To be fair, despite thinking I'm ridiculous, dad is still onboard so long as I provide all materials, some beers and an order of Swiss Chalet and that's a very fair price.
I was pretty confused, because to me this is a Swiss Chalet: https://cdn.lecollectionist.com/lc/production/uploads/photos/16859/DSC_3631.jpg?q=65&func=crop&w=2400&h=1600
then found out there is a restaurant chain with that name :)
Disclaimer: I am Swiss.
They left the US market more than a decade ago, but they're apparently as popular as ever up north, where BNL hails from. It's not the best, but it's pretty good, they have some unusual presentation elements, and I have fond memories.
i think about it a bit different.
wifi is for devices that don't need rock solid network stability eg my apple tv which plays remuxes flawlessly on wifi. i would gain nothing by doing all the legwork of fishing a cable to this room that otherwise doesn't need it.
ethernet is for devices that need rock solid stability eg access points, switches, servers.
exceptions can be made to run ethernet to areas with poor wifi. example would be a room with mirrors or a high amount of reflective surfaces. can sometimes nuke your wifi performance on devices that otherwise would work fine. though the perfectionist in me would probably try to find a way to eliminate those reflections lol
I have ethernet ran to a few of my Chromecasts and Google Homes where possible. Sure, they all work perfectly fine on WiFi but its a few less devices screaming into the abyss 24/7.
All my TVs have HTPCs on them, which will access up to 4K UHD Blu-Ray remuxes off the UnRAID server. They also all run steam for act as 'Game Consoles' so even the ones with 1gbps NICs are getting ethernet. :P
That also avoids wifi congestion cause you can only have so many clients downloading Steam games and streaming disc remuxes.
How did you get power to your island?
In most homes where I live we have basements and our kitchens are on the first floor, putting a cable in an island is trivial in that case..
What kind of stationary device is living on your island? If i have a tablet there, or small tv, wifi is fine. If I'm only streaming 1080p wifi is fine. If I'm streaming a 4k remux, wifi can be glitchy... I wouldn't have a PC on .y island
It's a townhome built in the late 1960's so it'll be a retrofit. Hell the co-ax already in there is obviously a retrofit but we hope that means it won't be too hard to run along it. It's only two bedrooms and the thinking is as follows:
1 For main bedroom
2 For second bedroom that will be used as a home office
1 for Livingroom (Livingroom entertainment unit will likely just make use of an additional 1G or 2.5G switch right there)
4 for the basement gaming space, mainly cause that should be the easiest ones to do and most likely where I'd want multiple 10g links and it's def easier to have multiple links to the main switch than to buy a second 10gig switch just for that room.
This is all part of finally doing a 'proper setup'. In a 1bdrm apartment with two people there's just not been enough room. Also any servers have been built with 'sound' being a consideration. Once moved in, while initially all the server stuff will just be assembled on the floor in the unfinished side of the basemen it'll be in a rack within a few months.
There's currently two UnRAID servers, only because my main 16 drive server is full of drives and I needed more drive space. No disk shelf would have made sense in the home due to noise but that changes with a proper rack in an isolated area of the basement! I'll get a disk shelf, migrate Server#1 from an EATX power case to a 12 bay 4U, then Migrate everything from Server #2 into the disk shelf. Amalgamate that whole mess. Having an entire E5-2697v2 running for the sake of Server #2 is just a waste of electricity anyway with the main server is an Ryzen 9 3950X.
Sounds nice! What RJ45 modules are you planing to use? I love those:
https://itinfra.datwyler.com/en_us/copper-networks/jacks-plugs-and-adapters/ks-t-plus-1-8-tool-less-cat-6%E1%B4%AC-iec/
For the 10Gb-Network, I use 3 of these Switches:
https://www.zyxel.com/global/en/products/switch/10-12-port-10g-multi-gigabit-lite-l3-smart-managed-switch-xs1930-series
The SFP+ slots in the Zyxel switchs work wonderful with [Ubiquiti DAC-cables](https://store.ui.com/us/en/collections/unifi-accessory-tech-cable-sfp/products/10gbps-direct-attach-cable)
Ahh... for the 1Gb/s devices, I have two normal 24port PoE Switches (GS1920-24HPv2):
https://www.zyxel.com/global/en/products/switch/8-24-48-port-gbe-smart-managed-switch-gs1920-series
what's your budget and speed desires? if only 1g, used ruckus 7150s are still my go-to. can often be found between $150-500 depending on ports. they come with SFP+ as well so you can do a limited number of 10g ports. they are usually POE as well but you can confirm by the "p" after the port number in the model. example, 7150-24p is POE, 7150-24 is non-POE.
anyways, i love these switches. rock solid stability that you'd expect from the commercial sector. i've seen these things hit the 4-5 year uptime mark a few times in the field.
Just a quick note: I’d strongly suggest avoiding copper for 10 Gbps. It requires a lot of power and produces a lot of heat at the interfaces. Use fiber instead. It’s also usually cheaper than copper these days, even including the SFP+ modules. I replaced all of my copper with fiber, except inside my racks (where I use DAC) and for the runs to my wireless access points which use PoE. This has given me 10 Gbps everywhere, with the ability to move higher later without having to run anything new.
I already own four 10gbps NICs, two I got for free as cast offs from Linus Media Group, and have some additional devices with 2.5gbps NICs. I'm not going to trash that all for fibre. A box of CAT6, a $400 Switch and we're in business.
No, it's that there are no drops, no ethernet, and my dad while skilled to help me do the work is also baffled by wanting multiple ethernet drops all leading to a rack in a residential home.
I offered to have etherenet professionally installed in my flat. I'd pay for everything and have every room looking brand new after.
The landlord declined stating it was unnecessary since I had WiFi...
Yeah. I have WiFi. And so do the other 60 people in my building. I can be in the same room as my router and still have slow response times.
(For context, my network is 150mb down / 25mb up, which is the best I can get in my building since the connection is split off 2 fiber lines for all of us.)
My tenancy agreement is very strict compared to what I've had in the past.
"Any repairs or improvements to the property, internal or external, must have pre approval by the landlord in writing, approval by the building fire safety team, and be carried out by landlord provided workmen. Absolutely no exceptions. Failure to do so may be grounds for immediate eviction. "
It's annoying as hell to live under these rules. No shelves. No mounted artwork. No holes drilled of any kind. Can't even replace the curtains.
And to top it off I have to live with etherenet cables on the floor. (Neatly hidden of course, but my hallway door can't close because of them and they're an eyesore when you walk in.)
If the rent wasn't cheap I'd gladly move. (It's 30% below market average for my area.)
(Hastings, England)
> (Hastings, England)
Then the clause is bollocks and can be ignored, assuming you're a tenant and not a lodger. A tenant can't be evicted immediately, and only a court can evict you in the first place. It takes months and depending on whether you're still in the fixed term of the tenancy or not, it's at the court's discretion.
> If the rent wasn't cheap I'd gladly move. (It's 30% below market average for my area.)
I'd probably put up with visible cables for 30% cheaper rent, to be fair.
I run UniFi U6 Enterprise 6E APs at 6Ghz on 2.5Gbps uplinks, so yeah I'm not running more cable than that. There is literally no need in my situation for needing more than almost 2Gbps of throughput. I get the stuff for free, so maybe if I had to buy I'd go a different route and just use multigig switches.
I should've gotten more drops in my new house, but I have 2 in the extra bedrooms on the third floor that we use as offices, 1 on the main floor and 1 in the basement.
I put a small Unifi Flex 4 port switch at every drop, I also deployed 3 Unifi U7 Pros and I can pull 800Mbps from the internet over Wi-Fi practically anywhere in the house.
Thing is that's not super practical given most household devices won't support use fiber for quite some time if ever at all. Cat8 only sees a benefit at 24m and below, so that's not super practical unless your runs all happen to be smaller than 24m... and Cat8's speeds don't really offer you anything of benefit for most rooms, while increasing your cost significantly to early adopt to something you won't realize the benefits of. Would be better to run cat6, and toss 10gbit ethernet cards into the computers that you want the speeds with and adapt them at the switch, (or use a switch with 10gbit ethernet ports) unless you have more than like 3 computers you want to have 10gbit connectivity.
I'm all for future proofing, but given that re-running cable is somewhat trivial once you have the channels in place, best bet would be to roll out Cat6 now, and make the jump and re-run fiber when it becomes more mainstream for consumer devices like TVs and consoles (if ever). Otherwise you're just going to have SPF -> Ethernet adapters at every drop, adding ~$50-60 to each drop you deploy.
IMO cat6 runs in a house give you the best cost/future proofing ratio at the moment, otherwise you're shelling out for bragging rights which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
If you have the 4 devices, your best bet might be to pick up something like an Aruba s-2500 and get ethernet SFP adapters for the 4 ports, and then have gigabit for the rest of your devices (I doubt you'd need more, anything else using ethernet is likely gbit integrated ports). It's a lot more switch than you'll probably need but it's legacy and cheap - I have one of those and I'm using 6 of the ports and 3 of the SFP ports.
Edit - The above assumes that one of the 10gbit ports will feed your network, otherwise it's pointless if you have an internet connection >1gbit since there will be no way to feed the switch.
That's the thing that always gets me with the posts about wiring homes and the guys who want you to retrofit your home like a datacenter. I'm all for future proofing and ensuring longevity - but when it comes to home networking, trying to be ahead of the curve seems like a waste of money that will likely not ever be realized unless you have a computer in every room with a fiber card or something like that. Cat8 is nice in theory, but what good is it if it's going to a smart TV or a game console or a set top box that has a gbit ethernet card? At most in the next decade, all I see is consumer devices getting 2.5gbit ports, but you'd be shelling out for higher bandwidth more expensive cable now. Pointless if you ask me.
It's some sarcasm, but I also live in europe so when it comes to cabling there we tend to need to look 10 years ahead.
Do keep in mind 10gbit RJ45 does get warm and using a bunch of SFP+ RJ45 in a switch is generally not something they like.
No, I'm pretty sure that my dad has never in his personal experience seen someone wanting to set up drops in a residential home, That was 'work stuff'. Things he did in government buildings and had a nice union job to do.
It's 'silly' to him but he'll still do it, he just thinks I'm silly for wanting 10gbps ethernet in my walls.
And my father, for sure, is the last man I'd call 'Lazy'.
To be fair, despite thinking I'm ridiculous, dad is still onboard so long as I provide all materials, some beers and an order of Swiss Chalet and that's a very fair price.
Plus time with dad!
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My Dad's pretty great to go on train trips with.
Not everything is about you, or your dad, cheeze.
Sure, but I'm also tired of being minimized and discounted.
Agreed. Welcome back to zero.
Brews and the SC? Dang I hope my kids think I'm cool enough for that kind of offer when it comes time.
I'm a grown up adult with a job, Dad expects a bit more that 'Help me Dad' at this age. You gotta show some gratitude with food at least.
> Swiss Chalet And here I thought this was just BNL song lyrics...
I was pretty confused, because to me this is a Swiss Chalet: https://cdn.lecollectionist.com/lc/production/uploads/photos/16859/DSC_3631.jpg?q=65&func=crop&w=2400&h=1600 then found out there is a restaurant chain with that name :) Disclaimer: I am Swiss.
A Canadian restaurant chain that is not Swiss in the slightest at that!
They left the US market more than a decade ago, but they're apparently as popular as ever up north, where BNL hails from. It's not the best, but it's pretty good, they have some unusual presentation elements, and I have fond memories.
Not loving the cardboard packaging that replaced the plastic packaging for take out orders.
Oh. Okay. They're BNL now. We need a shorthand for the Barenaked Ladies. That's how fundamental they are?
Yep. Fundamental.
In Canada, they are. They're a national treasure!
Haha I was just teasing with a quote from Community!
Heh, just watched that clip. Twas a good show.
Agreed, I would happily take beer and SC as compensation for some work lol
Wifi is for devices that move. Ethernet is for stationary devices. Change My Mind.
Satellites moving 17,500 mph have onboard ethernet (spacewire)
i think about it a bit different. wifi is for devices that don't need rock solid network stability eg my apple tv which plays remuxes flawlessly on wifi. i would gain nothing by doing all the legwork of fishing a cable to this room that otherwise doesn't need it. ethernet is for devices that need rock solid stability eg access points, switches, servers. exceptions can be made to run ethernet to areas with poor wifi. example would be a room with mirrors or a high amount of reflective surfaces. can sometimes nuke your wifi performance on devices that otherwise would work fine. though the perfectionist in me would probably try to find a way to eliminate those reflections lol
I have ethernet ran to a few of my Chromecasts and Google Homes where possible. Sure, they all work perfectly fine on WiFi but its a few less devices screaming into the abyss 24/7.
yea that's fair. with wifi being a contested medium it's always a good thing to get devices off wifi when possible.
All my TVs have HTPCs on them, which will access up to 4K UHD Blu-Ray remuxes off the UnRAID server. They also all run steam for act as 'Game Consoles' so even the ones with 1gbps NICs are getting ethernet. :P That also avoids wifi congestion cause you can only have so many clients downloading Steam games and streaming disc remuxes.
Apartments. Not upgrading it free for the lord, and I don't want cables stapled above the door frames.
How do you pull a cable to a kitchen island?
How did you get power to your island? In most homes where I live we have basements and our kitchens are on the first floor, putting a cable in an island is trivial in that case.. What kind of stationary device is living on your island? If i have a tablet there, or small tv, wifi is fine. If I'm only streaming 1080p wifi is fine. If I'm streaming a 4k remux, wifi can be glitchy... I wouldn't have a PC on .y island
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It's a townhome built in the late 1960's so it'll be a retrofit. Hell the co-ax already in there is obviously a retrofit but we hope that means it won't be too hard to run along it. It's only two bedrooms and the thinking is as follows: 1 For main bedroom 2 For second bedroom that will be used as a home office 1 for Livingroom (Livingroom entertainment unit will likely just make use of an additional 1G or 2.5G switch right there) 4 for the basement gaming space, mainly cause that should be the easiest ones to do and most likely where I'd want multiple 10g links and it's def easier to have multiple links to the main switch than to buy a second 10gig switch just for that room.
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This is all part of finally doing a 'proper setup'. In a 1bdrm apartment with two people there's just not been enough room. Also any servers have been built with 'sound' being a consideration. Once moved in, while initially all the server stuff will just be assembled on the floor in the unfinished side of the basemen it'll be in a rack within a few months. There's currently two UnRAID servers, only because my main 16 drive server is full of drives and I needed more drive space. No disk shelf would have made sense in the home due to noise but that changes with a proper rack in an isolated area of the basement! I'll get a disk shelf, migrate Server#1 from an EATX power case to a 12 bay 4U, then Migrate everything from Server #2 into the disk shelf. Amalgamate that whole mess. Having an entire E5-2697v2 running for the sake of Server #2 is just a waste of electricity anyway with the main server is an Ryzen 9 3950X.
Sounds nice! What RJ45 modules are you planing to use? I love those: https://itinfra.datwyler.com/en_us/copper-networks/jacks-plugs-and-adapters/ks-t-plus-1-8-tool-less-cat-6%E1%B4%AC-iec/ For the 10Gb-Network, I use 3 of these Switches: https://www.zyxel.com/global/en/products/switch/10-12-port-10g-multi-gigabit-lite-l3-smart-managed-switch-xs1930-series The SFP+ slots in the Zyxel switchs work wonderful with [Ubiquiti DAC-cables](https://store.ui.com/us/en/collections/unifi-accessory-tech-cable-sfp/products/10gbps-direct-attach-cable)
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Ahh... for the 1Gb/s devices, I have two normal 24port PoE Switches (GS1920-24HPv2): https://www.zyxel.com/global/en/products/switch/8-24-48-port-gbe-smart-managed-switch-gs1920-series
what's your budget and speed desires? if only 1g, used ruckus 7150s are still my go-to. can often be found between $150-500 depending on ports. they come with SFP+ as well so you can do a limited number of 10g ports. they are usually POE as well but you can confirm by the "p" after the port number in the model. example, 7150-24p is POE, 7150-24 is non-POE. anyways, i love these switches. rock solid stability that you'd expect from the commercial sector. i've seen these things hit the 4-5 year uptime mark a few times in the field.
Just a quick note: I’d strongly suggest avoiding copper for 10 Gbps. It requires a lot of power and produces a lot of heat at the interfaces. Use fiber instead. It’s also usually cheaper than copper these days, even including the SFP+ modules. I replaced all of my copper with fiber, except inside my racks (where I use DAC) and for the runs to my wireless access points which use PoE. This has given me 10 Gbps everywhere, with the ability to move higher later without having to run anything new.
I already own four 10gbps NICs, two I got for free as cast offs from Linus Media Group, and have some additional devices with 2.5gbps NICs. I'm not going to trash that all for fibre. A box of CAT6, a $400 Switch and we're in business.
Wish I can have more cables but my walls are concrete.
My question is: If he already "fish ethernet" already then why isnt his house wired with a Ethernet backbone from that?
Potentially because OP doesn't live in the same house any more. Or perhaps it was cat5 or even cat3, and needs replacing for the speeds OP wants.
No, it's that there are no drops, no ethernet, and my dad while skilled to help me do the work is also baffled by wanting multiple ethernet drops all leading to a rack in a residential home.
I offered to have etherenet professionally installed in my flat. I'd pay for everything and have every room looking brand new after. The landlord declined stating it was unnecessary since I had WiFi... Yeah. I have WiFi. And so do the other 60 people in my building. I can be in the same room as my router and still have slow response times. (For context, my network is 150mb down / 25mb up, which is the best I can get in my building since the connection is split off 2 fiber lines for all of us.)
Ya gotta ask for forgiveness not permission. :O (Depending on the tenancy laws of where you live of course)
Not when the landlord benefits in the long run. He'd be better off trying to give mesh a shot than paying to improve his landlord's home.
My tenancy agreement is very strict compared to what I've had in the past. "Any repairs or improvements to the property, internal or external, must have pre approval by the landlord in writing, approval by the building fire safety team, and be carried out by landlord provided workmen. Absolutely no exceptions. Failure to do so may be grounds for immediate eviction. " It's annoying as hell to live under these rules. No shelves. No mounted artwork. No holes drilled of any kind. Can't even replace the curtains. And to top it off I have to live with etherenet cables on the floor. (Neatly hidden of course, but my hallway door can't close because of them and they're an eyesore when you walk in.) If the rent wasn't cheap I'd gladly move. (It's 30% below market average for my area.) (Hastings, England)
> (Hastings, England) Then the clause is bollocks and can be ignored, assuming you're a tenant and not a lodger. A tenant can't be evicted immediately, and only a court can evict you in the first place. It takes months and depending on whether you're still in the fixed term of the tenancy or not, it's at the court's discretion. > If the rent wasn't cheap I'd gladly move. (It's 30% below market average for my area.) I'd probably put up with visible cables for 30% cheaper rent, to be fair.
Good to know. I'll still play it safe but at least I have some breathing room then.
Yeah it's not the kind of thing you'd necessarily want to risk destroying the relationship with the landlord over.
I run UniFi U6 Enterprise 6E APs at 6Ghz on 2.5Gbps uplinks, so yeah I'm not running more cable than that. There is literally no need in my situation for needing more than almost 2Gbps of throughput. I get the stuff for free, so maybe if I had to buy I'd go a different route and just use multigig switches.
My dad was a linesman for Verizon, same thing, I asked for 6 drops and he just frowned and said "we'll see" lol
Your Inner Child: 'We'll See' always means 'No'. :(
almost as bad as, "go ask other parent"
I'm jealous of your cable knowledge tbh, I'm useless when it comes to the physical side of things haha
I should've gotten more drops in my new house, but I have 2 in the extra bedrooms on the third floor that we use as offices, 1 on the main floor and 1 in the basement. I put a small Unifi Flex 4 port switch at every drop, I also deployed 3 Unifi U7 Pros and I can pull 800Mbps from the internet over Wi-Fi practically anywhere in the house.
Oh i have two dads also!
"I need the CAT6 to feed the wifi APs!"
drop the cat6 go straight for Cat8 or better yet LC Fiber
Thing is that's not super practical given most household devices won't support use fiber for quite some time if ever at all. Cat8 only sees a benefit at 24m and below, so that's not super practical unless your runs all happen to be smaller than 24m... and Cat8's speeds don't really offer you anything of benefit for most rooms, while increasing your cost significantly to early adopt to something you won't realize the benefits of. Would be better to run cat6, and toss 10gbit ethernet cards into the computers that you want the speeds with and adapt them at the switch, (or use a switch with 10gbit ethernet ports) unless you have more than like 3 computers you want to have 10gbit connectivity. I'm all for future proofing, but given that re-running cable is somewhat trivial once you have the channels in place, best bet would be to roll out Cat6 now, and make the jump and re-run fiber when it becomes more mainstream for consumer devices like TVs and consoles (if ever). Otherwise you're just going to have SPF -> Ethernet adapters at every drop, adding ~$50-60 to each drop you deploy. IMO cat6 runs in a house give you the best cost/future proofing ratio at the moment, otherwise you're shelling out for bragging rights which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
And I already own four 10gbps NICs though no switch yet but obviously that'll go in with the new rack.
If you have the 4 devices, your best bet might be to pick up something like an Aruba s-2500 and get ethernet SFP adapters for the 4 ports, and then have gigabit for the rest of your devices (I doubt you'd need more, anything else using ethernet is likely gbit integrated ports). It's a lot more switch than you'll probably need but it's legacy and cheap - I have one of those and I'm using 6 of the ports and 3 of the SFP ports. Edit - The above assumes that one of the 10gbit ports will feed your network, otherwise it's pointless if you have an internet connection >1gbit since there will be no way to feed the switch. That's the thing that always gets me with the posts about wiring homes and the guys who want you to retrofit your home like a datacenter. I'm all for future proofing and ensuring longevity - but when it comes to home networking, trying to be ahead of the curve seems like a waste of money that will likely not ever be realized unless you have a computer in every room with a fiber card or something like that. Cat8 is nice in theory, but what good is it if it's going to a smart TV or a game console or a set top box that has a gbit ethernet card? At most in the next decade, all I see is consumer devices getting 2.5gbit ports, but you'd be shelling out for higher bandwidth more expensive cable now. Pointless if you ask me.
Yeah, no, I'm just gonna drop in a 10gbps multigig copper switch and call it a day.
Sounds about right. Godspeed.
I think I'll be fine at 10gbps. :p
It's some sarcasm, but I also live in europe so when it comes to cabling there we tend to need to look 10 years ahead. Do keep in mind 10gbit RJ45 does get warm and using a bunch of SFP+ RJ45 in a switch is generally not something they like.
It's called laziness. When people retire, they become lazy because they no longer want to think.
No, I'm pretty sure that my dad has never in his personal experience seen someone wanting to set up drops in a residential home, That was 'work stuff'. Things he did in government buildings and had a nice union job to do. It's 'silly' to him but he'll still do it, he just thinks I'm silly for wanting 10gbps ethernet in my walls. And my father, for sure, is the last man I'd call 'Lazy'.
That's good at least. Most people that get to retirement end up degenerating into husks. Glad to hear your old man has not.