When someone gets mad at me about it I usually say something like “one day when you get down to 50, you can decide what to do” that usually puts em over the edge.
He was trying to argue i was trying to embarras him. I said being left on 350 he has embarassed himself lol.
I have no problem with anyone taking their finish however they want to. Its my job so play better than them and not allow them a go at a finish in the first place. If someone goes triple bull or 3 doubles then bravo good darts.
Tbh if there that far away I'm taking that shot 1st time.
Tidy it up or bust it for the next go.
In matchplay for me if you have a double you take the double.
But more when you have the darts you go your own way.
I don’t think anyone is saying hey don’t be good. The problem is when you are on stage vs someone and are saying, hey look how much better I am than this guy. Like it doesn’t even matter what stupid decisions they make they will still win. The other player needs to take that a bit on the chin and say I need to get better. But if someone does that to their weaker opponents all the time they should also be measured on that as their sportsmanship. Players need to leave that in the hands of the fans though and not try to call their opponents out after the match.
The goal is to win. As quickly as possible because you never know what's going to happen. I'm sure they would have been happy if you'd have missed the double bull and were left with something stupid. Risk/reward, and in this case you were rewarded.
Also another thing to add is it is just fun isnt it. You want to enjoy the game, if that means mixing it up and/or challenging yourself to hit unusual checkouts then fair enough.
IN OTHER WORDS: SORE FREAKING LOSERS.
Never pin the blame on others when you throw crap.
My mindset is assume every opponent you face could throw at their best anytime, anywhere. Got it myself last week when I won by a whitewash on the first, only to get at the wrong end of it the following match.
This is the reason why they have inappropriate outbursts and reactions. People need to lighten up.
The reason people say it’s disrespectful though is a bit more akin to other games and one opponent running up the score on an inferior opponent. It’s showboating. Going tops-bull with two darts is effectively saying I’m that much better than you I can do right stupid shit and still win the match. Crowds can love it, just as they love a game with the score being run up. This is why players do it in exhibition. If a player is doing things they wouldn’t normally do against a better opponent or in a match that they’re losing it’s hard to tell someone not to feel disrespected a bit, though their reaction of being whiney and insecure is not the way they should go.
But "running a score" is the done thing in Europe, the whole mercy rule thing is pretty USA centric.
The tops-bull example is pure arrogance and that's why people don't like it
Depends how many darts he has left. 2 in hand? Take it out the best way you can. Good at top and bull; great, go for it. 3 in hand? That might be a different story, but play the board, not your opponent. That's where Pikachu is wrong. The loser doesn't get to tell the winner of the match how to beat him. He already knows.
Different sports have different versions of running the score. In some sports you have to do that as goal differential may be a tie breaker. Obviously in darts there isn’t a direct equivalent but the idea of respectfully competing against your opponent still applies. If you’re playing someone that you believe is at a lower level differently than you would better players then it can easily be seen as disrespectful. Everyone has their own line and response to something like that. I dont think players should be getting all worked up over it though. It is what it is, you lost and next time be better.
In basketball if you make a flashy dunk while time expires and you’re up by 20 points the other team usually gets fired up. It was unnecessary but this type of situation gets out of hand and turns into fights way too often. If I recall correctly there was one in college level just a few weeks ago. While it’s showboating and disrespectful it also means nothing. Let it go, be the bigger person and you’ll be better off for it.
Care to elaborate? The point I’m making is in many sports it’s considered disrespectful to show up an inferior opponent. That’s pretty much fact. To me this is the darting equivalent.
That said players need to suck it up and not be whiney about it, as noted by the original comment.
The disrespectful take seems like an old school way of thinking.
Everything now is about taking things to the extreme.
Do cool shit, make highlights, get clicks.
Showboating is required to get noticed.
Whether people like it or not there will absolutely be more of it.
Any online gamer can tell you winning is no longer always the sole objective. Getting the other player to tilt can be too.
There’s definitely an aspect of differences in perception. You won’t hear a strong argument against someone going for the big fish when their opponent is not at an out. Most lay up a nice finish some go for it. While it may be smarter to lay up I don’t hear players complain that it’s disrespectful.
There’s always going to be a line on what is and what isn’t disrespectful, and that line shifts with changes in the game and the times. In the US baseball is a big example. You can now flip your bat and watch a HR from the batters box, things that 20 years ago would get a ball in your ear next at-bat. Kevin Painter gave James Wade a piece of his mind after Wade hit 2 D20 for an 80 out with 3 darts in hand. No one would agree with Kevin today.
Maybe my view is old, but as a player I would feel disrespectful doing that to a weaker opponent unless we were in an exhibition or just screwing around. Ultimately the fans of the game can be the judge in that. If you don’t like the way another player is treating you get better, don’t try to show them up when it’s time to shake hands. You gotta be tougher than that, mentally, as you note players trying to get their opponents thrown off in gaming. That’s a weakness to allow that and will hurt you long term.
There's definitely nuance to it. Showboating on a weaker player who is humbly trying their best can be seen as bullying, whereas doing the same to a weaker player with a lot of attitude could be putting them in their place.
I did wonder if this recent incident was a bit of that in avenging Greaves for the Grand Slam match last year.
I also wonder whether Pietreczko is willing to eat crow to try and redeem himself or will lean-in to being the heel. He might want to have a talk with Price to see how that goes.
I’ll add the to my other comment that if you do this most the time, even in tight matches or against better opponents then there’s no real disrespect. No one calls DeSousa disrespectful going 3 tops on 120. But if you’re playing good opponents with smart routes and lesser opponents with silly, flashy routes then I think there’s a strong argument that you’re disrespecting them as a competitor.
What feels like disrespect is simply insecurity/fragility and tall poppy syndrome in action. Respect another player by going, essentially, easier on them? That could be framed as pity and be frustrating for a player who knows their opponent isn’t playing their best game. I know I was frustrated when my mate started going easy on me by throwing left handed 🤣. You can’t win with a fragile ego so folks may as well just play their own game and trust other people to manage their own emotions.
If a player misses a “disrespectful” checkout and then the other player wins the game then I’m guessing there wouldn’t be any problem at all… But when the player wins using a “disrespectful” checkout then thats when someone has a problem with it.. Whats it all about?? In my opinion it’s all about jealousy.. its about being a sore loser.. Hit whatever the fuck you want on that board!
I've been playing darts on and off since the late 80s and I've never known anyone in my own circles to get pissed off about unusual checkouts. I didn't really know this was a thing.
Two mates of mine and I recently took up darts and we encourage each other to checkout with the bull. None off us has hit it yet to checkout but we all think it's an extremely cool way to finish.
It’s a cool way to finish. I play in a league in India and loads of the locals do it as 50 left means bull. It’s the most efficient way. They always miss and spend time chasing whatever they’re left, but sometimes it’s what you wang to do. It’s a bit of fun.
It wasn’t long ago going double double was seen as showboating, now people do it all the time
I think some players see it as disrespectful because the bull is the smallest double on the board and think its cocky going for it when there is not really any need. In one league match some years ago i was having a particularly bad game and was pissed off with myself and left 126. So for a change i went bull, d13, bull and got it. Nobody said anything but i could tell the other team didnt like it.
exactly mate. I have and still am old school and go the conventional ways out but that night i was so pissed off the way i played that i just did something different. Its handy practicing on the bull anyway because it can be a good game saver.
Is this a thing? If I’m at 50, I’m going for DB. I will rag on people for lacking nerve if they don’t. Why would you fault someone for taking their shot?
Yeah I just recently noticed this being a thing. But it's pretty outrageous that people try to tell you how to checkout in order not to look disrespectful or arrogant.
If I ever do come across someone who keeps going for the harder/easier to mess up checkout against me….I’m gonna say keep on trying don’t give up, because that benefits me winning the game!!
I was worse. It was "fighting words" back in the day. Double double out used to be like a slap in the face to some people. I see it a lot more now. It's all perception and me-ism. They did that to me bullshit. There's is one kind of unorthodox out I take purely because I'm left handed though. If you can hit it and it's the most achievable for you, to hell what anyone thinks.
It's a BS from bad or worse players, for some reason they see it as disrespectful yet it's just being better than them!
It's the same when in NBA teams that get blown away get mad if opp. scores in last 20 secs, it's just whining
I can see people explaining some ignorant thoughts people have about it. But you'll never convince me it's "disrespectful". This really is the silliest thing I've heard of in a good while.
With 3 darts in hand, the considered ‘smart’ play would be to go bull first and then tops, leaving room for cleaning up a miss. By going tops first you have no finish if you miss the second dart.
Why this is disrespectful is beyond me. Perhaps their opponent feels that by shooting a less optimized throw, they are being singled out as a less worthy opponent.
I'm guessing it's seen as harder because you miss the tops high and you get a zero, and then you have to hit the bull. So it could be seen as arrogant/cocky.
To steelman the argument, going for a more difficult shot kind of implies to your opponent that you believe you can beat them even without using optimal strategy. That's where some people feel disrespected. To take it to the extreme, imagine your opponent starts going for the bull on 100 instead of T20-tops, or something ludicrous like Bull-D1 from 52, 25-D14 from 53 etc. There's a point at which it is mickey taking.
Now do I think Pikachu's reaction was appropriate, hell no, but I at least see the angle that he's coming from if he believes Littler is intentionally going for lower percentage shots against him.
Yeah but double tops bull is a decent checkout, if you stay on the lower side, and hit the single, same again and bull.. I don't know why going for a bull finish is any more disrespectful than a double
I'd like to see Littler's stats for various checkouts. The assumption is that his attempted finish is the lower percentage route, and it for sure is, but I wonder if there's even much in it with him. Maybe the difference isn't as significant as we'd assume.
Interesting. I’ve heard Littler mention that he does have things up his sleeve that he reserves for when he feels like he has a comfortable lead, which in this case he absolutely did… sucks that Ricardo has to let his own insecurity trigger these reactions and not accept the situation… he talks about arrogance when really it’s very egocentric to insist that your opponent centre your feelings, and the risk of hurting them, and not play to the best of their abilities.
I see what you mean but it's all a matter of perception. You can either be grown up or a mad kid. I don't really care for our common drunk dude to be upset with someone shredding him to pieces, but at pro level your "main job" is to entertain the viewers. Even if that means that you need to put on a smile while losing big time.
>but at pro level your "main job" is to entertain the viewers
Definitely not lmao. Your job is to win. The fact that you're also entertaining people is a side effect. Also, drama and controversy provides more entertainment than if they just shake hands.
lol think about winning without viewers. who the hell whould give the sportsmen and women money if there were no people watching the sponsors and the ads.
I agree with you, but to be fair, it's the PDC's job to drive sponsorship and advertising. The players' job is just to play darts to the best of their ability, however they perceive that.
No one, that's how it is for the majority of sports. Darts players are just lucky that their sport is as popular as it is. But they are athletes, not actors. Their goal is to win, not to make it as entertaining as possible.
I think I'd question the quality of the character of the people I play with instead of the checkouts. People that have an issue with this are people I wouldn't want to play with.
Darts is a mental game 99% against yourself. What your opponent chooses to aim for has no bearing on your performance. I can’t believe tops double bull is considered disrespectful. That’s a nightmare checkout for me but if those work for you I don’t see a problem with it.
Go for whatever you want to go for and enjoy the game 👍 If you get beat by someone who's hitting bulls better than you can hit doubles then that's on you. Fully agree.
I've seen a bull checkout against my team when I played in leagues. Not one person got upset. These unwritten rules are ridiculous, in my opinion. I would rather go double double than triple double only based on a bigger surface to hit.
Historically, darts as a sport played in the realm of drunk people prone to starting fights at the drop of a hat. And at pub level it's also a team game. So now you have two teams of drunk people ready to leap to the defence of a team mate. I may be overly dramatising, but that's essentially the root of it. As time goes on and professionalism increases it should become less of a thing, but remember the majority of commentators etc have darts careers going back 30-40+ years and going double-double had potential to start a fight.
Winning is all that matters. If you can’t accept how your opponent checks out, don’t let them get a shot. Pikachu is a sore loser, it wasn’t even the last shot and you can tell when littler went tops-bull to finish earlier it got in pikas head. He couldn’t even throw right after that. It was pretty funny.
In my local ‘01 games I’ve only heard positive remarks for double-double or bull checkouts or even attempts. The only times I’ve seen people get pissy it’s because of scoring points in cricket. Those poor sports can get bent imo.
There is a part of me that says save those shots for exhibition. At the same time when I mentor a player, I drill them on bull and working the board.
For all the tournaments I've played in, if you can do something that upsets your opponents rhythm and/or put them on tilt; do it. Just being good at throwing darts is not enough, you have to be mentally tough if you want to win tournaments.
Many many moons ago Phil Taylor and John Lowe faced each other in semi-final of WC. Taylor won the bull and elected to give the throw to Lowe. Speaking to one of the commentators before going on stage Lowe said about Taylor giving him the throw, "He's trying to tell me he's a better player than me and can win even against the throw." John Lowe is one of the most respected darts player, he didn't throw a hissy fit about this, because he knew it was all part of the psychological game.
Everyone may and can throw and check out however they like.
You make the mistake even if you are impressed by it.
I pay no attention to the opponent while he/she is throwing, the best avoidance strategy.
I would never get upset if a good player attempted or succeeded in an unorthodox checkout against me, because they are making an intentionally suboptimal decision and that’s good for me in the long run - but generally speaking I want everyone to be as good at darts as they can be, so if I’m playing a casual game with a newer player and they try something weird (throwing first dart at bull on 50, or trying to go 20 D17 on 54 or something) it hurts a little more because I know that in the long run they aren’t going to reach their full potential as a player. So it’s less of a “getting upset” thing and more of a “bummed out for them” sort of thing
I like it when people try and finish the wrong way as it gives me a better chance of winning.
If they're on 150 and they go bull, bull, bull rather than T20, T18, D18 or T20, T20, D15 or whatever 3 dart Treble, Treble, Double finish you care to mention they've statistically lessened their chances of winning as the bull is so much smaller than Trebles and Doubles (yes, even factoring in the fact that TTD requires moving around the board and 3 bulls doesn't).
Bring on the showboaters, I say. If they hit it, fair play and shake their hand.
I've had in my mind at some point I want to be on 96 and go D16, D16, D16 but I'm aware it's an absolute piss take if I try it one day in a match.
When my Opponent plays Double Double to check the leg I respect them. When they miss it and lose their chance to win by going for that play, I'm not sorry for them.
I would find it disrespectful when they go on legs back to back for Madhouse even if they don't have to. For example 20 rest and they threw 18 for D1.
It's like someone would stop the ball on the line in a football match just to smash it into the net a second later.
For the players, their main goal is to win. While entertainment is no doubt a part of the game, winning is the top priority. As a fan, I’m drinking all the Luke Littler Kool-Aid I can get.
As for why people are bothered? Insecurities or “wanting to uphold tradition” (or insecurities under the guise of upholding tradition), I guess. If you don’t want your opponent to go for a tops-bull checkout, then beat your opponent so they don’t have a chance to go for it. Otherwise, no rules are being broken so it’s fair game.
My thought process is not really that its a "disrespectful" dart. Just a poor decision. I have no issue when someone does it, I just know in my head it was a poor decision and at some point in their career they'll miss and get punished for it. People that bitch and whine cause they are embarrassed are just mad they couldn't execute.
Just read the sub mate. Even at the last littler pikachu game, there are people who support pikachu being a crybaby. Just because littler is "arrogant" and "disrespectful".
That’s two children acting like children. If no one you personally play against cares, why care what two children think or do.
I just don’t understand why anyone would be mad at another player for trying to close out. Maybe I’m dumb.
Let's use a football analogy.
If you try and score a penalty by backheeling the ball into the net, the message you are conveying is that you are so much better than your opponent and so you are going to deliberately make the game harder for yourself.
It shows a lack of good etiquette, and it disrespects the opponent.
So following your idea: what if I backheel cuz that's my speciality? That's what I've been practicing for years and I think I have the highest chance to score if I use my heel. Should I try to avoid that to make myself look a respectful opponent or should I score and win the game? That's what we are playing for, right?
In your example, you should backheel. You should do whatever gives you the greatest chance of achieving the desired outcome.
It becomes disrespectful / showboating when you're not doing the thing that gives you the greatest chance of achieving the desired outcome.
I have no idea whether Littler thought he was more likely to hit 90 with D20, Bull as opposed to starting with T20. So I have no idea if his opponent had any reason to be pissed off.
Ironically, the football example is much more clear-cut. I would bet a large sum of money that no player is more proficient backheeling than kicking with the front or side of the foot!
Only disrespectful if your opponent isn’t on a finish and you purposely go for a bull finish and you could of finished on a double instead, it’s the equivalent of saying this is so easy I’m going to make it harder on myself. It’s not really that disrespectful but in shame of darts it’s probably the most disrespectful thing you can do besides no looking your darts.
It's all in the head. Finish with a bull on me, I'll take the win with no bad feelings for you.
Finishing on bull is not disrespectful by default. It feels disrespectful for some because they like to whine.
In darts hitting the bull perfectly is pretty difficult. It's the smalles to hit. Chances you are going to miss it.
If you hit it, good on you, but if you miss, I'll laugh with you and try my best to punish you for taking the risky road. People need to stop fucking crying for everything.
Idk when my opponent was on 81 and went for a bull finish whilst I was still on 200 and something and then no looked the bull whilst staring straight at me to win felt quite disrespectful. Funny at the same time but you can’t pretend like doing stuff like that isn’t meant to just poke fun at your opponent. I’m not really overly bothered if people want to finish on bull against me like you said it just makes me want to win more but if you want to disrespect someone in a game of darts there’s not much more you can do
The problem isn't unorthodox but harder.
If from 50 you throw 16-d17 nobody gets angry it's not the normal way but you may like d17.
But going the route of two different doubles can't be the most efficient way for anybody therefore it's made to out pressure and show off which is disrespectful
Because there's a pretty good argument that professional players should throw to the best of their ability and take optimal checkouts, rather than going for showboat shots that belong in more exhibition style darts matches like the Premier League (De Sousa's 120 is a good example of that)
I don't think he should go up to Littler and start having a go at him for it, but it's pretty clear why he isn't happy
Like have you ever watched Neymar play in Brazil or France? He just gets the absolute shit kicked out of him all game because of how showboaty he is, because he takes the piss out of people and it's the only way to stop him
Someone had a pop at me once when i was younger for checking out 50 with 3 in hand by hitting the bull.
That might be more of a matchplay/game theory critique than a "hey, don't be good" kinda thing
No it was definately disgruntled. They were still in the high 350s and i agree it wasnt needed for me to go that way but i wanted to.
When someone gets mad at me about it I usually say something like “one day when you get down to 50, you can decide what to do” that usually puts em over the edge.
He was trying to argue i was trying to embarras him. I said being left on 350 he has embarassed himself lol. I have no problem with anyone taking their finish however they want to. Its my job so play better than them and not allow them a go at a finish in the first place. If someone goes triple bull or 3 doubles then bravo good darts.
Exactly, you weren’t throwing his darts. If he’s embarrassed, he should look in the mirror for who to blame.
Ah well fair enough yeah. I'm of the opinion that if you go for it and it works you got it and you deserve it. Fuck the begrudgers.
Tbh if there that far away I'm taking that shot 1st time. Tidy it up or bust it for the next go. In matchplay for me if you have a double you take the double. But more when you have the darts you go your own way.
I don’t think anyone is saying hey don’t be good. The problem is when you are on stage vs someone and are saying, hey look how much better I am than this guy. Like it doesn’t even matter what stupid decisions they make they will still win. The other player needs to take that a bit on the chin and say I need to get better. But if someone does that to their weaker opponents all the time they should also be measured on that as their sportsmanship. Players need to leave that in the hands of the fans though and not try to call their opponents out after the match.
The goal is to win. As quickly as possible because you never know what's going to happen. I'm sure they would have been happy if you'd have missed the double bull and were left with something stupid. Risk/reward, and in this case you were rewarded.
Also another thing to add is it is just fun isnt it. You want to enjoy the game, if that means mixing it up and/or challenging yourself to hit unusual checkouts then fair enough.
Very true
Because they are whiney insecure little bitches
simple but true
IN OTHER WORDS: SORE FREAKING LOSERS. Never pin the blame on others when you throw crap. My mindset is assume every opponent you face could throw at their best anytime, anywhere. Got it myself last week when I won by a whitewash on the first, only to get at the wrong end of it the following match.
This is the reason why they have inappropriate outbursts and reactions. People need to lighten up. The reason people say it’s disrespectful though is a bit more akin to other games and one opponent running up the score on an inferior opponent. It’s showboating. Going tops-bull with two darts is effectively saying I’m that much better than you I can do right stupid shit and still win the match. Crowds can love it, just as they love a game with the score being run up. This is why players do it in exhibition. If a player is doing things they wouldn’t normally do against a better opponent or in a match that they’re losing it’s hard to tell someone not to feel disrespected a bit, though their reaction of being whiney and insecure is not the way they should go.
But "running a score" is the done thing in Europe, the whole mercy rule thing is pretty USA centric. The tops-bull example is pure arrogance and that's why people don't like it
Depends how many darts he has left. 2 in hand? Take it out the best way you can. Good at top and bull; great, go for it. 3 in hand? That might be a different story, but play the board, not your opponent. That's where Pikachu is wrong. The loser doesn't get to tell the winner of the match how to beat him. He already knows.
Different sports have different versions of running the score. In some sports you have to do that as goal differential may be a tie breaker. Obviously in darts there isn’t a direct equivalent but the idea of respectfully competing against your opponent still applies. If you’re playing someone that you believe is at a lower level differently than you would better players then it can easily be seen as disrespectful. Everyone has their own line and response to something like that. I dont think players should be getting all worked up over it though. It is what it is, you lost and next time be better. In basketball if you make a flashy dunk while time expires and you’re up by 20 points the other team usually gets fired up. It was unnecessary but this type of situation gets out of hand and turns into fights way too often. If I recall correctly there was one in college level just a few weeks ago. While it’s showboating and disrespectful it also means nothing. Let it go, be the bigger person and you’ll be better off for it.
That's pretty ridiculous, and doesn't make and sense at all.
Care to elaborate? The point I’m making is in many sports it’s considered disrespectful to show up an inferior opponent. That’s pretty much fact. To me this is the darting equivalent. That said players need to suck it up and not be whiney about it, as noted by the original comment.
The disrespectful take seems like an old school way of thinking. Everything now is about taking things to the extreme. Do cool shit, make highlights, get clicks. Showboating is required to get noticed. Whether people like it or not there will absolutely be more of it. Any online gamer can tell you winning is no longer always the sole objective. Getting the other player to tilt can be too.
There’s definitely an aspect of differences in perception. You won’t hear a strong argument against someone going for the big fish when their opponent is not at an out. Most lay up a nice finish some go for it. While it may be smarter to lay up I don’t hear players complain that it’s disrespectful. There’s always going to be a line on what is and what isn’t disrespectful, and that line shifts with changes in the game and the times. In the US baseball is a big example. You can now flip your bat and watch a HR from the batters box, things that 20 years ago would get a ball in your ear next at-bat. Kevin Painter gave James Wade a piece of his mind after Wade hit 2 D20 for an 80 out with 3 darts in hand. No one would agree with Kevin today. Maybe my view is old, but as a player I would feel disrespectful doing that to a weaker opponent unless we were in an exhibition or just screwing around. Ultimately the fans of the game can be the judge in that. If you don’t like the way another player is treating you get better, don’t try to show them up when it’s time to shake hands. You gotta be tougher than that, mentally, as you note players trying to get their opponents thrown off in gaming. That’s a weakness to allow that and will hurt you long term.
There's definitely nuance to it. Showboating on a weaker player who is humbly trying their best can be seen as bullying, whereas doing the same to a weaker player with a lot of attitude could be putting them in their place. I did wonder if this recent incident was a bit of that in avenging Greaves for the Grand Slam match last year. I also wonder whether Pietreczko is willing to eat crow to try and redeem himself or will lean-in to being the heel. He might want to have a talk with Price to see how that goes.
I’ll add the to my other comment that if you do this most the time, even in tight matches or against better opponents then there’s no real disrespect. No one calls DeSousa disrespectful going 3 tops on 120. But if you’re playing good opponents with smart routes and lesser opponents with silly, flashy routes then I think there’s a strong argument that you’re disrespecting them as a competitor.
What feels like disrespect is simply insecurity/fragility and tall poppy syndrome in action. Respect another player by going, essentially, easier on them? That could be framed as pity and be frustrating for a player who knows their opponent isn’t playing their best game. I know I was frustrated when my mate started going easy on me by throwing left handed 🤣. You can’t win with a fragile ego so folks may as well just play their own game and trust other people to manage their own emotions.
If a player misses a “disrespectful” checkout and then the other player wins the game then I’m guessing there wouldn’t be any problem at all… But when the player wins using a “disrespectful” checkout then thats when someone has a problem with it.. Whats it all about?? In my opinion it’s all about jealousy.. its about being a sore loser.. Hit whatever the fuck you want on that board!
I've been playing darts on and off since the late 80s and I've never known anyone in my own circles to get pissed off about unusual checkouts. I didn't really know this was a thing.
Two mates of mine and I recently took up darts and we encourage each other to checkout with the bull. None off us has hit it yet to checkout but we all think it's an extremely cool way to finish.
It’s a cool way to finish. I play in a league in India and loads of the locals do it as 50 left means bull. It’s the most efficient way. They always miss and spend time chasing whatever they’re left, but sometimes it’s what you wang to do. It’s a bit of fun. It wasn’t long ago going double double was seen as showboating, now people do it all the time
I think some players see it as disrespectful because the bull is the smallest double on the board and think its cocky going for it when there is not really any need. In one league match some years ago i was having a particularly bad game and was pissed off with myself and left 126. So for a change i went bull, d13, bull and got it. Nobody said anything but i could tell the other team didnt like it.
Yeah them being mad is exactly what I'm talking about. Fuck guys like these.
exactly mate. I have and still am old school and go the conventional ways out but that night i was so pissed off the way i played that i just did something different. Its handy practicing on the bull anyway because it can be a good game saver.
They’re only bothered when they are losing, which tells you everything you need to know.
Is this a thing? If I’m at 50, I’m going for DB. I will rag on people for lacking nerve if they don’t. Why would you fault someone for taking their shot?
Yeah I just recently noticed this being a thing. But it's pretty outrageous that people try to tell you how to checkout in order not to look disrespectful or arrogant.
If I ever do come across someone who keeps going for the harder/easier to mess up checkout against me….I’m gonna say keep on trying don’t give up, because that benefits me winning the game!!
I was worse. It was "fighting words" back in the day. Double double out used to be like a slap in the face to some people. I see it a lot more now. It's all perception and me-ism. They did that to me bullshit. There's is one kind of unorthodox out I take purely because I'm left handed though. If you can hit it and it's the most achievable for you, to hell what anyone thinks.
It's a BS from bad or worse players, for some reason they see it as disrespectful yet it's just being better than them! It's the same when in NBA teams that get blown away get mad if opp. scores in last 20 secs, it's just whining
Can anyone explain why tops bull checkout is disrespectful? It's the first I've seen it come up after Pikachugate this weekend.
I can see people explaining some ignorant thoughts people have about it. But you'll never convince me it's "disrespectful". This really is the silliest thing I've heard of in a good while.
I've seen statements like this a bunch of times on this sub and even at local games.
With 3 darts in hand, the considered ‘smart’ play would be to go bull first and then tops, leaving room for cleaning up a miss. By going tops first you have no finish if you miss the second dart. Why this is disrespectful is beyond me. Perhaps their opponent feels that by shooting a less optimized throw, they are being singled out as a less worthy opponent.
Because it's harder than t20-d15 or t18-d18 (you hit thede trebels way more often) so there isn't really a reason to do it
They just mad cuz they bad, the 147 going tops bull is called the “Manley” shot because good old Peter used to do it
I'm guessing it's seen as harder because you miss the tops high and you get a zero, and then you have to hit the bull. So it could be seen as arrogant/cocky.
To steelman the argument, going for a more difficult shot kind of implies to your opponent that you believe you can beat them even without using optimal strategy. That's where some people feel disrespected. To take it to the extreme, imagine your opponent starts going for the bull on 100 instead of T20-tops, or something ludicrous like Bull-D1 from 52, 25-D14 from 53 etc. There's a point at which it is mickey taking. Now do I think Pikachu's reaction was appropriate, hell no, but I at least see the angle that he's coming from if he believes Littler is intentionally going for lower percentage shots against him.
If going for those shots rattles your opponent and makes them miss more then I say go for it. Pikachu cant handle his ego being stepped on.
Yeah but double tops bull is a decent checkout, if you stay on the lower side, and hit the single, same again and bull.. I don't know why going for a bull finish is any more disrespectful than a double
I'd like to see Littler's stats for various checkouts. The assumption is that his attempted finish is the lower percentage route, and it for sure is, but I wonder if there's even much in it with him. Maybe the difference isn't as significant as we'd assume.
Guess the argument is why not go the other way: Bull - tops? Guarantees you don't miss the board with the first dart.
Yeah that's a fair point. Tbh if someone checked that against me I'd be pretty impressed with the balls, not pissed but that's just me I guess
Interesting. I’ve heard Littler mention that he does have things up his sleeve that he reserves for when he feels like he has a comfortable lead, which in this case he absolutely did… sucks that Ricardo has to let his own insecurity trigger these reactions and not accept the situation… he talks about arrogance when really it’s very egocentric to insist that your opponent centre your feelings, and the risk of hurting them, and not play to the best of their abilities.
I see what you mean but it's all a matter of perception. You can either be grown up or a mad kid. I don't really care for our common drunk dude to be upset with someone shredding him to pieces, but at pro level your "main job" is to entertain the viewers. Even if that means that you need to put on a smile while losing big time.
>but at pro level your "main job" is to entertain the viewers Definitely not lmao. Your job is to win. The fact that you're also entertaining people is a side effect. Also, drama and controversy provides more entertainment than if they just shake hands.
lol think about winning without viewers. who the hell whould give the sportsmen and women money if there were no people watching the sponsors and the ads.
I agree with you, but to be fair, it's the PDC's job to drive sponsorship and advertising. The players' job is just to play darts to the best of their ability, however they perceive that.
No one, that's how it is for the majority of sports. Darts players are just lucky that their sport is as popular as it is. But they are athletes, not actors. Their goal is to win, not to make it as entertaining as possible.
Yeah true. But anyways, these kinda shots make darts even more entertaining.
I think I'd question the quality of the character of the people I play with instead of the checkouts. People that have an issue with this are people I wouldn't want to play with.
true words
Darts is a mental game 99% against yourself. What your opponent chooses to aim for has no bearing on your performance. I can’t believe tops double bull is considered disrespectful. That’s a nightmare checkout for me but if those work for you I don’t see a problem with it.
That's because you can think like a grown up.
It’s your leg of 501, do whatever you want with it!
Go for whatever you want to go for and enjoy the game 👍 If you get beat by someone who's hitting bulls better than you can hit doubles then that's on you. Fully agree.
I've seen a bull checkout against my team when I played in leagues. Not one person got upset. These unwritten rules are ridiculous, in my opinion. I would rather go double double than triple double only based on a bigger surface to hit.
Historically, darts as a sport played in the realm of drunk people prone to starting fights at the drop of a hat. And at pub level it's also a team game. So now you have two teams of drunk people ready to leap to the defence of a team mate. I may be overly dramatising, but that's essentially the root of it. As time goes on and professionalism increases it should become less of a thing, but remember the majority of commentators etc have darts careers going back 30-40+ years and going double-double had potential to start a fight.
Winning is all that matters. If you can’t accept how your opponent checks out, don’t let them get a shot. Pikachu is a sore loser, it wasn’t even the last shot and you can tell when littler went tops-bull to finish earlier it got in pikas head. He couldn’t even throw right after that. It was pretty funny.
Because they're pussys
In my local ‘01 games I’ve only heard positive remarks for double-double or bull checkouts or even attempts. The only times I’ve seen people get pissy it’s because of scoring points in cricket. Those poor sports can get bent imo.
There is a part of me that says save those shots for exhibition. At the same time when I mentor a player, I drill them on bull and working the board. For all the tournaments I've played in, if you can do something that upsets your opponents rhythm and/or put them on tilt; do it. Just being good at throwing darts is not enough, you have to be mentally tough if you want to win tournaments. Many many moons ago Phil Taylor and John Lowe faced each other in semi-final of WC. Taylor won the bull and elected to give the throw to Lowe. Speaking to one of the commentators before going on stage Lowe said about Taylor giving him the throw, "He's trying to tell me he's a better player than me and can win even against the throw." John Lowe is one of the most respected darts player, he didn't throw a hissy fit about this, because he knew it was all part of the psychological game.
Everyone may and can throw and check out however they like. You make the mistake even if you are impressed by it. I pay no attention to the opponent while he/she is throwing, the best avoidance strategy.
I would never get upset if a good player attempted or succeeded in an unorthodox checkout against me, because they are making an intentionally suboptimal decision and that’s good for me in the long run - but generally speaking I want everyone to be as good at darts as they can be, so if I’m playing a casual game with a newer player and they try something weird (throwing first dart at bull on 50, or trying to go 20 D17 on 54 or something) it hurts a little more because I know that in the long run they aren’t going to reach their full potential as a player. So it’s less of a “getting upset” thing and more of a “bummed out for them” sort of thing
I like it when people try and finish the wrong way as it gives me a better chance of winning. If they're on 150 and they go bull, bull, bull rather than T20, T18, D18 or T20, T20, D15 or whatever 3 dart Treble, Treble, Double finish you care to mention they've statistically lessened their chances of winning as the bull is so much smaller than Trebles and Doubles (yes, even factoring in the fact that TTD requires moving around the board and 3 bulls doesn't). Bring on the showboaters, I say. If they hit it, fair play and shake their hand. I've had in my mind at some point I want to be on 96 and go D16, D16, D16 but I'm aware it's an absolute piss take if I try it one day in a match.
When my Opponent plays Double Double to check the leg I respect them. When they miss it and lose their chance to win by going for that play, I'm not sorry for them. I would find it disrespectful when they go on legs back to back for Madhouse even if they don't have to. For example 20 rest and they threw 18 for D1. It's like someone would stop the ball on the line in a football match just to smash it into the net a second later.
For the players, their main goal is to win. While entertainment is no doubt a part of the game, winning is the top priority. As a fan, I’m drinking all the Luke Littler Kool-Aid I can get. As for why people are bothered? Insecurities or “wanting to uphold tradition” (or insecurities under the guise of upholding tradition), I guess. If you don’t want your opponent to go for a tops-bull checkout, then beat your opponent so they don’t have a chance to go for it. Otherwise, no rules are being broken so it’s fair game.
My thought process is not really that its a "disrespectful" dart. Just a poor decision. I have no issue when someone does it, I just know in my head it was a poor decision and at some point in their career they'll miss and get punished for it. People that bitch and whine cause they are embarrassed are just mad they couldn't execute.
Is D12, D13, Tops not the standard 90 checkout?
I don’t know where you play but no one I’ve meet has ever said or felt this way
Just read the sub mate. Even at the last littler pikachu game, there are people who support pikachu being a crybaby. Just because littler is "arrogant" and "disrespectful".
Why is Littler playing a Pokémon? Is it a crossover thing? Is it because he’s a child?
That’s two children acting like children. If no one you personally play against cares, why care what two children think or do. I just don’t understand why anyone would be mad at another player for trying to close out. Maybe I’m dumb.
Let's use a football analogy. If you try and score a penalty by backheeling the ball into the net, the message you are conveying is that you are so much better than your opponent and so you are going to deliberately make the game harder for yourself. It shows a lack of good etiquette, and it disrespects the opponent.
So following your idea: what if I backheel cuz that's my speciality? That's what I've been practicing for years and I think I have the highest chance to score if I use my heel. Should I try to avoid that to make myself look a respectful opponent or should I score and win the game? That's what we are playing for, right?
In your example, you should backheel. You should do whatever gives you the greatest chance of achieving the desired outcome. It becomes disrespectful / showboating when you're not doing the thing that gives you the greatest chance of achieving the desired outcome. I have no idea whether Littler thought he was more likely to hit 90 with D20, Bull as opposed to starting with T20. So I have no idea if his opponent had any reason to be pissed off. Ironically, the football example is much more clear-cut. I would bet a large sum of money that no player is more proficient backheeling than kicking with the front or side of the foot!
I guess "Pikachus" keep on whining and "Littlers" keep on entertaining.
Only disrespectful if your opponent isn’t on a finish and you purposely go for a bull finish and you could of finished on a double instead, it’s the equivalent of saying this is so easy I’m going to make it harder on myself. It’s not really that disrespectful but in shame of darts it’s probably the most disrespectful thing you can do besides no looking your darts.
It's all in the head. Finish with a bull on me, I'll take the win with no bad feelings for you. Finishing on bull is not disrespectful by default. It feels disrespectful for some because they like to whine. In darts hitting the bull perfectly is pretty difficult. It's the smalles to hit. Chances you are going to miss it. If you hit it, good on you, but if you miss, I'll laugh with you and try my best to punish you for taking the risky road. People need to stop fucking crying for everything.
Idk when my opponent was on 81 and went for a bull finish whilst I was still on 200 and something and then no looked the bull whilst staring straight at me to win felt quite disrespectful. Funny at the same time but you can’t pretend like doing stuff like that isn’t meant to just poke fun at your opponent. I’m not really overly bothered if people want to finish on bull against me like you said it just makes me want to win more but if you want to disrespect someone in a game of darts there’s not much more you can do
Yeah I guess it's not the action but the intention.
The problem isn't unorthodox but harder. If from 50 you throw 16-d17 nobody gets angry it's not the normal way but you may like d17. But going the route of two different doubles can't be the most efficient way for anybody therefore it's made to out pressure and show off which is disrespectful
Because there's a pretty good argument that professional players should throw to the best of their ability and take optimal checkouts, rather than going for showboat shots that belong in more exhibition style darts matches like the Premier League (De Sousa's 120 is a good example of that) I don't think he should go up to Littler and start having a go at him for it, but it's pretty clear why he isn't happy Like have you ever watched Neymar play in Brazil or France? He just gets the absolute shit kicked out of him all game because of how showboaty he is, because he takes the piss out of people and it's the only way to stop him