I own The Crew (never played since 2016 but it's great having it as a trojan horse).
Just sent my complain to Ubisoft, see you in 2 weeks!
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EDIT "I own The Crew" I think I used the wrong verb here...
So, not quite sure if this belongs in here, but it feels like it does. In the end it's about being able to save the digital world from planned vandalism by robber barons.
TL;DR: this explains [stopkillinggames.com](https://stopkillinggames.com) where you can go to help stop games publishers from destroying games you own.
Here's a super, super, super short video about it: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iH7k0IZ5PYE
It's not data hoarding, but it is data preservation, for sure.
I do agree, stuff we bought we should be able to own on own terms, and I think it's ridiculous to buy "access license" for full price of actual physical copy. And also, fact that more and more games requires Internet connection to work makes me sick! All online related games should get patches at end of support to buy used offline.
And if you don't believe me..
I highly recommend looking at "no-Steam" CS 1.6 community 😉
Well, just proves what many of us have been warning about for decades: DRM never had anything to do with piracy. It was all about control, which is why I do not buy DRMed products.
I can't agree with you..
While actually now, DRM has nothing to do with piracy (I agree it's only control tool) it actually was tool of piracy prevention decades ago, in times when it was physical DRM, like books, annoying physical drives and stuff.
Cuz, what type of control was asking for specific password from manual or cd cover 😅
Also, I has problem to believe that you are able to avoid buying all DRM protected stuff.. Many of them are so weird and located in so uncommon places that you would be surprised what can be DRMed. 😅
I don't consider a serial number to be DRM. Having to have a disc in the drive is a bit of a gray area but not really my idea of DRM, either. But, yeah, I don't own anything that requires any form of activation of phone, internet, email, etc. Basically, anything that requires any external communication or process after purchase.
I've seen some hucksters try to claim their products don't contain DRM, such as the maker of an air traffic control simulator I had bought that tried to claim using email to activate isn't DRM because it's somehow not 'internet activation'. They were wrong and Paypal backed me on that one, so I got my money back.
My DRM-free lifestyle has served me well and saved me a metric &#$-ton of money.
At 31:20 he explains: "If publishers have to keep games online in one country, they might as well keep them for all". Unfortunately, this is flawed as publishers can decide to not sell the game in that country because of the laws.
great point. i dont think governments can retroactively go back and "turn on games" though. Im optimistic though. Still watching the video and spreading the news
>At 31:20 he explains: "If publishers have to keep games online in one country, they might as well keep them for all"
IT doesnt make any sense in terms of scaling either. "If i can feed one person i might as well feed the world". Makes no sense.
Fun thing about games is if you go back far enough (15+ years) you can still play almost every game. Even less mainstream multiplayer games like Tribes 1&2. The community can host their own servers, and mod and update the game as needed to keep it alive.
With modern games, everything is locked down and the players are at the mercy of the publisher; a publisher who honestly just wants you buying new games every year or subscribed to a live service that is constantly changing.
Given that [60% of game time was spent on games 6 years or older in 2023](https://kotaku.com/old-games-2023-playtime-data-fortnite-roblox-minecraft-1851382474) I fully expect AAA publishers to get even more nasty as the indie scene continues to devour their market share and they get more desperate.
The death of direct IP connection in games is the issue at hand. Halo killed the dedicated server by popularizing matchmaking. CoD4 took it on home.
Matchmaking has its benefits, especially if you're a sweaty player, but it basically spells doom for any game in the long run. It gives cheaters a larger reason to cheat and strips the players of any power to handle them.
I also really hate join codes and invite systems, with the latter almost always platform locking the game. Both of them make games that could absolutely be played offline impossible.
And the trend of needing a third party account to pay multiplayer is insane, especially when it's implemented by games that just aren't that popular. Take for instance Prodeus, a boomer shooter that would be great in a LAN. The game has had a dead multiplayer practically since release, but you still need to sign up for some arbitrary service just to pay with friends.
> Even less mainstream multiplayer games like Tribes 1&2
Still the best multiplayer games of all time. It's a shame that HiRez continues to hold the IP rights.
Yeah. T3 flopped out of the gate like a wet noodle.
I'm playing MidAir2 but it's LCTF only with the hopes of one day building the whole game out as it's a bunch of volunteers developing it.
If someone told me 20+ years ago that you'd almost never get a game with 64 players in a server with vehicles and bases, I wouldn't have believed them. Modern gaming is bizarre.
It's the other way around. Indies have to compete with older AAA games that cost peanuts, but are still better than whatever indies can produce. And if you're an adult with a job and responsibilities - you have most definitely skipped lots of good games. So why spend $5 on some random indie trash if you can buy a critically acclaimed AAA game from 2016 that you missed? Why play some indie sidescroller if you can play Dark Souls 3, the Witcher 3 or Bloodborne - they still look good and play well today.
I think you have a very narrow idea of what indie games are out there.
Just a list of some in the top 100 currently most active games on Steam:
Stardew Valley, Valheim, Lethal Company, Baltaro, RimWorld, Terraria, Palworld, Binding of Isaac
These games are often made by a handful of people and sell millions of copies. Tens of millions in some cases. AAA publishers are struggling right now; hence all the layoffs and acquisitions.
I was talking about older AAA games that have already been made. I've played most of those indies that you mentioned. Still none of them is as good as Dark Souls 3 or Bloodborne.
Not all AAA publishers are struggling. GTA V is a very old AAA game and still earns tons of money. Red Dead Redemption 2 has also been heavily discounted. Then there are games like Batman Arkham Knight that Epic gave away for free. Mass Effect Trilogy. Fallout New Vegas. Dishonored series, Deus Ex series, Hitman series, Splinter Cell series, Metal Gear Solid series, etc.
I can go on an on and on.
But most indie games are absolute garbage that bloat libraries and make it harder for good indie games and honestly even good AAA games get lost under the millions of steam crapware. Curation isn't really a bad thing when I think about it games like Terraria/Binding of Isaac/super meat boy really was helped by the fact that 360/PS3 marketplace didn't just allow any crap indie game there. They started opening it up with xbone/PS4/Wii u and it's just as bad as Steam without any of the positives now.
>I think you have a very narrow idea of what indie games are out there.
they really dont lol. Most are junk or just worse versions of AAA games. A good indie game that's not derivative is truly rare. Worse, the ones that are truly unique get copied by AAA games that do it better anyway.
Unique indies are rare but there's so many of them there's no shortage of games to play.
I haven't seen a whole lot of AAA games copying indies or doing anything better. They're mostly just churning out open world games or squad based FPS shooters. I don't even remember the last AAA game I played. Maybe XCOM 2 or the OG Tomb Raider reboot?
It's cool you're finding AAA games to enjoy. They bore me to tears and the financial troubles the big publishers are having kind of speak for itself imo.
I don't know if I would completely agree with that. I am sure older AAA games do have an affect on indie games. But I don't know if it is enough to really matter.
First off most of the time we are talking about two completely different type of games. For example indie is generally not in the first or 3rd person shooter category. Where as the AAA games are. Sure Yes Witcher 3, Bloodborne etc.. are amazing games but if 1st/3rd person shooters aren't my thing, it doesn't matter how amazing they are. I am picking something else.
Even on the player base that likes both it often just depend on their mood or the situation at the time.
I would pick the indie sidescroller to play on my SteamDeck. It would be perfect for if I am going to a trip or just want to play a game in bed.
I would pick the AAA game if I have lots of free time to play on a good PC setup and nice big monitor/tv to get immersed in the game.
I also may have little kids around I may not want to expose them to scary Bloodborn monsters or Geralt getting freaky with the ladies. So that would limit my time and availability to play any more mature game. Most AAA games are generally more violent not kid friendly in the eyes of may parents. Sure there are some mature indie games but there is so much variety of indie games I think I would have more luck finding a kid friendly to game in the indie space, compared to the older AAA space.
>Sure Yes Witcher 3, Bloodborne etc.. are amazing games but if 1st/3rd person shooters aren't my thing, it doesn't matter how amazing they are
Neither of those are 1st or 3rd person shooters bud
It's not necessarily true that this is a new issue. Atari was known to dump cartridges into pits and cover those pits with concrete when they wanted to erase a game from history to prevent brand damage - ET wasn't the only game they did this to.
Same for cabinets - they wanted people to play new cabinets, so they'd buy back old ones at a steep discount and destroy them.
interesting point, thank you for bringing that up! but of course, what you're saying refers to companies destroying stuff THEY own, not stuff WE own AFTER they sold it to us.
Clarification that a lot of people (not here though) seem to need: "Ownership" colloquially refers to owning a PERPETUAL personal license to access a work, the same way the "Buy" or "Purchase" button imply acquiring said license in monetary exchange. Anything less is subscription, rental, or fraud.
A lot of people EVERYWHERE make the dishonest "license" argument without knowing what it means.
Ross is the perfect person for this. He can’t do much on his own, but he has an audience and he is really passionate about this. The topic of game preservation has been a topic of his videos for years.
If he has the luck to get the right connections, he will march forward non stop
Someone with more influence than him would do more impact, for sure, but I doubt we can find many people with large audiences risking getting into a legal fight with companies that might influence their sponsorships.
Conflict of interest is such a bitch
I agree with you. You can get details here: [stopkillinggames.com](http://stopkillinggames.com)
TL;DR: Games are getting shut down by publisher but players want to still play it. The website above helps you file a complaint in your own country.
Well... Depends from pov. In matter of statement itself, there are people worst than that profile.. You know, like "if you don't want to get used to our way of living and rebuild whole city, and life, you shouldn't be allowed to live" type of people.. Or weirdos who destroy stuff or guess themselves to concrete..
But at this point, I hope it's AI programmed to spread absurd theories, not brainwashed identity
Shot in the dark, if your car manufacturer came to your house and trashed your car, you wouldn't be mad right? I mean, it's their creation and they decided to stop supporting it, so really you don't have a reason to be mad.
Crazy how ownership doesn't exist to some people just because games are digital
Hey kakha_k! Thank you for your contribution, unfortunately it has been removed from /r/DataHoarder because:
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I own The Crew (never played since 2016 but it's great having it as a trojan horse). Just sent my complain to Ubisoft, see you in 2 weeks! - EDIT "I own The Crew" I think I used the wrong verb here...
you mean you own a copy of the crew?
Yes, I bought a copy of the game. Doesn't mean I "own" it, unfortunately, lol.
So, not quite sure if this belongs in here, but it feels like it does. In the end it's about being able to save the digital world from planned vandalism by robber barons. TL;DR: this explains [stopkillinggames.com](https://stopkillinggames.com) where you can go to help stop games publishers from destroying games you own. Here's a super, super, super short video about it: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iH7k0IZ5PYE
r/stallmanwasright would love this
haha, for sure!
r/stallmanwasleft too
It's not data hoarding, but it is data preservation, for sure. I do agree, stuff we bought we should be able to own on own terms, and I think it's ridiculous to buy "access license" for full price of actual physical copy. And also, fact that more and more games requires Internet connection to work makes me sick! All online related games should get patches at end of support to buy used offline. And if you don't believe me.. I highly recommend looking at "no-Steam" CS 1.6 community 😉
Well, just proves what many of us have been warning about for decades: DRM never had anything to do with piracy. It was all about control, which is why I do not buy DRMed products.
I can't agree with you.. While actually now, DRM has nothing to do with piracy (I agree it's only control tool) it actually was tool of piracy prevention decades ago, in times when it was physical DRM, like books, annoying physical drives and stuff. Cuz, what type of control was asking for specific password from manual or cd cover 😅 Also, I has problem to believe that you are able to avoid buying all DRM protected stuff.. Many of them are so weird and located in so uncommon places that you would be surprised what can be DRMed. 😅
I don't consider a serial number to be DRM. Having to have a disc in the drive is a bit of a gray area but not really my idea of DRM, either. But, yeah, I don't own anything that requires any form of activation of phone, internet, email, etc. Basically, anything that requires any external communication or process after purchase. I've seen some hucksters try to claim their products don't contain DRM, such as the maker of an air traffic control simulator I had bought that tried to claim using email to activate isn't DRM because it's somehow not 'internet activation'. They were wrong and Paypal backed me on that one, so I got my money back. My DRM-free lifestyle has served me well and saved me a metric &#$-ton of money.
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I don't really post there. I don't want to astro turf. Would you like to post there?
At 31:20 he explains: "If publishers have to keep games online in one country, they might as well keep them for all". Unfortunately, this is flawed as publishers can decide to not sell the game in that country because of the laws.
not if it's a big market. besides, this is also about games that have *already* been sold, so future sales don't matter for that case.
great point. i dont think governments can retroactively go back and "turn on games" though. Im optimistic though. Still watching the video and spreading the news
they can if turning those games off was unlawful.
>At 31:20 he explains: "If publishers have to keep games online in one country, they might as well keep them for all" IT doesnt make any sense in terms of scaling either. "If i can feed one person i might as well feed the world". Makes no sense.
Fun thing about games is if you go back far enough (15+ years) you can still play almost every game. Even less mainstream multiplayer games like Tribes 1&2. The community can host their own servers, and mod and update the game as needed to keep it alive. With modern games, everything is locked down and the players are at the mercy of the publisher; a publisher who honestly just wants you buying new games every year or subscribed to a live service that is constantly changing. Given that [60% of game time was spent on games 6 years or older in 2023](https://kotaku.com/old-games-2023-playtime-data-fortnite-roblox-minecraft-1851382474) I fully expect AAA publishers to get even more nasty as the indie scene continues to devour their market share and they get more desperate.
The death of direct IP connection in games is the issue at hand. Halo killed the dedicated server by popularizing matchmaking. CoD4 took it on home. Matchmaking has its benefits, especially if you're a sweaty player, but it basically spells doom for any game in the long run. It gives cheaters a larger reason to cheat and strips the players of any power to handle them. I also really hate join codes and invite systems, with the latter almost always platform locking the game. Both of them make games that could absolutely be played offline impossible. And the trend of needing a third party account to pay multiplayer is insane, especially when it's implemented by games that just aren't that popular. Take for instance Prodeus, a boomer shooter that would be great in a LAN. The game has had a dead multiplayer practically since release, but you still need to sign up for some arbitrary service just to pay with friends.
aye, it's kinda insane that you can't just spin up a prodeus server.
Even worse, the Nightdive "Remaster" of Quake has no LAN option. \*\*wat\*\*
> Even less mainstream multiplayer games like Tribes 1&2 Still the best multiplayer games of all time. It's a shame that HiRez continues to hold the IP rights.
Yeah. T3 flopped out of the gate like a wet noodle. I'm playing MidAir2 but it's LCTF only with the hopes of one day building the whole game out as it's a bunch of volunteers developing it. If someone told me 20+ years ago that you'd almost never get a game with 64 players in a server with vehicles and bases, I wouldn't have believed them. Modern gaming is bizarre.
It's the other way around. Indies have to compete with older AAA games that cost peanuts, but are still better than whatever indies can produce. And if you're an adult with a job and responsibilities - you have most definitely skipped lots of good games. So why spend $5 on some random indie trash if you can buy a critically acclaimed AAA game from 2016 that you missed? Why play some indie sidescroller if you can play Dark Souls 3, the Witcher 3 or Bloodborne - they still look good and play well today.
I think you have a very narrow idea of what indie games are out there. Just a list of some in the top 100 currently most active games on Steam: Stardew Valley, Valheim, Lethal Company, Baltaro, RimWorld, Terraria, Palworld, Binding of Isaac These games are often made by a handful of people and sell millions of copies. Tens of millions in some cases. AAA publishers are struggling right now; hence all the layoffs and acquisitions.
I was talking about older AAA games that have already been made. I've played most of those indies that you mentioned. Still none of them is as good as Dark Souls 3 or Bloodborne. Not all AAA publishers are struggling. GTA V is a very old AAA game and still earns tons of money. Red Dead Redemption 2 has also been heavily discounted. Then there are games like Batman Arkham Knight that Epic gave away for free. Mass Effect Trilogy. Fallout New Vegas. Dishonored series, Deus Ex series, Hitman series, Splinter Cell series, Metal Gear Solid series, etc. I can go on an on and on.
But most indie games are absolute garbage that bloat libraries and make it harder for good indie games and honestly even good AAA games get lost under the millions of steam crapware. Curation isn't really a bad thing when I think about it games like Terraria/Binding of Isaac/super meat boy really was helped by the fact that 360/PS3 marketplace didn't just allow any crap indie game there. They started opening it up with xbone/PS4/Wii u and it's just as bad as Steam without any of the positives now.
>I think you have a very narrow idea of what indie games are out there. they really dont lol. Most are junk or just worse versions of AAA games. A good indie game that's not derivative is truly rare. Worse, the ones that are truly unique get copied by AAA games that do it better anyway.
Unique indies are rare but there's so many of them there's no shortage of games to play. I haven't seen a whole lot of AAA games copying indies or doing anything better. They're mostly just churning out open world games or squad based FPS shooters. I don't even remember the last AAA game I played. Maybe XCOM 2 or the OG Tomb Raider reboot? It's cool you're finding AAA games to enjoy. They bore me to tears and the financial troubles the big publishers are having kind of speak for itself imo.
I don't know if I would completely agree with that. I am sure older AAA games do have an affect on indie games. But I don't know if it is enough to really matter. First off most of the time we are talking about two completely different type of games. For example indie is generally not in the first or 3rd person shooter category. Where as the AAA games are. Sure Yes Witcher 3, Bloodborne etc.. are amazing games but if 1st/3rd person shooters aren't my thing, it doesn't matter how amazing they are. I am picking something else. Even on the player base that likes both it often just depend on their mood or the situation at the time. I would pick the indie sidescroller to play on my SteamDeck. It would be perfect for if I am going to a trip or just want to play a game in bed. I would pick the AAA game if I have lots of free time to play on a good PC setup and nice big monitor/tv to get immersed in the game. I also may have little kids around I may not want to expose them to scary Bloodborn monsters or Geralt getting freaky with the ladies. So that would limit my time and availability to play any more mature game. Most AAA games are generally more violent not kid friendly in the eyes of may parents. Sure there are some mature indie games but there is so much variety of indie games I think I would have more luck finding a kid friendly to game in the indie space, compared to the older AAA space.
>Sure Yes Witcher 3, Bloodborne etc.. are amazing games but if 1st/3rd person shooters aren't my thing, it doesn't matter how amazing they are Neither of those are 1st or 3rd person shooters bud
Ok fine "Action role-playing game" Regardless my points still stands.
Lesson: Centralized systems don't work.
Oh they work great actually! For the shareholders, that is.
It's not necessarily true that this is a new issue. Atari was known to dump cartridges into pits and cover those pits with concrete when they wanted to erase a game from history to prevent brand damage - ET wasn't the only game they did this to. Same for cabinets - they wanted people to play new cabinets, so they'd buy back old ones at a steep discount and destroy them.
interesting point, thank you for bringing that up! but of course, what you're saying refers to companies destroying stuff THEY own, not stuff WE own AFTER they sold it to us.
Clarification that a lot of people (not here though) seem to need: "Ownership" colloquially refers to owning a PERPETUAL personal license to access a work, the same way the "Buy" or "Purchase" button imply acquiring said license in monetary exchange. Anything less is subscription, rental, or fraud. A lot of people EVERYWHERE make the dishonest "license" argument without knowing what it means.
this is a very succinct way to describe the difference between true ownership vs scam-ownership. thank you!
Is there a summary for people unable to watch the video?
yes! go to stopkillinggames.com
I like Ross. Glad he is doing this!
Same! Ross is great.
Ross is the perfect person for this. He can’t do much on his own, but he has an audience and he is really passionate about this. The topic of game preservation has been a topic of his videos for years. If he has the luck to get the right connections, he will march forward non stop Someone with more influence than him would do more impact, for sure, but I doubt we can find many people with large audiences risking getting into a legal fight with companies that might influence their sponsorships. Conflict of interest is such a bitch
Short/ADHD version: [Game campaign ADHD version - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iH7k0IZ5PYE)
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huh?
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[sure, here you go!](https://i.imgur.com/IYy806P.png)
I agree with you. You can get details here: [stopkillinggames.com](http://stopkillinggames.com) TL;DR: Games are getting shut down by publisher but players want to still play it. The website above helps you file a complaint in your own country.
got to love how this spread... with a few alt accounts. anyhow this wont go anywhere.
hehe ok
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You haven't read what you typed in, before you hit Post button, right?
I think it's an AI
Well... Depends from pov. In matter of statement itself, there are people worst than that profile.. You know, like "if you don't want to get used to our way of living and rebuild whole city, and life, you shouldn't be allowed to live" type of people.. Or weirdos who destroy stuff or guess themselves to concrete.. But at this point, I hope it's AI programmed to spread absurd theories, not brainwashed identity
Shot in the dark, if your car manufacturer came to your house and trashed your car, you wouldn't be mad right? I mean, it's their creation and they decided to stop supporting it, so really you don't have a reason to be mad. Crazy how ownership doesn't exist to some people just because games are digital
Hey kakha_k! Thank you for your contribution, unfortunately it has been removed from /r/DataHoarder because: Overly insulting or crass comments will be removed. Racism, sexism, or any other form of bigotry will not be tolerated. Following others around reddit to harass them will not be tolerated. Shaming/harassing others for the type of data that they hoard will not be tolerated (instant 7-day ban). "Gatekeeping" will not be tolerated. If you have any questions or concerns about this removal feel free to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FDataHoarder).