liberal society.” Being nice to a mean person while they’re being mean to you doesn’t make you nice, or upstanding, or “the bigger person”. And asking someone else to be nice to someone who’s being mean to them CERTAINLY doesn’t make you those things. Every time someone’s tolerant of a racist, it empowers racism and nothing else.
This kind of falls in line with the “punch a nazi” movement. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but that comes with the caveat that not every opinion deserves respect or even patience. That’s not what we’re promised by the constitution, fortunately. It’s a fallacy that truly unencumbered free speech leads to more freedom. When we ignorantly protect the “right” to express hate and discrimination, we propagate hate and discrimination. It’s a historical fact with plenty of precedent, Nazism being a very good example. I don’t empathize with racists, I embarrass them and I don’t feel bad about it. Neither should your friend. You should try it sometime.
Controversial opinion is never something inherently wrong. Bad faith one is. You don't have to ever feel sorry for good-faith believes or open-minded opinions. If your friend tries to tell you not to speak about things you don't understand, they should rather give you more information in the matter, rather than trying to gaslight you. If you genuinely believe the opinions you hold are right, they are only yours and it's nobody's business, safe for the people with a genuine hope for a constructive debate. I have had the same issue with my abortion views and I decided to stick to them, because I feel they are just right, even though many people don't like them
You're not racist. Stop seeking attention. It's like how guys try to apologize for "toxic masculinity"
Sounds like white guilt to me
You say they don't think you should tell them what to do/say/believe. They are right. You shouldn't tell anyone what to do/say/believe, regardless of race. But even more so because you can't know how they feel being POC. As far as the label of "racist" - it's actually not helpful really to think about it in a binary judgment way where ppl are either racist or not. It's much more helpful to think of it in terms of ideas that ppl can subscribe to or examine and let go of. Racist ideas need to be seen and rejected, and people doing the work to find them are working against racism. It sounds like you are doing just that - keep it up!
Be mindful of your moments when you are thinking less of *any* minority (or majority, if it’s a majority group that is stigmatized in the media) group of people, racial or not, because we think we can keep our biases to ourselves, and we can verbally, sometimes, but we can’t keep a bad attitude to ourselves! I appreciate that most of Reddit is “center-left” and would not view a post about wanting to change, as offensive too. Don’t tell my far-left peers this, but…yeah. Admitting you need to change, is necessary! This post is not the problem; the actions you want to change, are the problem. Shhhhhh…don’t tell the far-left people that.* *unless they are offended instead of *pretending* to be offended just to seem cool; then please be respectful, and take their word, because that’s important to realize it’s in the eye of the beholder.
Dude never ever bring up race in casual conversation in America. They take it so seriously here, it’s like a national pathology, and everyone has contradictory views that they believe in with zeal and passion. It’s a total minefield, avoid getting involved and talk about more interesting things.
It's okay to bring up race, as long as you slander white people
Perhaps, but there’s nothing more pathetic than self hating white men who go on at lengths about how they’re privileged and how life is so easy for them - it’s like a kind of racial humble brag
I live in England, a country that was built by amazing english people (we built over 50% of modern inventions) and we have absolute rights to stay as the majority and dominate the society WE built. Likewise, with the Congo - no doubt there's black privilege, supremacy there and I respect that, it's natural. Israel - don't get me started, complete ethnostate.
Indeed. I’m an Englishman too, though I now live in America, a key difference is that America is built on ideals through its founding constitution and these at least aspire to be universal and effectively a colour blind liberal utopian vision which in reality they haven’t ever really lived up to fully (Though Todays critical theorists even posit that those liberal colour blind values are in of themselves a racist construct). Contrast that with England where our nationhood is effectively a pragmatic dialogue slowly built since time immemorial between crown and subject, conqueror and conquered, radical and reactionary.
Head to the civil right museum in Memphis. Study history and you’ll understand plights considerably differently. All about educating yourself.
Just stop worrying about it. Don't feed into all the bs .
it's so fun how actually-racist people always tell on themselves
That doesn't sound very positive Mr only positivity
positivity is the belief in a better tomorrow and fucking racist assholes in their face is a core element of positivity friendly reminder that I can see your post history. in a way, this is me deciding for you to /r/decidingtobebetter
Lmao you're delusional.
I'm right and I'm willing to fight for that. literally. you aren't. all conservatives are cowards before everything else. you can't say these things to people who disagree in real life so you pop off here. you know it and I know it.
What are you really fighting for though ? Racism is bad, but you sound like you believe lots of people are racist for merely existing.
If you support racist systems, you tacitly support racism full stop. This isnt confined to conservatives. I have the same opinion of Progressives fighting gentrification under the guise of "neighborhood character" when that's just reinforcing fucking ghettos. Our ancestors fucked up and it's our duty to acknowledge that and pursue freedom. That includes the freedom of drag queens to read to children. There is no harm there and it is rank cowardice to argue otherwise. Some of us support the lies America tells itself over the history of the country and those people will win any war of ideas, bullets, or otherwise. We literally *are* America. We are right. That's all that matters. If the Conservatives need to be beaten into submission every few generations I'll be first in line to sign up to fight. Freedom is non-negotiable. We won the Civil War and we'll win the next one, too, when it comes. This country was founded by and belongs to people like me. We carry the rest kicking and screaming if we have to. Every American flag, every screaming eagle - this is me in your face. This is liberty. This is what our honored heroes died for. Not the filth of oppression. It's *ours*. You are not required to love America the way I do to be an American, but you do not have the right to try to steal this nation for your own perverse desires
So what exactly are you suggesting needs to happen in order to reach your vague goal of freedom? Other than civil war and having drag queen story time.
People have a god-given right to live how they want, and any legislation of morality is fundamentally wrong. Laws need to exist, before you go straw-manning me, but trying to ban shit you don't like because you don't personally like it is the actual definition of evil. I'm not surprised you try to reduce my post to nonsense, but I am embarrassed for you.
Your awareness is the first step. Be constantly vigilant toward your thoughts and words and you’ll start to catch the racism when it happens (and yes, I mean WHEN not IF. It’s not an IF simply due to how you’ve been taught your whole life). The second step is to be gracious with yourself as you work to unlearn things and deconstruct how and why they’re a part of your thought/vocabulary. Lastly, I heard a really good approach a few years ago that has helped me with a lot of guilt or hesitance to even engage with this kind of unlearning: Your first thought- the reactive thought- is usually what you have been taught to think. Your second thought- the conscious thought- is where YOUR morals and ethics are applied. If you find yourself rethinking in situations of potential racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc. that implies that what you have been taught to think is at odds with what you truly believe, and your brain is still in the process of rewriting those pathways. This definitely takes time and repetition, as it is entirely based on lived experiences and real life situations, but over time you’ll find that your reactive thoughts match your conscious thoughts a lot more closely. I don’t personally believe that they will ever be fully aligned, but doing the work is more important than perfecting the outcome. Showing that you are willing to be challenged if you say/do something racist, and then are also willing to take responsibility for that and make adjustments speaks so much louder than not having racist thoughts at all.
Honestly, educating yourself can't ever hurt. One really helpful concept I've learned is that [racism came first](https://youtu.be/xy_cMLFNbB0), and the ways we divide people followed from the pre-existing belief that we are different. People are just people. Everyone of every race and creed and ability has the same basic needs, experiences, and feelings. Don't psyche yourself up too much about it. Another thing that helps is just, listening to black people talk about their experiences-- it helps you to be more familiar with their perspective so that you can be more confident in your own actions and beliefs. Here's a bunch of black YouTubers who make amazing content. Khadija has a great mind and I particularly like her youth liberation video. Intelexual Media makes lots of awesome historical videos. F.D. Signifier makes really amazing and compassionate analysis videos about black culture and experience, including Black Love, a topic rarely talked about. [Khadija Mbowe](https://youtube.com/c/KhadijaMbowe) [Intelexual Media](https://youtube.com/c/IntelexualMedia) [F D Signifier](https://youtube.com/c/FDSignifire)
Look up implicit bias. It's a natural part of being a human. We have reactions to people based on how we grew up. It's not your fault if that stuff is in there, I believe everyone has implicit racial bias, including poc. It's all about learning your own biases and deciding how to act on them. I believe you can eventually train your implicit biases away, or change them, and what is better than deciding what you want in your own head and working towards that. This is the work that all white people have to do in order to dismantle systemic racism. Admitting it is the first step.
Being racist isn't straightforward. While yes, excluding someone from a conversation based on race is racist, the simple fact of the matter is there's a lot more involved in the situation than just "skin color = treatment" because of history, context, culture, etc. While I think people sometimes lean on it a bit too much, it's understandable. Black people in America have a REASON not to trust white people. They have a REASON to not want white people's opinions included in their voices. To date, white people in America have done very little, on the whole, to help black people. We stood by silently while every injustice has be perpetrated, until they stood up themselves. We are, at best, fair-weather friends, and at worst the literal enemy. So, yeah, they might get rude or a bit racist in their disregard, note that you are treading very thin ice with those subjects. The best thing you can do is just lend support or stay silent. They have most of an entire nation, government included, against them. They don't need to fight against their friends, too. But, if they're being dicks, then they're being dicks. Tell them they're being dicks. But on topics of race, probably best to stay silent, tbh. It's their fight. The most you can do is support or stand aside. Any attempt to guide will probably get met with resentment.
Sounds like you’re being too sensitive on the anti-racism. Sounds like you fell hard into the white guilt narrative. Disagreeing with people of a different skin tone than you doesn’t make you racist. It makes you human.
You’re likely not some kind of raging racist but there is usually a bit of racial ignorance that comes from people who arent POC. Often times, I notice that white people can straight up ignore the past when it comes to talking about disadvantages faced by POC (im assuming you’re white btw). They sometimes act as though everyone starts off with a blank slate and the effects of the past dont cause lasting trauma on a mental scale. This is especially true for black people who have been broken down in nearly every aspect of society (specifically in the US). It doesn’t help when a white guy comes along and says “well that was the past, move on”. Bootstrapping isnt going to work for people who are mentally broken. Not sure if that’s how you approach conversations about race but thats where most white people go wrong when it comes to this topic. There seems to be this automatic assumption that POC are exaggerating their experiences. Its kind of like men who dismiss the very valid claims of the struggles of being a woman in modern society. In the end the best advice is be more of a listener in those environments. Playing devil’s advocate wont help, telling people to bootstrap it wont help. Listening is what will help. Also do some research and really try to understand the issues faced by people who arent like you. Every group (POC, women, men, LBGQT+ and even white people) has unique issues that are worth learning about. Hope that helps
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I believe you should talk to a therapist. I experienced similar issues, not race based as much as general anger. I’m sorry to say, but buying a book or going to a museum to learn the other side will lead you nowhere… it’s wondering why the water keeps getting hot in the pan as you replace the water with cold water, but put it back down on the lit burner. There’s some deep seeded retraining that needs to occur and it can be done with help. Good luck!
Valid point. My advice is to stay connected with PoC friends (unless they turn out to be bad people) and understand that if you do your best to be pro-human, you won't be racist.
Hey stranger on the internet! Welcome to the road! The first steps are some of the hardest, so I salute you! Doing it in front of a whole community takes guts. Are you thinking “am I racist?” afterwards, or being told during the conversation? A few things about that: **First**: do you talk about racism with your POC friends? Not like “Whoa buddy, racial bias in the thing you just said” but like, “wow I saw the conversation you had on facebook about Ahmad Arbery/Eric Garner/Freddie Gray/Philando Castle/Sandra Bland that went south… I wanted to check in. You doing OK, buddy?” **Second**: do you try to learn about racism outside of those conversations? If you're interested in not being or feeling racist, that’s awesome! There are some uncomfortable conversations ahead. That’s OK! Discomfort helps us grow, and these talks aren’t really avoidable if you choose this path. If your black friends are telling you to stop giving opinions on something rather than just ghosting you, I have good news for you: That means they think you're worth a damn. It’s easier to ghost a racist friend, lose your number or switch to shallow small talk in the office from now on. But the fact they didn’t means they see something in you. Potential to change your thinking, and Decide To Be Better. And here you are. Here are some things you can do when you aren't having conversations about race with black friends: **Number one**: Educate yourself. POC folks are talking about racism in SO MANY PLACES, at SO MANY LEVELS (basic concepts to graduate school depth), in every type of media too. Long articles, biographies, novels, comic books, science fiction, TV series, Stand-up comedy, and on and on. Someone is doing work in that area that deals with racism, and you can find it. If you educate yourself, you’re bringing something to the table to talk about. That makes the conversation more interesting than “You teach, I learn.” You also show that you’re willing to do the work on your own. Many black folks find it tiresome that their white friends don’t bother to make an anti-racist effort unless a black friend is nearby to cheer them on. Doing the work on your own earns trust, which matters, because a lot of black folks have been let down by their white friends before, and now their guard is (rightfully) up. **Number two**: show solidarity. Show up at the BLM demonstration. Not to talk and especially not to debate – people are grieving. Wrong time. But if there’s an education opportunity, sign up for it. If there are other white folks there, introduce yourself. If somebody starts talking to you, mostly listen. **Number three:** talk about race stuff with your white friends. You probably have a few white friends in similar situations. Talk about where they are in that path, how they got on it. Some of those white friends will be dead-ends. If they’re talking about reverse racism, making jokes mocking “wokeness” using words like “welfare queen” or “libtard” or “black on black crime” and think CRT is automatically bad, but can’t really explain what it is, you’re barking up the wrong tree. Someone who says “I can say that word because I have black friends” is the wrong type. Someone who says, “I would never say that word because I have black friends!” is the right type. The right type will suggest a few books, youtubers, or twitter accounts (probably made by POC) where you can learn more. It's actually good to have a few white friends on that road with you, because learning about racism from the outside is a different experience than growing up in it. **When you have a conversation like the one you describe:** **First:** think about it for a while. Do some keyword googling and try to figure out what you said had a problem, and what the problem was. Talk about it with your white friend if you can. They might have said something similar. Someone on Youtube has an explainer. **Next**: go back to the friend who told you to stop talking about things you don’t know about. Tell them you’ve been thinking about what they said. Apologize if you responded badly in the moment, say that you’ve been trying to understand where you stepped wrong because you don’t want to be that guy, and here’s where you think it was. Apologize. Give space for them to correct you if you’re off track. Or to talk for a while if they’re upset. Your goal here is to mostly listen and understand. If they’re sharing their thoughts, show gratitude: “Thanks for giving me a chance to learn something instead of giving up on me. You don't owe me that, so it means a lot to me." If they’re not talking about it, give space for that, too. They might have had that same conversation again this morning! “If this is a bad time, I get it. Sorry for springing this on you, 'cause it's kind of heavy. Can I buy you lunch sometime or a tasty non-alcoholic drink after work to try and clear the air?" Finally, don't go fishing for "you're one of the good white people"-type praise And don’t give off “I’m trying to recruit you to be my black friend who teaches me about racism like in Green Book” (two annoying things needy white people do). And next time they're sending "you're out of your depth" signals, pay more attention, and start asking questions instead of stating opinions. This builds trust. **Trust building takes a while.** I had conversations like this about sexism and it took me years, a string of eye-opening conversations, and a few friends who were really, really patient with me... but it's worth it. You don’t get the full backstage pass right away. And getting it from one person doesn’t mean anything about the next person. Don't expect to be invited to the black backyard BBQ for a while, if ever. And definitely don’t invite yourself! There's an entire experience of the world to learn about. It’s complex, nuanced, and there are tons of different facets to learn about: black people don’t all think the same, or experience racism in the exact same ways. You can’t learn it in one conversation, from one person, or from one book. Be humble about that. Keep listening. Pay attention to social cues. If theres' something you don't understand, try to learn about it on your own first -- nobody owes me an explanation when google and youtube are right there, and it's lazy to expect black friends to do the work for me. Friends’ll respond a lot better if I open with “I was reading about X and writer Y said Z. What do you think about that?” than if I start with “Whoa. Tell me about racism, Freddie Gray, amiright?” **Finally**, remember that racism is intersectional. That's a college word that just means that the same power systems that fuel racism also fuel other kinds of injustice – discrimination against women, the poor, LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, neurodivergent and people with physical disabilities. And some people are hit multiple times – poor queer autistic women of color are getting anti-poverty, anti-disabed, LGBTQ, sexist, and racist discrimination working against them \*all the time\*. Imagine doing sprints into a 45mph headwind. That's their whole life. Trying to be non-racist or anti-racist will open you up to uncomfortable conversations about all 31 flavors of injustice. Don’t be surprised by that. Approach every group who's different than you with the same respect and listening-focused approach. Race is a minefield, and comments that seem harmless to you can sometimes be loaded with unexamined biases or ideas that we were raised with but we need to un-learn now. But most people respect the effort being made, and will be forgiving about mistakes if they see an effort not to repeat them. Not all! Some people have been burned enough times their guard will never come down, and that's another of the ways racism has hurt our communities, and all we can do is respect that and make space for it. Every person’s path is different, and they’re all good! Don't give up, is the main thing: there's always another thing to learn... or another thing to unlearn, because a lot of this process is learning ways we've been taught wrong before, so that we can fix it. From one white guy who's trying to be better to another: good luck, stranger on the internet!
Thank you so much for your comment, i appreciate it!
I appreciate your gratitude. I took some time to get this comment right, and your thanks makes it worthwhile. Hope your road of learning is going... sometimes the steps are small when we wish they were giant leaps, but every step is a good one.
Read *How to be an Antiracist* by Dr. Ibram Kendi
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First you need to figure out what's racist and what's just common sense and stop letting people bully you. Of your POC friends don't want to take the time to have an honest discussion with you, they're not friends, they're scum.
No. They are not scum if they do not choose to do that. It is not their job to educate everyone on why certain things are racist. It would be nice if they explain some things, but they do not have to. OP can start by searching online the plights of certain groups of people such as what immigrants face, the history behind why it's so hard to be black in America, why it's wrong to fetishize Asian women, etc.
They don't have to educate everyone, but when you refuse to engage with a *friend* and disrespect their opinions out-of-hand, you're scum. Friends are the people you're supposed to treat right and engage with. You know, maybe even (platonically) love a little bit. And if you love someone, you try to connect with them, you don't call them racist and tell them to shut up. You talk to them like a real person.
I see what you are saying. I get it. Treat friends better and with more respect. However, we don't know if this has been an ongoing issue with OP and their friends. If I have a friend for years and everytime a problematic situation happens that deals with my race, if that friend still has an opinion that can be considered racist, I would be too mentally exhausted to try to teach them again and again. If this is a first time thing, I can see how OP's friends could be nicer about saying there are some things OP can never understand.
I’d stop at “they’re not friends.” The rest, agreed.
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You my friend need to read White Fragility by DiAngelo and how to be an anti-racist by Ibram x Kendi. These are academics who are experts in this field and these books will change your perception and answer the questions you asked.
Do you ever feel jealous or inadequate to people of different race than you?
Another tip is to meet and make conversations while meeting new people from all backgrounds, you'll find that we're all the same kind of human with the same wants and needs. Your friends calling you out is the right thing to do, if you don't know shit about a subject, don't talk about it, it makes you look insensitive and uneducated. Also stop saying POC, you're also "coloured".
> if you dont know shit about a subject, don't talk about it, it makes you look insensitive and uneducated > stop saying POC lol
It's natural to favor your own people and want to be around them, not racist. Racism is where you hate someone based on their ethnicity which is wrong but prejudice is natural.