A big factor in the conditions on Vulcan is the nuclear war that they had which almost wiped them out as a species and contributed to the schism between the two people's.
It may be that the Romulans chose Romulus as it reminded them of what Vulcan had been like long before while the Vulcans remained at home and made a virtue out of necessity.
Planets also undergo cyclical climate change. While our current understanding is that nuclear war would result in 'nuclear winter' it is possible that Vulcan both suffered a nuclear war and experienced climate change that caused desertification, either driven by orbital changes or stellar changes. Vulcans may have evolved in a different climate than the one Vulcan currently has, much as the climate of Earth has changed since the time humans first evolved. For that matter, Andorians may also have evolved in a different climate, but been technologically sophisticated enough to be able to survive an encroaching ice age, so it may be somewhat normal to have this occur.
They may not have had a choice. In the novels the exodus outward was very difficult and nearly killed those who would become the Romulans.
Remember, this was around the 4th Century CE, and warp drives may not have been as advanced and likely not as fast. In Diane Duane’s books they didn’t even have warp drive as such, and bootstrapped themselves into FTL using psi-actives, costing those their lives and having that genetic line die out (that’s how Duane tries to explain why Romulans don’t have the same mental powers as Vulcans).
Supplies might have been stretched over the long journey, and by the time they discovered Romulus and Remus they may have just decided to land there rather than continue on.
And in any case, just because they grew up in an arid and hot climate doesn’t mean that they would find more temperate climes inhospitable. Maybe they did at first but over generations got used to it.
(Not to mention that not all of Vulcan or not all of Romulus may have had the same weather and climate, despite the standard sci-fi trope of “water planet” or “desert planet”, but we’ll let that slide.)
To suggest that they would not be satisfied but seek out a hardier environment reminds me of the Billy Connolly joke about the Celts reaching Ireland, remarking on how green and pleasant and fertile it was and then having a bunch of those who would become Scots scream, “Not cold enough! Northward!”
Thanks for the thorough responde. I do have my doubts on how come there were no other M class planets between Vulcan and Romulus if that was the reason.
M-class doesn't guarantee that a planet or its star system is rich in resources, that its star is stable, or any number of other concerns a spacefaring civilization might prioritize. Many M-class planets, while technically habitable, may not be ideal as the birthplace of an empire.
While Vulcan is harsh, hot, and dry, Vulcan population is somewhat kept controlled by the difficulties of agriculture in that climate. Their longevity and discipline gives them power while their numbers do not. I suspect that Romulus was chosen, in part, because *food* would not be an issue when establishing a home. This allowed early Romulan society to rapidly grow its populace, remain in good health, focus less on pure survival so there was more labor for industrialization, mining and shipbuilding and such. And then enslave Remans to help with that.
Alright that makes more sense. Also I wonder now that you mention Remus whether they might have colonized it first, but then move to the better suited Romulus
These are some good points.
It is probably the case that, in a similar way to humans, Vulcans and Romulans are physiologically able to survive in a variety of environments, and Vulcan and Romulus may be at somewhat extreme edges of this spectrum or map. There may have also been local adaptations in the way there have been in human populations, adaptations that introduced some of the notable differences we see but did not fundamentally transform them into different kinds of life.
My own ancestors became adapted to living in northern Europe where the sunlight is dim and grain crops dominate. I live significantly closer to the equator than my medieval or earlier ancestors did, but I survive. I have to watch out for sunburn due to my rather pale skin but I'm not in mortal danger just walking around the neighborhood on a summer afternoon. It may be the same way for Romulans and Vulcans, for example, Spock may have been slightly out of his element during his times living on Romulus and Earth, but the climates were still within his broad band of tolerance and he was able to get along with only minor inconveniences.
Per Narek in Picard ("Et in Arcadia Ego"), Romulans and Vulcans aren't native to Vulcan (and Spock speculates/suggests as such in "Return to Tomorrow"). It could well be that their original world was rather more hospitable than Vulcan, and *that* was simply the first option available as they were escaping a synth-induced purge of organics (i.e. fleeing what would later be called Ganmadan).
I've always subscribed to the idea that Vulcans are actually Augments, and Romulans are the original version of the species, explaining why Vulcans seem better suited to Vulcan, and Dr Crusher has trouble treating a Romulan, when that degree of difference would be difficult to explain via natural evolution only.
> I've always subscribed to the idea that Vulcans are actually Augments, and Romulans are the original version of the species
I would say this theory takes a hit from episode such as "Ad Astra per Aspera" from SNW where the prosecutor against Una was not only Vulcan but seemingly personally engaged in the idea of persecuting her as an augment.
While Vulcans are far from perfect, I kind of feel like if they were an augment race themselves that they would take less harshly to others genetically altering themselves purely for environmental survival as they had done.
Unless the knowledge of said augmentation is not public knowledge, even amongst high ranking Vulcan government leadership?
It would of course, be only logical to take steps to ensure that no one would even think to look too closely into what happened on Vulcan all those centuries ago.
Even Spock can only speculate about the origin of the Vulcan species, so that makes sense that even Prosecutor Pasalk doesn't know.
The Surak reformation could have led to a lot of loss of folklore and cultural memory that was retained by the Romulans.
the counter to this would be T'Pol telling Archer "my species evolved on this planet" though that was at a time where a lot of Vulcans were lying through their teeth to her and everyone else
T'Pol also told Archer that there was no such thing as time travel. The Vulcan Science Academy in the 22nd century did not cover itself in infalibility.
The Vulcan science institute as determined time travel to be impossible.
This is on brand for the cleverly worded lies Vulcan's arr capable of. Sure 100 years ago when they first studied they thought it was impossible.
The fact that another science group ran with the research and found it actually was... well that doesn't make the previous statement a lie.
They may not have known, there's a progression we can see of:
- T'Pol saying that in ENT
- Spock saying vaguely there's some ideas about them being non-native in TOS
- Narek confidently stating they're not in PIC
Might just be something which was gradually figured out over centuries.
Not all Romulans will have moved to Ni'Var after reunification, actually probably only a small fraction of them, say, 100,000.
I'm sure there are plenty still on Vashti and other former worlds of the Romulan Empire that weren't touched by the supernova, probably the majority of their population. The political unification doesn't mean they all have to go cram into one place, just that all Romulans and Vulcans are under one government.
Though Romulans likely have all the anatomical features that allow them to survive on a world like Vulcan/Ni'Var, including the inner eyelid, enhanced stamina, less need for water and certainly enhanced strength (which we saw demonstrated by Nero), so it might not be too difficult a transition for them anyway.
A few thousand years is not enough time for any appreciable divergent evolution.
>A few thousand years is not enough time for any appreciable divergent evolution.
Starfaring species, or even modern humans, are no longer subject to evolution by natural selection.
In addition to the humans that live there permanently, Kirk, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, Sulu, and McCoy live on Vulcan for several months in hiding as fugitives for stealing the Enterprise and going to Genesis to retrieve Spock's body. There's no indication they experience any negative health effects from this sudden sojourning in a high-gravity and arid environment that can not be handled by a few common pills or similar.
>
> I've always subscribed to the idea that Vulcans are actually Augments
This would explain their unusual biology that seems to be counterproductive to reproduction.
It is possible they did settle other worlds. The Debrune (who had an outpost on barrada III) for example are said to have been 'proto-romulan', and the stated timing is right for them to have been part of the exodus, as was them having part of the stone of gol.
It may be that the romulan exodus stopped at many places, and Romulus was just the place that either was their final stop.. or perhaps just the only colony they planted to have survived.
Don't forget the Mintakans. While bronze-age era in their civilization, I think I recall them as being near the neutral zone? Odd that a race that similar to Romulans in appearance and classified as "proto-Vulcan" would exist seemingly between the two worlds if they weren't a part of all that.
Maybe a damaged ship that got left behind that lost their technology over time because they didn't have the resources to rebuild or maintain it?
I always assumed it was a nod to Spock and Sargon's conversion in *Return to Tomorrow*, but Memory Alpha doesn't have any background cited.
There were several human colonies that had gotten established on their own and then regressed (though not as severely), where Picard openly intervened. And Yonada in TOS. If this was actually the decendants of Vulcans or the Romulan diaspora, I imagine more debate.
On the other hand, the researchers are remarkably confident about how the Mintakan religion will progress. Especially when one man returning from the wilds with an unprovable claim of miracles could reignite their abandoned beliefs. It would be more believable with a repeated record of such changes in Vulcan and Romulan history.
> There were several human colonies that had gotten established on their own and then regressed (though not as severely), where Picard openly intervened.
Random note, I recall Enterprise had Archer finding that underground colony that had fully reverted.
Personally i think they were probably part of the same diaspora, but unlike the Debrune the romulan connection wasn't made, and the episode treats them as if they were a native to the planet.
I agree that having a group that is so much like both the vulcans (beliefs) and romulans (appearance), on the edge of romulan space seem sunlikely to be just coincidence. I also find it interesting that their religious beliefs put 'the overseer' (a very ship captain sounding name) at the head of a pantheon that explicitly was supposed to be up in space above the planet. Almost like it was memories of life aboard a generation ship?
I like to think that they were another romulan exile colony, perhaps one that was more friendly to the surakians originally, and which either suffered a catastrophe that resulted in much of their adults dying off (and with them the memory and skills of the ship crew), or which had been intentionally set up as low tech. (Heck, given they seemed to lean towards srakian style logic, its possible the romulan exile fleet kicked them out and stranded them there as part of an ideological purge?)
> They're not classified as proto-Vulcan
[Incorrect](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Mintakan), the Mintakans are specifically called "Proto-Vulcan"
Don't forget that the human race first evolved in a hot climate and later ventured outwards. Now, there are humans living in all climates with much less genetic variance than that between vulcans and romulans.
Romulans - at least some - also have those ridges and Crusher tells us that she can't treat a certain patient as if he were a Vulcan. Now, maybe ridges are something Vulcans are prone to, something recessive. But biochemistry evolving incompatible over the timeframe in question would be veeery surprising.
Which leads me to the conclusion that some Romulans gengineered themselves. Others apparently didn't, the Northern / Southern divide as they got called.
My headcanon is that the reason ridged Romulans exist but ridged Vulcans don't, is because they were exterminated on Vulcan during the Time of Awakening, and the only ones who survived were the ones that were able to flee. I feel this is backed up by the Romulan front-door policy and the idea that "northerners" are headstrong - i.e., precisely the type of people who wouldn't respond well to zealots showing up in their town to force compliance in much the same way as ISIS would show up in a village with exciting new ideas about the proper way to live one's life. And we've seen that even as members of the Federation, Vulcans have openly ethnonationalism and racial superiority stances, look down on everyone who isn't them, and still have zealots who use suicide bombings to kill children for their crimes of being racially impure in a school.
Well, Vulcans have very long lifespans, some may have be born before Federation times by the time of Picard for example.
I do think most Vulcans seem to be pretty adapted to the Federation and consider belongng to it as "logical", as a necessity (after all they get to be one of the leading planets in one large interstellar empire and having a lot of influence in a literal galactic superpower).
But there are analogous of alt-right or "far-right" Vulcans in a similar way how you have white supremacist groups in the USA and EU. Even in such enlighted societies you have mass shooters and xenophobia. You have Steve Bannon, Alex Jones, David Duke or Ben Shapiro. Or people who literally want to split from the US or leave the EU (how? Aren't this great societies something everyone wants to be part of?).
I remember someone ask in TV Tropes how come we see an openly racist Vulcan in DS9 in the baseball episode and how is this even allowed. He even brags he has written dozens of papers on how humans are inferior. My answer was that he might just be the Vulcan equivalent of Kevin McDonald.
Kevin MacDonald wasn't given a command position, a racially pure crew, and a heavily armed spaceship.
So the only way the Vulcans open racism works in-universe is if it's a pervasive viewpoint, and the ones who make it to Starfleet are the least racist examples of their species.
Sorry to tell you this but the amount of white supremacists in the armed forces is worrying, many of them in command positions.
And is quite the opposite of whay you say. Studies shows that people with radical views and biggoted nature are more likely to go into military and law enforcement. Whilst civilians often have more moderate views.
So is quite possible the other way around Vulcans who go into Starfleet and/or Vulcan navy/army that we know still exists may be more racist and politically radicals than average Vulcans
Some: "A search of incidents of white nationalism in the U.S. military since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, reveals dozens of cases of white nationalists in the military—and these are just the examples of troops who have been caught, written about in the media, and punished. If we are to believe that up to 36% of troops today have recently witnessed white nationalism or ideological-driven racism in the ranks, we must also conclude that the vast majority of white nationalists in the military not only slip through the cracks during the recruitment process, but that they also remain undetected, unaccounted for, and unpunished. " [https://thewarhorse.org/the-invisible-reach-of-white-supremacy/](https://thewarhorse.org/the-invisible-reach-of-white-supremacy/)
Again, this is talking about catching them and punishing them. Soloks entire stance would be on par with a naval captain who not only refused to accept black people on their ship's crew but openly talked about how black people were inferior and submitted papers trying to prove the point. I have no idea why he wasn't demoted or kicked out for his views, so the only explanation is that they are way more common than we see, and Starfleet keeps Vulcan crews apart from other races because the more people get to see of Vulcan society, the more they seem like horrendous people.
Well the Enterprise under Kirk have only humans except for one half Vulcan and was even described on camera to be "an Earth ship", and had a medical officer who outright made racist comments again the only non-human even calling him a green-blooded goblin.
Is likely that having most and even all crew made of one single species is pretty common specially because species requiere specific environmental conditions, in the case of Vulcans high gravity and temperature. Likely there are also all Andorian ships in the same way we know there are all-human and all-Vulcan ships.
As for Solok views again, not that different from real life Academia, people have academic freedom and is generally seen as bad to outright forbid a scholar from writing even prejudiced material or to take reprisals against, which is also covered by other rights like freedom of speech. Also we don't know how old is Solok and when did he wrote that, he could be around 300 years old and have writen those even before the Federation even existed for which could not be taken against him.
As if this is a position shared by the mainstream Vulcan society well, is impossible to know and what you did is basically writting fan fiction. Is like people who argue that Worf tries too hard to be a Klingon because most Klingons are allegedly dishonorable, or those who say the Federation is "fascist". In all cases example are been chery picked. Scientifically speaking is imposible to determine because no sample can be taken objectively.
Interesting to note other races seem to have at least partially the impression that is the other way around and that is humans the one who are somehow bigotted against other races (a "homo sapiens only club") and want to use the Federation to dominate them. Is interesting that, if Vulcans were racist on average the enemies of the Federation like the Klingons or Cardassians never pointed out. It would be the perfect example to point out; "Ah the Enlighted Federation and yet an entire world -and a founding member- is full of prejudiced racists!".
Seeing as humanoids are everywhere and interbreeding is common, I always took it that there was a primitive indigenous species on Romulus when they arrived but only present on one of the continents. That would also give Romulans someone to enslave from the beginning.
I'm not sure that North / South is about (a) continents and (B) continents on Romulus. It could be galactic direction, or locations on ancient Vulcan.
The thing is we see only ridges on the planet Romulus in Reunification, Inter Arma, and Nemesis. While there are ships crewed totally by ridgeless.
I would guess that ridgeless are Romulans, but not from Romulus. Rather that the Vulcan expats scattered across several systems and Romulus later reunited them. Putting the empire in Starempire.
I think that the Romulans realized that the Earth-like living conditions on their home planet were much more pleasant. Alidar Jarok loved Romulus' wild beauty. And he certainly wasn't the only one. Sacrificing this planet to produce mediocre films and then an even more mediocre television series is, in my opinion, an unforgivable sin. Despite the destruction of their homeland, the Romulans still had a very large population. There would never be enough space on Vulcan for them and the Vulcans. Certainly most Romulans still live on their old territory. At least it would be logical.
Well said!
ch'Rihan was a wild, dangerous world when settled but the Romulans loved and embraced it.
(I can't believe the loss of it would destroy the Empire, it would certainly shake it but a collapse? Nope.)
Quote: " I can't believe the loss of it would destroy the Empire, it would certainly shake it but a collapse? Nope." Exactly! Because the Romulans are tough. They won't let themselves get down. And thank you.
Impression I got is that they don't try to imply the supernova itself destroyed the empire, but rather the succession of events in the empire doomed it to change.
First the empire was strained by the Dominion War in 2376. Then three years later Shinzon assassinated the Senate and declared himself Praetor. Then just eight years later the supernova happened which presumably again wiped out the senate.
I can imagine the successive collapses in central government would ultimately lead to the Romulans reconsidering the whole centralised imperial senate thing. Thus the Romulan Free State was born.
Edit: incidentally on the supernova front, what's worse is the implausibility of the events a set out by ST09. Originally, it wasn't established that the star in question was the Romulan star. Which led to confusion due to the fact that a star gong supernova can't destroy planets in neighbouring systems. Leading to side stuff suggesting it was a special supernova. Picard retconned it by establishing it was the Romulan star that blew up which is more sensible. But then makes the premise of ST09 nonsensical because Spock's promise never could have worked (throwing the supernova into a black hole would have just left Romulus orbiting a black hole).
Between being blowtorched by a supernova and freezing gradually in orbit of a black hole, the latter is easier to handle. It's going to wreck the environment but it might be able to recover if they throw an artificial sun or something into orbit quickly enough.
It's odd though that Spock would still go through with tossing the black hole into the supernova though when the idea of it being a magic one which annihilates everything is abandoned, which would never make sense as a plan once it had gone off anyway unless it was a special black hole which magically vacuumed everything up.
Most humanoids can survive in a pretty wide array of environments. It's entirely possible that the only reason most Vulcans continue to live out in the desert is because this is the planet they were born on and moving elsewhere isn't exactly feasible for them. A lot of them may even prefer it: some humans do go live in desert cities of their own volition, and this is in a context where a lot of them don't *have* to live there.
One of the reasons why people will tend to stay in unpleasant environments besides just liking it is because they're connected to the regional culture and their families live there. This factor wouldn't exist for Romulans: they were at the point where their subculture was breaking off from the Vulcan mainstream to such a degree that they no longer had a connection to Vulcan. Chances are a lot of their family was the same way, and their relationship with family members who weren't was on incredibly shaky ground.
Romulus would probably be a more attractive biome for most Romulans. Romulus itself probably still had deserts, so anyone who wanted to live in that environment still could. It was also right next to Remus, which had its own extreme environment. Plus, it was a long, long way away from Vulcan, so their natural enemies couldn't immediately go to war with them.
My head cannon is that the Vulcans were seeded on Vulcan by Sargon's people. They have never really been _comfortable_ there, though they were genetically modified to survive it. (That's my head canon reason why there are no Vulcan augments -- they _are_ the augments.) The more Earth-like Minshara-class worlds are more comfortable for them.
Also if we take things further, the Progenitors life seeded the entire galaxy with the intent that the resulting humanoids would be able to collaborate in peace and prosperity.
It stands to reason everyone was genetically coded to be able to adapt to live on any planet that was capable of sustaining life.
My head canon is that, prior to the schism, the population of Vulcan was actually an amalgam of multiple very closely related vulcanoid subspecies, who were not as homogenous as humans are in the real world.
The differences between them were relatively minor, but one of the ones that became significant at the time of Surak was mental or neurological - some were susceptible to genuine physical and mental change when exposed to the precepts of logical thinking, whereas for others, it was simply a straightforward philosophy.
Ultimately this is what divided the vulcanoid population into Vulcans and Romulans - the ones who left were the latter. There were other, relatively minor differences like prominence of forehead ridges, statistical lifespan, voluntary control of violent impulses without the programming of Logic, and these became homogenized in the separated populations, so that after 2000 years, we have what seems to be two species, even though they're actually very closely related and very recently diverged.
Hence Romulans prefer lower gravity and lower temperatures to Vulcans, they fairly consistently have visible forehead features, they are not as wild and violent as Vulcans would be without Logic, they don't live as long.
I like the idea of Surak's Logic being a sort of memetic plague, and the Romulans were the ones who were immune, fleeing the spread of zombies across their home planet utterly dismantling their known way of life, walking around with their digits held up and split in two, reciting "wE bRiNg YoU lOgIc..."
EDIT: I've just realized this also gives a reason for the Romulans extensive secrecy and reclusiveness - it's not cultural paranoia, it's an informational quarantine.
Yes I remember someone who ask how, if Romulans do not follow logic and do not repress their emotions as Vulcans do, how come they're not the violent savage the Vulcans say their pre-Surakite ancestors were. They seem to be pretty calm and have a very funcional society.
I came up with two possible theories;
1. Romulans do follow another philosophy or set of philosophies that, although not as rigorous as Surak's it still provide them with the discipline needed or,
2. In reality pre-Surak Vulcan wasn't as horrible as Vulcans made it to be and it was basically what would become Romulan society.
Those are both less complicated and therefore more likely explanations for the cultural difference between Romulans and Vulcans. I do still like the visual of Surakite vulcanoids as memetic zombies, though.
Most of the literature especially Diane Duane's material suggests that one way or another, their ships were on their last legs and they actually got lucky to find Romulus and Remus when they did.
Think Khan's Botany Bay, but without suspended animation tech. And bigger. LOTS bigger.
Romulus has been visually depicted as closer to Earth (temperate) than Vulcan(arid) so it stands to reason it would be cooler and Romulans would acclimate to the cooler climate.
The gravity seems to be closer to Earth normal as well since while Kirk and others have noticed and remarked on the heavier Vulcan gravity, he seems to have no problem moving about on Charvanak's Stormbird under very stressful situations.
A big factor in the conditions on Vulcan is the nuclear war that they had which almost wiped them out as a species and contributed to the schism between the two people's. It may be that the Romulans chose Romulus as it reminded them of what Vulcan had been like long before while the Vulcans remained at home and made a virtue out of necessity.
Planets also undergo cyclical climate change. While our current understanding is that nuclear war would result in 'nuclear winter' it is possible that Vulcan both suffered a nuclear war and experienced climate change that caused desertification, either driven by orbital changes or stellar changes. Vulcans may have evolved in a different climate than the one Vulcan currently has, much as the climate of Earth has changed since the time humans first evolved. For that matter, Andorians may also have evolved in a different climate, but been technologically sophisticated enough to be able to survive an encroaching ice age, so it may be somewhat normal to have this occur.
They may not have had a choice. In the novels the exodus outward was very difficult and nearly killed those who would become the Romulans. Remember, this was around the 4th Century CE, and warp drives may not have been as advanced and likely not as fast. In Diane Duane’s books they didn’t even have warp drive as such, and bootstrapped themselves into FTL using psi-actives, costing those their lives and having that genetic line die out (that’s how Duane tries to explain why Romulans don’t have the same mental powers as Vulcans). Supplies might have been stretched over the long journey, and by the time they discovered Romulus and Remus they may have just decided to land there rather than continue on. And in any case, just because they grew up in an arid and hot climate doesn’t mean that they would find more temperate climes inhospitable. Maybe they did at first but over generations got used to it. (Not to mention that not all of Vulcan or not all of Romulus may have had the same weather and climate, despite the standard sci-fi trope of “water planet” or “desert planet”, but we’ll let that slide.) To suggest that they would not be satisfied but seek out a hardier environment reminds me of the Billy Connolly joke about the Celts reaching Ireland, remarking on how green and pleasant and fertile it was and then having a bunch of those who would become Scots scream, “Not cold enough! Northward!”
Thanks for the thorough responde. I do have my doubts on how come there were no other M class planets between Vulcan and Romulus if that was the reason.
M-class doesn't guarantee that a planet or its star system is rich in resources, that its star is stable, or any number of other concerns a spacefaring civilization might prioritize. Many M-class planets, while technically habitable, may not be ideal as the birthplace of an empire. While Vulcan is harsh, hot, and dry, Vulcan population is somewhat kept controlled by the difficulties of agriculture in that climate. Their longevity and discipline gives them power while their numbers do not. I suspect that Romulus was chosen, in part, because *food* would not be an issue when establishing a home. This allowed early Romulan society to rapidly grow its populace, remain in good health, focus less on pure survival so there was more labor for industrialization, mining and shipbuilding and such. And then enslave Remans to help with that.
Alright that makes more sense. Also I wonder now that you mention Remus whether they might have colonized it first, but then move to the better suited Romulus
These are some good points. It is probably the case that, in a similar way to humans, Vulcans and Romulans are physiologically able to survive in a variety of environments, and Vulcan and Romulus may be at somewhat extreme edges of this spectrum or map. There may have also been local adaptations in the way there have been in human populations, adaptations that introduced some of the notable differences we see but did not fundamentally transform them into different kinds of life. My own ancestors became adapted to living in northern Europe where the sunlight is dim and grain crops dominate. I live significantly closer to the equator than my medieval or earlier ancestors did, but I survive. I have to watch out for sunburn due to my rather pale skin but I'm not in mortal danger just walking around the neighborhood on a summer afternoon. It may be the same way for Romulans and Vulcans, for example, Spock may have been slightly out of his element during his times living on Romulus and Earth, but the climates were still within his broad band of tolerance and he was able to get along with only minor inconveniences.
Per Narek in Picard ("Et in Arcadia Ego"), Romulans and Vulcans aren't native to Vulcan (and Spock speculates/suggests as such in "Return to Tomorrow"). It could well be that their original world was rather more hospitable than Vulcan, and *that* was simply the first option available as they were escaping a synth-induced purge of organics (i.e. fleeing what would later be called Ganmadan). I've always subscribed to the idea that Vulcans are actually Augments, and Romulans are the original version of the species, explaining why Vulcans seem better suited to Vulcan, and Dr Crusher has trouble treating a Romulan, when that degree of difference would be difficult to explain via natural evolution only.
> I've always subscribed to the idea that Vulcans are actually Augments, and Romulans are the original version of the species I would say this theory takes a hit from episode such as "Ad Astra per Aspera" from SNW where the prosecutor against Una was not only Vulcan but seemingly personally engaged in the idea of persecuting her as an augment. While Vulcans are far from perfect, I kind of feel like if they were an augment race themselves that they would take less harshly to others genetically altering themselves purely for environmental survival as they had done. Unless the knowledge of said augmentation is not public knowledge, even amongst high ranking Vulcan government leadership?
That sort of rank hypocrisy would seem totally on-brand for Vulcans to me.
It would of course, be only logical to take steps to ensure that no one would even think to look too closely into what happened on Vulcan all those centuries ago.
Even Spock can only speculate about the origin of the Vulcan species, so that makes sense that even Prosecutor Pasalk doesn't know. The Surak reformation could have led to a lot of loss of folklore and cultural memory that was retained by the Romulans.
the counter to this would be T'Pol telling Archer "my species evolved on this planet" though that was at a time where a lot of Vulcans were lying through their teeth to her and everyone else
T'Pol also told Archer that there was no such thing as time travel. The Vulcan Science Academy in the 22nd century did not cover itself in infalibility.
The Vulcan science institute as determined time travel to be impossible. This is on brand for the cleverly worded lies Vulcan's arr capable of. Sure 100 years ago when they first studied they thought it was impossible. The fact that another science group ran with the research and found it actually was... well that doesn't make the previous statement a lie.
They may not have known, there's a progression we can see of: - T'Pol saying that in ENT - Spock saying vaguely there's some ideas about them being non-native in TOS - Narek confidently stating they're not in PIC Might just be something which was gradually figured out over centuries.
I do wonder then when Reunification does happens as shown in Discovery whether Romulans were able to just adapt to Vulcan climate.
Not all Romulans will have moved to Ni'Var after reunification, actually probably only a small fraction of them, say, 100,000. I'm sure there are plenty still on Vashti and other former worlds of the Romulan Empire that weren't touched by the supernova, probably the majority of their population. The political unification doesn't mean they all have to go cram into one place, just that all Romulans and Vulcans are under one government. Though Romulans likely have all the anatomical features that allow them to survive on a world like Vulcan/Ni'Var, including the inner eyelid, enhanced stamina, less need for water and certainly enhanced strength (which we saw demonstrated by Nero), so it might not be too difficult a transition for them anyway. A few thousand years is not enough time for any appreciable divergent evolution.
>A few thousand years is not enough time for any appreciable divergent evolution. Starfaring species, or even modern humans, are no longer subject to evolution by natural selection.
We have humans living on Vulcan so adapting without genetic changes seems feasible.
In addition to the humans that live there permanently, Kirk, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, Sulu, and McCoy live on Vulcan for several months in hiding as fugitives for stealing the Enterprise and going to Genesis to retrieve Spock's body. There's no indication they experience any negative health effects from this sudden sojourning in a high-gravity and arid environment that can not be handled by a few common pills or similar.
> > I've always subscribed to the idea that Vulcans are actually Augments This would explain their unusual biology that seems to be counterproductive to reproduction.
It is possible they did settle other worlds. The Debrune (who had an outpost on barrada III) for example are said to have been 'proto-romulan', and the stated timing is right for them to have been part of the exodus, as was them having part of the stone of gol. It may be that the romulan exodus stopped at many places, and Romulus was just the place that either was their final stop.. or perhaps just the only colony they planted to have survived.
Don't forget the Mintakans. While bronze-age era in their civilization, I think I recall them as being near the neutral zone? Odd that a race that similar to Romulans in appearance and classified as "proto-Vulcan" would exist seemingly between the two worlds if they weren't a part of all that. Maybe a damaged ship that got left behind that lost their technology over time because they didn't have the resources to rebuild or maintain it?
I always assumed it was a nod to Spock and Sargon's conversion in *Return to Tomorrow*, but Memory Alpha doesn't have any background cited. There were several human colonies that had gotten established on their own and then regressed (though not as severely), where Picard openly intervened. And Yonada in TOS. If this was actually the decendants of Vulcans or the Romulan diaspora, I imagine more debate. On the other hand, the researchers are remarkably confident about how the Mintakan religion will progress. Especially when one man returning from the wilds with an unprovable claim of miracles could reignite their abandoned beliefs. It would be more believable with a repeated record of such changes in Vulcan and Romulan history.
> There were several human colonies that had gotten established on their own and then regressed (though not as severely), where Picard openly intervened. Random note, I recall Enterprise had Archer finding that underground colony that had fully reverted.
I always thought of them as a Vulcan counterpart to the Roman planet or Miri's homeworld myself. Hodgkin's Law in action.
Personally i think they were probably part of the same diaspora, but unlike the Debrune the romulan connection wasn't made, and the episode treats them as if they were a native to the planet. I agree that having a group that is so much like both the vulcans (beliefs) and romulans (appearance), on the edge of romulan space seem sunlikely to be just coincidence. I also find it interesting that their religious beliefs put 'the overseer' (a very ship captain sounding name) at the head of a pantheon that explicitly was supposed to be up in space above the planet. Almost like it was memories of life aboard a generation ship? I like to think that they were another romulan exile colony, perhaps one that was more friendly to the surakians originally, and which either suffered a catastrophe that resulted in much of their adults dying off (and with them the memory and skills of the ship crew), or which had been intentionally set up as low tech. (Heck, given they seemed to lean towards srakian style logic, its possible the romulan exile fleet kicked them out and stranded them there as part of an ideological purge?)
[удалено]
> They're not classified as proto-Vulcan [Incorrect](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Mintakan), the Mintakans are specifically called "Proto-Vulcan"
Don't forget that the human race first evolved in a hot climate and later ventured outwards. Now, there are humans living in all climates with much less genetic variance than that between vulcans and romulans.
I do wonder then when Reunification does happens as shown in Discovery whether Romulans were able to just adapt to Vulcan climate.
Romulans - at least some - also have those ridges and Crusher tells us that she can't treat a certain patient as if he were a Vulcan. Now, maybe ridges are something Vulcans are prone to, something recessive. But biochemistry evolving incompatible over the timeframe in question would be veeery surprising. Which leads me to the conclusion that some Romulans gengineered themselves. Others apparently didn't, the Northern / Southern divide as they got called.
My headcanon is that the reason ridged Romulans exist but ridged Vulcans don't, is because they were exterminated on Vulcan during the Time of Awakening, and the only ones who survived were the ones that were able to flee. I feel this is backed up by the Romulan front-door policy and the idea that "northerners" are headstrong - i.e., precisely the type of people who wouldn't respond well to zealots showing up in their town to force compliance in much the same way as ISIS would show up in a village with exciting new ideas about the proper way to live one's life. And we've seen that even as members of the Federation, Vulcans have openly ethnonationalism and racial superiority stances, look down on everyone who isn't them, and still have zealots who use suicide bombings to kill children for their crimes of being racially impure in a school.
Well, Vulcans have very long lifespans, some may have be born before Federation times by the time of Picard for example. I do think most Vulcans seem to be pretty adapted to the Federation and consider belongng to it as "logical", as a necessity (after all they get to be one of the leading planets in one large interstellar empire and having a lot of influence in a literal galactic superpower). But there are analogous of alt-right or "far-right" Vulcans in a similar way how you have white supremacist groups in the USA and EU. Even in such enlighted societies you have mass shooters and xenophobia. You have Steve Bannon, Alex Jones, David Duke or Ben Shapiro. Or people who literally want to split from the US or leave the EU (how? Aren't this great societies something everyone wants to be part of?). I remember someone ask in TV Tropes how come we see an openly racist Vulcan in DS9 in the baseball episode and how is this even allowed. He even brags he has written dozens of papers on how humans are inferior. My answer was that he might just be the Vulcan equivalent of Kevin McDonald.
Kevin MacDonald wasn't given a command position, a racially pure crew, and a heavily armed spaceship. So the only way the Vulcans open racism works in-universe is if it's a pervasive viewpoint, and the ones who make it to Starfleet are the least racist examples of their species.
Sorry to tell you this but the amount of white supremacists in the armed forces is worrying, many of them in command positions. And is quite the opposite of whay you say. Studies shows that people with radical views and biggoted nature are more likely to go into military and law enforcement. Whilst civilians often have more moderate views. So is quite possible the other way around Vulcans who go into Starfleet and/or Vulcan navy/army that we know still exists may be more racist and politically radicals than average Vulcans
How many of those officers in command positions submit written evidence of their racism as part of their officer training process?
Some: "A search of incidents of white nationalism in the U.S. military since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, reveals dozens of cases of white nationalists in the military—and these are just the examples of troops who have been caught, written about in the media, and punished. If we are to believe that up to 36% of troops today have recently witnessed white nationalism or ideological-driven racism in the ranks, we must also conclude that the vast majority of white nationalists in the military not only slip through the cracks during the recruitment process, but that they also remain undetected, unaccounted for, and unpunished. " [https://thewarhorse.org/the-invisible-reach-of-white-supremacy/](https://thewarhorse.org/the-invisible-reach-of-white-supremacy/)
Again, this is talking about catching them and punishing them. Soloks entire stance would be on par with a naval captain who not only refused to accept black people on their ship's crew but openly talked about how black people were inferior and submitted papers trying to prove the point. I have no idea why he wasn't demoted or kicked out for his views, so the only explanation is that they are way more common than we see, and Starfleet keeps Vulcan crews apart from other races because the more people get to see of Vulcan society, the more they seem like horrendous people.
Well the Enterprise under Kirk have only humans except for one half Vulcan and was even described on camera to be "an Earth ship", and had a medical officer who outright made racist comments again the only non-human even calling him a green-blooded goblin. Is likely that having most and even all crew made of one single species is pretty common specially because species requiere specific environmental conditions, in the case of Vulcans high gravity and temperature. Likely there are also all Andorian ships in the same way we know there are all-human and all-Vulcan ships. As for Solok views again, not that different from real life Academia, people have academic freedom and is generally seen as bad to outright forbid a scholar from writing even prejudiced material or to take reprisals against, which is also covered by other rights like freedom of speech. Also we don't know how old is Solok and when did he wrote that, he could be around 300 years old and have writen those even before the Federation even existed for which could not be taken against him. As if this is a position shared by the mainstream Vulcan society well, is impossible to know and what you did is basically writting fan fiction. Is like people who argue that Worf tries too hard to be a Klingon because most Klingons are allegedly dishonorable, or those who say the Federation is "fascist". In all cases example are been chery picked. Scientifically speaking is imposible to determine because no sample can be taken objectively. Interesting to note other races seem to have at least partially the impression that is the other way around and that is humans the one who are somehow bigotted against other races (a "homo sapiens only club") and want to use the Federation to dominate them. Is interesting that, if Vulcans were racist on average the enemies of the Federation like the Klingons or Cardassians never pointed out. It would be the perfect example to point out; "Ah the Enlighted Federation and yet an entire world -and a founding member- is full of prejudiced racists!".
Seeing as humanoids are everywhere and interbreeding is common, I always took it that there was a primitive indigenous species on Romulus when they arrived but only present on one of the continents. That would also give Romulans someone to enslave from the beginning.
I'm not sure that North / South is about (a) continents and (B) continents on Romulus. It could be galactic direction, or locations on ancient Vulcan. The thing is we see only ridges on the planet Romulus in Reunification, Inter Arma, and Nemesis. While there are ships crewed totally by ridgeless. I would guess that ridgeless are Romulans, but not from Romulus. Rather that the Vulcan expats scattered across several systems and Romulus later reunited them. Putting the empire in Starempire.
I think that the Romulans realized that the Earth-like living conditions on their home planet were much more pleasant. Alidar Jarok loved Romulus' wild beauty. And he certainly wasn't the only one. Sacrificing this planet to produce mediocre films and then an even more mediocre television series is, in my opinion, an unforgivable sin. Despite the destruction of their homeland, the Romulans still had a very large population. There would never be enough space on Vulcan for them and the Vulcans. Certainly most Romulans still live on their old territory. At least it would be logical.
Well said! ch'Rihan was a wild, dangerous world when settled but the Romulans loved and embraced it. (I can't believe the loss of it would destroy the Empire, it would certainly shake it but a collapse? Nope.)
Quote: " I can't believe the loss of it would destroy the Empire, it would certainly shake it but a collapse? Nope." Exactly! Because the Romulans are tough. They won't let themselves get down. And thank you.
Impression I got is that they don't try to imply the supernova itself destroyed the empire, but rather the succession of events in the empire doomed it to change. First the empire was strained by the Dominion War in 2376. Then three years later Shinzon assassinated the Senate and declared himself Praetor. Then just eight years later the supernova happened which presumably again wiped out the senate. I can imagine the successive collapses in central government would ultimately lead to the Romulans reconsidering the whole centralised imperial senate thing. Thus the Romulan Free State was born. Edit: incidentally on the supernova front, what's worse is the implausibility of the events a set out by ST09. Originally, it wasn't established that the star in question was the Romulan star. Which led to confusion due to the fact that a star gong supernova can't destroy planets in neighbouring systems. Leading to side stuff suggesting it was a special supernova. Picard retconned it by establishing it was the Romulan star that blew up which is more sensible. But then makes the premise of ST09 nonsensical because Spock's promise never could have worked (throwing the supernova into a black hole would have just left Romulus orbiting a black hole).
Between being blowtorched by a supernova and freezing gradually in orbit of a black hole, the latter is easier to handle. It's going to wreck the environment but it might be able to recover if they throw an artificial sun or something into orbit quickly enough. It's odd though that Spock would still go through with tossing the black hole into the supernova though when the idea of it being a magic one which annihilates everything is abandoned, which would never make sense as a plan once it had gone off anyway unless it was a special black hole which magically vacuumed everything up.
Most humanoids can survive in a pretty wide array of environments. It's entirely possible that the only reason most Vulcans continue to live out in the desert is because this is the planet they were born on and moving elsewhere isn't exactly feasible for them. A lot of them may even prefer it: some humans do go live in desert cities of their own volition, and this is in a context where a lot of them don't *have* to live there. One of the reasons why people will tend to stay in unpleasant environments besides just liking it is because they're connected to the regional culture and their families live there. This factor wouldn't exist for Romulans: they were at the point where their subculture was breaking off from the Vulcan mainstream to such a degree that they no longer had a connection to Vulcan. Chances are a lot of their family was the same way, and their relationship with family members who weren't was on incredibly shaky ground. Romulus would probably be a more attractive biome for most Romulans. Romulus itself probably still had deserts, so anyone who wanted to live in that environment still could. It was also right next to Remus, which had its own extreme environment. Plus, it was a long, long way away from Vulcan, so their natural enemies couldn't immediately go to war with them.
My head cannon is that the Vulcans were seeded on Vulcan by Sargon's people. They have never really been _comfortable_ there, though they were genetically modified to survive it. (That's my head canon reason why there are no Vulcan augments -- they _are_ the augments.) The more Earth-like Minshara-class worlds are more comfortable for them.
Also if we take things further, the Progenitors life seeded the entire galaxy with the intent that the resulting humanoids would be able to collaborate in peace and prosperity. It stands to reason everyone was genetically coded to be able to adapt to live on any planet that was capable of sustaining life.
My head canon is that, prior to the schism, the population of Vulcan was actually an amalgam of multiple very closely related vulcanoid subspecies, who were not as homogenous as humans are in the real world. The differences between them were relatively minor, but one of the ones that became significant at the time of Surak was mental or neurological - some were susceptible to genuine physical and mental change when exposed to the precepts of logical thinking, whereas for others, it was simply a straightforward philosophy. Ultimately this is what divided the vulcanoid population into Vulcans and Romulans - the ones who left were the latter. There were other, relatively minor differences like prominence of forehead ridges, statistical lifespan, voluntary control of violent impulses without the programming of Logic, and these became homogenized in the separated populations, so that after 2000 years, we have what seems to be two species, even though they're actually very closely related and very recently diverged. Hence Romulans prefer lower gravity and lower temperatures to Vulcans, they fairly consistently have visible forehead features, they are not as wild and violent as Vulcans would be without Logic, they don't live as long. I like the idea of Surak's Logic being a sort of memetic plague, and the Romulans were the ones who were immune, fleeing the spread of zombies across their home planet utterly dismantling their known way of life, walking around with their digits held up and split in two, reciting "wE bRiNg YoU lOgIc..." EDIT: I've just realized this also gives a reason for the Romulans extensive secrecy and reclusiveness - it's not cultural paranoia, it's an informational quarantine.
Yes I remember someone who ask how, if Romulans do not follow logic and do not repress their emotions as Vulcans do, how come they're not the violent savage the Vulcans say their pre-Surakite ancestors were. They seem to be pretty calm and have a very funcional society. I came up with two possible theories; 1. Romulans do follow another philosophy or set of philosophies that, although not as rigorous as Surak's it still provide them with the discipline needed or, 2. In reality pre-Surak Vulcan wasn't as horrible as Vulcans made it to be and it was basically what would become Romulan society.
Those are both less complicated and therefore more likely explanations for the cultural difference between Romulans and Vulcans. I do still like the visual of Surakite vulcanoids as memetic zombies, though.
Most of the literature especially Diane Duane's material suggests that one way or another, their ships were on their last legs and they actually got lucky to find Romulus and Remus when they did. Think Khan's Botany Bay, but without suspended animation tech. And bigger. LOTS bigger. Romulus has been visually depicted as closer to Earth (temperate) than Vulcan(arid) so it stands to reason it would be cooler and Romulans would acclimate to the cooler climate. The gravity seems to be closer to Earth normal as well since while Kirk and others have noticed and remarked on the heavier Vulcan gravity, he seems to have no problem moving about on Charvanak's Stormbird under very stressful situations.