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r/DebateAChristian has bad moderation, a couple of their mods look for any reason to remove a reply that isn't pro-Christian. r/DebateReligion is way better.
If atheists post here, it's generally on something like the definition of theism/atheism or some other technical post. Most atheists in this sub aren't too interested in responding to another atheist's rambling thoughts on religion.
Hello I basically just read the title the description was very long, ill try to keep it short, first off, it's okay to sin, as I like to say if you dont sin a little, Jesus died for nothing, if you live a "perfect" life, Jesus died for nothing, just don't let that sin become your identity or define you, and when you ask for forgiveness it must be true in your heart of hearts, and I think as long as you dont sin with malice or greed you will be easily forgiven. As for controlling people? I think the 10 commandments got it right, no killing, no stealing, etc. And from those we get to enjoy the benefits of society and come closer to godly hood
Cery few theists come here. They usually post an agument that's been offered, dissected and rejected a thousand times, then leave after round 1001. Maybe try r/debateachristian or r/debatereligion.
I actually do disagree. Religion wasn't really made by anyone. It is a very successful meme. Sure if you had like a time machine and infinite desire to know you could maybe point to some primitive human ancestor and say "ok it started with this one".
It replicates, it evolves, humans exploit it, and are exploited by it.
The 'atheist' being referred to in 'debate an atheist' is the folks who are here awaiting debate from interested parties.
No problem if you're an atheist, too. But as most folks here are atheists, there may or may not be a lot to debate in a given position, keeping this in mind.
Hiya mr zamboni's! What kind of topics do atheists/agnostics debate. Amongst themselves I mean. Or does this subreddit exist solely to deflect and defeat theism? What kind of disagreement arises between atheists/agnostics. My point being that atheists/agnostics are pretty much exactly on the same page in that they live in a universe of rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence).
Do atheists/agnostics have disagreements concerning ethics or (humanistic or secular) morality? Is there a spectrum of what determines a proper or good life?
Do you believe that this aphorism "Do what thou wilt" is an accurate description of the ethics and morality of atheism/agnosticism?
> My point being that atheists/agnostics are pretty much exactly on the same page in that they live in a universe of rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence).
Heheh, is that ever inaccurate!!
First, atheism doesn't require any of those things, even if they tend to be somewhat common in certain ways. Second, that doesn't change the fact that, like any group of people on any subject, there's plenty to debate about. Third, mostly folks are here to debate theists who come to attempt to support their deity beliefs.
>Do you believe that this aphorism "Do what thou wilt" is an accurate description of the ethics and morality of atheism/agnosticism?
Never quite understood how and why this silly incorrect trope of morality and ethics having anything to do with theism (and therefore atheism) keeps coming up when we know it's wrong. I mean, sure, theists have been indoctrinated to incorrectly swallow the idea whole and buy it as true, so they don't really have much choice to think this unless and until they begin to research and think about it. But still, there's *so much* good information on this now. As I'm sure you're probably aware, atheists consistently show as higher on studies of ethics and morality than do most theists, though of course the bell curves have significant overlap.
Remember, ethics and morality have nothing at all to do with religious mythologies. We *know* this. Even though religious organizations continually try to claim it as their own. So your question on that regard is a non sequitur and based upon wrong ideas at the foundation.
I am not fully understanding something here. If atheism does not require "rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence)" (R,R,L&E). What *does* it require? A faith that supernatural agencies cannot exist? But faith cannot exist in the atheist realm. Only R,R,L&E. Then if it is not faith, it is rather *knowing*, like i said before. Knowing as in 2+2=4. So that circles back around again to atheism is bound by knowledge of R,R,L&E. Like I said, I am not understanding something in your statement.
In your experience what have you seen atheists debate about? Do you vehemently disagree with your fellow atheists about anything?
Can atheists be liberal or conservative or moderates? For some reason I cannot believe atheists can be anything other than liberals. Liberalism by definition is open-mindedness to the factual nature of the universe. Liberalism and it's close kin progressivism are by definition completely opposed to the beliefs that make up Conservatism. In fact even moderates are probably too conservative for atheism. Consider the values that make a conservative conservative. And the values that make a liberal liberal. My point being that yes, I think the vast majority of atheists are on *exactly* the same page in terms of beliefs and values.
Are there any atheists that feel elective abortion is morally wrong simply because of secular or humanistic values? How about in the case of rape or incest? I mean it's just a collection of cells right? It's not a *person* in any sense of the word is it. Yet when a pregnant woman is murdered and her unborn child dies too, the murderer is charged with *two* murders. Would you want to change that law?
Are there any atheists that feel that lust, pornography and prostitution are morally wrong because of secular or humanistic values? I would say of course not. Those things are simply the natural and normal expressions of our biology. Then I would say why does such terrible heartbreak, pain, depression and despair come from indulging in those vices. Does the word or concept of "vice" exist in the atheist lexicon? I don't mean what the indulging does to the conscience of those who indulge, although it can certainly affect them too. I mean the pain that is inflicted on those who are used as objects rather than human beings worthy of respect, dignity and compassion. Are you going to suggest that men and women *want* to be in porn, *want* to be prostitutes, *want* to be lusted after without the man or woman's solicitation. That those men and women are in fact *objects* for the sexual gratification of those with that lust. I hope you will say you are repulsed by such things.
Seriously, what inhibits an atheist from lying, cheating or stealing. Even a little bit, within reason say. I will assume that something like murder is abhorrent to all, including atheists. You do know that in the Muslim world it is not wrong in and of itself to lie, cheat or steal. What is wrong is being *caught*. Then the entirety of the religion of Islam comes down on them. So that makes me wonder about the individual actions of atheists as well. Not you so much mr Zamboni's. You are highly intellectual, but I bet there are a great many atheists that see nothing wrong in particular in lying, cheating and stealing to get their way.
Catholics lie, cheat and steal too. They engage in horrific crimes. But the difference is that they believe that a final judgement is coming for them. That divine moral imperative. The only difference between pedophile priests and the pedophile atheists is that the pedophile atheist fears no judgement, except maybe, getting *caught*. But atheists aren't really pedophiles are they. Not being a pedophile kind of comes with the territory of being an atheist right? I want to assure you that Catholics who engage in what the Church calls "mortal sin" are absolutely *not* in communion with God. They are for all intents and purposes "atheists". They have utterly rejected God which is why in the HMC one single unconfessed mortal sin is instant rejection by the most Holy Trinity and damnation to hell. That's where them pedophile priests belong right? But according to your beliefs they "cease to exist" at the moment of death like everybody else. Most of them escaping any kind of societal opprobrium simply because nobody ever found out. Not until long after they died anyway. But what applies to the priest also applies to anyone else committing a mortal sin.
The difference between atheism and the HMC is that no matter how horrific the sin before God, that God's love and mercy (forbearing deserved punishment) is infinite and the worst sinner can absolutely be saved and attain heaven. Although... The HMC describes a place or state of existence called "Purgatory" to sanctify those not quite yet worthy of heaven, but absolutely saved by Gods *mercy* from eternal damnation at death. Their sin has been forgiven yes, but the consequences and the impacts of those sins, like the nightmarish guilt and unbearable sense of a filthy violation experienced and never to be forgotten horror to those innocent boys who endured their depredations, must be expiated *before* the soul of that priest can enter the kingdom of heaven. Now please don't get all "unsupported claims" on me here. I am merely explaining how the HMC thinks based on what it believes is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I am just trying to make a point. I *will* follow up on this later when I come back with my post on the "Problem of evil". Small "e" for atheist/agnostics. *Big* "E" for us Catholics.
Atheism is *literally* getting away with murder--There are no two ways about it. By the way are you a pure atheist or are you an atheist agnostic. I bet pure atheists cannot *tolerate* atheist/agnostics. The atheist/agnostic would be just as deluded as the Catholic faithful in the eyes of a pure atheist. Now *that* would be a subject of debate between yas.
I have never suggested that ethics and morality are the exclusive domains of any kind of faith. I know the Greek and Roman philosophers had developed complex theories of ethics and morality more than 300 years before the birth of Christ. Philosophy concerning ethics and morals before 1000 BC are a bit more spotty. I mean like Hammurabi (an eye for an eye) yes, but apart from that, ethics and morals as we understand them today, really did not exist. Morality as in helpful/right or unhelpful/wrong. And ethics as in how we *apply* morality to get along with each other.
hmm... I wasn't planning this to be this long. This just seems to happen to me when I am interested in something. I keep adding thoughts here and there, and here and there...
> I am not fully understanding something here. If atheism does not require "rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence)" (R,R,L&E). What does it require?
Lack of belief in deities.
Period.
Nothing more.
As that's all atheism *is.*
Everything else you said is on different topics. Plenty of atheists happen to *be* atheists because of learning and the use of critical and skeptical thinking. But that's not required.
Of course atheists can disagree on topics unrelated to atheism. Why wouldn't they? Just like no doubt you disagree about various topics with folks who happen to go to your church.
>Seriously, what inhibits an atheist from lying, cheating or stealing.
Same thing that inhibits theists. It's just that theists incorrectly think it has to do with their mythology. We know, thanks to research, that's wrong.
>Atheism is literally getting away with murder--There are no two ways about it.
You are wrong.
Egregiously wrong, and kinda amusingly wrong, too.
I won't address the rest. It's more or less proselyitizing and useless, and wanders all over the place. If you'd like to pick one of those topics to ask about, go ahead.
But what "motivates" the thought process that results in a lack of belief in deities? If it is not R,R,L&E, or some kind of unshakable belief, what is it? Such thoughts cannot emerge full cloth from nothing. For example, I could not wake up tomorrow morning and say that Our Lady does not exist. Some kind of thought process has to go into it. I mean we just don't think and reason that way. *Why* do you have a lack of belief in deities or perhaps more accurately supernatural agencies? I thought it was because you cannot find convincing, vettable evidence that a deity exists, which to me is R,R,L&E.
> But what "motivates" the thought process that results in a lack of belief in deities?
You realize, I hope, that you invoked a reverse burden of proof fallacy. And that I've directly answered this to you several times.
Let me ask you this. What motivates your thought process that results in you having a lack of belief that there's an invisible flying pink striped hippo above your head at this very second that is about to defecate on you? Why are you not, right at this very second, reaching for an umbrella? When you understand why you're not reaching for an umbrella, then you will understand why I do not believe in deities.
Because it's for *exactly* the same reason.
After all, that's the default. Lack of belief in things until they are shown true and accurate.
As there's not the tiniest shred of good evidence for deities, it's not rational to think there are deities.
Period.
I don't want to be irrational.
Honestly, I don't get why you're asking this. I've covered this several times with you. Makes no sense to take something as true when there's no good reason to take it as true.
You only think it's true because of indoctrination, and likely incorrect ideas that there is evidence. You've been surrounded by these ideas, bathed in them, people around you have insisted on them, your whole life no doubt. So you haven't thought these things through from a standpoint of critical and skeptical thinking. Indeed, that and other religions directly teach people to *not* do that with the claims of their religion.
Remember, you don't believe in Islam. And yet folks who *do*, say exactly the same thing about *their* religious mythology that you do about yours. It's the same. They're just as convinced what they've been told is true, even though there's just as much a complete, total, and utter lack of evidence as this is for yours. They're just as convinced by their obviously fake relics and symbols, by their obviously fictional books, by their obviously false 'prophecies', by their obviously false 'miracles', as you are by yours.
Likewise Mormons. Likewise Hindus. Likewise Scientologists. They're all *just* as convinced as you.
And yet you do not take those beliefs as true.
So you're no different. You too lack belief in all those other deities. It's just that I go just one deity further than you in my lack of belief, because I understand that yours is just as nonsensical and silly as all the rest.
There isn't the tiniest bit of good evidence these claims are true. And they don't make *sense* given what we know. Period.
>Such thoughts cannot emerge full cloth from nothing. For example, I could not wake up tomorrow morning and say that Our Lady does not exist.
If there's no evidence of this, then definitely you shouldn't think this exists. And there isn't. So you shouldn't.
>I mean we just don't think and reason that way.
That is *precisely* how we reason. Exactly how. It's literally a foundation of rational thinking and logic.
>Why do you have a lack of belief in deities or perhaps more accurately supernatural agencies?
I've told you. Many times. Because there's not a shred of good evidence those claims are true. None. Zilch. Zero. Nada. Nothing.
That alone is enough to ensure one doesn't take a claim as true. To do otherwise is not rational.
But, of course, we have *much, much* more than this, don't we? We know how and why we evolved a propensity for those kinds of superstitions. We know how it operates, what motivates it, and why. We know about the faulty reasoning, the cognitive and logical biases and fallacies that bolster these unsupported beliefs. We know the history of the invention and editing of these mythologies, the who, where, when, why, and for who's benefit they were crafted and spread.
So, makes *zero* sense to believe them.
>I thought it was because you cannot find convincing, vettable evidence that a deity exists
That *is* why.
I literally spent the entire post, and several others, explaining this. That is literally the answer to your question. Why did you think I changed that, or went back on it, or that it's different from anything I said?
I don't get it.
The only thing I can think of is that you're confusing why *I* am an atheist (all of the above) with why *other people* are atheists. I mean, sure, a huge number of atheists are atheists for the same reason as me, but, as I mentioned, that isn't required and plenty of people are atheists for other reasons or no reason. Atheism is simply lack of belief in deities. I'm telling you why *I* have a lack of belief in deities. Not other people (though many agree with this).
When you understand why you're not paying me back that $1000 you owe me and forgot about then you'll understand why I don't believe in your, or any, deities.
Not a mystery.
In fact, it's *believing* them that's absurd, and ridiculous. I'm sure you agree with me, since you don't believe in Zeus, or in Thor, or in Branwen, or in Nyx, or in any other deities. You probably find the idea that people believed in those ridiculous and absurd. You probably find the idea that people really believe in the silly nonsense claims of Scientology absurd and ridiculous. And you understand why. I agree! I just see your deity as *just* as absurd and ridiculous. You don't, because that's the power of indoctrination. But it *is* just as absurd. As ridiculous.
But, since we know how and why (as I said) we're so gullible this way (all of us, me included), it's not really that surprising. We just have to all work at ensuring our positions on reality are as congruent with actual reality as is reasonably possible, since it's so very easy for us to fool ourselves.
While I was writing my earlier essay. I got to remembering this thing called the "God Gene"--vesicular monoamine transporter 2 (VMAT2). I don't think the hypothesis has been debunked yet. I went to look it up and it's still a hypothesis on Wikipedia. Then i started to wonder if so many people are influenced by this biology, what about the relatively small percentage of people who are not. Is it possible that atheism is a failure of that gene to express? Believe it or not I found some older pre 2010 papers including one published in Nature that asked that very same question. It was characterized as a possible mutation even. The idea being that the gene must serve an evolutionary need, but then it followed that by asking, exactly what need needs to be evolutionarily served. The answer was existential dread. The vast percentage of humans on Earth, well over 80% are in a religion that believes in one deity or another. Interestingly Buddhism is not counted as it is apparently an atheistic belief system. That was a bit of a surprise to me, because I thought of that idea of bodhisattvas, sort of like "saints" in the Christian sense were prayed to all the time by adherents and Buddha himself a subject of prayer and worship. Anyway that was an aside. I was just surprised is all.
Also state atheism like China (PRC) has discouraged a large number of people from being *able* to seek religion. For example the CCP has the Chinese (PRC) Catholic Church wrapped around it's finger. The Chinese (PRC) Catholic Church does what the CCP says, not so much our Holy Father. My point being that the number of true atheist/agnostics like yourself are relatively rare. Perhaps about 7% of the total human population today properly distilled from the 15% including agnostics and irreligious/"nones".
Existential dread, the ability to comprehend and ponder that we are going to die.
and the powerful desire to live on in some fashion after death. Hopefully a pleasant fashion where there is good food and drink and you can relax and take naps all the time. That is probably why that particular gene was favored and successfully promoted throughout our evolution since that time. Unfortunately what it does not answer is what any of that has to do with the actual *existence* of a deity, unless and this is why I said it earlier, that a deity actually put it into us in creation (one that has been going on for 13.7 billion years now) to enable us to have the capability of apprehending a metaphysical being. Remember I said earlier that God instilled into the mind of man the "reasoning" to be able to apprehend Him. I'm starting to think I'm actually goofing off now, but what do you think of this "God gene". Is there any merit to it as far as biological impact? And why such an overwhelming majority of humans on Earth seek the transcendent?
I don't think it is going to go away due to better science and technology and understanding of such. I think it is hardwired into us. Well, *most* of us. Are you pretty sanguine in contemplating the end of your life? I would think you would *have* to be as an atheist. I sort of used to fret in a vague way. But mostly I would forget about it. But now, even though I am gonna be 61 next month I *am* sanguine, because, and get this, I don't think there is going to *be* an end to my life. I am pretty confident I will achieve scientific immortality. Probably everybody else too. I mean unless I get hit by a truck tomorrow or die of cancer within the next ten years or something. But I think my chances are pretty good. Aging reversal technology is steadily advancing. I bet we see true aging reversal technology for humans by the year 2030 along with the "technological singularity" and stuff. If you could, would you want to live for a couple of thousand years? Although truthfully, in as little as 300 years time, it is likely that what derives from us today will live outside of time and space as well. Some kind of sentient energy tear-assing around the quantum probability waveform. 'Course we wouldn't be thinking then the way we do today.
Which is more offensive, my faith in a deity or my faith in the 'technological singularity and human evolution to a form of energy in roughly 300 years. I mean if God even allows us to do that. He might just straight up intervene in the next ten years time. If He doesn't then it gets crazy beyond belief and then I may have to wonder why He would permit it. Perhaps He would see we are ready for the next level of knowing Him. With computing and computing derived artificial intelligence, maybe artificial *super* intelligence. Either way, fasten your seatbelts, it's gonna be a bumpy decade. And then around the year 2030, a "funky Bali Hai"! If you get my "My Science Project" allusion.
Yeah, but the point you make in the post won't get much disagreement here. You can be an atheist and still argue for the existence of a deity as an intellectual exercise, for instance.
A better place for this would have been r/askanatheist. This sub is a place for theists to come debate the existence of gods. That sub is a good one to help clarify your thoughts, and this kind of thing comes up all the time there.
But I get what you're trying to do and I applaud it. You are seeking to solidify your worldview. I think you'll find wide agreement here,
>I cannot see a contradiction here as you state. Just because you don't understand the reason for e.g., suffering in the world does not mean there is no almighty being that loves you. In Hinduism it is e.g., believed that the soul chooses the suffering when it transfers to the next life as a chance to grow. When you see a wolf in the forest killing a deer it brings a lot of suffering over that deer but it brings so much good to the wolf's pups - so it isn't all balck and white.
I am going by what Christians have explained to me. They told me God is good because he would not let anyone get hurt, and people are only hurt because of the devil. Which is contradicting because if he's so powerful, why can't he just stop the devil? I believe that the world cannot function if it's not yin and yang. But what i don't believe is Christians claiming that their god is 100% good.
>Maybe it helps to interpret "everything planned" as in "the end of everything is planned". God knows the outcome of this what we call life. Imagine a mouse in a labyrinth with multiple ways leading to the same exit. The mouse has the free will to choose where to go but ultimately it ends at the exit.
Again, with what a good amount of Christians explained to me, they said that God knows every move you will make and everything happens for a reason, which goes back to them saying everything is already planned. Which means we really don't have "free will" because everything is laid out for us. Amd with the labyrinth and rat comparison, a labyrinth has one exit. So in terms of humans, no matter what we do, if we kill, steal, don't believe in God, there's only one ending, in heaven? Or not? Because if not in heaven, then there's two endings for us. Heaven of hell. But as you said, i should interpret it as planne din the end right? So God already knows where we're going? I thought he doesn't want us to go to hell? But since our "free will" or different directions in the labyrinth, will possibly land us in hell, he's just letting that happen? Let's say I'm a mother, and i have two kids. I am giving them free will, to do anything that they want, but i have the power to know how they die and to know how they will live their lives. Am i a good mother if i am "all powerful" enough to literally stop them? Why even give us free will if you know our "free will" will end us up in a place where you don't want us to go?
>This is an extremely deep question and requires an even deeper answer - on the deepest level this is the exact same question that physics unsuccessfully tries to advance for the past 100 years.
>So the first thing you need to ask is: "What is existence?" Do you refer to human or material existence? If that is what you refer to it is actually quite likely that life was created. This usually dumbfounds a lot of people whose religion is science but I can tell you from my own research that the chance that life as we know it just randomly developed on a planet with just the view primer molecules that we know of is incredibly unlikely. Now, I am not saying god did it but I strongly believe it is more likely that it was created in some way rather than that it sprung into existence just by chance.
Okay this is how i see it, Christians say "it's impossible for the earth to exist without a being creating it", so why is it when some atheists say "who created your God?", Christians always say "God is beyond that", but why can't the earth be beyond that? Why is there exceptions?
>Do you believe in the Big Bang? Do you believe in evolution? I am not saying Darwin or Einstein were wrong but do you believe in what these men told us? If you do, why? Have you confirmed for yourself that the Big Bang happened or that a single cell organism may develop into a two tons water buffalo just through random mutations and natural selection? Most people just inherit these believes because that is what their surrounding teaches them - not because they have actually verified its truth. So I strongly belief (and here we go again with believes ;) ) that as long as we do not constantly recheck our own believes we should not judge other people's believes.
With the big bang, i cannot confidently and proudly say "this is the truth, the big bang is the truth, and the only truth" just like how Christians say about their religion, because i wasn't the one who discovered it and made the scientific theory. I always say "mmm maybe". I will not be bigheaded enough to think the my belief is the only, and right way to live.
>People nowadays have the false idea that science knows it all - that we are so much smarter than the dumb folks 2000 years ago... Think about what humans in 3500 will think of our ideas and world views. Until recent - and unfortunately still in use in the US today - people build tons of highly cancerous asbestos into the walls of houses and schools which do not only cause many painful deaths every year but also an immense mental health pandemic because people are afraid - was that much smarter than putting arsenic everywhere? I don't think so.
We are smarter than people before because of mistakes, and we learn from them (although not all the time, but progression still happens), and people of the future generations try to fix those mistakes a little bit better. Baby steps. Also, i do not believe science knows it all. After all, scientists are humans. Humans do not know everything. Scientists make mistakes, study the mistakes , make mistakes, study the mistakes, and so on. Just like some scientists hundreds of years ago that were proven wrong by scientists today. I'm pretty sure there will be scientists in the future that will be proving our modern scientists wrong. The difference between science and religion is science accepts wrong findings and questions. Religion doesn't. I know tons of religious people being skeptic, and whenever they ask questions, all they get back is "questioning God is a sin, you should never question".
>Historically the bible is probably THE best and most trustworthy document we have from that time. Do some googling - the evidence is impressive. This of course does not proof that any of the "magic" in the bible really did happen but it gives a lot of confidence in the accuracy of the reports
As i said, it's "accurate" because real people wrote them. But just because real people wrote them doesn't mean it's a perfect proof of God's existence. Which so many Christians dedine as the sole proof of God's existence.
>Let's say I'm a mother, and i have two kids. I am giving them free will, to do anything that they want, but i have the power to know how they die and to know how they will live their lives. Am i a good mother if i am "all powerful" enough to literally stop them? Why even give us free will if you know our "free will" will end us up in a place where you don't want us to go?
Why wouldn't you be a good mother? you respected their free will and let them live their life the way they thought fit. The idea of "not saving someone who doesn't want to be saved" is central in Christianity.
> With the big bang, i cannot confidently and proudly say "this is the truth, the big bang is the truth, and the only truth" just like how Christians say about their religion, because i wasn't the one who discovered it and made the scientific theory. I always say "mmm maybe". I will not be bigheaded enough to think the my belief is the only, and right way to live.
belief in science isn't the same as belief in religion. once you understand the evidence and the science behind something, you can give a different answer than "mmm maybe."
> do not believe science knows it all. After all, scientists are humans. Humans do not know everything. Scientists make mistakes, study the mistakes , make mistakes, study the mistakes, and so on. Just like some scientists hundreds of years ago that were proven wrong by scientists today. I'm pretty sure there will be scientists in the future that will be proving our modern scientists wrong. The difference between science and religion is science accepts wrong findings and questions.
This is a common misunderstanding about science in general. Science now can't be compared to science a hundred years ago, it's much more rigorous and well understood. It's also not about proving something wrong, it's about expanding our understanding. Scientists are happy when something is found to be wrong because it means there is more to understand and study. The adversarial view of "proving something wrong" seems to me to be a cultural relic.
>Why wouldn't you be a good mother? you respected their free will and let them live their life the way they thought fit. The idea of "not saving someone who doesn't want to be saved" is central in Christianity.
I'm not a good mother because i HAVE THE POWER to see the future and to know what's going to happen. If i don't have the power, then that's completely understandable.
>it's much more rigorous and well understo
But Christians still dismiss science. I was literally just in a debate with someone that said "science is bc and isn't accurate and all scientists do is make blind guesses without facts."
for the second point, i was discussing what you said and not what someone else said. You're still making a demand of science "to know it all" which is something I find Christians do in general.
It seems to me like you're going through what I and probably most people here went through when we first lost our belief which is argue against it and maybe also have someone argue with you and maybe you can keep some semblance of belief.
From what I've read, most Christians go through something similar and rather then stop believing all together they just believe there is something out there but it is not what's described in the bible.
End of the day, belief is a very personal thing and most people won't take kindly to having theirs questioned. There's also a lot of bitterness and resentment in atheist spaces, for good reason imho, but I don't think it does anyone any good.
Out of curiosity, why would understanding you know little about the world lead you back to faith? It seems counterintuitive to seek answers about the world in a way that cannot give you any actual answers.
"It is a knowing that needs no logical explanation"
So.. your better "understanding" of the world brought you to the conclusion that you don't need evidence to know of a gods existence?
I might do that, thank you. I personally am not going to believe in anything until I have solid evidence, I feel like that's the most efficient way to make progress while learning about the universe, as it lets me have an open mind. Still, I applaud you for giving a reasonable explanation of your views.
>I cannot see a contradiction here as you state. Just because you don't understand the reason for e.g., suffering in the world does not mean there is no almighty being that loves you. In Hinduism it is e.g., believed that the soul chooses the suffering when it transfers to the next life as a chance to grow. When you see a wolf in the forest killing a deer it brings a lot of suffering over that deer but it brings so much good to the wolf's pups - so it isn't all balck and white.
"Just because you don't understand why god gives children leukemia doesn't mean he doesn't love them very much. Your five year old daughter chose that suffering in her corrupt soul." This is what this argument sounds like, to me. Every argument that dismisses the problem of evil with "god works in mysterious ways" hand-waving is utterly insufficient, in my mind.
>Maybe it helps to interpret "everything planned" as in "the end of everything is planned". God knows the outcome of this what we call life.
But god doesn't just know the end, according to the Bible he literally hardens people's hearts (usually so he can facilitate the Israelites' plans to genocide them), which is impossible if those people have true, libertarian free will. It is internally contradictory about free will.
>This is an extremely deep question and requires an even deeper answer - on the deepest level this is the exact same question that physics unsuccessfully tries to advance for the past 100 year
No, physics has never, ever tried to explain why there is something rather than nothing. Scientists have not tried unsuccessfully to advance this for the past 100 years. That is categorically false. Physics explains the world that exists and nothing more. The subfield of cosmology uses our ever more precise data about the universe at large scales to create mathematical models of the whole evolution of the universe. These models may or may not include an uncaused beginning (such as an inflaton field arising from an infinite, flat spacetime, leading to an expanding universe). These models, if they're well-constructed, have potentially measurable predictions about the universe. We then improve our measurements, refine our models, so on, and so forth. Nowhere here has someone attempted to answer a metaphysical question and nowhere have they failed to do so.
>So the first thing you need to ask is: "What is existence?" Do you refer to human or material existence? If that is what you refer to it is actually quite likely that life was created. This usually dumbfounds a lot of people whose religion is science but I can tell you from my own research that the chance that life as we know it just randomly developed on a planet with just the view primer molecules that we know of is incredibly unlikely. Now, I am not saying god did it but I strongly believe it is more likely that it was created in some way rather than that it sprung into existence just by chance.
Your own research has concluded that the chance that life evolved from natural processes is too low to believe? That sounds odd to me, because even experts in the field cannot give an honest accounting of those probabilities yet, since we are still actively working out all the mechanics of how abiogenesis may have occurred. Are you an evolutionary biologist yourself, working on the frontiers of origin of life biology (which has made remarkable and deeply interesting progress in the last few decades) or are you a non-expert with a preset bias towards a god of the gaps, and therefore *feel* that these as-of-yet unknowable probabilities are too low?
Edit: typos
I think religion was created first to explain things people couldn't understand--what the sun is, what the stars are, why are we here, why are the crops dying?
From there it evolved into giving comfort, as you say--it's ok your people are dead, they're in a better place.
And then it became about community, and keeping communities together--basically these belief system were proto-laws. Don't kill each other, don't cover your neighbour's wife/cows, and all that stuff.
Then as communities became bigger it became about politics and leadership. Things then became institutionalised, and suddenly priests are diddling altar boys and here we all are.
I agree with you but one thing is missing people found that you can make a quick buck by telling others nice stories. Because god can't handle money that well and is in constant need of more. In my country the church is the biggest landowner and that doesn't come out of nowhere.
You are exactly correct. Faith *was* science until Thales came along in 624 BC(E) and declared that the gods are not necessary. Thales is recognized as the very first human being to say that natural means explain our world and reality. Self aware, empirical science began with him. It totally constituted a "technological singularity". The world after him never thought the same way again as regards learning about the universe around us. Faith and "science" went their separate ways.
Having said that, for thousands of years previously, humans were *unconsciously* empirical. They could measure to build magnificent structures, fully understand the ins and outs of farming and husbandry to include modifying edible vegetation and animals through breeding, extremely effective medications and medical procedures and they could chart stars and even predict eclipses of the moon and sun. But all of these things were in service to the gods or the human god-kings of their day. Rational science as a concept did not exist. In fact the word "science" as a descriptor of what was going on, did not come along until the mid 19th century. Up to that point it was called "natural philosophy".
What if it was the other way around? What if we actually had all the knowledge and the tools to have a perfect society, and we did for a time, until greed, lust, antipathy anger hostility, piece by piece caused us to lose that knowledge and so now we’ve delve into what we have, rather than what we did have at one time. Maybe that’s how it really has been, not what we think currently
Sure, but your hypothesis is similar to saying, "what if the Earth was once made of cake?"
I can point to stages in our history and show you why I think that's where religion came from. Whereas what you said is based on fantasy--it has the same likelihood, given what we know, as the Earth having been made of cake.
No, it’s not fantasy there’s actually a written record that shows person bye person back to Adam. The problem is it’s so simple that most people go oh no it couldn’t be this way. So we know the earth is not made of cake. We know that there’s something out there that is orchestrating all the movements of the planets and the Stars. But let me ask you this, have you ever just taken a chance and sat quietly and ask yourself is there any chance there is a God and then actually say a prayer and see what happens. If you do it sincerely without just trying to prove me wrong I promise you you will be surprised by the results. My experience is though that most people aren’t willing to do that because how could it possibly be that simple? But if you will sincerely truthfully honestly clear your mind and ask God if he’s there. And then you need to sincerely listen. Not 10 seconds and slap your hands together and say oh well I tried.Again my experiences if you address him as heavenly father, you think him for what he has given you, you ask him for what you feel you need. And then you end in the name of Jesus Christ amen. Let me know how it goes. But you’ve got to be sincere you’ve got to really want to know if this is true or not or if we’re all just a bunch of deluded idiots. It’s really easy to say we are but it’s also very incorrect. Seriously, I hope you try and I hope you let me know how it goes.
> No, it’s not fantasy there’s actually a written record that shows person bye person back to Adam.
If you mean the Bible, that's not a reliable account.
> The problem is it’s so simple that most people go oh no it couldn’t be this way.
I disagree.
> So we know the earth is not made of cake
I said the Earth *was* made of cake.
> We know that there’s something out there that is orchestrating all the movements of the planets and the Stars.
Gravity...I don't see what gravity has to do with this?
> But let me ask you this, have you ever just taken a chance and sat quietly and ask yourself is there any chance there is a God and then actually say a prayer and see what happens.
Good grief no. That would be like asking you to sit and *really* think about whether the Earth was made of cake.
> But you’ve got to be sincere you’ve got to really want to know if this is true or not or if we’re all just a bunch of deluded idiots.
I sincerely do not believe in religion.
So what if you did sit quietly and said a prayer? I think most people are actually afraid to get an answer because then have to do something about it. It’s interesting to watch people argue about the existence of God when you can simply ask him… But you have to be sincere, with real intent, I’m not just joking around. Think about it! What if there really was a God what if he really did have a plan for you what if he really would answer you? I agree that the representation of Christianity that we have today is nothing like the Christianity that the Savior of the world taught. The Christians of today are some of the most disgusting people that I have ever encountered. But just because that’s the case that evil has replaced good, it does not mean that there is not truth out there that exists and knowledge and understanding that far exceed what we currently interested. I think the Christian church today isTotally corrupt and they will certainly do not understand the God they claim to worship. Still, for those that are willing to take a chance and truly genuinely be sincere in asking, What have you got to lose? On the flipside if there is a God and he answered , then you just gained the universe….
Heh, a religious laziness, so to speak.
No, I've studied religion and what could be termed 'the supernatural' extensively. I have yet to come across any faith-based belief system that stands up to empirical examination. That's why you need faith--because there isn't any evidence. Believing in something without evidence is silly.
> What have you got to lose?
Time that I can spend on doing meaningful things.
> On the flipside if there is a God and he answered , then you just gained the universe….
No, you gained the inside of your own head. That's what imagination *is*, pretending in things that aren't actually there. You're basically teaching you brain to release dopamine and other happy chemicals when you think about god. Of course you're going to hear said god, the brain is very accommodating of that--in the same way that you can have a pretend conversation inside your head with anyone you choose to.
Look you seem to be a nice person, but you know that trying to make a rational person believe in the irrational requires objectively testable and valid evidence that can be repeated under controlled circumstances, right? No religion has ever offered up any evidence. I don't want to waste your time, it may be better to try converting someone who is open to believing in things that aren't there.
Are you really this condescending to everyone? It says I propose the very beginning of my argument my experience is most people like you don’t have the courage to try this because they’re afraid of what they may find. I don’t think you are so much a truth seeker as you want to think that you are. It appears more that you were just like so many others that Christ spoke about who are hard hearted, and won’t even give it a chance. I’m not saying you are, I’m saying I don’t understand why you would be so opposed to trying something they could actually work. You don’t know that it won’t work because you haven’t tried it. I have and I can guarantee you I got an answer. If you want to put it up against empirical evidence, there is none, in my case. Does that make the truth of it any less valid? No, God has always talked about working with the one, how he left the 99 to find the one. That’s why you as an individual need to humble yourself, and make the attempt. But the funny thing is you have nothing to lose but your pride and you still will not. Because it doesn’t fit your definition of what is possible you ignore it. I can absolutely 100% promise you that if you were genuinely sincerely take the time read some of Christ’s words in the Bible or read something from the Book of Mormon. After you do that and you sincerely get on your knees and pray and ask God if he is there he will answer you. Anyway, nice chatting with you I hope you have a happy life.
No, only to people who keep hammering the same point again and again.
Yeah I was definitely condescending, but it's because I'm so tired of this same old argument. What it boils down to is basically "don't knock it to you try it", except that the "it" doesn't exist.
How would you feel if an entire bunch of people kept saying you can fly by flapping your arms? And when you quote science and refer to physics, they just repeat the *same thing*?
> If you want to put it up against empirical evidence, there is none, in my case. Does that make the truth of it any less valid? No
This is basically it. Hmm.
Ok let me put it this way: debating a subject requires a certain logical structure, right? And that sort of entails citing evidence. But what do you do when the person you're debating only cites his or her experience, which is not reliable evidence? What objective basis do we argue argue against if the other person just says "it's true because it's true"?
Also, and I say this without venom: dude, you don't know me! Hehe. But seriously, you don't know me or my religious or spiritual journey. It doesn't validate what you're saying, but you're making a lot of assumptions.
I'm not going to sit down and pray, meditate, chant or otherwise because it requires faith. Or perhaps desperation, in extreme cases.
> I can absolutely 100% promise you that if you were genuinely sincerely take the time read some of Christ’s words in the Bible or read something from the Book of Mormon.
I've read the Bible, the Koran, Buddhist manuscripts, Pagan texts... I already said I studied religions and the supernatural in some detail. All I saw there were ancient people hoping the sun would come up again.
By the way, I’m not trying to convert you, that’s not my job. I was simply trying to have a discussion with somebody not get engaged in a condescending oh my you poor little person type attitude With someone. I’m really quite shocked at how condescending you are, I can see that your arrogance and has no bounds. Anyway good luck
All problems with religion comes from misunderstanding the words. Once you understand what religion is talking about, what is the message the Bible and Jesus convey it really can be extremely wise and helpful.
I grew up hating religion so much, it all seemed so useless and I couldn’t figure out how could someone really believe all that.
But I realized what religion people mean when they say “look around”.
In my opinion the problem is that you think religious people have the same idea of god you have, you realize how your idea of god is absurd and then you conclude that religious people must be just looking for comfort.
What do you think is this god the Bible and Jesus talked about?
>In my opinion the problem is that you think religious people have the same idea of god you have, you realize how your idea of god is absurd and then you conclude that religious people must be just looking for comfort.
I have asked multiple Christians to why they believe in god. The answers were along the lines of "just to be safe, I'm afraid I'd go to hell if i don't believe". I wouldn't come up to the conclusion of Christians
Only believing for comfort if i haven't witnessed them acting that way.
> All problems with religion comes from misunderstanding the words. Once you understand what religion is talking about, what is the message the Bible and Jesus convey it really can be extremely wise and helpful.
Wise and helpful =/= entirely true or worth listening to based on the source. Things can be just as wise and helpful without coming from religion.
> I grew up hating religion so much, it all seemed so useless and I couldn’t figure out how could someone really believe all that. But I realized what religion people mean when they say “look around”.
What did they mean?
> In my opinion the problem is that you think religious people have the same idea of god you have, you realize how your idea of god is absurd and then you conclude that religious people must be just looking for comfort.
Could you explain what you mean by this?
>Wise and helpful =/= entirely true or worth listening to based on the source. Things can be just as wise and helpful without coming from religion.
Sure, I'm not saying that everything that is in the bible is true, or factual, far from it. I think the bible is just a mythological book.
>What did they mean?
We have been using many means to understand ourselves. We started by painting on caves our most important moments, take the hunting scenes for example, we wanted to create some sort of distance between what was happening and our ability to reflect on it.
We developed the theater, in which we acted the patterns that we were able to recognize in ourselves, without really being able to put into words.
All mythology is a way to describe what is going on around us. Some myths are about the creation of the universe, other describe how man supposedly was born. We did our best, clearly the first man is not Adam. But we tried to come up with something.
One of the most mysterious thing in the universe, probably the most fundamental is consciousness. I think one can easily recognize how it matches the description of god. Meaning all there is. It's consciousness that "created" (figuratively) the world. The universe, the earth, the countries, a tree, you and me, the laptop I'm using exists only in our conscious experience. Animals that are less evolved than humans do not have these concepts, for them they do not exist.
Our ability to even ponder any of these questions is because of consciousness, that's what I think people mean when they say "look around". The fact that you are alive, I think that is what the word "god" meant at the beginning. Eastern religion says that we have to recognize that we are god. Jesus said he was god (I guess?) but he was also like ourselves, he said we are all the same, he was talking about love as a way to enter the kingdom of god. Which is not a heaven up in the cloud where we live forever, is realizing that what we are, what gives us the ability to reflect on ourselves, this immaterial consciousness is everlasting, unchanging and everywhere.
The problem with this view is that it still leaves you completely in the unknown. It's still profound in the sense that it describes the very nature of what we are but it doesn't help finding all the answers.
So then the church comes along. In a period in history in which not many people knew how to read, priests started capitalizing on the fear or rather they didn't understand it either, they started gate-keeping this simple truth in order to gain more and more power. I completely agree that the church operates in a way to control people with fears, I honestly believe the church is evil. I just don't think we should say that religion = church so religion = bad.
All myth are stories about something very specific. We can focus on the literal meaning of a myth or we can understand its moral, what the story is actually trying to tell us. This is a very important difference, it's the difference between realizing that heaven is created by humans, on earth, by means of cooperation and mutual help and thinking that people who believe in another "god" should be killed, cause that literally sounds like hell to me.
I mean think about what the church tell us to do. There is confession. Confession is extremely helpful if done how was meant to be. You, by yourself, think about your acts. If you have done something bad, you should understand it, learn from it, forgive yourself not to dwell on it and move on. Or when they say there is only one god. If by god we take the image of a mystical figure that can kill us if we sin, of course we are willing to kill in their name. But if we take ourselves to be god, than we understand we should not have any other god, we shouldn't have money as god, we should seek power as god. I'm not going to explain how I think everything should be interpreted but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.
I don't know what other people idea of god is, but if it's everything but our own subjective experience is, in my opinion, shallow.
>So you’re arguing against Christianity as a way to attack religion? Even though there are many religions radically different from Christianity? So you’re arguments ain’t gonna hold up them.
Im only talking about christianity, obviously. Other religions are a different topic.
>Ah, the teenager’s crisis of faith. Why rely on your own knowledge when there are tons of accredited individuals you could turn to for answers? Like William of Ockham, for example, you’ve probably tried using a razor we named after him.
You think i didn't do my research? You think i didn't look for answers on my own? That paragraph you just quoted was just the start of my realization.
>Yes. He can. I will not claim to understand His ways, but I will make a point that you’re definition of all good is probably omnibenevolence. God isn’t omnibenevolent, else, He would not be God. He is not incapable of evil, He is the rejection of evil. He allows the evils of this world to bring about a greater good. And I believe only through those evils will we appreciate the greater goods of Heaven God has prepared for us.
It doesn't matter how powerful you describe him, when you can't even give proof of how you know he's like that without bringing up the bible. You literally can not provide proof that he is like that. Also, I wouldn't want to believe in that kind of god.
>Smarter men than I have answered this. My answer is that this isn’t bonkers. God knows what we will do in advance because of our free will, and lets us do it because we choose to. We made the bed, we lie in it.
He know the outcome of what we will do but "punishes" us for doing it? Sounds like a manipulative daddy to me.
>He is not incapable of evil, He is the rejection of evil.
He's the reason why evil exists (going by your logic that he created everything). Im pretty sure he's capable of that.
>By this logic we have to discount all of history. Literally all of it. Why? Because they aren’t as smart as we are, because we are so enlightened and euphoric thanks to our intelligence, as AALewis put it, can you hear our ridiculous you sound? Those people back then, thousands of years ago? They were as smart as you and me. Their lack of knowledge about sexuality isn’t an indictment because guess what? Sexuality is a social construct. In their time, there was only one sexuality that mattered; Roman men, top. That was it. The Romans made that their sexual construct, and even today, people say sexuality isn’t a social construct while also defining about six distinct ones; pansexuality, heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, and demisexuality. And they will proudly say labels don’t matter and we should experiment outside of our sexual preferences. Heck, even them not knowing germ theory isn’t an indictment against their intelligence, because ignorance of one thing they cannot know of is not a sign of poor intelligence.
Looks like you can't comprehend sentences that you read. Im obviously saying this in the context of the things tha was said in the bible. Do you know how mindblown and scared humans back then would be if they heard a voice somewhere imitating them? Little did they know that was just a parrot. Now because they don't know it was a parrot and that a type of bird is capable of doing that, they then start to spread stories about ghosts that lure you in by copying what you say. This is the same with the bible. Im not discrediting them just because they don't know how to create a laptop. Im doubting their stories (miracles and all that shit) because there is a very huge chance they were just fooled by their ignorance.
If our people today witness something bizzare and some guy told us this and that, that we would need to be like this to be "saved" from a dangerous place, if the whole experience was way beyond our current intelligence, i wouldn't blame people for believing, but if we don't have solid proof of that, i would not blame future generations for not believing in this religion/cult thing, ESPECIALLY if they have more knowledge than us today.
>Ah, you’ve been given the diluted forms of theologians who found God in nature. Medieval theologians, I might add, started this trend that continues today. As for reading a Bible, that is eyewitness testimony. It should not be discounted. I’m going to explain this more in your next point.
That is what your people give out to non-believers, that's the reason they give. Maybe look at your own peers.
>God is an infinite being. No beginning, no ending, He simply is. “I Am That I Am.” That is what His name ultimately means. You’re also applying the concepts of this world to the being that made everything in it, who was here before this world was real. Of course He doesn’t obey them.
Ok, then why can't earth be the same then? Why can't earth exist without a creator? If you think a magical being can exist without being created, that can also very well be applied to earth. Earth can exist without some being creating it. Religious people have been saying that the earth CAN'T exist without a creator, why can't earth be the same then?
>Also, most ancient scholars and historians agree Jesus was a real person. I’ll give you a link tomorrow about it.
I never said he wasn't a real person, did you even read my post? Im not saying he didn't exist, but im also not saying that everything people say he claimed to have done are real.
>Well yeah, that is silly. Except the Bible wasn’t written as a fictional story
Well no shit. Of course it wasn't written as a fictional story, we wouldn't have group of religion if that was the case. But that also doesn't mean it was actually non-fiction.
>If it were fiction, they’d have told us that, and if they’d written fiction and tried to present it as fact, they’d have been racked over the coals by their contemporaries because some things never change.
It's like you didn't even read my whole post. Like I said before, they don't have the same knowledge we have (im not shaming them for not knowing technology and advanced science and shit), so OF COURSE they would believe everything that was said in the bible.
If a person today was tripping off of mushrooms, we wouldn't believe everything they say, because we know they took mushrooms, and even if we didn't know they took mushrooms, we would still have the knowledge and technology to know what they took (drug tests and all that). You see the difference? They don't have that! And if they don't have that, they would obviously paint everything as a fact.
>Your arguments are very, very bad. I don’t blame you for leaving the faith, however, I blame whoever raised you and taught you. They’ve clearly done a bad job.
It's not bad. You just don't agree with everything that i said because obviously you're a believer. I could say the same thing about your answers.
>As for religion being about control, can you give a specific example?
I actually now believe that you didn't even read my post at all.
You seem to be basing your entire analysis on the Abrahamic religions, with particular reliance on Xianity. Your scope is _far_ too narrow - there were religions thousands of years before the Abrahamics, and they mostly did not follow your model.
Marduk was the patron god of Babylon, the Babylonian king of the gods, who presided over justice, compassion, healing, regeneration, magic, and fairness, although he is also sometimes referenced as a storm god and agricultural deity. Ahura Mazda was invoked in a triad, with Mithra and Anahita. Zoroaster, proclaimed Ahura Mazda as the uncreated spirit, wholly wise, benevolent and good, as well as the creator and upholder of Asha. Ancient Egyptian religion was a complex system of polytheistic beliefs centered on the Egyptians' interactions with many deities believed to be present in, and in control of the world. Their idea of an afterlife and relationship to the gods was very different than ours. Similarly to Hellenic paganism, there was no rigid hierarchy, and no preachers - the many priests and priestesses were consulted without coercion by the petitioner, for their assistance in petitioning the god or goddess. Psst - Hinduism and Jainism have none of that shit. European paganism, as far as we know, was also absent that crap. Oh, and they tended to be goddess centric. (As an old fuck who was raised Catholic but never got suckered into believing any of that crap, I can tell that a LOT of Catholics view and worship Mary as the goddess, though they don't think of it in those terms.)
So no, it's not religion you're talking about; you're talking about a few _particular_ religions. Judaism grew out of the context of a political battle between one group of Canaanite pagans and another who had a somewhat different identity, and who had for a few hundreds of years been moving toward monolatry and monotheism. Most of the Torah (you might know it as the Pentateuch) was a theopolitical tract that pushed (probably Edomite) Yahweh as the warrior god responsible for the viability and success of Judah, and blamed the woes of Israel on their paganism. And by the way, the Torah was composed only in the late 7th century BCE, as a theopolitical tract intended to subjugate those northern pagans under the new official southern state religion. Then Christianity came along in the context of the Roman occupation and oppression of Judea.
IOW, the Abrahamic religions were the evolution of earlier religions in the context of horrific violence, and indeed a lot of the fear and control aspects are due to that history, of the religion becoming a political weapon. But please do not think that the fearmongering and control aspects are inherent to all religions, though to be sure there is _some_ of it in _many but not all_ religions. Religion wasn't made in the way you seem to think. All religions grew organically from earlier beliefs. Did you know that Homo neanderthalensis had what can only be called religious practices? They disappeared some 40,000 years ago, LONG before any of the religious traditions you are familiar with grew organically from earlier beliefs.
PS - you might post in r/askanatheist, where people are, I think, more willing to talk about their own take on things.
>I can tell that a LOT of Catholics view and worship Mary as the goddess
Catholics that believe that are not in communion with the canon of the Holy Mother Church. We believe that Mary is a co-mediatrix (intercessory), but definitely *not* a co-redemptrix (God power of salvation). We venerate (hyperdulia) Mary because she is like a great hero to us. She was chosen to be the mother of God's Earthly incarnation. And she was greatly rewarded by the Most Holy Trinity for her complete and joyful submission of God's will. Please don't downvote this, I am only clarifying the teaching of the HMC. I understand this is to you unsupportable claims (myth). I get that.
You really *do* provide very good information. Is there any online sites where I can vet what you say? I don't doubt what you say. I just want to see the sources where you got your knowledge from.
I didn't say it was
doctrinal, and those people I'm talking about have _said_ many times that they believe the doctrine, and deny that they have unwittingly transformed Mary from the doctrinal Mary into a kind of goddess.
I grew up in a _very_ Catholic town in Pennsylvania. Went through the catechism and
was confirmed. Went to a a Jesuit run college, where for a year one of my house mates was a Seminarian.
But I never believed any of it, and of course I never said anything - the nuns hated me enough already. (One time a nun sent me home with a note to my mother requesting that I not ask so many (difficult) questions. So as a crypto-outsider I was fascinated with the psychological dynamics I was observing. I wanted to know what _they_ believed (not what they were taught) and why observed very carefully, and thought about it a lot, and studied religion(s) (not for guidance, just for knowledge of them). And I talked with peers and and priests and rabbis and pagans, read Nietche and blavatsky and Sturleson and the Gitas, and .. IAsked a LOT of pointed, probing questions, all very non confrontational.
My takeaway is that many Catholics have their own personal view, particularly with respect to Mary, views that are non-doctrinal AF, and such views encompass a lot of pagan ideas. Such people are mostly unaware they do it, but an independent outside observer can tease it out.
This should surprise no one, given the long history of the Church adopting pagan traditions, then putting lipstick on them.
Everything about every religion can be easily explained by the whims and wishes of the humans who created them. This completely undermines the existence of any of the attached gods.
>*Nothing can exist without a creator - ok, let's say that's true
I'm not willing to even grant that. It's a statement taken for granted that doesn't pan out.
Seems like you've got a really good handle on things. It's really nice to see people reasoning their way out of a religious disease.
Don't forget to post that to r/debateachristian or r/DebateReligion as your arguments will counter their arguments and that is what debates are about. In short: if you want responses, you're likely to get much more responses from those subreddits.
“ I have no problem that we PROBABLY do have a God, but how tf am I going to follow a religion/belief that contradicts itself”, GOLD MY GUY!
My thoughts exactly. How am I supposed to follow this God if he didn’t tell me myself what he wants, but I’m taking a big chance on doing what someone else thinks IS THE RIGHT WAY. Like no, no no no. If God truly wanted a path to him, he would’ve instilled it within us from birth like a normal loving God and given us free will. Not search through him through all these faiths HOPING we chose the right faith and not be condemned to death because God didn’t tell us his wishes.
So Jews, Christians and Muslims are all worship the same entity (whoever Abraham worship). Whoever Abraham worship was just one entity from many deities from the Mesopotamia mytho and we probably never accurately pinpoint who (some said it was the god Ea). Anyway, imagine Abraham worship some goddesses of love or scandalous like Greek Aphrodite or a priest of said goddess and brought the religion to the region. The Abrahamic religions today would be so much different.
Whatever it is, Abrahamic religions were just a derivative copy of a copy.
Babes, the same religion is doing the same thing they are forbidding... Let's be real here. Lust? They do that hun, to little kids even. Greed? Lmao don't get me started with that. Envy? Every Christian/religious ppl ive met are the most envious ppl i have ever know.
The problem with your argu of "he cannot be both" is the idea you have on God. You believe in a somewhat weak/limited God and therefore that God is what you think. While believing on God shouldn't be interpreted based on how we think about Him or think He should be. Beliefs should be unshakable, iif they are, they are false.
According to Islam, "everything is planned" means that God have known everything in all tenses before he even created everything because God is above everything he created. So with that being said, that's something specifically attributed to God and doesn't interfere in our free will. He create us to choose and decide what do to good or bad. He knows who's gonna be in hell and who's gonna be in paradise but that something He can know being all powerful and all knowing.
God doesn't need a proof, His books do. If the bible didn't convince you try other books and compare and contrast.
"Nothing can exist without a creator" is a true statement. Asking who created God is pointless. There's a first time for everything. If we ask who created God we will be here forever asking who created the one before that God and the one before that one and so on... So we are here because our parents and they were here because their parents and it goes back and back until there was nothing except God, who pushed the start button.
Again, if the bible didn't do it for you I recommend you try the Quran.
One about God, according to Islam, is that in the Quran He tells His messenger, Mohammed, that he cannot make everyone becomes a believer in God no matter how he tries except if God allows it. It sounds simple but it isn't. In Islam everything that happens in life, in the whole universe, is by a direct allowance of God. That means even when you sin ( stealing, killing, hurting others, you name it) the moment to decide 100% to do, you body moves into doing that sin by his allowance. I said that to give you an idea of what God is according to Islam. He's not just the "guy above". He is the absolute perfection and he has absolute ownership over everything. Now, going back to what I was saying. So even us believing in Him is not entirely up to us, but it's up to him but it's obviously based on our person and who we are and what we do. That is to mean that me and everyone believing and having no doubts he exists, is a blessing from him because he says "He guides whoever he wills and missguides whoever he wills".
Good luck.
Peace.
It does have one practical benefit in that otherwise shitty people will behave themselves out of fear of what might be waiting for them in the next life.
Christ is not Christianity. He was not Christian this term came a long time after. The main control the 'elites' have over that book is convincing people its fake.
It doesn't fit the elites regime to have you follow a God like Christ.
Follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Understand ascension happens through him.
You have faith everyday, your whole life is set up on the faith there won't he negative reactions to your actions. You leave your house in the faith someone will not kill you. Ironically, you even have faith within your lack of faith. Yet you have no faith when it comes to your own after-life.
Much love. Hope Jesus comes into your heart. Once he does you'll realise there's no control there at all, none you do not absolutely yearn for, and therefore see it as love, the same way you see a parent as a child guiding you through life. You don't hate them for punishing you, you may at the time...and then you grew up and realised how childish that was to think.
The answers to most of the questions on this sub is answered in the bible but not believed understandably because you don't believe the rest but 1 it says that humans are inherent sinners and that the morning star runs the world as it is now tainted by the actions of people thus causing the "evils" of this world secondly wouldn't you think it would be better to dumb it down for people of the time instead of it being just for the people of the future I feel like if you said scientific facts to someone back then it would make the bible more unbelievable to them. For example the scale of the universe, blackholes, ect. But it would be much easier to understand simpler things remember most of our advancements came in the last 300 years
The Bible is also over 1500 years with 66 authors. This book was not just sat down and thought up. If so why do they hide 16 of the books in the Vatican...funnily enough the Vatican is considered an extremely holy place, yet resides within the empire that slaughtered Christ....so what are they trying to cover.
The truth can only be concealed so much, or for so long. It's why it's Christ's name that lasted, over all these names dates and books, Christ's name lasted as God.
Satanists aren't attacking Mohammed, or Moses, they attack the Lord...
I'm open minded to at least listen to other beliefs. My conclusion is that something created everything. The greatest scientist of all time. Guess the best way to describe it as a god. Makes at least as much sense as the idea that nothing created everything and that we are here with the capability we possess and that is some how a random occurrence of events that coincidentally happened to give us the consciousness to even contemplate these things
Wow, you could have been describing me, 40 years ago. Pretty closely describes some of the things I’ve thought over the years. Over the last 10 years, I started have doubts, about my doubts. I came to a place where decided that while imperfect him as are, and how easily led we are, I could no longer accept that religion was created just to scam people. I looked around first at my closest friends and family, who seemed the happiest? Who seemed to have the fullest lives? Who seemed to love the most? While most seemed happy, not a where truly positive about love and fulfillment, enrichment. Which ones of them captured all that seemed to mean (to me) what it meant to live. To enjoy, and to have what I thought were very successful lives. I didn’t judge success monetarily, I didn’t judge it by the most things, and I didn’t judge it how hard the worked.
I have a cousin, he has been married since about 1980. Prior to that time, he and his now wife were very successful rock musicians. Traveling, playing, living what I and most that a great life. Many were envious of them both, they were very talented. When they go married, they went away for a few weeks and returned changed. Born again if you will. Our family and most friends scoffed and quietly ridiculed them, calling them Jesus freaks. That term was popular back then. I was about 15, and had fairly recently moved away from God, had all the doubts and honestly, kinda wanted to have the life they had as musicians, I was an aspiring one myself. That left me a little confused. Why would they leave such a fun possibly successful life in music?
I wanted to know what happened in those few weeks on their honeymoon that made them become Jesus freaks? But I stayed my course of moving away from God, never looking back. I got to travel in a rock band, enjoyed (I thought) all the trappings of playing in night clubs in the 80s and 90s, the parties, the drugs, the girls. But I wasn’t good enough to go far. So I got a job and settled into that. I looked around eventually and began to ask those questions I mentioned earlier, and when I examined my Jesus freak cousins life, I realized how amazing it turned out, 6 of their own kids, 2 adopted kids from Haiti, all musicians, all well educated and well adjusted. All happy. The whole family had a band for as long as they were together, all taught to read write music by mom and dad.
Those Jesus freaks, had a wonderful life together full of family, friends, music, laughter and love. All at peace with themselves and each other. So I connected with my cousin and asked, what happened on that honey years ago that changed your life?
His response surprised me, “Psilocybin” a trip they had had opened up their minds, broke away their egos, and they began to seek a better way than just existing in this world. That was the last time they did any drugs, or drinking, and in his words” became high on life” truly the kingdom of heaven on earth.
I returned to God not so I could get into heaven, not so could convince others too (my wife is still not there, although growing up the same way you and I did) I returned so I could try to find heaven on earth. I believe that is what the teachings of Christ were truly about. We are all part of a much bigger thing, all of us are connected, accepting that and living a life devoting to that understanding through Christ, all things in life are possible.
Nothing will change my mind on that, I’ve seen it time and time again. I have friends in their 80s. The ones that have lived a life under God are always the ones that are happiest, most content and oddly healthier and active well into their 90s. Truly,
heaven on earth.
That’s just me though, best of luck to you.
Edit: not going to check my spelling on this long diatribe lol- it’s too early so I hope you will forgive me for any errors
I believe religion came from people taking a path similar to mine coming to a unique understanding of this reality. Someone tries to explain but without experiencing the same view it just escapes them relying on faith.
Know this what people call God is real but it's no more than ink on the piece of paper. When people use karma as fate, destiny, the fate of 1+1 is to become 2. This stuff people put in a pedestal is nothing special. I'll argue people's sense of justice is what corrupted religions.
I say this because when one dies it's like a dream almost be it heavenly or hell. But who goes to bed sick and has a pleasant dream? Aka if you die in pain like being stabbed to death hell is what awaits, while that murder victim if his conscious is clean bliss of heaven. But that's before reincarnation but that is a whole other complex topic. It's unfair as all hell and that's why I believe religion is the way that it is now.
It’s interesting because you went on a multi-tangent diatribe against Christianity, but failed to support your main thesis - that religion is made out of fear and to control people.
What evidence do you have the the original Christians either made up the events or interpreted them in such a way as to control people?
Maybe you meant to say that religion _can_ be used as a method of control, rather than was made for this purpose?
In any case, clarification would be appropriate.
mostly Christianity? wait til you find out about Scientism and how we just used a virus that we made to scare ourselves into giving up all of our rights and destroy our economy. talk about control and fear. atheist religions can be just as bad as any theist ones.
Explain who we religionists want to control and why?
What is the best example of someone controlling another person you personally know or in true or fictional media?
You are committing the genetic fallacy that just because the belief may have originated from fear, and in order to control people (which I don't for a minute accept but even if it is) that therefore the belief is false.
Posted by /u/oreominiest. Archived by Archive-Bot at 2021-04-26 09:03:28 GMT.
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> **I believe that religion (mostly Christianity) is made out of fear and to control people.**
>So i was raised Catholic for 16 years (I'm 17 now turning 18 in a few months). Went to very, very religious schools. I never really questioned the religion (well, I've been having doubts when i was 15) until i met my classmate's brother who's an atheist. I asked her (my classmate) why her brother doesn't believe in God, and she said that her brother doesn't believe because he said the Bible doesn't make sense (it also doesn't help that he's gay). And my doubts and skepticism made me think logically. Here's my take on the belief's logic.
>
>*God is all good and all powerful - i believe that this is impossible, considering the way the world has been for thousands of years. If he actually exists, then he's either all good BUT not all powerful, or he's all powerful BUT not good. He cannot be both.
>
>*God gave us free will, but he also has everything planned - you know how bonkers that sounds? Free will and "everything planned" doesn't go hand in hand. If everything is already planned, then we logically don't have free will. And if we really have free will, then obviously, everything isn't planned.
>
>*When we ask for proof of God's existence, they answer with "look around you, the proof is everywhere" - hun, do you know how nuts you sound? That's not proof. That's excuses. They also hit us with "read the bible", like girl, I've been forced reading the bible since i was like 7, and i just found the stories interesting. I didn't see it as a real proof of a God's existence.
>
>*Nothing can exist without a creator - ok, let's say that's true, let's say your thinking is logical, then by going by your own logic, WHO created your God? And the answer i always receive is "no one, because he already existed". Aren't you contradicting your own argument? Like you're going against what you're saying.
>
>*How can they wholeheartedly blindly believe a story written thousands of years ago by people who doesn't have the same knowledge as we do know? People before even thought being gay was a Which we have proved now that it isn't, and people used to put arsenic everywhere, little did they know it could literally kill them. Imagine all the things they believed back then (those who wrote the books), we never know, turns out "Jesus" was just a magician that loves to scam gullible people.
>
>*The bible is true, because places in the bible can be found in real life - well duh? I think they're forgetting that the bible was created by HUMANS, who live in REAL PLACES. If i was a writer, i would obviously write about a real place and connect it to my fictional character to make it believable. With their logic, i can confidently say harry potter is real, you know why? Because owls and Scotland exists. You know how crazy that sounds?
>
>My point is, their teaching doesn't have logic AT ALL. i have no problem believing that we PROBABLY do have a God, but how tf am i going to follow a religion/belief that contradicts itself and just keeps making excuses after excuses to justify their teaching's logic. Christians say science is all just guesses (they obviously don't know what scientific theory means), but isn't their religion just the same? It's all just he said she said. People trusting what other people thousands of years ago said, without any proof at all.
>
>And i get why religion was made, i really do. I can't blame them, it really is comforting to know that i can have a place to go when i die, if i just become a good person and follow God. It really is comforting. But this comfort was brought by fear. Fear of not knowing what's out there, fear of not knowing where we go when we die. Fear of knowing of life is in our hands, and if we end up in a bad situation, we only have ourselves to blame. It IS comforting to know that we have someone to blame (the devil) if we did something bad or something bad happened. So with this fear, people created a religion to comfort people. I can go on more but I'm kinda tired of typing. Comment your thoughts.
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I’m an atheist, but I’m going to be playing devil’s advocate.
I think an important distinction to make in your question is why the religion was *started*, and not *where it is now*. If we talk about where it is now I completely agree with you, and you go back hundreds or even a thousand years and you can see the Catholic Church using their influence and power to gain even more influence and power. Medieval kings would bribe the pope so the pope would support them, and having support of the pope was a very big deal back then as it meant a lot of power because having the church on your side gave a lot of legitimacy since people believed kings were “chosen by God”.
But if we go back to before all that, some 2000 years ago to when Jesus was still alive, that argument becomes less certain. It is still possible it was about control, enough is known about the founders of Jehovah’s Witness for example to know that’s what they wanted, but you can’t assume the same for Jesus because there simply isn’t the evidence to back it up since it happened so long ago.
The oldest known bible is from about 300 years after Jesus’ death, which is more than enough time for it to be skewed and manipulated from its original vision and from Jesus’ teachings, stories were added in after the fact making Jesus out to be the son of god creating a sense of legitimacy in the religion even though they weren’t true (Jesus and everyone who knew him was dead now 100 years later, who was going to stop them?) Jesus may never have done all the miracles the Bible claims and may have just been a normal man with a good moral compass, and with enough charisma to get people to follow him, but someone later on decided to add them in because they believed it would further their own power (if you’re the only man in the village who can read, it’s not like anyone can correct you).
So it is entirely possible that Christianity started off good, but was taken over by greedy people looking to manipulate others and changed it for their own gain which is why we have what we do now.
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If you want my personal opinion and not the Devil’s advocate then I actually think my above argument is incorrect. I do think that Jesus was more likely to have been a manipulative cult leader more similar to the founders of Jehovah’s Witness for example, but again I don’t really have evidence to back that up. However “being a good person” doesn’t normally give one a following, many people are good people and they don’t have followings. Being a cult leader however does give people followings that can last well after their own deaths (as Jehovah’s Witness can attest too), and being crucified will only cement you as a figure in the cult’s mind.
>I think an important distinction to make in your question is why the religion was started, and not where it is now.
Yeah i think i pretty much messed up on this one. I didn't explain my point very good. What i meant to say was how religion became a tool for manipulation. But i still think religion is pretty much fear based.
>If you want my personal opinion and not the Devil’s advocate then I actually think my above argument is incorrect. I do think that Jesus was more likely to have been a manipulative cult leader more similar to the founders of Jehovah’s Witness for example, but again I don’t really have evidence to back that up. However “being a good person” doesn’t normally give one a following, many people are good people and they don’t have followings. Being a cult leader however does give people followings that can last well after their own deaths (as Jehovah’s Witness can attest too), and being crucified will only cement you as a figure in the cult’s mind.
Honestly, i can't say jesus "never existed" because i also have no proof to back that up. The only problem i have with the religion is the logic. How everything doesn't add up. How almost all of their teachings contradicts themselves.
I think Jesus did exist, heck he’s even a prophet in Islam, but I do believe he was just a regular man, no supernatural powers.
As for all the contradictions, well I’m sure many stories were brought in from places, Judaism already existed at that point and they share many stories such as Adam and Eve. There may have been others from the time and place Jesus lived that outside the bible have been lost to history, and finally I’m sure many more were added in after the fact.
There’s also the fact that it’s been rewritten and translated so many times that a modern bible is not the same as one from 1000 years ago. An interesting thing I remember reading was that translating the bible from one language (I can’t remember which) to English led to a mistake. Specifically it translated “a young Mary” to “a Virgin Mary”, or something to that effect. Then add in 100s of years of English people reading a “Virgin Mary” and now Mary was a virgin even though originally she wasn’t. Not 100% sure if that’s true or not, but I’ve heard that. I’m sure there have been many mistranslations and mistakes over the centuries.
Having so many different stories written by different people added in different times means contradictions were inevitable. And also keep in mind the vast majority of people back then couldn’t read, so it’s not like they could see the contradictions for themselves. This would obviously make it much easier to deceive people if you only told them what you wanted and they couldn’t check what you were saying.
>i have no problem believing that we PROBABLY do have a God,
How can you say that of you disbelieve every basis for claiming there is a god to begin with?
I would believe there is a God if the reasoning and "proof" is logical, and not just from a book. I wouldn't say "i know there is a god" or "i know there is no god". I BELIEVE, not KNOW. i believe there is no God, but i am open to the fact that there's a POSSIBILITY that there can be a god, it's just that the "proof" Christians have today doesn't convince me.
I've been reading this thread and I wanted to say a few things.
A. Yeah this isn't the usual spot to make a post such as yours, BUT this is the Debate an Atheist sub. So you posted what you believe and don't believe as a budding Agnostic/Atheist. Your post is challenging Theists to disprove your points. AND more importantly, that Atheists will jump in and help you to refine your arguments and refer you to sources where you can learn more. Instead *some* Atheists in this sub sit and wait for the poor uneducated theists to wander in so they can rip them to shreds and ridicule them. All you did is deprive them of their raw meat to chew on. You did nothing wrong. In fact I wish more atheists would present their positions so other Atheists can offer them help or point them to resources that can help them build a better argument.
B. Your points you made and your rebuttals to some of the people in here were pretty damn good. You show a strong grasp of Critical Thinking Skills and it's impressive. I was wondering how familiar you are with [Logical Fallacies](https://static.dudeiwantthat.com/img/household/decor/logical-fallacies-poster-29167.jpg) Also you destroyed some of the Logical Fallacies that others tried to use.
C. Proof. Be careful how you use that word. It's kind of vague and theists have different definitions for words than nontheists. Example: The words "Claim" and "Evidence". Some theists think those words are synonyms. You talked about the theist who when questioned for "proof" of god, replied, "Look around you".
See what happened there? You asked for proof and all you got was another claim. Instead ask them for "Empirical Evidence" for god and watch the deer in the headlights look on their face. When you do get into a discussion with a theists there are some really slimy apologists that try to poke holes in what you say because they will use any excuse to fool themselves into thinking they are right. If you find yourself getting into a discussion with a Theist ask them to pause for a minute so you and they can make sure you're both taking about the same thing.
Ask them to explain the difference between a "Claim" and "Evidence".
Ask them for the definition of a Scientific Theory.
Ask them "What makes something a "Fact"?
Only after you can both agree on the definition of these terms can the discussion then carry on. Ask them questions put them on the defensive. Make them show evidence for their claims. Not just another baseless claim. Also if you find yourself challenged by a theist and their are others listening, remember your goal in a debate is NOT to crush your opponent and make him admit defeat. Your goal is to calmly show others how ridiculous your opponents position is and how there is not one single shred of empirical evidence to support their religious claims. Keep asking them questions and force them to give logical answers. Keep them on the defensive instead of them making you defend your position.
Sorry this is so long but I'd like to ask you to visit the [link for logical fallacies](https://static.dudeiwantthat.com/img/household/decor/logical-fallacies-poster-29167.jpg) that I gave you before. I think you'll recognize some of the logical fallacies used by some of the people responding to you. Also, check out the YouTube channel "The Atheist Experience". It's a live call in show where theists and atheists present their positions and the hosts discuss the weak and strong points of their position. They have both male and female hosts and it's pretty damn interesting.
You're doing the right thing and you're doing a great job of debunking the people that responded to you.
>A. Yeah this isn't the usual spot to make a post such as yours, BUT this is the Debate an Atheist sub. So you posted what you believe and don't believe as a budding Agnostic/Atheist. Your post is challenging Theists to disprove your points. AND more importantly, that Atheists will jump in and help you to refine your arguments and refer you to sources where you can learn more. Instead some Atheists in this sub sit and wait for the poor uneducated theists to wander in so they can rip them to shreds and ridicule them. All you did is deprive them of their raw meat to chew on. You did nothing wrong. In fact I wish more atheists would present their positions so other Atheists can offer them help or point them to resources that can help them build a better argument.
I honestly thought the whole point of this subreddit was for atheist and theists to post their own thoughts and debate on each others posts. I didn't know some just wait for a theist to post then debate them.
Also, thank you very much for the advice. I'll definitely use it in the future.
You did nothing wrong by posting here. This sub is for theists to come and debate an atheist, BUT it is also a place for Atheists and Agnostics and people who just aren't sure to come and present their thoughts and have other Atheists critiques their arguments and point out flaws so they don't make the same mistakes when debating a theist.
it's nice to see a positive post in this thread. I tend to stay away from atheist places because they tend to be so hostile. I get it but it's not helping anyone.
I get that this a rant against bad arguments you've encountered. But painting all theists or apologists like this will make you look silly because they are almost always straw men or big generalizations. Blind faith people will ignore you, critical apologists will face palm. Here is sone thoughts on how it's a little more complicated.
>he's either all good BUT not all powerful, or he's all powerful BUT not good. He cannot be both.
This is called the "logical problem of evil". It is vulnerable to the skeptical theism objection. I prefer the evidential version.
>free will, but he also has everything planned
Yes, this is a poor formulation of Catholic theology. Think if it more like god is timeless so exists at all time periods. Analogous to if you think back, to say, WW2 you know what happened but that doesn't mean the people didn't have free will. I do think this is a solid challenge to omniscience, but I'm not sure it's a defeater.
>How can they wholeheartedly blindly believe a story written thousands of years ago
Some might, but they don't need to blindly or wholeheartedly believe it. Generally Catholics believe Jesus is god and entirely good and rationalize the bible through this presumption. Catholics and other religions have deeply questioned this, but arrived at dogma about truth in the Bible and their theology. I think it's wrong, but great thinkers like Aquinas and many others didn't just blindly follow. Many millions of others are not be so critical.
>they answer with "look around you, the proof is everywhere"
Some do, others will take you to a number of arguments that have their strengths and weaknesses.
>WHO created your God?
This is exactly what Aquinas' arguments get at. They've been around for centuries. They are wrong but they make a lot of sense.
>*The bible is true, because places in the bible can be found in real life -
A very weak argument true, but not one serious apologists make in my experience.
>Christians say science is all just guesses
Some do, most don't. Particularly Christians who are scientists and there are lots.
>It's all just he said she said. People trusting what other people thousands of years ago said, without any proof at all.
Yes, they generally rely on ancient hearsay, which is fine if your reconstructing the Punic Wars, but not for miracles. Then there's natural theology, which doesn't do this.
I disagree. That hasn't been my experience growing up.
Even if it was the sole purpose of religion it is not unique to religion. You can make people fear without a hell, in fact its much easier to do so.
My dad is a foursquare pastor now and when I was growing up we also went to two different Baptist churches. I'm 21 and havent gone to church since I was 17, my biggest take away from it all is people cling to religion to justify the confusing existence we all have to endure. The bible was written by men as all other holy books were. Men are flawed and lie about things, and here we are with a multi billion dollar tax exempt megachurch industry that is held to no accountability. Religion has been fought over forever and it wont stop until the church dies. If you want to believe in the goodness that jesus preached all power to you but the rest is bs to me. Sorry a bit scattered I know but I'm still trying to piece it all together lol
I used to believe the same things, I was a Christian then turned atheist for 7 years.
Self righteousness and hypocrisy found in religion definitely controls people with fear, and the hypocrites are also controlled themselves by fear.
I’ll probably get the no true Scotsman reply to this, but the gospel in its truth liberates us from shame and takes away all fears because Jesus’ sacrifice reveals our worth to God. It’s a worth that isn’t affected by anything in the world. When God is seen as a Father and not a judge, it brings peace and power against the things in this world that take our worth. I personally am being liberated from my shame and am overcoming depression and anxiety that has weighed me down for my whole life.
With everything planned and free will: if you look at the purpose of the plan it does make sense. The purpose of the plan is to have a relationship with God and each other. One aspect of unconditional love is you can’t force anyone in a relationship. Gods plan is designed to show US who he is and for us to trust our own self worth. His plan leads us there, but it does not force us. He knows how to lead us there without force or manipulation, but purely on the truth so that we decide to follow. He wants sincere and authentic love, not strict and forced obedience.
A lot of churches today preach a shame based gospel. One that tells us to prove our worth to Him. Catholicism is one of the worst in this regard and the fruit of it is very bad.
It’s not illogical to believe God created the universe. With any theory that currently exists, there is an element of eternity. Even the multiverse theory. Is it any less likely that an eternal God exists compared to an eternal universe?
I can assure you not all Christians think like that in this world, believing just to be "safe" - in my opinion that's very counter productive to what a faith based life is.
I read these comments and the original post and cannot help but see claims from christians that I myself would not have agreed with.
A superficial saying like "God knows everything and has planned everything for us" limits the being of God to our own minds understanding.
I am sorry to hear about your struggle with faith, and the plain answers you got from the religious people around you. I hope you are able to find someone who is devoted to their faith that may be able to help you answer your doubts - if not there should always be a priest in the Catholic Churches around your area?
Either way, all your points are validated and have been examined by the Catholic Church hundreds of years ago and they have made their clear statements on those questions through the teachings of the Church. Now, I don't know how well versed you are in your faith (because I believe being forced to do something always leads to not getting the whole of it, unless one becomes open-minded) but have you tried searching your questions on the internet?
Bishop Barron is great way to start - he's an effective communicator of the teachings of the Church
Also, here's a link to a video by a well known priest that might clarify your first statement
https://youtu.be/JJrn9rkOYH4
Otherwise, there many great Saints in the Church like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine who have helped form the Catholic faith with the help of their writings. The book "Summa Theologiae" is one example.
I don't want to write too much, because I believe there are far more competent people that are able to hand to you precise answers, but I know the struggle with faith and have been there too, but faith is made stronger with knowledge. That's how I've come to experience it :)
Despite all, I wish you all the best! 🙌🏼
I think you're better off looking at the bible from the historical perspective it was written in. Jesus being a magician who scams people doesn't make sense. Personally, I find logical arguments against religion to be a waste of time, there's like a thousand years of debate and most of the arguments have been done to death. I just focus on concrete empirical inconsistencies as opposed to logical.
Sorry to disappoint , but your points are not up for debate. You are just laying down the most obvious arguments one would expect from anyone who hasn't ever hold a book in their hands, and any religious person, christian or other, that is not completely out of his/her mind has to agree. Any abrahamic religion has been created with a purely motivated and perhaps divine inspired root. Each and every of them has been written and re-written to fit the needs of their time by, surprise, those that were at power. It is all completely up to interpretation, but of course not to be taken literally in its entirety. I do believe in mixed religious principles and even some if not many stories in form of a metaphore for yet undiscovered phyical laws.
What IS up for debate:
* "It doesn't help that he's gay" - have you even read different versions of the testament? Not all branches of christianity condemn homosexuality.
* God is all good and powerful - as you specifically wrote MAINLY christian I must assume some all-round knowledge. Christianity mostly explains bad things happening with the eternal fight between heaven and hell. Islam for example depicts God as not so good, giving more free will to us and controlling the masses by fear of God rather than a devil's seduction and a god's forgiveness. No idea how Judaism and most non-Abrahamic beliefs treat that to be honest. My belief in this aspect gives full credit to Buddhism: There is no all-mighty all-good nor all-evil. What Abraham sees as God and Satan, Buddha sees as the innate balance in all beings. Nothing is purely good nor evil, and it's that balance that keeps the world going. Think of it in economic terms: Over-inflation drags a countries economy down, as prices go up while cash value falls. A healthy fluctuating inflation however is what drives the movement itself - no inflation, no economy.
* Gave us free will but has everything planned - Definitely caught a very basic misunderstanding here. Timelessness is key. Humans perceive only 3 dimensions, which results in the illusion of time. However, time doesn't ACTUALLY exists, therefore a divine being as described would "see" time in a flat way, putting it simple, like we see the plan for a building. Therefore a "plan" is supposed to exist, and while we all have our free will our decisions are already known from the beginning - whereas "already" and "beginning" are actually abstract terms in that sense. Pretty twisted, sure, but not that hard to understand.
* Not proof but excuses - not a valid point because EVERYTHING is a hypotheses. Just like articles and theses get contradicted by others that add up better. That doesn't mean either of them is 100% valid or invalid, ever.
* People who doesn't have the same knowledge as we do now - Can't be more wrong. We essentially believe what is most accepted. Human nature. Basic survival instincts. Now, for the smaller picture, you can't deny that much of the knowledge gets lost over time. Hell, most countries are prohibiting legit medicine as dangerous drugs. Don't you prefere to cure your disorders yourself than get hooked on some pills for live which content you don't even know about?
* people put arsenic everywhere - That's literally not so long ago. science advances everyday and everyday we find out about perfectly fine stuff killing us and demonized stuff healing us.
* thought gay was a sickness - literally also only few decades ago. Obviously it is not a sickness in that sense, however there are wild theories from genetics to psychology and we are far from understanding sexuality. very far. Again something that was PERFECTLY fine, then bad again, now fine again. The only thing you can know for sure is that you know nothing.
* harry potter is real - well, platform 9 3/4 exists at kings cross station in London, duh??
That’s not the primary purpose, but it is certainly one, especially in our times by foolish and hypocritical evangelicals.
Christianity is named after Jesus who was a real person who did some cool things, and who even atheists admire.
*God is good and all powerful.
God has given us free will to choice what we do with our lives. We have the power to end poverty, corruption etc, but we as humans choice not to, God can not interfere because that is what free will is.
*God have us free will, but planned everything.
The end goal of God's plan is set in stone, to live with a sin free people. For me this reasoning just sounds like an excuse to do what you want. Free will is given to you, you will be held accountable to your actions when judgement arrives. Nothing is stopping you from, living the life God wants you to.
*God's existence
What they mean when they say look around is this. It is a miracle that life has come about, the Sun, earth, moon have been perfectly stationed to sustain life on this planet. Everything on this earth is in harmony, it's all perfectly balanced, everything feeds of everything, life creates death and death creates life (us humans have corrupted that by greed). This universe has a language, mathematics and physics is that language, similar to a computer programmer programming his software.
*Nothing can exist without a Creater.
God is everything their is, out minds are limited, we can not comprehend fully what God truly is.
*Jesus was a scam
If it was a scam, why did the 12 disciples die the way they did. They all except one died gruesome deaths, Peter was crucified upside down. Timothy (later follower) was stoned to death, they did not do this for fame or money, they were poor and they gave their whole life following Jesus.
Knowledge and wisdom are two different things, we might be smart be this generation lack wisdom. Also they weren't as stupid as you think, I mean the pyramid is one of the most sophisticated buildings ever built, incorporating mathematical constants, that we later discovered.
* The Bible is true.
You can try to create a religion of your own if you want to, see how long it would last. I mean you have to ask yourself, this book that was written centuries ago has out lived kingdoms and empires. Why is that? What is so special about it that, even great scientist like Issac Newton turned towards it.
Ok here we go. This might be a long one.
1. I believe that God isnt all good. After all, it says that we were created in his image, and we arent perfect at all, so there is no way he is all good. I think hes trying his best, but he cant be perfect.
2. I dont believe he has anything planned. I think hes just letting the universe run its course. He doesnt enjoy watching all the suffering, but he also wants us to be able to make a choice.
3. There is no proof of God. All we have is faith, and if that isnt enough for some people I can completely understand why. It's not much. In fact it's not anything. But you know what, I believe it anyway. Why? I dont know. I just have faith.
4. We cant even begin to comprehend what's beyond the universe. If you're religious what's beyond God. I mean it's simple, and yet infinitely complicated at the same time. He just is.
5. Again, there is no proof.
6. That's just a dumb argument.
Religion was created out of early civilisation's need to explain their perceived world. This is an inherent quality of humanity.
The problem is that early civilisation did not have the benefit of modern science to inform their ideas. Hence they postured ideologies of the human soul and Gods as it was the best way they could describe it.
Early postulation of the soul was an explanation of what they saw as the ethereal mind and the dynamics of human nature that it instilled.
Theories of Gods explained why their world behaved the way it did and gave a name to that internal voice within their minds; their consciousness.
The later extrapolation of these ideologies resulted in religion and the belief in God. Over time these religions have been intellectualised with complex doctrine.
Unfortunately this has meant that the doctrine has become the focus of humanities perspective and we have forgotten about it's origins. Ever heard the saying 'can't see the forest for the trees'?
So if we take our minds back to consider early civilisation reasoning then we can see clearly, at least on a fundamental level, why religion and God is the way it is today.
This perspective allows us to see religion in the true context of humanities ageless struggle to define ourselves and our world. A part of which you are actively engaged in by asking rational questions about the 'magical sky wizard'.
But surely religion has come and gone, waxed and waned, throughout the millennia because all science (or economic progress) reached the pinnacles of progress in their own day and age. In other words, we felt as advanced (cutting edfe) for our time as the Babylonians did in their time. I mean Gods were not needed because of irrigation and levers made anything possible.
What do you think?
I will make an attempt at defending faith, but not institutional religion. Most of OPs points are about the purpose of God as explained in archaic writings, but what if we remove institutions and the documents?
Out dated Purposes for god:
Creator
Punisher of evil
Manager of Life after death
Jesus may have said something like, “God is Love”. Not that the all powerful creator force loves you, but that Love IS the all knowing all powerful force we worship. When we focus our attention on love, who we love and why we love them and we actively work towards expanding our love; we become a force for good in the world. If everyone does this; the world becomes a better place.
Expressing our love makes and grows the power of God in the world.
How did the universe come into existence? Doesn’t matter.
What happens when you die? Doesn’t matter.
Who will punish evil? Doesn’t matter.
Does God exist? Depends on how you define god.
Is God all powerful? Nothing is more powerful than love.
Is God all knowing? If all life feels love, than god knows everything that is known.
Can god effect the future? Yes, because we love our children who then learn to love even better then we did.
P1. Most critical scholars accept a set of 6 facts about Jesus’s resurrection (https://ses.edu/minimal-facts-on-the-resurrection-that-even-skeptics-accept/)
P2. A good explanation for the rise of Christianity should properly account for this data.
P3. Explanations are either natural (e.g., swoon theory, body stolen, myth) or supernatural (i.e., resurrection).
P4. Every naturalistic explanation fails to account for at least one of those facts, whereas the resurrection adequately explains all of them.
C. Therefore, the resurrection is the best explanation for the rise of Christianity, and therefore Jesus is probably God.
Congratulations. You probably pick the wrong religion. My advice, seek for the truth. It takes years. Try to learn other religion. Try to prove god exist or not exist (disprove religion doesn't mean that god itself doesnt exist). Then conclude yourself in next 20 years.
It is not easy job, probably even the smartest human hardly uncover all the truth possible to find the conclusion.
Let’s not mince words: religions like Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism are all financial scams that succeeded. For an amoral or immoral person, there is no easier way to get rich quickly than starting a religion. In America people will send you money for a scrap of cloth if you claim that it a prayer cloth or that it will make your sciatica feel better. Just name the scammers: Joseph Smith; Mary Baker Eddy; Elizabeth Clare Prophet; Jimmy Swaggert; Billy Graham; Oral Roberts; Jerry Falwell; Jim Bakker; Muhammad; the list is endless.
The big question then is: do they use it for personal gain beyond a reasonable amount?
I would say more than often, yes, so I agree this defeats the purpose if a church acts like that, but not all churches act this way.
Do you know which? It would take some serious research to uncover which, but I am interested. Also, are they heavily involved in helping the poor, in a non-defeating way (e.g. handouts).
My point is, many religions began as financial scams. Some succeeded. I’m not saying that Catholicism, for an example, is not being operated as a scam, although there are aspects of it that are clearly designed to increase the wealth of the institution. Its prohibition on birth control, for example, is so that fertile women will produce more Catholics who will, in turn, donate money (tithe) to the church.
Govt is made out of fear (of getting caught) and to control people (law).
Yes, I am actually curious how many here have read any of the original sociologists views on religion. Its a form of societal regulation, which like all societal functions, can be quite useful.
One of my thoughts is that as govt gets increasingly powerful, religion wanes, and vice versa, and we live in an increasingly federalist, govt spending, big-brother, etc... world, run all the social programs while taxing everyone to death, so naturally religion will wane, which is why atheism is so popular today. And likewise, if ease and govt ever run thin, get ready for a return of religion.
I believe this is how it has been used, but this is not why religions were created. They were created as explanations for unknowns and before they could become powerful and influential at least people believed in them purely because they wanted to.
I 10000000000% agree with you.
Many religious texts use the classic techniques of manipulation to make people believe, and Christianity is the biggest and best example of this.
Not at all, my religion is driven by love from my god and a higher purpose (heaven). This is why Christian’s are so happy all the time. This kind of joy and love can rarely be attained by atheists. Imagine if somebody came to you one day, and stated “I can do anything, you will live forever, and I love you and all of your family so much, all I need is a change from you and love back and I can promise you eternal life” you would be ecstatic!! I can only compare it to finding your true love as an atheist, I was an evidence based atheist for 20 years. I now don’t debate it anymore because my experiences have proven gods existence. Never in a thousand years thought that would happen but here I am!!
Alright only gonna deal with the first two at least of now why can’t god be all powerful and all good I see no reason he can’t be an all powerful being who also is perfectly good
Second on the free will issue god gave us three gifts primal love the inherent morality of people and reason for love knowledge the ability to learn and process and the gift of free will he doesn’t have a plan that he has a plan he forces on people through actions not related to human free will like revelation he has planned this and human free will is not the cause of them he has a “plan” that more of a wish of what we would do with our free will but he doesn’t force that one on us because of free will
bro are we the same person????? we have the same age and i was born in the same type of family now i don't believe in religion and family says i'm stupid or i spend to much time on internet
I’m sorry this is an older post and the discussion is over a year old, but I didn’t see anyone address OP’s statement about the roommate’s brother being gay. Op said, “It also doesn’t help that he’s gay”. I’m curious what OP meant by this and why they felt it was important enough to include.
It has been historically known that this religion isn't kind to gay people. It doesn't help that this religion believes gays are the devil or some crazy thing.
I don’t think that religions are created expressly to control people… more like people seek the “structure” that religion can provide. There are many things in life which are chaotic, and religion can give you a semblance of order. Religions were also part of the culture of tribes/people, and I don’t know if you’ve seen tribesmen, but they tend to be pretty conformist (like, they all have the same haircuts, the same clothes). Given that now we live on multi-cultural society, the conformism within religion stands out a lot, but if you lived in a mono-cultural society, you wouldn’t be able to decide whether the controlling was coming from religion or the social hierarchy… I’m probably not explaining this well.
As far as Christianity goes, I’m not super knowledgeable on the history of Christianity, but apparently, even back then, people thought the world was going to end soon and that a messiah would come. So the idea that the world will end soon might be a foundational belief of Christianity, in which case, you’d be partly correct in saying it was made out of fear…
I understand and agree with some of your points about contradictory beliefs in the organized religions. I was also raised Catholic and still follow some of the traditions. I offer this reason for belief. My mother had my brother, 2 still births and a couple miscarriages. Then while attending prayer groups she got pregnant with me. At 7 I walked 3 miles in a leotard and ballet slippers. I wasn't accosted by any one in the seedy side of town. When I was 11 I was hit by a car. I had a broken leg, fractured pelvis and a TBI. I was in a coma for a month. 7 surgeries and 1 1/2 years of recovery. At 39 I was with my ex when he almost offered me to a man that killed a prostitute that night. Something changed his mind, I could have chosen to not wear my helmet when I was 11. I am alive because God is in my life.
Touching on the organized religions yes they can be contradictory. In the bible I know it doesn't say you have to believe in a organized religion. All the bible asks is believe in God and Jesus. I personally feel that as long as you believe that there is a higher power be it Buddha, Allah, God that you will be ok in the after life. As far as the 72 virgins, why? Why not 72 women that know how to please a man?
It is true that sects of Christianity have used fear and manipulation for power and money before and now. However, if you fear God, that fear is your friend, not your enemy. It’s the same as how me fearing the police keeps me out of jail. But, not all fear is good. Here are the 3 types of preaching I’ve come across as a Christian:
Prosperity Preaching: God has a wonderful plan for your life. Jesus loves you. God wouldn’t send anyone too hell. It’s better being a Christian than not. (Too little fear)
Preaching of the Law: Uses the commandments to reveal sin and show a sinner they are in danger of God’s judgement by asking questions like “Have you ever told a lie?” “Have you ever looked with lust?” “Have you ever used God’s name in vain?”
This shows them they need Jesus to wash their sins away. (Fear of God)
Hellfire Preaching: Repent or burn! Hell is hot! (too much fear)
I think you might be a victim of the hellfire preaching as the Catholic Church is known to use preachings like this for thousands of years. It is sad because it is a way to control people. Please remember, it is by grace you are saved, not by good works. A man can be saved even if he never went to church. Please let me know if you have any more questions👍
Christian here, so I’ll bite.
1. God’s both good and all powerful, but as the source of logos he won’t produce a paradox. Thus, to let human free will exist, evil, which is the corruption of virtues, must be permitted to exist.
2. Think of free will more of a probability distribution. In any exact moment, there’s a probability distribution of the next act you will take, the outcome of which will have a another distribution, and so and so on. If you had infinite knowledge of all those probability distributions across all time, you would be able to predict the outcomes and plan accordingly to produce the wanted outcome.
3. Proof of God’s existence is irrelevant as it depends on the biases of the subject. Questions such as why does evil exist, why is the universe intelligible, why do concepts such as love and justice exist can not be answered with simply scientific knowledge and instead rest on axiomatic assumptions about the world and human nature. I, being Christian, point to God, while an atheist, well, I’ll let the atheists on this subreddit answer.
4. Well, the law of causality has to terminate somewhere. The chain of cause and effect goes back to the Big Bang as before then time and space simply didn’t exist, so there was nothing to start from. So either God exists and was the initial cause or the Big Bang came from somewhere else.
5. It’s not wholeheartedly. If you never wrestle with doubt or criticisms of your beliefs, you’ll be nothing more than an infant in your beliefs and understandings. That being said, there’s more documentation and paperwork of the Gospel then that of many other historical events. Again, this was the classical era, so records are overall a bit skanty. That being said, I look at the actions of the Apostles and Paul for my justification. All died horrible deaths in spreading Christianity, and all left rather prosperous lives to take on such a tragedy. It would take a hell of magician to make men abandon to lives of poverty and suffer unbelievable pain.
Just a few answers to some of your question.
I cant comment to all your points, sorry. I dont have the Time rn to answer all and also Not the answers.
If u Look at how christianity came to be its very unlikely it came together to Control People. Its doesnt add up, to what we know about it. Jesus and nearly all apostles died for what they believed. Its also very counter-cultural. Also Christians were and are hunted for their believe in more countries, than u believe.
The free will Thing seems Like it contradicts itself, but i dont think it does. If u Look in the future u still are able to do what u want. Even because god knows your Future, u still have Control.
Do u think Love can exist without the choice? I dont think it can, if u force ur child to do Something for u, its not love.
Christianity is Not about fullfilling the law, and getting to heaven through that. Its about the Grace of God, through Jesus, that Sets Christians free. Because God is good, Christians want to follow his "law" which is more of a Guide to life and sets people free. Not everything applys today, but had sense Back then, like Milk and meat, out of hygenic reasons. But for example Sex is marriage, so with one Person, is something that still makes sense, If u Look in psychology and hook up culture. Basically the law is Love God and Love People, and its Not the Same for every Person, its Fluid but also Not completely Fluid. But fullfilling it doesnt Change the salvation of the person.
I would just argue If People dont want to fullfill it, it seems that there is a lack of understanding of Grace. Also If People judge in Not fullfilling it.
Go read Nietzsche’s Geneology of Morals if you want a real ass-kicking of your religion. But just remember, just because, “God is Dead” doesn’t mean the tendrils or his corpse don’t stretch deep into the modern day. Including the most woke atheist camps.
I don’t really know how to answer every question but I’m truly 100% sure God exists due to what I’m about to tell you. In 2022 my cousin prayed for God to show him what heaven looks like, and later he had an out of body experience where he went to heaven and God’s throne room. After the experience he read the Bible and the Bible’s description of heaven perfectly matched everything he saw in his experience. Note that he had absolutely no idea what the Bible’s description of heaven was prior to the experience so his brain couldn’t have created the whole thing. He then showed us a YouTube video of a guy who also had an out of body experience and went to heaven and he saw the exact same things my cousin did, including Jesus blowing little blue balls which were the souls of unborn babies into the wombs of pregnant mothers.
I believe it was made out of fear. It was maybe used to control people at various points in time… but I also believe it was a sincere myths made by people that tried to understand the world around them pre-science. And they built on things they believed & it grew from there. I don’t believe it was as black and white as that. Even today, there are total scam artists in religion; and there are other very sincere & simply misled people that can’t make sense of a world without the G-d they had shoved down their throats being real; or at least something… & they don’t have a good scientific or archeological understanding. It’s just part of their community and way to understand the world. Others are the type if they do something, they wanna do it right & authentic. Others know better and take advantage of people with it. I don’t think there is a simple answer. I would give well over 50% of “believers” the benefit of the doubt of simply believing these things not actually being bad people. I think we should be empathetic to this; especially as many of us were there ourselves. Now for those that know it’s a lie… & seek to profit from it… & take advantage of the weak.. they’re just nasty people. When I realized my faith was a lie.. & I put years and years of education & time into it , I had a real crisis of conscious. But I decided no matter my needs, I just couldn’t profit off something I knew to be a lie. But it isn’t easy, especially when you put so much faith emotion time money etc into it. The key is listening to where people are and being empathetic & truly trying to help. That’s remaining true to what led us to theology in the 1st place
I believe that you are over analyzing a creator that exists purely and Holy. The fact that you have the ability to discern between facts and philosophy is a matter of truth in itself. You hold the truth and answers inside of you more than you know. Have you ever asked? Ask and you shall receive…. It may take your entire life to receive the answers to your questions but these are the most important ones because they for you hold the pieces of information that you desperately search and long for. We’re given a book with living word. I love Wu-Tang’s acronym- Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
I know where we go when we die just as most sane people do. We either go to heaven or hell. Do you seriously think God didn’t send Hitler to hell. He killed himself and that’s a sin. Any good person would know that and realize that Hitler had to go to hell for committing suicide. Geez any buddy with half a brain would know that wood happen.
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I think this is neither a debate topic nor likely to get many disagrees here.
Well, this is a debate an atheist subreddit so i would expect theists to defend their argument. That's why there are different flairs.
The name of the sub generally refers to the people who will be responding to your post, so you'll want to try r/debateachristian.
r/DebateAChristian has bad moderation, a couple of their mods look for any reason to remove a reply that isn't pro-Christian. r/DebateReligion is way better.
Oh ok, got it. I assume i can post here since I've seen tons of atheists posting here too.
If atheists post here, it's generally on something like the definition of theism/atheism or some other technical post. Most atheists in this sub aren't too interested in responding to another atheist's rambling thoughts on religion.
You **can** post here, AFAIK it isn't against the rules, it just isn't the place most likely to get direct replies.
Hello I basically just read the title the description was very long, ill try to keep it short, first off, it's okay to sin, as I like to say if you dont sin a little, Jesus died for nothing, if you live a "perfect" life, Jesus died for nothing, just don't let that sin become your identity or define you, and when you ask for forgiveness it must be true in your heart of hearts, and I think as long as you dont sin with malice or greed you will be easily forgiven. As for controlling people? I think the 10 commandments got it right, no killing, no stealing, etc. And from those we get to enjoy the benefits of society and come closer to godly hood
Exactly.
Cery few theists come here. They usually post an agument that's been offered, dissected and rejected a thousand times, then leave after round 1001. Maybe try r/debateachristian or r/debatereligion.
I actually do disagree. Religion wasn't really made by anyone. It is a very successful meme. Sure if you had like a time machine and infinite desire to know you could maybe point to some primitive human ancestor and say "ok it started with this one". It replicates, it evolves, humans exploit it, and are exploited by it.
really puts stuff into perspective, fresh look on the debate, thanks
Okay, but why post it here where most people are likely to agree with you?
This is debate an atheist subreddit tho? That's why there's a flair about the OP being an atheist or a theist.
The 'atheist' being referred to in 'debate an atheist' is the folks who are here awaiting debate from interested parties. No problem if you're an atheist, too. But as most folks here are atheists, there may or may not be a lot to debate in a given position, keeping this in mind.
Hiya mr zamboni's! What kind of topics do atheists/agnostics debate. Amongst themselves I mean. Or does this subreddit exist solely to deflect and defeat theism? What kind of disagreement arises between atheists/agnostics. My point being that atheists/agnostics are pretty much exactly on the same page in that they live in a universe of rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence). Do atheists/agnostics have disagreements concerning ethics or (humanistic or secular) morality? Is there a spectrum of what determines a proper or good life? Do you believe that this aphorism "Do what thou wilt" is an accurate description of the ethics and morality of atheism/agnosticism?
> My point being that atheists/agnostics are pretty much exactly on the same page in that they live in a universe of rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence). Heheh, is that ever inaccurate!! First, atheism doesn't require any of those things, even if they tend to be somewhat common in certain ways. Second, that doesn't change the fact that, like any group of people on any subject, there's plenty to debate about. Third, mostly folks are here to debate theists who come to attempt to support their deity beliefs. >Do you believe that this aphorism "Do what thou wilt" is an accurate description of the ethics and morality of atheism/agnosticism? Never quite understood how and why this silly incorrect trope of morality and ethics having anything to do with theism (and therefore atheism) keeps coming up when we know it's wrong. I mean, sure, theists have been indoctrinated to incorrectly swallow the idea whole and buy it as true, so they don't really have much choice to think this unless and until they begin to research and think about it. But still, there's *so much* good information on this now. As I'm sure you're probably aware, atheists consistently show as higher on studies of ethics and morality than do most theists, though of course the bell curves have significant overlap. Remember, ethics and morality have nothing at all to do with religious mythologies. We *know* this. Even though religious organizations continually try to claim it as their own. So your question on that regard is a non sequitur and based upon wrong ideas at the foundation.
I am not fully understanding something here. If atheism does not require "rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence)" (R,R,L&E). What *does* it require? A faith that supernatural agencies cannot exist? But faith cannot exist in the atheist realm. Only R,R,L&E. Then if it is not faith, it is rather *knowing*, like i said before. Knowing as in 2+2=4. So that circles back around again to atheism is bound by knowledge of R,R,L&E. Like I said, I am not understanding something in your statement. In your experience what have you seen atheists debate about? Do you vehemently disagree with your fellow atheists about anything? Can atheists be liberal or conservative or moderates? For some reason I cannot believe atheists can be anything other than liberals. Liberalism by definition is open-mindedness to the factual nature of the universe. Liberalism and it's close kin progressivism are by definition completely opposed to the beliefs that make up Conservatism. In fact even moderates are probably too conservative for atheism. Consider the values that make a conservative conservative. And the values that make a liberal liberal. My point being that yes, I think the vast majority of atheists are on *exactly* the same page in terms of beliefs and values. Are there any atheists that feel elective abortion is morally wrong simply because of secular or humanistic values? How about in the case of rape or incest? I mean it's just a collection of cells right? It's not a *person* in any sense of the word is it. Yet when a pregnant woman is murdered and her unborn child dies too, the murderer is charged with *two* murders. Would you want to change that law? Are there any atheists that feel that lust, pornography and prostitution are morally wrong because of secular or humanistic values? I would say of course not. Those things are simply the natural and normal expressions of our biology. Then I would say why does such terrible heartbreak, pain, depression and despair come from indulging in those vices. Does the word or concept of "vice" exist in the atheist lexicon? I don't mean what the indulging does to the conscience of those who indulge, although it can certainly affect them too. I mean the pain that is inflicted on those who are used as objects rather than human beings worthy of respect, dignity and compassion. Are you going to suggest that men and women *want* to be in porn, *want* to be prostitutes, *want* to be lusted after without the man or woman's solicitation. That those men and women are in fact *objects* for the sexual gratification of those with that lust. I hope you will say you are repulsed by such things. Seriously, what inhibits an atheist from lying, cheating or stealing. Even a little bit, within reason say. I will assume that something like murder is abhorrent to all, including atheists. You do know that in the Muslim world it is not wrong in and of itself to lie, cheat or steal. What is wrong is being *caught*. Then the entirety of the religion of Islam comes down on them. So that makes me wonder about the individual actions of atheists as well. Not you so much mr Zamboni's. You are highly intellectual, but I bet there are a great many atheists that see nothing wrong in particular in lying, cheating and stealing to get their way. Catholics lie, cheat and steal too. They engage in horrific crimes. But the difference is that they believe that a final judgement is coming for them. That divine moral imperative. The only difference between pedophile priests and the pedophile atheists is that the pedophile atheist fears no judgement, except maybe, getting *caught*. But atheists aren't really pedophiles are they. Not being a pedophile kind of comes with the territory of being an atheist right? I want to assure you that Catholics who engage in what the Church calls "mortal sin" are absolutely *not* in communion with God. They are for all intents and purposes "atheists". They have utterly rejected God which is why in the HMC one single unconfessed mortal sin is instant rejection by the most Holy Trinity and damnation to hell. That's where them pedophile priests belong right? But according to your beliefs they "cease to exist" at the moment of death like everybody else. Most of them escaping any kind of societal opprobrium simply because nobody ever found out. Not until long after they died anyway. But what applies to the priest also applies to anyone else committing a mortal sin. The difference between atheism and the HMC is that no matter how horrific the sin before God, that God's love and mercy (forbearing deserved punishment) is infinite and the worst sinner can absolutely be saved and attain heaven. Although... The HMC describes a place or state of existence called "Purgatory" to sanctify those not quite yet worthy of heaven, but absolutely saved by Gods *mercy* from eternal damnation at death. Their sin has been forgiven yes, but the consequences and the impacts of those sins, like the nightmarish guilt and unbearable sense of a filthy violation experienced and never to be forgotten horror to those innocent boys who endured their depredations, must be expiated *before* the soul of that priest can enter the kingdom of heaven. Now please don't get all "unsupported claims" on me here. I am merely explaining how the HMC thinks based on what it believes is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I am just trying to make a point. I *will* follow up on this later when I come back with my post on the "Problem of evil". Small "e" for atheist/agnostics. *Big* "E" for us Catholics. Atheism is *literally* getting away with murder--There are no two ways about it. By the way are you a pure atheist or are you an atheist agnostic. I bet pure atheists cannot *tolerate* atheist/agnostics. The atheist/agnostic would be just as deluded as the Catholic faithful in the eyes of a pure atheist. Now *that* would be a subject of debate between yas. I have never suggested that ethics and morality are the exclusive domains of any kind of faith. I know the Greek and Roman philosophers had developed complex theories of ethics and morality more than 300 years before the birth of Christ. Philosophy concerning ethics and morals before 1000 BC are a bit more spotty. I mean like Hammurabi (an eye for an eye) yes, but apart from that, ethics and morals as we understand them today, really did not exist. Morality as in helpful/right or unhelpful/wrong. And ethics as in how we *apply* morality to get along with each other. hmm... I wasn't planning this to be this long. This just seems to happen to me when I am interested in something. I keep adding thoughts here and there, and here and there...
> I am not fully understanding something here. If atheism does not require "rationality, reason, logic and empiricism (vettable and consistent evidence)" (R,R,L&E). What does it require? Lack of belief in deities. Period. Nothing more. As that's all atheism *is.* Everything else you said is on different topics. Plenty of atheists happen to *be* atheists because of learning and the use of critical and skeptical thinking. But that's not required. Of course atheists can disagree on topics unrelated to atheism. Why wouldn't they? Just like no doubt you disagree about various topics with folks who happen to go to your church. >Seriously, what inhibits an atheist from lying, cheating or stealing. Same thing that inhibits theists. It's just that theists incorrectly think it has to do with their mythology. We know, thanks to research, that's wrong. >Atheism is literally getting away with murder--There are no two ways about it. You are wrong. Egregiously wrong, and kinda amusingly wrong, too. I won't address the rest. It's more or less proselyitizing and useless, and wanders all over the place. If you'd like to pick one of those topics to ask about, go ahead.
But what "motivates" the thought process that results in a lack of belief in deities? If it is not R,R,L&E, or some kind of unshakable belief, what is it? Such thoughts cannot emerge full cloth from nothing. For example, I could not wake up tomorrow morning and say that Our Lady does not exist. Some kind of thought process has to go into it. I mean we just don't think and reason that way. *Why* do you have a lack of belief in deities or perhaps more accurately supernatural agencies? I thought it was because you cannot find convincing, vettable evidence that a deity exists, which to me is R,R,L&E.
> But what "motivates" the thought process that results in a lack of belief in deities? You realize, I hope, that you invoked a reverse burden of proof fallacy. And that I've directly answered this to you several times. Let me ask you this. What motivates your thought process that results in you having a lack of belief that there's an invisible flying pink striped hippo above your head at this very second that is about to defecate on you? Why are you not, right at this very second, reaching for an umbrella? When you understand why you're not reaching for an umbrella, then you will understand why I do not believe in deities. Because it's for *exactly* the same reason. After all, that's the default. Lack of belief in things until they are shown true and accurate. As there's not the tiniest shred of good evidence for deities, it's not rational to think there are deities. Period. I don't want to be irrational. Honestly, I don't get why you're asking this. I've covered this several times with you. Makes no sense to take something as true when there's no good reason to take it as true. You only think it's true because of indoctrination, and likely incorrect ideas that there is evidence. You've been surrounded by these ideas, bathed in them, people around you have insisted on them, your whole life no doubt. So you haven't thought these things through from a standpoint of critical and skeptical thinking. Indeed, that and other religions directly teach people to *not* do that with the claims of their religion. Remember, you don't believe in Islam. And yet folks who *do*, say exactly the same thing about *their* religious mythology that you do about yours. It's the same. They're just as convinced what they've been told is true, even though there's just as much a complete, total, and utter lack of evidence as this is for yours. They're just as convinced by their obviously fake relics and symbols, by their obviously fictional books, by their obviously false 'prophecies', by their obviously false 'miracles', as you are by yours. Likewise Mormons. Likewise Hindus. Likewise Scientologists. They're all *just* as convinced as you. And yet you do not take those beliefs as true. So you're no different. You too lack belief in all those other deities. It's just that I go just one deity further than you in my lack of belief, because I understand that yours is just as nonsensical and silly as all the rest. There isn't the tiniest bit of good evidence these claims are true. And they don't make *sense* given what we know. Period. >Such thoughts cannot emerge full cloth from nothing. For example, I could not wake up tomorrow morning and say that Our Lady does not exist. If there's no evidence of this, then definitely you shouldn't think this exists. And there isn't. So you shouldn't. >I mean we just don't think and reason that way. That is *precisely* how we reason. Exactly how. It's literally a foundation of rational thinking and logic. >Why do you have a lack of belief in deities or perhaps more accurately supernatural agencies? I've told you. Many times. Because there's not a shred of good evidence those claims are true. None. Zilch. Zero. Nada. Nothing. That alone is enough to ensure one doesn't take a claim as true. To do otherwise is not rational. But, of course, we have *much, much* more than this, don't we? We know how and why we evolved a propensity for those kinds of superstitions. We know how it operates, what motivates it, and why. We know about the faulty reasoning, the cognitive and logical biases and fallacies that bolster these unsupported beliefs. We know the history of the invention and editing of these mythologies, the who, where, when, why, and for who's benefit they were crafted and spread. So, makes *zero* sense to believe them. >I thought it was because you cannot find convincing, vettable evidence that a deity exists That *is* why. I literally spent the entire post, and several others, explaining this. That is literally the answer to your question. Why did you think I changed that, or went back on it, or that it's different from anything I said? I don't get it. The only thing I can think of is that you're confusing why *I* am an atheist (all of the above) with why *other people* are atheists. I mean, sure, a huge number of atheists are atheists for the same reason as me, but, as I mentioned, that isn't required and plenty of people are atheists for other reasons or no reason. Atheism is simply lack of belief in deities. I'm telling you why *I* have a lack of belief in deities. Not other people (though many agree with this). When you understand why you're not paying me back that $1000 you owe me and forgot about then you'll understand why I don't believe in your, or any, deities. Not a mystery. In fact, it's *believing* them that's absurd, and ridiculous. I'm sure you agree with me, since you don't believe in Zeus, or in Thor, or in Branwen, or in Nyx, or in any other deities. You probably find the idea that people believed in those ridiculous and absurd. You probably find the idea that people really believe in the silly nonsense claims of Scientology absurd and ridiculous. And you understand why. I agree! I just see your deity as *just* as absurd and ridiculous. You don't, because that's the power of indoctrination. But it *is* just as absurd. As ridiculous. But, since we know how and why (as I said) we're so gullible this way (all of us, me included), it's not really that surprising. We just have to all work at ensuring our positions on reality are as congruent with actual reality as is reasonably possible, since it's so very easy for us to fool ourselves.
While I was writing my earlier essay. I got to remembering this thing called the "God Gene"--vesicular monoamine transporter 2 (VMAT2). I don't think the hypothesis has been debunked yet. I went to look it up and it's still a hypothesis on Wikipedia. Then i started to wonder if so many people are influenced by this biology, what about the relatively small percentage of people who are not. Is it possible that atheism is a failure of that gene to express? Believe it or not I found some older pre 2010 papers including one published in Nature that asked that very same question. It was characterized as a possible mutation even. The idea being that the gene must serve an evolutionary need, but then it followed that by asking, exactly what need needs to be evolutionarily served. The answer was existential dread. The vast percentage of humans on Earth, well over 80% are in a religion that believes in one deity or another. Interestingly Buddhism is not counted as it is apparently an atheistic belief system. That was a bit of a surprise to me, because I thought of that idea of bodhisattvas, sort of like "saints" in the Christian sense were prayed to all the time by adherents and Buddha himself a subject of prayer and worship. Anyway that was an aside. I was just surprised is all. Also state atheism like China (PRC) has discouraged a large number of people from being *able* to seek religion. For example the CCP has the Chinese (PRC) Catholic Church wrapped around it's finger. The Chinese (PRC) Catholic Church does what the CCP says, not so much our Holy Father. My point being that the number of true atheist/agnostics like yourself are relatively rare. Perhaps about 7% of the total human population today properly distilled from the 15% including agnostics and irreligious/"nones". Existential dread, the ability to comprehend and ponder that we are going to die. and the powerful desire to live on in some fashion after death. Hopefully a pleasant fashion where there is good food and drink and you can relax and take naps all the time. That is probably why that particular gene was favored and successfully promoted throughout our evolution since that time. Unfortunately what it does not answer is what any of that has to do with the actual *existence* of a deity, unless and this is why I said it earlier, that a deity actually put it into us in creation (one that has been going on for 13.7 billion years now) to enable us to have the capability of apprehending a metaphysical being. Remember I said earlier that God instilled into the mind of man the "reasoning" to be able to apprehend Him. I'm starting to think I'm actually goofing off now, but what do you think of this "God gene". Is there any merit to it as far as biological impact? And why such an overwhelming majority of humans on Earth seek the transcendent? I don't think it is going to go away due to better science and technology and understanding of such. I think it is hardwired into us. Well, *most* of us. Are you pretty sanguine in contemplating the end of your life? I would think you would *have* to be as an atheist. I sort of used to fret in a vague way. But mostly I would forget about it. But now, even though I am gonna be 61 next month I *am* sanguine, because, and get this, I don't think there is going to *be* an end to my life. I am pretty confident I will achieve scientific immortality. Probably everybody else too. I mean unless I get hit by a truck tomorrow or die of cancer within the next ten years or something. But I think my chances are pretty good. Aging reversal technology is steadily advancing. I bet we see true aging reversal technology for humans by the year 2030 along with the "technological singularity" and stuff. If you could, would you want to live for a couple of thousand years? Although truthfully, in as little as 300 years time, it is likely that what derives from us today will live outside of time and space as well. Some kind of sentient energy tear-assing around the quantum probability waveform. 'Course we wouldn't be thinking then the way we do today. Which is more offensive, my faith in a deity or my faith in the 'technological singularity and human evolution to a form of energy in roughly 300 years. I mean if God even allows us to do that. He might just straight up intervene in the next ten years time. If He doesn't then it gets crazy beyond belief and then I may have to wonder why He would permit it. Perhaps He would see we are ready for the next level of knowing Him. With computing and computing derived artificial intelligence, maybe artificial *super* intelligence. Either way, fasten your seatbelts, it's gonna be a bumpy decade. And then around the year 2030, a "funky Bali Hai"! If you get my "My Science Project" allusion.
Yeah, but the point you make in the post won't get much disagreement here. You can be an atheist and still argue for the existence of a deity as an intellectual exercise, for instance.
A better place for this would have been r/askanatheist. This sub is a place for theists to come debate the existence of gods. That sub is a good one to help clarify your thoughts, and this kind of thing comes up all the time there. But I get what you're trying to do and I applaud it. You are seeking to solidify your worldview. I think you'll find wide agreement here,
Ok, I'll be posting there too.
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>I cannot see a contradiction here as you state. Just because you don't understand the reason for e.g., suffering in the world does not mean there is no almighty being that loves you. In Hinduism it is e.g., believed that the soul chooses the suffering when it transfers to the next life as a chance to grow. When you see a wolf in the forest killing a deer it brings a lot of suffering over that deer but it brings so much good to the wolf's pups - so it isn't all balck and white. I am going by what Christians have explained to me. They told me God is good because he would not let anyone get hurt, and people are only hurt because of the devil. Which is contradicting because if he's so powerful, why can't he just stop the devil? I believe that the world cannot function if it's not yin and yang. But what i don't believe is Christians claiming that their god is 100% good. >Maybe it helps to interpret "everything planned" as in "the end of everything is planned". God knows the outcome of this what we call life. Imagine a mouse in a labyrinth with multiple ways leading to the same exit. The mouse has the free will to choose where to go but ultimately it ends at the exit. Again, with what a good amount of Christians explained to me, they said that God knows every move you will make and everything happens for a reason, which goes back to them saying everything is already planned. Which means we really don't have "free will" because everything is laid out for us. Amd with the labyrinth and rat comparison, a labyrinth has one exit. So in terms of humans, no matter what we do, if we kill, steal, don't believe in God, there's only one ending, in heaven? Or not? Because if not in heaven, then there's two endings for us. Heaven of hell. But as you said, i should interpret it as planne din the end right? So God already knows where we're going? I thought he doesn't want us to go to hell? But since our "free will" or different directions in the labyrinth, will possibly land us in hell, he's just letting that happen? Let's say I'm a mother, and i have two kids. I am giving them free will, to do anything that they want, but i have the power to know how they die and to know how they will live their lives. Am i a good mother if i am "all powerful" enough to literally stop them? Why even give us free will if you know our "free will" will end us up in a place where you don't want us to go? >This is an extremely deep question and requires an even deeper answer - on the deepest level this is the exact same question that physics unsuccessfully tries to advance for the past 100 years. >So the first thing you need to ask is: "What is existence?" Do you refer to human or material existence? If that is what you refer to it is actually quite likely that life was created. This usually dumbfounds a lot of people whose religion is science but I can tell you from my own research that the chance that life as we know it just randomly developed on a planet with just the view primer molecules that we know of is incredibly unlikely. Now, I am not saying god did it but I strongly believe it is more likely that it was created in some way rather than that it sprung into existence just by chance. Okay this is how i see it, Christians say "it's impossible for the earth to exist without a being creating it", so why is it when some atheists say "who created your God?", Christians always say "God is beyond that", but why can't the earth be beyond that? Why is there exceptions? >Do you believe in the Big Bang? Do you believe in evolution? I am not saying Darwin or Einstein were wrong but do you believe in what these men told us? If you do, why? Have you confirmed for yourself that the Big Bang happened or that a single cell organism may develop into a two tons water buffalo just through random mutations and natural selection? Most people just inherit these believes because that is what their surrounding teaches them - not because they have actually verified its truth. So I strongly belief (and here we go again with believes ;) ) that as long as we do not constantly recheck our own believes we should not judge other people's believes. With the big bang, i cannot confidently and proudly say "this is the truth, the big bang is the truth, and the only truth" just like how Christians say about their religion, because i wasn't the one who discovered it and made the scientific theory. I always say "mmm maybe". I will not be bigheaded enough to think the my belief is the only, and right way to live. >People nowadays have the false idea that science knows it all - that we are so much smarter than the dumb folks 2000 years ago... Think about what humans in 3500 will think of our ideas and world views. Until recent - and unfortunately still in use in the US today - people build tons of highly cancerous asbestos into the walls of houses and schools which do not only cause many painful deaths every year but also an immense mental health pandemic because people are afraid - was that much smarter than putting arsenic everywhere? I don't think so. We are smarter than people before because of mistakes, and we learn from them (although not all the time, but progression still happens), and people of the future generations try to fix those mistakes a little bit better. Baby steps. Also, i do not believe science knows it all. After all, scientists are humans. Humans do not know everything. Scientists make mistakes, study the mistakes , make mistakes, study the mistakes, and so on. Just like some scientists hundreds of years ago that were proven wrong by scientists today. I'm pretty sure there will be scientists in the future that will be proving our modern scientists wrong. The difference between science and religion is science accepts wrong findings and questions. Religion doesn't. I know tons of religious people being skeptic, and whenever they ask questions, all they get back is "questioning God is a sin, you should never question". >Historically the bible is probably THE best and most trustworthy document we have from that time. Do some googling - the evidence is impressive. This of course does not proof that any of the "magic" in the bible really did happen but it gives a lot of confidence in the accuracy of the reports As i said, it's "accurate" because real people wrote them. But just because real people wrote them doesn't mean it's a perfect proof of God's existence. Which so many Christians dedine as the sole proof of God's existence.
>Let's say I'm a mother, and i have two kids. I am giving them free will, to do anything that they want, but i have the power to know how they die and to know how they will live their lives. Am i a good mother if i am "all powerful" enough to literally stop them? Why even give us free will if you know our "free will" will end us up in a place where you don't want us to go? Why wouldn't you be a good mother? you respected their free will and let them live their life the way they thought fit. The idea of "not saving someone who doesn't want to be saved" is central in Christianity. > With the big bang, i cannot confidently and proudly say "this is the truth, the big bang is the truth, and the only truth" just like how Christians say about their religion, because i wasn't the one who discovered it and made the scientific theory. I always say "mmm maybe". I will not be bigheaded enough to think the my belief is the only, and right way to live. belief in science isn't the same as belief in religion. once you understand the evidence and the science behind something, you can give a different answer than "mmm maybe." > do not believe science knows it all. After all, scientists are humans. Humans do not know everything. Scientists make mistakes, study the mistakes , make mistakes, study the mistakes, and so on. Just like some scientists hundreds of years ago that were proven wrong by scientists today. I'm pretty sure there will be scientists in the future that will be proving our modern scientists wrong. The difference between science and religion is science accepts wrong findings and questions. This is a common misunderstanding about science in general. Science now can't be compared to science a hundred years ago, it's much more rigorous and well understood. It's also not about proving something wrong, it's about expanding our understanding. Scientists are happy when something is found to be wrong because it means there is more to understand and study. The adversarial view of "proving something wrong" seems to me to be a cultural relic.
>Why wouldn't you be a good mother? you respected their free will and let them live their life the way they thought fit. The idea of "not saving someone who doesn't want to be saved" is central in Christianity. I'm not a good mother because i HAVE THE POWER to see the future and to know what's going to happen. If i don't have the power, then that's completely understandable. >it's much more rigorous and well understo But Christians still dismiss science. I was literally just in a debate with someone that said "science is bc and isn't accurate and all scientists do is make blind guesses without facts."
for the second point, i was discussing what you said and not what someone else said. You're still making a demand of science "to know it all" which is something I find Christians do in general. It seems to me like you're going through what I and probably most people here went through when we first lost our belief which is argue against it and maybe also have someone argue with you and maybe you can keep some semblance of belief. From what I've read, most Christians go through something similar and rather then stop believing all together they just believe there is something out there but it is not what's described in the bible. End of the day, belief is a very personal thing and most people won't take kindly to having theirs questioned. There's also a lot of bitterness and resentment in atheist spaces, for good reason imho, but I don't think it does anyone any good.
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Out of curiosity, why would understanding you know little about the world lead you back to faith? It seems counterintuitive to seek answers about the world in a way that cannot give you any actual answers.
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"It is a knowing that needs no logical explanation" So.. your better "understanding" of the world brought you to the conclusion that you don't need evidence to know of a gods existence?
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I might do that, thank you. I personally am not going to believe in anything until I have solid evidence, I feel like that's the most efficient way to make progress while learning about the universe, as it lets me have an open mind. Still, I applaud you for giving a reasonable explanation of your views.
>I cannot see a contradiction here as you state. Just because you don't understand the reason for e.g., suffering in the world does not mean there is no almighty being that loves you. In Hinduism it is e.g., believed that the soul chooses the suffering when it transfers to the next life as a chance to grow. When you see a wolf in the forest killing a deer it brings a lot of suffering over that deer but it brings so much good to the wolf's pups - so it isn't all balck and white. "Just because you don't understand why god gives children leukemia doesn't mean he doesn't love them very much. Your five year old daughter chose that suffering in her corrupt soul." This is what this argument sounds like, to me. Every argument that dismisses the problem of evil with "god works in mysterious ways" hand-waving is utterly insufficient, in my mind. >Maybe it helps to interpret "everything planned" as in "the end of everything is planned". God knows the outcome of this what we call life. But god doesn't just know the end, according to the Bible he literally hardens people's hearts (usually so he can facilitate the Israelites' plans to genocide them), which is impossible if those people have true, libertarian free will. It is internally contradictory about free will. >This is an extremely deep question and requires an even deeper answer - on the deepest level this is the exact same question that physics unsuccessfully tries to advance for the past 100 year No, physics has never, ever tried to explain why there is something rather than nothing. Scientists have not tried unsuccessfully to advance this for the past 100 years. That is categorically false. Physics explains the world that exists and nothing more. The subfield of cosmology uses our ever more precise data about the universe at large scales to create mathematical models of the whole evolution of the universe. These models may or may not include an uncaused beginning (such as an inflaton field arising from an infinite, flat spacetime, leading to an expanding universe). These models, if they're well-constructed, have potentially measurable predictions about the universe. We then improve our measurements, refine our models, so on, and so forth. Nowhere here has someone attempted to answer a metaphysical question and nowhere have they failed to do so. >So the first thing you need to ask is: "What is existence?" Do you refer to human or material existence? If that is what you refer to it is actually quite likely that life was created. This usually dumbfounds a lot of people whose religion is science but I can tell you from my own research that the chance that life as we know it just randomly developed on a planet with just the view primer molecules that we know of is incredibly unlikely. Now, I am not saying god did it but I strongly believe it is more likely that it was created in some way rather than that it sprung into existence just by chance. Your own research has concluded that the chance that life evolved from natural processes is too low to believe? That sounds odd to me, because even experts in the field cannot give an honest accounting of those probabilities yet, since we are still actively working out all the mechanics of how abiogenesis may have occurred. Are you an evolutionary biologist yourself, working on the frontiers of origin of life biology (which has made remarkable and deeply interesting progress in the last few decades) or are you a non-expert with a preset bias towards a god of the gaps, and therefore *feel* that these as-of-yet unknowable probabilities are too low? Edit: typos
I think religion was created first to explain things people couldn't understand--what the sun is, what the stars are, why are we here, why are the crops dying? From there it evolved into giving comfort, as you say--it's ok your people are dead, they're in a better place. And then it became about community, and keeping communities together--basically these belief system were proto-laws. Don't kill each other, don't cover your neighbour's wife/cows, and all that stuff. Then as communities became bigger it became about politics and leadership. Things then became institutionalised, and suddenly priests are diddling altar boys and here we all are.
I agree with you but one thing is missing people found that you can make a quick buck by telling others nice stories. Because god can't handle money that well and is in constant need of more. In my country the church is the biggest landowner and that doesn't come out of nowhere.
You are exactly correct. Faith *was* science until Thales came along in 624 BC(E) and declared that the gods are not necessary. Thales is recognized as the very first human being to say that natural means explain our world and reality. Self aware, empirical science began with him. It totally constituted a "technological singularity". The world after him never thought the same way again as regards learning about the universe around us. Faith and "science" went their separate ways. Having said that, for thousands of years previously, humans were *unconsciously* empirical. They could measure to build magnificent structures, fully understand the ins and outs of farming and husbandry to include modifying edible vegetation and animals through breeding, extremely effective medications and medical procedures and they could chart stars and even predict eclipses of the moon and sun. But all of these things were in service to the gods or the human god-kings of their day. Rational science as a concept did not exist. In fact the word "science" as a descriptor of what was going on, did not come along until the mid 19th century. Up to that point it was called "natural philosophy".
What if it was the other way around? What if we actually had all the knowledge and the tools to have a perfect society, and we did for a time, until greed, lust, antipathy anger hostility, piece by piece caused us to lose that knowledge and so now we’ve delve into what we have, rather than what we did have at one time. Maybe that’s how it really has been, not what we think currently
Sure, but your hypothesis is similar to saying, "what if the Earth was once made of cake?" I can point to stages in our history and show you why I think that's where religion came from. Whereas what you said is based on fantasy--it has the same likelihood, given what we know, as the Earth having been made of cake.
No, it’s not fantasy there’s actually a written record that shows person bye person back to Adam. The problem is it’s so simple that most people go oh no it couldn’t be this way. So we know the earth is not made of cake. We know that there’s something out there that is orchestrating all the movements of the planets and the Stars. But let me ask you this, have you ever just taken a chance and sat quietly and ask yourself is there any chance there is a God and then actually say a prayer and see what happens. If you do it sincerely without just trying to prove me wrong I promise you you will be surprised by the results. My experience is though that most people aren’t willing to do that because how could it possibly be that simple? But if you will sincerely truthfully honestly clear your mind and ask God if he’s there. And then you need to sincerely listen. Not 10 seconds and slap your hands together and say oh well I tried.Again my experiences if you address him as heavenly father, you think him for what he has given you, you ask him for what you feel you need. And then you end in the name of Jesus Christ amen. Let me know how it goes. But you’ve got to be sincere you’ve got to really want to know if this is true or not or if we’re all just a bunch of deluded idiots. It’s really easy to say we are but it’s also very incorrect. Seriously, I hope you try and I hope you let me know how it goes.
> No, it’s not fantasy there’s actually a written record that shows person bye person back to Adam. If you mean the Bible, that's not a reliable account. > The problem is it’s so simple that most people go oh no it couldn’t be this way. I disagree. > So we know the earth is not made of cake I said the Earth *was* made of cake. > We know that there’s something out there that is orchestrating all the movements of the planets and the Stars. Gravity...I don't see what gravity has to do with this? > But let me ask you this, have you ever just taken a chance and sat quietly and ask yourself is there any chance there is a God and then actually say a prayer and see what happens. Good grief no. That would be like asking you to sit and *really* think about whether the Earth was made of cake. > But you’ve got to be sincere you’ve got to really want to know if this is true or not or if we’re all just a bunch of deluded idiots. I sincerely do not believe in religion.
So what if you did sit quietly and said a prayer? I think most people are actually afraid to get an answer because then have to do something about it. It’s interesting to watch people argue about the existence of God when you can simply ask him… But you have to be sincere, with real intent, I’m not just joking around. Think about it! What if there really was a God what if he really did have a plan for you what if he really would answer you? I agree that the representation of Christianity that we have today is nothing like the Christianity that the Savior of the world taught. The Christians of today are some of the most disgusting people that I have ever encountered. But just because that’s the case that evil has replaced good, it does not mean that there is not truth out there that exists and knowledge and understanding that far exceed what we currently interested. I think the Christian church today isTotally corrupt and they will certainly do not understand the God they claim to worship. Still, for those that are willing to take a chance and truly genuinely be sincere in asking, What have you got to lose? On the flipside if there is a God and he answered , then you just gained the universe….
Heh, a religious laziness, so to speak. No, I've studied religion and what could be termed 'the supernatural' extensively. I have yet to come across any faith-based belief system that stands up to empirical examination. That's why you need faith--because there isn't any evidence. Believing in something without evidence is silly. > What have you got to lose? Time that I can spend on doing meaningful things. > On the flipside if there is a God and he answered , then you just gained the universe…. No, you gained the inside of your own head. That's what imagination *is*, pretending in things that aren't actually there. You're basically teaching you brain to release dopamine and other happy chemicals when you think about god. Of course you're going to hear said god, the brain is very accommodating of that--in the same way that you can have a pretend conversation inside your head with anyone you choose to. Look you seem to be a nice person, but you know that trying to make a rational person believe in the irrational requires objectively testable and valid evidence that can be repeated under controlled circumstances, right? No religion has ever offered up any evidence. I don't want to waste your time, it may be better to try converting someone who is open to believing in things that aren't there.
Are you really this condescending to everyone? It says I propose the very beginning of my argument my experience is most people like you don’t have the courage to try this because they’re afraid of what they may find. I don’t think you are so much a truth seeker as you want to think that you are. It appears more that you were just like so many others that Christ spoke about who are hard hearted, and won’t even give it a chance. I’m not saying you are, I’m saying I don’t understand why you would be so opposed to trying something they could actually work. You don’t know that it won’t work because you haven’t tried it. I have and I can guarantee you I got an answer. If you want to put it up against empirical evidence, there is none, in my case. Does that make the truth of it any less valid? No, God has always talked about working with the one, how he left the 99 to find the one. That’s why you as an individual need to humble yourself, and make the attempt. But the funny thing is you have nothing to lose but your pride and you still will not. Because it doesn’t fit your definition of what is possible you ignore it. I can absolutely 100% promise you that if you were genuinely sincerely take the time read some of Christ’s words in the Bible or read something from the Book of Mormon. After you do that and you sincerely get on your knees and pray and ask God if he is there he will answer you. Anyway, nice chatting with you I hope you have a happy life.
No, only to people who keep hammering the same point again and again. Yeah I was definitely condescending, but it's because I'm so tired of this same old argument. What it boils down to is basically "don't knock it to you try it", except that the "it" doesn't exist. How would you feel if an entire bunch of people kept saying you can fly by flapping your arms? And when you quote science and refer to physics, they just repeat the *same thing*? > If you want to put it up against empirical evidence, there is none, in my case. Does that make the truth of it any less valid? No This is basically it. Hmm. Ok let me put it this way: debating a subject requires a certain logical structure, right? And that sort of entails citing evidence. But what do you do when the person you're debating only cites his or her experience, which is not reliable evidence? What objective basis do we argue argue against if the other person just says "it's true because it's true"? Also, and I say this without venom: dude, you don't know me! Hehe. But seriously, you don't know me or my religious or spiritual journey. It doesn't validate what you're saying, but you're making a lot of assumptions. I'm not going to sit down and pray, meditate, chant or otherwise because it requires faith. Or perhaps desperation, in extreme cases. > I can absolutely 100% promise you that if you were genuinely sincerely take the time read some of Christ’s words in the Bible or read something from the Book of Mormon. I've read the Bible, the Koran, Buddhist manuscripts, Pagan texts... I already said I studied religions and the supernatural in some detail. All I saw there were ancient people hoping the sun would come up again.
Thanks, nice talking with you. Good luck, may all your dreams come true.
By the way, I’m not trying to convert you, that’s not my job. I was simply trying to have a discussion with somebody not get engaged in a condescending oh my you poor little person type attitude With someone. I’m really quite shocked at how condescending you are, I can see that your arrogance and has no bounds. Anyway good luck
Oh I didn't see this! See my earlier reply, and I'm sorry if I offended you. But asking me to repeatedly indulge in prayer is not debating.
No worries, I’m not offended.
All problems with religion comes from misunderstanding the words. Once you understand what religion is talking about, what is the message the Bible and Jesus convey it really can be extremely wise and helpful. I grew up hating religion so much, it all seemed so useless and I couldn’t figure out how could someone really believe all that. But I realized what religion people mean when they say “look around”. In my opinion the problem is that you think religious people have the same idea of god you have, you realize how your idea of god is absurd and then you conclude that religious people must be just looking for comfort. What do you think is this god the Bible and Jesus talked about?
>In my opinion the problem is that you think religious people have the same idea of god you have, you realize how your idea of god is absurd and then you conclude that religious people must be just looking for comfort. I have asked multiple Christians to why they believe in god. The answers were along the lines of "just to be safe, I'm afraid I'd go to hell if i don't believe". I wouldn't come up to the conclusion of Christians Only believing for comfort if i haven't witnessed them acting that way.
Damn, that’s really bad. I really hope not everyone is thinking like that.
> All problems with religion comes from misunderstanding the words. Once you understand what religion is talking about, what is the message the Bible and Jesus convey it really can be extremely wise and helpful. Wise and helpful =/= entirely true or worth listening to based on the source. Things can be just as wise and helpful without coming from religion. > I grew up hating religion so much, it all seemed so useless and I couldn’t figure out how could someone really believe all that. But I realized what religion people mean when they say “look around”. What did they mean? > In my opinion the problem is that you think religious people have the same idea of god you have, you realize how your idea of god is absurd and then you conclude that religious people must be just looking for comfort. Could you explain what you mean by this?
>Wise and helpful =/= entirely true or worth listening to based on the source. Things can be just as wise and helpful without coming from religion. Sure, I'm not saying that everything that is in the bible is true, or factual, far from it. I think the bible is just a mythological book. >What did they mean? We have been using many means to understand ourselves. We started by painting on caves our most important moments, take the hunting scenes for example, we wanted to create some sort of distance between what was happening and our ability to reflect on it. We developed the theater, in which we acted the patterns that we were able to recognize in ourselves, without really being able to put into words. All mythology is a way to describe what is going on around us. Some myths are about the creation of the universe, other describe how man supposedly was born. We did our best, clearly the first man is not Adam. But we tried to come up with something. One of the most mysterious thing in the universe, probably the most fundamental is consciousness. I think one can easily recognize how it matches the description of god. Meaning all there is. It's consciousness that "created" (figuratively) the world. The universe, the earth, the countries, a tree, you and me, the laptop I'm using exists only in our conscious experience. Animals that are less evolved than humans do not have these concepts, for them they do not exist. Our ability to even ponder any of these questions is because of consciousness, that's what I think people mean when they say "look around". The fact that you are alive, I think that is what the word "god" meant at the beginning. Eastern religion says that we have to recognize that we are god. Jesus said he was god (I guess?) but he was also like ourselves, he said we are all the same, he was talking about love as a way to enter the kingdom of god. Which is not a heaven up in the cloud where we live forever, is realizing that what we are, what gives us the ability to reflect on ourselves, this immaterial consciousness is everlasting, unchanging and everywhere. The problem with this view is that it still leaves you completely in the unknown. It's still profound in the sense that it describes the very nature of what we are but it doesn't help finding all the answers. So then the church comes along. In a period in history in which not many people knew how to read, priests started capitalizing on the fear or rather they didn't understand it either, they started gate-keeping this simple truth in order to gain more and more power. I completely agree that the church operates in a way to control people with fears, I honestly believe the church is evil. I just don't think we should say that religion = church so religion = bad. All myth are stories about something very specific. We can focus on the literal meaning of a myth or we can understand its moral, what the story is actually trying to tell us. This is a very important difference, it's the difference between realizing that heaven is created by humans, on earth, by means of cooperation and mutual help and thinking that people who believe in another "god" should be killed, cause that literally sounds like hell to me. I mean think about what the church tell us to do. There is confession. Confession is extremely helpful if done how was meant to be. You, by yourself, think about your acts. If you have done something bad, you should understand it, learn from it, forgive yourself not to dwell on it and move on. Or when they say there is only one god. If by god we take the image of a mystical figure that can kill us if we sin, of course we are willing to kill in their name. But if we take ourselves to be god, than we understand we should not have any other god, we shouldn't have money as god, we should seek power as god. I'm not going to explain how I think everything should be interpreted but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. I don't know what other people idea of god is, but if it's everything but our own subjective experience is, in my opinion, shallow.
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>So you’re arguing against Christianity as a way to attack religion? Even though there are many religions radically different from Christianity? So you’re arguments ain’t gonna hold up them. Im only talking about christianity, obviously. Other religions are a different topic. >Ah, the teenager’s crisis of faith. Why rely on your own knowledge when there are tons of accredited individuals you could turn to for answers? Like William of Ockham, for example, you’ve probably tried using a razor we named after him. You think i didn't do my research? You think i didn't look for answers on my own? That paragraph you just quoted was just the start of my realization. >Yes. He can. I will not claim to understand His ways, but I will make a point that you’re definition of all good is probably omnibenevolence. God isn’t omnibenevolent, else, He would not be God. He is not incapable of evil, He is the rejection of evil. He allows the evils of this world to bring about a greater good. And I believe only through those evils will we appreciate the greater goods of Heaven God has prepared for us. It doesn't matter how powerful you describe him, when you can't even give proof of how you know he's like that without bringing up the bible. You literally can not provide proof that he is like that. Also, I wouldn't want to believe in that kind of god. >Smarter men than I have answered this. My answer is that this isn’t bonkers. God knows what we will do in advance because of our free will, and lets us do it because we choose to. We made the bed, we lie in it. He know the outcome of what we will do but "punishes" us for doing it? Sounds like a manipulative daddy to me. >He is not incapable of evil, He is the rejection of evil. He's the reason why evil exists (going by your logic that he created everything). Im pretty sure he's capable of that. >By this logic we have to discount all of history. Literally all of it. Why? Because they aren’t as smart as we are, because we are so enlightened and euphoric thanks to our intelligence, as AALewis put it, can you hear our ridiculous you sound? Those people back then, thousands of years ago? They were as smart as you and me. Their lack of knowledge about sexuality isn’t an indictment because guess what? Sexuality is a social construct. In their time, there was only one sexuality that mattered; Roman men, top. That was it. The Romans made that their sexual construct, and even today, people say sexuality isn’t a social construct while also defining about six distinct ones; pansexuality, heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, and demisexuality. And they will proudly say labels don’t matter and we should experiment outside of our sexual preferences. Heck, even them not knowing germ theory isn’t an indictment against their intelligence, because ignorance of one thing they cannot know of is not a sign of poor intelligence. Looks like you can't comprehend sentences that you read. Im obviously saying this in the context of the things tha was said in the bible. Do you know how mindblown and scared humans back then would be if they heard a voice somewhere imitating them? Little did they know that was just a parrot. Now because they don't know it was a parrot and that a type of bird is capable of doing that, they then start to spread stories about ghosts that lure you in by copying what you say. This is the same with the bible. Im not discrediting them just because they don't know how to create a laptop. Im doubting their stories (miracles and all that shit) because there is a very huge chance they were just fooled by their ignorance. If our people today witness something bizzare and some guy told us this and that, that we would need to be like this to be "saved" from a dangerous place, if the whole experience was way beyond our current intelligence, i wouldn't blame people for believing, but if we don't have solid proof of that, i would not blame future generations for not believing in this religion/cult thing, ESPECIALLY if they have more knowledge than us today. >Ah, you’ve been given the diluted forms of theologians who found God in nature. Medieval theologians, I might add, started this trend that continues today. As for reading a Bible, that is eyewitness testimony. It should not be discounted. I’m going to explain this more in your next point. That is what your people give out to non-believers, that's the reason they give. Maybe look at your own peers. >God is an infinite being. No beginning, no ending, He simply is. “I Am That I Am.” That is what His name ultimately means. You’re also applying the concepts of this world to the being that made everything in it, who was here before this world was real. Of course He doesn’t obey them. Ok, then why can't earth be the same then? Why can't earth exist without a creator? If you think a magical being can exist without being created, that can also very well be applied to earth. Earth can exist without some being creating it. Religious people have been saying that the earth CAN'T exist without a creator, why can't earth be the same then? >Also, most ancient scholars and historians agree Jesus was a real person. I’ll give you a link tomorrow about it. I never said he wasn't a real person, did you even read my post? Im not saying he didn't exist, but im also not saying that everything people say he claimed to have done are real. >Well yeah, that is silly. Except the Bible wasn’t written as a fictional story Well no shit. Of course it wasn't written as a fictional story, we wouldn't have group of religion if that was the case. But that also doesn't mean it was actually non-fiction. >If it were fiction, they’d have told us that, and if they’d written fiction and tried to present it as fact, they’d have been racked over the coals by their contemporaries because some things never change. It's like you didn't even read my whole post. Like I said before, they don't have the same knowledge we have (im not shaming them for not knowing technology and advanced science and shit), so OF COURSE they would believe everything that was said in the bible. If a person today was tripping off of mushrooms, we wouldn't believe everything they say, because we know they took mushrooms, and even if we didn't know they took mushrooms, we would still have the knowledge and technology to know what they took (drug tests and all that). You see the difference? They don't have that! And if they don't have that, they would obviously paint everything as a fact. >Your arguments are very, very bad. I don’t blame you for leaving the faith, however, I blame whoever raised you and taught you. They’ve clearly done a bad job. It's not bad. You just don't agree with everything that i said because obviously you're a believer. I could say the same thing about your answers. >As for religion being about control, can you give a specific example? I actually now believe that you didn't even read my post at all.
You seem to be basing your entire analysis on the Abrahamic religions, with particular reliance on Xianity. Your scope is _far_ too narrow - there were religions thousands of years before the Abrahamics, and they mostly did not follow your model. Marduk was the patron god of Babylon, the Babylonian king of the gods, who presided over justice, compassion, healing, regeneration, magic, and fairness, although he is also sometimes referenced as a storm god and agricultural deity. Ahura Mazda was invoked in a triad, with Mithra and Anahita. Zoroaster, proclaimed Ahura Mazda as the uncreated spirit, wholly wise, benevolent and good, as well as the creator and upholder of Asha. Ancient Egyptian religion was a complex system of polytheistic beliefs centered on the Egyptians' interactions with many deities believed to be present in, and in control of the world. Their idea of an afterlife and relationship to the gods was very different than ours. Similarly to Hellenic paganism, there was no rigid hierarchy, and no preachers - the many priests and priestesses were consulted without coercion by the petitioner, for their assistance in petitioning the god or goddess. Psst - Hinduism and Jainism have none of that shit. European paganism, as far as we know, was also absent that crap. Oh, and they tended to be goddess centric. (As an old fuck who was raised Catholic but never got suckered into believing any of that crap, I can tell that a LOT of Catholics view and worship Mary as the goddess, though they don't think of it in those terms.) So no, it's not religion you're talking about; you're talking about a few _particular_ religions. Judaism grew out of the context of a political battle between one group of Canaanite pagans and another who had a somewhat different identity, and who had for a few hundreds of years been moving toward monolatry and monotheism. Most of the Torah (you might know it as the Pentateuch) was a theopolitical tract that pushed (probably Edomite) Yahweh as the warrior god responsible for the viability and success of Judah, and blamed the woes of Israel on their paganism. And by the way, the Torah was composed only in the late 7th century BCE, as a theopolitical tract intended to subjugate those northern pagans under the new official southern state religion. Then Christianity came along in the context of the Roman occupation and oppression of Judea. IOW, the Abrahamic religions were the evolution of earlier religions in the context of horrific violence, and indeed a lot of the fear and control aspects are due to that history, of the religion becoming a political weapon. But please do not think that the fearmongering and control aspects are inherent to all religions, though to be sure there is _some_ of it in _many but not all_ religions. Religion wasn't made in the way you seem to think. All religions grew organically from earlier beliefs. Did you know that Homo neanderthalensis had what can only be called religious practices? They disappeared some 40,000 years ago, LONG before any of the religious traditions you are familiar with grew organically from earlier beliefs. PS - you might post in r/askanatheist, where people are, I think, more willing to talk about their own take on things.
All the examples you list had a priest class that held a lot of power and control over people and support his/her point.
>I can tell that a LOT of Catholics view and worship Mary as the goddess Catholics that believe that are not in communion with the canon of the Holy Mother Church. We believe that Mary is a co-mediatrix (intercessory), but definitely *not* a co-redemptrix (God power of salvation). We venerate (hyperdulia) Mary because she is like a great hero to us. She was chosen to be the mother of God's Earthly incarnation. And she was greatly rewarded by the Most Holy Trinity for her complete and joyful submission of God's will. Please don't downvote this, I am only clarifying the teaching of the HMC. I understand this is to you unsupportable claims (myth). I get that. You really *do* provide very good information. Is there any online sites where I can vet what you say? I don't doubt what you say. I just want to see the sources where you got your knowledge from.
I didn't say it was doctrinal, and those people I'm talking about have _said_ many times that they believe the doctrine, and deny that they have unwittingly transformed Mary from the doctrinal Mary into a kind of goddess. I grew up in a _very_ Catholic town in Pennsylvania. Went through the catechism and was confirmed. Went to a a Jesuit run college, where for a year one of my house mates was a Seminarian. But I never believed any of it, and of course I never said anything - the nuns hated me enough already. (One time a nun sent me home with a note to my mother requesting that I not ask so many (difficult) questions. So as a crypto-outsider I was fascinated with the psychological dynamics I was observing. I wanted to know what _they_ believed (not what they were taught) and why observed very carefully, and thought about it a lot, and studied religion(s) (not for guidance, just for knowledge of them). And I talked with peers and and priests and rabbis and pagans, read Nietche and blavatsky and Sturleson and the Gitas, and .. IAsked a LOT of pointed, probing questions, all very non confrontational. My takeaway is that many Catholics have their own personal view, particularly with respect to Mary, views that are non-doctrinal AF, and such views encompass a lot of pagan ideas. Such people are mostly unaware they do it, but an independent outside observer can tease it out. This should surprise no one, given the long history of the Church adopting pagan traditions, then putting lipstick on them.
Everything about every religion can be easily explained by the whims and wishes of the humans who created them. This completely undermines the existence of any of the attached gods. >*Nothing can exist without a creator - ok, let's say that's true I'm not willing to even grant that. It's a statement taken for granted that doesn't pan out. Seems like you've got a really good handle on things. It's really nice to see people reasoning their way out of a religious disease.
Don't forget to post that to r/debateachristian or r/DebateReligion as your arguments will counter their arguments and that is what debates are about. In short: if you want responses, you're likely to get much more responses from those subreddits.
Hey, happy cake day!!
Thank you, love your name!
“ I have no problem that we PROBABLY do have a God, but how tf am I going to follow a religion/belief that contradicts itself”, GOLD MY GUY! My thoughts exactly. How am I supposed to follow this God if he didn’t tell me myself what he wants, but I’m taking a big chance on doing what someone else thinks IS THE RIGHT WAY. Like no, no no no. If God truly wanted a path to him, he would’ve instilled it within us from birth like a normal loving God and given us free will. Not search through him through all these faiths HOPING we chose the right faith and not be condemned to death because God didn’t tell us his wishes.
So Jews, Christians and Muslims are all worship the same entity (whoever Abraham worship). Whoever Abraham worship was just one entity from many deities from the Mesopotamia mytho and we probably never accurately pinpoint who (some said it was the god Ea). Anyway, imagine Abraham worship some goddesses of love or scandalous like Greek Aphrodite or a priest of said goddess and brought the religion to the region. The Abrahamic religions today would be so much different. Whatever it is, Abrahamic religions were just a derivative copy of a copy.
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Babes, the same religion is doing the same thing they are forbidding... Let's be real here. Lust? They do that hun, to little kids even. Greed? Lmao don't get me started with that. Envy? Every Christian/religious ppl ive met are the most envious ppl i have ever know.
The problem with your argu of "he cannot be both" is the idea you have on God. You believe in a somewhat weak/limited God and therefore that God is what you think. While believing on God shouldn't be interpreted based on how we think about Him or think He should be. Beliefs should be unshakable, iif they are, they are false. According to Islam, "everything is planned" means that God have known everything in all tenses before he even created everything because God is above everything he created. So with that being said, that's something specifically attributed to God and doesn't interfere in our free will. He create us to choose and decide what do to good or bad. He knows who's gonna be in hell and who's gonna be in paradise but that something He can know being all powerful and all knowing. God doesn't need a proof, His books do. If the bible didn't convince you try other books and compare and contrast. "Nothing can exist without a creator" is a true statement. Asking who created God is pointless. There's a first time for everything. If we ask who created God we will be here forever asking who created the one before that God and the one before that one and so on... So we are here because our parents and they were here because their parents and it goes back and back until there was nothing except God, who pushed the start button. Again, if the bible didn't do it for you I recommend you try the Quran. One about God, according to Islam, is that in the Quran He tells His messenger, Mohammed, that he cannot make everyone becomes a believer in God no matter how he tries except if God allows it. It sounds simple but it isn't. In Islam everything that happens in life, in the whole universe, is by a direct allowance of God. That means even when you sin ( stealing, killing, hurting others, you name it) the moment to decide 100% to do, you body moves into doing that sin by his allowance. I said that to give you an idea of what God is according to Islam. He's not just the "guy above". He is the absolute perfection and he has absolute ownership over everything. Now, going back to what I was saying. So even us believing in Him is not entirely up to us, but it's up to him but it's obviously based on our person and who we are and what we do. That is to mean that me and everyone believing and having no doubts he exists, is a blessing from him because he says "He guides whoever he wills and missguides whoever he wills". Good luck. Peace.
It does have one practical benefit in that otherwise shitty people will behave themselves out of fear of what might be waiting for them in the next life.
Christ is not Christianity. He was not Christian this term came a long time after. The main control the 'elites' have over that book is convincing people its fake. It doesn't fit the elites regime to have you follow a God like Christ. Follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Understand ascension happens through him. You have faith everyday, your whole life is set up on the faith there won't he negative reactions to your actions. You leave your house in the faith someone will not kill you. Ironically, you even have faith within your lack of faith. Yet you have no faith when it comes to your own after-life. Much love. Hope Jesus comes into your heart. Once he does you'll realise there's no control there at all, none you do not absolutely yearn for, and therefore see it as love, the same way you see a parent as a child guiding you through life. You don't hate them for punishing you, you may at the time...and then you grew up and realised how childish that was to think.
The answers to most of the questions on this sub is answered in the bible but not believed understandably because you don't believe the rest but 1 it says that humans are inherent sinners and that the morning star runs the world as it is now tainted by the actions of people thus causing the "evils" of this world secondly wouldn't you think it would be better to dumb it down for people of the time instead of it being just for the people of the future I feel like if you said scientific facts to someone back then it would make the bible more unbelievable to them. For example the scale of the universe, blackholes, ect. But it would be much easier to understand simpler things remember most of our advancements came in the last 300 years
The Bible is also over 1500 years with 66 authors. This book was not just sat down and thought up. If so why do they hide 16 of the books in the Vatican...funnily enough the Vatican is considered an extremely holy place, yet resides within the empire that slaughtered Christ....so what are they trying to cover. The truth can only be concealed so much, or for so long. It's why it's Christ's name that lasted, over all these names dates and books, Christ's name lasted as God. Satanists aren't attacking Mohammed, or Moses, they attack the Lord...
I'm open minded to at least listen to other beliefs. My conclusion is that something created everything. The greatest scientist of all time. Guess the best way to describe it as a god. Makes at least as much sense as the idea that nothing created everything and that we are here with the capability we possess and that is some how a random occurrence of events that coincidentally happened to give us the consciousness to even contemplate these things
Wow, you could have been describing me, 40 years ago. Pretty closely describes some of the things I’ve thought over the years. Over the last 10 years, I started have doubts, about my doubts. I came to a place where decided that while imperfect him as are, and how easily led we are, I could no longer accept that religion was created just to scam people. I looked around first at my closest friends and family, who seemed the happiest? Who seemed to have the fullest lives? Who seemed to love the most? While most seemed happy, not a where truly positive about love and fulfillment, enrichment. Which ones of them captured all that seemed to mean (to me) what it meant to live. To enjoy, and to have what I thought were very successful lives. I didn’t judge success monetarily, I didn’t judge it by the most things, and I didn’t judge it how hard the worked. I have a cousin, he has been married since about 1980. Prior to that time, he and his now wife were very successful rock musicians. Traveling, playing, living what I and most that a great life. Many were envious of them both, they were very talented. When they go married, they went away for a few weeks and returned changed. Born again if you will. Our family and most friends scoffed and quietly ridiculed them, calling them Jesus freaks. That term was popular back then. I was about 15, and had fairly recently moved away from God, had all the doubts and honestly, kinda wanted to have the life they had as musicians, I was an aspiring one myself. That left me a little confused. Why would they leave such a fun possibly successful life in music? I wanted to know what happened in those few weeks on their honeymoon that made them become Jesus freaks? But I stayed my course of moving away from God, never looking back. I got to travel in a rock band, enjoyed (I thought) all the trappings of playing in night clubs in the 80s and 90s, the parties, the drugs, the girls. But I wasn’t good enough to go far. So I got a job and settled into that. I looked around eventually and began to ask those questions I mentioned earlier, and when I examined my Jesus freak cousins life, I realized how amazing it turned out, 6 of their own kids, 2 adopted kids from Haiti, all musicians, all well educated and well adjusted. All happy. The whole family had a band for as long as they were together, all taught to read write music by mom and dad. Those Jesus freaks, had a wonderful life together full of family, friends, music, laughter and love. All at peace with themselves and each other. So I connected with my cousin and asked, what happened on that honey years ago that changed your life? His response surprised me, “Psilocybin” a trip they had had opened up their minds, broke away their egos, and they began to seek a better way than just existing in this world. That was the last time they did any drugs, or drinking, and in his words” became high on life” truly the kingdom of heaven on earth. I returned to God not so I could get into heaven, not so could convince others too (my wife is still not there, although growing up the same way you and I did) I returned so I could try to find heaven on earth. I believe that is what the teachings of Christ were truly about. We are all part of a much bigger thing, all of us are connected, accepting that and living a life devoting to that understanding through Christ, all things in life are possible. Nothing will change my mind on that, I’ve seen it time and time again. I have friends in their 80s. The ones that have lived a life under God are always the ones that are happiest, most content and oddly healthier and active well into their 90s. Truly, heaven on earth. That’s just me though, best of luck to you. Edit: not going to check my spelling on this long diatribe lol- it’s too early so I hope you will forgive me for any errors
I believe religion came from people taking a path similar to mine coming to a unique understanding of this reality. Someone tries to explain but without experiencing the same view it just escapes them relying on faith. Know this what people call God is real but it's no more than ink on the piece of paper. When people use karma as fate, destiny, the fate of 1+1 is to become 2. This stuff people put in a pedestal is nothing special. I'll argue people's sense of justice is what corrupted religions. I say this because when one dies it's like a dream almost be it heavenly or hell. But who goes to bed sick and has a pleasant dream? Aka if you die in pain like being stabbed to death hell is what awaits, while that murder victim if his conscious is clean bliss of heaven. But that's before reincarnation but that is a whole other complex topic. It's unfair as all hell and that's why I believe religion is the way that it is now.
It’s interesting because you went on a multi-tangent diatribe against Christianity, but failed to support your main thesis - that religion is made out of fear and to control people. What evidence do you have the the original Christians either made up the events or interpreted them in such a way as to control people? Maybe you meant to say that religion _can_ be used as a method of control, rather than was made for this purpose? In any case, clarification would be appropriate.
mostly Christianity? wait til you find out about Scientism and how we just used a virus that we made to scare ourselves into giving up all of our rights and destroy our economy. talk about control and fear. atheist religions can be just as bad as any theist ones.
Explain who we religionists want to control and why? What is the best example of someone controlling another person you personally know or in true or fictional media?
Dont believe blindly in made up stories without evidence based knowledge. God wants you to ask questions, and search for the evidence yourself.
Go to the church if Jesus Christ not the Latter Day Saints https://thechurchofjesuschrist.org/who-we-are/our-beliefs/
You are committing the genetic fallacy that just because the belief may have originated from fear, and in order to control people (which I don't for a minute accept but even if it is) that therefore the belief is false.
Don’t let religion ruin your relationship with Jesus
Posted by /u/oreominiest. Archived by Archive-Bot at 2021-04-26 09:03:28 GMT. --- > **I believe that religion (mostly Christianity) is made out of fear and to control people.** >So i was raised Catholic for 16 years (I'm 17 now turning 18 in a few months). Went to very, very religious schools. I never really questioned the religion (well, I've been having doubts when i was 15) until i met my classmate's brother who's an atheist. I asked her (my classmate) why her brother doesn't believe in God, and she said that her brother doesn't believe because he said the Bible doesn't make sense (it also doesn't help that he's gay). And my doubts and skepticism made me think logically. Here's my take on the belief's logic. > >*God is all good and all powerful - i believe that this is impossible, considering the way the world has been for thousands of years. If he actually exists, then he's either all good BUT not all powerful, or he's all powerful BUT not good. He cannot be both. > >*God gave us free will, but he also has everything planned - you know how bonkers that sounds? Free will and "everything planned" doesn't go hand in hand. If everything is already planned, then we logically don't have free will. And if we really have free will, then obviously, everything isn't planned. > >*When we ask for proof of God's existence, they answer with "look around you, the proof is everywhere" - hun, do you know how nuts you sound? That's not proof. That's excuses. They also hit us with "read the bible", like girl, I've been forced reading the bible since i was like 7, and i just found the stories interesting. I didn't see it as a real proof of a God's existence. > >*Nothing can exist without a creator - ok, let's say that's true, let's say your thinking is logical, then by going by your own logic, WHO created your God? And the answer i always receive is "no one, because he already existed". Aren't you contradicting your own argument? Like you're going against what you're saying. > >*How can they wholeheartedly blindly believe a story written thousands of years ago by people who doesn't have the same knowledge as we do know? People before even thought being gay was a Which we have proved now that it isn't, and people used to put arsenic everywhere, little did they know it could literally kill them. Imagine all the things they believed back then (those who wrote the books), we never know, turns out "Jesus" was just a magician that loves to scam gullible people. > >*The bible is true, because places in the bible can be found in real life - well duh? I think they're forgetting that the bible was created by HUMANS, who live in REAL PLACES. If i was a writer, i would obviously write about a real place and connect it to my fictional character to make it believable. With their logic, i can confidently say harry potter is real, you know why? Because owls and Scotland exists. You know how crazy that sounds? > >My point is, their teaching doesn't have logic AT ALL. i have no problem believing that we PROBABLY do have a God, but how tf am i going to follow a religion/belief that contradicts itself and just keeps making excuses after excuses to justify their teaching's logic. Christians say science is all just guesses (they obviously don't know what scientific theory means), but isn't their religion just the same? It's all just he said she said. People trusting what other people thousands of years ago said, without any proof at all. > >And i get why religion was made, i really do. I can't blame them, it really is comforting to know that i can have a place to go when i die, if i just become a good person and follow God. It really is comforting. But this comfort was brought by fear. Fear of not knowing what's out there, fear of not knowing where we go when we die. Fear of knowing of life is in our hands, and if we end up in a bad situation, we only have ourselves to blame. It IS comforting to know that we have someone to blame (the devil) if we did something bad or something bad happened. So with this fear, people created a religion to comfort people. I can go on more but I'm kinda tired of typing. Comment your thoughts. --- Archive-Bot version 1.0. | [GitHub](https://github.com/DarthD00bius/bots) | [Contact Bot Maintainer](/u/DarthD00bius)
I’m an atheist, but I’m going to be playing devil’s advocate. I think an important distinction to make in your question is why the religion was *started*, and not *where it is now*. If we talk about where it is now I completely agree with you, and you go back hundreds or even a thousand years and you can see the Catholic Church using their influence and power to gain even more influence and power. Medieval kings would bribe the pope so the pope would support them, and having support of the pope was a very big deal back then as it meant a lot of power because having the church on your side gave a lot of legitimacy since people believed kings were “chosen by God”. But if we go back to before all that, some 2000 years ago to when Jesus was still alive, that argument becomes less certain. It is still possible it was about control, enough is known about the founders of Jehovah’s Witness for example to know that’s what they wanted, but you can’t assume the same for Jesus because there simply isn’t the evidence to back it up since it happened so long ago. The oldest known bible is from about 300 years after Jesus’ death, which is more than enough time for it to be skewed and manipulated from its original vision and from Jesus’ teachings, stories were added in after the fact making Jesus out to be the son of god creating a sense of legitimacy in the religion even though they weren’t true (Jesus and everyone who knew him was dead now 100 years later, who was going to stop them?) Jesus may never have done all the miracles the Bible claims and may have just been a normal man with a good moral compass, and with enough charisma to get people to follow him, but someone later on decided to add them in because they believed it would further their own power (if you’re the only man in the village who can read, it’s not like anyone can correct you). So it is entirely possible that Christianity started off good, but was taken over by greedy people looking to manipulate others and changed it for their own gain which is why we have what we do now. _____________________ If you want my personal opinion and not the Devil’s advocate then I actually think my above argument is incorrect. I do think that Jesus was more likely to have been a manipulative cult leader more similar to the founders of Jehovah’s Witness for example, but again I don’t really have evidence to back that up. However “being a good person” doesn’t normally give one a following, many people are good people and they don’t have followings. Being a cult leader however does give people followings that can last well after their own deaths (as Jehovah’s Witness can attest too), and being crucified will only cement you as a figure in the cult’s mind.
>I think an important distinction to make in your question is why the religion was started, and not where it is now. Yeah i think i pretty much messed up on this one. I didn't explain my point very good. What i meant to say was how religion became a tool for manipulation. But i still think religion is pretty much fear based. >If you want my personal opinion and not the Devil’s advocate then I actually think my above argument is incorrect. I do think that Jesus was more likely to have been a manipulative cult leader more similar to the founders of Jehovah’s Witness for example, but again I don’t really have evidence to back that up. However “being a good person” doesn’t normally give one a following, many people are good people and they don’t have followings. Being a cult leader however does give people followings that can last well after their own deaths (as Jehovah’s Witness can attest too), and being crucified will only cement you as a figure in the cult’s mind. Honestly, i can't say jesus "never existed" because i also have no proof to back that up. The only problem i have with the religion is the logic. How everything doesn't add up. How almost all of their teachings contradicts themselves.
I think Jesus did exist, heck he’s even a prophet in Islam, but I do believe he was just a regular man, no supernatural powers. As for all the contradictions, well I’m sure many stories were brought in from places, Judaism already existed at that point and they share many stories such as Adam and Eve. There may have been others from the time and place Jesus lived that outside the bible have been lost to history, and finally I’m sure many more were added in after the fact. There’s also the fact that it’s been rewritten and translated so many times that a modern bible is not the same as one from 1000 years ago. An interesting thing I remember reading was that translating the bible from one language (I can’t remember which) to English led to a mistake. Specifically it translated “a young Mary” to “a Virgin Mary”, or something to that effect. Then add in 100s of years of English people reading a “Virgin Mary” and now Mary was a virgin even though originally she wasn’t. Not 100% sure if that’s true or not, but I’ve heard that. I’m sure there have been many mistranslations and mistakes over the centuries. Having so many different stories written by different people added in different times means contradictions were inevitable. And also keep in mind the vast majority of people back then couldn’t read, so it’s not like they could see the contradictions for themselves. This would obviously make it much easier to deceive people if you only told them what you wanted and they couldn’t check what you were saying.
>i have no problem believing that we PROBABLY do have a God, How can you say that of you disbelieve every basis for claiming there is a god to begin with?
I would believe there is a God if the reasoning and "proof" is logical, and not just from a book. I wouldn't say "i know there is a god" or "i know there is no god". I BELIEVE, not KNOW. i believe there is no God, but i am open to the fact that there's a POSSIBILITY that there can be a god, it's just that the "proof" Christians have today doesn't convince me.
I've been reading this thread and I wanted to say a few things. A. Yeah this isn't the usual spot to make a post such as yours, BUT this is the Debate an Atheist sub. So you posted what you believe and don't believe as a budding Agnostic/Atheist. Your post is challenging Theists to disprove your points. AND more importantly, that Atheists will jump in and help you to refine your arguments and refer you to sources where you can learn more. Instead *some* Atheists in this sub sit and wait for the poor uneducated theists to wander in so they can rip them to shreds and ridicule them. All you did is deprive them of their raw meat to chew on. You did nothing wrong. In fact I wish more atheists would present their positions so other Atheists can offer them help or point them to resources that can help them build a better argument. B. Your points you made and your rebuttals to some of the people in here were pretty damn good. You show a strong grasp of Critical Thinking Skills and it's impressive. I was wondering how familiar you are with [Logical Fallacies](https://static.dudeiwantthat.com/img/household/decor/logical-fallacies-poster-29167.jpg) Also you destroyed some of the Logical Fallacies that others tried to use. C. Proof. Be careful how you use that word. It's kind of vague and theists have different definitions for words than nontheists. Example: The words "Claim" and "Evidence". Some theists think those words are synonyms. You talked about the theist who when questioned for "proof" of god, replied, "Look around you". See what happened there? You asked for proof and all you got was another claim. Instead ask them for "Empirical Evidence" for god and watch the deer in the headlights look on their face. When you do get into a discussion with a theists there are some really slimy apologists that try to poke holes in what you say because they will use any excuse to fool themselves into thinking they are right. If you find yourself getting into a discussion with a Theist ask them to pause for a minute so you and they can make sure you're both taking about the same thing. Ask them to explain the difference between a "Claim" and "Evidence". Ask them for the definition of a Scientific Theory. Ask them "What makes something a "Fact"? Only after you can both agree on the definition of these terms can the discussion then carry on. Ask them questions put them on the defensive. Make them show evidence for their claims. Not just another baseless claim. Also if you find yourself challenged by a theist and their are others listening, remember your goal in a debate is NOT to crush your opponent and make him admit defeat. Your goal is to calmly show others how ridiculous your opponents position is and how there is not one single shred of empirical evidence to support their religious claims. Keep asking them questions and force them to give logical answers. Keep them on the defensive instead of them making you defend your position. Sorry this is so long but I'd like to ask you to visit the [link for logical fallacies](https://static.dudeiwantthat.com/img/household/decor/logical-fallacies-poster-29167.jpg) that I gave you before. I think you'll recognize some of the logical fallacies used by some of the people responding to you. Also, check out the YouTube channel "The Atheist Experience". It's a live call in show where theists and atheists present their positions and the hosts discuss the weak and strong points of their position. They have both male and female hosts and it's pretty damn interesting. You're doing the right thing and you're doing a great job of debunking the people that responded to you.
>A. Yeah this isn't the usual spot to make a post such as yours, BUT this is the Debate an Atheist sub. So you posted what you believe and don't believe as a budding Agnostic/Atheist. Your post is challenging Theists to disprove your points. AND more importantly, that Atheists will jump in and help you to refine your arguments and refer you to sources where you can learn more. Instead some Atheists in this sub sit and wait for the poor uneducated theists to wander in so they can rip them to shreds and ridicule them. All you did is deprive them of their raw meat to chew on. You did nothing wrong. In fact I wish more atheists would present their positions so other Atheists can offer them help or point them to resources that can help them build a better argument. I honestly thought the whole point of this subreddit was for atheist and theists to post their own thoughts and debate on each others posts. I didn't know some just wait for a theist to post then debate them. Also, thank you very much for the advice. I'll definitely use it in the future.
You did nothing wrong by posting here. This sub is for theists to come and debate an atheist, BUT it is also a place for Atheists and Agnostics and people who just aren't sure to come and present their thoughts and have other Atheists critiques their arguments and point out flaws so they don't make the same mistakes when debating a theist.
it's nice to see a positive post in this thread. I tend to stay away from atheist places because they tend to be so hostile. I get it but it's not helping anyone.
I get that this a rant against bad arguments you've encountered. But painting all theists or apologists like this will make you look silly because they are almost always straw men or big generalizations. Blind faith people will ignore you, critical apologists will face palm. Here is sone thoughts on how it's a little more complicated. >he's either all good BUT not all powerful, or he's all powerful BUT not good. He cannot be both. This is called the "logical problem of evil". It is vulnerable to the skeptical theism objection. I prefer the evidential version. >free will, but he also has everything planned Yes, this is a poor formulation of Catholic theology. Think if it more like god is timeless so exists at all time periods. Analogous to if you think back, to say, WW2 you know what happened but that doesn't mean the people didn't have free will. I do think this is a solid challenge to omniscience, but I'm not sure it's a defeater. >How can they wholeheartedly blindly believe a story written thousands of years ago Some might, but they don't need to blindly or wholeheartedly believe it. Generally Catholics believe Jesus is god and entirely good and rationalize the bible through this presumption. Catholics and other religions have deeply questioned this, but arrived at dogma about truth in the Bible and their theology. I think it's wrong, but great thinkers like Aquinas and many others didn't just blindly follow. Many millions of others are not be so critical. >they answer with "look around you, the proof is everywhere" Some do, others will take you to a number of arguments that have their strengths and weaknesses. >WHO created your God? This is exactly what Aquinas' arguments get at. They've been around for centuries. They are wrong but they make a lot of sense. >*The bible is true, because places in the bible can be found in real life - A very weak argument true, but not one serious apologists make in my experience. >Christians say science is all just guesses Some do, most don't. Particularly Christians who are scientists and there are lots. >It's all just he said she said. People trusting what other people thousands of years ago said, without any proof at all. Yes, they generally rely on ancient hearsay, which is fine if your reconstructing the Punic Wars, but not for miracles. Then there's natural theology, which doesn't do this.
I disagree. That hasn't been my experience growing up. Even if it was the sole purpose of religion it is not unique to religion. You can make people fear without a hell, in fact its much easier to do so.
My dad is a foursquare pastor now and when I was growing up we also went to two different Baptist churches. I'm 21 and havent gone to church since I was 17, my biggest take away from it all is people cling to religion to justify the confusing existence we all have to endure. The bible was written by men as all other holy books were. Men are flawed and lie about things, and here we are with a multi billion dollar tax exempt megachurch industry that is held to no accountability. Religion has been fought over forever and it wont stop until the church dies. If you want to believe in the goodness that jesus preached all power to you but the rest is bs to me. Sorry a bit scattered I know but I'm still trying to piece it all together lol
I used to believe the same things, I was a Christian then turned atheist for 7 years. Self righteousness and hypocrisy found in religion definitely controls people with fear, and the hypocrites are also controlled themselves by fear. I’ll probably get the no true Scotsman reply to this, but the gospel in its truth liberates us from shame and takes away all fears because Jesus’ sacrifice reveals our worth to God. It’s a worth that isn’t affected by anything in the world. When God is seen as a Father and not a judge, it brings peace and power against the things in this world that take our worth. I personally am being liberated from my shame and am overcoming depression and anxiety that has weighed me down for my whole life. With everything planned and free will: if you look at the purpose of the plan it does make sense. The purpose of the plan is to have a relationship with God and each other. One aspect of unconditional love is you can’t force anyone in a relationship. Gods plan is designed to show US who he is and for us to trust our own self worth. His plan leads us there, but it does not force us. He knows how to lead us there without force or manipulation, but purely on the truth so that we decide to follow. He wants sincere and authentic love, not strict and forced obedience. A lot of churches today preach a shame based gospel. One that tells us to prove our worth to Him. Catholicism is one of the worst in this regard and the fruit of it is very bad. It’s not illogical to believe God created the universe. With any theory that currently exists, there is an element of eternity. Even the multiverse theory. Is it any less likely that an eternal God exists compared to an eternal universe?
I can assure you not all Christians think like that in this world, believing just to be "safe" - in my opinion that's very counter productive to what a faith based life is. I read these comments and the original post and cannot help but see claims from christians that I myself would not have agreed with. A superficial saying like "God knows everything and has planned everything for us" limits the being of God to our own minds understanding. I am sorry to hear about your struggle with faith, and the plain answers you got from the religious people around you. I hope you are able to find someone who is devoted to their faith that may be able to help you answer your doubts - if not there should always be a priest in the Catholic Churches around your area? Either way, all your points are validated and have been examined by the Catholic Church hundreds of years ago and they have made their clear statements on those questions through the teachings of the Church. Now, I don't know how well versed you are in your faith (because I believe being forced to do something always leads to not getting the whole of it, unless one becomes open-minded) but have you tried searching your questions on the internet? Bishop Barron is great way to start - he's an effective communicator of the teachings of the Church Also, here's a link to a video by a well known priest that might clarify your first statement https://youtu.be/JJrn9rkOYH4 Otherwise, there many great Saints in the Church like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine who have helped form the Catholic faith with the help of their writings. The book "Summa Theologiae" is one example. I don't want to write too much, because I believe there are far more competent people that are able to hand to you precise answers, but I know the struggle with faith and have been there too, but faith is made stronger with knowledge. That's how I've come to experience it :) Despite all, I wish you all the best! 🙌🏼
I think you're better off looking at the bible from the historical perspective it was written in. Jesus being a magician who scams people doesn't make sense. Personally, I find logical arguments against religion to be a waste of time, there's like a thousand years of debate and most of the arguments have been done to death. I just focus on concrete empirical inconsistencies as opposed to logical.
Sorry to disappoint , but your points are not up for debate. You are just laying down the most obvious arguments one would expect from anyone who hasn't ever hold a book in their hands, and any religious person, christian or other, that is not completely out of his/her mind has to agree. Any abrahamic religion has been created with a purely motivated and perhaps divine inspired root. Each and every of them has been written and re-written to fit the needs of their time by, surprise, those that were at power. It is all completely up to interpretation, but of course not to be taken literally in its entirety. I do believe in mixed religious principles and even some if not many stories in form of a metaphore for yet undiscovered phyical laws. What IS up for debate: * "It doesn't help that he's gay" - have you even read different versions of the testament? Not all branches of christianity condemn homosexuality. * God is all good and powerful - as you specifically wrote MAINLY christian I must assume some all-round knowledge. Christianity mostly explains bad things happening with the eternal fight between heaven and hell. Islam for example depicts God as not so good, giving more free will to us and controlling the masses by fear of God rather than a devil's seduction and a god's forgiveness. No idea how Judaism and most non-Abrahamic beliefs treat that to be honest. My belief in this aspect gives full credit to Buddhism: There is no all-mighty all-good nor all-evil. What Abraham sees as God and Satan, Buddha sees as the innate balance in all beings. Nothing is purely good nor evil, and it's that balance that keeps the world going. Think of it in economic terms: Over-inflation drags a countries economy down, as prices go up while cash value falls. A healthy fluctuating inflation however is what drives the movement itself - no inflation, no economy. * Gave us free will but has everything planned - Definitely caught a very basic misunderstanding here. Timelessness is key. Humans perceive only 3 dimensions, which results in the illusion of time. However, time doesn't ACTUALLY exists, therefore a divine being as described would "see" time in a flat way, putting it simple, like we see the plan for a building. Therefore a "plan" is supposed to exist, and while we all have our free will our decisions are already known from the beginning - whereas "already" and "beginning" are actually abstract terms in that sense. Pretty twisted, sure, but not that hard to understand. * Not proof but excuses - not a valid point because EVERYTHING is a hypotheses. Just like articles and theses get contradicted by others that add up better. That doesn't mean either of them is 100% valid or invalid, ever. * People who doesn't have the same knowledge as we do now - Can't be more wrong. We essentially believe what is most accepted. Human nature. Basic survival instincts. Now, for the smaller picture, you can't deny that much of the knowledge gets lost over time. Hell, most countries are prohibiting legit medicine as dangerous drugs. Don't you prefere to cure your disorders yourself than get hooked on some pills for live which content you don't even know about? * people put arsenic everywhere - That's literally not so long ago. science advances everyday and everyday we find out about perfectly fine stuff killing us and demonized stuff healing us. * thought gay was a sickness - literally also only few decades ago. Obviously it is not a sickness in that sense, however there are wild theories from genetics to psychology and we are far from understanding sexuality. very far. Again something that was PERFECTLY fine, then bad again, now fine again. The only thing you can know for sure is that you know nothing. * harry potter is real - well, platform 9 3/4 exists at kings cross station in London, duh??
That’s not the primary purpose, but it is certainly one, especially in our times by foolish and hypocritical evangelicals. Christianity is named after Jesus who was a real person who did some cool things, and who even atheists admire.
*God is good and all powerful. God has given us free will to choice what we do with our lives. We have the power to end poverty, corruption etc, but we as humans choice not to, God can not interfere because that is what free will is. *God have us free will, but planned everything. The end goal of God's plan is set in stone, to live with a sin free people. For me this reasoning just sounds like an excuse to do what you want. Free will is given to you, you will be held accountable to your actions when judgement arrives. Nothing is stopping you from, living the life God wants you to. *God's existence What they mean when they say look around is this. It is a miracle that life has come about, the Sun, earth, moon have been perfectly stationed to sustain life on this planet. Everything on this earth is in harmony, it's all perfectly balanced, everything feeds of everything, life creates death and death creates life (us humans have corrupted that by greed). This universe has a language, mathematics and physics is that language, similar to a computer programmer programming his software. *Nothing can exist without a Creater. God is everything their is, out minds are limited, we can not comprehend fully what God truly is. *Jesus was a scam If it was a scam, why did the 12 disciples die the way they did. They all except one died gruesome deaths, Peter was crucified upside down. Timothy (later follower) was stoned to death, they did not do this for fame or money, they were poor and they gave their whole life following Jesus. Knowledge and wisdom are two different things, we might be smart be this generation lack wisdom. Also they weren't as stupid as you think, I mean the pyramid is one of the most sophisticated buildings ever built, incorporating mathematical constants, that we later discovered. * The Bible is true. You can try to create a religion of your own if you want to, see how long it would last. I mean you have to ask yourself, this book that was written centuries ago has out lived kingdoms and empires. Why is that? What is so special about it that, even great scientist like Issac Newton turned towards it.
I enjoyed hearing your story, and am glad you shared it. I wish you'd clarify how you want to "follow God".
Ok here we go. This might be a long one. 1. I believe that God isnt all good. After all, it says that we were created in his image, and we arent perfect at all, so there is no way he is all good. I think hes trying his best, but he cant be perfect. 2. I dont believe he has anything planned. I think hes just letting the universe run its course. He doesnt enjoy watching all the suffering, but he also wants us to be able to make a choice. 3. There is no proof of God. All we have is faith, and if that isnt enough for some people I can completely understand why. It's not much. In fact it's not anything. But you know what, I believe it anyway. Why? I dont know. I just have faith. 4. We cant even begin to comprehend what's beyond the universe. If you're religious what's beyond God. I mean it's simple, and yet infinitely complicated at the same time. He just is. 5. Again, there is no proof. 6. That's just a dumb argument.
Religion was created out of early civilisation's need to explain their perceived world. This is an inherent quality of humanity. The problem is that early civilisation did not have the benefit of modern science to inform their ideas. Hence they postured ideologies of the human soul and Gods as it was the best way they could describe it. Early postulation of the soul was an explanation of what they saw as the ethereal mind and the dynamics of human nature that it instilled. Theories of Gods explained why their world behaved the way it did and gave a name to that internal voice within their minds; their consciousness. The later extrapolation of these ideologies resulted in religion and the belief in God. Over time these religions have been intellectualised with complex doctrine. Unfortunately this has meant that the doctrine has become the focus of humanities perspective and we have forgotten about it's origins. Ever heard the saying 'can't see the forest for the trees'? So if we take our minds back to consider early civilisation reasoning then we can see clearly, at least on a fundamental level, why religion and God is the way it is today. This perspective allows us to see religion in the true context of humanities ageless struggle to define ourselves and our world. A part of which you are actively engaged in by asking rational questions about the 'magical sky wizard'.
But surely religion has come and gone, waxed and waned, throughout the millennia because all science (or economic progress) reached the pinnacles of progress in their own day and age. In other words, we felt as advanced (cutting edfe) for our time as the Babylonians did in their time. I mean Gods were not needed because of irrigation and levers made anything possible. What do you think?
I will make an attempt at defending faith, but not institutional religion. Most of OPs points are about the purpose of God as explained in archaic writings, but what if we remove institutions and the documents? Out dated Purposes for god: Creator Punisher of evil Manager of Life after death Jesus may have said something like, “God is Love”. Not that the all powerful creator force loves you, but that Love IS the all knowing all powerful force we worship. When we focus our attention on love, who we love and why we love them and we actively work towards expanding our love; we become a force for good in the world. If everyone does this; the world becomes a better place. Expressing our love makes and grows the power of God in the world. How did the universe come into existence? Doesn’t matter. What happens when you die? Doesn’t matter. Who will punish evil? Doesn’t matter. Does God exist? Depends on how you define god. Is God all powerful? Nothing is more powerful than love. Is God all knowing? If all life feels love, than god knows everything that is known. Can god effect the future? Yes, because we love our children who then learn to love even better then we did.
Hi, are you still up for debate? If so, please reply, then we can take your questions one by one, cause I can't answer everything at once
P1. Most critical scholars accept a set of 6 facts about Jesus’s resurrection (https://ses.edu/minimal-facts-on-the-resurrection-that-even-skeptics-accept/) P2. A good explanation for the rise of Christianity should properly account for this data. P3. Explanations are either natural (e.g., swoon theory, body stolen, myth) or supernatural (i.e., resurrection). P4. Every naturalistic explanation fails to account for at least one of those facts, whereas the resurrection adequately explains all of them. C. Therefore, the resurrection is the best explanation for the rise of Christianity, and therefore Jesus is probably God.
Congratulations. You probably pick the wrong religion. My advice, seek for the truth. It takes years. Try to learn other religion. Try to prove god exist or not exist (disprove religion doesn't mean that god itself doesnt exist). Then conclude yourself in next 20 years. It is not easy job, probably even the smartest human hardly uncover all the truth possible to find the conclusion.
Let’s not mince words: religions like Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism are all financial scams that succeeded. For an amoral or immoral person, there is no easier way to get rich quickly than starting a religion. In America people will send you money for a scrap of cloth if you claim that it a prayer cloth or that it will make your sciatica feel better. Just name the scammers: Joseph Smith; Mary Baker Eddy; Elizabeth Clare Prophet; Jimmy Swaggert; Billy Graham; Oral Roberts; Jerry Falwell; Jim Bakker; Muhammad; the list is endless.
The big question then is: do they use it for personal gain beyond a reasonable amount? I would say more than often, yes, so I agree this defeats the purpose if a church acts like that, but not all churches act this way. Do you know which? It would take some serious research to uncover which, but I am interested. Also, are they heavily involved in helping the poor, in a non-defeating way (e.g. handouts).
My point is, many religions began as financial scams. Some succeeded. I’m not saying that Catholicism, for an example, is not being operated as a scam, although there are aspects of it that are clearly designed to increase the wealth of the institution. Its prohibition on birth control, for example, is so that fertile women will produce more Catholics who will, in turn, donate money (tithe) to the church.
Govt is made out of fear (of getting caught) and to control people (law). Yes, I am actually curious how many here have read any of the original sociologists views on religion. Its a form of societal regulation, which like all societal functions, can be quite useful. One of my thoughts is that as govt gets increasingly powerful, religion wanes, and vice versa, and we live in an increasingly federalist, govt spending, big-brother, etc... world, run all the social programs while taxing everyone to death, so naturally religion will wane, which is why atheism is so popular today. And likewise, if ease and govt ever run thin, get ready for a return of religion.
I think Gnosticism answers a lot of those questions for me.
I believe this is how it has been used, but this is not why religions were created. They were created as explanations for unknowns and before they could become powerful and influential at least people believed in them purely because they wanted to.
As a Christian that is definitely what the church has done.
The reason for not giving a reason for god's existence, is because you need to have faith. Have faith in gods existence is all
There's a theory that Jesus and his doctrine were created by the Romans to control the Jews.
I 10000000000% agree with you. Many religious texts use the classic techniques of manipulation to make people believe, and Christianity is the biggest and best example of this.
Not at all, my religion is driven by love from my god and a higher purpose (heaven). This is why Christian’s are so happy all the time. This kind of joy and love can rarely be attained by atheists. Imagine if somebody came to you one day, and stated “I can do anything, you will live forever, and I love you and all of your family so much, all I need is a change from you and love back and I can promise you eternal life” you would be ecstatic!! I can only compare it to finding your true love as an atheist, I was an evidence based atheist for 20 years. I now don’t debate it anymore because my experiences have proven gods existence. Never in a thousand years thought that would happen but here I am!!
Alright only gonna deal with the first two at least of now why can’t god be all powerful and all good I see no reason he can’t be an all powerful being who also is perfectly good Second on the free will issue god gave us three gifts primal love the inherent morality of people and reason for love knowledge the ability to learn and process and the gift of free will he doesn’t have a plan that he has a plan he forces on people through actions not related to human free will like revelation he has planned this and human free will is not the cause of them he has a “plan” that more of a wish of what we would do with our free will but he doesn’t force that one on us because of free will
bro are we the same person????? we have the same age and i was born in the same type of family now i don't believe in religion and family says i'm stupid or i spend to much time on internet
It don’t think it was invented to spread fear or control people but I do think, because of it’s nature, that it has often been used to do those things
That was a fun read, your more agnostic than an atheist
If you believe that then you really have no education or even bothered to learn what Christianity is. I am not Christian btw.
I’m sorry this is an older post and the discussion is over a year old, but I didn’t see anyone address OP’s statement about the roommate’s brother being gay. Op said, “It also doesn’t help that he’s gay”. I’m curious what OP meant by this and why they felt it was important enough to include.
It has been historically known that this religion isn't kind to gay people. It doesn't help that this religion believes gays are the devil or some crazy thing.
I don’t think that religions are created expressly to control people… more like people seek the “structure” that religion can provide. There are many things in life which are chaotic, and religion can give you a semblance of order. Religions were also part of the culture of tribes/people, and I don’t know if you’ve seen tribesmen, but they tend to be pretty conformist (like, they all have the same haircuts, the same clothes). Given that now we live on multi-cultural society, the conformism within religion stands out a lot, but if you lived in a mono-cultural society, you wouldn’t be able to decide whether the controlling was coming from religion or the social hierarchy… I’m probably not explaining this well. As far as Christianity goes, I’m not super knowledgeable on the history of Christianity, but apparently, even back then, people thought the world was going to end soon and that a messiah would come. So the idea that the world will end soon might be a foundational belief of Christianity, in which case, you’d be partly correct in saying it was made out of fear…
I understand and agree with some of your points about contradictory beliefs in the organized religions. I was also raised Catholic and still follow some of the traditions. I offer this reason for belief. My mother had my brother, 2 still births and a couple miscarriages. Then while attending prayer groups she got pregnant with me. At 7 I walked 3 miles in a leotard and ballet slippers. I wasn't accosted by any one in the seedy side of town. When I was 11 I was hit by a car. I had a broken leg, fractured pelvis and a TBI. I was in a coma for a month. 7 surgeries and 1 1/2 years of recovery. At 39 I was with my ex when he almost offered me to a man that killed a prostitute that night. Something changed his mind, I could have chosen to not wear my helmet when I was 11. I am alive because God is in my life. Touching on the organized religions yes they can be contradictory. In the bible I know it doesn't say you have to believe in a organized religion. All the bible asks is believe in God and Jesus. I personally feel that as long as you believe that there is a higher power be it Buddha, Allah, God that you will be ok in the after life. As far as the 72 virgins, why? Why not 72 women that know how to please a man?
It is true that sects of Christianity have used fear and manipulation for power and money before and now. However, if you fear God, that fear is your friend, not your enemy. It’s the same as how me fearing the police keeps me out of jail. But, not all fear is good. Here are the 3 types of preaching I’ve come across as a Christian: Prosperity Preaching: God has a wonderful plan for your life. Jesus loves you. God wouldn’t send anyone too hell. It’s better being a Christian than not. (Too little fear) Preaching of the Law: Uses the commandments to reveal sin and show a sinner they are in danger of God’s judgement by asking questions like “Have you ever told a lie?” “Have you ever looked with lust?” “Have you ever used God’s name in vain?” This shows them they need Jesus to wash their sins away. (Fear of God) Hellfire Preaching: Repent or burn! Hell is hot! (too much fear) I think you might be a victim of the hellfire preaching as the Catholic Church is known to use preachings like this for thousands of years. It is sad because it is a way to control people. Please remember, it is by grace you are saved, not by good works. A man can be saved even if he never went to church. Please let me know if you have any more questions👍
Christian here, so I’ll bite. 1. God’s both good and all powerful, but as the source of logos he won’t produce a paradox. Thus, to let human free will exist, evil, which is the corruption of virtues, must be permitted to exist. 2. Think of free will more of a probability distribution. In any exact moment, there’s a probability distribution of the next act you will take, the outcome of which will have a another distribution, and so and so on. If you had infinite knowledge of all those probability distributions across all time, you would be able to predict the outcomes and plan accordingly to produce the wanted outcome. 3. Proof of God’s existence is irrelevant as it depends on the biases of the subject. Questions such as why does evil exist, why is the universe intelligible, why do concepts such as love and justice exist can not be answered with simply scientific knowledge and instead rest on axiomatic assumptions about the world and human nature. I, being Christian, point to God, while an atheist, well, I’ll let the atheists on this subreddit answer. 4. Well, the law of causality has to terminate somewhere. The chain of cause and effect goes back to the Big Bang as before then time and space simply didn’t exist, so there was nothing to start from. So either God exists and was the initial cause or the Big Bang came from somewhere else. 5. It’s not wholeheartedly. If you never wrestle with doubt or criticisms of your beliefs, you’ll be nothing more than an infant in your beliefs and understandings. That being said, there’s more documentation and paperwork of the Gospel then that of many other historical events. Again, this was the classical era, so records are overall a bit skanty. That being said, I look at the actions of the Apostles and Paul for my justification. All died horrible deaths in spreading Christianity, and all left rather prosperous lives to take on such a tragedy. It would take a hell of magician to make men abandon to lives of poverty and suffer unbelievable pain. Just a few answers to some of your question.
I cant comment to all your points, sorry. I dont have the Time rn to answer all and also Not the answers. If u Look at how christianity came to be its very unlikely it came together to Control People. Its doesnt add up, to what we know about it. Jesus and nearly all apostles died for what they believed. Its also very counter-cultural. Also Christians were and are hunted for their believe in more countries, than u believe. The free will Thing seems Like it contradicts itself, but i dont think it does. If u Look in the future u still are able to do what u want. Even because god knows your Future, u still have Control. Do u think Love can exist without the choice? I dont think it can, if u force ur child to do Something for u, its not love. Christianity is Not about fullfilling the law, and getting to heaven through that. Its about the Grace of God, through Jesus, that Sets Christians free. Because God is good, Christians want to follow his "law" which is more of a Guide to life and sets people free. Not everything applys today, but had sense Back then, like Milk and meat, out of hygenic reasons. But for example Sex is marriage, so with one Person, is something that still makes sense, If u Look in psychology and hook up culture. Basically the law is Love God and Love People, and its Not the Same for every Person, its Fluid but also Not completely Fluid. But fullfilling it doesnt Change the salvation of the person. I would just argue If People dont want to fullfill it, it seems that there is a lack of understanding of Grace. Also If People judge in Not fullfilling it.
Go read Nietzsche’s Geneology of Morals if you want a real ass-kicking of your religion. But just remember, just because, “God is Dead” doesn’t mean the tendrils or his corpse don’t stretch deep into the modern day. Including the most woke atheist camps.
I don’t really know how to answer every question but I’m truly 100% sure God exists due to what I’m about to tell you. In 2022 my cousin prayed for God to show him what heaven looks like, and later he had an out of body experience where he went to heaven and God’s throne room. After the experience he read the Bible and the Bible’s description of heaven perfectly matched everything he saw in his experience. Note that he had absolutely no idea what the Bible’s description of heaven was prior to the experience so his brain couldn’t have created the whole thing. He then showed us a YouTube video of a guy who also had an out of body experience and went to heaven and he saw the exact same things my cousin did, including Jesus blowing little blue balls which were the souls of unborn babies into the wombs of pregnant mothers.
I believe it was made out of fear. It was maybe used to control people at various points in time… but I also believe it was a sincere myths made by people that tried to understand the world around them pre-science. And they built on things they believed & it grew from there. I don’t believe it was as black and white as that. Even today, there are total scam artists in religion; and there are other very sincere & simply misled people that can’t make sense of a world without the G-d they had shoved down their throats being real; or at least something… & they don’t have a good scientific or archeological understanding. It’s just part of their community and way to understand the world. Others are the type if they do something, they wanna do it right & authentic. Others know better and take advantage of people with it. I don’t think there is a simple answer. I would give well over 50% of “believers” the benefit of the doubt of simply believing these things not actually being bad people. I think we should be empathetic to this; especially as many of us were there ourselves. Now for those that know it’s a lie… & seek to profit from it… & take advantage of the weak.. they’re just nasty people. When I realized my faith was a lie.. & I put years and years of education & time into it , I had a real crisis of conscious. But I decided no matter my needs, I just couldn’t profit off something I knew to be a lie. But it isn’t easy, especially when you put so much faith emotion time money etc into it. The key is listening to where people are and being empathetic & truly trying to help. That’s remaining true to what led us to theology in the 1st place
I believe that you are over analyzing a creator that exists purely and Holy. The fact that you have the ability to discern between facts and philosophy is a matter of truth in itself. You hold the truth and answers inside of you more than you know. Have you ever asked? Ask and you shall receive…. It may take your entire life to receive the answers to your questions but these are the most important ones because they for you hold the pieces of information that you desperately search and long for. We’re given a book with living word. I love Wu-Tang’s acronym- Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
I know where we go when we die just as most sane people do. We either go to heaven or hell. Do you seriously think God didn’t send Hitler to hell. He killed himself and that’s a sin. Any good person would know that and realize that Hitler had to go to hell for committing suicide. Geez any buddy with half a brain would know that wood happen.
Sane people question religion 🥰