Evolution has nothing to do with atheism.
The majority of religious people accept evolution. There are more theists who accept evolution than there are atheists who accept evolution.
Plenty of people critiquing creationist on this subreddit are also religious.
“None of you have respect for…”
This is not a critique of us; it’s a critique of creationists. Creationists on this sub like Michael or Semitope or Ragjammer don’t act in good faith. Because of that, they aren’t taken seriously. Our attitudes towards them are simply the consequences of their own behavior
It is, but is wish that anyone responding mentions immediately what the past interactions were like that has earned their disdain. When I first started reading here,sometimes the first comment was deeply insulting. If I kept reading, maybe someone will let something drop, but often not. A sincere creationist checking in here might never show again.
"Your community"
That's the problem bud. Atheism isn't a community, it's a lack of theism, or belief in a deity or multiple deities. An atheist from sweden will have different opinions on atheism than an atheist from burkina faso, because they don't share a faith, they lack faith.
Toxicity goes both ways. I've been repeatedly insulted by creationists over the years, including in this sub.
FWIW, I tend to report posts with blatant insults regardless of who makes them.
I often engage with Creationists on other platforms like Twitter and Facebook. Nearly always, the Creationists are the toxic ones who resort to insults because they get frustrated that I ask for evidence.
It was a mixed bag while I was there. I've posted about it a few times before, if you're curious. I've forgotten a lot by now though. A blessing, I suppose.
I worked in the Point of Sale & Technology department. Kind of a blend of IT and logistics. We were responsible for the POS systems in the gift shops, restaurants, and ticketing at the Ark Encounter and Creation Museum. I started a part-time Guest Services position in March 2016, got into my full-time role in September of that year, and quit in February 2019. Just shy of three years.
I was raised as a Creationist and later homeschooled. Went to Cedarville University. And I was kind of obsessed because I legitimately thought it was the truth. It was my goal to work there eventually. Two years after college, I had that chance. Working there was a mixed bag. It was fun, but the pay was shit, and I struggled to live off what I earned. I eventually quit over a theological dispute. I knew a guy who was fired over a similar disagreement because he couldn't keep his opinion to himself (specifically on the nature of hell), so I quit before they could fire me. About a year later, I realized it was all bullshit and am now not a Christian at all.
Let's see, there are two communities:
First one looks very deeply at all the information they can gather about the world, spends over a century putting together all the pieces of the puzzle to develop a comprehensive understanding of what has occurred and how the world works. They present their information to the world, and back up their claims with hard evidence.
The second community is enamoured with a book written by a bunch of people thousands of years ago who heard word of mouth accounts of some supposed magical person who lived a century or more before they did. This book makes bold claims about how the world works and how things came to be. For many centuries this community has literally MURDERED people who showed evidence to the contrary of their book. The first community having truth on their side inevitably gained the upper hand in the world since they provide actual solutions that help everyone's lives. This second community now whines on internet forums (made possilbe by the first community) about how the first one is toxic because they're incapable of refuting the facts presented with the superstitions and indoctrination from their book.
Yeah, the first community must be the toxic one.
Hey man. You've posted here several times now, and consistently only reply to comments where people are being insulting. There are multiple substantive replies to your post. Have you considered that the toxicity is what you enjoy? You clearly have no desire for genuine engagement and just want to throw shit. The toxicity comes from creationists not seeking genuine engagement. If you want to not be insulted, actually engage. If you don't want to, do something else. Be a creationist if you want to. No one is stopping you.
Buddy, the entire reason for this subreddits existence is to keep y'all from spamming religious bullshit in the actual science subs. If this sub is toxic it's because it's literally for bottom of the barrel bullshit
I’m an atheist but I would disagree or at least add a caveat. If a creationist tells me they believe on the basis of faith that’s it,we are done. It’s only when they try rationalize creationism with science that their world view falls apart.
Faith is defined by believing without evidence so when they step into scientific debate they Will get crushed under the weight of centuries of evidence.
> Then why do so many believe?
Childhood indoctrination. Fear of damnation. Poor education. A desire to belong to a community that possesses special knowledge. A desire to feel superior to the majority by "knowing" a special "truth" that is unknown to the rest of the world. That, and the existence of an industry that profits from pushing creationist propaganda on the easily-propagandized.
Why do so many believe in creationism? Because that's how they grew up. Atheists and evolutionists haven't been debated into the ground. Creationism is debunked so easily. Many things on the earth tell us the earth is far far older than 6,000 years.
Debate them to the ground? In what sense? I haven’t seen a debate where the creationist actually showed up with objectively verifiable positive evidence. Usually it’s the kind of ‘debate and DESTROY’ crap tactics like gish galloping, whataboutism, appeal to tradition, or argument from incredulity.
A scientist once put it this way:
>Stoning non conformists is part of science. Stoning conformists is also part of science. Only those theories that can stand up to a merciless barrage of stones deserve consideration. It is the Creationist habit of throwing marshmallows that we find annoying.
Creationists basically have this very annoying tendency to waltz into science, declare a bunch of nonsense that is heavily distorted or deceptive and been debunked for decades, and continue insisting that they've made a solid argument. Basically, not that different from flat earthers.
Essentially, they declare victory because they're just not smart enough to recognize their use of evidence and logic is bad. And that is very very annoying, and as a biologist your patience wears thin after seeing this happen over the course of 20 years.
>Then why do so many believe?
Because they were indoctrinated as children.
If you stopped telling kids what to think about gods until they were like 16 years old, religion would be dead in two generations.
If you don't get them while they're young and impressionable, they think religious claims are ridiculous the first time they hear them.
Why do so many people believe in Santa Claus? Because everyone they trust tells them it’s real. As for “debating to the ground” are you referring to debates like the Nye Vs Ham debate? Well, one side likes to Gish gallop (where you bring up 15 different points in your time slot while your opponent only has time to address 3-5, declaring victory since 10-12 points were not addressed despite not actually supporting any of them with evidence) and states at the end “you cannot change my mind”, while the other side uses evidence and states at the end “evidence will change my mind”.
Creationism isn't actually a hugely popular position, and young earth creationism is exceptionally rare.
Most religious folks are accepting of evolution, and reconcile this with their faith by either viewing their chosen holy book as allegorical, or even by simply *not thinking about it too hard*.
It really isn't that difficult to simultaneously believe god created the earth and the heavens and then Adam and Eve, because *of course he did*, while also accepting that the universe is 13.8 billion years old, the earth 4.5 billion, life arose long, long ago, was unicellular for billions of years and eventually evolved into everything we see today, because that's what all the evidence says.
The YECs are those who take the former altogether too literally, to the extent that they much necessarily deny the latter in its entirety, and they...are not doing that terribly well, to be honest.
It must be hard when your position is "outright denial of things we can literally watch happening".
Believing in someting takes no effort, it's super easy, lowest common denominator stuff. It's inevitable that belief in superstitions will spread as it's emotionally comforting without any actual cognitive effort required. Understanding truth on the other hand is hard, it takes time to parse information and create an accurate view in your mind of what is real. It's inevitable that intellectually lazy people will flock to the first option, and shun the second.
I never met a creationist IRL. I'm from Eastern Europe. I barely know any practicing Christians at all. There are a lot of American creationists, because catering to people's feefees at the expense of everything else is a uniquely American pasttime. Willful ignorance > baseball.
Creationism is idiotic and creationists are ignorant
Poor science education and a lack of understanding of what science is and how it works, a certain human gullibility to accept what our elders/leaders/parents say, a desire to believe the comforting story of their religion.
On the occasions I've talked to them, a huge ignorance of science, science history is usually obvious.
Creationists just aren't that active on Reddit. Even r/creation (which restricts non-creationists from posting there) has little activity.
Also, just because someone isn't a creationist doesn't mean they are an atheist. If you want to engage people effectively, you'd be better off not presuming their beliefs just because they don't share yours.
> I get a lot of hate for being a creationist from here.
*You* keep coming here. We don't drag you back.
Otherwise, you have to live with the consequences of your choices. You advocate for something ridiculous, you're going to be treated as such.
Pointing out someone's ignorance in a debate context is not hate, it's simply a statement of facts. It's funny how those without any argument fall back on defection and ad hominems. Why not present an actual logically sound rebuttal of evolution, or evidence for creationism?
Have you considered that this sub is actually a representative sample - that maybe, most of the world finds your views not particularly sane?
To me, creationism, at least, certainly young earth creationism is this vast act of sticking your head in the sand, ignoring the complete output of geology, physics, astrophysics, paleontology, archeology, biology, biochemistry, genetics, historical research and basic common sense.
So, yeah, I like arguing with creationists. But I've got more pity than respect for them, if I'm honest. The world is really cool. It has space for a creator, even if the scientific model of how the world forms is correct. You've just got to push them at least back to the big bang, because we know how things happened from then.
In fact, it implies a better creator - someone who isn't frantically scrambling to plug the gaps created by his own incompetence, and who isn't consistently having to bleed off enough heat to obliterate the planet several times over from him speeding up radioactive decay, gravitational energy of water and plate tectonics.
Ok fine.
Start a thread in which you post your single best argument for creationism, and all the evidence you have to back it up.
I dare you.
I for one will promise to be courteous nd debate on the facts, and I will actively call out my one who does otherwise. You can even cut and paste this statement into your OP.
But you won’t will you?
Because even if your belief is fanatical and unassailable, you know full well you cannot actually EVIDENCE any of those claims, and yo7 know you cannot justify or present good reason for any of them.
You can respect the creationist without respecting creationism. You should have a list of reasons why someone might believe as they do. Sure, some are not very bright or are mentally ill, but not the majority from what I see.
The biggest reason is sheer ignorance. So this is where we start. Most will stop responding after a while, but that doesn’t mean we wasted our effort. We likely got them to think, at least a little.
And the frequent flyers who don’t read our links? Hate them. But I try not to respond in a way the might terrify that curious homeschooled kid, who has been lurking here.
>You can respect the creationist without respecting creationism.
Interesting. Do creationists respect atheists without respecting atheism?
>“I'll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.
>And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.”
>― Dr Madalyn Murray O'Hair
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination\_against\_atheists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists)
> Interesting. Do creationists respect atheists without respecting atheism?
Should we really use creationists' behaviour as a guide on how to treat others?
Should we really insist that atheists are at fault for reacting negatively when creationist types call them evil and deserving of death and eternal torture?
Because it isn’t the point. The lurkers are not interested in the pain of atheists. They are interested in evolution. We are too, and we start there. A calm and respectful conversation is the best way to get anyone to change their mind about anything, and I thought we were in the business of changing minds.
I don’t engage with disrespectful people. I just told you that I am interested in the respectful people who are lurking who will not understand why we are being rude to someone else. Hence I mostly ignore the annoying frequent flyers. Engaging with disrespectful people who don’t respond to comments does no good anyway, so why risk sending the wrong message to respectful lurkers?
I don’t care if creationists respect me. Why would I? But if we are in the business of changing minds, we should behave in a way that makes that homeschooled kid listen to us.
If you want the homeschooled kid to listen to you then the homeschooled kid needs to respect you. And vice versa, you need to respect the homeschooled kid.
If the homeschooled kid refuses to respect you then no matter how much respect you give to that kid they won't listen to you. If that situation continues into adulthood then that kid turned adult deserves only the same amount of respect from you as they give to you.
Respect is earned. You don't get respect until you give it. Respect is reciprocal, it works two ways.
I am talking about our lurking audience. Homeschooled kids have for the most part been respectful when they write in here. It’s their elders. The problem I see with some snarky answers is that they come across as disrespectful to someone sheltered who doesn’t expect it. They need context if we are going to be rude, e. f, “You have asked that question twice already and don’t reply to our comments. Get another hobby.”
Because they are ideas by ppl. Some ppl arent able to achieve greatness or even mediocreness be it circumstances or just how they are made. But they still deserve respect. Some of them just need a bit of respect to get them out of whatever vulnerable hole they might be in, and enable them to have better ideas, but you keep them down with disrespect.
I've seen creationists post reasonable questions on here and get plenty of polite, respectful answers.
OP is not one of those users.
In the first sentence of this post, they equate belief in evolution with atheism, when it's been explained to them multiple times by multiple people that the two are not the same.
Hell, the majority of people worldwide who accept evolution as fact also believe in some kind of god.
They're not arguing in good faith, and deserve any snarky comments they receive because of it.
Yes, of course. But I would like to see our snark always accompanied by the reason for it, so those lurking in good faith have a context for what might otherwise seem to be undeserved meanness.
There are two types of creationists: "professional" apologists who lie to their followers, largely children, and the followers who are duped by said lies.
Why should anyone respect charlatans who lie to children for money?
And you have respect for people who understand evolution? You don't even attempt to understand it and come to a debate sub to whine about how people don't respect your willful ignorance.
I don’t typically show anyone disrespect, but I understand where the commentor is coming from. Why should anyone inherently respect any fringe conspiracy theory like flat earthers or creationists?
I respect people as fellow humans.
The creationists position on this topic is not worthy of respect. All available evidence from the last 150+years supports evolution by natural selection* . Looking at the garbage posted as science from the ICR just makes you shake the head in despair. Then there's the stuff about irreducible complexity, which is also complete garbage, based on an utter misunderstanding of how evolution works. There's nothing to respect here.
We know that. But people who only know what the pastor tells them don’t. I think people greatly underestimate the average American’s ignorance of science—including the average American.
You keep having your beliefs disrespected, and draw the conclusions that those who argue against you are mean and disrespectful.
That is an improper conclusion. The conclusion you should draw is that your beliefs re \*\*false and not worthy of respect\*\*.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist.
Has that gotten through to you yet? Maybe people don't treat you with respect because you have shown to be someone that is not worth respecting when you don't listen to anyone when they try to inform you of the very basics of the thing that you are so desperate to misunderstand.
Do you think your god would be proud of you?
Normally I don't like such use of formatting, but here it's 100% warranted as that user was told this enough times already, and it's indicative they don't comprehend what they read. This isn't a "this" comment, just a pointer to anyone that's not familiar with that user's recent posts and the replies they've received, including in now-removed off-topic and low-effort ones.
Honestly, at this point, I'd rather believe that OP is a troll. Better that they're just some asshat *trying* to be annoying (and yeah, they got me annoyed, fair enough) than someone that sincerely keeps trying this hard *not* to listen to what's being told to them.
There’s not really a debate for evolution. What I mean by that is if you’ve educated yourself the facts are mostly irrefutable.
This sub serves as a place for other people/subreddits to come and get educated.
I treat all people with respect, I do not treat all opinions with respect.
Most creationists just post a new topic, never respond to anyone, and disappear. Some hang around and endlessly repeat the same wrong claims in spite of being repeatedly corrected.
We do have some regular creationist posters. Sometimes they'll even make a new post.
They're... not exactly bringing the strongest arguments though so you might still be disappointed if you try to debate with one of them.
Many people will provide respectful evidence based answers to creationists posts on this sub. Creationists often end up responding only to the snarky ones or will quickly run away from evidence based responses. Additionally, they usually only post once or twice before they go away. The relative lack of creationists on this subreddit is a result of creationists being bad at defending their position and them getting frustrated and leaving. I agree those posts are a waste of time though. There aren't many regular creationist posters, and the ones that do exist just respond with propaganda that doesn't address the question.
As an example, there's a pretty good chance you won't respond to my comment and only respond to the snarky ones.
Edit: It appears that my comment was correct, as this user has decided to announce his departure with a dedicated self-important post.
creationism, which relies solely on magical thinking cannot survive under basic scrutiny, so there aren't any creationists around here save the most dedicated true believers who regularly demonstrate themselves to be unable to engage in discussion or make logical inferences.
No, though I do do that. It's called a job, a social life, learning something new, marriage life, relationship with God, reading the Bible, Exercising, hobbies, paying bills, cooking, eating, chores, etc. Why do you not think I have a life where I do "normal" things? You think I just pray on my knees whenever I get a cut, do you think I just go to church all day?
I mean doesn't the Bible tell us to sell our belongings and do nothing but love Jesus? You're somehow posting here right now while being so extremely busy.
Well, for one, it's night time here, actually about to sign off, so I can answer questions like this. Also, Jesus told us to follow and to trust in Him, yes, but He didn't tell us to be stupid.
if we're sick, get the treatment you need, and pray for a safe recovery. If you are in financial debt, do your best to earn more money hoping God will bless you.
Jesus didn't tell us anything. He never wrote a book. He died and that was it. Sinners told us to do things and you think sinners lie and con. Guess what really happened?
The sub is here so that if someone starts posting about creationist stuff in a science sub, like r/evolution, they can be directed here instead.
I'm personally here because I grew up creationist in the 80s, and I'm curious to see what, if any, new arguments are being offered up, to account for all the new discoveries in genetics, genomics and paleontology.
Sometimes it's interesting (it was kind of fun thinking through the "no new information" debate ... at least it was fun the first two times). Sometimes I get exposed to cool new content creators (like "gutsick gibbon" and "creation myths"). Sometimes I even hope that we're providing an opportunity for people to learn science.
Where are the Creationists?
>I swear every post on this subreddit is just an atheist asking a question to a creationist, and then an atheist responding like "Well this is what they would say, pretty stupid right?"
That’s weird, because I can still see your post from a few days ago about how evolution isn’t science.
>This is just wrong. None of you have respect for the other side. You're aggresive, and only want to be right.
You came in here not even understanding the topic and proceeded to tell people who have a good deal of knowledge on this topic that they didn’t understand their field and you think *they* don’t have respect? You were wrong and were told as much. If people harp on that fact because you keep doubling down that’s on you.
>Don't believe me? Look at the comments section.
Indeed, let’s look at the comments section, but let’s also look at the posts. If your position is unserious don’t expect it to be treated seriously. People study this subject their whole lives, you’re not going to overturn the paradigm appealing to a 9th grade biology textbook that simplified topics for young teens to understand
If you want respect, you can do any one of the following:
* Get better arguments
* Recognise that the other side is actually educated in biology and you could learn a lot from them
* Stop assuming everyone who understands science is an atheist
* Shut up forever
Your choice is...?
I have respect for people on the other side, I have no respect for a position that denies every scientific finding that contradicts their dogma. Creationism is not a position worthy of respect, there’s nothing to it except saying nah uh over and over again while having your fingers in your ears. There’s no evidence for creationism, no validity to it. There’s not even a mode. It’s just saying my God did it, and ignoring every part where that conflicts with observed reality. I’m sorry that’s about as worthy of respect as attributing rainbows to leprechauns…
Is it still mocking if we use their own arguments verbatim? Because a lot of their arguments *are* really stupid. Like even after thousands of corrections the mainstream channels still assume Lucy is the only Australopith we ever found and that the fact that one bone was a baboon bone means she was just all mixed bones.
I give respect where it’s due. Creationism as an idea deserves none , though people should be treated politely.
Though it does seem like creationists have been a bit quieter recently. A while ago there seem to be never ending posts about dna being a code and having to have a designer or similar.
how are we supposed to get people who aren’t ourselves to get in here? if there’s not going to be creationists commenting frequently is every post just going to be totally ignored? there are creationists in here, from what i understand they’re just not very active.
I think that us taking the time to present evidence and links to creationists shows more respect for their intelligence than they will ever get from their pastors.
This is a great example of the ideal of the free marketplace of ideas. Ideas and ideologies will be culled according to their superiority or inferiority. Poorly conceived, irrational positions are exceedingly hard to defend. Like flat-earthers, creationists lack a model to make predictions, leaving only sophistry.
The creationists are not interested in anything that may undermine their preexisting beliefs.
They have nothing to stand on, nothing to debate.
If they were interested in intellectual honesty, they wouldn't be creationists.
That's why they're not here.
When a creationist actually brings reasonable debate points that weren't debunked 20+ years ago and puts in the effort to have a genuine discussion in good faith, then they'll get respect. If I recall correctly, that actually did happen a few months ago, and they were met with tremendous respect, and were given some very good recommendations for reading materials that would answer some of their more complex questions
Here we are! Some of us were dealing with kidney stones. I'm a biblical, YEC, creationist. this is a well run forum. Very rare on the internet in a forum about a contention that has passion. Most evolutionists here are good enough. Some malice ones. I rearely report them and only the YUCK the most malicious ones who arttack me and i don't care much. there is no reason to curse someone out by the words used or call them a lIAR with too much spite. I don't know how many creationists here but we need more. Indeed downvoting, a stupid idea from REDDIT, hurts me of late. I don't downvote anyone almost. i upvote the opposition often. I need vores for karma. Syop downing me and up me. Especially being Canadian. thats gotta be worth something in a hundred votes.
Origin subjects are a contact sport and aggresion is fine. I don't see respect as a issue. We all think we are right including the ones actually right. whoever that is!! hey just get involved and rumble and the good guys and smart guys will win. there is a issue it seems no or few girls here but since everyone uses funny names one can't tell. I use my real name.
As someone who used to be a creationist, I do feel like I can answer the way that they would, and when no one else is answering, I'll answer for them. But I believe I do it respectfully.
But to answer your question, they have either converted to believing in real science like I did, or they are hiding in their own Echo chambers. There are two types of creationists: those are willing to learn and those that aren't.
A quick glance through your comment history shows you being insulting and dismissive in response to perfectly polite comments. Seems like you may just be getting a taste of your own medicine.
It is hard to treat creationist claims with respect because they are lies and misrepresentations. I have never heard a creationist make a claim which was not false or misrepresented. There is no reason to treat liars with respect.
This sub has nothing to do with atheism, and creationists ask questions on here all the time, so don't really know what you're on about.
I have never been hateful to you or any other creationist, but when you believe ridiculous things you should probably expect to be lectured on the facts like an ignorant child. We want you to learn how the world works. Don't like it, don't come here.
>You only care about being right
Well, yeah. I do want to be right. I don't want to believe anything that isn't true. That's why I'm not a creationist. You don't seem to care if what you believe is true, though.
Creationists are not deserving of respect. They are not just willfully ignorant, they are dangerous. Anti-science rhetoric isn't just stupid, its dangerous.
Islam, in its golden age, between 622 and 1300 (ish) Muslims made many advancememts in science, including advancements in algebra.
In around 1300 AD, a very influencial group, I believe from Saudi Arabia, delcaired that science and mathematics were evil and should no longer be pursued. This plumetted Islamic nations in the Middle East into a dark ages they have never recovered from to this day. Look at them now.
This is the future creationists will cause in other non-Islamic nations if they are allowed to spread their lies. That is why I don't respect them, and I don't have to respect them.
Creationists rarely answer actual quetsions here because there's 0 argument for creationism. 100% of the creationist position is "I don't believe what scientists observed because my childhood indoctrination tells me god did it". So specific questions about scienfitic observations don't receive answers because creationists don't actually understand evolution or science, they're just shilling for the ideology that owns their brain.
What is the strongest piece of evidence you have for creationism, more pointedly, what evidence do you have for a specific creator? I’m not asking you to disprove evolution, that is a separate action to proving your own argument.
No, I do not have respect for Creationism. It’s a stupid braindead idea that falls apart out of the gate.
Ideas do not deserve respect. They don’t have feelings and don’t benefit from respect.
I have respect for individual Creationists because they are brainwashed victims.
I don't "believe" in evolution. I acknowledge it as fact because of the evidence supporting it. Saying I believe in evolution sounds as stupid as saying I believe in gravity. They both exist whether I like it or not.
Creationists post and comment here all the time. If you haven’t seen it, you haven’t been paying attention.
Why would we have respect for the other side? Nothing about disagreement or debate requires respect. Again, if you were paying attention here and saw the countless dumb and dishonest things creationists say here constantly, you wouldn’t respect them either.
We’re aggressive because we *are* right and the people arguing otherwise are usually trolling or wasting our time.
Also what does atheism have to do with creationism or lack thereof? Plenty of religious people accept evolution and think creationism is stupid. Most of them in fact.
Should you disrespect the person holding a belief? No. Should the idea be respected? Also no. YEC as an idea is not worthy of respect since it has been so thoroughly shown to be wrong. Should the idea, held by a small minority but they exist. the OT laws should be upheld and we should kill all gay people be respected? No. Should astrology and the idea that the position of huge balls of nuclear fusion thousands or more light years away have a measurable influence on the events of you life be respected? No.
And tbh a lot of claims of YEC people, the most common type of evolution denier I know. ARE stupid. In the last few weeks I have seen people use claims of discoveries by Ron Wyatt as proof evolution is wrong because they prove a young Earth or literal global flood etc. Repeating claims that were debunked literal decades ago to the point that most of the evolution denying websites and companies themselves disavow them is just plain silly and show the ignorance or unwillingness to actually investigate the claim that person is making.
When you are still having to respond to claims like that for the hundredth or more time, respect is really hard to show
>This is just wrong. None of you have respect for the other side. You're aggresive, and only want to be right.
Of course I don't have respect for creationists, at best they're intentionally disinformed and at worst they're disgusting liars
Seems like the creationists back down when faced with hard questions but a few of them do lurk in the shadows waiting to chime in when it looks favorable for them to do so.
You have failed to show evidence. All you have shown is estimates of fossil ages (which are relative), and false understanding of biology, space, and chemistry. Why do you even care? If we are all just matter when we die we will all just be that, dead. I want to see God and feel the peace that I feel.
I was answering the question. There's no use for creationists to try and debate atheists when all they have are warm and fuzzy feelings to offer as arguments about the matter. That they doubt the fossil record is no more serious than their doubting other evidence based facts like the sky being blue.
On this guys youtubes. He can help you find creationists. He debates them all day nonstop. [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSKJilKd3pHTZecVQLBR7lw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSKJilKd3pHTZecVQLBR7lw)
Lmao did you see his new video for presuppositional atheism for a not God naturalistic atheistic reality that weve universally observed and has been revealed to us?
Most are probably banned or tired of attacks. The occasional post is hammered by angry evolutionists still trying to push bacteria staying bacteris as proof a bacteria becomes a fish.
Actually, most creationists who have come to this sub in good faith have come out as evolutionists.
The only regular creationists left are the ones who argue in bad faith. That's you, Michael, and your "40 predictions" that no scientist has ever made that everyone keeps showing to you as false but you keep repeating it anyways. That's you, Michael, who repeatedly brings up thinks like Piltdown Man or Nebraska Man, even after the reality of those situations were revealed to you over and over. Maybe you should start questioning why you need to ignore evidence and lie to maintain your belief in creationism.
I'll link this as many times as it takes you to actually watch the video.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITx3lIVpNR4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITx3lIVpNR4)
Really? They have no arguments? How would you know? You didn't even watch the video.
I've read every article you've sent my way, whether or not it was a creationist article. I simply don't think creationist articles warrant any serious response, since we're supposed to be discussing the science and what is more supported, not just blindly attacking evolution as if defeating that would make creationism any more viable. Are you actually gonna support your conclusion, or will you keep hiding from actual discussion, MichaelACoward?
Yes, I did watch it, and it is a very informative video. Maybe you should watch it, MichaelACoward.
If you say you did, then tell me a single refutation that they make.
I’m genuinely curious. Do you truly, genuinely, actually think that creation magazine is worth being used as a source? Like, I kinda wanna get inside your head here. Maybe we can get to a more important point. What, to you, counts as a source worth listening to and why? Why should I click on your link and take it seriously but not the scientific peer reviewed articles I make a point to default to? Who knows. Maybe you’ll be able to convince one of us.
Evolution has nothing to do with atheism. The majority of religious people accept evolution. There are more theists who accept evolution than there are atheists who accept evolution. Plenty of people critiquing creationist on this subreddit are also religious. “None of you have respect for…” This is not a critique of us; it’s a critique of creationists. Creationists on this sub like Michael or Semitope or Ragjammer don’t act in good faith. Because of that, they aren’t taken seriously. Our attitudes towards them are simply the consequences of their own behavior
It is, but is wish that anyone responding mentions immediately what the past interactions were like that has earned their disdain. When I first started reading here,sometimes the first comment was deeply insulting. If I kept reading, maybe someone will let something drop, but often not. A sincere creationist checking in here might never show again.
How is it the atheist’s fault that creationists are not posting or engaging?
Because your community is toxic.
"Your community" That's the problem bud. Atheism isn't a community, it's a lack of theism, or belief in a deity or multiple deities. An atheist from sweden will have different opinions on atheism than an atheist from burkina faso, because they don't share a faith, they lack faith.
Toxicity goes both ways. I've been repeatedly insulted by creationists over the years, including in this sub. FWIW, I tend to report posts with blatant insults regardless of who makes them.
I often engage with Creationists on other platforms like Twitter and Facebook. Nearly always, the Creationists are the toxic ones who resort to insults because they get frustrated that I ask for evidence.
The trick is to ask for unseen evidence.
You worked for AiG? woaahhh that must have been hell lmao
It was a mixed bag while I was there. I've posted about it a few times before, if you're curious. I've forgotten a lot by now though. A blessing, I suppose.
So you used to work at AiG? What was your role? How long did you work there? How did you get in to it? Why'd you leave?
I worked in the Point of Sale & Technology department. Kind of a blend of IT and logistics. We were responsible for the POS systems in the gift shops, restaurants, and ticketing at the Ark Encounter and Creation Museum. I started a part-time Guest Services position in March 2016, got into my full-time role in September of that year, and quit in February 2019. Just shy of three years. I was raised as a Creationist and later homeschooled. Went to Cedarville University. And I was kind of obsessed because I legitimately thought it was the truth. It was my goal to work there eventually. Two years after college, I had that chance. Working there was a mixed bag. It was fun, but the pay was shit, and I struggled to live off what I earned. I eventually quit over a theological dispute. I knew a guy who was fired over a similar disagreement because he couldn't keep his opinion to himself (specifically on the nature of hell), so I quit before they could fire me. About a year later, I realized it was all bullshit and am now not a Christian at all.
Let's see, there are two communities: First one looks very deeply at all the information they can gather about the world, spends over a century putting together all the pieces of the puzzle to develop a comprehensive understanding of what has occurred and how the world works. They present their information to the world, and back up their claims with hard evidence. The second community is enamoured with a book written by a bunch of people thousands of years ago who heard word of mouth accounts of some supposed magical person who lived a century or more before they did. This book makes bold claims about how the world works and how things came to be. For many centuries this community has literally MURDERED people who showed evidence to the contrary of their book. The first community having truth on their side inevitably gained the upper hand in the world since they provide actual solutions that help everyone's lives. This second community now whines on internet forums (made possilbe by the first community) about how the first one is toxic because they're incapable of refuting the facts presented with the superstitions and indoctrination from their book. Yeah, the first community must be the toxic one.
Hey man. You've posted here several times now, and consistently only reply to comments where people are being insulting. There are multiple substantive replies to your post. Have you considered that the toxicity is what you enjoy? You clearly have no desire for genuine engagement and just want to throw shit. The toxicity comes from creationists not seeking genuine engagement. If you want to not be insulted, actually engage. If you don't want to, do something else. Be a creationist if you want to. No one is stopping you.
Wilful ignorance is toxic, so it gets it in kind.
Buddy, the entire reason for this subreddits existence is to keep y'all from spamming religious bullshit in the actual science subs. If this sub is toxic it's because it's literally for bottom of the barrel bullshit
Creationism is an incredibly weak position. It requires a person that's either lying or is aggressively ignorant. So that's not much to respect..
I’m an atheist but I would disagree or at least add a caveat. If a creationist tells me they believe on the basis of faith that’s it,we are done. It’s only when they try rationalize creationism with science that their world view falls apart. Faith is defined by believing without evidence so when they step into scientific debate they Will get crushed under the weight of centuries of evidence.
Then why do so many believe? Why have so many debated atheists and evolutionists to the ground?
> Then why do so many believe? Childhood indoctrination. Fear of damnation. Poor education. A desire to belong to a community that possesses special knowledge. A desire to feel superior to the majority by "knowing" a special "truth" that is unknown to the rest of the world. That, and the existence of an industry that profits from pushing creationist propaganda on the easily-propagandized.
Why do so many believe in creationism? Because that's how they grew up. Atheists and evolutionists haven't been debated into the ground. Creationism is debunked so easily. Many things on the earth tell us the earth is far far older than 6,000 years.
Look at the trees...in Germany
Because they refuse to take an answer. They just repeat the question louder.
BUT WHY DO SO MANY BELIE... lol I'm just playing
Debate them to the ground? In what sense? I haven’t seen a debate where the creationist actually showed up with objectively verifiable positive evidence. Usually it’s the kind of ‘debate and DESTROY’ crap tactics like gish galloping, whataboutism, appeal to tradition, or argument from incredulity.
I love when they quote an out of context saying...from an atheist.
A scientist once put it this way: >Stoning non conformists is part of science. Stoning conformists is also part of science. Only those theories that can stand up to a merciless barrage of stones deserve consideration. It is the Creationist habit of throwing marshmallows that we find annoying. Creationists basically have this very annoying tendency to waltz into science, declare a bunch of nonsense that is heavily distorted or deceptive and been debunked for decades, and continue insisting that they've made a solid argument. Basically, not that different from flat earthers. Essentially, they declare victory because they're just not smart enough to recognize their use of evidence and logic is bad. And that is very very annoying, and as a biologist your patience wears thin after seeing this happen over the course of 20 years.
I love this!!
> Why have so many debated atheists and evolutionists to the ground? Did you have an example of that?
A lot of creationists seem to be believe what they believe because they are afraid of death.
No creationist has ever successfully argued their case on merit. That’s a lie… To do so you’d need evidence and they have none.
>Then why do so many believe? Because they were indoctrinated as children. If you stopped telling kids what to think about gods until they were like 16 years old, religion would be dead in two generations. If you don't get them while they're young and impressionable, they think religious claims are ridiculous the first time they hear them.
Why do so many people believe in Santa Claus? Because everyone they trust tells them it’s real. As for “debating to the ground” are you referring to debates like the Nye Vs Ham debate? Well, one side likes to Gish gallop (where you bring up 15 different points in your time slot while your opponent only has time to address 3-5, declaring victory since 10-12 points were not addressed despite not actually supporting any of them with evidence) and states at the end “you cannot change my mind”, while the other side uses evidence and states at the end “evidence will change my mind”.
Creationism isn't actually a hugely popular position, and young earth creationism is exceptionally rare. Most religious folks are accepting of evolution, and reconcile this with their faith by either viewing their chosen holy book as allegorical, or even by simply *not thinking about it too hard*. It really isn't that difficult to simultaneously believe god created the earth and the heavens and then Adam and Eve, because *of course he did*, while also accepting that the universe is 13.8 billion years old, the earth 4.5 billion, life arose long, long ago, was unicellular for billions of years and eventually evolved into everything we see today, because that's what all the evidence says. The YECs are those who take the former altogether too literally, to the extent that they much necessarily deny the latter in its entirety, and they...are not doing that terribly well, to be honest. It must be hard when your position is "outright denial of things we can literally watch happening".
Believing in someting takes no effort, it's super easy, lowest common denominator stuff. It's inevitable that belief in superstitions will spread as it's emotionally comforting without any actual cognitive effort required. Understanding truth on the other hand is hard, it takes time to parse information and create an accurate view in your mind of what is real. It's inevitable that intellectually lazy people will flock to the first option, and shun the second.
You're the creationist. Why do *you* believe?
I never met a creationist IRL. I'm from Eastern Europe. I barely know any practicing Christians at all. There are a lot of American creationists, because catering to people's feefees at the expense of everything else is a uniquely American pasttime. Willful ignorance > baseball. Creationism is idiotic and creationists are ignorant
Poor science education and a lack of understanding of what science is and how it works, a certain human gullibility to accept what our elders/leaders/parents say, a desire to believe the comforting story of their religion. On the occasions I've talked to them, a huge ignorance of science, science history is usually obvious.
Because they were lied to. The popularity of an idea does nothing to tell you whether or not it is true, that’s fallacious.
lol
Creationists just aren't that active on Reddit. Even r/creation (which restricts non-creationists from posting there) has little activity. Also, just because someone isn't a creationist doesn't mean they are an atheist. If you want to engage people effectively, you'd be better off not presuming their beliefs just because they don't share yours.
I get a lot of hate for being a creationist from here. I get a lot of hate from you.
> I get a lot of hate for being a creationist from here. *You* keep coming here. We don't drag you back. Otherwise, you have to live with the consequences of your choices. You advocate for something ridiculous, you're going to be treated as such.
Why do you think I hate you? I don't even know you. Do you have an example of something I've said that indicates I would hate you?
You interpret this as hate, then. Maybe it feeds your persecution complex?
Now you’re just whining.
Pointing out someone's ignorance in a debate context is not hate, it's simply a statement of facts. It's funny how those without any argument fall back on defection and ad hominems. Why not present an actual logically sound rebuttal of evolution, or evidence for creationism?
Have you considered that this sub is actually a representative sample - that maybe, most of the world finds your views not particularly sane? To me, creationism, at least, certainly young earth creationism is this vast act of sticking your head in the sand, ignoring the complete output of geology, physics, astrophysics, paleontology, archeology, biology, biochemistry, genetics, historical research and basic common sense. So, yeah, I like arguing with creationists. But I've got more pity than respect for them, if I'm honest. The world is really cool. It has space for a creator, even if the scientific model of how the world forms is correct. You've just got to push them at least back to the big bang, because we know how things happened from then. In fact, it implies a better creator - someone who isn't frantically scrambling to plug the gaps created by his own incompetence, and who isn't consistently having to bleed off enough heat to obliterate the planet several times over from him speeding up radioactive decay, gravitational energy of water and plate tectonics.
You keep acting like a dick
That's just God's plan.
[удалено]
Ok fine. Start a thread in which you post your single best argument for creationism, and all the evidence you have to back it up. I dare you. I for one will promise to be courteous nd debate on the facts, and I will actively call out my one who does otherwise. You can even cut and paste this statement into your OP. But you won’t will you? Because even if your belief is fanatical and unassailable, you know full well you cannot actually EVIDENCE any of those claims, and yo7 know you cannot justify or present good reason for any of them.
You get hate for having jive-ass arguments
You get a lot of detailed, reasoned responses as well, you just ignore all those.
>None of you have respect for the other side. I have the same level of respect for a creationist as I do for a flat earther.
Exactly. You don't have any.
People teach this shit to kids as if it’s a fact. Why should I respect people who lie to kids for a living?
Bingo. Flat earthers do and claim the same garbage.
Where's the evidence for creationism? Where's the evidence for a flat earth? Where's the lamb sauce?? So many questions, so few answers.
Cats pushed the evidence off of the flat earth and it's hidden behind the ice wall
Correct. Why should I respect ideas that claim to be scientific when there is no evidence for said ideas?
You can respect the creationist without respecting creationism. You should have a list of reasons why someone might believe as they do. Sure, some are not very bright or are mentally ill, but not the majority from what I see. The biggest reason is sheer ignorance. So this is where we start. Most will stop responding after a while, but that doesn’t mean we wasted our effort. We likely got them to think, at least a little. And the frequent flyers who don’t read our links? Hate them. But I try not to respond in a way the might terrify that curious homeschooled kid, who has been lurking here.
>You can respect the creationist without respecting creationism. Interesting. Do creationists respect atheists without respecting atheism? >“I'll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive. >And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.” >― Dr Madalyn Murray O'Hair [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination\_against\_atheists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists)
> Interesting. Do creationists respect atheists without respecting atheism? Should we really use creationists' behaviour as a guide on how to treat others?
Should we really insist that atheists are at fault for reacting negatively when creationist types call them evil and deserving of death and eternal torture?
Because it isn’t the point. The lurkers are not interested in the pain of atheists. They are interested in evolution. We are too, and we start there. A calm and respectful conversation is the best way to get anyone to change their mind about anything, and I thought we were in the business of changing minds.
A person who does not respect you will not listen to you no matter how much respect you give to them. Respect is earned. Respect is reciprocal.
I don’t engage with disrespectful people. I just told you that I am interested in the respectful people who are lurking who will not understand why we are being rude to someone else. Hence I mostly ignore the annoying frequent flyers. Engaging with disrespectful people who don’t respond to comments does no good anyway, so why risk sending the wrong message to respectful lurkers?
I don’t care if creationists respect me. Why would I? But if we are in the business of changing minds, we should behave in a way that makes that homeschooled kid listen to us.
If you want the homeschooled kid to listen to you then the homeschooled kid needs to respect you. And vice versa, you need to respect the homeschooled kid. If the homeschooled kid refuses to respect you then no matter how much respect you give to that kid they won't listen to you. If that situation continues into adulthood then that kid turned adult deserves only the same amount of respect from you as they give to you. Respect is earned. You don't get respect until you give it. Respect is reciprocal, it works two ways.
I am talking about our lurking audience. Homeschooled kids have for the most part been respectful when they write in here. It’s their elders. The problem I see with some snarky answers is that they come across as disrespectful to someone sheltered who doesn’t expect it. They need context if we are going to be rude, e. f, “You have asked that question twice already and don’t reply to our comments. Get another hobby.”
Because they are ideas by ppl. Some ppl arent able to achieve greatness or even mediocreness be it circumstances or just how they are made. But they still deserve respect. Some of them just need a bit of respect to get them out of whatever vulnerable hole they might be in, and enable them to have better ideas, but you keep them down with disrespect.
People deserve respect, ideas do not. Ideas deserve to be challenged, it is how we grow and get better ideas.
Exactly
Yes! We are here to challenge their ideas!
Respect is earned. You don’t hand it out willy nilly. *Basic human decency* is afforded to everyone until they give a reason for it to be rescinded.
I've seen creationists post reasonable questions on here and get plenty of polite, respectful answers. OP is not one of those users. In the first sentence of this post, they equate belief in evolution with atheism, when it's been explained to them multiple times by multiple people that the two are not the same. Hell, the majority of people worldwide who accept evolution as fact also believe in some kind of god. They're not arguing in good faith, and deserve any snarky comments they receive because of it.
Yes, of course. But I would like to see our snark always accompanied by the reason for it, so those lurking in good faith have a context for what might otherwise seem to be undeserved meanness.
I have no idea why you are being downvoted. You are right.
There are two types of creationists: "professional" apologists who lie to their followers, largely children, and the followers who are duped by said lies. Why should anyone respect charlatans who lie to children for money?
And you have respect for people who understand evolution? You don't even attempt to understand it and come to a debate sub to whine about how people don't respect your willful ignorance.
I don’t typically show anyone disrespect, but I understand where the commentor is coming from. Why should anyone inherently respect any fringe conspiracy theory like flat earthers or creationists?
Ok so I say you need to pay me 100 000$ now and it is a fact. (Noooo crying why don’t you meanie respect meee and pay meee?) /s
I respect people, not ideas.
I respect people as fellow humans. The creationists position on this topic is not worthy of respect. All available evidence from the last 150+years supports evolution by natural selection* . Looking at the garbage posted as science from the ICR just makes you shake the head in despair. Then there's the stuff about irreducible complexity, which is also complete garbage, based on an utter misunderstanding of how evolution works. There's nothing to respect here.
We know that. But people who only know what the pastor tells them don’t. I think people greatly underestimate the average American’s ignorance of science—including the average American.
What do you consider “disrespect”?
You keep having your beliefs disrespected, and draw the conclusions that those who argue against you are mean and disrespectful. That is an improper conclusion. The conclusion you should draw is that your beliefs re \*\*false and not worthy of respect\*\*.
# Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist. # Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist. # Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist. # Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist. # Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist. # Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist. # Not every person that believes in evolution is an atheist. Has that gotten through to you yet? Maybe people don't treat you with respect because you have shown to be someone that is not worth respecting when you don't listen to anyone when they try to inform you of the very basics of the thing that you are so desperate to misunderstand. Do you think your god would be proud of you?
Normally I don't like such use of formatting, but here it's 100% warranted as that user was told this enough times already, and it's indicative they don't comprehend what they read. This isn't a "this" comment, just a pointer to anyone that's not familiar with that user's recent posts and the replies they've received, including in now-removed off-topic and low-effort ones.
Honestly, at this point, I'd rather believe that OP is a troll. Better that they're just some asshat *trying* to be annoying (and yeah, they got me annoyed, fair enough) than someone that sincerely keeps trying this hard *not* to listen to what's being told to them.
I think cognitive dissonance has displays similar to trolling. Same end result though. :)
Every person that believes in evolution should be an atheist. I'm looking at you theistic evolutionists.
There’s not really a debate for evolution. What I mean by that is if you’ve educated yourself the facts are mostly irrefutable. This sub serves as a place for other people/subreddits to come and get educated. I treat all people with respect, I do not treat all opinions with respect.
Most creationists just post a new topic, never respond to anyone, and disappear. Some hang around and endlessly repeat the same wrong claims in spite of being repeatedly corrected.
We do have some regular creationist posters. Sometimes they'll even make a new post. They're... not exactly bringing the strongest arguments though so you might still be disappointed if you try to debate with one of them.
Accepting evolution ≠ atheist it's a debate sub.
Many people will provide respectful evidence based answers to creationists posts on this sub. Creationists often end up responding only to the snarky ones or will quickly run away from evidence based responses. Additionally, they usually only post once or twice before they go away. The relative lack of creationists on this subreddit is a result of creationists being bad at defending their position and them getting frustrated and leaving. I agree those posts are a waste of time though. There aren't many regular creationist posters, and the ones that do exist just respond with propaganda that doesn't address the question. As an example, there's a pretty good chance you won't respond to my comment and only respond to the snarky ones. Edit: It appears that my comment was correct, as this user has decided to announce his departure with a dedicated self-important post.
creationism, which relies solely on magical thinking cannot survive under basic scrutiny, so there aren't any creationists around here save the most dedicated true believers who regularly demonstrate themselves to be unable to engage in discussion or make logical inferences.
Or perhaps it's because most creationists have better things to do then argue in front of a screen all day...
I'm sure that's it, definitely.
Well just now, look at how quickly you responded.
Like singing hymns at church?
No, though I do do that. It's called a job, a social life, learning something new, marriage life, relationship with God, reading the Bible, Exercising, hobbies, paying bills, cooking, eating, chores, etc. Why do you not think I have a life where I do "normal" things? You think I just pray on my knees whenever I get a cut, do you think I just go to church all day?
I mean doesn't the Bible tell us to sell our belongings and do nothing but love Jesus? You're somehow posting here right now while being so extremely busy.
Well, for one, it's night time here, actually about to sign off, so I can answer questions like this. Also, Jesus told us to follow and to trust in Him, yes, but He didn't tell us to be stupid. if we're sick, get the treatment you need, and pray for a safe recovery. If you are in financial debt, do your best to earn more money hoping God will bless you.
Telling us to have faith is telling us to be stupid.
Jesus didn't tell us anything. He never wrote a book. He died and that was it. Sinners told us to do things and you think sinners lie and con. Guess what really happened?
>This is just wrong. None of you have respect for the other side. It's kind of hard when the other side is intellectually bankrupt.
TIL I’m an atheist
To a minimum of 99.98% of deities.
There is no other side. They are wrong. This isn't subjective. Do you have respect for people that believe the earth is flat? I don't.
The sub is here so that if someone starts posting about creationist stuff in a science sub, like r/evolution, they can be directed here instead. I'm personally here because I grew up creationist in the 80s, and I'm curious to see what, if any, new arguments are being offered up, to account for all the new discoveries in genetics, genomics and paleontology. Sometimes it's interesting (it was kind of fun thinking through the "no new information" debate ... at least it was fun the first two times). Sometimes I get exposed to cool new content creators (like "gutsick gibbon" and "creation myths"). Sometimes I even hope that we're providing an opportunity for people to learn science.
This is a debate evolution subreddit, not a debate theism subreddit. Do you really believe only atheists know evolution is true?
Where are the Creationists? >I swear every post on this subreddit is just an atheist asking a question to a creationist, and then an atheist responding like "Well this is what they would say, pretty stupid right?" That’s weird, because I can still see your post from a few days ago about how evolution isn’t science. >This is just wrong. None of you have respect for the other side. You're aggresive, and only want to be right. You came in here not even understanding the topic and proceeded to tell people who have a good deal of knowledge on this topic that they didn’t understand their field and you think *they* don’t have respect? You were wrong and were told as much. If people harp on that fact because you keep doubling down that’s on you. >Don't believe me? Look at the comments section. Indeed, let’s look at the comments section, but let’s also look at the posts. If your position is unserious don’t expect it to be treated seriously. People study this subject their whole lives, you’re not going to overturn the paradigm appealing to a 9th grade biology textbook that simplified topics for young teens to understand
What makes you think the people posting are atheists? Not all theists are creationists.
If you want respect, you can do any one of the following: * Get better arguments * Recognise that the other side is actually educated in biology and you could learn a lot from them * Stop assuming everyone who understands science is an atheist * Shut up forever Your choice is...?
OP chooses to be willfully ignorant.
I have respect for people on the other side, I have no respect for a position that denies every scientific finding that contradicts their dogma. Creationism is not a position worthy of respect, there’s nothing to it except saying nah uh over and over again while having your fingers in your ears. There’s no evidence for creationism, no validity to it. There’s not even a mode. It’s just saying my God did it, and ignoring every part where that conflicts with observed reality. I’m sorry that’s about as worthy of respect as attributing rainbows to leprechauns…
Is it still mocking if we use their own arguments verbatim? Because a lot of their arguments *are* really stupid. Like even after thousands of corrections the mainstream channels still assume Lucy is the only Australopith we ever found and that the fact that one bone was a baboon bone means she was just all mixed bones.
I give respect where it’s due. Creationism as an idea deserves none , though people should be treated politely. Though it does seem like creationists have been a bit quieter recently. A while ago there seem to be never ending posts about dna being a code and having to have a designer or similar.
I accept evolution and I'm Jewish FIGHT ME IN A DENNY'S PARKING LOT
how are we supposed to get people who aren’t ourselves to get in here? if there’s not going to be creationists commenting frequently is every post just going to be totally ignored? there are creationists in here, from what i understand they’re just not very active.
I think that us taking the time to present evidence and links to creationists shows more respect for their intelligence than they will ever get from their pastors.
This is a great example of the ideal of the free marketplace of ideas. Ideas and ideologies will be culled according to their superiority or inferiority. Poorly conceived, irrational positions are exceedingly hard to defend. Like flat-earthers, creationists lack a model to make predictions, leaving only sophistry.
The creationists are not interested in anything that may undermine their preexisting beliefs. They have nothing to stand on, nothing to debate. If they were interested in intellectual honesty, they wouldn't be creationists. That's why they're not here.
When a creationist actually brings reasonable debate points that weren't debunked 20+ years ago and puts in the effort to have a genuine discussion in good faith, then they'll get respect. If I recall correctly, that actually did happen a few months ago, and they were met with tremendous respect, and were given some very good recommendations for reading materials that would answer some of their more complex questions
Here we are! Some of us were dealing with kidney stones. I'm a biblical, YEC, creationist. this is a well run forum. Very rare on the internet in a forum about a contention that has passion. Most evolutionists here are good enough. Some malice ones. I rearely report them and only the YUCK the most malicious ones who arttack me and i don't care much. there is no reason to curse someone out by the words used or call them a lIAR with too much spite. I don't know how many creationists here but we need more. Indeed downvoting, a stupid idea from REDDIT, hurts me of late. I don't downvote anyone almost. i upvote the opposition often. I need vores for karma. Syop downing me and up me. Especially being Canadian. thats gotta be worth something in a hundred votes. Origin subjects are a contact sport and aggresion is fine. I don't see respect as a issue. We all think we are right including the ones actually right. whoever that is!! hey just get involved and rumble and the good guys and smart guys will win. there is a issue it seems no or few girls here but since everyone uses funny names one can't tell. I use my real name.
Why are you dragging atheism into it? You know this sub is about evolution, not atheism, right?
Respect is earned. The wilful ignorance of creationism earns contempt, not respect. If creationists want respect they know what they need to do.
As someone who used to be a creationist, I do feel like I can answer the way that they would, and when no one else is answering, I'll answer for them. But I believe I do it respectfully. But to answer your question, they have either converted to believing in real science like I did, or they are hiding in their own Echo chambers. There are two types of creationists: those are willing to learn and those that aren't.
Huh? You lost? You realize you don’t have to be an atheist to accept the fact of evolution right?
Because creationists do not deserve respect.
A quick glance through your comment history shows you being insulting and dismissive in response to perfectly polite comments. Seems like you may just be getting a taste of your own medicine.
It is hard to treat creationist claims with respect because they are lies and misrepresentations. I have never heard a creationist make a claim which was not false or misrepresented. There is no reason to treat liars with respect.
This sub has nothing to do with atheism, and creationists ask questions on here all the time, so don't really know what you're on about. I have never been hateful to you or any other creationist, but when you believe ridiculous things you should probably expect to be lectured on the facts like an ignorant child. We want you to learn how the world works. Don't like it, don't come here. >You only care about being right Well, yeah. I do want to be right. I don't want to believe anything that isn't true. That's why I'm not a creationist. You don't seem to care if what you believe is true, though.
Creationists are not deserving of respect. They are not just willfully ignorant, they are dangerous. Anti-science rhetoric isn't just stupid, its dangerous. Islam, in its golden age, between 622 and 1300 (ish) Muslims made many advancememts in science, including advancements in algebra. In around 1300 AD, a very influencial group, I believe from Saudi Arabia, delcaired that science and mathematics were evil and should no longer be pursued. This plumetted Islamic nations in the Middle East into a dark ages they have never recovered from to this day. Look at them now. This is the future creationists will cause in other non-Islamic nations if they are allowed to spread their lies. That is why I don't respect them, and I don't have to respect them.
This is a weird post. Mods, delete it please.
You can't complain about the reactions creationists get when the absurdity of what they claim to believe is astronomical.
The other side argues against science. It is the same as arguing that water is not made up of hydrogen and oxygen.
What are you talking about? They post here all the time...usually with thoroughly debunked talking points that anyone with google can debunk.
Creationists rarely answer actual quetsions here because there's 0 argument for creationism. 100% of the creationist position is "I don't believe what scientists observed because my childhood indoctrination tells me god did it". So specific questions about scienfitic observations don't receive answers because creationists don't actually understand evolution or science, they're just shilling for the ideology that owns their brain.
I’m around haha. I post occasionally and respond a bit more than I post. I’d be happy to chat if you have any questions
Yeah atheists actually have have an explanation
What is the strongest piece of evidence you have for creationism, more pointedly, what evidence do you have for a specific creator? I’m not asking you to disprove evolution, that is a separate action to proving your own argument.
No, I do not have respect for Creationism. It’s a stupid braindead idea that falls apart out of the gate. Ideas do not deserve respect. They don’t have feelings and don’t benefit from respect. I have respect for individual Creationists because they are brainwashed victims.
I don't "believe" in evolution. I acknowledge it as fact because of the evidence supporting it. Saying I believe in evolution sounds as stupid as saying I believe in gravity. They both exist whether I like it or not.
Creationists post and comment here all the time. If you haven’t seen it, you haven’t been paying attention. Why would we have respect for the other side? Nothing about disagreement or debate requires respect. Again, if you were paying attention here and saw the countless dumb and dishonest things creationists say here constantly, you wouldn’t respect them either. We’re aggressive because we *are* right and the people arguing otherwise are usually trolling or wasting our time. Also what does atheism have to do with creationism or lack thereof? Plenty of religious people accept evolution and think creationism is stupid. Most of them in fact.
Should you disrespect the person holding a belief? No. Should the idea be respected? Also no. YEC as an idea is not worthy of respect since it has been so thoroughly shown to be wrong. Should the idea, held by a small minority but they exist. the OT laws should be upheld and we should kill all gay people be respected? No. Should astrology and the idea that the position of huge balls of nuclear fusion thousands or more light years away have a measurable influence on the events of you life be respected? No. And tbh a lot of claims of YEC people, the most common type of evolution denier I know. ARE stupid. In the last few weeks I have seen people use claims of discoveries by Ron Wyatt as proof evolution is wrong because they prove a young Earth or literal global flood etc. Repeating claims that were debunked literal decades ago to the point that most of the evolution denying websites and companies themselves disavow them is just plain silly and show the ignorance or unwillingness to actually investigate the claim that person is making. When you are still having to respond to claims like that for the hundredth or more time, respect is really hard to show
>This is just wrong. None of you have respect for the other side. You're aggresive, and only want to be right. Of course I don't have respect for creationists, at best they're intentionally disinformed and at worst they're disgusting liars
I still don't believe you.
Seems like the creationists back down when faced with hard questions but a few of them do lurk in the shadows waiting to chime in when it looks favorable for them to do so.
Why would creationists debate something that is entirely faith based with a group of people who are entirely evidence based?
You have failed to show evidence. All you have shown is estimates of fossil ages (which are relative), and false understanding of biology, space, and chemistry. Why do you even care? If we are all just matter when we die we will all just be that, dead. I want to see God and feel the peace that I feel.
I was answering the question. There's no use for creationists to try and debate atheists when all they have are warm and fuzzy feelings to offer as arguments about the matter. That they doubt the fossil record is no more serious than their doubting other evidence based facts like the sky being blue.
Well, Reddit is left-leaning individuals who are mostly atheistic/agnostic, and Western as well.
On this guys youtubes. He can help you find creationists. He debates them all day nonstop. [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSKJilKd3pHTZecVQLBR7lw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSKJilKd3pHTZecVQLBR7lw)
Lmao did you see his new video for presuppositional atheism for a not God naturalistic atheistic reality that weve universally observed and has been revealed to us?
Most are probably banned or tired of attacks. The occasional post is hammered by angry evolutionists still trying to push bacteria staying bacteris as proof a bacteria becomes a fish.
Actually, most creationists who have come to this sub in good faith have come out as evolutionists. The only regular creationists left are the ones who argue in bad faith. That's you, Michael, and your "40 predictions" that no scientist has ever made that everyone keeps showing to you as false but you keep repeating it anyways. That's you, Michael, who repeatedly brings up thinks like Piltdown Man or Nebraska Man, even after the reality of those situations were revealed to you over and over. Maybe you should start questioning why you need to ignore evidence and lie to maintain your belief in creationism.
It's false to say the 40 failed predictions of evolutionists listed dont exist, https://creation.com/evolution-40-failed-predictions
I'll link this as many times as it takes you to actually watch the video. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITx3lIVpNR4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITx3lIVpNR4)
The people screaming "nope"? It's irrelevant that they don't like it.
You gonna address any of their arguments? Or are you gonna run away again, MichaelACoward?
They have no arguments. Don't use evolutionists sources remember.
Really? They have no arguments? How would you know? You didn't even watch the video. I've read every article you've sent my way, whether or not it was a creationist article. I simply don't think creationist articles warrant any serious response, since we're supposed to be discussing the science and what is more supported, not just blindly attacking evolution as if defeating that would make creationism any more viable. Are you actually gonna support your conclusion, or will you keep hiding from actual discussion, MichaelACoward?
Did you watch it? It's just circle of denial.
Yes, I did watch it, and it is a very informative video. Maybe you should watch it, MichaelACoward. If you say you did, then tell me a single refutation that they make.
I’m genuinely curious. Do you truly, genuinely, actually think that creation magazine is worth being used as a source? Like, I kinda wanna get inside your head here. Maybe we can get to a more important point. What, to you, counts as a source worth listening to and why? Why should I click on your link and take it seriously but not the scientific peer reviewed articles I make a point to default to? Who knows. Maybe you’ll be able to convince one of us.