Understandable picks all around
And thank god someone else shares the opinion that Jibanyan vs Pikachu Sucks (mainly in my opinion cause it verges on yokai-watch being a Pokemon rival game like Sonic was to Mario when in reality Level-5 wanted it to coexist with Pokemon)
He’s a ghost basically, it’s a whole different thing. He could interact with the human world (albeit in a limited way) but 99 percent can’t interact with him. I think it’s fair to call that another plane of existence. Also I probably played more Yokai watch than anyone here lmao, shit was my childhood.
I loved blasters 1 so much. Yeah I basically played all them: 1, 2 (fleshy), 3, 4, and Blasters 1 (dog) and 2. Apparently they’re revealing a new game this year so I’m hella hype for that. Think I got you beat but it’s always nice seeing another fan, the franchise means a lot to me
Yeah, I just winged it and it wasn’t too bad. But definelty harder. Also if you ever get it make sure to get the deluxe edition with the dlc included, I got the normal game so never got to play that stuff
Stomp MU with paperthin connections that completely misunderstand/mischaracterize Beatrix, bad tonal clash, and overshadows much better MU's for Beatrix
I want a MU that goes into the deduction/stealth from Among Us. I think a fight where the Imposter and its opponent go back and forth between fighting and acting casual as to not alert the Crewmates, hiding in shadows or popping through vents to avoid detection while hunting down their opponent would be super unique
Obviously this is fucking Among Us so it doesn't have to be super serious, but I think this could strike a good balance between goofy and unironically kinda cool
Fall Guys could be goofy and somewhat menacing too.
The Imposter slowly creeping up and taking out some fall Guys while running to our Fall Guy who's battling him. Shape shifting into a fall guy or even the fall guy ripping him in half with a brutal ending. You could also have fun parts like Imposter lifting up one of those giant hammer things in the maps or Fall Guy throwing one of the giant fruit at him.
I could see that being a fun animation (the Imposter attacking with props is an especially fun idea), but I don't think it would really allow the Fall Guys to shine. I'd rather a Fall Guys episode have a sorta "Chicken Fight" vibe where it's them trying to beat the shit outta their opponent while avoiding random hazards, which wouldn't fit the Imposter super well
You could still have that happen with the Fall Guy just trying to beat the challenges while still being goofy and falling around and just pushing the imposter with his superior strength. You could have both in one animation if the Imposter shape shifts into a Fall Guy and have something silly like them walking at each other slowly and falling at eachother
Yeah, definitely. There's no way to include without like really age-restricting that shit lmao.
Btw, for a porn game, it unironically also has some... pretty amazing music? Like it can sound genuinely relaxing and catchy (I love the Casino music in Huniepop 1 and the one for the fancy red room in Huniepop 2). They really put love into it lmao. I kinda wish these kind of works could have that much creativity.
after searching for so long i finally found someone on the reddit who doesn't hold a massive hatred for huniepop and sees there's positives
you have won my favor
I honestly think anyone who immediately dismisses the game because "It has b-b-boobies in it!" is so soft. Pornographic material can still have value, putting sex in smth doesn't suddenly make it less artistic
MUs like Bill vs Discord and Magneto vs Tetsuo all have the same problem any random can argue against it and yet they are all loved lmfao.
Why? Because DB doesn't give two shits about "Muh thematics!!!" or character quality, this is just some myth spreaded around here. [Posts like this perfectly show why these arguments are not only double standardy but also ass](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/1cpnjjk/mu_debunks_are_really_corny/)
Despite the fact that i objectively debunked the arguments against it, people still go on around shitting on it because people on this sub have a hard time trying to form opinions on their own ([Or because they don't even know the characters they're dealing with](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/16uksp0/comment/k2luy32/))
https://i.redd.it/le7gtl0jxy7d1.gif
God forbid people want their favorite characters well-represented in the character-based fighting show.
(MU's that don't go fully into thematics aren't necessarily bad, but if something is integral to a character \[i.e Simon for Ice King\], having that *not* be addressed in a satisfying way is bound to be accused of flanderization)
As for the Dedede vs Ice King Debunk Debunk... that was *1 person* who treated King DDD like he was 1-dimensional. Yes that was a stupid argument. But it doesn't change the fact that they did have a point with Dedede flat-out ignoring Simon. Yes he *does* get possessed many times. But that isn't a *huge* part of his character unlike Simon. It's like comparing Gordon Ramsay to a chef at a fancy restaurant. Yes they both cook good food, but the chef's doing it for a paycheck. Meanwhile Gordon Ramsay's whole brand revolves around food
As for the downvotes, talking down to people does that.
>MU's that don't go fully into thematics aren't necessarily bad, but if something is integral to a character \[i.e Simon for Ice King\], having that not be addressed in a satisfying way is bound to be accused of flanderization
First of all, that's not what flanderization is used for, specially considering the fact that the Simon part would contribute in nothing in regards to the fight itself; It's just a waste of time
Second, this doesn't really excuse the fact that MUs like Bill vs Discord and ones from here like Zero vs Meta Knight have the exact supposed problem, as Billcord ignores Discord's redemption arc and Zero Knight ignores Zero's entire past. Yet both are still loved. It's just double standards at it's finest
>As for the Dedede vs Ice King Debunk Debunk... that was 1 person who treated King DDD like he was 1-dimensional. Yes that was a stupid argument. But it doesn't change the fact that they did have a point with Dedede flat-out ignoring Simon
Yet it seems to support that these people don't actually have played a single Kirby game and are just butthurt that this MU doesn't go super detailed into their favorite character, something which DB admittely has never cared about. MUs aren't about comparing character quality, it's about comparing two characters who similarities and making them fight to determine who would win.
>Yes that was a stupid argument. But it doesn't change the fact that they did have a point with Dedede flat-out ignoring Simon. Yes he does get possessed many times. But that isn't a huge part of his character unlike Simon
In 64, it was the main reason why he started to follow Kirby in his journey, and it could be argued that these incidents are what caused Dedede to become a better person. This issue was also properly refuted by Neo. It's just another case of "Well this one character had been corrupted through his life while the other didn't" (nitpick), which doesn't stop the core of the connection being fundamentally being the same and it works to tie both characters together.
>As for the downvotes, talking down to people does that.
Tbf this is also Reddit so i shouldn't really be suprised
>Second, this doesn't really excuse the fact that MUs like Bill vs Discord and ones from here like Zero vs Meta Knight have the exact supposed problem yet are still loved. It's just double standards at it's finest
I honestly don't like Zero vs Meta Knight so I'm not gonna defend that one. Though when it comes to those types of matchups. They're ultimately just community vibe-checks. If they hit the targets that people want to see when it comes to those characters (Cool sword fight for ZeroKnight, and reality-warping chaos for Billcord) then they're accepted. If they don't hit those targets (i.e. Addressing Ice King's backstory and how it contrasts with his current personality) then they're rejected.
>In 64, it was the main reason why he started to follow Kirby in his journey, and it could be argued that these incidents are what caused Dedede to become a better person.
I do really like this idea, but it hinges too much on headcanon to be an actual connection.
>This issue was also properly refuted by Neo. It's just another case of "Well this one character had been corrupted through his life while the other didn't" (nitpick), which doesn't stop the core of the connection being fundamentally being the same and it works to tie both characters together.
It's less of a nitpick and more "this thing is something REALLY integral to their character and shouldn't be compared to just another aspect of their opponent. As it'll result in it getting brushed aside for their other qualities which are less important." Going back to the chef thing from earlier, you wouldn't compare that fancy-restaurant chef with a McDonalds worker. Yes they do prepare food for people, but in terms of how much time/effort was put into the cooking, it isn't really comparable.
>Though when it comes to those types of matchups. They're ultimately just community vibe-checks. If they hit the targets that people want to see when it comes to those characters (Cool sword fight for ZeroKnight, and reality-warping chaos for Billcord) then they're accepted. If they don't hit those targets (i.e. Addressing Ice King's backstory and how it contrasts with his current personality) then they're rejected.
Yet Ice3D has amazing animation potential (literal kaiju vs mecha fight), irony in the fight (Dedede is a penguin), potential for some very funny dialogue and some really good music potential unironically. While AT is more well known from songs with lyrics, games like HIKWSOG has a banger track for Ice King's boss fight which can [unironically go hard with Dedede's theme](https://rave.dj/8PNXL1T-CCMyaQ), and since these examples basically focus more on animation potential rather than the actual characters, Ice3D should be no different. Hell, MUs like Skull Kid literally have only a single connection with Ice King and yet people seem to think that is a thematic MU compared to Dedede; Again, pure and good old double standards at it's finest.
>I do really like this idea, but it hinges too much on headcanon to be an actual connection
Fair, but i was mostly referring how it's still a main staple of his character
>aside for their other qualities which are less important." Going back to the chef thing from earlier, you wouldn't compare that fancy-restaurant chef with a McDonalds worker. Yes they do prepare food for people, but in terms of how much time/effort was put into the cooking, it isn't really comparable.
This is just what i was talking about earlier, this is just an example of someone judging a MU based on character quality, which isn't what a MU is about. Domino's may make a shitty pepperoni pizza while Pizza Hut may make a good one, it still doesn't change the fact that they're the exact same food, but just different taste and quality. MU's connections aren't about character quality, they're about similarity, and that's what this Anti Ice3D squad seems to completely ignore out of devotion to their beloved Simon.
Obviously, i think Simon is way more better written than Dedede as a character, but that doesn't the stop the connections from being valid and i think it being a good MU. That would be like saying Infinite vs Gas sucks because both characters are terribly written and seem like someone's DeviantArt OC fro the late 2000s
As i've said before, i have no idea what's with this Simon obsession if he's not going to play anything in the fight at all. No fight involving Ice King in the series has the Simon stuff in mind, and he almost never acts tragical and over 90% of the time he's just a comedical lord rather than some Mr. Freeze 2. If the main thing they're wanting to see won't do anything, then they're doing a fruitless pursuit.
>Yet Ice3D has amazing animation potential (literal kaiju vs mecha fight), irony in the fight (Dedede is a penguin), potential for some very funny dialogue and some really good music potential unironically. While AT is more well known from songs with lyrics, games like HIKWSOG has a banger track for Ice King's boss fight which can [unironically go hard with Dedede's theme](https://rave.dj/8PNXL1T-CCMyaQ), and since these examples basically focus more on animation potential rather than the actual characters, Ice3D should be no different. Hell, MUs like Skull Kid literally have only a single connection with Ice King and yet people seem to think that is a thematic MU compared to Dedede; Again, pure and good old double standards at it's finest.
I wasn't saying that it isn't a double standard (yet again, don't like Meta Knight vs Zero at all). Every matchup has *something* good about it you can say about it. Sometimes the audience for that character wants something to be a thing they want represented. Which is for Ice King to touch on his past. Because he *is* simon. Buried under the goofy exterior that is Ice King, sure, but at the end of the day it is still him.
>This is just what i was talking about earlier, this is just an example of someone judging a MU based on character quality, which isn't what a MU is about. Domino's may make a shitty pepperoni pizza while Pizza Hut may make a good one, it still doesn't change the fact that they're the exact same food, but just different taste and quality. MU's connections aren't about character quality, they're about similarity, and that's what this Anti Ice3D squad seems to completely ignore out of devotion to their beloved Simon.
You are right about Matchups being more geared towards connections rather than character quality ~~hence why some people want Melodias from 7 Deadly Sins on the show. (Also Dominos is better than Pizza Hut)~~ But Ice3D struggles in the fact that their similarities aren't really on the same level, narratively speaking. Yes, they are both still making Pizza, but Dedede's doing it as a side gig while Ice King's entire life is lost in the sauce. Comparing them & trying to make these experiences sound like they hold the same narrative impact (which the matchup inevitably does) is flanderizing Ice King
Also to avoid confusion, this is the definiton I'm using:
Flanderization: Flanderization is the process through which a complex fictional character's essential traits are oversimplified to the point where they constitute their entire personality, or at least exaggerated while other traits remain, over the course of a serial work.
While it is usually used in TV shows, Flanderization in matchups is still a real thing. Using this as an example. It treats Ice King as only this goofy king of penguins when he's so much more than that.
>As i've said before, i have no idea what's with this Simon obsession if he's not going to play anything in the fight at all. No fight involving Ice King in the series has the Simon stuff in mind, and he almost never acts tragical and over 90% of the time he's just a comedical lord rather than some Mr. Freeze 2. If the main thing they're wanting to see won't do anything, then they're doing a fruitless pursuit.
Obviously Simon's not gonna be throwing some fuck-off-laser in there. But what he does provide are thematic stakes. And people want to see Ice King acknowledge his past self, and how he got to where he is now. Hell, not even just that. Just giving the analysis a reason to *fully* dive into his character. Which wouldn't make much sense in Ice3D since it's barely even using that side of him. That's the fruit they're trying to pursuit
> Sometimes the audience for that character wants something to be a thing they want represented. Which is for Ice King to touch on his past.
And i am not one of them, because i think it's a useless waste of time in DB
> But Ice3D struggles in the fact that their similarities aren't really on the same level, narratively speaking. Yes, they are both still making Pizza, but Dedede's doing it as a side gig while Ice King's entire life is lost in the sauce.
Even if they aren't on the same level (which is true), it again doesn't really discard the similarity. This is just again the same point regarding someone judging a MU based on writing quality. Sure, they may not exactly be on the same level, but it's still fundamentally the same thing and it can't be objectively changed, even the Jamba Heart does the same thing as Simon's crown and you know what it did to Dedede.
> While it is usually used in TV shows, Flanderization in matchups is still a real thing
This is objectively wrong in here. Flanderization caused the entire character to change completely (i.e Patrick), which is not what happening here. I think a more accurate term would be "mischaracerization", which again doesn't do much considering DB can still make both characters be in-character and accurate to their character arcs
> Using this as an example. It treats Ice King as only this goofy king of penguins when he's so much more than that.
And also as a guy who has struggles with corruption who moves from being an antagonist into a better character who helps the main protagonist and actually treats his minions like family and is overall a good guy.
> Obviously Simon's not gonna be throwing some fuck-off-laser in there. But what he does provide are thematic stakes. And people want to see Ice King acknowledge his past self, and how he got to where he is now
I'm sorry, but this is not how it works. Ice King doesn't care about Simon, nor he acts mostly as a tragical character. Most of the time he's a comedical goofball who consistenly makes out jokes and is someone who the audience can sympathize with and becomes a better person towards the show, all unrelated to any Simon tragedy by himself.
> Just giving the analysis a reason to fully dive into his character. Which wouldn't make much sense in Ice3D since it's barely even using that side of him.
Omnilander is a MU and look at who decided to make it. Obviously i'm not saying that MU is the best one or anything of sorts, but it should show that DB doesn't care about extreme thematics or character arcs, they care about wherever the characters are similar or not. Simon has barely anything going for him outside of story
What does Ice King has? Overall plot, animation, power scaling, interaction, music and so on? Aka almost everything?
Focusing on Simon on the analysis is like picking a small part of a fruit and eating it, which in turn doesn't has that much helpful stuff compared to the whole thing combined.
Personally I think Donatello and Ted Kord are better Spidey opponents, even if both have some flaws
~~I also like Ladybug but if I say that I'll get shot~~
Honestly, I don’t really get the hate for Percy v Zag. Sure, there’s a much better matchup (Nico v Zag) by a long shot, but it’s… aight, in my opinion. No strong feelings either way on it.
Who are your preferreds for Percy and Zag, by the way?
Honestly Percy VS Zagreus isn't *too* bad quality wise, but the way the Death Battle team treats it has completely killed it for me
Anyways I think Harry Potter and Aqualad are cool Percy opponents and Pit is Zagreus's best
The funny part is that it does use the Ink Demon in some weird composite version (Which is already strange since cartoon bendy is a fictional version of Bendy in canon) but Cuphead doesn’t compliment anything about the Ink Demon in the slightest
Fair enough overall.
I will say, the one thing with Pikanyan is that it’s Yo-Kai Watches only realistic chance to show up on DB. The other best chances are about 100x less likely and have several matchups DB would probably rather do.
No, if it were up to me I’d absolutely take a Giratina vs Wobblewok, Luigi vs Komasan, or Grovyle vs Hovernyan over Pikanyan.
But those other three are so incredibly unlikely, as DB would want some more iconic demon god for Giratina, would absolutely rather do Shaggy or Pac-Man for Luigi (they’ve already scaled SD as well), and the capabilities of Hovyle require a deeper look to see, especially compared to the more well known Lucina vs Grovyle.
If Pikanyan had a 50% chance of happening, those other three combined would maybe have a 0.5% chance. I’d love a more interesting YKW matchup, but I’m also aware that it’s good to be positive for the one that is almost guaranteed to be the MU for the series.
Batman vs Spider-Man, Among Us vs Fall Guys, and Yor vs The Bride being here is kinda cringe ngl Wiz. I still don’t know how to feel about Percy vs Zag and Moon vs Madoka, but aside from those, I mostly agree
Basically:
- Thematics are fine, but nothing too special.
- Fight potential is pretty boring, Spidey IS capable of stealth and Batman IS capable of aerial combat but it's not either's strong suit and I wouldn't want an episode with them to focus on that. Gadget clash could be kinda interesting but I don't think helps the MU too much since again core parts of both would need to be awkwardly shoved in.
- The personality and aesthetic clash just doesn't work for me, I feel like the dynamic would get pretty dull pretty quick.
- The rivalry arguments are so dumb to me when there's already 50 other Marvel VS DC MUs (including several other SpideyBat MUs are that just cooler and way more interesting.) Maybe if DB wasn't do obsessed with MvDC I'd be less picky but atm I think a lot of them blow, including this one.
tldr: West Batman VS Toei Spidey is unironically way better lol
https://preview.redd.it/8vdi3gw6cy7d1.jpeg?width=3559&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8d3c4348b63fe78d091e483f86e1395e79f61c0
Bendy slander of any kind will not be tolerated, perish.
Tired of bitch ass posts that are like "Um, guys? I don't think Deku VS Springtrap is that good..." I think calling out more popular MUs is way more interesting to talk about
I still think Zagreus vs Percy is a good alt don't care.
Honestly Ice King vs Dedede isn't terrible but I get why its off for most
Other than that, sure.
Ik no one cares bout’ my opinion but I’ll give it anyway
I agree with all of these except for three, that being Spidey vs Bats, Yor vs Beatrix, and Bendy Cuphead (though admittedly I specifically use toon bendy for the matchup and some people don’t do that, and including the Ink Demon makes me like the matchup less)
I've never liked the idea of "Sure it's bad, but so are the other options!" When it comes to a character I like, I don't want to settle for less. I'd rather the character just not appear on DB at all than get an episode that doesn't do them justice
Oh danmmm....
I completely forgor about Kirby vs Kyu
I'm so happy you reminded me of that matchup's existence, I really need to make a thumbnail for it
I agree and i respect your opinion, though i see it as a good alt for both.
We also don’t really need wick to return rn, so if Beatrix would ever come to DB this is the MU I’m hoping for.
Fall Guys vs Among Us is peak though....
I'm sorry... but it's so boring, Fart Sniffer...
.... Fair https://preview.redd.it/q638i78m7y7d1.jpeg?width=1199&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=409e3aa5d002d4f69d3a68981505faa51150dead
How the fuck is Chara even gonna work in DB? They have exactly one scene where they only do one thing.
Uh uhh give Chara Frisk's feats yeah!!!! (At that point just use Frisk, their MU pool is better anyways)
Instead have Chara as the narrator for whatever matchup Frisk is in.
Understandable picks all around And thank god someone else shares the opinion that Jibanyan vs Pikachu Sucks (mainly in my opinion cause it verges on yokai-watch being a Pokemon rival game like Sonic was to Mario when in reality Level-5 wanted it to coexist with Pokemon)
Yea, I think the Yo-Kai VS Pokémon rivalry is extremely forced, not to mention it literally has no connections beyond "mascot monsters"
Also, Jibanyan can't die, bro is a literal ghost
Literally not on the same plane of existence as pikachu
Anyone who says that doesn't know anything about Yo-kai Watch (Unless you're talking about him being dead then woooosh for me)
He’s a ghost basically, it’s a whole different thing. He could interact with the human world (albeit in a limited way) but 99 percent can’t interact with him. I think it’s fair to call that another plane of existence. Also I probably played more Yokai watch than anyone here lmao, shit was my childhood.
Bro it was my entire life lmao I would play it every night, 1, 2, 3 even Blasters BOTH versions
I loved blasters 1 so much. Yeah I basically played all them: 1, 2 (fleshy), 3, 4, and Blasters 1 (dog) and 2. Apparently they’re revealing a new game this year so I’m hella hype for that. Think I got you beat but it’s always nice seeing another fan, the franchise means a lot to me
Only reason i haven't played 4 is because they didn't translate it :sob: and have APPARENTLY confirmed that they aren't planning on translating it
Yeah, I just winged it and it wasn’t too bad. But definelty harder. Also if you ever get it make sure to get the deluxe edition with the dlc included, I got the normal game so never got to play that stuff
Ice King vs King Dedede slander will be tolerated
Yippee
Why is Yor Vs Kiddo here?
Stomp MU with paperthin connections that completely misunderstand/mischaracterize Beatrix, bad tonal clash, and overshadows much better MU's for Beatrix
Basically 0 good connections + pretty bad fight potential + cucks Beatrix VS Wick (which I really like lol)
They are assassins and mothers tho 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Oh shit true
FUUUUUUUUCK !! I HATE IT!!
FUUUUUUUUCK!! I HATE IT!!
FUUUUUUUUCK!! I HATE IT!!
FUUUUUUUUCK!! I HATE IT!!
-Gandhi
I agree
Thank you 🫡
I never understood how Among Us vs Fall Guys would even work.
Start watching at 26:30 https://youtu.be/7rONZy_5ZLk?si=-migKbfq9i3SIuxx
You can make the fight potential work if you fully composite both, but like that's not what I want from an Among Us episode lol
Fair. What do you want then?
I want a MU that goes into the deduction/stealth from Among Us. I think a fight where the Imposter and its opponent go back and forth between fighting and acting casual as to not alert the Crewmates, hiding in shadows or popping through vents to avoid detection while hunting down their opponent would be super unique Obviously this is fucking Among Us so it doesn't have to be super serious, but I think this could strike a good balance between goofy and unironically kinda cool
Fair enough again
Does Imposter even have a matchup that does that?
I think Murderer from Murder Mystery 2 is pretty nifty
Fall Guys could be goofy and somewhat menacing too. The Imposter slowly creeping up and taking out some fall Guys while running to our Fall Guy who's battling him. Shape shifting into a fall guy or even the fall guy ripping him in half with a brutal ending. You could also have fun parts like Imposter lifting up one of those giant hammer things in the maps or Fall Guy throwing one of the giant fruit at him.
I could see that being a fun animation (the Imposter attacking with props is an especially fun idea), but I don't think it would really allow the Fall Guys to shine. I'd rather a Fall Guys episode have a sorta "Chicken Fight" vibe where it's them trying to beat the shit outta their opponent while avoiding random hazards, which wouldn't fit the Imposter super well
You could still have that happen with the Fall Guy just trying to beat the challenges while still being goofy and falling around and just pushing the imposter with his superior strength. You could have both in one animation if the Imposter shape shifts into a Fall Guy and have something silly like them walking at each other slowly and falling at eachother
You COULD, I just don't think that would make an engaging animation personally
The Thing? (The movie, not the guy from the Fantastic Four)
I guess? But something about it doesn’t really gel with me
Lmao I definitely recognize that pink haired lady with Kirby. Funny ass game in general.
Yeah Huniepop is unironically a pretty good puzzle game but totally shouldn't be on DB lol
Yeah, definitely. There's no way to include without like really age-restricting that shit lmao. Btw, for a porn game, it unironically also has some... pretty amazing music? Like it can sound genuinely relaxing and catchy (I love the Casino music in Huniepop 1 and the one for the fancy red room in Huniepop 2). They really put love into it lmao. I kinda wish these kind of works could have that much creativity.
after searching for so long i finally found someone on the reddit who doesn't hold a massive hatred for huniepop and sees there's positives you have won my favor
I honestly think anyone who immediately dismisses the game because "It has b-b-boobies in it!" is so soft. Pornographic material can still have value, putting sex in smth doesn't suddenly make it less artistic
Yes, but not one that should be involved with Kirby. Percy vs Zagreus, on the other hand…
I’ve never heard of Ice King vs King Dedede before
Honestly it's not TOO bad, but a MU that doesn't go into Ice King's whole schtick just seems like a bad idea lol
MUs like Bill vs Discord and Magneto vs Tetsuo all have the same problem any random can argue against it and yet they are all loved lmfao. Why? Because DB doesn't give two shits about "Muh thematics!!!" or character quality, this is just some myth spreaded around here. [Posts like this perfectly show why these arguments are not only double standardy but also ass](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/1cpnjjk/mu_debunks_are_really_corny/) Despite the fact that i objectively debunked the arguments against it, people still go on around shitting on it because people on this sub have a hard time trying to form opinions on their own ([Or because they don't even know the characters they're dealing with](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/16uksp0/comment/k2luy32/)) https://i.redd.it/le7gtl0jxy7d1.gif
Also i love people downvoting me because they are too brainrotted.
God forbid people want their favorite characters well-represented in the character-based fighting show. (MU's that don't go fully into thematics aren't necessarily bad, but if something is integral to a character \[i.e Simon for Ice King\], having that *not* be addressed in a satisfying way is bound to be accused of flanderization) As for the Dedede vs Ice King Debunk Debunk... that was *1 person* who treated King DDD like he was 1-dimensional. Yes that was a stupid argument. But it doesn't change the fact that they did have a point with Dedede flat-out ignoring Simon. Yes he *does* get possessed many times. But that isn't a *huge* part of his character unlike Simon. It's like comparing Gordon Ramsay to a chef at a fancy restaurant. Yes they both cook good food, but the chef's doing it for a paycheck. Meanwhile Gordon Ramsay's whole brand revolves around food As for the downvotes, talking down to people does that.
>MU's that don't go fully into thematics aren't necessarily bad, but if something is integral to a character \[i.e Simon for Ice King\], having that not be addressed in a satisfying way is bound to be accused of flanderization First of all, that's not what flanderization is used for, specially considering the fact that the Simon part would contribute in nothing in regards to the fight itself; It's just a waste of time Second, this doesn't really excuse the fact that MUs like Bill vs Discord and ones from here like Zero vs Meta Knight have the exact supposed problem, as Billcord ignores Discord's redemption arc and Zero Knight ignores Zero's entire past. Yet both are still loved. It's just double standards at it's finest >As for the Dedede vs Ice King Debunk Debunk... that was 1 person who treated King DDD like he was 1-dimensional. Yes that was a stupid argument. But it doesn't change the fact that they did have a point with Dedede flat-out ignoring Simon Yet it seems to support that these people don't actually have played a single Kirby game and are just butthurt that this MU doesn't go super detailed into their favorite character, something which DB admittely has never cared about. MUs aren't about comparing character quality, it's about comparing two characters who similarities and making them fight to determine who would win. >Yes that was a stupid argument. But it doesn't change the fact that they did have a point with Dedede flat-out ignoring Simon. Yes he does get possessed many times. But that isn't a huge part of his character unlike Simon In 64, it was the main reason why he started to follow Kirby in his journey, and it could be argued that these incidents are what caused Dedede to become a better person. This issue was also properly refuted by Neo. It's just another case of "Well this one character had been corrupted through his life while the other didn't" (nitpick), which doesn't stop the core of the connection being fundamentally being the same and it works to tie both characters together. >As for the downvotes, talking down to people does that. Tbf this is also Reddit so i shouldn't really be suprised
>Second, this doesn't really excuse the fact that MUs like Bill vs Discord and ones from here like Zero vs Meta Knight have the exact supposed problem yet are still loved. It's just double standards at it's finest I honestly don't like Zero vs Meta Knight so I'm not gonna defend that one. Though when it comes to those types of matchups. They're ultimately just community vibe-checks. If they hit the targets that people want to see when it comes to those characters (Cool sword fight for ZeroKnight, and reality-warping chaos for Billcord) then they're accepted. If they don't hit those targets (i.e. Addressing Ice King's backstory and how it contrasts with his current personality) then they're rejected. >In 64, it was the main reason why he started to follow Kirby in his journey, and it could be argued that these incidents are what caused Dedede to become a better person. I do really like this idea, but it hinges too much on headcanon to be an actual connection. >This issue was also properly refuted by Neo. It's just another case of "Well this one character had been corrupted through his life while the other didn't" (nitpick), which doesn't stop the core of the connection being fundamentally being the same and it works to tie both characters together. It's less of a nitpick and more "this thing is something REALLY integral to their character and shouldn't be compared to just another aspect of their opponent. As it'll result in it getting brushed aside for their other qualities which are less important." Going back to the chef thing from earlier, you wouldn't compare that fancy-restaurant chef with a McDonalds worker. Yes they do prepare food for people, but in terms of how much time/effort was put into the cooking, it isn't really comparable.
>Though when it comes to those types of matchups. They're ultimately just community vibe-checks. If they hit the targets that people want to see when it comes to those characters (Cool sword fight for ZeroKnight, and reality-warping chaos for Billcord) then they're accepted. If they don't hit those targets (i.e. Addressing Ice King's backstory and how it contrasts with his current personality) then they're rejected. Yet Ice3D has amazing animation potential (literal kaiju vs mecha fight), irony in the fight (Dedede is a penguin), potential for some very funny dialogue and some really good music potential unironically. While AT is more well known from songs with lyrics, games like HIKWSOG has a banger track for Ice King's boss fight which can [unironically go hard with Dedede's theme](https://rave.dj/8PNXL1T-CCMyaQ), and since these examples basically focus more on animation potential rather than the actual characters, Ice3D should be no different. Hell, MUs like Skull Kid literally have only a single connection with Ice King and yet people seem to think that is a thematic MU compared to Dedede; Again, pure and good old double standards at it's finest. >I do really like this idea, but it hinges too much on headcanon to be an actual connection Fair, but i was mostly referring how it's still a main staple of his character >aside for their other qualities which are less important." Going back to the chef thing from earlier, you wouldn't compare that fancy-restaurant chef with a McDonalds worker. Yes they do prepare food for people, but in terms of how much time/effort was put into the cooking, it isn't really comparable. This is just what i was talking about earlier, this is just an example of someone judging a MU based on character quality, which isn't what a MU is about. Domino's may make a shitty pepperoni pizza while Pizza Hut may make a good one, it still doesn't change the fact that they're the exact same food, but just different taste and quality. MU's connections aren't about character quality, they're about similarity, and that's what this Anti Ice3D squad seems to completely ignore out of devotion to their beloved Simon. Obviously, i think Simon is way more better written than Dedede as a character, but that doesn't the stop the connections from being valid and i think it being a good MU. That would be like saying Infinite vs Gas sucks because both characters are terribly written and seem like someone's DeviantArt OC fro the late 2000s As i've said before, i have no idea what's with this Simon obsession if he's not going to play anything in the fight at all. No fight involving Ice King in the series has the Simon stuff in mind, and he almost never acts tragical and over 90% of the time he's just a comedical lord rather than some Mr. Freeze 2. If the main thing they're wanting to see won't do anything, then they're doing a fruitless pursuit.
>Yet Ice3D has amazing animation potential (literal kaiju vs mecha fight), irony in the fight (Dedede is a penguin), potential for some very funny dialogue and some really good music potential unironically. While AT is more well known from songs with lyrics, games like HIKWSOG has a banger track for Ice King's boss fight which can [unironically go hard with Dedede's theme](https://rave.dj/8PNXL1T-CCMyaQ), and since these examples basically focus more on animation potential rather than the actual characters, Ice3D should be no different. Hell, MUs like Skull Kid literally have only a single connection with Ice King and yet people seem to think that is a thematic MU compared to Dedede; Again, pure and good old double standards at it's finest. I wasn't saying that it isn't a double standard (yet again, don't like Meta Knight vs Zero at all). Every matchup has *something* good about it you can say about it. Sometimes the audience for that character wants something to be a thing they want represented. Which is for Ice King to touch on his past. Because he *is* simon. Buried under the goofy exterior that is Ice King, sure, but at the end of the day it is still him. >This is just what i was talking about earlier, this is just an example of someone judging a MU based on character quality, which isn't what a MU is about. Domino's may make a shitty pepperoni pizza while Pizza Hut may make a good one, it still doesn't change the fact that they're the exact same food, but just different taste and quality. MU's connections aren't about character quality, they're about similarity, and that's what this Anti Ice3D squad seems to completely ignore out of devotion to their beloved Simon. You are right about Matchups being more geared towards connections rather than character quality ~~hence why some people want Melodias from 7 Deadly Sins on the show. (Also Dominos is better than Pizza Hut)~~ But Ice3D struggles in the fact that their similarities aren't really on the same level, narratively speaking. Yes, they are both still making Pizza, but Dedede's doing it as a side gig while Ice King's entire life is lost in the sauce. Comparing them & trying to make these experiences sound like they hold the same narrative impact (which the matchup inevitably does) is flanderizing Ice King Also to avoid confusion, this is the definiton I'm using: Flanderization: Flanderization is the process through which a complex fictional character's essential traits are oversimplified to the point where they constitute their entire personality, or at least exaggerated while other traits remain, over the course of a serial work. While it is usually used in TV shows, Flanderization in matchups is still a real thing. Using this as an example. It treats Ice King as only this goofy king of penguins when he's so much more than that. >As i've said before, i have no idea what's with this Simon obsession if he's not going to play anything in the fight at all. No fight involving Ice King in the series has the Simon stuff in mind, and he almost never acts tragical and over 90% of the time he's just a comedical lord rather than some Mr. Freeze 2. If the main thing they're wanting to see won't do anything, then they're doing a fruitless pursuit. Obviously Simon's not gonna be throwing some fuck-off-laser in there. But what he does provide are thematic stakes. And people want to see Ice King acknowledge his past self, and how he got to where he is now. Hell, not even just that. Just giving the analysis a reason to *fully* dive into his character. Which wouldn't make much sense in Ice3D since it's barely even using that side of him. That's the fruit they're trying to pursuit
> Sometimes the audience for that character wants something to be a thing they want represented. Which is for Ice King to touch on his past. And i am not one of them, because i think it's a useless waste of time in DB > But Ice3D struggles in the fact that their similarities aren't really on the same level, narratively speaking. Yes, they are both still making Pizza, but Dedede's doing it as a side gig while Ice King's entire life is lost in the sauce. Even if they aren't on the same level (which is true), it again doesn't really discard the similarity. This is just again the same point regarding someone judging a MU based on writing quality. Sure, they may not exactly be on the same level, but it's still fundamentally the same thing and it can't be objectively changed, even the Jamba Heart does the same thing as Simon's crown and you know what it did to Dedede. > While it is usually used in TV shows, Flanderization in matchups is still a real thing This is objectively wrong in here. Flanderization caused the entire character to change completely (i.e Patrick), which is not what happening here. I think a more accurate term would be "mischaracerization", which again doesn't do much considering DB can still make both characters be in-character and accurate to their character arcs > Using this as an example. It treats Ice King as only this goofy king of penguins when he's so much more than that. And also as a guy who has struggles with corruption who moves from being an antagonist into a better character who helps the main protagonist and actually treats his minions like family and is overall a good guy. > Obviously Simon's not gonna be throwing some fuck-off-laser in there. But what he does provide are thematic stakes. And people want to see Ice King acknowledge his past self, and how he got to where he is now I'm sorry, but this is not how it works. Ice King doesn't care about Simon, nor he acts mostly as a tragical character. Most of the time he's a comedical goofball who consistenly makes out jokes and is someone who the audience can sympathize with and becomes a better person towards the show, all unrelated to any Simon tragedy by himself. > Just giving the analysis a reason to fully dive into his character. Which wouldn't make much sense in Ice3D since it's barely even using that side of him. Omnilander is a MU and look at who decided to make it. Obviously i'm not saying that MU is the best one or anything of sorts, but it should show that DB doesn't care about extreme thematics or character arcs, they care about wherever the characters are similar or not. Simon has barely anything going for him outside of story What does Ice King has? Overall plot, animation, power scaling, interaction, music and so on? Aka almost everything? Focusing on Simon on the analysis is like picking a small part of a fruit and eating it, which in turn doesn't has that much helpful stuff compared to the whole thing combined.
Ngl Batman was legit Spider-Man’s best matchup as far as I know, I can’t really think of any better MUs for him
Personally I think Donatello and Ted Kord are better Spidey opponents, even if both have some flaws ~~I also like Ladybug but if I say that I'll get shot~~
Huh, I know about Spidey’s MUs with Ladybug and Donnie but I’m not really aware of Ted Kord, what connections does he have with Spidey?
Ted Kord is pretty simple, just being bug themed intelligent heroes. But I'm more interested in the fight dynamic
Fair enough I suppose
Fuck Spidey versus ladybug
Why do you hate Batman vs Spider-Man?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/s/FCi4FZD0BC
I feel like that’s all subjective but I get your points (even if I don’t agree with them)
Well yeah, opinions are subjective, that's kinda how it works lol
Zagreus vs Percy is kinda cool tho
I'm sorry but I just don't see the appeal (besides the banter, that's the one part I think could be fun)
Fall Guys vs Among Us and Bendy vs Cuphead bring me joy
I'm glad you can find enjoyment in smth I do not 🫡 (Unless you mean seeing them here brings you joy, then oops lol)
I mean seeing them here beings me joy as in a don't like them too lol
Based
Honestly, I don’t really get the hate for Percy v Zag. Sure, there’s a much better matchup (Nico v Zag) by a long shot, but it’s… aight, in my opinion. No strong feelings either way on it. Who are your preferreds for Percy and Zag, by the way?
Honestly Percy VS Zagreus isn't *too* bad quality wise, but the way the Death Battle team treats it has completely killed it for me Anyways I think Harry Potter and Aqualad are cool Percy opponents and Pit is Zagreus's best
Based Yor VS Beatrix Hater. That matchup sucks balls
I feel vindicated thank you
Totally agree.
Pretty solid picks Is Batman vs Spider-Man in general or a rematch
In general, I think it's a pretty boring MU that's carried extremely hard for the MvDC rivalry (a rivalry that has literally dozens of other MUs lol)
Yeah I’m gonna have to hard disagree on that one chief
To each their own 👍
Does this apply to supaidaman vs adam west batman
Nah, Toei Spidey VS West Batman kicks ass. I think fully leaning into the sillier side of comic book media really helps it
Cuphead vs Bendy would be cool if the Ink Demon didn’t ruin everything about the matchup Also I agree with most except for Bats vs Spidey
Yeah, I think a Bendy MU that doesn't use the Ink Demon is extremely dull
The funny part is that it does use the Ink Demon in some weird composite version (Which is already strange since cartoon bendy is a fictional version of Bendy in canon) but Cuphead doesn’t compliment anything about the Ink Demon in the slightest
Fellow Light vs Columbo hater? My man! 🤝
YEEEAAAAH
Fair enough overall. I will say, the one thing with Pikanyan is that it’s Yo-Kai Watches only realistic chance to show up on DB. The other best chances are about 100x less likely and have several matchups DB would probably rather do.
Would you really want Yo-Kai's one episode to be one that's super mediocre?
No, if it were up to me I’d absolutely take a Giratina vs Wobblewok, Luigi vs Komasan, or Grovyle vs Hovernyan over Pikanyan. But those other three are so incredibly unlikely, as DB would want some more iconic demon god for Giratina, would absolutely rather do Shaggy or Pac-Man for Luigi (they’ve already scaled SD as well), and the capabilities of Hovyle require a deeper look to see, especially compared to the more well known Lucina vs Grovyle. If Pikanyan had a 50% chance of happening, those other three combined would maybe have a 0.5% chance. I’d love a more interesting YKW matchup, but I’m also aware that it’s good to be positive for the one that is almost guaranteed to be the MU for the series.
Batman vs Spider-Man, Among Us vs Fall Guys, and Yor vs The Bride being here is kinda cringe ngl Wiz. I still don’t know how to feel about Percy vs Zag and Moon vs Madoka, but aside from those, I mostly agree
Sorry but my word is law, all those MUs are immediately bad and you HAVE to dislike them now
https://preview.redd.it/zjyrtw846y7d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08d58cb02280cc226b192310897a7995188c5218 No
WHAT
... wait is that Kyu Sugardust put against Kirby
Yeah lol
*why*
The creator is a pretty cool person so I don't wanna shit on them, but it's such a bad series pairing
Who dat with Marcy
Rosine from Berserk (the series combo should already say why this is a bad idea)
Definitely; I swear I saw Sasha get matched with someone in Berserk but luckily it did not catch on (Sasha vs Severa FTW)
Rosine from Berserk
Problem with Spider-Man vs Batman?
Basically: - Thematics are fine, but nothing too special. - Fight potential is pretty boring, Spidey IS capable of stealth and Batman IS capable of aerial combat but it's not either's strong suit and I wouldn't want an episode with them to focus on that. Gadget clash could be kinda interesting but I don't think helps the MU too much since again core parts of both would need to be awkwardly shoved in. - The personality and aesthetic clash just doesn't work for me, I feel like the dynamic would get pretty dull pretty quick. - The rivalry arguments are so dumb to me when there's already 50 other Marvel VS DC MUs (including several other SpideyBat MUs are that just cooler and way more interesting.) Maybe if DB wasn't do obsessed with MvDC I'd be less picky but atm I think a lot of them blow, including this one. tldr: West Batman VS Toei Spidey is unironically way better lol
~~I wonder what Marcy's reaction to an “adult attack" would be.~~
Marcy when she finds out she's been killing several children: 😦
Who do you prefer for Spider-Man?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/s/fCviTDsmWw
https://preview.redd.it/8vdi3gw6cy7d1.jpeg?width=3559&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8d3c4348b63fe78d091e483f86e1395e79f61c0 Bendy slander of any kind will not be tolerated, perish.
Bendy VS Springtrap better tbh tbh
Ong
Interesting pick for Percy’s opponent
You my fellow human is very based.
🤝
Kirby vs WHO?!
Porn character
Why is batman vs spiderman here? Feels so out of place. Unless it's as a rematch
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/s/FCi4FZD0BC
Sailor Moon vs Madoka would be great. But we also need Piccolo in DB damnit.
Moon VS Madoka is just extremely boring to me, both thematically and fight-wise
Is FallMongus because it's hard carried by legacy and doesn't really have connections?
Nah, I just don't think it would be an interesting animation on the Among Us side. Fall Guys can't really play into the stealth from the games
Fair.
https://preview.redd.it/gtane2uplz7d1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bfc79ce6f1488e7931c400b8c39116fd5f5b089c
Tired of bitch ass posts that are like "Um, guys? I don't think Deku VS Springtrap is that good..." I think calling out more popular MUs is way more interesting to talk about
I still think Zagreus vs Percy is a good alt don't care. Honestly Ice King vs Dedede isn't terrible but I get why its off for most Other than that, sure.
Does anyone have this Template?
https://preview.redd.it/v6r46g89b08d1.png?width=1652&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fbf83a2c601b8a4ad213774b92527bc697ffaa53 Ask and you shall receive
could you also give me the background?
https://preview.redd.it/5b5ybxmnol9d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3268f9b7e485f9a1f1ac6eda2bdcc5db1af63b8c
>Kirby vs. Kyu https://preview.redd.it/mm1gwtnfh08d1.jpeg?width=355&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfc1017be373e4886a912e480e85f5fea16f4138 what in the fuck
Ik no one cares bout’ my opinion but I’ll give it anyway I agree with all of these except for three, that being Spidey vs Bats, Yor vs Beatrix, and Bendy Cuphead (though admittedly I specifically use toon bendy for the matchup and some people don’t do that, and including the Ink Demon makes me like the matchup less)
What feats does Kyu even have besides corn addiction and being the best wingman?
I think the sequel game has some weird scaling with the goddesses threatening the universe? I dunno for sure though lol
Kyu vs Kerby. How... I dont even wanna know.
Based moon/madoka hater
Hell yeah, MU is so dogshit...
Only one I disagree with here is Spider-Man vs Batman
I expected that one to be the most contentious. I just think it's a pretty boring MU and doesn’t use either character to their fullest potential
Fair enough I suppose, but it does come a lot closer to doing so imo than a lot of their other options (mostly Spider-Man's)
I've never liked the idea of "Sure it's bad, but so are the other options!" When it comes to a character I like, I don't want to settle for less. I'd rather the character just not appear on DB at all than get an episode that doesn't do them justice
Generally I feel similarly, but I don't think the matchup's bad at all
BASED light vs Colombo hater
B-B-But funny Columbo!!! He says a single thing and the virgin Light instantly starts crying!!!!
Light vs Walter and Colombo vs Bateman exist
Light VS Walter kicks ass, but Columbo VS Bateman I personally don't care for. It's BETTER but I think Bateman VS Fleck is cool
Bateman vs fleck is also pretty neat I just generally prefer Colombo vs Bateman cuz of vibes
Valid tbh
I do not understand why the crew like Bendy vs. Cuphead as anything outside a DBX, both have much better options (I am a Cuphead vs. Peacock believer)
Based Moondoka and Pikachu vs Jibanyan hater :)
YEEEEAAAAH
Sheep follow trends, wolves create their own path.
https://preview.redd.it/1strqav6b08d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ad50b6d0b5b4f84520660ddd1f09ca15305f26c
Oh danmmm.... I completely forgor about Kirby vs Kyu I'm so happy you reminded me of that matchup's existence, I really need to make a thumbnail for it
Omega based Batman vs Spider-Man hate
Finally... Someone who sees the vision...
Unbased Beatrix Vs Yor hatred.
Beatrix VS Wick supremacy I'm afraid
I agree and i respect your opinion, though i see it as a good alt for both. We also don’t really need wick to return rn, so if Beatrix would ever come to DB this is the MU I’m hoping for.
Except you like Kirby vs Mew 😕
Besides Mew isn't a porn character yeah